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Pistons return to form by blowing a fourth quarter lead over Cavs

Cleveland Cavaliers 93 FinalRecap | Box Score 89 Detroit Pistons
Greg Monroe, PF Shot Chart 35 MIN | 7-13 FG | 2-4 FT | 9 REB | 5 AST | 1 STL | 1 BLK | 3 TO | 16 PTS | -3Monroe was the guy we keep asking him to be early on. He demanded the ball early and often, worked mismatches, and put the team on his back, getting Detroit out to an early 13 point lead. Then he kinda stopped doing that and the Cavs slowly but surely came back and won the game.
Also, Thompson beat him for a ton of putbacks down the stretch.

Josh Smith, SF Shot Chart 40 MIN | 7-15 FG | 3-6 FT | 10 REB | 3 AST | 0 STL | 4 BLK | 2 TO | 18 PTS | -7Smith’s play wasn’t always perfect, but he was hustling harder than anybody and didn’t wind up with a bad line. I’ll take it.

Kyle Singler, SF Shot Chart 41 MIN | 2-9 FG | 8-8 FT | 7 REB | 1 AST | 0 STL | 0 BLK | 0 TO | 12 PTS | -3Singler’s work at the stripe was nice, but his team could have used a couple more of his shots falling. Especially when you acount for the fact that several of his trips to the line had and-1 potential. And his airball from about 10 feet was just ugly.But I can’t complain too much when his counterpart, who is a better player, goes 0-9 for four points.

Andre Drummond, C Shot Chart 35 MIN | 7-13 FG | 2-3 FT | 17 REB | 1 AST | 2 STL | 0 BLK | 2 TO | 16 PTS | +4Drummond grabbed 10 offensive boards. That’s amazing. Unfortunately, he had a couple boneheaded plays late, most notably his goaltend to give the Cavs a tie with 5 minutes remaining. That ball didn’t look like it was on its way in.

Brandon Jennings, PG Shot Chart 36 MIN | 3-14 FG | 0-2 FT | 4 REB | 5 AST | 0 STL | 0 BLK | 2 TO | 9 PTS | -3Jennings was laying bricks tonight. And his awful defense was a big part of Thompson’s huge night. Jennings kept letting Irving past, a Piston big would help, Irving would miss the shot (most of his misses were due to the big men, not Jennings), and they’d be out of possession to rebound allowing Tristan to soar in for the put back. Jennings earned as much credit for this loss as anyone.

Jonas Jerebko, PF Shot Chart 13 MIN | 1-1 FG | 0-0 FT | 2 REB | 1 AST | 0 STL | 0 BLK | 0 TO | 2 PTS | +2So Jerebko is a legit part of the rotation now? He did well enough in this one, I guess.

Will Bynum, PG Shot Chart 20 MIN | 5-10 FG | 2-2 FT | 2 REB | 4 AST | 1 STL | 0 BLK | 2 TO | 12 PTS | -3Bynum’s defense was possibly even worse than Jennings’. But at least he was hitting some of his shots.

Kentavious Caldwell-Pope, SG Shot Chart 9 MIN | 0-3 FG | 0-0 FT | 1 REB | 1 AST | 0 STL | 0 BLK | 2 TO | 0 PTS | 0KCP is barely playing these days and the level of his play fits that. So it’s a chicken-and-egg question. Is his role diminishing because he is stinking it up, or does he need lots of minutes in order to play well?

Rodney Stuckey, SG Shot Chart 12 MIN | 1-5 FG | 2-2 FT | 1 REB | 0 AST | 1 STL | 0 BLK | 3 TO | 4 PTS | -7Stuckey comes into the game to score. He shot 1-5 and turned it over three times. If the other PGs weren’t playing poorly in this one, I would believe that Stuckey entering the game was the difference between a win and a loss.

John Loyer
Loyer isn’t magical. Now that we have that cleared up, his coaching looked comparable to the win over the Spurs but seemed less effective. The Pistons got progressively less aggressive as the game went on. Loyer should have found a way to prevent that.

179 Comments

  • Feb 12, 201411:30 pm
    by Jodi aka "The Guru"

    Reply

    I have new clue how KCP lost his starting spot…Singler deserved a C-…

    • Feb 13, 20142:14 am
      by Brandon Knight

      Reply

      Monroe deserves an FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF
      Btw. Monroe averaging “”"”"”"”"”".04″”"”"”"”"”"” blocks a game should tell you a whole a lot about his defense.
      a  fu*cking 6-11 big guy averaging 32 minutes a game only averages a 0.4 blocks a game!!! WTF man!
      I swear he just raises his hands in the air he should at least get a block!
      This guy has no future in Detroit. Bye.

      • Feb 13, 20142:22 am
        by Brandon Knight

        Reply

        I swear if he*
        0.4 blocks**

      • Feb 13, 20147:39 am
        by Huddy

        Reply

        Blake griffin, Zach Randolph, Dirk, David Lee, Tristan Thompson, Carlos Boozer and Kevin Love…all players averaging similar blocks numbers.  BPG are not the end all be all of any big man.  As one of the posters keep pointing out, there are plenty of big men who succeed on good Defensive teams with a good scheme.  
         
        Either way, you can waste a lot of time after every game wondering why Monroe isn’t traded or you can understand that a trade isn’t possible without a quality trade partner and before the deadline Monroe has the least possible value in trade since the trade looks desperate.

        • Feb 13, 201410:05 am
          by JYD for Life

          Reply

          Exactly, Huddy…If Drummond keeps progressing into an elite defender, they will be fine together.  
          Monroe should grow into a guy who takes up space and alters shots, grabs boards, etc.  He just needs to be coached up.  
           
          The perimeter defense is probably the biggest issue right now.  Jennings is rarely interested in staying with his man.  Once that breaks down, Greg and Drummond slide slightly out of position and it ultimately makes them look worse.  
          You see the same thing when Smith has to guard a quicker SF and things aren’t going to get better with Singler starting when he’s matched up against a quick SG.  
           
          Hopefully Loyer can implement a scheme where the paint is packed and everything funnels to either the middle or to the baseline.  They need to stay home on the corner 3 shooters and perhaps just sag off most teams on the perimeter in general.  We’ve got rebounders, so unless you’re playing teams with more than one solid shooter, why not pack the paint?  They could easily run a hybrid zone (essentially a lot of man-to-man, but strategically sending the offense in a certain direction) of some kind.  It can work.  Right now, there’s never any cohesiveness.  
           
           
           

      • Feb 13, 20147:53 am
        by Dan Feldman

        Reply

        There are 24 players 6-foot-11 or taller averaging at least 26 minutes per game.

        Of those 24, Monroe ranks 24th in blocks per game.

        But he also ranks fourth in steals per game.

        Monroe often uses his quick hinds to swipe at the ball from his man during a shot. He’s more successful at that than going up for a block.

        Considering steals are more valuable than blocks, I’d say Monroe is managing that defensive choice pretty well.

        • Feb 13, 20149:32 am
          by johnnyboy

          Reply

          With all due respect, he’s not “managing” anything. He doesn’t have the skill set to block shots. Blocking shots are not the “end all, be all” of rim protection. Altering shots and giving players pause before entering the paint are just as important. Monroe offers zero rim protection.
           
          His steals are OK, but doesn’t make up for his lack of rim protection IMHO.

          • Feb 13, 201410:42 am
            by oats

            Rim protection defined that way is impossible to evaluate without using camera tracking data, and even that is hard to say is all that accurate. It’s also really hard to tell whether or not adding a second or third shot blocker results in diminishing returns. I strongly suspect that it would. My best guess is that a fair number of altered shots end up that way as long as one shot blocker is on the court, and adding a second probably doesn’t move the needle much other than the value of his blocked shots. I’m unconvinced teams need multiple rim protectors on the court at a time. The prime example of this would be the Grizzlies fielding the second best defense last year with Zach Randolph and his .4 blocks per game starting at PF. Drummond actually blocks enough shots that I don’t really care how many shots the PF next to him blocks.

          • Feb 13, 201411:42 am
            by johnnyboy

            Rim protection/interior defense has been studied. It’s very easily evaluated. No need for your “best guess.” It really doesn’t matter if you or I think it important. The data speaks for itself.
             
            In their study (looking at (2012/2013 Data) “The Dwight Effect”, Kirk Goldsberry and Eric Weiss found that “over 70 [percent] of shots near the rim either result in points, a shooting foul or an offensive rebound.”
             
            In the study by Goldsberry and Weiss, only one Piston defender, Greg Monroe, had faced the requisite 500 shot attempts to be featured. He ranked as one of the worst in the league. Monroe finished 50th among the 52 players studied, allowing opponents to shoot 58.7 percent from close range while he was within five feet of the basket. Only David Lee and Luis Scola were worse.
             
            Interior defense is one of the most crucial parts of the NBA game, and is one of the areas in which the Pistons need to make significant strides in order to become a playoff team.
             
            You can also check out Zach Lowes excellent article at Grantland where he speaks of advanced metrics showing interior defense and defending the corner 3 as the most important aspects of defense in today’s NBA.
             
            Monroe offers zero rim protection.

          • Feb 13, 20141:03 pm
            by oats

            @ johnnyboy. That in no way countered my point. Let me restate my point. I’m saying that I see very little evidence that stacking shot blockers has a one to one correlation to interior defense. I think the evidence supports the idea that adding additional shot blockers suffers from diminishing returns when it comes to a team’s ability to defend the paint.
             
            For example, Milwaukee has plenty of shot blockers and is still average at giving up points in the paint. Indiana gets it done with one good shot blocker on the court at a time, although David West is closer to average at .9 a game. Chicago gets it done with 2 pretty good shot blockers (1.5 and 1.4 a game) in Noah and Gibson, although they aren’t both starters and they don’t spend all that much time on the court together. Instead they usually have one of those guys on the court with Boozer and his .4 blocks a game. Ibaka is paired with a pretty average Perkins in limited minutes, and yet that team plays good interior defense. Marc Gasol is paired with Zach Randolph, and they play good interior defense despite the fact that Randolph is a terrible shot blocker and Gasol is only pretty good at it. The Rockets are pretty bad at giving up points in the paint despite having Howard paired with another solid shot blocker in Terrence Jones. Detroit’s pretty bad at it despite starting Drummond and Smith. Smith is blocking shots at a similar rate in Detroit to what he did in Atlanta so that is still relevant. The Heat are above average at defending the paint despite starting a single average shot blocker in Bosh.
             
            My point is simple, I don’t see the need to have two shot blockers in the starting lineup. Every team should have one, and Detroit has Drummond. Yet the most important thing by far in terms of playing interior defense is what the team can manage as a unit. Detroit’s got a lot of problems with this. Monroe is definitely a part of the problem, but he could function in a good defense with some competent pieces around him and a scheme that makes some sense. So no, I don’t care that much that he’s a bad shot blocker.

          • Feb 13, 20143:41 pm
            by JYD for Life

            You’re spot on, Oats…If you have two guys who are always trying to block shots, you will have even more breakdowns defensively.  The Houston frontcourt is a prime example.    
             
            The biggest issue here is the perimeter defense breaking down and our bigs end up out of position.  
             
             

          • Feb 13, 20144:22 pm
            by Max

            @Oats   
            I usually think you’re on point but did you learn nothing from the 2004 Pistons?   In my opinion, the greatest and most unique strength of that team was that it featured three great shot blockers on the front line.   I know calling Prince a great shot blocker is highly debatable with the argument perhaps being stronger that he wasn’t a great shot blocker but that diminishing returns idea probably undercut the numbers he put up and he was one of the best at chasing down players during fast breaks and I’d say he altered a lot more shots than he blocked.   Bottom line: it may not be necessary to have more than one shot blocker but having two or three or more is definitely a recipe for success.     
            Also, offering Miami as an example is pretty dubious.   They won the championship last year while being the worst rebounding team in the entire league and offering subpar rim protection but they might have been the only team in league history to have much success with those realities.   They were and are a total anomaly when compared to the other teams throughout league history that have won and no one should look to them as an example unless they can also feature the best player in the league, the best duo in the league and the best threesome in the league in their lineup. With all that said, the Heat came very close to losing in both the conference finals and finals last year and their biggest Achilles Heal by far was their inability to stop teams from getting lots of bunnies inside.  

          • Feb 13, 20145:09 pm
            by oats

            @ Max. I’m not saying that there is no point in having multiple shot blockers, I’m saying the advantage isn’t as big as johnnyboy is suggesting. The effect of altering shots is largely being handled by just that primary shot blocker and adding to that isn’t a big addition beyond the sheer value of a blocked shot. Blocked shots do always have value, although slightly less than a steal since it isn’t a guaranteed turnover.
             
            I don’t think it was shot blocking per se that was the strength of that Pistons team. I think it was that they had multiple good individual defenders and the best help defender in basketball to make up for the one weak link in Rip. That’s a recipe for a very good defense, but not the only one. Monroe could similarly be the weak link on a good defensive team.
             
            As for Miami, they are one of the best at preventing points in the paint. I’ll concede that teams with a power game in the post can beat them up significantly, but by and large they are pretty good at this. The fact that they are usually good at preventing points in the paint goes to the point that good interior defense is largely a team thing. What happens to them against the Pacers is just proof that it is a combination of team play and having a talented post defender. I’m ok with that since that’s kind of the point I’m making anyways. Detroit has a rim protector and needs to get better at helping him out. Some of that is Monroe, but Detroit’s defensive issues are more extensive than just him. I also still think that Monroe can be a part of a good defensive unit, although it is harder with him than with a better defender.

          • Feb 13, 20145:34 pm
            by Max

            I agree Monroe can be a part of a good defensive team and the biggest evidence I see is that he is arguably a better defender than Boozer, if only because Monroe is great at stealing the ball, and the Bulls have been a great defensive team with Boozer.   
            As to Miami: it seems pretty clear to me that certain teams can just bludgeon them inside and I lost count of the wide open dunks the Pacers got last year against them in the conference finals.   Even our lowly Pistons have had a good deal of success scoring against them in the paint.  
            The stats may point to Miami defending the paint well but it’s really mostly about their perimeter defense since they make it so difficult for teams to run set plays and get the ball inside cleanly.  Once it gets there though the Heat are basically defenseless.  I’m sure they also benefit from playing so few teams that feature good scorers inside.  

          • Feb 13, 20147:45 pm
            by johnnyboy

            @oats, My original post spoke to Monroe’s rim protection abilities or lack there of.
             
            You said, “Rim protection defined that way is impossible to evaluate without using camera tracking data, and even that is hard to say is all that accurate.”
             
            I was just pointing out it could be evaluated and a study has shown Monroe ranked 50th out of 52 interior defenders.
             
            You say, “So no, I don’t care that much that he’s a bad shot blocker.”
             
            So we agree, Monroe offers no rim protection.
             
            You say, “My point is simple, I don’t see the need to have two shot blockers in the starting lineup. Every team should have one, and Detroit has Drummond. Yet the most important thing by far in terms of playing interior defense is what the team can manage as a unit.”
             
            I’m not sure where you’re coming from. You seem to be saying say the Pistons have Drummond, but he’s not as important as playing as a unit? If this is what you’re saying, it’s wrong. The most important aspect is not the “unit,” it’s the shot blocking big man (Hibbert, Sanders, Ibaka, etc.). You really should read the study by Kirk Goldsberry and Eric Weiss. It may give you a little insight.
             
            I didn’t address your other point because it had nothing to do with Monroe.
             
            BTW, the Pistons have 2 rim protectors in the lineup. Drummond and Smith.

          • Feb 14, 201412:19 am
            by oats

            @ johnnyboy. Your point isn’t that Monroe is a bad rim protector though. Your argument was that his steals don’t make up for his bad rim protection. My counterargument is that his lack of rim protection is not a big deal. I guess I should have finished the thought better and said that means that his steals should compensate for his bad rim protection because his lack of ability to protect the rim is largely irrelevant.
             
            Having a strong shot blocker can go a long ways to helping a team’s interior defense, but they don’t do it by themselves. That study you are citing declared Larry Sanders the king of interior defense, but the Bucks were the second worst team at preventing points in the paint. Last year the Heat were the 7th best at it despite not have a good shot blocker in the starting lineup. Clearly both having a shot blocker and playing good team defense are contributing factors, and I still suspect that team defense is the more important part of it.
             
            I actually read that report right after the Sloan conference when it first hit the internet. It’s not new information for me. I also think it wasn’t entirely conclusive. For starters, it was based on data coming from only the 15 stadiums that had SportsVu cameras, and Detroit wasn’t one of those stadiums. If it was a Detroit home game then they had no data from that game. They also are assigning equal value to any play when the defender is within the vicinity, regardless of whether or not that defender was actively engaged in the play. I mean, these are the limitations that the paper itself asserts that it has and it even admits that a lot more study needs to be done before we know how accurate its data actually is.
             
            As for your point about Detroit having 2 shot blockers, that actually supports the idea that adding additional shot blockers doesn’t really help interior defense all that much. Detroit’s one of the 10 worst teams at giving up points in the paint.

          • Feb 14, 20148:51 am
            by johnnyboy

            In their study “The Dwight Effect“, Kirk Goldsberry and Eric Weiss found that “over 70 [percent] of shots near the rim either result in points, a shooting foul or an offensive rebound.”
             
            Their study predictably found that shot-blocking big men like RoyHibbert, Larry Sanders and Serge Ibaka had an enormous influence on close-range field goals. When they were within five feet of the basket, each player held opponents under 42 percent shooting from within five feet, with the league average at 49.7 percent.
             
            Their teams held opponents to low shooting percentages from close range. The Indiana Pacers, Milwaukee Bucks, and Oklahoma City Thunderall finished the season in the top five in opposing teams field field goal percentagefrom within five feet, per NBA.com.
             
            How can you read the study, look at the data, and still disregard the importance of a shot blocking big man? The shot blocking big man is the most important factor to interior defense.
             
            You don’t give credence to the study. Okay. How about a little anecdotal evidence. In last years Eastern Conference Finals it was telling what happened when Hibbert left the floor. Miami consistently attacked the rim. When Hibbert returned to the floor, Miami was much more reluctant to drive to the hoop.
             
            Monroe is a 6’11” big man. Yes, I do think it more important for him to be a rim protector. His 1.0 steals per game do not make up for his lack of rim protection.  

          • Feb 14, 20147:52 pm
            by pablum

            Gentlemen, I have just taken the time to carefully read this thread and its is exceptional. “The Dwight Effect” — an actual study — exceptional hoop’s discussion.

        • Feb 13, 20149:56 am
          by JYD for Life

          Reply

          Dan – Are you hearing any rumblings about what might happen? 
           
          Seems like everything I’ve read has Joe avoiding the press.  
          It’s clear they shouldn’t trade Monroe, but something has to be done.  You would avoid late game collapses with a veteran backup PG…I would love to see a CV or Stuckey for Jameer Nelson (or both for Nelson and Big Baby) deal.  If they’re serious about the Playoffs, something like this needs to happen.  Not sure what Denver wants for Andre Miller, but he would probably help as well.   

  • Feb 12, 201411:41 pm
    by Mel

    Reply

    Are you serious Monroe did what he always do, during the game he’s great but as soon as the game gets to close for comfort he disappear. Everyone likes to get on J Smith but at least he has the heart to make plays when the game get’s tight. And alot of the times  he makes something happen. He’s been to the playoffs and helped his team win games. I like Monroe but he has no heart right now , he folds when the pressure is on. Bynum sucked, him and Monroe lost the game with turnovers and missed shots. Package them both and get anybody who is over 6 feet tall that can play defense and shot the damn ball.
    Loyer is ok and I know it’s early but I say get Hollins. Heard him today he actually said he likes the front court and he really likes J Smith. They asked him what could he do to help make the team better, his response was to teach them how to be winners. That’s exactly what they need, a coach that’s not going to put up with this crap and knows how to work with the players we have, he’s practically begging for the job. That let’s you know he wants to coach this team.  Oh yeah get rid of Jerebko , Stuckey and CV too.

    • Feb 12, 201411:45 pm
      by Brandon Knight

      Reply

      We need a like button here! Enough said!

    • Feb 13, 201410:14 am
      by Birdman84

      Reply

      Most of the time when Smith “makes something happen” that something is a missed shot.

      • Feb 14, 20142:23 am
        by Guest

        Reply

        Not true lately.  He’s been dominant on defense since moving to the 4.  And his shot selection and shooting has been a lot better the past few games.

  • Feb 12, 201411:43 pm
    by Brandon Knight

    Reply

    Brandon Knight balling again! Just a reminder! #LOL
    —————–
    This game was ridiculous. Greg Kelser said it a million times….ball movement…ball fu*cking movement! I don’t blame Josh nor Jennings for chucking shots….cuz no body fuc*king moves! Everyone just standing there watching a one on one match up. WTF!! Ball Movement is crucial. You get a lot of mismatches, you get a lot of opportunities to cut to the basket…it makes the offense much smoother. Why the Pistons aren’t moving the ball? Well, I don’t have a fuc*king clue. Meanwhile who was guarding Tristan Thompson again? Ughh I am so sick of it. Monroe should be traded as soon as possible. Gerald Green and a pick is a good deal fro me!
    Jennings
    Singler
    Gerald Green
    Josh Smith
    Drummond
    Killers on the fast break.

    • Feb 13, 201412:09 am
      by Brandon Knight

      Reply

      How about this!?
      I think we have enough assets to get Jeff Green from Boston and Gerald Green from Phoenix
      PG Brandon Jennings
      SG Gerald Green
      SF Jeff Green
      PF Josh Smith
      C   Drummond
      Filthy Lineup!
      Since Boston wants to unload Wallace and Green’s contract! I believe we can get them for Stuckey and Charlie!
      And trade Monroe for Gerald Green and a pick for Monroe!
       

      • Feb 13, 201412:14 am
        by Smitty

        Reply

        not bad then throw in will bynum for gary neal. 

      • Feb 13, 201412:15 am
        by Smitty

        Reply

        First time all year you came up with some sense haha.

      • Feb 13, 201411:04 am
        by oats

        Reply

        Gerald Green has never put together consecutive years of competent basketball and is 28. He’s also basically a mediocre 6th man or a bad starter. That’s not even close to fair value for Monroe unless that pick ends up in the top 10 or so, and Phoenix doesn’t have a pick that high to offer. This is a really terrible trade suggestion.

        • Feb 13, 201411:20 am
          by zdh

          Reply

          Green has been playing pretty decent this season, but I agree that trade is terrible value for Monroe.

          • Feb 13, 201411:59 am
            by Parsons

            Afflalo and Harris for Monroe and CV. Then I want Kelly Olynyk in the Boston trade or Vitor Faverani though I’d rather Olynyk. Stuckey and Singler might be enough for Green and Olynyk since they want to cut salary to spend on a superstar in the offseason.

            Drummond
            Smith
            Green
            Afflalo
            Jennings

            That would be a good team except they’d have 3 28 year olds so our window would be small. Though Harris and Olynyk might help that plus our low 20′s (optimistic) draft pick next season.

          • Feb 13, 20143:46 pm
            by JYD for Life

            That’s tough because Afflalo has one more year guaranteed on his deal.  He’s got a player option for 2015-2016.  
            While I can say I love Afflalo at 8 million a year, I’m not sure he’s worth the probable 10 mil he will ask for when he opts out after next season.  At that point, you’re paying a premium for what KCP should evolve into.  Harris is ok, but I’m not sure he’s a starting SF in this league.  
             
            No way they give Olynyk in a salary dump that doesn’t include Gerald Wallace.  Other reports have come out that they want a 1st rounder in any Jeff Green Deal.   You probably could do a Stuck/CV for Green/Wallace deal and ask Boston for a pick though.   Would you rather pay Monroe a premium or have Green for two more years guaranteed and Wallace for two more at an outrageous 10mil per year?  
             
             

    • Feb 13, 201410:15 am
      by Birdman84

      Reply

      Maybe the other players aren’t moving because they know they won’t get the ball.

      • Feb 14, 201410:18 am
        by Tim Thielke

        Reply

        Did you seriously just post the same trade 9 times?

        • Feb 14, 201411:37 am
          by JYD for Life

          Reply

          Ha!  
          I like the trade, but Denver probably says no…not sure if that changes if Orlando gives Denver their pick back for this year (which will be late lottery), so I don’t see it happening.  

  • Feb 12, 201411:46 pm
    by Smitty

    Reply

    Hopefully we make a trade! Please Gores let Joe D ship out Monroe! If we trade Monroe Stuckey and KCP we could really bring back an all star.

  • Feb 12, 201411:46 pm
    by James

    Reply

    I don’t care much about this season one way or the other, all I’m hoping, wishing for is for this team to have a new Gm, A better coach,  no CV, no Stuckey, AND NO MONROE on this team next year. He can take his 16 pts 7 rebs, his slow feet, weak legs, hush puppy moves AND NO DEFENSE PLAYIN ASS ELSEWHERE!

    • Feb 12, 201411:54 pm
      by Brandon Knight

      Reply

      Even if averages 20+ points I don’t want his ass in Detroit! He gives them all on the other end!

  • Feb 12, 201411:55 pm
    by Prelove

    Reply

    I’ve been a die hard fan since the days of david wood, mark west, & mark macon. This one hurt a lot for some reason. Pistons really let us down tonight, I need a long break from this team.

  • Feb 13, 201412:00 am
    by James

    Reply

    I would rather see the Theo Ratliff and Jerome Williams(JUNKYARD DOG) under Doug Collins regime instead of Monroe and Smith playin out of position. YUCK!@@!@

    • Feb 13, 201412:27 am
      by gmehl

      Reply

      Man I loved the JY dog

      • Feb 13, 20149:48 am
        by JYD for Life

        Reply

        Great to hear love for the JYD!  He was a beast.  Junkyard Animals! 

  • Feb 13, 201412:07 am
    by Smitty

    Reply

    Even in our wins you could see we don’t need monroe. Everyone keeps saying 16 and 10. Fuck that too many losses with monroe. NO D. Lacks athleticism and hustle. We need players with RANGE. By RANGE I mean players who defend the perimeter and can shoot form the perimeter. Also KCP can be thrown into a trade for all I care. Smith is not a bad player. This loss pissed me off so much but at least it shows that we need a different roster. 

    • Feb 13, 201410:17 am
      by Birdman84

      Reply

      Smith can’t shoot from the perimeter.

    • Feb 13, 201411:21 am
      by Jon

      Reply

      Have you ever played a team sport? Guess who else participated in those losses? You can’t just attribute every loss to Monroe because he doesn’t have good foot speed. If the perimeter D would keep a guy in front of them just a little bit, he wouldn’t have to move his feet so far and it wouldn’t be a problem.  Guess what else. By moving Monroe, you would be replacing him with a player who has shown fairly consistently that he can’t provide the so-called RANGE you so desire.  Moving Monroe for less than equal value, sets the team back even farther than the Smith signing probably did

  • Feb 13, 201412:13 am
    by Smitty

    Reply

    I have a trade to start with nothing big. Gary Neal for Will Bynum. http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=kqv87lr 

    • Feb 13, 201412:27 am
      by Brandon Knight

      Reply

      A trade machine for this trade! lmaooo.

      • Feb 13, 201412:37 am
        by Smitty

        Reply

        keepin it simple. haha. Everyone else is using it to find 5 different teams trading 4 players a piece. 
         

        • Feb 13, 201410:02 am
          by Tim Thielke

          Reply

          Well, yeah, that’s sort of the point. Because you can just say Will Bynum for Gary Neal and everyone knows what you’re proposing. For complicated trades, it’s hard to follow without the visual.

  • Feb 13, 201412:38 am
    by gmehl

    Reply

    What frustrates me about tonights game apart from the obvious (another 4th quarter letdown) is we blew a chance to peg back a game on Atlanta, Charlotte and Washington who all lost tonight. That and we could’ve also distanced ourselves from New York and Cleveland who are only right behind us.
     
    Correct me if i’m wrong but isn’t this something like our 12th or 13th game we’ve blown where we’ve had a double digit in the 4th quarter?? This team is sooo hard to cheer for.

    • Feb 13, 20143:50 pm
      by JYD for Life

      Reply

      It’s pretty close to that…keeping in mind they blew multiple, double-digit leads in that game.  This team is so undisciplined, it’s sickening.  
      Hopefully things change with Loyer, but if not, they really need a hard-nosed coach to push them into shape. 
       
       

  • Feb 13, 201412:53 am
    by Mrdumas

    Reply

    Kudos

  • Feb 13, 20141:15 am
    by jg22

    Reply

    FU WILL BYNUM!

  • Feb 13, 20142:10 am
    by sdasq

    Reply

    the proplem of this game and mostly games is pg defence (Will Bynum, Jennings ) ..we have the best point gaurd defender last year in ncaa !!!! where is he ?

    • Feb 13, 20142:16 am
      by Brandon Knight

      Reply

      Trey Burke????? Lmaoo good night son

      • Feb 13, 20149:57 am
        by Patti #1

        Reply

        funny ;-)

      • Feb 13, 201410:36 am
        by Huddy

        Reply

        You know he means Peyton Siva right?

        • Feb 14, 20142:30 am
          by Guest

          Reply

          If someone posts 500 question marks after making a ridiculous statement, I think it’s safe to assume they were being sarcastic.

    • Feb 13, 201410:05 am
      by Tim Thielke

      Reply

      An upgrade to decent defense (and understand, Siva’s defense has been decent, not good) doesn’t come close to making up for the train wreck that Siva is on offense.

      • Feb 13, 201411:31 am
        by pablum

        Reply

        Speaking of train wrecks, I’d like to include your opinion of Brando Jennings as “not even being close to a top 10 NBA pg” as one of them — if you can handle the humiliation. (Though, that’s tough given your absurdist claim that our 2004 Piston title team “was an insta-championship team if there ever was one” comparable to today’s Heat team.) But on to the Jenning’s humiliation:
        (1) Sports Ill. Lists him Jennings as 3rd best pg available in FA last year, ahead of numeorus players you said were better: (BTW Calderon is at #6): http://nba.si.com/2013/05/31/nba-free-agency-2013-chris-paul-jeff-teague-brandon-jennings/
         (2) ESPN currently ranks Jennings at #13 pg in the league. (You argued emphatically he was “nowhere near #10″ didn’t ya’ Tim?): http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/3997/brandon-jennings
         (3) Per yahoo, Jennings is #7 pg in ppg in league and #4 in assists.: http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/stats/byposition?pos=PG
        (But since, according to you, I’m an incompetent idiot, who “doesn’t understand stats at all” then I guess these impressive stats mean nothing. Because only an incompetent idiot would suggest that a PG who is #7 in scoring and # 4 assists would legitimately qualify as a “top 10 pg” in the game. Nope. You’re right. I don’t even comprehend stats. It’s obvious these ppg and asst. stats prove Jennings “isn’t even close” to being a top 10 pg.). (BAW.OMFG).
         (4) Dime magazine, a highly respected hoops magazine, just last year rates Jennings at #10 (2011-2013 season):
        http://dimemag.com/2011/12/top-10-nba-point-guards-in-the-game-today/2/
        And lastly, I’m calling you out for your cribbed list of 10 pg’s who are better than Jennings from the amateur Bleacher report: At least be original, Tim: http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1893578-ranking-the-top-10-point-guards-in-the-nba-after-2013-14-quarter-way-mark/page/12
        (PS: How’s that Moose logic working for you? You know, where you claim he’s a top 10 Center, but nowhere near a top 10 PF in the league? You never explained how this works (a) when he’s consistently playing as a center for us (e.g., does that mean he’s worth a max?), or (b) when he’s playing PF for us (then he’s “not even close to being top 10″ quoting you, so we can just trade him for some expirings)? I’m just confused, which is why I tried to settle it by calling him a “top 10 big.” Or are you going to argue that because Moose is our starting PF now, he is de facto not a Big anymore.)
        Please enlighten my incompetent ass.

        • Feb 13, 20144:33 pm
          by Max

          Reply

          I need the like button for this.   I’m no Jennings’ fan but I’m disgusted by some of the claims people make on these boards that he is not even a top 20-25 point guard.   People don’t have any respect for counting stats anymore but with all due respect to advanced metrics, I’m still old school enough to say that if a point guard is one of the top playmakers and scorers at his position than he is one of the top point guards period.   And I’d go further with the counting stats to include the fact that Jennings has finished in the top 10 in steals and three pointers made among all players in the league during previous seasons so Jennings is a prolific scorer, playmaker, three point shooter and thief.   Given all that, he’s got to at the very least be among the top 15-20 point guards and he’s probably better than that.  

          • Feb 13, 20145:23 pm
            by Tim Thielke

            Max, Jennings is definitely in the 10-20 range in spite of many deficiencies. Where in that range is debatable but I tend to put him in the 14-18 range.

            And people most definitely do respect counting stats. They just now realize that those aren’t everything.

            Without counting stats, Jennings looks abysmal. He actually has a well below average assist rate, he just touches the ball a ton. And he scores a lot, but once again, just by shooting the ball a ton. But there is value to simply being able to carry that heavy a load, even if not doing so in stellar fashion.

          • Feb 13, 20145:23 pm
            by oats

            I’m one of the people that has him outside the top 25. He’s arguably the worst shooter in basketball this year, and at best he’s simply among the worst. Giving him credit for being decent at getting points is just giving him credit for being absurdly irresponsible. He does ok in steals because he gambles a lot, but those gambles don’t pay off very often. He’s still one of the worst starters defensively in the league. He also gets credited with assists for passing it to Smith or Monroe and having them create a shot for themselves, so that number is slightly inflated. He’s only so so at protecting the ball and that limits how useful his passing numbers are. He also has a tendency to switch to hero ball in end game situations, which I suspect is one of the major causes of the team’s 4th quarter struggles. I add that all up and I have him as a really low end starter.

          • Feb 13, 20145:48 pm
            by Parsons

            I score him in the 18-22 range. He just is really inefficient, plays no D, and there are a lot of good PGs in this league. He has the talent to reach 8-14 but he isn’t there yet. You put him up next to Lawson or Holiday he loses. I count 19 PGs I’d take over him 20 if you count Knight. Oats covered his bad points and I just think they outweigh his good points. He’s young though maybe Lional Hollins (hopefully) will help him like he helped Holiday.

          • Feb 13, 20146:37 pm
            by Max

            Here are the worst starting point guards in the eastern conference in my opinion ranked in order of best to worst.  By my count, this list has 8 starting point guards in the eastern conference that are worse than Jennings which takes Jennings out of any discussion for being a bottom five starting point guard.  And there are teams in the west that have worse starting point guards too.  
            Brandon Jennings: 17.6 points, 8.1 assists, 3.3 rebounds, 1.5 steals, .1 blocks, 38 FG, 78 FT, 3.1 turnovers, 2 Threes on .344 3 point pct 
            Out of the nine players named here, Jennings is 2nd in points, 1st in assists,  5th in rebounding, 2nd in steals and ties for last in blocks–but who cares about blocks when we’re talking point guards?   He is 2nd to worst in field goal pct but he hits the 2nd most threes and only Chalmers and Hill can be said to be posting even respectable field goal percentages and none of them are posting good field goal percentages. 
            Kemba Walker: 18 points, 5.2 assists, 4.3 rebounds, 1.3 steals, .5 blocks, .413 FG, .803 FT, 2.4 turnovers, 1.5 threes on .345 3 point shooting
            Walker comes closest to Jennings on this list but the low assist numbers for Walker give a decisive edge to Jennings in my opinion.  
            Jeff Teague: 15.6 points, 7.6 assists, 2.6 rebounds, 1.2 steals, .2 blocks, .412 FG, .832 FT, 3.1 Turnovers, .7 3 pointers on .256 3 point shooting
            Jennings convincingly bests Teague in every counting stat other than blocks (which counts for nothing) and the biggest difference between them is that Teague is one of the worst 3 point shooters among starting point guards both in terms of how many he hits and his pct.  
            Jameer Nelson:  13 points, 6.6 assists, 3.5 rebounds, .8 steals, .1 blocks, .405 FG, .885 FT, 2.4 turnovers, 2.3 Threes on .377 3 point pct
            Jennings counting stats are much better and averaging less than a steal for a point guard is damning.  
            Brandon Knight:  16.7 points, 4.9 assists, 3.5 rebounds, .9 steals, .1 blocks, .414 FG, .82 FT, 2.8 Turnovers, 1.6 Threes on .347 Three point pct
            Knight’s .2 edge in rebounds and that he is only .9 points per game from equaling Jennings’ scoring is about the best that can be said for Knight in comparison to Jennings.  That he is an awful ball handler, something Jennings is great at, and an awful distributor, something Jennings is at least somewhat competent at, is decisive.  Jennings is much better.  
            George Hill: 11.1 points, 3.6 assists, 3.8 rebounds, 1 steal, .3 blocks, .451 FG, .833 FT, 1.3 turnovers, 1.4 threes on .372 3 point pct
            There’s an argument to be made for Hill based on his intangibles, defense and the Pacers record but he produces so little and probably couldn’t start at point guard for nearly any other team in the league other than the Heat because George and Stephenson largely take on the traditional roles of the point guard.  Hill accomplishes his meager numbers more efficiently than Jennings but from a counting perspective, Jennings blows him away.  
            Mario Chalmers: 9.7 points, 5 assists, 2.6 rebounds, 1.7 steals, .2 blocks, 463 FG, 764, FT, 2.3 turnovers, 1.2 Threes on .394 3 point pct
            See everything I said about George Hill except that there is no longer any argument to be made on his behalf.  
            Raymond Felton:  10.4 points, 5.9 assists, 2.8 rebounds, 1 steals, .5 blocks, .407 FG, 672 FT, 2.2 turnovres, 1 Three on .304 3 point pct
            No comparison here.  Jennings is far superior. 
            Kirk Heinrich:   8.3 points, 4.4 assists, 2.7 rebounds, 1.1 steals, .4 blocks, .364 FG (worse than Jennings), .808 FT, 1.8 turnovers, 1 Three on .378 3 point shooting
            Nothing to see here people.  

          • Feb 13, 20146:52 pm
            by Max

            @Tim  Without their counting stats, wouldn’t every player who ever played look abysmal? 

          • Feb 13, 20147:00 pm
            by Max

            @Oats
            I’m not sure I get your point about Jennings assists being inflated by Monroe and Smith as pretty much every point guard benefits from passing the ball to players who then get their own shot but it seems much more relevant to me to point out that Jennings assists are deflated by playing on the worst outside shooting team I’ve ever seen.   Pretty much every other starting point guard in the league has the benefit of passing the ball to outside shooters who actually make shots.   Jennings could be good at the drive and kick game but who would he pass to? 

          • Feb 13, 20149:43 pm
            by JYD for Life

            @Max – It’s not about counting stats or even defense.  At some point, you have to pass the eye test and Jennings doesn’t.  
            He doesn’t have command of this team and rarely sets up his teammates for easy baskets.  We could make a case that he doesn’t make anyone better, which is somewhat the responsibility of a PG.  
             
             

          • Feb 13, 20149:52 pm
            by Max

            @JYD For Life
            I’m not arguing that Jennings is a great player.  I’m just sick of people acting like he’s one of the worst starting point guards when he clearly is not.   Personally, I’d say less than 10 point guards would pass my eye test in terms of commanding his team and making people better.   Jennings doesn’t pass my eye test but then neither do most starting point guards.   The ones who do: Paul, Rondo, Rubio, Curry and maybe Lawson and Wall.  Russell Westbrook is probably a top ten player in the league but he doesn’t command his team like a general or make people better.   Passing that kind of eye test is just too high of a threshold.  

          • Feb 13, 201410:49 pm
            by Tim Thielke

            Max, I wasn’t saying that if you zeroed out his counting stats, he’d look abysmal. I was saying that if you don’t pay attention to them he would. This was in response to your “People don’t have any respect for counting stats anymore”.

          • Feb 13, 201411:10 pm
            by JYD for Life

            @Max – I’m by no means saying he’s in the crowd of the worst PGs, but he is somewhere in the middle.  Also, I think the Pistons should make the trade for him 10 times out of 10…but would have preferred to make that deal if Smith wasn’t on the team (that’s neither here nor there though).  You’re right that he would look better with a more conventional lineup around him…especially with two shooters/defenders at the wing positions.  That would cover up a ton of his defensive shortcomings.  
             
            While you’re spot on about Westbrook (he’s with Dragic and Bledsoe, Lillard, etc)…but you forgot Conley, Parker, Calderon, D. Williams (when healthy), Lowry(at times).  I think Jameer Nelson has great control of his team as well.  
             
            It’s crazy how few “true” point guards there are.  
             
            I’m not sure where I would put George Hill, but I think he would be a perfect fit with our roster.  He’s efficient, poised and can hit shots.  I think he would be a prototypical dump-it-down and step behind the 3 pt line guy, could run the pick and roll and plays very solid defense (and rebounds well).   His counting stats would be higher on a team like the Pistons because we lack two wings who create shots.  He just seems like a guy who can adapt and transition seamlessly.  

          • Feb 13, 201411:15 pm
            by Max

            I know.  I was trying to be funny. 

          • Feb 13, 201411:24 pm
            by Max

            My last comment about comedy was for Tim.  
            This one is @JYD
            I didn’t forget about any of those mentioned.  The threshold wasn’t just command of his team but actually making other players better.  That’s a very high bar.  And Jameer Nelson couldn’t even make entry passes in the post to Dwight Howard very well.   
            I’m glad we mostly seem to agree about Jennings.    We are not of like mind concerning George Hill.  From what I have seen he is less of a playmaker than Rodney Stuckey and certainly less of one than Brandon Jennings.    George Hill is a combo guard who has looked good on the Pacers because absurdly little has been asked of him in comparison to other starting point guards and his team wins.   I’m not trying to discredit him but I just don’t think he’s really a point guard.   I didn’t like watching a non playmaker point guard like Brandon Knight leading the Stones the last couple of years and I have no wish to return to such a situation.    

          • Feb 14, 20141:17 am
            by oats

            @ Max. Teague wins shooting efficiency with a true shooting percentage of .506 to .496. He plays fewer minutes which hurts his counting stats a bit. Per 36 minutes he puts up 17.5 points, 8.1 assists, and 3.5 turnovers. Jennings puts up 17.6 points, 8.1 assists, and 3.1 turnovers. That’s pretty close to a wash overall with Jennings protecting the ball and Teague shooting a bit bettr, but Teague is a better overall defender and I’d have him narrowly edging out Jennings for that reason.
             
            Nelson is also limited in minutes. His per 36 of 14.2 points, 7.2 assists, and 2.7 turnovers is not as good as what Jennings puts up though. They do have a virtually identical assists to turnover ratio. The difference between a true shooting percentage of .539 and .496 is huge, and it trumps the counting stats because of just how many shots Jennings is wasting.
             
            Knight is yet another limited minutes guy compared to Jennings. His per 36 numbers are 18.8 points, 5.5 assists, and 3.1 turnovers. Not only does he score more on a per minute basis, but he’s more efficient with a true shooting percentage of .518. Knight’s also a better overall defender. I still give Jennings the edge because Knigth’s assist to turnover ratio is so terrible that he’s not really a PG, but I’m unconvinced that Jennings is the better player. That’s pretty damning for me.
             
            Hill also has a bit of a minutes thing going on. 12.8 points, 4.1 assists, and 1.5 turnovers is a little bit better. This is also where system is a huge factor. Indiana doesn’t use Hill as the primary ball handler and instead splits that duty between George, Stephenson, and Hill. That’s largely a strategic decision. Hill’s got two things that give him the edge. He has a ridiculous true shooting percentage of .579 and he’s a great defensive player. Jennings is absolutely the better offensive player despite his shooting woes, but the defense thing gives Hill a big advantage.
             
            Felton, Hinrich, Chalmers, Knight, and probably Walker are worse than him, although Walker is close. I’d also give Jennings the edge on the Houston guys and Burke right now. I also think that Phoenix has 2 guys that are better than Jennings. So I guess I was wrong to have him outside the top 25. I have him at 24th though.

        • Feb 13, 20145:02 pm
          by Tim Thielke

          Reply

          I’m done dealing with you if you continue to ignore every point I make and then claim I never made any. It’s very obnoxious and I don’t think that we can have reasonable, productive discourse. Troll someone else. But I will clarify a couple things for you here starting with a mere copy and paste of my previous comment:

          “Anyway, I know this is probably folly to ask, but what is your rationale for why a player who is dead last in the league in FG% (min 500 attempts), turns the ball over more than three times per game, is 26th amongst PGs in assist rate, and doesn’t play a lick of defense–explain how that guy is a top ten PG. And then, since you didn’t answer this before, explain why a guy who is obviously top ten gets basically no interest in free agency.”

          As for the PF vs C thing with Monroe, I believe I fully explained this, but I’ll try again because you are unusually unable to follow my logic (admitted, it can be a bit complicated at times, but this isn’t one of those times and most people can follow it anyway):

          Monroe is probably a top 10 C because there aren’t many very good Cs in the league. Gasol, Noah, Hibbert, Howard, Drummond, and Lopez. That’s about it. And some of those are arguably PFs. There are a ton of good PFs, so Monroe isn’t top ten there. Love, Griffin, Nowitzki, Bosh, Millsap, Ibaka, Aldridge, West, Smith, Randolph, Lee, and Young. And that’s before you hit all the iffy guys like Davis, Cousins, Horford, Duncan, Sanders, Henson, and Jefferson.

          So yeah, I guess if you count all those guys as Cs, Monroe isn’t a top 10 C. But I consider those to be kinda a 50/50 split. And not every name I put out there is necessarily better than Monroe, but most of them are right now.

          And here’s where your supreme lack of understanding comes in: obviously Monroe is not a top 10 big man, because big men include PFs and Cs giving him even more competition. Kinda like Rudy Gay is a top 10 SF, but he is definitely not a top 10 forward.

          And once more, because you didn’t get it the first time, the 2004 Pistons were not comparable to today’s Heat because today’s Heat were less of an “insta-championship” and went through more growing pains. It took them two full seasons after putting together their core to win it all. It took the Pistons less than half of one to do the same.

          I have no problems with “insta-championships”. They’re just as good as any other kind. You’re the one who said they’re less legitimate without growing pains. I just pointed out that you were calling out the Pistons more than the Heat in doing so.

          • Feb 13, 20148:56 pm
            by pablum

            test.I’m going to write something, but my trophy wife fucked with my computer and now I have to see if this works.

        • Feb 13, 20145:37 pm
          by oats

          Reply

          @ pablum. I have to address this evidence you are using because it’s largely not sound.
           
          1) That’s a projection for who will be better going forward, not who is better right now. It’s also only looking at free agents in that given year, so being top 3 in that doesn’t prove that he is top 10 over all.
           
          2) That ranking is his fantasy basketball ranking at PG. Actual value and fantasy value are very different things.
           
          3) Only looking at points per game and ignoring shooting efficiency is a bad use of stats. He’s among the worst shooters in the league, and the fact that he is scoring points at a decent clip just means that he’s missing tons of shots. That’s not something to reward him for.
           
          4) Any list that has Jason Kidd as the 9th best PG last year is idiotic. The author also admits to being biased, points out the fact that Jennings can’t shoot, and then just proceeds to ignore that fact. As “expert” opinions go, that is a really bad one.
           

          • Feb 13, 20146:46 pm
            by Max

            I disagree that Jennings can’t shoot because in my opinion, any player that hits 2 threes a game or more on an acceptable pct can shoot.  Jennings does this every year.   His overall pct is terrible but his 3 point pct is at least acceptable.   Also, he is not even close to one of the worst shooters in the league.   For one thing, there are a hell of a lot of players who are so bad at outside shooting that they don’t take outside shots.   Jennings is definitely a better shooter than all of these players.  For another thing, there are several players shooting an even lower overall field goal pct like Ricky Rubio. 

          • Feb 13, 201410:19 pm
            by pablum

            Okay, it seems to be working. Okay Tim, I have the most to respond to you, so I’ll respectfully save you for last.
            Oats: My boy, you are brilliant. but you have obviously and transparently never actually played competitive hoops. I have no problem boasting: I was a short Jew with a hook and J that could fucking play. An I did. On Detroit Hoops grounds for 30 years, I-75 and Mack, yes sir. I did. So this is what that means. Any player who faces Brandon Jennings knows he can go fucking off at anytime. They know this because of his nearly incomparable speed and ball handling skills. He’s a fucking blur on the court, at a different speed than nearly every one else, and people who play the game fear this shit more than anything else. Hell, yes, we do.  All warriors on the court will admit this. Sped kills and inspires fear and none of your fucking analyticals are equipped to comprehend this. (my bad for the stat, but the evaluation is fair.)
            Max: Ah, another brilliant savant I see…
            Tim: Ah where to start, cause I’m still very confused. Let’s just start say with the recent chronology of your posts. Your first post since I called you out was a response to Max, where you said some revealing words. “[Jennings"] is in the 10-20 range.” You actually said it’ I thought. B, Jennings could be considered a “10″ pg in the league. I was happy. Felt warm fuzzies for a second, until I was bashed for espousing this very same view in your very next post to me, and, later blasted for my “supreme” mis/ill comprehension and mental infirmity on Monroe and sundry maters, even bullying, eh, well okay then. I’ll unpack, briefly:
            (1) Why did you repaste that same analytics argument against Jennings to me when you first used that argument to say he was “not even close to being a top 10?” You replied to Max Jennings was a top 10 range. You typed the #10. Yet you repaste that post to me to argue that I never addressed these questions/stats about Jennings that prove he is “not even a top 10 pg.”? Here’s the best part. You go on to chastise me for not being able to follow your logic. It’s like Sartre, there’s “No Exit.” I more than proved with my sources that it was eminently reasonable to put Jennings as a top 10 pg. That was my response, Tim.
            (2) Monroe: I have no way of knowing through what you have written here whether you even think Greg Monroe is even a good player and I defy anyone to read what you’ve written here and prove otherwise. Moose is only a good Center because NBA Centers are lousy, you say. Moose in not a very good PF because the NBA is loaded with good PFs, you say. So what the fuck are you saying? I said he was a top 10- Big and I stand by every word of it. His youth/energy, speed/for a Big/ his power and legit O game makes him a powerful force on the court.  He could get the better of most of the PFs you cite here in a playoff series. easily. Anyone that plays can see it. But again, in these cases, best to go to the gambling community for objective verdicts. Wonder what the odds are Moose gets that Max or near Max? — that’s top 10 Big proof, no mater how you, Thielke, want to diminish it.
            (3)Miami Heat v. 2004 Detroit Pistons:
            Tim, don’t you get that people in Detroit would laugh their asses off if they read your words here?! I’m dead serious. Go to the downtown Detroit Police Station and read what you wrote here to a bunch of vet Detroit cops…. (OMFG to be there in the moment).
            “Clearly Pablum, you’ve never stood up to a bully.” — Read that to the Detroit cops too.
            “Confirmation bias,” Tim? Really? Like, um, Quantum Mechanics…
             
             

          • Feb 13, 201411:05 pm
            by Tim Thielke

            Do you not understand that someone can be in the 10-20 range and not be top 10? In fact, 90% of the time, they won’t be. Further down in the very same post, I said that I’d put him in the 14-18 range to be more specific.

            So your argument is that there are stupid people in Detroit? I mean, that’s true and all, but there are also smart people there. And it is also a “____ would happen if ____” argument for which you provided no evidence that ____ would in fact happen. So besides the fact that your claim doesn’t prove anything, it is purely speculative and I could just as easily state the opposite. This is why I call you incompetent. You don’t seem to understand that the arguments you’re making don’t have any merit–not because I dismiss them but because logic does.

            Also, confirmation bias is when you have predetermined your conclusion such that you perceive as supporting evidence facts which do not support it or perhaps even contradict it. Quantum mechanics is a theory about how electrons can only have certain distinct energy levels and not intermediate ones. Those aren’t even close to related. So I’m not sure where you were going with that.

          • Feb 14, 20141:29 am
            by oats

            @ Max. Jennings is below average on 3s at .344, and he had 2 years where he was downright bad. Taking 6 3s a game and making 2 of them does not make a guy a good shooter. True shooting percentage rewards a guy for being a good 3 point shooter, and Jennings has a true shooting percentage of .496. That is bad for an NBA player.
             
            @ pablum. Jennings is definitely fast, I’ll grant you that. He just doesn’t translate that speed into meaningful production very often. The ability to go off from time to time doesn’t make up for all the bad or mediocre games that happen far more often.

          • Feb 14, 20149:05 am
            by Huddy

            @pablum there are lots of players with elite athletic ability that don’t put it all together to be NBA stars (James flight white, terrico white, etc).  I’m sure Jennings impresses you with his speed and potential to go off, but if he doesn’t have he ability to use those things to do so more than once in a while it is irrelevant.
             
            if you don’t care about how poorly he shoots or does anything really on a regular basis(stats) and are relying on your hoops experience from your glory days then you are never going to believe what anyone else has to say or change anyone’s mind.  your opinion is based on a belief that playing basketball well is a prerequisite for understanding the game, which numerous failed pro players turned coaches/GMs and numerous non player turned coaches will show you is false.

          • Feb 14, 201412:53 pm
            by pablum

            @TimThielke — You’re making it too easy:
            (1) You emphatically have stated many times Jennings is “not even close” to  being a top 10 PG. Then you write to Max the he’s in the “10″ — “20″ range. Do you not understand your own words? Seriously? If you say he’s in the “10″– “20″ range you cannot consequently say he’s “not even close to being” in the top 10. You logically cannot. Break down to set theory, or use a Venn diagram. It’s a logical impossibility.
            (2) You write about the Pistons but no nothing about Detroit and the history of their Detroit fans. This is a massive blind spot for you. The 2004 team was a Blue-Collar Go to Work team and the city loved them for it! We loved them because the way that team came together, without a superstar, after 3 seasons of paying our dues, to win a title — that reflected our lives, our hopes, our experience. You live in an utter fantasy world if you think this doesn’t mean anything. And to compare that team to the 3 superstar Heat team that went to the championship its first year(!) — and you dared call that growing pains! — is an INSULT to Detroiters. And it is stunning you do not know this.
            (3) “confirmation bias theory” And quantum Mechanics. (Stop using a dictionary to look up what these terms mean). Here’s what I was saying: (a) why would you bring “confirmation bias theory” into this discussion? It’s pretentious. (b) I was trying to out-pretentious you by comparing your “confirmation bias theory” to quantum mechanics, but if you need a little lesson of the clear relation between the two it is this: (and I’ll set aside the fact that confirmation bias theory is “dated” and much of this work is now conducted in terms of “implicit bias” theory,” but whaddever: So here’s the deal Tim. “Heisenberg’s uncertainty principle” is a a crucial theory of quantum mechanics which directly contradicts Newtonian Physics. It does so because it posits that individual subjectivity itself is an agency in determining reality (not in a solopsistic frame, but an actual atomic frame). This incredibly difficult thesis is generally and famously articulated in the basic idea that you cannot know both the speed and location of a sub-atomic particle and consequently it is the individual subject that actually produces this determination, hence, individual subjectivity determines this material reality. And that is the pretentious relation I was making…

          • Feb 14, 20142:08 pm
            by JYD for Life

            What we’ve got here is a ball fight…watch out Tim, Pablum’s got some game.
            Enjoy All-Star weekend, everyone!   
             
            http://youtu.be/2JHV5pZQpoc  
             

          • Feb 14, 20142:59 pm
            by Tim Thielke

            1) Jennings is in the 10-20 range. The lower end of it. I could see someone debating that he’s on the higher end. I’d disagree, but I wouldn’t consider them inane. You think he is definitely top 10. That is inane. He is not close to being so because the 10th best PG isn’t merely slightly better than Jennings, he’s much better. But there is no point arguing over what the word “close means”. Different people have different ideas, some might think #12 isn’t close, some might think #40 is close. So let’s put it in these terms: Jennings is a below average starting PG.

            2) Yeah I’m not replying to this one anymore because you have no reading comprehension. How many times have I told you I am not comparing the 2004 Pistons to the current Heat? I contrasted them. I compared them to your description of the Heat because they fit that. I loved those Pistons too. They were really, really awesome. That’s why I resent your claim that championships are less legitimate when they are earned quickly.

            3) Confirmation bias isn’t a theory, it’s a logical fallacy–one of many you have made. Also, I don’t care if you find my verbiage pretentious, I’m not adapting my speech patterns or diminishing my lexicon on account of your insecurities. Besides, I’m not bringing unrelated topics into this conversation to try to sound smart. 

          • Feb 14, 20148:18 pm
            by pablum

            (1) Okay then. Again. You didn’t say the number “10″ before . You said the opposite. And called me incompetent in various ways and combinations for saying it.
            (2) Yeah. You’re not owning your words in print. You said the 2004 Pistons “were an instant champion if there ever was one.” It is a supremely ignorant statement that ignores any historical context of that team and its Detroit base fans. And you’re going Clinton and it depends on what the definition of “is” is when you’re splicing the meaning of “compare” with “contrast.”
            (3) Stop the personal attacks, please, as I kindly asked you. Here’s a link to one of thousands of articles written since the 1960′s that deal with confirmation bias theory:Confirmation bias, as the term is typically used in the psychological literature, connotes the seeking or interpreting of evidence in ways that are partial to existing beliefs, expectations, or a hypothesis in hand. The author reviews evidence of such a bias in a variety of guises and gives examples of its operation in several practical contexts. Possible explanations are considered, and the question of its utility or disutility is discussed. (PsycINFO Database Record (c) 2012 APA, all rights reserved)
             
             
             

      • Feb 13, 201412:25 pm
        by pablum

        Reply

        Yeah, I figured you’d have nothing to say. Because you tried to bully me in print by basically calling me an incompetent ass.
        But like any bully, when you stand up for yourself with the truth, they run away…

        • Feb 13, 20142:31 pm
          by pablum

          Reply

          Good god man, have you no respect for the basic social contract that has been honored by writers and their readership for centuries? I have presented you with facts from major media sports sources (ESPN, SI, Yahoo, Dime) that all contradict your your several stated claims in print that Brandon Jennings is “not even close to being a top 10 pg” — and you have absolutely nothing to say. Nothing. It is an act of obvious literary cowardice rationalized by some unstated ideal that ignoring someone on the internet is the most effective way to silence them and mark them as imbalanced.
          But I shall not let this tacit strategy of yours avail. Again, you have been presented with facts in print in nationally established sports media that directly contradict your argument about Brandon Jennings. By not responding to these arguments, made by established professionals in your field, (I presume on the basis of the rationalization I have described), YOU are in fact setting a precedent as a journalist on this site that you will not be accountable for your words. That is, in fact, a very real consequence of your refusal to respond to the facts I presented. And it completely compromises your integrity as a professional writer. Believe it, sir. 

          • Feb 13, 20143:05 pm
            by Huddy

            Brandon Jennings: (among PGs)
            14th PPG 12th STLS 7th Assists (worse than) 25th in REB Last FG% 11th most TOs 17th AST/TO ratio
            He is a terrible defender in general as well by old and new school standards.  You don’t like stats so with your eye what do you see on D?  I see a guy who often allows PGs to blow by him and I am not the only one.  How often do you see his talent and potential allow him to go off and positively impact the team?  once every 5 games or so?  It doesn’t matter if he has the capability on a given night to do something.  What matters is that on average throughout the long NBA season he shoots very poorly (the worst) and defends very poorly.  National writers do not praise and go on and on about his potential and ability and neither do the 29 other professional basketball minds in charge of teams in the NBA who had no interest in him this past off season. 
             
            The only thing he is top 10 in is assists and he worsens that mark with his TOs.  You might have a reasonable argument if it is important to you to defend that he is closer than “not even close” to a top 10, but the semantics of not even close could be such that a few guys fall in that realm making it less of a distinguishing mark for Jennings anyway.

          • Feb 13, 20144:03 pm
            by pablum

            (1) Comments appreciated Huddy, but this isn’t your fight. This about whether Tim will be accountable for his words or not here, and to his very field of profession. Now you can peg me as a whack-job on this, but I’m not special. There’s nothing stopping Tim from ignoring anyone else here if they too present facts and/or professional opinions that contradict what he puts out in print. Nothing. If Tim’s fine with that reputation, so be it.
            (2) The yahoo stats on Jennings that I linked are current to yesterday, 2/12/14: He is 7th in ppg; 4th in asst., for NBA pgs. The figures you quote must not account for minimum games required out the 50 that have been played.
            (3) Yes, Jennings defense is bad. But he is just 24. And his bad D did not stop Dime mag. from ranking him #10 in 2011/12. Did not stop ESPN from ranking him#13 today. Did not stop Joe D. from trading 3 players, two of whom (Knight/Middleton), are legit NBA players, for him. Did not stop league wide evaluation of the trade as a very good trade for the Pistons (including on these very pages).
            (4) Here is an excellent article on why GM’s shunned Jennings: http://www.bballbreakdown.com/why-brandon-jennings-is-still-a-free-agent/
            The gist is two-fold: (a) Bucks said they would match ANY offer for him. (Do you do this if you don’t believe a player has great talent?). (b) Per this article, Jennings (via his agent) did not want ANYONE to offer him a contract last year, so he could be an UN-Restricted free agent this year. Actually fascinating stuff.
            (5)….Hear that?… That’s Tim’s deafening silence…

          • Feb 13, 20144:03 pm
            by JYD for Life

            I would say that with proper coaching/mentorship, it seems like Jennings has the talent and is young enough to turn it around.  
             
            At some point though, you can’t teach effort and a lot of playing defense is desire (to play within a system and with energy).  
             
            It’s also good to point out that he sees the floor better than most PGs I watch.  However, there’s a difference between getting 10 assists per game and actually running an offense and putting guys in position to succeed.  I’ve yet to see him adequately run the offense (though you could argue Cheeks didn’t have one).  
             
            Right now, his performance is like trick or treating…you don’t know if you’re getting a king-sized snickers or the unwrapped candy that someone throws in your bag with a few pennies. 

          • Feb 13, 20144:20 pm
            by Birdman84

            The fact that Joe Dumars paid a significant price to acquire Jennings may actually be a point against Jennings being all that great.

          • Feb 13, 20144:29 pm
            by JYD for Life

            I wouldn’t say that was a “significant” price…two good bench players for a low-end starting PG isn’t terrible.  It’s just unfortunate that Knight and Middleton might be better fits for this roster right now.  

          • Feb 13, 20144:29 pm
            by Huddy

            Dime mag dropped him from 10 to 14 the following year and in the actual description qualified his ranking with hopes he improves shot selection with a better supporting class, which he hasn’t.
             
            the 50 game limit leaves out obviously better players due to injury and isn’t just as valid as basing your opinion on Jennings ranking from the 2012 season as opposed to this season.

          • Feb 13, 20144:41 pm
            by Huddy

            @pablum in addition defenes is half the game and if you are going to dismiss his huge disparity in half the game because he has “only” been in the league 4 years then almost any young PG is potentially top 10.  If you can qualify the argument by saying the player might improve drastically in half of his game then you have low standards for top 10.  All the better defensive guards might improve their offense and by your logic are just as likely to be top 10.

          • Feb 13, 20144:43 pm
            by Max

            @Huddy
            The primary thing to measure any point guard by is assists and Jennings is either elite or close to elite in that regard this year.    The turnovers are high but not incredibly high and turnovers are an area that Jennings has actually been solid with throughout his career.   Last year he was either elite or close to elite in regards to turnovers.   As for the defense, I do think he puts in a lot of effort but is terrible anyway.   Still, there’s probably no such thing anymore as a lock down defender at point guard and the best defensive point guards still can’t really stay in front of the point guards they are guarding.   This isn’t really any defense of Jennings but I’d make two points.   One: the Bucks experienced at least a year or two with Jennings starting when they finished in the top two in terms of defensive numbers so Jennings CAN start for a great defensive team.  Two: Steve Nash was one of the worst defensive players to ever play in the NBA and he won back to back MVPs—though I thought he wasn’t even a top five player at that time.  

          • Feb 13, 20148:17 pm
            by Huddy

            @max I agree there probably aren’t any lock down point guards, but the fact that asking for an A+ isn’t fair doesn’t make an F acceptable.  You are right about Steve Nash, but he didn’t accomplish those things because he was bad at D(not that that is what you were saying) but he accomplished those things in spite of his lack of D.  For Jennings to accomplish similar things he would have to significantly improve in areas that Nash was significantly better in.  If Jennings was where Nash was while he was doing those things without D then this wouldn’t be a discussion.
            Assists are more important than rebounds or steals for a PG, but if they were that much more important than all other factors Grevis Vaquez would be starting right now.  the TOs make his assists less impressive and while you may feel they aren’t “that high” by comparison to other starters they are Pretty bad.  I would also be much more willing to focus on areas like assists with our PG if he didn’t hurt in so many others.  I mentioned defense, but he plays like a shoot first PG and shoot poorly.  If he got 8 assists a game, but choose his shot carefully like a Jose Calderon that would be one thing, but when you take and miss as many as BJ he is simply wasting possessions for the team that may not show up as TOs, but hurt all the same.  He needs to shoot more than Jose, but I know you watch the games and the number of times he shoots before exploring other options is obvious.

          • Feb 13, 20149:11 pm
            by Max

            @Huddy  
            I didn’t say assists were the only factor in judging point guard play but the primary factor.   Regarding your point about Grevis Vasquez, assists were a big enough factor last year for him to beat out a player I consider better than him for the starting role.   This year he is sitting because he is behind a player who has produced the 7th most assists in Kyle Lowry and he is better than Vasquez in every other area of the game.  Still, I’m absolutely certain that there are at least a handful of teams who would start Vasquez over their current starter and I believe Toronto traded for him with the thinking they would start him as soon as they traded Lowry but he played so well after the trade that it seems they now don’t want to trade him.   In any case, Vasquez is a valuable asset in the NBA right now and I believe he will get another starting job and have a return to prominence.   
            Also, I never said Jennings was as good as Nash or even close.  My point was more about the idea that a player could still be one of the top players in the league while playing defense even worse than Jennings does and we are not talking about whether Jennings is one of the top players in the league but about whether he belongs among the top 10-20 point guards which a lot people on these boards have been disputing since he’s been a Piston.  
            Further, I simply don’t agree with you about the turnovers taking any shine whatsoever off of Jennings’ assists.   If you look at the assist leaders for the year, every single one of the top players, with the exception of Lowry, has been turning the ball over at least 2.6 times a game and almost all of them have been turning the ball over as often as Jennings if not more.  
            TOP TEN PLAYERS IN ASSISTS WITH THEIR TURNOVERS
            Chris Paul                  11.1    2.6
            Stephon Curry             9.0    4.1
            Ty Lawson                   8.8   3.1
            John Wall                     8.5   3.5
            Ricky Rubio                  8.3   2.7
            Brandon Jennings         8.1   3.1
            Jrue Holiday                 7.9  3.1
            Kyle Lowry                  7.6   2.3
            Jeff Teague                 7.2   3.1
            LeBron James             6.6  3.5
             
            Only Kyle Lowry among this list could be said to have a low turnover number and only Chris Paul can be added as putting up decent turnover numbers.   3 out of the 10 are compiling more turnovers than Jennings and 3 others are putting up the same number as Jennings.   That means that out of the top 10 players in assists that 6 out of the 9 aren’t doing any better at protecting the ball than Jennings.  The bottom line, and this is true historically, is that the overwhelming majority of players who put up high assist numbers also put up high turnover numbers.  

          • Feb 14, 20148:54 am
            by Huddy

            @max I know you don’t think he is as good as Nash, my point is Nash brings very little to this discussion.  Nash proves that it isn’t impossible that Jennings could reach that level…and that’s its (reminds me of people using Chauncey as an example of why Knohht was going to become a play maker).  A player has done it without defense before…ok and when they day comes that Jennings is at the same level as Nash in other parts of his game that will be relevant to the discussion, as of today he isn’t there and isnt making up for his defense in the way Nash did.
             
            i conceded I am being to hard on assists.  What that tells me is that Jennings is top 10 in assists, bottom of the barrel on D, and bottom of the barrel in scoring efficiency.  His ppg are good but not when you look at how he gets them.  That’s why don’t prop assists up to high because it holds more weight but doesnt cover up all his other issues.  Vasquez probably would start on a handful of teams, I agree, but that alone doesn’t bring him in the top 10′race and the same goes for Jennings.  He is young but 4 seasons in he is running out of time to address the issues in his game and break out of that 14-18 range because new guys are always coming with the same goal.

        • Feb 13, 20145:08 pm
          by Tim Thielke

          Reply

          Clearly, pablum, you’ve never stood up to a legit bully. They don’t run away, they pulverize you. I’ve been on both sides of that far too many times.

          Also, do note your use of confirmation bias.When another site agrees with me (even one as mediocre as bleacher report), you act like that’s evidence against me rather than for me. That’s some really weak logic.

  • Feb 13, 20143:20 am
    by grizz3741

    Reply

    I am going to be optimistic about Loyer and the Pistons for 5 more games … What the hell …

  • Feb 13, 20144:42 am
    by I HATE LOSING (Predicting A Strong Finish)

    Reply

    Nothing against Loyer but it is weird that we actually have one of the top two available coaches basically begging to coacu the Pistons…a guy we showed interest so what….but not aggressively looking him down…
    But we will wait and take shots a coaches that have not expressed interest in Detroit at all?
    Heres what I think happen Dumars wanted Hollins….Gore wanted Cheeks…owner gets what he wants….Dumars figured Cheeks is probably gonna fail…..for all the same reason Dan thought….so he offered Hollins the ast.coach position…..Hollins classic act…knows it would be unfair Cheeks declines….
    Gore might be a gambling man, but to me you could catch lighting in a bottle with Hollins and Loyer

    • Feb 13, 201411:28 am
      by oats

      Reply

      The Pistons transaction history has Cheeks as getting hired on May 15 and Hollins wasn’t available until June, so that can’t be right.
       
      Reports say that Phil was pushing Shaw and Dumars was pushing McMillan. Gores was said to be leaning towards Shaw, but who knows how accurate that is. Cheeks apparently came up as a compromise option somehow, but I don’t think I’ve heard any rumors on who was really backing him.

      • Feb 13, 20143:50 pm
        by I HATE LOSING (Predicting A Strong Finish)

        Reply

        All I know he Dumars during the first press conference was not excited about Cheeks at all

      • Feb 13, 20144:12 pm
        by JYD for Life

        Reply

        That’s correct…Hollins was not available until after we had agreed to a deal with Cheeks.  George Karl was out there…and not a ton else.  
         
        The biggest issue is if we were still “rebuilding” or “tanking,” Cheeks was fine to lead a group that had no expectations.  We were sold on the fact that he was going to teach Knight how to be a PG and to work with the young kids like he did in OKC (ignoring the fact that he was “mentoring” two of the top 10 players in the league…not hard to do). 
        Brian Shaw would have been fine for this too.  
        It seems like there was/is definitely a power struggle between Joe and Tom because you don’t hire Cheeks if you have championship aspirations and are going for it this year.  It’s almost like the hire was made, then Gores said “no, no, no…we need to go all in this year.”  
         
        So my guess would be that they mutually agreed upon Cheeks – thinking that he had been in the Playoffs before and might coach them to that point, but nothing beyond the first round.  All while developing the kids for two years and then they would get a solid coach to hit the next level.  
        Something changed when Smith was interested or Gores got antsy and things become murky at best…who knows?  

  • Feb 13, 20144:43 am
    by @GPMasters

    Reply

    Utterly nightmarish again in the 4th… it was a vital game in terms of playoff standings, especially with the Charlotte games coming up

  • Feb 13, 20145:06 am
    by MoATL

    Reply

    My main issue with Loyer was not responding on the runs the Cavs were having. I was waiting for a timeout in the 3rd and 4th qtr runs by them when he tried to let them play it out. 
    Also I am a fan of playing to our strengths and being big however Singled at SG and Jerebko at SF, yikes

  • Feb 13, 20148:51 am
    by Vic

    Reply

    All of the bigs were beasts tonight.
     
    But they can’t win the game by themselves, this game was completely lost on guard play, defense and offense.
     
    They jacked up too many missed shots, they stop moving the ball in the fourth quarter, and they didnt play defense.
     
    As a coach, if I see Jannings having an all miss night, Stuckey out of it, and will Binom playing with his Darkside: I’m going to start running plays for KCP to see if I can develop his talent. We already know what we have With everyone else, but KCP is an untapped potential. You need that weapon on offense so give him a chance to try To get his alpha dog on.

    • Feb 13, 201410:42 am
      by Huddy

      Reply

      Jennings has been getting off easy in the comments lately.  I get that it is apparently really trendy to hate on Monroe lately, but Jennings goes 3/14 with 5 assits and horrible defense (contributing to Tristan Thompson going off by letting his man walk by as mentioned in the grades) and all anyone wants to talk about is how useless Monroe’s 16/9/5 game on better than 50% shooting is.  I don’t defend his defense as being good, great or even average, but how can people possibly watch the game, look at the box score, and come to the conclusion that Greg was the primary issue tonight?

      • Feb 13, 201412:13 pm
        by Kamal

        Reply

        Huddy, you have to understand, Jennings makes big time showstopping threes.  And Drummond and Smith make big time show stopping blocks and dunks.  They’re exciting even though they are all extremely flawed.  Jennings shot 3-14 last night and .380 for the season, he can’t guard anybody, but hey, he made a big time 3 in Irving’s face last night – he’s good.  
         
        But Monroe?  He’s boring.  He doesn’t dunk, block shots so he must suck.  He’s got to go.  The funny thing is that most people who complain about Monroe’s defense never  realize that he didn’t have to slide over to help Jennings after he gets beat, his man would not be open for those wide open jumpers and dunks.

        • Feb 13, 201412:49 pm
          by Vic

          Reply

          Its just a general lack of bball IQ and lust for muscles athleticism and quickness… kind of like a girl watching a football game.
          I just ignore people like that now.

          • Feb 13, 20141:10 pm
            by Vic

            like some idiot at Bleacher Report used this video 
            http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=2xcY7kBRazo
            to show that Monroe was a bad defender.
            But Brandon Jennings is playing the Spanish matador to John Wall.
            Then if John Wall would have dished to Nene for the dunk, they would have put the same video up to show that Greg Monroe is a sorry defender.

          • Feb 13, 20144:14 pm
            by JYD for Life

            That’s awesome! 

            Just keep that handy whenever anyone makes a positive statement about Jennings.   

          • Feb 13, 20144:15 pm
            by JYD for Life

            or like you said…bashes Greg’s defense. 

        • Feb 13, 20149:16 pm
          by jg22

          Reply

          Monroe is soft and afraid of the moment in the 4th. I don’t care how boring a player is if they  come up big in crunch time. He does not. He’s no Tim Duncan if that’s the analogy you are making.

  • Feb 13, 20148:54 am
    by Vic

    Reply

    And Singler is worthless if he’s missing shots especially at SG… Because there you don’t have his defense either.

    • Feb 13, 201411:11 am
      by zdh

      Reply

      Singler is way too inconsistent to be a starter, but so is KCP right now. I guess I would prefer to give KCP more run and bring Singler off the bench.

      • Feb 13, 201412:51 pm
        by Vic

        Reply

        Yes. This is sensible, because with Singler – you know what you have. 
        With KCP, you can develop and give confidence and give him a chance to grow wings, you know like the smart teams are doing with their rookies.

  • Feb 13, 20148:57 am
    by Vic

    Reply

    So basically three bigs having great games, and they still lost. The primary reason is because 5 guards gave them nothing, and KCP was underutilized.

    • Feb 13, 20141:51 pm
      by lisa

      Reply

      I wouldn’t say the three bigs had a great game, but a good game, especially the first half. It was our guards that lost the game or the lack of guards. They shot poorly, guarded poorly, and didn’t move the ball from side to side or shared it unless the shot clock was low. Plus, they turned the ball over! 

  • Feb 13, 20149:14 am
    by koz

    Reply

    pistons got no baller to come in and close out the ninth

  • Feb 13, 201410:07 am
    by Rich

    Reply

    KCP is barely playing these days and the level of his play fits that. So it’s a chicken-and-egg question. Is his role diminishing because he is stinking it up, or does he need lots of minutes in order to play well?
     
    Well, given that he wasn’t playing well with a lot of minutes either, it’s not very chicken-or-egg at all.

    • Feb 13, 201411:33 am
      by oats

      Reply

      He put up 8.5 points with a .545 true shooting percentage and played good defense in the month of January. That’s darn good for a rookie in a small role.

      • Feb 13, 20144:18 pm
        by JYD for Life

        Reply

        but hey…he’s no Trey Burke!  (100% joking)  
         
        KCP needs to play more and be allowed to shoot.  It seemed like Loyer was encouraging him to shoot against the Spurs.  Hopefully there’s more of that to come.  Slide Singler over to the SF spot and bring KCP back…see how the defense looks then.  What do they have to lose? 
         

    • Feb 13, 201411:36 am
      by Jon

      Reply

      He’s been their best perimeter defender and been shooting fairly efficiently after his horrid start. That’s roughly equal to what Singler does if you account for the extra scoring but also worse defense that Singler provides at this point.

  • Feb 13, 201410:32 am
    by @GPMasters

    Reply

    In the past two games, which Loyer stated would be a good snapshot of what he has at his diposal, we have seen the very best and the very worst of our Pistons. It should give Loyer some decent food for thought to consider over the break. To be honest, its not bad timing. Gives him a chance to take stock and come back equipped with some new ideas for the group starting next week.

    • Feb 13, 201412:29 pm
      by johnnyboy

      Reply

      Interesting article. I found it telling the author continually referred to Monroe as a center. I agree, Monroe is a center. The stats presented at 82game.com show conclusively Monroe is a much better center than power forward. 

      • Feb 13, 20141:09 pm
        by oats

        Reply

        No, they really don’t. They don’t at all account for the lineups he gets used in. When he’s at C he is always partnered with 3 actual perimeter players. When he’s at PF he is almost always partnered with 2 perimeter players and Smith at SF. Smith is a truly awful SF, and that hurts Monroe’s productivity on both sides of the court.

        • Feb 13, 20142:19 pm
          by pistons moribund

          Reply

          Actually most of his minuets are with Smith to make up for his defensive shortcomings, so actually the fact that he is partnered up with Smith helps to stem his defensive woes, never mind about the fact that he has to guard a 5 instead of a four.  Whether he is play as a four or 5, it doesn’t hide the fact that he is an awful defensive player, especially on the pick and roll.  All the other team has to do is set a screen with whoever Bullwinkle is guarding and roll to the basket.  He doesn’t let the defender through or when the guard goes to the basket, he makes takes no action and is left standing their picking off his own player while guarding a statue and the guard goes in for a layup.  The fact the Smith is not productive is not a cause of Bullwinkle’s defensive woes, which BTW is a measure of productivity.  The appearance of causality does not always lead to causation.  Your argument is flawed.

          • Feb 13, 20143:30 pm
            by oats

            First of all, my argument isn’t about whether or not Monroe plays acceptable defense. The argument made by johnnyboy was that his stats at C being better than his stats at PF proves that he is a better C. My counterargument is that it is only proof that Monroe is less effective while playing in the goofy 3 big lineup that doesn’t really work. That point is still correct even if the reason for Smith playing at SF is to help Monroe defensively. You are even arguing that Monroe is a terrible defender regardless of position, which still supports the notion that he isn’t necessarily a better C than PF.
             
            Now that that is out of the way, let’s address this new and largely unrelated point. The Pistons play better defense with Singler at the 3. That’s with any combination of the 2 bigs on the floor, including Monroe and Drummond without Smith. How does it make sense to play Smith at the 3 for defensive reasons if he actually makes the defense worse?
             
            There’s a lot of simple basketball reasons for Smith at SF making things worse. He doesn’t do a good job working through screens, he spends too much time ball watching and loses his man off the ball, he is slow to rotate and often doesn’t make a rotation at all, and he no longer has a significant quickness advantage to hide his flaws like he does when playing PF. On offense he takes touches from Monroe in order to jack up bad shots and he further clutters up the spacing.

        • Feb 13, 20143:07 pm
          by gidi

          Reply

          So Smith is now also to blame for Monroe’s underperformance? Seems that Smith just can’t do anything right these days… tomorrow he will be blamed for the bad weather.

          • Feb 13, 20144:04 pm
            by oats

            That’s not what I’m saying. Yet a fair amount of Monroe’s apparent decline this year is due to the lineup changes. Smith and Jennings are taking a ton of shots and as a result Monroe’s touches are way down. The team also plays worse defense with the 3 big lineup on the court than any lineup involving only 2 of the of the big men. That makes Greg look bad.
             
            I’m not really blaming Smith though. It’s probably important to note that most of Monroe’s time at C is with Smith at PF, and those lineups have been good. I’m saying that the 3 big lineup sucks and makes Monroe look worse. To be fair, it makes pretty much everyone look worse.

          • Feb 13, 20144:22 pm
            by JYD for Life

            Gidi – watch this video and then tell us what you think about Monroe’s defense…just want to see something: 
            http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=2xcY7kBRazo 
            Pretty sure we could find some of Smith giving up on a play or not fighting through a screen, like Oats mentioned.  
            But because he gets more than a block a game and steals the ball, he’s a great defender.  

          • Feb 13, 20148:58 pm
            by johnnyboy

            @JYD, Smith has been a plus defender for years. He was 2nd team NBA All Defensive Team in 2009/2010. 

          • Feb 13, 20149:52 pm
            by JYD for Life

            @johnnyboy – he’s fine, but you get All-Defensive type defense about 60% of the time…maybe he stepped that up to 75% in 2009-2010.  
            He’s got all of the ability in the world, but he’s not always there mentally (or doesn’t have heart).  That’s pretty evident that a guy with his skill sets has only received that honor once…and it was second team…He should be All Defensive every year.  
            Chauncey was also a 2nd All Defensive Team in 2005…and openly joked he shouldn’t have been and he looked better because of Ben Wallace.  
             
             

          • Feb 13, 201410:10 pm
            by johnnyboy

            I think his defense efficiency fluctuates depending what position he’s playing. He’s a plus defender at the 4. He’s average at SF.  

          • Feb 14, 201410:08 am
            by JYD for Life

            His efficiency fluctuates when he complains that he didn’t get a call on the offensive end and fails to run back on D…see how many times he does this during the next game.  
            He’s above average, for sure, but that’s almost negated by effort and awareness at times.  Case in point his stellar stat line against Cleveland, yet the Pistons were outscored by 7 while he was on the floor.  
            The guy is an incredibly talented defender (and player), but grossly inconsistent.  
            It’s going to take a Phil Jackson/Popovich-type coach or playing with a guy like LeBron or Kobe to put him in his place.  
             
            Unfortunately neither Mike Woodson nor Larry Drew were particularly tough on him and as one of the best two players on Atlanta, he had nobody to check him.  
            He’s probably best suited to be the third or fourth best player on a great team.  We don’t have the pieces around him to maximize his potential and won’t have those pieces before he’s too old to contribute.  
             
             
             

          • Feb 14, 20142:12 pm
            by johnnyboy

            @JYD, The Pistons have problems on the defensive end. We all know this. Smith’s defense is not the main cause. He’s a plus defender when playing the 4. I think this is league consensus. 

        • Feb 13, 20148:15 pm
          by johnnyboy

          Reply

          @oats, I will give you this, you are consistent in your defense of Monroe, damn the stats. You only use the stats if they are favorable to Monroe. Even going as far as blaming teammates for his woes. Kinda funny.
           
          I noticed you criticized Jennings for his poor defense. You have him ranked outside the top 25 in part because of his defense. Yet when it comes to Monroe’s defense you gloss over it. You say he just needs better teammates around him.
           
          Offensively you say Monroe could fit with Drummond if he has 3 outside shooters playing with him.
           
          Defensively Monroe needs teammates around him to cover up for his deficiencies.
           
          That seems like a lot of deficiencies to cover up for the max player you think Monroe is.
           
           

          • Feb 14, 20142:03 am
            by oats

            You can completely ignore the part where I point out that Jennings shoots a ton despite being one of the worst shooters in the league, but that is a pretty big key in my rating for him. You can similarly gloss over the fact that my argument for Monroe deserving a max has to due with my opinion that he will improve as a player and will eventually be worth it. There’s also the fact that I think teams have to pay a premium on big men or the fact that Monroe’s good health makes him more valuable than a similarly talented player.
             
            You are trying to conflate two separate arguments and then using only part of those arguments to try to suggest the two claims are directly contradictory, but that’s not really the case. If the argument about Jennings revolved around if the team could play good defense with him, I’d say the answer is yes but it’s a little bit harder to hide a PG than PF. If the question was is Jennings worth his salary, I’d say yes to that although it’s at least partially hoping he continues to improve as a player. Similarly, if the argument was that Monroe was a top 10 center or a top 15 PF I’d argue against those too. I actually don’t think he’s either one. I do think he’s a top 40 big man, has great health, and he’s young enough that he’s likely to improve. I also think that a max player is someone the market has determined is worth a max deal, and I think Monroe qualifies for that.
             
            I also don’t think it’s too much to ask that the team surround a pair of post players with 3 actual perimeter players and give the team some vaguely competent defensive schemes.

      • Feb 13, 20149:14 pm
        by johnnyboy

        Reply

        @oats, Do you even look at the stats, or are you just throwing out your opinion? I ask because the data is there for you to look at, yet you ignore it.
         
        Offensively Monroe’s PER at PF is 17.0. At C it is 19.7.
         
        Defensively allows his opponent a PER of 19.1 as a PF. At C he allows a PER of 15.5.
         
        Net 48-Minute Production Monroe as a PF is -2.2. At C he is 4.2.
         
        The stats show he is a better Center than PF. It’s obvious.
         
         

        • Feb 13, 20149:54 pm
          by JYD for Life

          Reply

          Can’t Monroe and Drummond be interchangeable based on the matchup? 
          That’s what is going to eventually happen.  Drummond is quick enough to defend PFs.  Position shouldn’t matter, Moose is valuable (but you’re right, not irreplaceable).  
           
           

          • Feb 13, 201410:17 pm
            by johnnyboy

            I don’t see them being interchangeable. Drummond is one of the best rebounders in the league. Anything that moves him away from the basket is a bad idea in my view.
             
            You also take away his rim protecting abilities. Monroe gives zero rim protection.
             
            I don’t want to see him chasing mobile PF’s 20 feet away from the basket. The opposing coach would probably love the idea though.

          • Feb 14, 20142:17 am
            by oats

            I suspect that Drummond’s rebounding wouldn’t take a large hit because of his ability to cover ground. Part of this is that I think the number of PFs that play 20 feet from the basket is badly over stated. It’s just not that common. Even if it does cut into some, it’s not like Detroit would be bad off with Monroe also hitting the boards. Drummond’s rim protecting shouldn’t be changed all that much since playing away from the basket more will likely increase his odds of sneaking up on someone in help defense. He’s probably taking a hit in both of those things, but I’d think the added value of having him on the team’s better scorer more often would probably go a long ways to offsetting that drop off.

          • Feb 14, 20148:21 am
            by johnnyboy

            Opposing coaches around the league would love your suspicions.
             
            Pulling Drummond away from the basket wouldn’t hurt rim protection much? Really? You are serious?
             
            All this to cover up Monroe’s defensive deficiencies. Very curious this makes sense to you.
             
             

        • Feb 14, 20141:44 am
          by oats

          Reply

          @ johnnyboy. Sorry for thinking it makes sense to take into account what the stats are actually measuring. I talked at length about this already, and I don’t know how to make it more obvious that I actually looked at the stats. Do you honestly think I’ve not seen those exact numbers? Of course I have. They absolutely suggest that he is less effective in the 3 big lineup than outside of it. Now if you had his splits at PF and without Smith you’d be closer to having a point, but you don’t.
           
          PER is also a flawed stat. It sets the bar for shooting efficiency low enough that even bad shooters are rewarded for shooting more. Monroe takes fewer shots at PF because he has fewer touches and his PER is lower. He also passes less for the same reason. Playing with 2 good rebounders instead of one should result in diminishing returns on rebounds. That’s a lot of factors that should result in a lower PER. Opposing PFs shoot more often than opposing Cs and their PER is better. The team plays worse team defense with the 3 big lineup on the court, and that also hurts him in terms of his opponent’s PER at PF.
           
          I’d say you aren’t proving what you think you are proving.

          • Feb 14, 20148:08 am
            by johnnyboy

            You really like Monroe. I get it. I see a lot of mental gymnastics and opinion from you when speaking to Monroe’s ability. You dismiss statistics unflattering to him. You lose objectivity.
             
            You don’t like Jennings. I get it. You use statistics to back your opinion. You dismiss statistics flattering to Jennings. Again, you lose objectivity.
             
            You can’t have it both ways and stay credible.
             
            Just once I would like to see you look at at Monroe with a critical eye. The same way you look at Jennings.
             

  • Feb 13, 20142:14 pm
    by brgulker

    Reply

    16 points, 17 boards, and 2 steals only gets you a B+?
    How many times a year do NBA players as a whole post those kinds of numbers? 

    • Feb 13, 20144:32 pm
      by Birdman84

      Reply

      I’m glad you asked, Gulks!
      According to Basketball Reference, from the start of the 1985 season (their full box scores go back that far) through last season, there have been 952 times a NBA player has put up 16+ points, 17+ boards, and 2+ steals. That’s 28 seasons, so it averages to exactly 34 times per year. Not too shabby.

      • Feb 14, 201410:27 am
        by Tim Thielke

        Reply

        Sure, but that doesn’t include all sorts of better games where someone gets 20 and 15 or 14 and 22 or whatever.

        Drummond’s grade took a hit because he wasn’t playing smart in this one. Also, because 16 and 17 is good for him, but not outrageously so. He keeps raising his own bar.

        I’m happy to defend my grades, comments, and whatever else. But understand that when I make them, I take into consideration the players’ lines and things that don’t show up in the box score. If you only take one or the other into consideration when reviewing them, there will always be items to take issue with.

  • Feb 13, 20142:21 pm
    by pistons moribund

    Reply

    Somehow the bias for Bullwinkle results in a bias against Smith.  If Bullwinkle were to ever pull those kind of numbers, he would be getting an A+++++++++++++++++++++++.

    • Feb 13, 20144:09 pm
      by oats

      Reply

      Monroe had the better stat line and got the worse grade.

    • Feb 13, 20144:25 pm
      by JYD for Life

      Reply

      Smith’s presence on the court resulted in a -7…but his four blocks were cool…

  • Feb 13, 20142:56 pm
    by Greg

    Reply

    I would really like the proposed trade of Will Bynum for Gary Neal, I would even involve a 2nd round pick to get rid of Bynum.
    Meanwhile I´m also all in for trading Monroe. How about Monroe and Villanueava for the Nuggets Faried and Chandler?
    If both those trades happen we would start:
    Drummond, Smith, Chandler, Caldwell-Pope and Jennings.
    Backed up by: Stuckey, Neal, Singler, Faried, Harrelson.

    • Feb 14, 201412:07 am
      by Smitty

      Reply

      I thought the same thing give the bucks a 2nd rounder for Neal. I picked Bynum because he is of no use to this team anymore.
       

  • Feb 13, 20145:02 pm
    by Mrdumas

    Reply

    I’ll take a Monroe for Hayward or banters any day ….they also proposed a trade with the spurs …monroe and stuckey for leonard and belinili …I’d jump on that quicker then a drunk chick at spring break …we need to realize in order to trade Monroe the other team has to benefit as well 

    • Feb 13, 20145:07 pm
      by Max

      Reply

      But do we need to accept that every single Monroe trade proposal will equate to a net loss in talent and assets for the Pistons? 

    • Feb 13, 20145:27 pm
      by oats

      Reply

      Barnes is not good. I don’t get how a guy that is playing worse than Singler this year has so many people thinking the Pistons should trade Monroe for him.

      • Feb 13, 20149:46 pm
        by I HATE LOSING (Predicting a Strong Finish)

        Reply

        Maybe but building something going forward…Id take Barnes
        it will be terrible to lose Monrow for nothing when you can get  guy like Banes if that an actual option…
         

        • Feb 13, 20149:59 pm
          by JYD for Life

          Reply

          Yeah, but Barnes isn’t necessarily available…especially not for Monroe.  Look at their cap situation and unless we take David Lee, that deal isn’t happening.  Regardless of how good of a fit (or poor fit) Barnes could be.  Barnes is in the second year of a rookie-scale contract and Moose is up for an extension.   
          It’s not as simple as “Monroe is better than Barnes, so why wouldn’t Golden State do that?” 

  • Feb 13, 20145:02 pm
    by Mrdumas

    Reply

    Barnes*

  • Feb 13, 20145:03 pm
    by Mrdumas

    Reply

    Monroe can benefit in a slow pace offense along side Duncan works for all parties involved 

  • Feb 13, 20145:46 pm
    by apa8ren9

    Reply

    Between Jennings having a less effective game and Stuckey not playing the single biggest reason we lost this one is because of MR. Will Bynum and his hero ball.  Turnover,  bad pass, 20 ft shot with no passes and 19 on the shot clock.  You have that along with the one time he does pass, he passes to Josh Smith who promply launches a 22 ft brick from the top of the key cause he hasnt shot the ball in awhile.   Thats not smart basketball.  
    So Cleveland goes on an 11-0 run or something like in the 4th quarter (lost a 10pt lead) and the Pistons are stuck without momentum cause everyone from that point on tries to be a hero.   This exchange happened from the 10:30 mark to the 7 minute mark of the 4th period. Loyer finally takes Bynum out.  Momentum lost and game lost.  This team is not good enough nor smart enough to overcome this type of bad basketball without an excellent shooting night.   This has to be hammered home during film study.  This has happened over and over again. The Pistons had from 7 minutes on to do something but didnt.  They lapsed into the same bad habits.  There has to be a moratorium on the terrible no pass 22ft jump shots with 20+ seconds on the shot clock.  I propose (sarcasm intended) that everytime someone takes that shot in the half court set in the 4th quarter they have to run wind sprints until they puke.  This has to stop. This is DUMB basketball and the cost is wins.  /end rant 

  • Feb 13, 20146:13 pm
    by Mrdumas

    Reply

    It’s really not about who’s better more so what pieces fits better for this team 

  • Feb 13, 20149:39 pm
    by I HATE LOSING (Predicting a Strong Finish)

    Reply

    WHO KILLED THE PISTONS
    http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1944517-who-killed-the-detroit-pistons
     
    one of the best or at least most interesting articles from Bleacher

    • Feb 14, 20141:01 pm
      by Pistons

      Reply

      The Dumars defence was weak in my opinion. If its true he wanted Boozer fine but when you know for a fact your owner is not on board its your responsibility to run it by her first. That way if she nixes the trade it won’t put us in a crippling position. I also realise the man drafts well but he keeps trading them for nothing so thats not helpful. My last complaint is his coach hires. Yes, not all of them were his fault but in my opinion if he could hire a halfway decent coach wouldn’t they have trusted him more? I mean I can forgive Curry because that was Karen Davidson’s hire but the others sucked. None have any passion and the team ends up board and it shows on the court.

  • Feb 13, 201411:09 pm
    by Max

    Reply

    Singler is taking too much heat here.  
    It’s not his fault that he was inserted into the starting lineup over KCP.  Two coaches have made that call in the last few games and the results have been mostly positive.   The team was struggling.  A change has been needed.  Maybe it wasn’t the right change but again, that’s not Singler’s call.  
    As far as that call goes though, Singler does have some advantages over KCP and he has been the Pistons most consistent 3 point shooter this season even though that is not saying much–Jerebko is actually shooting the highest pct and Harrelson is in 2nd!   
    Now, playing Singler at the 2 with Smith and his documented issues on his better side of the perimeter certainly doesn’t seem like it helps defensively.  We have all unfortunately seen Singler start too much at shooting guard and not enough at small forward in comparison when he’s probably more suited to power forward than shooting guard but this should not be a reason to underrate and denigrate Singler  His per 36 numbers are flat out better than KCPs but Singler doesn’t shoot enough for his percentages to really make up for KCPs better defense at the position.  Personally though, if I was coach, I’d start both of them after having a meeting with Smith and Monroe in which I’d tell them that one of them has to come off the bench and that it wasn’t all that important which one of them it would be.  I’d tell them to man up and do what is best for the team and challenge them both to be the bigger man by volunteering first.   And if neither offered, I’d man up and make the decision for them.   
    Finally, Singler was a 2nd round draft pick who has already played much better than his draft position and this is only his second year.  He’s actually one of the Pistons more valuable trade chips and I imagine pretty much any team would think of him of as least sweetening a deal.  Shame on Pistons’ fan who are down on Singler.   

    • Feb 14, 201410:12 am
      by JYD for Life

      Reply

      Agreed…it’s about expectations…what did people think they’re going to get?  
      You’re totally right about starting KCP and Singler, give Jennings some targets on drive and kicks while having a solid big off of the bench.  It probably has to be Monroe because I don’t see Smith agreeing to this.  
       
      Look at the Bulls rotation of Noah, Boozer and Gibson…Smith would be perfect for us if he were to agree to being the 6th man (no way they let that happen at 13.5 mil per year). 
       
       
       
       

      • Feb 14, 201410:33 am
        by I HATE LOSING (Predicting a Strong Finish)

        Reply

        i’ve been saying it all year!
        Jenning is averaging 8 plus ast per-game on a team that trying to feature a three big line up…and the best shooting of the bigs at best is streaky….
        NO other PG has to do what he does…. that doing what he is doing….

        • Feb 14, 201410:47 am
          by Tim Thielke

          Reply

          Ok, so you think Jennigns has less opportunity than most PGs to get assists because the Pistons don’t have as much outside shooting. I’d argue the opposite. If a team puts up 12 points by shooting threes, there were only 4 assist opportunities. If a team puts up 12 points by shooting twos, there were 6 assist opportunities.

          So let’s agree that how much opportunity he has to get assists is not based on the particular makeup of the team, but on how many field goals they make per game. The Pistons are 8th is the league in that regard. Furthermore, there aren’t any other big-time ball handlers on the team so Jennings gets to make more of the passes than most PGs would. So, yeah, Jennings is in an enviable spot to pump his assist totals.

          And guess what, it shows. That’s why Jennings’ assist totals have jumped a ton this season–because he’s in a better spot to get so many.

          Jennings gets a lot of assists because he has so many opportunities. if you don’t believe me, just try looking at the percentage of his possessions that end in an assist. It’s 28%. That’s not bad, it’s tied for 32nd in the league. But it’s also not remarkable:
          http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/statistics/_/sort/assistRatio

          • Feb 14, 201411:21 am
            by JYD for Life

            Yeah, my comment was more of an overall view of how the team would function more cohesively as a result of starting KCP and Singler.  It would help Jennings a bit, but I don’t think that legitimizes his positioning in PG rankings. 
            Give me one of Smith or Jennings and I can see how this will work for awhile (it just won’t with two players in the starting 5 with their horrible tendencies that outweigh what they do well).  Jennings has upside and I’ll say it again, can be coached up to be a better decision maker and develop at least a pulse on defense.  

          • Feb 14, 201411:24 am
            by JYD for Life

            Slow day at the office…
            Who says no to this deal if the Lakers send their 2014 and another future 1st to Minnesota? 
            Not sure it can happen because the Lakers have agreed to send their 2015 pick to Phoenix to complete the Nash deal…
            http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=knmlg7v 
             

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