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Is there any way Pistons’ loss to Mavericks doesn’t begin four-game losing streak?

Dallas Mavericks 113 Final
Recap | Box Score
102 Detroit Pistons
Greg Monroe, PF Shot Chart 40 MIN | 7-13 FG | 3-6 FT | 17 REB | 2 AST | 0 STL | 2 BLK | 2 TO | 17 PTS | -9

The Pistons got killed on the glass (50-39), but it would have been worse if not for Monroe. He also scored effectively, notching his fifth-career game with so many points and rebounds.

Josh Smith, SF Shot Chart 38 MIN | 14-20 FG | 3-4 FT | 3 REB | 3 AST | 1 STL | 3 BLK | 4 TO | 32 PTS | -2

A strong post-up game formed the base of Smith’s offensively successful night, and making his jumper complemented it. When Smith prioritizes getting inside, that limits what can go wrong. His risk-reward gauge on passes, though, needs a big overhaul. Smith makes some of the Pistons’ most impressive passes, but for each one, he has too many turnovers. Smith didn’t score in the final 16:40 of the game, though he at least defended well in that final stretch. Still, he finished with 32 points, a season high

Kyle Singler, SF Shot Chart 34 MIN | 3-8 FG | 0-2 FT | 5 REB | 2 AST | 3 STL | 0 BLK | 1 TO | 7 PTS | -4

Singler had his worst offensive game since becoming a starter, though I somewhat attribute that to the bar being superficially high. I don’t believe he’s anything more than an OK offensive fit with the other four starters. I think he just went through a random hot streak that coincided with his move into the starting lineup. A Jennings-Singler-Smith-Monroe-Drummond lineup remains awful offensively, though.

Andre Drummond, C Shot Chart 20 MIN | 3-6 FG | 2-4 FT | 3 REB | 0 AST | 1 STL | 1 BLK | 0 TO | 8 PTS | -7

Drummond started strong (by playing like himself), but once he got into foul trouble, he never recovered. He was just too timid, too disjointed after long stretches on the bench. Drummond must learn to play with foul trouble and have a confidence to keep playing his game. His coach can help with that, though I’ll cover that in the John Loyer section.

Brandon Jennings, PG Shot Chart 29 MIN | 1-7 FG | 0-0 FT | 1 REB | 3 AST | 0 STL | 0 BLK | 1 TO | 2 PTS | -14

Jennings left before the midpoint of the third quarter and didn’t return until the Pistons trailed by nine with 3:23 left in the game. Loyer isn’t showing trust in him late, and the way Jennings played earlier, there was no reason to.

Jonas Jerebko, PF Shot Chart 10 MIN | 1-2 FG | 3-3 FT | 2 REB | 0 AST | 0 STL | 0 BLK | 0 TO | 5 PTS | -9

Jerebko was lively on both ends, a welcome sight. His strong cuts, whether as the roll man in a screen-and-roll or crashing the glass, stood out.

Will Bynum, PG Shot Chart 32 MIN | 7-12 FG | 3-4 FT | 4 REB | 8 AST | 0 STL | 0 BLK | 2 TO | 17 PTS | -4

The Mavericks played Bynum to crash relentlessly to the rim, but he showed a hesitation game that really helped him set up his teammates well. Bynum also hit his long 2s for an overall impressive offensive game against a defense that took away his bread and butter.

Kentavious Caldwell-Pope, SG Shot Chart 14 MIN | 2-5 FG | 1-2 FT | 2 REB | 0 AST | 1 STL | 0 BLK | 0 TO | 5 PTS | -7

Look who finally put up some numbers. He was probably about net-neutral, anyway, but at least the effort is more apparent.

Rodney Stuckey, SG Shot Chart 24 MIN | 2-9 FG | 5-5 FT | 2 REB | 3 AST | 1 STL | 0 BLK | 0 TO | 9 PTS | +1

Stuckey is a willing transition passer, but once the Pistons get into their halfcourt offense, he’s looking to score.

John Loyer

A combination of a high willingness to help, switching on pick and rolls and zone defense had the Pistons facing several mismatches defensively, and the Mavericks took advantage. That’s what Dallas does, and Loyer didn’t turn the tide by outcoaching Rick Carlisle – not that anyone expected Loyer to have the upper hand tonight. Loyer must also allow Drummond to play confidently with foul trouble. These quick hooks help nobody. Drummond just gets out rhythm, and when he plays, he’s too passive. Not to mention the Pistons go long stretches without their best player on the floor. Drummond didn’t even foul out anyway. What are you saving him for? At least Loyer had the Pistons, who are steadily slipping from playoff contention, playing hard once again.

Up Next: vs. Golden State on Monday, at San Antonio on Wednesday, at Houston on Saturday. The Pistons will be big underdogs in each of those games.


  • Feb 23, 201410:39 am
    by MitchEPooh


    Drummond was schooled by the vet Dalembert, no surprise. He’ll learn. But without his presence in the middle, the pathway to the rim was clear all night long.
    KCP was again, useless. He made 2 easy lay-ups but still hasn’t hit an outside shot in about 2 weeks.
    Jennings was awful. His shot selection is inexcusable. Off balance pull-up jumpers with 17 seconds still left on the shot clock? His defense was, his usual. I don’t understand how a player as quick as him let’s dribble-drivers get by him with such ease and regularity. Our backcourt defense as a whole is killing this team. Bynum is no better. Stuckey doesn’t care. KCP is useless. Singler tries but is too slow as the 2. Big Shot is too old.
    This is our team. What can we do?

    • Feb 23, 201411:42 am
      by frankie d


      very accurate assessment.
      only thing i would quibble with is your criticism of bynum’s defense.  while he is no lindsay hunter, he does at least try on most plays, which is more than what you can say for jennings.  and he will occasionally present a reasonable obstacle for an opposing PG.  but, generally,  he certainly is not a good defender. 
      the fact that jennings is so horrible defensively makes his signing – and the ignoring of caldrone – that much more perplexing.  
      calderone has always been one of he best offensive PGs in the league. what has always made him tough to tolerate – on your team – has been his terrible defensive play.  
      but jennings makes caldrone look like an all-nba first team defensive player.  he is the worst defensive PG in memory. 
      imho, calderone is a far superior offensive player.  better shooter, better passer, runs the pick and roll like a magician.  jennings is flashier and better in transition, but i will gladly sacrifice some flash and a couple of fast break lobs for the kind of steady, smart shooting and passing that caldrone brings to the floor. 
      so, imho, it made no sense to have let go a guy like caldrone in order to bring in a guy who is a worse defender, a poorer shooter and a much less willing passer. (and if anyone isn’t convinced that jennings assist numbers were absolutely hollow, you haven’t been watching the games.) the truly ironic thing is that fans were prepared to let go of caldron because of his bad defense and now we are stuck with a guy who is even worse.

      • Feb 23, 201412:01 pm
        by Parsons


        So if Calderon is better than Jennings and Knight is better than KCP and Middleton is better than Singler… why the hell did we make that trade. Calderon said he’d resign with us and we’d still have money to blow on Smith. Not to mention having Calderon run the offence would take the ball from Smith making him less… stupid. Our defense wouldn’t be any worse. Our offence might be better and we could have still tried out this freakishly large lineup. AND on top of all else we’d have more than 6 players who look like they belong in the NBA. Plus we’d have saved money because Calderon is cheaper than Jennings. The ONLY problem is that Calderon signed a 4 year contract paying him $7,708,427 in the final year. Thats going to make for an awful contract in year 4 but lets be honest with Monroe, Drummond, Smith, Knight, KCP, Middleton, Singler, by year 4 we’d be flirting with the luxury tax anyway so I can live with that.

        • Feb 23, 201412:23 pm
          by Parsons


          Our lineup would be,


          With Bynum, Middleton, Singler, Stuckey, KCP, Jerebko, and Harrilson off the bench.

          Not significantly a step forward or back to be honest.

    • Feb 23, 20141:50 pm
      by Brandon Knight


      So who still thinks that…
      KCP, Jennings and Burke are better than Brandon Knight!
      You guys are bunch of idiots. I knew Knight was going to improve and prove all of you wrong! 
      The Brandon Jennings trade is going to turn to be the worst trade ever made by Joe D. 
      Other than some few consecutive nice three’s by Jennings, he gives you shit. Literally shit! 
      Jennings-The awful field goal percentage, the defense …..ughhhhh! I am sick of this. 
      KCP – The inconsistency, the 3 point percentage, the field goal percentage, ughhh. 
      Remember the impact Brandon Knight had on the game?? Yeah he is not that great of a point guard but what is Jennings giving us? Really 3 more fancy assist! is it worth it? Anyways our team plays mostly one on one. So he is useless anyways. 
      Yesterday Brandon Kngiht 30 points 8 assists and 0 turnovers.
      FUCK FUCK FUCK you Joe Doumars.

      • Feb 23, 20142:37 pm
        by Brandon Knight


        • Feb 23, 20144:08 pm
          by T Casey


          “Worst trade ever by Joe D” is a stretch. I do still think with the right tutelage, Knight can become a quality pg, but he’s still inefficient scoring the rock more often than not, although more efficient than Jennings, and his court vision still leaves a lot to be desired.

          • Feb 24, 20149:12 am
            by JYD for Life

            Yeah, I wouldn’t say worst move ever.  
            But this just goes back to what is seemingly a lack of direction for development and growth. 
            They hired Cheeks to “teach the kids” and then signed Smith to become the highest paid (and assume a leadership role) and flipped Knight for Jennings.  
            I would argue that Knight isn’t a chucker and plays defense, so this thing with Smith might have worked. 
            No question Jennings has more raw ability, but the whole package isn’t there. 
            Just look at Knight’s body right now.  He bought into whatever Arnie’s program was…He’s an intelligent kid and obviously has a tremendous work ethic.  Not sure why it seemed like a good idea to trade him for a questionable character guy who can’t run a team.  
            If there was a “mandate” from the top that said make the playoffs now, then this trade made total sense. 
            Either way, it’s pretty clear Knight is destined to be a combo guard.  He’ll be a very good 6th man eventually and unfortunately it won’t be in Detroit.  

      • Feb 23, 20144:22 pm
        by oats


        I’d consider Knight the worst prospect at least. Knight is not a good enough passer to be a starting PG and his defense has fallen off a cliff this year. He’s also never been capable of defending SGs well and he is only an average shooter, but he might be a low end starter at the 2. I’d still call him a solid 6th man. Unfortunately, I don’t see him being all that likely to become more than that. His is almost certainly never going to be a good enough passer to be a starting PG, and it’s highly unlikely that his defense and shooting will improve to the point that he is clearly a starting SG. He could could improve quite a bit and become an excellent 6th man, but being a bench player does put somewhat of a cap on his impact.
        Jennings is clearly a starting PG. I really don’t need a lot more of an argument than that. The gap on defense really hasn’t been that big this year due to Knight’s decline on that side of the ball, and Jennings has always been better at getting steals. He’s also one of the better PGs at running a fast break, and this team is much better when they get out and run. I still think Jennings is a pretty low end starter, and the difference between Knight and Jennings as players isn’t huge, but Jennings is still clearly the better player.
        Burke is a good enough passer to justify starting at PG, but he’s really inefficient as a scorer. I’d say Knight is a slightly better player right now even if he isn’t a starting caliber player, but Burke being this good as a rookie and having some clear cut PG skills makes him a better prospect.
        KCP is a terrible shooter this year, but he’s a good NBA defender as a 20 year old rookie. A lot of rookies struggle with their shot when they first enter the league, and given the fact that he was a solid college shooter he still projects as a roughly average NBA shooter down the road. With his defensive potential that means he is potentially a solid starting SG, something I seriously doubt Knight will ever be. Knight is pretty clearly the better player now, but KCP is a slightly better prospect still.
        With both of KCP and Burke it is still possible that neither lives up to their potential and never even get better than Knight, but that doesn’t change how they currently project. As for the trade itself, you are complaining about the wrong guy. Khris Middleton is better than Brandon Knight. He’s a really solid 3 and D player and a steady starter. I’d still rank him behind Jennings as a player, and I don’t know how high his ceiling really is since he’s a pretty average athlete for an NBA player. He’s still the guy I regret including in the trade, especially since I bet it would have gone through if Singler was sent out in his place. Because both Knight and Middleton are pretty good that trade may end up being a mistake in the long run, but as of now it is hard to fault Dumars for landing the best player in the trade.

        • Feb 23, 201411:31 pm
          by Brandon Knight


          I seriously don’t understand what you see in KCP to call him the better prospect!! Other than the defense! What do you see?

          • Feb 24, 20146:12 pm
            by oats

            I’m just not that concerned with the shooting yet. He’s got a nearly identical true shooting percentage to a lot of guys that turned into efficient shooters down the line like Rip Hamilton as a rookie. It takes more than one year to decide the guy definitely can’t shoot. He’s probably never going to take on a Rip Hamilton type of scoring load, but if he similarly improves his shooting efficiency he could end up being a really good pro who scores in the 12-14 point range and plays top level defense. Even if he just ends up as an average efficiency shooter like Knight has proven to be through 3 years then KCP’s defense is better by enough that he’d still be better than Knight. Admittedly there is no guarantee that the shot will ever come around at all, and maybe he’s a guy that just can’t shoot. I’m still going to assume that he will do what most young players do and improve, and if he follows a fairly typical rate of improvement he should bypass Knight since Knight’s rate of improvement has been so slow.

        • Feb 23, 201411:57 pm
          by Brandon Knight


          And sorry but I disagree with you…Jennings is not better than Knight!
          Looking at stats alone…Knight is clearly the better player!
          Per 36 Minutes:
          Knight: 19 points 5.6 assists 3.9 rebounds 1.1 steals FG% .414 FT% .822
          Jennings: 17.4 points 8.0 assists 3.2 rebounds 1.5 steals FG% .377  FT%.780
          Also Knight is the bigger player and the better defender.
          I mean look at Jennings FG%….that is awful.
          You telling me there is no difference between Knight’s and Jennings defense!? Are you serious? Do you watch the Bucks? Come on, Knight is way better than Jennings! I mean do you watch Jennings defend…the guy is like a stick anybody can get past him! He doesn’t even try!
          Don’t forget Jennings gets few more assists because he is on the better team! Bucks are awful. BTW Turnovers are the same.
          Knight is better! Period!

          • Feb 24, 20146:40 pm
            by oats

            Knight has 1.9 assists per turnover compared to Jennings and his 2.7 assists per turnover. That’s an enormous difference. Jennings is a good passer for a PG, Knight is good for a bench player or an off guard.
            Knight may be bigger, but Jennings is a lot faster. As for the defense, I didn’t say there was no difference. I said the gap had dropped considerably, and it has. Knight is not a good defender this year. He’s a bit closer to average, but they are both playing bad defense. Slightly less bad defense and average shooting just doesn’t trump the ability to run an offense.
            As for the assists, I know I’ve been over this before, but there isn’t a lot of evidence that teammates have a significant effect on assist totals. Most players get assists at more or less a constant rate no matter who he plays with. Detroit gets a lot of points off offensive rebounds and putting it back up right away, which never gets an assist. Jennings also has way worse spacing and is forced to rely heavily on the fast break because his team stinks in the half court. Knight has problems with his team shooting a lower percentage from the floor, but some of that is him not being good at creating high percentage shots for his teammates. This is his 3rd straight year running a really slow paced offense, so I think it’s safe to say this how he is comfortable playing. If Knight was on Detroit his inability to run a fast break would hurt the team’s shooting efficiency, and as a result the team would be worse off with him running the point.
            I’m not pretending like it’s a huge difference because it really isn’t. Jennings is a bad shooter who shoots way more than he should and he’s a lousy defender. Yet Jennings can run an offense and Knight can’t. If Knight was actually a good shooter or a good defender he’d blow past Jennings, but he’s an average shooter and a below average defensive player. That’s just not enough to trump Jennings being capable of filling a really tough role to fill.

          • Feb 24, 20146:44 pm
            by oats

            Oh, and I forgot to mention that Knight is having a fairly typical good player on a bad team season. Having bad teammates tends to inflate stats because they give players much bigger roles than they really deserve. Knight is clearly benefiting from that right now.

        • Feb 24, 201410:11 pm
          by Dan Feldman


          Good analysis, Oats

      • Feb 23, 20148:17 pm
        by zdh


        Yea I think at best, knight will be a 6th man. which would be great, i wouldn’t have minded keeping him, but i also think jennings can develop still and has a higher ceiling than knight.
        also, i havent watched a ton of bucks games, but it’s not shocking that knight would put up huge stats there. the team has no one that can create their own offense, he will get all the shots he wants, and no one will care. even if mayo was playing half decent this season, knight would still continue to put up big stats.

      • Feb 24, 20141:15 pm
        by koz


        yeah, I’m agreeing with ya brandon knight, dumars got his iverson clone in jennings, two chuckers they are smith and jennings, a waste of time and money. bk is improving, middleton shooting @ 42% from three land and now the pistons could use a shooter? shit he traded away 2 of them for those 27 foot twisting fade away guy in your face chuckers! dumars has lost his touch, team has confusion as its identity. I say like bill simmons said, get rid of the confusion, get rid of dumars. keep puttin up those bk highlights, you should send them to joe d.

  • Feb 23, 201410:46 am
    by Josh


    So assuming we lose the next three, we should be damn near keeping our pick right?

  • Feb 23, 201410:46 am
    by MitchEPooh


    Loyer tried last night to stem the flow to the rim. Against all logic, he went to a zone against a good 3pt shooting squad. Unfortunately, we don’t know how to play zone! Dallas didn’t bother to shoot the wide open 3s we were giving them. Instead, they went to pick& roll and simply took advantage of our inability to provide help D from the opposite side. More easy lay-ins. But at least he tried something.

  • Feb 23, 201411:02 am
    by Ryan


    At this point I’m cheering for all the teams below us to finish the season with winning streaks and for us to stumble to the finish line.

    I’m also cheering for the removal of Joe Dumars as GM. I love Joe but he screwed the franchise so badly this summer with the Josh Smith signing and Brandon Jennings trade that it’s clear he’s not making good decisions.

    My hope is that Tom Gores hires someone who knows basketball and can do the job and I further hope that Gores stays the hell out of the way. Ideally I’d like to see Chauncey Billups given a front office role that involves him learning that side of the job and mentoring our guards.

    We need to build a culture something like San Antonio and OKC have. And once we get rid of Smith and hopefully Jennings too we can get started.

  • Feb 23, 201411:53 am
    by sleep doc


    The funny thing about this team is that if any of their big men could hit a 15 ft jumper, and they had one wing player who could hit a three consistently and defend they would be really good.  The fix for this team is actually not as difficult as people suspect that it is.  One of the things I was intrigued by yesterday was the pairing of bynum, jennings and caldwell pope on the floor together.  If jennings and pope can hit consistent threes (which their history shows they should be able to) then all of sudden paired with Smith and Drummond that should be an offensively meaningful line up.
    Short of that the only other thing I can think of is SPEED UP THE GAME.  Drive the number of possessions through the roof and pressure the crap out of the other team.  Honestly the best play for this team is to stagger the big three and run run run.  On the opposing inbounds pressure and trap constantly.  You can’t defend the pick and roll, your close out on three point shooters is atrocious and your help side defense is miserable.  Why in the hell are you trying to play half court defense then.   Go Golden State Baron Davis style and just play helter skelter.  Loyer was an assistant for Huggins….just do what he did defensively and run the other team out of the building.  The results have to be better than what they are.  Plus you can leverage your plus level rebounding ability and you don’t expose Drummond to foul trouble perpetually.

  • Feb 23, 201411:57 am
    by sleep doc


    It’s why Lionel Hollins could win in Memphis.  Marc Gasol can hit a fifteen foot jumper.  Honestly so can Zebo.   None of our bigs can consistently hit a fifteen foot jumper.
    I know people believe Greg Monroe will become a plus defender.  I find that really hard to believe because his foot work is really slow and paired with poor recognition seems like an insurmountable problem.  But man if that kid could consistently hit a 15 foot jumper (ie. attend the LaMarcus Aldridge summer camp for bigs who don’t shoot good) he would be lethal.  He is 23 not 28 like our other high volume gunner.  Shooting is the one thing you can work on and develop.  

  • Feb 23, 20141:54 pm
    by Ozzie-Moto


    Thats why I am not sold on Hollins as a good fit for coach. If we keep Monroe and try and do the same 2 bigs that he did in Memphis  it wont work … for one the rest of the team needs an up tempo game (esp. Jennings) and neither big can hit the 15 footer …..  we have a boring slow down game and i doubt win much more… 

    • Feb 23, 20144:59 pm
      by oats


      Hollins worked with Prince who is reluctant to take even wide open 3s, which makes him pretty useless for floor spacing. He also had to deal with Tony Allen who can’t shoot at all. Isn’t that at least comparable to what Detroit is dealing with? I’d say that if they either moved one of the bigs to the bench or traded one of them this off season that it would be pretty much equal in terms of spacing. I’m still not sold on Hollins being the guy to reign in some of the team’s more harmful tendencies since he apparently liked Rudy Gay’s chucking tendencies, but I don’t think the spacing thing is that much worse than what Memphis had to deal with.

      • Feb 24, 20149:29 am
        by JYD for Life


        I’m not sold on Hollins either…At this point there’s no reason not to take a stab at an assistant who’s ready to make the leap or a college coach who can actually coach (look at the Celtics).  
        I don’t know what the answer is, but Hollins doesn’t strike me as a dominant personality and this team needs a dictator.
        We laugh, but a personality like Laimbeer (not saying we should hire him) or Thibs is what this team needs if the roster looks like this next year.   
        Cheeks was supposed to be the two year plan to help the kids grow up.  Nobody had championship aspirations within the organization if they agreed upon Cheeks.  
        Seriously.  Neither Joe nor Gores had to think that Mo Cheeks is “the guy.”  
        This was a shortsighted move and it’s a reflection of leadership.  There’s obviously some poor communication or lack of an overall strategy.  That starts at the top. 

        • Feb 24, 20146:56 pm
          by oats


          I’m not big on the dictator thing. Those guys tend to where out there welcome pretty fast. Teams love going from laid back player’s coach that the players end up walking all over to the authoritarian drill sergeant who eventually wears his guys down. When the authoritarian has worn out his welcome it’s time for another player’s coach, and on and on the cycle goes. Heck, Detroit’s been guilty of it. Brown was a tough, Flip wasn’t, Curry was supposed to be tough, Kuester was supposed to be relatable, then Frank was supposed to bring some discipline, and Cheeks is the nice guy.
          The whole thing is dumb. The best coaches find some kind of balance between the two. Phil is a laid back player’s coach that likes to let his player’s handle most of the discipline, but he didn’t hesitate to pull Bynum for shooting a 3. Pop is more of a disciplinarian, but he is a really funny guy who has done things like intentionally foul Shaq on the opening tip and give Tim Duncan a DNP- Old in the official box score. I think Pop’s team genuinely likes him and regards him as a sort of father figure instead of just a task master. I don’t want to just keep cycling between the two extremes, I want the team to find a guy who the players will respect enough to stay in line and still like playing for. That’s the kind of coach that hangs around while guys like Cheeks and Skiles have short shelf lives.

          • Feb 25, 201410:52 am
            by JYD for Life

            You’re right about a total dictatorship…there does need to be a balance and few guys can find that.  I think Doc and Pop probably do it the best.  

            The other thing to keep in mind with coaches like Phil and Pop, etc. is that they had superstars buy into their system.  That’s the biggest piece.  
            It helps when Tim Duncan is listening to you while you’re in your authoritarian mode.  Once the player sees the benefit of this, they are all ears.  That opens up the lightheartedness you see from Pop or giving a day off and such.  
            Thibs is a great example of working his guys to the bone, while throwing small rewards here and there.  You saw how quickly Rip Hamilton fell out of favor with him.  Rip was used to being able to call the shots here and go to Joe whenever he had issues.  Thibs didn’t put up with that at all.  Deng, Rose and Noah all bought in and love him for his discipline.  
            Either style can work, but we need someone tough.  Especially if Smith is still on our roster next season.  
            He can’t get away with crap like missing a flight because he was home in Atlanta.  Yes, that needs to start at the top too.  I would have suspended him for the entire game.  

  • Feb 23, 20145:49 pm
    by Sidewalkvendor


    The next 3 games of cavs and knick is pretty tough too.we will still be 10th overall.we really need to tank hard to slide to 7th or 8th spot to retain the pick

  • Feb 23, 20149:10 pm
    by Dave


    to bad we cannot trade Monroe to State for Adrian Payne.

  • Feb 23, 201410:10 pm
    by Jay wiz


    im not the biggest Bynum fan, but I was at the game and he helped the team make it close in the second half til the mavs pulled away

  • Feb 23, 201410:15 pm
    by James


    Coaching can’t help players born of the AND 1 generation all that much. Larry Brown couldn’t salvage Jennings from that garbage game he has. How can you play basketball your whole Damn life and still not be able to use your off hand at the rim? Monroe will NEVER move faster or jump higher, and if after 4 yrs in the league can’t learn a decent distance jumper, his ceiling has been reached basically. And to bring in a guy at his position(s) in Smith and Drummond was effen’ STUPID! Joe is done here, his awful signings are done here, his piss poor drafting is done here, his piss poor scouting is done here, etc etc etc.  

    • Feb 24, 201410:09 am
      by JYD for Life


      What poor drafting are you referring to?  Say what you want about Joe’s lack of strategy, poor decisions in free agency and being too friendly with the players, but he’s drafted well.  
      2000 – Mateen Cleaves & Brian Cardinal – What’s wrong with those?  It was a really weak draft, the team had a few down years and Cleaves was a hometown guy who had just won an NCAA Championship.   They got a great rotation guy and a future 1st for him after just one year, so what’s wrong with that pick?  
      Cardinal played in the league for years.  This draft is a win.  
      2001 – Rodney White & Memo Okur – You could argue that the draft position of those two players should have been switched.  There were a few guys who obviously should have been selected over White, but he was the Freshman of the year and what most thought to be a really talented player.  
      Because Memo worked out so well, I would consider this draft a wash.  
      2002 – Tayshaun Prince with the 23rd pick.  That’s a win. 
      2003 – Darko, Delfino & Gliniadakis - 
      Darko was a trainwreck.  They should have went with a more sound choice rather than a project.  That being said, I get the logic.  They thought he would thrive with the veteran leadership, but failed to factor in Larry Brown (widely known for his lack of interest in playing rookies, specifically a pansy from Serbia who would rather DJ than play basketball). 75% of the teams drafting there would have taken him.  Hindsight is 20/20, but we can call this draft a loss despite the fact that Delfino was a very solid pick and Gliniadakas was insignificant, but that holds true with the last picks in the second round.  
      2004 – Ricky Paulding – 54th pick – wash – who cares.
      2005 – Jason Maxiell, Amir Johnson, Alex Acker – that’s a win for Joe.
      2006 – Will Blaylock with the 60th pick – passed up on JJ Barea – who cares.  Wash.
      2007 – Stuckey (15th) and Afflalo (27th) – that’s a win for Joe.
      2008 – DJ White (29th) and Deron Washington – not much to say – Wash. 
      2009 – Austin Daye (15th), DaJuan Summers, Jonas Jerbko, Chase Budinger – Loss
      Austin Daye was miserable.  However they went off of need and passed on Jrue Holiday, Ty Lawson, Jeff Teague and Taj Gibson.  Gibson should have been the pick.  
      Jerebko was fine, Summers was useless and Chase is somehow making a midlevel deal after not playing for two years.  You could argue that two out of the four were good picks, but he whiffed on taking Daye because of his relationship with Austin’s Dad, making this a loss for Joe.
      2010 – Greg Monroe – That’s a win for Joe.  8 other teams passed on Paul George too.  Monroe was the right choice.  You can fault Joe for not having Kuester lose two more games and then would have been in the mix for Cousins, but that doesn’t impact this draft grade.
      2011 – Brandon Knight, Singler, Macklin – Singler was a solid 2nd round pick, Macklin (again, like most late 2nd round picks) was useless.  Knight was a solid pick.  Klay Thompson, Kawhi Leonard or Vucevic would have been better.  However, we needed a PG and that wasn’t a bad pick.  He’s going to be a contributor in this league.  
      Win for Joe.
      2012 – Drummond.  Enough said.  Middleton – same for where he was taken.
      2013 – KCP – incomplete at this point.  Who are you arguing he should have selected?  Trey Burke or Tim Hardaway?!?!  
      Seriously…Adams would have been fine, but didn’t fill a need, Burke is ok, Hardaway is ok, MCW is ok but probably would have filled a need and we wouldn’t have traded for Jennings.  Antetkotumbo (spelling) would have been awesome, but he very well could have been a project.  They couldn’t take a chance on that.  
      At this point, none of the guys he passed up on make me say that this was a horrible draft.   

      • Feb 24, 20147:19 pm
        by oats


        DJ White wasn’t really Detroit’s pick, he was OKC’s. The way draft trades tend to work is the team selects a player for another team and then execute the trade after they find out if the guy they were hoping to get later is still there. That’s what happened with Whitee, and Detroit drafted White with plans on moving him for Walter Sharpe and the pick that they used on Trent Plaisted later in that draft. It’s hard to fault him too much, but I really wanted DeAndre Jordan with that pick that was used on Sharpe. Houston also reportedly made the call on the Budinger pick as well.
        Anyways, I still agree that drafting is Joe’s strength.

  • Feb 24, 201410:18 pm
    by James


    And out of every draft pick you just named, how many even made it  2  ffull NBA seasons in Detroit or elsewhere for that matter? Drafting is certainly not a strength when 1 started on their championship team, a total of 2 contributed, Memo and Tay, and the other was a human victory cigar. I’m not in agreeance at all with his drafting success as you portray it. 

    • Feb 25, 201412:16 am
      by oats


      Look at where these guys were drafted. General rule of thumb is top 3 pick is potential All Star, top 10 is a starter, 11-15 are generally sixth man types, 16-25 are usually rotation pieces, and anything later than that is likely out of the league pretty quickly.
      He absolutely blew the Darko pick, but most of the league would have made the same mistake. Cleaves is below what should be expected, but that was the worst draft pretty much in the modern era of basketball. Rodney White was also a bust, but he managed to move him for value right away. Knight might be a little below his projection, but he is close to being a starting caliber SG. Monroe is probably a bit above what should be expected at 7, and Drummond is almost certainly going to be an All Star soon at 9. It’s too early to make a real call on KCP or the other rookies, so let’s ignore them for now. Landing a guy like Drummond at 9 skews things heavily in Joe’s favor.
      Outside the lottery is where Dumars has really shined. Stuckey is a low end starter or a really good 6th man. Maxiell was a good 3rd big man for awhile. Afflalo has turned into a near All Star caliber SG, and he arguably belonged in the game this year. Getting a former Olympian in Prince was also a great value pick. In the second round he got Memo, who was a pretty good starter before he got hurt. Amir is still a solid starter and was a late second round selection. Delfino was a long term rotation player, Jerebko looked like one prior to his injury, and Singler appears to be one as well. Heck, Middleton is starting to look like a reasonable starter. All of those guys are significantly better than the expected return in this range. Even if you throw in all of the misses, that’s still a strong draft record.

  • Feb 25, 201412:43 am
    by James


    I begrudgingly will meet you halfway on the drafting, seeing as how very few of those guys helped ON THE COURT. Still, it does nothing to move the needle for me, I WANT A NEW, FORWARD THINKING GM!

    • Feb 25, 201410:58 am
      by JYD for Life


      Well you’ve hit it there…your beef is not knowing how to manage personnel as opposed to not being able to evaluate talent. 
      We could probably agree that with the proper leadership Smith and Jennings might be really good together. 

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