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Pistons run out of gas in entertainingly competitive loss to Warriors

Golden State Warriors 104 Final

Recap | Box Score

96 Detroit Pistons
Greg Monroe, PF Shot Chart 40 MIN | 8-20 FG | 7-9 FT | 8 REB | 1 AST | 1 STL | 0 BLK | 0 TO | 23 PTS | -8Monroe got all the shots he wanted tonight… but he was met with multiple defenders every time. Finishing near the rim has always been an issue for him, and he just played soft near the rim tonight. It’s funny, historically, some of Monroe’s best night’s as a pro came against Andrew Bogut when he was in Milwaukee.

Josh Smith, SF Shot Chart 39 MIN | 9-24 FG | 0-3 FT | 11 REB | 7 AST | 1 STL | 1 BLK | 3 TO | 18 PTS | -6We literally saw both versions of Smith — Josh the Distributor and Josh the Clanker of Jumpers. He was great rebounding and distributing, obviously a plus, but he had chances in the post late (albeit after dribbling 10,000 times first) and couldn’t finish. His defense on Andre Igoudala — he went 0-for-7 in the second half — was good to see, though Igoudala did a number on him defensively.

Kyle Singler, SF Shot Chart 44 MIN | 7-11 FG | 2-2 FT | 3 REB | 2 AST | 1 STL | 2 BLK | 0 TO | 18 PTS | -6Let’s just get the baptism out of the way now.

You back? Ready? It’s too bad that play is going to shade a very strong night from Singler. He’s starting to really embrace his role as the starting lineup’s shooter, and his play was a catalyst for the 37-point first quarter. Here’s a player comparison for y’all to chew on tonight while you stew.

Andre Drummond, C Shot Chart 25 MIN | 5-8 FG | 1-2 FT | 9 REB | 0 AST | 0 STL | 3 BLK | 2 TO | 11 PTS | +2Jermaine O’Neal circa 2004 schooled Drummond with smart low-post scoring throughout the evening. Really, everyone who saw front court minutes should lose points for O’Neal’s 16 point, 10 rebound effort. He missed twice, TWICE! Anyways, Drummond wasn’t used much offensively — despite flashing in the post a number of times — and he wasn’t a part of Pistons shocking fourth-quarter drought.

Brandon Jennings, PG Shot Chart 37 MIN | 4-13 FG | 1-1 FT | 4 REB | 10 AST | 2 STL | 0 BLK | 0 TO | 11 PTS | -6When Josh Smith shoots a jumper, I cringe, but I think I cringe more when Jennings takes that 4-foot step back jumper right in front of the 3-point line. I can roll with 10 assists and zero turnovers any day of the week though. It’s just zero assists in the fourth quarter is rough. The offense continues to stagnate into continuous isolation plays, and the remedy for that lies in Jennings’ hands as the point guard.

Jonas Jerebko, PF Shot Chart 10 MIN | 1-2 FG | 0-0 FT | 3 REB | 0 AST | 1 STL | 0 BLK | 1 TO | 2 PTS | -4Jerebko’s effort is there, which you can’t get on much. He’s really tuned down the wild jump shooting as well, and as long as his shot selection continues to improve, he’ll continue to be a serviceable-enough player for those 10-12 minutes he plays.

Will Bynum, PG Shot Chart 16 MIN | 4-11 FG | 0-0 FT | 3 REB | 4 AST | 0 STL | 0 BLK | 2 TO | 8 PTS | -4Bynum did a nice job taking control midway through the second quarter, but he was so up and down otherwise. It’s crazy how fast Bynum goes from WMFB to MF, WB sometimes. He took two or three blah long jumpers in the fourth quarter, which was also when we saw a Jennings-Bynum lineup. Sounds more fun than it was after they scored six points in five minutes.

Kentavious Caldwell-Pope, SG Shot Chart 2 MIN | 0-0 FG | 0-0 FT | 0 REB | 0 AST | 0 STL | 0 BLK | 0 TO | 0 PTS | 0Don’t remember seeing KCP? That’s ok, neither do I. His two minutes came during Tom Izzo’s “I LOVE DRAYMOND GREEN” interview, so Caldwell-Pope’s so-so play was hidden. He made a nice recovery after getting beat off the dribble — at least he’s trying?

Rodney Stuckey, SG Shot Chart 26 MIN | 2-10 FG | 1-1 FT | 4 REB | 2 AST | 1 STL | 0 BLK | 0 TO | 5 PTS | -8Woof. Contract Year Rodney Stuckey has definitely hit a wall, and this is just his latest rough shooting night. He only took three shots in the second half. Maybe he realized he was off, so good. But, it’s also bad because when he doesn’t shoot he’s not really worth playing.

John Loyer
I feel for Loyer. Imagine how frustrating it must be for Joe Dumars to have to watch his team with one shooter get pelted with 3-pointers by good teams on nights like this. Loyer must feel the same because there ain’t a whole lot he can do. They hung with a really good team, and he deserves credit for that. I just think shooting is the biggest part of the Pistons’ issue in the fourth quarter — teams just let them shoot themselves out of a lead. Loyer’s trying new things with giving Bynum more responsibility in the fourth quarter to add another creator, but there’s only so much you can do when you lack shooting; which the Warriors have no shortage of.

97 Comments

  • Feb 24, 201410:56 pm
    by Nathan

    Reply

    Who are the players in the player comparison in the Singler synopsis?  Singler looked great all night.  Lots of really good nBA players get dunked on each week in the league.  Just a few weeks back Singler dunked pretty hard on Kenneth Faried.

    • Feb 25, 20148:50 am
      by hoophabit

      Reply

      I’m not sure what the point was of linking to that dunk.  From the look of the play it didn’t appear it was Singler’s man.  What, another BK and D’Andre Jordan type play where the guy who actually tried to do something about it gets run down while the rest of the “no effort” crew gets a pass  Singler isn’t great, but he plays smart and hard.  A little more of that and this team wouldn’t be so horrible.
      Also, how in the h**l does Monroe get no call on the play where the wonderful Draymond Green ends up on the floor?  I know, he hollers “And1″ too much, so all fouls should be ignored?  Bad teams get hosed, and welcome to the NBA.

    • Feb 25, 20149:12 am
      by CNA5

      Reply

      That would be comparing 2nd round pick and second year player Kyle Singler to former lottery pick and second year player Harrison Barnes.
       
       

      • Feb 25, 20143:24 pm
        by Ryank

        Reply

        Yeah, because stats are so useful when comparing players who don’t fill the same role.  

        • Feb 25, 20144:20 pm
          by oats

          Reply

          Singler and Barnes are both wing players who are asked to do more or less the same stuff. Even if they weren’t doing the same thing, and these two are, stats are still a pretty sound way of figuring out who is playing better. You just have to look at how well they are accomplishing their role on a team and then comparing those grades against each other.

  • Feb 24, 201411:05 pm
    by Nick N

    Reply

    Not an excuse but some of the worst damn officiating I ever saw. On both sides smh

  • Feb 24, 201411:06 pm
    by James

    Reply

    Wow. On a team with guys making Major Loot and expecting Major Loot next year, the best player on the floor was a guy who went over seas after being drafted 2-3 yrs ago to get his game honed enough to play in the NBA? SHOCKING!

  • Feb 24, 201411:11 pm
    by Brandon Knight

    Reply

    Why sit Drummond in the fourth quarter? This Loyer guy is worst than Cheeks!

    • Feb 25, 201410:35 am
      by Brady Fredericksen

      Reply

      they scored 13 points and he wasn’t playing defense with five fouls. In order for Loyer to try his Bynum-Jennings backcourt, they needed to bench one big, so they benched Drummond for the better offensive guys.

  • Feb 24, 201411:20 pm
    by Das Gibb

    Reply

    Player A is Harrison Barnes and Player B is Kyle Singler
     

    • Feb 24, 201411:40 pm
      by oats

      Reply

      Yep. Singler is scoring as much per minute as Barnes, but doing it with fewer shots. Kyle Singler is playing better basketball than Harrison Barnes right now.

      • Feb 25, 201412:00 am
        by naz51j

        Reply

        unfortunately, if that’s true of singler, neither team should be at all thrilled with their player, because barnes really has been awful most of this season.  as a W’s fan…good luck with your guy.

        • Feb 25, 201411:41 am
          by Huddy

          Reply

          Except one team spent the 7th overall pick for that production and one spent the 33rd overall pick for that production.  Singler has not been underwhelming for a 2nd round pick.  He plays smart and has been shooting well.  He isn’t a starting level player, but a solid role player is a good find at 33. 

        • Feb 25, 20144:48 pm
          by jerrific

          Reply

          I don’t think second round players can be disappointing since by definition most aren’t expected to stick in the NBA. Singler is moderately successful considering when he was drafted.  

    • Feb 24, 201411:41 pm
      by gmehl

      Reply

      Yep I think your right. I’m sure this is Dan’s way of saying why trade Moose for Barnes when we already have a comparable player on the team already in Singler.

  • Feb 24, 201411:25 pm
    by Jodi aka "The Guru"

    Reply

    We’ll continue to lose games as long as we give Singler big minutes. Bynum is coming up next.

    • Feb 24, 201411:36 pm
      by Smitty

      Reply

      We’ll continue to lose games with Joe D as Gm, and Brandon Jennings as our point guard. Also with Smoove at Sf. Junk Junk JUNK!!!! Hopefully we do keep losing anyways.

      • Feb 25, 20149:13 am
        by Patti #1

        Reply

        Jennings is always the one that has to deal with Smith playing the SF position.  

    • Feb 24, 201411:49 pm
      by oats

      Reply

      If you are talking about Singler playing 40+ minutes, then yes that is a problem. He’s playing like a guy that should be in the 20-30 minute range though, which is reasonably big minutes.

    • Feb 25, 201410:33 am
      by Brady Fredericksen

      Reply

      Is Singler playing a lot really the reason they’re losing? He’s limited defensively, but there are surely other factors in the losing. Singler is literally the only shooter on the roster, he kind of has to play a lot.

      • Feb 25, 201411:38 am
        by domnick

        Reply

        singler should be traded

    • Feb 25, 20143:31 pm
      by Nathan

      Reply

      Singler playing big minutes is the one consistent reason they are in games.  He is the most consistent player overall.  His effort is always 100% and he rarely takes a bad shot.  He makes threes at a great rate as a starter and he has been finishing at the rim quite well of late.  The two guards are killing singler even though he is obviously not quick enough to defend the spot.  He isn’t merely a hustle player either.  He can do everything and he plays smart.  What team wouldn’t want that.  Hell if Fifth year nba starter Jennings had anywhere near the smarts of Singler this team would be in the sixth spot.  The guys who have the ball the most on this team consistently make poor decisions.  Bynum is playing better than jennings lately and he seems to have chemistry with most guys he plays with.  It might be too late for this team.  

      • Feb 25, 201410:37 pm
        by frankie d

        Reply

        Agree 110%. 
        I really and truly dont get the hate singler inspires.
        As a former detroiter an u-m grad who lives in oregon and hated singler in high school and college i still appreciate what he brings to the court.
        If only joe d had been smart enough to realize he had his SFs in singler and middleton this season would have turned out much differently.
        A guy like singler could be the 4th or 5th best player on a very good playoff team.  I just hope he ultimately gets a chance to fill that role.

        • Feb 26, 201412:00 pm
          by sebastian

          Reply

          frankie d., ole wise sage, Singler is an 8th or 9th-man on a competing NBA caliber team. If he is anywhere near a teams’ 4th or 5th best player, then that team (OUR Pistons) are, then, not a playoff caliber team.

  • Feb 24, 201411:53 pm
    by Parsons

    Reply

    I have a question, are we owned by Tom Gores or Platinum Equity? Also if the latter how many teams are owned by a business and not a person? Can that even happen? Just curious.

    • Feb 24, 201411:56 pm
      by Smitty

      Reply

      Right now this team is getting OWNED by every other team.

  • Feb 25, 201412:01 am
    by Sleep doc

    Reply

    Helter…skelter….trap every possession that you make a shot and keep driving to the rim or getting open threes.  Drive the possessions through the roof.  
    This team has no shooters other than singler but I offer that if they play a faster pace they will either shoot threes or drive to the rim.   i would encourage them to do that.   
     

  • Feb 25, 20141:21 am
    by Ken

    Reply

    There were people on that detroitbadboys.com blog earlier today arguing that Monroe should get 20 shots per game because he’s our most efficient scorer. Its ironic that he got exactly 20 tonight, and to no surprise was 40% FG lol
     
    Its easy to applaud Monroe’s FG% when he’s only taking 11 safe shots per game all within his comfort zone, but he’s not a 20 shots per game caliber player, and if he started taking that many consistently his FG% would be no better than Smith or Jennings.
     
    I did like seeing him make two jumpshots though and he has been playing with a lot more passion/effort all around lately. But yeah he’s not someone you want taking this many shots regularly. 
     
     

    • Feb 25, 201410:35 am
      by JYD for Life

      Reply

      He should get 20 shots per game if you’re comparing him to Smith. 
       
      GS really packed the paint and Monroe was met with a lot of double teams and if they didn’t fully double him, their perimeter guys were sagging off and pestering him.  
      I wouldn’t use this game as your argument against giving Monroe more touches. 
       
       

    • Feb 25, 201410:50 am
      by Georgio

      Reply

      It’s one game dude and hopefully all of his shot are “within his comfort zone”.  Bogut and O’Neil are long defenders and they gave Monroe some trouble but he’s a 50% shooter. Whether he should take 20 shots per game depends on the defense and the defender. Against NO he was dominate so feed him, if he has a long athletic defender on him maybe not. One game does not your point make. 

    • Feb 25, 201411:47 am
      by Huddy

      Reply

      “safe shots” is an interesting way to put it.  He takes shots blanketed in the D all the time.  He  constantly shoots more contested shots because he isn’t comfortable with his jump shot.  40% isn’t ok, but it is one game.  We have a career of games to show why Jennings and Smith shouldn’t be taking 15+ shots a game.

    • Feb 25, 20143:22 pm
      by oats

      Reply

      I wouldn’t want Monroe at 20 on a nightly basis, but very few players should take 20 a game. We’re talking Durant, Melo, maybe Aldridge with the way he’s playing this year, and that’s pretty much it really. All that said, I would like to see him closer to that 15 shot range that Smith and Jennings are at.

    • Feb 25, 20146:28 pm
      by Ken

      Reply

      Ok, if its just one game, lets see if he gets 20 shots again next game and see what happens…
       
      My prediction: Monroe will not stay a 50% shooter taking 20 shots per game.
       
      Right now there’s only 3 players in the league taking more than 20 per game (Durant, Melo, LMA) and only Durant is better than 50%. In fact there are only 10 players in the league taking more than 17 per game, and of those 10 only LeBron and Durant are above 50%. 
       
      So Monroe likely couldn’t even keep his 50% avg at 17 per game, let alone 20. Unless you think he’s as good of an offensive player than LeBron/Durant.
       
      For the record, I wasn’t saying this game was a case against Monroe getting more shots. I’m saying its a case against him getting 20 shots. I agree that he could be getting more than the 11 per game he currently takes. But I think 12 per game is probably his maximum to where he can still convert that 50% mark. Just look at his career stats if you don’t believe me. He got 13 per game last year and his % went to 48%. The year before he got 12 and this year he got 11 and both were above 50%. 

      • Feb 25, 20149:59 pm
        by oats

        Reply

        You’re missing something really important. Most guys taking 17 a game play a more perimeter oriented game than Monroe. It’s much easier to shoot 50% if a guy rarely takes shot outside of 8′ from the basket. So Monroe getting to 50% wouldn’t require him to be in the Durant/Oden range.
         
        As for that 12 mark, you are putting a lot of stock in failing to hit the 50% mark by only 2% in only one year. Shooting percentages tend to fluctuate, and if that was just a slightly poor shooting year he should be capable of shooting 50% while taking 13 a game. It’s also assuming that Monroe has not made any improvements in his game at all since last year, although his improvements could easily be countered by Detroit having even worse spacing than last year. It’s really not safe to conclude that he has a cap at 12 shots a game though. That said, I do suspect that 17 shots a game is still beyond what he is capable of doing efficiently right now.

  • Feb 25, 20144:14 am
    by pistons morbund

    Reply

    Sounds like a max player to me!!!!!!I hear tanks.

  • Feb 25, 20144:51 am
    by @GPMasters

    Reply

    I can live with these entertaining losses for the rest of the season. Hold on #8 pick, we are coming to save you from those nasty, scratchy Bobcats!!

  • Feb 25, 20145:05 am
    by Tiko

    Reply

    I still hope we get Hollins in the offseason after Dumars steps down. 

    • Feb 25, 20147:15 am
      by gmehl

      Reply

      Something about Hollins reminds me of Ice Cubes old man in the movie Friday.

      • Feb 25, 20149:17 pm
        by Ken

        Reply

        Yes!!!!
         
        I’ve always thought that too. 

  • Feb 25, 20148:55 am
    by something

    Reply

    Anyone else seen Tom Izzo during breaks?

    • Feb 25, 201410:36 am
      by JYD for Life

      Reply

      yes…he was there because he’s close with Draymond Green.  
       
       

      • Feb 25, 20149:20 pm
        by Ken

        Reply

        Or it was a convenient way for him to come to a game and scout the team he might be taking over, and have the Green excuse built-in for anyone questioning why he was there.
         
        Did he come to Green’s game last year? If he did, did he sit in Gores seats?
         
        I’ve seen Izzo at games over the years, but don’t think he’s ever sat courtside. That means something imo.

        • Feb 25, 201410:02 pm
          by oats

          Reply

          It means that Gores is a Michigan St. alum. I think it is a stretch to read more into it than that.

        • Feb 25, 201410:42 pm
          by Huddy

          Reply

          Izzo doesn’t have the type of career one puts together to move on and become an NBA head coach.  He isn’t simply turning a team aroujd or putting together some impressive seasons, he formed a culture and made himself a staple at MSU.  All the things that make people think he would be a good NbA head coach are true.  But just like coach K at Duke there is a big difference between being successful and becoming a set piece of an organization or college.  He is elite and loved and as true as it is that the NBA is the next level i think Izzo would find it more fulfilling to be remembered forever at MSU than to take a gamble at coacjing a team that would be lucku to make the playoffs in the east.

        • Feb 25, 201410:44 pm
          by Huddy

          Reply

          Also if Gores thinks seats at a pistons game are a perk to entice a coaching prospect our coaching search is hopeless.

  • Feb 25, 20149:32 am
    by Dave

    Reply

    I’ll defend Josh Smith a little bit this time around and say he deserves a higher grade than C+. Yes, he missed too many shots, but at least a bunch of those were post-ups and close range shots we want him to take. Also, 11 boards and 7 assists to go with 18 points, while shutting down AI, earns him probably a B+ from me.
    Fairly entertaining loss with a predictable 4th quarter collapse (though the one play with us down 5 where Moose didn’t get a whistle then Singler got a ticky-tack call against him on the rebound was the game changer. Terrible whistles for the Pistons both ways there.
     

    • Feb 25, 201410:42 am
      by JYD for Life

      Reply

      The officiating was rough, but Moose will not command respect from them until he quits yelling “AND 1″ after every play down low.  
       
      He will get there…the post above about not giving him 20 shots a game is way off.  Monroe’s free throw shooting was what stood out to me.   7 of 9 is solid for a big.  8/20 from the field is not great, but if you count how many no calls there were, it might not be that bad.    
      He should be shooting 20 shots before Smith does.   I would cap Smith at 12 shots per game and force him to never shoot outside of 15 feet.   He should never try to create off the dribble unless the guy guarding him is a 7 footer.  

  • Feb 25, 201410:34 am
    by Parsons

    Reply

    Jimmer Fredette was bought out of his contract. He would be a great addition to this team. I hope we sign him. I hope he even considers us. Him and Granger I doubt would consider us an option but we definitely need them.

    • Feb 25, 201410:38 am
      by JYD for Life

      Reply

      Both would be worth taking a shot with.  
      Granger wants a contender though.  I think he knows he’s done.  
      Jimmer would be really valuable for us off the bench (Hell, at this point, maybe even starting in place of Jennings).  
      I really hope they submit a waiver request for him…don’t wait for a Playoff team to swoop in and sign him on the cheap after he clears waivers. 
       
       

    • Feb 25, 201411:22 am
      by JYD for Life

      Reply

      with 15 guys already on the roster, there’s almost no chance we pick him up.  
      Unless they figure out a buyout with CV or waive Siva.  
       

      • Feb 25, 201411:46 am
        by Parsons

        Reply

        or Mitchell or Chauncey or Datome or Jerebko. I think if we wanted there are guys on this roster that we could go on without. It would be hard without CV or Datome but I’m sure we could go on. I know our GM is a horder but even he has to know Jimmer Fredette is better than Siva, Chauncey, or CV. Thats my top 3 that we could drop today and no one would even notice. I know no one wants to drop Chauncey but we’re trying to win (I think) we can’t let personal attachments get in the way of improvement. I know a buyout isn’t easy so that’s why Siva or Chauncey might end up our best options. Plus dropping CV for Jimmer Fredette gives us 5 PGs. 6 counting Stuckey.

        • Feb 25, 20142:00 pm
          by JYD for Life

          Reply

          Yeah, Datome and Jerebko won’t happen…Mitchell maybe.  
          Chauncey is almost openly admitting he’s done.  I see him coming back for the last few weeks of the season and playing a few minutes here and there.  
          He’s certainly here for another reason…It will be great to transition him into the front office in some capacity.  With Joe likely moving on, we need a solid presence who can work with players.   He’s widely considered “The Mayor” in the league, so it wouldn’t be bad having that guy around.  
          He’s got a team option for next year, so he won’t be on the player payroll.  
           
           

          • Feb 25, 20143:35 pm
            by oats

            It’d be really dumb to drop Mitchell. He’s actually got a clear cut NBA skill, namely his ridiculous athleticism. That alone makes him a way better prospect than Siva. I’d probably prefer to buy out CV, but Parsons is right about the nature of buyouts making that less likely.

          • Feb 25, 20148:01 pm
            by Parsons

            How many roster spots are you willing to waste? Siva, Mitchell, and KCP are rookies. Jerebko and Datome have a year left. Chauncey has sentimental value. CV is useless. Bynum and Harrilson are just OK. Jimmer would help floor spacing. Caron Butler might reach a buyout soon. I was hoping Jan Vesely would too but I doubt it now. I’m not saying release everyone but CV or Siva for Jimmer or Orlando Johnson would add depth to our team without giving up our youth, flexibility, or anything of value really. Mitchell would probably be a last resort because your right he actually looks like he could be valuable soon. Since Jerebko sucks its a wonder why Mitchell hasn’t gotten an opportunity now. Its not like he could be worse truthfully. I just think right now we should be finding ways to add depth and this is the best way to me.

          • Feb 25, 201410:07 pm
            by oats

            Guys with more than one year left don’t get bought out often. It’s more money, and I think I remember them counting against next year’s cap total even after the buyout. It makes more sense to let a lot of those guys hit the final year and hope their expiring deals prove useful. On top of that, only 9 guys should really be in a rotation anyways so there are 6 roster spots that you shouldn’t expect anything from on any given team. I see 2 guys that are worth dumping to take a flyer on a buyout player, and that’s CV and Siva.

        • Feb 25, 20143:33 pm
          by Nathan

          Reply

          You’ve got to be kidding me about Jimmer Fredette.  The guy can shoot but he is like a hobbit compared to most NBA players.  First round picks that get cut after two or three years of never impressing usually are certified garbage.  

          • Feb 25, 20143:58 pm
            by oats

            I know stats from 11 minutes a game are hard to read too much into, but Jimmer has been really good in those 11 minutes. He’s putting up 18.7 points per 36 minutes, which is pretty close to the 19 points per 36 minutes that Stuckey is putting up. He’s also shooting lights out, including 49% on 3s. He looks like a rotation piece at least, and his best skill fills a major area of need for Detroit. He’s also got an outside chance of turning into a really good 6th man. Sacramento gave up on him too soon, and partially because it was hard to find a use for him with their oddly constructed roster that features a 5’9″ PG playing 34 minutes a night. Adding a 6’2″ guy that should be playing SG on offense to that back court is just really tough to do. Detroit meanwhile could pair him with Stuckey off the bench, and he’d give the bench the shooter it currently lacks with Singler in the starting lineup.

          • Feb 25, 20148:46 pm
            by frankie d

            Fredette can shoot.  His numbers say that pretty conclusively.  Good 3 point shooting is something the team desperately needs.
            Anyone who criticizes jimmer about his size and/or defense better be ready to say similarly derogatory things about jennings.  There is no worse defender than jennings in the entire league.  He is putrid.
            If the team can put jennings on the court with his 37% shooting, non-defending a@@,  surely it can afford to put a much better shooter like fredette out there.

          • Feb 25, 20149:23 pm
            by Tim Thielke

            frankie d, Jennings is a minus defender. But to suggest he is the worst in the league is blatantly absurd. That distinction probably belongs to Harden, but he is merely one of many who are significantly worse than Jennings on that end.

          • Feb 26, 20142:43 pm
            by frankie d

            Lol!  I wont quibble about whether he is the worst or one of the worst.  It is bad enough that most agree that he is in the discussion.
            (I actually meant to focus on PGs, but no matter…)
            Bottom line is that he is really bad and hurts the team immensely with his putrid defense.
            Where he ranks as far as hirrid defenders is not that important, imho.  I was simply noting that tbe team would not suffer much, relatively, by bringing in another bad defender like jimmer.  And the team would mist likely benefit from jimmer’s superior shooting and the fact that he is nowhere near the ballhog.
            I really dont think jennings is a great assist guy.  He grts his numbers primarily because he holds onto the ball so much and tjen dumps it off so late in the zhot clock that a puston has to shoot.  
             

          • Feb 26, 20146:41 pm
            by Tim Thielke

            I doubt that “most agree he is in the discussion”. But i don’t know how either of us would determine that. If i was naming even just the worst defensive PGs, jennings wouldn’t make the list. No question that he is bad on that end, but many PGs are. I’d peg jennings as somewhat below average for the position.

          • Feb 26, 20148:07 pm
            by oats

            @ Tim and frankie d. Yeah, the bad defense group is pretty long. Isaiah Thomas, Ty Lawson, Stephen Curry, Kemba Walker, Damian Lillard, Kendall Marshall, Steve Blake, Trey Burke, Raymond Felton, and Jordan Crawford. That’s just with guys that have started at least 20 games and are worse defenders than Jennings, and Greivis Vasquez is one start from joining that group. Kyrie Irving, Jeremy Lin, Ellis/Calderon, and Jameer Nelson all might be worse too. I’m probably missing a few more that I didn’t come up with off the top of my head. Jennings is pretty bad defensively, but he’s not the worst at his position by a long shot.

  • Feb 25, 201411:40 am
    by something

    Reply

    Brent Barnaky killed this game with too much calls. 42 fouls called! That’s almost 1 foul per minute!

  • Feb 25, 20142:02 pm
    by JYD for Life

    Reply

    Would it be absurd to suggest Fredette would be a better starting PG for this team right now than Jennings?   Not saying he’s good…but…
     
    I mean, he’s shooting 49% from 3 this season (albeit a much smaller sample size).  
    His defense certainly can’t be worse than what you get from Jennings.  
     
     

    • Feb 25, 20142:16 pm
      by Huddy

      Reply

      I don’t see Fredette being able to facilitate an offense.  Not sure his defense being no worse is much of a talking point either.  He is not a starting point guard in this league.  Coming off the bench and hitting some threes is probably his peak, that would be nice for the Pistons (although I much prefer a 3 AND D player so we can have less line ups featuring multiple undersized players that can’t play defense) but he is not a starting point guard option. 

      • Feb 25, 20143:57 pm
        by JYD for Life

        Reply

        You’re absolutely right, Huddy…but I’d argue that it doesn’t look like Jennings is able to facilitate an offense. 
        Most of his stuff comes off of dribbling around and looking for cracks…I’ve seen almost no semblance of an offense during a majority of his time spent on the floor.  
         
        With Fredette, you probably lose the dribbling through 15 seconds of the shot clock and some garbage step-back jumper in iso.  
         
        Jennings has better handles and Fredette would probably have trouble getting the ball past any kind of defensive pressure, so my plan is flawed…It’s just hard to imagine anything worse than what happens now. 
         
         

        • Feb 25, 20146:21 pm
          by Huddy

          Reply

          I personally have a hard time deciding what this team needs at PG because I think the front court needs sorting out.  I don’t love Jennings but part of the problem with the team being stagnat is that he has 2 forwards that like or play well with the ball I’m their hands so they stand around waiting for it.  As is I can see why you’d like someone like Jimmee who can Atleast hit from outside on a high level on offense so they can help spread the court and essentially stay out of the way, but I don’t see that making a contending team either so why go through the effort of acquiring him. 

  • Feb 25, 20142:07 pm
    by Keith

    Reply

    Did anyone read the ESPN article about the possible inclusion of a 4-pt shot? Good read, even if nothing comes of it. Of course, one of the main points that came up is a huge slap in Joe D’s face. 
     
    “Looking across the league, you’ll find that efficient post offenses tend to come from 3-point-slinging teams. The Miami Heat and Los Angeles Clippers boast two of the most 3-point-happy teams in the league, and they both rank top-three in post-up efficiency. Using corner 3 rates as a proxy for spacing, we find that of the bottom 10 teams in corner 3 attempts, six also rank in the bottom 10 in post-up efficiency (New Orleans, Chicago, Milwaukee, Philadelphia, Detroit and Utah).”
     
    Basically, Joe’s hatred of using anything close to analytics bites us again. He went all out to build this bullying, post-oriented offense, but complete ignored the fact that it’s been known since the inception of the 3-pt line that big men NEED space in order to function. What a crazy random happenstance that no one (read: everyone but Joe) seemed to realize just with the Monroe-Drummond pairing, much less (read: more) with Smith-Monroe-Drummond.

    • Feb 25, 20143:54 pm
      by JYD for Life

      Reply

      RE: analytics – see Dan’s article from about a month ago.  You actually have no idea if Joe hates using them or not. 
       
       

    • Feb 25, 20144:05 pm
      by MIKEYDE248

      Reply

      You can’t say that Joe did not try and get 3 point shooters on the team.  He passed on Trey Burke to draft someone who was known for it in college and also signed one of the best 3 point shooters in Europe.

      • Feb 25, 20144:32 pm
        by oats

        Reply

        It’s also really common for guys to struggle when first transitioning to the NBA with it’s longer line and better defenses. It also seemed painfully obvious that Josh Smith would take more 3 pointers when placed at SF next to a couple lane cloggers like Monroe and Drummond, so to improve it from there he’d need to add a lot more than just two guys when he also let the team’s two best 3 point shooters leave. That would be Calderon in free agency and Knight in the Jennings trade. Even if KCP and Datome did transition well, the end result was that the team was likely to get significantly worse at shooting 3s. The fact that they didn’t transition well exacerbates the problem, and Dumars should didn’t have a contingency plan for what is a rather common occurrence.
         
        Plus it’s not exactly logical to pass on Burke to get a guy who shot a lower 3 point percentage than him in order to improve 3 point shooting. KCP was the pick primarily for defense and not his shooting, or at least I hope that is the case because if it isn’t then the team was even dumber than I thought.

      • Feb 25, 20144:33 pm
        by Keith

        Reply

        We don’t know that Joe actively doesn’t use analytics, it’s just that the results make you think so. When everyone with access to baskeball-reference is able to predict Joe’s failures the moment he makes them, it does begin to question whether Joe is informed at all.
         
        Burke vs KCP is actually a bad example. Burke was a significantly better player in college, and was the better shooter of the two. KCP specifically struggled in spot-up situations in college. This speaks directly against analytics since Joe apparently drafted him to play in a manner that the numbers suggested he would not fit. KCP was a ballhandler who was at his best off the dribble, but regardless Joe drafted him to be a spot-up shooter who didn’t create any offense. 
         
        Even signing one of the best Euro shooters was in a lot of ways against analytics. Joe was signing a rookie (who anyone would expect to struggle on both sides of the ball) who did not have great translated stats and was accustomed to heavy minutes. One who plays the same position as his new 54 million dollar free agent. Joe couldn’t have expected Luigi to get many minutes, and he couldn’t have possibly expected Luigi’s presence to have much impact on the overall dearth of shooting on the team.
         
        There is very little to suggest Joe has had ANY cohesive plan for the last 5 years. Even less to suggest he’s informing his generally bad decisions with objective metrics.

    • Feb 25, 20149:46 pm
      by Ken

      Reply

      The concept of big men being more efficient in the post against man defense vs a double team is common sense and has been known since the invention of basketball. It has nothing to do with analytics. Obviously if you don’t have shooters who command attention at the arc, then its more double teams the defense can use on the post man. Consistently trying score through a double team results in less efficent post ups, as opposed to a team that is only facing single coverage in the post every night due to teammates who command attention from 3.
       
      Joe obviously knows how the game of basketball works. Anyone who suggests otherwise is naive. It wasn’t his intention to have no 3 pt shooters. He signed Billups, Datome, KCP, and Jennings specifically to be his shooters – all were 37% or better 3pt shooters at some point in their careers – and none panned out. That was Joe’s biggest mistake here more so than the frontcourt itself.
       
      The jumbo frontcourt has actually worked exactly as Joe envisioned offensively, in terms of dominating the paint and rebounding. They’ve been #1 in points in the paint all year and near the top in rebounding.
       
      The problem is that the 3pt marksmen Joe signed to compliment them didn’t work, so while they lead the league in PIP its a very inefficient PIP scheme, as the offense as a whole just doesn’t function smoothly without those 3 pt shooters.
       
      We’ve seen what its capable of in the occasional games where our 3 pt shooter have been on. We dominate inside-out and put up like 110-120 pts efficiently.
       
      If we had more consistent shooters we could potentially have that offense every night. We may never know now, if Dumars is done and the new GM cleans house. But I don’t think there was anything fantastical about Joe’s vision for this team, and using or not using analytics had nothing to do with it not working. It was built to be a basic inside-out offense. The “out” part simply  didn’t pan out.
       
      In fact, you might even blame analytics for why it didn’t work. Maybe Joe just looked at those players 3FG% and assumed they would be good shooters, instead of actually putting in the work studying film on them to see they had flaws.

      • Feb 26, 20144:59 am
        by @GPMasters

        Reply

        Great post – thanks Ken

      • Feb 26, 20143:23 pm
        by oats

        Reply

        The argument you are making is that maybe he is just really awful at using stats. I guess that is possible, but I don’t see how that’s significantly different than not using them. There are tons of stats that tell us that rookies and guys over 35 aren’t reliable enough to make the cornerstone of a strategy for making the playoffs. One look at Jennings career stats should have told Dumars that he isn’t that reliable of a 3 point shooter, and a cursory glance at Smith’s shooting chart would allow anyone to realize that playing him at SF is a bad idea. There is also a lot of 5 man unit analysis that says that offenses tend to struggle if they don’t have at least 3 guys with a jump shot on the court, as well as what Keith pointed out about efficient post offenses often being paired with teams that can stretch the court out a bit. This is all really basic stuff. So either he is not using stats or he is incredibly bad at using them, but those two things add up to pretty much the same thing.

  • Feb 25, 20148:38 pm
    by gopistons

    Reply

    (rhetorical) Please someone explain how a player that is a terrible shooter thinks he deserves to take 15+ shots a game? Brandon Jennings is shooting ~.376 this year and sub .400 for his career. Keep shootin’ Tex. It’s unfortunate we could not retain the spanish dude from last year. Too bad the franchise is a complete mess. He was likely scared away.
    why hasn’t anyone reined jennings in. The guy is clearly ego driven. When he percieves himself to be showed up/embarassed by an opposing team’s player, he streaks down the court and shoots a 3 or a deep 2 without considering any other option, among other things.He also thinks he is a premier point guard in the league without accomplishing anything (review how his free agency went). He sure didn’t let the realites of that situation affect is self-perception.
    The team would win more if he averaged less shots a game and let our more efficient players shoulder the extra load. The sample size is large enough now. Shooting is clearly not a strong suit of his game. If he gets over that, he could become a good pg.
    You could say similar things about josh smith, although he’s shooting ~.420. and when you remove his 3pt field goal shots he is shooting .472. decent for a small forward. especially one playing out of position.

    • Feb 25, 20148:40 pm
      by gopistons

      Reply

      Ok, there was formatting in the post above. What happened to my paragraph spacing?!? oh well.
       
      ..

      • Feb 25, 20149:51 pm
        by Ken

        Reply

        The comments are formatted in “Pistons-style” text…
         
        ie. no spacing.

  • Feb 25, 20148:56 pm
    by Saul

    Reply

      Nothing Loyer does will change anything dramatically unless he makes the hard choice Cheeks didn’t and benches a big man, staggering them. Drummond should continue starting as he is now, 30+ minutes. Smith should also start because he is a dominant interior defender and capable of scoring inside. His problem is playing small forward, which means on defense he is guarding OUTSIDE. -Why- is a proven interior stopper not being placed in the paint? That is why the Pistons defense isn’t improving, among other things. If one of our big guys has to play small forward make it Drummond, he at the least will be as bad as Smith already is. Then Monroe comes off the bench to replace either of the two, and stays in for a nice long stretch during which you can rest or sit with foul trouble Smith or Drummond. After that you just rotate them in and out so only two are on the floor, subbing in and out for rests. The rest is just figuring out who fits around the starting two big men and fleshing out rotations.

    • Feb 25, 201410:18 pm
      by pablum

      Reply

      @gopiston. Jenning’s looks able to hang with the class of pg’s in the league. Curry, Kyrie, Deron, Walker, — Jenning’s has given it back to them even as he has surely taken it– but there’s the raw undoubtably fact of his talent– he can hang with them and that’s not easy to find. But go ahead and write his career totally of because of the undoubtable fact of your Jimmy Johnson endorsed “sample size.”
      To my aged eyes, Jennings right now is the story of this franchise. What Loyer is doing, benching him in the 4th, deliberately going to Bynum as a closer, is daring coaching and likely the first reality check Jening’s has had in years, if ever. The pro-scribes should be all over this story. Nobody I’ve seen has gotten any quotes from Jennings, in what is clearly a turning point in the future of his career (And obviously the team as well).
       
      @SaulDidn’t Frank get fired for this amongst other things for us? Regardless, aren’t we already playing this rotation a lot anyway, especially with Drummond’s fouls? Only thing that will dramatically change here is if Drummond gets a J.

      • Feb 25, 201410:38 pm
        by Tim Thielke

        Reply

        “Curry, Kyrie, Deron, Walker”

        One of those names is not like the others. And every player has good nights, even against top competition. If you want to assess players, look at their average performances, not cherry-picked head-to-heads.

        Jennings’ fg% is less than 9/10 of the average, even for his league-trailing position. Until he cleans that up, he will not even be an average starter.

        • Feb 25, 201411:01 pm
          by Ken

          Reply

          I sort of agree with both of you. Jennings is like the Tony Romo of PGs. He can go against Peyton Manning one night and match him 90% of the game, but then Mannings superior talent comes through and Romo goes Romo and in the end Manning wins. Then the next meeting Romo just looks like a mess all over and Peyton goes for 400 yds and 5 TDs.
           
          Its the same with Jennings. He has enough talent to occasionally match the elite PGs for 90% of a game one night, but ultimately the more talented PG wins out that game, and then the next meeting Jennings is a total mess while the other guy is still his same elite self.
           
          To me its not even his FG% that makes him below average. Its his defense. If he were a great defender, along with his great playmaking, and took better shots, he could be a great PG regardless of his low FG%, like Kidd and Billups were. But when he’s a bad defender along with bad shots and low FG%, the 8 assists per game alone just aren’t enough to be considered a quality starting PG.
           
          He’s essentially Ben Gordon 2.0, in that he’s an undersized niche guard. He does 1 thing great – make plays for teammates and that’s all you get. Same with BG. He made 3s and that was all you got. No defense, rebounding, nothing else. Those kind of guards belong coming off the bench more than starting, and Tony Romo is probably really a backup QB on a contender, not a starter either

          • Feb 25, 201411:21 pm
            by pablum

            We are in what seems to me to be some defining moments of Jenning’s development as a player. Loyer’s taking it to that level. He’s not Skiles, so there’s no scape-goat. This is as basic as Will Bynum’s better than you in the clutch and what are you going to do about it as player. IT’s that cut-throat. Really fascinating moment in the history of this kid right now.  

          • Feb 26, 20143:08 am
            by Ken

            Pablum, good point about the Loyer/Bynum/Jennings dynamic.  Loyer hasn’t really done much different than Cheeks, but he seems to have a more open competition at positions going on, which is good to see. I didn’t like how Jennings seemed so entrenched in that starting spot all year. For a guy who was only signed to a 3 yr/ 8 mil deal, and had so many flaws, it just didn’t seem right to annoint him as the starter and no one can take his place. 
             
            Being a young guy still developing it probably would’ve served him some good to have changed starters at PG more often, just to remind him that we don’t have to start him, because a lot of time he plays too careless like someone who has no concern about someone else taking their job. 

          • Feb 26, 20143:38 pm
            by oats

            @ Ken. Chauncey doesn’t belong in the list of bad shooters. He was a crazy efficient scorer during his prime. This is the problem with using FG%, it doesn’t account for 3 point shots giving an extra point or being able to get to the line at will. That’s why true shooting percentage exists, and he has a career mark of .580 which is in the elite range. Kidd’s career mark of .507 is well below average, and Jennings career mark of .497 is bad.
             
            Here’s the big difference between Kidd and Jennings as shooters. Kidd averaged 11.2 shots per 36 minutes while Jennings is taking 16 in his career and 15.5 in Detroit. Kidd didn’t let his bad shooting drag down the team to nearly the same extent as Jennings does. Jennings being a bad shooter is a big part of his problem because he makes it a big part of the problem by shooting so much.

        • Feb 25, 201411:14 pm
          by pablum

          Reply

          Tim, are you singing your points now? Yeah, hangin’ with me does that! Have to give mucho props to Keith and Ken for the fine posts on Dumars and the question of anlytics. Very nice stuff.
          Now, Tim, if the last few games have shown us anything, it’s that Jenning’s fg% is the least of his problems. We are now legitimately talking about whether this man is going to be a killer or not. That’s what’s on the line. His very fuckin’ manhood as a player. It is THE story of this team right now. There is no other. And you should be on it. Or someone should.   

          • Feb 25, 201411:43 pm
            by Tim Thielke

            Singing? You may sing them as you read them if you like, but i am typing–completely non-vocal, melodic or otherwise.

            Also, people care way too much about “clutch”. Good play early and bad play late is equally valuable to bad play early and good play late. The winnee is the team that scores more total. There’s no “clutch” period in which baskets count double.

          • Feb 26, 201411:59 am
            by pablum

            (1) Tim, you wrote, “one of these names is not like the other” — which is a riff on a Big Bird classic: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ueZ6tvqhk8U (but, who knows, maybe I will whip out a hoop’s libretto out of our friendly repartee (sure hope it’s friendly…).
            (2) “People care way too much about clutch”? Careers and legacies are defined by clutch, Tim. That’s why it’s called clutch. That’s why hyper-analytic sites like 82games.com have stats for clutch. That’s why the name “Mr. Big Shot” will forever be written in the Piston history books…
            (3) Lastly, come on pro-scribe! Use your reporter’s platform! You write for an ESPN network affiliate, goddamn it! — Use your credentials and write all your fans here a story on the real drama unfolding before our eyes between Loyer and Jennings. See if you can get a quote from somebody in Pistonland about what’s happening. Make some news pro-scribe! This is as about as epic as it gets with a player and coach. And amongst players, whether you want to believe it or not, all quarters are NOT equal — No one would even think about the name of Robert Horry if, well, you know! Come on Tim, last thing you wrote was on KCP’s lack of turn-overs, which is now officially laughable given his total collapse as a player these days.
             
             

          • Feb 26, 201412:11 pm
            by Huddy

            @pablum We remember small samples of moments(much like your knack for picking out specific games that boost your point and ignoring the majority of performances) and that creates false perception.  I remember Chauncey for leading good teams to great success throughout the regular and post season, which is what I want out of Jennings.  You remember a small sample of performances that aren’t indicative of Chauncey’s actual ability to hit clutch shots and forget what was really important about him…consistent strong play.
            http://www.pistonpowered.com/2010/09/myth-chauncey-billups-is-really-mr-big-shot/
             
            I can’t wait to hear how despite obvious evidence to the contrary I will probably be blasphemous and a horrible excuse for a pistons fan for pointing out the fallacy of Chauncey’s nick name.

          • Feb 26, 20141:11 pm
            by pablum

            @Huddy — Thanks for the link to the superb debate on whether Chauncey really deserves the Mr. Big-Shot label or not. Think I’ll side with gmehl1977′s/FrankieD’s comments on that thread and take the view that having the guts to take clutch shots should weigh into the definition because your teammates won’t let you take those shots for very long if you can’t produce: This is where theory and reality rupture. Chauncey’s teammates gave him the nickname “Mr. Bigshot” and they didn’t do it because it was a “Myth” as Patrick claims. They did it because they played with Mr. Bigshot, won a title with Mr. Bigshot. watched Mr. Bigshot hoist the finals MVP trophy. Also I saw no response to FrankieD’s revised cited metrics of “clutch” “last 5 mins. [close game].”
             
            And I’ll never impute your support for our warriors. You just say some strange fucking shit sometimes — as do I……. 

          • Feb 26, 20141:26 pm
            by Huddy

            I think his team mates put that trust in him because of his overall performance and because of his leadership through the first 95% of the game.  I dont think the team was looking at their line up and saying this guy makes the most shots in the end…I think they are saying this is our guy all game long so lets give him a chance to end it.  As the number show, Billups earned that trust in his overall play even though his performance in those specific situations wasn’t prime. 

          • Feb 26, 20146:53 pm
            by Tim Thielke

            1. Fair enough, i admit to a stunning lack of knowledge in the realm of pop culture.

            2. Your examples merely illustrate my point that people care too much about “clutch”. If such things didn’t exist, it would display rationality and i’d have no gripes on the matter.

            3. I don’t find jennings/loyer to be a very interesting story. And it is certainly not in my wheelhouse anyway. Also, I have no problem with my kcp article. I stand by what i wrote, which wasn’t that he is a phenomenal player.

  • Feb 26, 20148:16 pm
    by The Microwave

    Reply

    ITS ALL ABOUT HEART!!! Which from my observations these guys haven’t shown a glimmer of. If they lose tonight. I hope they lose every single game until next year. Every one!

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