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Pistons get destroyed in the second half, continue embarrassing run of losses

Memphis Grizzlies 112 Final

Recap | Box Score

84 Detroit Pistons
Greg Monroe, PF Shot Chart 35 MIN | 8-17 FG | 3-5 FT | 8 REB | 2 AST | 0 STL | 0 BLK | 1 TO | 19 PTS | -8Monroe played a good game, even doing a solid job on defense in the first half. In the second half, well, no Piston did.

Josh Smith, SF Shot Chart 35 MIN | 6-17 FG | 1-2 FT | 9 REB | 3 AST | 0 STL | 2 BLK | 0 TO | 13 PTS | -18On offense, Smith took lots of stupid shots. On defense, he got burned outside the paint. Inside the paint, he’d do a decent job until failing to ever box anyone out and got beat for tons of second chances.

Andre Drummond, C Shot Chart 36 MIN | 6-10 FG | 3-8 FT | 14 REB | 2 AST | 1 STL | 2 BLK | 1 TO | 15 PTS | -2Memphis played Drummond smart. They tied him up whenever he tried to make a post move. Meanwhile, Drummond did not play smart, getting into foul trouble (again), resulting in Cheeks stupidly yanking him early (again).

Drummond was pretty much the only good thing Detroit had going, he can’t lose it like that, especially with the technical he picked up on his way off the court.

Brandon Jennings, PG Shot Chart 35 MIN | 2-14 FG | 0-0 FT | 2 REB | 11 AST | 2 STL | 0 BLK | 2 TO | 4 PTS | -14All those assists look nice, but shooting 14% is unacceptable.

Kentavious Caldwell-Pope, SG Shot Chart 27 MIN | 6-8 FG | 0-0 FT | 1 REB | 0 AST | 1 STL | 0 BLK | 1 TO | 14 PTS | -9KCP isn’t good enough for his performance to usually swing a game either way, but he gave Detroit all they could ask for in this one.

Josh Harrellson, PF Shot Chart 6 MIN | 0-1 FG | 0-0 FT | 0 REB | 0 AST | 0 STL | 1 BLK | 0 TO | 0 PTS | -17Harrelson can’t seem to get many minutes of late. If that were because of smart big man staggering by Cheeks, I’d be pleased. Unfortunately, it’s probably because his D has been pretty weak since November.

Jonas Jerebko, PF Shot Chart 12 MIN | 1-2 FG | 1-1 FT | 4 REB | 0 AST | 0 STL | 0 BLK | 0 TO | 3 PTS | -13Jerabko probably only saw the floor because of Singler’s foul trouble. He did what he was supposed to. No more, no less.

Kyle Singler, SF Shot Chart 14 MIN | 2-3 FG | 2-4 FT | 2 REB | 0 AST | 0 STL | 0 BLK | 2 TO | 7 PTS | -18Singler was somehow on pace for more than 17 PFs per 48 minutes in this one. Normally, I don’t care how much bench players foul, but that was kinda crazy.

Will Bynum, PG Shot Chart 21 MIN | 3-11 FG | 0-0 FT | 2 REB | 4 AST | 0 STL | 0 BLK | 2 TO | 7 PTS | -17Bynum was the best Pistons PG in this game. He set an astonishingly low bar that nobody could beat.

Luigi Datome, SF 5 MIN | 0-1 FG | 0-0 FT | 1 REB | 1 AST | 0 STL | 0 BLK | 0 TO | 0 PTS | -3Datome only played meaningless garbage miutes.

Chauncey Billups, SG Shot Chart 14 MIN | 1-2 FG | 0-0 FT | 0 REB | 0 AST | 0 STL | 0 BLK | 2 TO | 2 PTS | -21“Mr. Big Turnover” is washed up. The Pistons need Stuckey back.

Maurice Cheeks
The Pistons got off to a good start as the Grizzlies tried to bring the ball inside and the Detroit bigs shut them down.

But it couldn’t last and switching to a zone certainly didn’t help. Neither did pulling Drummond (or Singler). Why are coaches so worried about their players fouling out. The worst that can happen is that they come out of the game. And that’s what happens when you pull them out preemptively, anyway.

229 Comments

  • Jan 5, 20144:05 pm
    by Brandon Knight

    Reply

    I missed Brandon Knight!
    I don’t agree with Smith getting an F.
    I just don’t understand why Smith has the green light to shoot it from deep all the time? Cheeks?
    Cheeks fuc*k you.
    Dear Dumars: Please make a trade.
     
     

    • Jan 5, 20144:10 pm
      by Otis

      Reply

      A trade? LOL You’re dreaming. This is our team. Best get used to it.

    • Jan 5, 20144:43 pm
      by Huddy

      Reply

      Is this your first time ever seeing or hearing about Josh Smith?  Who gives him the green light?  He has given himself the green light his entire career.  He costs too much and provides other abilities so it is tough to even properly discipline him for his actions.  Smith is a bone headed FA signing with a long career full of evidence that should make performances like this no surprise.

      • Jan 5, 201411:21 pm
        by Tim Thielke

        Reply

        Smith has a history of boneheaded shots, but nothing like this season. His career FG% coming in was 46.5%. This year, he’s at 40.1%.

        • Jan 6, 201412:21 am
          by Jodi aka "The Guru"

          Reply

          Yeah, lets also remember he’s playing the 3 now and he’s on a totally different team with a totally different offensive scheme…

          • Jan 6, 20143:33 am
            by Otis

            Tim, when Jodi J*zz of all people has to explain this to you, something is seriously wrong. Nobody can succeed the way this team is put together.
             
            There’s some clear bias in your grading here, and I think blaming Josh Smith is unfair. Playing him at the three and being angry at the results is like pouring whiskey down the throat of an alcoholic and screaming at him for being drunk.

          • Jan 6, 20147:02 am
            by oats

            @ Otis. Wait, are you saying Smith shouldn’t be penalized for making bad decisions because he just can’t help it? That makes no sense to me. He is still getting paid a lot money to play his best in this situation, and he isn’t doing that. The solution is not to give Smith a pass. The solution is to downgrade Smith, Cheeks, and Dumars for the fact that this keeps happening. Dumars isn’t getting game to game grades, but I see that both Smith and Cheeks failed for this game. That makes more sense to me than pretending like Smith is somehow doing something acceptable.

          • Jan 6, 20149:20 am
            by Tim Thielke

            If Smith’s shooting percentage dropped a little, that wouldn’t be surprising. But a tenth year player’s FG% dropping more than 6% just because he is in a new scheme (that doesn’t require him to carry the offense any more than he had in the past)? That’s very nearly unprecedented.

            And bear in mind, Smith is playing SF a higher percentage of his minutes now than he has any year since his rookie season. But it’s not like the position is new to him. He has spent significant minutes there pretty much every season of his career.

          • Jan 6, 20149:23 am
            by Tim Thielke

            Smith was signed basically because throughout his career, in spite of making lots of boneheaded plays, he has always been enormously productive. And he has always been a fabulous inside and out defender.

            So yes, I feel it is fair to expect him to be productive (although not to expect 0 bad shots) and to expect him to defend shooters (which he has more than enough length and quickness to do) and when defending the post, to box out. When he does none of the above, he gets an F.

            Please tell me which of these expectations you consider unreasonable.

          • Jan 6, 20149:24 am
            by I HATE FRANK

            Smith was better than a F…is you are going to judge his shot selection…
            He took only 2 three for the entire game… he took with with one 1 second left on the game clock in the first qrt, and the other 3 was in the 4th qrt to beat the shoot clock….
            He did take alot of long two’s(20 footer) … but went 3-6, and they were pretty decent looks if you ask me, when team pack the paint those are shots you have to take…or you risk over passing which for this team leads to turnover (IMO)
            Then from 16 feet and in where you’d want with to play he went 3-9…….
            I actually like the way smith played overall, he also grabbed 9rebs , 3ast , zero turnovers 2blks …played solid defense 
            I would have given him a C+

          • Jan 6, 201410:15 am
            by Vic

            Lets remind these geniuses that Josh Smith was the same inefficient shot chucker when he played the 4 in Atlanta, next to probably the best floor spacer in the NBA, the guy whose setting 3 point records this year “Kyle Korver”
            Of course thats why we had to pry him out of Atlanta’s cold dead hands, and Atlanta was #3 in the east without him…
            Man some of these commenters are so clueless
             

          • Jan 6, 201411:27 am
            by Tim Thielke

            Frank, one of those long makes, Smith was standing on the perimeter with both toes on the three point arc. Just hanging out there. He got the pass and went straight into a shot. When moving around, I can understand losing track of exactly where your toes are and accidentally turning a couple 3s into 2s. It should be rare, but it happens. This was unacceptable.

            So are you asking me to grade his shot selection or the results? I don’t understand your 16 foot cutoff (to me, the only meaningful distinction is whether he is at the rim or not), but even if we use it, he took way too many long shots and he missed way too many of his attempts. That’s terrible no matter how you slice it. It’s interesting that someone would hit the bad attempts and miss the good ones, but that doesn’t indicate a better performance.

            In what way did Smith play anything like solid defense? He got burned by every shooter he covered. And when he was guarding inside, he typically forced a miss before politely getting out of the way for the opponent to put back the rebound.

          • Jan 6, 20141:57 pm
            by Otis

            @oats: Believe it or not I don’t want to have to repeat this a thousand damn times. I go easy on Smith for several reasons. 1) If Joe Dumars brought him here for the sole purpose of playing SF alongside Monroe and Drummond, the formula was doomed from the start. It never looked like it was going to work, and surprise surprise, it’s not working. 2) Smith is already paid, and he’s not going anywhere. If you dump his contract, you’re still left with a devastating talent deficit, and this team needs all the talent it can get. I believe he can be a productive, if streaky, PF and has the potential to combine with Drummond to be one of the better defensive frontcourts in the league. But you’re not trading him for value, and you’re feeding all his bad habits and not taking advantage of ANY of his strengths by using him like this.
             
            I can’t blame any single player when the team is this poorly constructed and coached. And I’m only hard on Monroe because he HASN’T been paid, and he has tremendous value. Furthermore, he has far more value to just about any other team in the league than he has to us. So we’ll be in a PURE SHIT situation when someone like Phoenix offers him a max contract (which he certainly merits playing center exclusively in the right system) and we’ll be forced to match (and he will not merit that kind of contract for this team with its overabundance of big men). Instead of picking on Smith, why not pick on the dumbf*ck asshole who brought him here, and brought all the misery we’ve endured over the last half decade? Dumars is literally responsible for all of this, and it should be his head. If you thought Smith, Drummond and Monroe would thrive together you should have your head examined.

          • Jan 6, 20142:18 pm
            by oats

            @ Otis. Yeah, that makes no sense to me. You complain about how Monroe would kill the team’s flexibility if he gets a new deal, but you just give Smith a pass for being a similarly big deal ($1.5 million a year less annually than if Monroe gets maxed out) and being way worse. Even on the new deal, Monroe would have some trade value because he’s still a solid player. Smith is practically unmovable because he is awful, and the player who is to blame for a lack of flexibility is Monroe? I don’t get this logic at all.
             
            Was it reasonable to expect Smith to play worse on this roster and in this role? Of course. Is it reasonable to expect him to be this bad? No. He’s always played minutes at the 3. There have been a few games where he actually decided he was interested in getting down low, and he found success in those games. He is playing worse than he has any business playing. That should not get a pass, and you most definitely should not be putting all of the blame for this failure on the guy who is actually doing something right and playing within his strengths. I mean, you say you can’t blame any single player, but you sure as hell have spent a lot of time in these comments complaining about and blaming Monroe.
             
            Look, I don’t mind dumping on Dumars for creating a mess of a team, but there is absolutely nothing wrong with pointing out the mess is caused by Smith getting lots of money to be a bad basketball player.

          • Jan 6, 201410:24 pm
            by Merwin

            Don’t feed the troll

    • Jan 5, 20146:59 pm
      by PistonFanSinceDay1

      Reply

      I want us to get in that Cleveland and Lakers trade that has been rumored. Send Stuckey to the Lakers and we somehow get Waiters.

      • Jan 6, 20148:12 pm
        by Jodi aka "The Guru"

        Reply

        @PistonFan: Sounds like a good idea to me…

  • Jan 5, 20144:10 pm
    by Otis

    Reply

    GO PISTONS! Stay the course!

  • Jan 5, 20144:34 pm
    by jg22

    Reply

    um, Monroe did a good job defensively in the 1st half?
     
    Did you not see what Jon Leuer did?
     
    That was the turning point in the game, I thought, but everyone on the team deserves an F.
     
    How Monroe can get a B grade after losing by 30 at home to a bad team without their best player is beyond me.
     
    But hey, he shot a good % so…Like Al Davis said Just get stats baby, just get stats!

    • Jan 5, 20144:40 pm
      by Kamal

      Reply

      Of course that was the turning point in the game to people who hate Monroe.

      • Jan 5, 20144:45 pm
        by jg22

        Reply

        It was the turning point in the game to people who like their team to play defense, and not get lit up by scrubs off the bench.
         
        If it was a guard doing that to Jennings, I would’ve saidd the same thing. 
         
        Somehow people who love Monroe tune in only to see him on offense, and then leave the room every time he’s on defense. Because the way his bad defense can get totally overlooked, just for scoring a few point on offense, there’s no other explanation other than these people are just not watching that end of the court, or just don’t care about defense. I do, however.

        • Jan 5, 20145:19 pm
          by Kamal

          Reply

          Well, here’s the problem. When Monroe went to the bench in the first quarter, Leuer hadn’t scored a point yet and the Pistons were up 20-12. By then end of the first quarter, Leuer had two shots and the Pistons were down 28-27. I’m assuming you were talkinf about being the turning point in the game – because Monroe had nothing to do with it.
           
          Maybe you’re talking about in the second quarter where Leuer went off on those pick and pops. I guess you can pin those on Monroe and say that he’s the reason why the griz took the lead, even though they already had one with Monroe on the bench. But when Monrpe went to the bench in the second quarter, the Pistons were up by 7. So, I’m confused. Where was this turning point?
           
          and I never take up for Monroe’s defense. He’s not a good defender. But guys like you and Otis irk me because you never ridicule the others on their poor defense. drummond couldn’t keep Koufos from scoring in the paint. Smith couldn’t keep Randolph from getting into the paint. Who the hell was guarding Conley on all those threes? What about Bayless? I don’t even think Leuer scored in the second half and thats when the Pistons got ran. I don’t mind Monroenl getting criticized when it’s warranted. But when people ignore all the other poor play and just single out Monroe, I have to say something.

          • Jan 5, 20145:21 pm
            by Kamal

            I meant to say Leuer didn’t score in the second half while Monroe was in the game.

          • Jan 5, 20145:37 pm
            by Otis

            I don’t ridicule anyone’s bad defense. I have bigger problems on my mind. Everything about this team is broken. I’m not interested in picking on Monroe, I’m interested in trading him while we hold all the cards and avoiding a contract extension at all costs. Any fan of this team should be way past ridicule at this point. Our team is broken and nothing is being done about it. That’s all I care about.

          • Jan 5, 20148:00 pm
            by mike@michaelfoster.net

            I know Drummond is between a rock and a hard place on defense but, it seems like every game he gets into foul trouble – think 6 out of the last 7 games – are ALL loses.
            He’s got to learn FAST not to commit foolish fouls, stop leaping while his opponent pump fakes alone would remove at least 1 foul a game but, he is in need of some serious coaching when it comes to committing fouls, so far in his young career, he’s learned lots of dumb ways to commit fouls, but very few smart ways to avoid them.
            The point is not what Cheeks does AFTER Drummond is in foul trouble, the point is coach / train into Andre Drummond’s head that he cannot commit those EARLY fouls – EVER if at all possible.
            Andre plays semi-passive when he is in foul trouble, so even though he got 35 minutes and a 15/15 whatever… his impact on the game WHEN IT COUNTED – was not there.  
            I know he is better than most when in foul trouble but, out of foul trouble he is one of the top forces in the league in terms of impact on the game.
            Now, I’m not a stats guy but, I’d love to see some stats on what Andre does in foul trouble versus out – show them to Andre.
            I hope he learns how to play better defense someday, and stay in games.  Then…

          • Jan 6, 20149:10 am
            by I HATE FRANK

             @ Kamal “drummond couldn’t keep Koufos from scoring in the paint.”
            Koufous was 3-10 from the field…he only scored on Drummond Twice Both in the 3rd qrt…Both well designed plays to get Koufus into deep position in the paint….
             

    • Jan 5, 20145:18 pm
      by Otis

      Reply

      Have you noticed how the same people (and I’m not talking about Tim specifically here, but the kind of guys you’ll find at DBB) who make fun of players who are scorers who don’t do much else, and also make fun of the people who are fans of those players, all seem to love Greg Monroe for some reason. The kind of people who say, “Carmelo Anthony deserves max money because POINTZ” are the same ones who are CLAMORING to hand Moose an undeserved and richly regrettable max contract. It’s bizarre.

      • Jan 5, 20146:04 pm
        by oats

        Reply

        To be fair, Monroe is a scorer, rebounder, and passer. Of course, Melo is underrated as a rebounder and passer as well, but that’s a bit besides the point. There are some people that fit that description, but that’s hardly the entirety of the pro-Moose group. I for one think he’s already a max player and I think the odds are good that Detroit will be best served giving him whatever it takes to keep him, but I don’t think I’m in that group. I mean, it’s not like the pro-trade group has that different of a makeup. There were plenty of people that wanted to dump Monroe due to his awful defense and wanted to trade for another bad defensive player. Yet they see something else that they felt was desirable enough to take on another bad defender. Those things are only contradictory in the most surface level examination of the subject. Monroe isn’t a low efficiency gunner, so he really isn’t that much like the guys those people really dislike.

        • Jan 5, 20146:20 pm
          by Otis

          Reply

          This is a fair counterargument, but I’d rather feed my uncle to starved dogs than keep Monroe around any longer. I’ve seen enough. He’s a loser.
           
          Say what you want about Brandon Knight, at least he looks upset when interviewed after a game like this. Moose looks half asleep. He’s been losing since he got here, and he never does a damn thing about it. It doesn’t bother him. He’s either unwilling or unable to take over games and carry the team. He needs to go.

          • Jan 5, 20146:21 pm
            by Otis

            ^LOL Jennings. Brandon Jennings looks upset in post-game interviews. Oops.

          • Jan 5, 20146:51 pm
            by oats

            Armchair psychology is always fool proof as a talent evaluator. I mean, how about all those people that said the same thing about college aged Tim Duncan? I really don’t care about a guy’s off court demeanor, I care about on court production. Monroe’s a young big man that is capable of being a 16 point, 10 rebound, and 4 assist guy that has had impeccable health and can play either PF or C. That’s worth 4 years and $62 million in my mind.

          • Jan 6, 20143:38 am
            by Otis

            Agree with everything but the part where you said he’s a PF. Clearly he isn’t. It’s strange people delude themselves into thinking what they’re seeing is a quality PF when he trots out there. And he’s probably worth a max contract to a team that needs a post scoring center, not a team where he’s the second best center and can’t play PF, which he can’t. That is my exact worst fear, because somebody is going to offer it to him and he’ll be worth it to them, but he’s not worth that much to us because we have big men who are better than him and less expensive, and we have no perimeter. And you can’t keep on going like this, except you’ll have to because you have no flexibility. You’ve damned us all.

      • Jan 6, 20149:30 am
        by Tim Thielke

        Reply

        Monroe is under 15 ppg. He’s a solid scorer, but he is nothing like Anthony. And I am most certainly not clamoring to give him a max deal. I am, however, dead set on getting at least close to fair value if he is traded.

        And a young player who might earn a max deal (I don’t think this is certain anymore) should command more than a Jeff Green or Luol Deng or even Arron Afllalo.

        • Jan 6, 20141:06 pm
          by Steve Smith

          Reply

          “And a young player (Monroe) who might earn a max deal (I don’t think this is a certainty anymore) should command more than a Jeff Green or Luol Deng or even Arron Afflalo.”
           
          Is Tim Thielke a shill for the Detroit Pistons or is he really that delusional that he thinks Greg Monroe (14.6 PPG, 51% FG, 63% FT, 8.9 RPG) can warrant just about anything in return for a trade? It’s ridiculous to suggest that someone like Green (15.9 PPG, 44% FG, 39% 3FG, 79% FT, 4.5 RPG), Deng (19.0 PPG, 45% FG, 82% FT, 6.9 RPG, 3.7 APG) or Afflalo (21.2 PPG, 47% FG, 42% 3FG, 85% FT, 4.5 RPG, 4.0 APG) wouldn’t be worth getting in exchange for a poor defender playing out of position like Monroe. Frankly, the Pistons should jump at the chance to get any one of those three players, or even a wing player like E. Gordon, C. Parsons, D. DeRozan, E. Turner, G. Hayward, seeing as it would allow them to properly set up their lineup with J. Smith at PF and one of these players at the SG or SF positions. (It would be nice to go from having two starters playing out of position — Smith at SF, Monroe at PF — to having none plus a true SG or SF to go with Smith at PF.

          I know Monroe is just 23, but he’s in his fourth year in the league. He’s not inexperienced anymore and there’s no excuse for his laziness on defense. He likely is what he is — a good scorer who can rebound that is actually a true center and will never be able to guard PFs. As long as Drummond is Detroit’s starting C, Monroe will never truly fit on this club. Monroe is much more like Drummond, Roy Hibbert, DeAndre Jordan or Robin Lopez in terms of his footwork and mobility much more so than a Kevin Love, David West, Carlos Boozer, Kevin Garnett or LaMarcus Aldridge, hence the reason he is best suited to play C…. And if you remember correctly, the Pistons were playing Monroe at the 5 before Drummond got here.

          • Jan 6, 20142:07 pm
            by Otis

            My top priority is avoiding giving him a max contract or anything close to it. I have no doubt whatsoever that it would be a colossal mistake and highly regrettable. He simply is not worth that much to this particular club. I think he’s actually closer to a flat-out liability at almost any price, considering our top three players combine to form our WORST unit, and he’s the worst fit of the bunch. He is certainly worth max money in a vacuum to a team with a defensive, floor-spreading PF to pair him with. He will probably go on to have a nice long career putting up 16 and 8 for a decade with no defense whatsoever, but he’s not going to thrive alongside Drummond, and especially not with Smith in the mix. And both those guys are firmly entrenched (Dre because of talent, Smith because of money). So if I have to take a crap return for Monroe, I can live with that.
             
            But we DON’T have to take crap return. I’m 100% sure there is a deal out there that makes total sense somewhere among the 29 teams and hundreds of players in the league. My dream scenario would be getting a mid first rounder for him, and hopefully manage to keep our own pick as well, then come back next season completely reloaded with young talent and maybe push hard enough that the pick we send Charlotte isn’t so painful after all. But I’d take a good long look at any trade involving the above names. Literally the only way I’d be happy keeping Moose is if we got him on a sweetheart deal ($10-12M a year) that could easily be traded for huge value, and that’s just wishful thinking. He’s not going that cheap, and you can’t risk the chance someone who needs him and can afford him makes him a max offer. You just can’t.

          • Jan 6, 20142:44 pm
            by oats

            @ Steve Smith. Jeff Green is a focal point on a bad team and is putting up all of 16 points with solid shooting efficiency and playing below average defense. He’s not a bad player, but he is pretty unremarkable. He also has one year left on his deal after this year, followed by a player option for a second. That leaves some uncertainty on how long he will stay put. He is also 27 years old and has had major health concerns. You don’t move a 23 year old big man for a 27 year old SF that isn’t any more talented, has some serious health concerns, and might be tricky to retain if he doesn’t want to stay put.
            Luol Deng for Greg Monroe straight up sounds pretty fair on the surface of it. Deng is a good 2 way player, and a clearly better player than Greg. Deng did have some injury problems in the past and has missed some time this year, but he’s been reasonably healthy the last 4 years or so. Monroe has youth, health, and big man premiums on his side. That totally makes sense if Luol Deng was not on an expiring deal. Yet Deng is on an expiring deal and the team has no way of insuring they can retain him. That’s problematic.
             
            Afflalo at least doesn’t have health concerns, and he’s a good 2 way player. He does have a similar contract situation to Green, but he’s a better player right now and only a year older at 28. Of course, making the kind of leap he’s made this year at 28 is pretty rare. Just last year he was scoring 16.5 points a game while shooting .439 from the field and .300 on 3s. So did he really just make a huge leap, or is this a combination of a hot start combined with playing for a really terrible team? If he regresses then Detroit gets screwed, and if he keeps it up he will exercise that player option after next year and need a huge pay raise. This is the one that makes the most sense, but it’s awfully risky.
             
            Monroe is currently putting up a 15 and 9 with his touches way down this season. He’s a 23 year old big man that has missed all of one game since he got his first game action, and all of 3 games total in his career. He’s also going to be a restricted free agent. Yes, he’s going to make a lot of money on a maximum or near maximum salary, but that locks him up for 4 years. That’s a really valuable commodity around the league.

    • Jan 5, 201411:24 pm
      by Tim Thielke

      Reply

      I’m not going to hold Monroe responsible for Leuer hitting long jumpers, when he was guarding him or otherwise. Those were shots the Pistons wanted him to take. The fact that they went in was just bad luck.

      • Jan 6, 20143:39 am
        by Otis

        Reply

        LOL it always is. Just some dumb luck the Pistons have fallen on for the past five years running. It’s all dumb luck.

        • Jan 6, 20149:14 am
          by Tim Thielke

          Reply

          No, when shooters are hitting open shots, it’s poor defense. When non-shooters are hitting open shots, it’s a sound strategy backfiring. Do you really not see the difference?

          • Jan 6, 201411:12 am
            by sebastian

            But, Tim, this is Otis’ point about Moose not being a PF. He can’t guard the position, which by the way is a similar problem that B. Jennings and J. Smith are having. These guys Jennings (PG) nor Smith (SF) cannot guard the opposing position.
            So, ultimately, 3/5 of the starting team can’t guard their man in a League where man-to-man defense is the predominate defensive strategy.
            And, when you add that OUR starting SG is a rookie and has yet to go through the League and the starting center is a 20 year old with one year of college and played part-time minutes as a rookie, OUR Pistons are a collection of players who have compromised defensive tendencies and skills.
            Damn, you Joe Dumars!

          • Jan 6, 201411:34 am
            by Tim Thielke

            That’s a problem when the Pistons are playing against deep shooting PFs (the only time there is a meaningful difference between PF and C in today’s game). A guy who has yet to put up 50 threes for his career doesn’t qualify.

            And Smith has no excuse for not being able to defend SFs. He did a fine job of it in Atlanta. The rotation should be altered, but there is plenty of blame to put on Cheeks and especially Dumars without giving Smitha free pass for playing the worst he has in a long time.

          • Jan 6, 20142:11 pm
            by Otis

            1) You could have fooled me that he’s not a shooter. In today’s NBA, it seems like everyone and their mother is becoming a shooter unless they’re in a Pistons jersey. Did you see Gortat knocking down comfortable baseline jumpers last week? I didn’t know he was a shooter, but he looked comfortable as hell.
             
            2) Everything sebastian said. The team is built to fail, so when they fail it’s never a surprise. It’s not a damn accident that every no-name power forward you’ve never heard of looks like a f*cking All-Star when they’re matched up with Greg Monroe.

  • Jan 5, 20144:42 pm
    by jg22

    Reply

    This is a poorly coached team. They are mentally soft/undisciplined, as evident by the bad free throw shooting and defense. There’s no organization on offense. Just a 1 on 1 free for all. 
     
    There’s really nothing about this team that says well-coached team. Because they aren’t even a team. Its just a bunch of individuals playing 1 on 1 basketball on ends. No one moves to get open for their teammates on offense. No one moves to help their teammates on defense. 
     
    I like what Joe did with this roster, but he needs to go because once he again he picked a bad coach. I called it at the time he was hired. It doesn’t matter who you sign in FA because you can always trade them, but you can’t change coach’s every year. This was a monumental hire and he had to get it right. With proven winners like Hollins and Karl out there, theres no excuse for him to choose this proven loser bum in Cheeks.
     
    I actually like Cheeks as a person, and think he would’ve made a great assistant here, and that’ why Joe needs to go, because he once again hires an assistant to be his HC, after just going through the same thing with Frank. 

    • Jan 5, 20146:10 pm
      by oats

      Reply

      They are a bad free throw shooting team because they acquired a lot of bad free throw shooters. Smith is a really bad free throw shooter for a wing player, but ok if he’s a big man. Drummond is an abysmal free throw shooter. Monroe’s good for a big man, but he’s been down a bit this season. Those guys shoot a lot of free throws, so that makes Detroit a bad free throw shooting team. I agree with you on pretty much everything else, I just don’t think that this team being bad at the line has anything to do with coaching.

      • Jan 5, 20148:10 pm
        by jg22

        Reply

        I see what you’re saying, but the free throw problem with this team is all mental imo, and that’s just a microcosm of the team being mentally unfocused at everything else, and its up to the coach to keep his team sharp and focused.
         
        You can just tell that Cheeks pays very little attention to detail in practice, because the players totally disregard the little things on the court. The more you let that stuff go, the more it builds up in your head as a player. They can’t shoot FTs with a clear head because everything is a mess elswhere. Its related to poor coaching, imho.

        • Jan 5, 201411:27 pm
          by Tim Thielke

          Reply

          Then why were these players terrible free throw shooters in every previous setting? They’re just bad shooters. People are way too eager to chalk players’ problems up to psychology. Unless you know them personally, I don’t see how you can possibly do that.

          LeBron used to apparently lack the mental fortitude to win a championship. When he got better teammates, somehow that changed. Somehow, that seems less probable than that it was all just a stupid narrative in the first place.

          • Jan 6, 20142:43 am
            by jg22

            These guys may not have been great FT shooters to begin with, but how do you explain them all being significantly worse this season?
            Monroe 
            Career: 69%
            2014: 63%
            Jennings
            Career: 81%
            2014: 77%
            Smith
            Career: 65%
            2014: 59%
             
            When every player gets worse at the same thing, the coach gets the blame. Whether its mental, or he’s just not practicing FTs enough with them, I don’t know, but its his responsibility and he’s not getting it done. 

          • Jan 6, 20145:36 am
            by oats

            Normal variation. A 4% change is probably just random variation, especially considering we’re not even at the halfway point for the season and he will have time to potentially raise it back closer to his 80% mark. So that’s Jennings. Monroe shot 62% in his rookie season, so this is not all that unusual for him. Josh Smith just shot 52% from the line last year, so he’s actually on an upswing from that mark. Different players have different standards of variation, and none of those marks are significant enough to think it is anything unusual going on.
             
            Here’s an extreme example of how it’s not sound to blame the coaching for a dip that small. Entering year 7, Tim Duncan had a free throw percentage of 71% for his career. That year he shot only 60%. So, do you really think that failure was on Popovich, was it random variation, or did Duncan just happen to have an off year? Keep in mind Duncan has had only one coach in his entire NBA career. Robert Horry was 8% below his career average, Parker 3% below his average to that point, and Hedu Turkoglu was 5% below his average that year. So was Popovich especially negligent for the ’04 Spurs that won 57 games?
             
            My answer is that shooting percentages tend to fluctuate. Field goal percentage and 3 point percentage could be based on how the coach is using players, but free throw percentage is almost entirely on the players in question. A couple guys are having years below their career average, but not unusually far below it. I’m willing to beat that is true of most every team in most every year.

          • Jan 6, 20147:02 pm
            by jg22

            I think you are reading way too deep into the numbers. The fact is they are all worse, and 4-6% is actually significant difference when it comes to shooting.
             
            Sure they have all had fluctuating FT% throughout their careers, but when they all go down in the same year, its not just a coincidence imo
             
             

          • Jan 6, 20148:02 pm
            by oats

            5% is the typical statistical threshold for being significant. 4% is just not in any way significant. 6% is technically enough that a statistician would note it, but it’s really not something they would care about. This is meaningless. If every single player was down then you’d have a point. That’s just not the case though. Two players that are just a tiny bit past the baseline for statistical relevance is insignificant, especially since one of them has been in this range before and the other was worse just last year. That’s also with nearly half the season left for them to get their percentages up. This is completely meaningless.

    • Jan 5, 20146:31 pm
      by Vic

      Reply

      Exactly

    • Jan 5, 20147:57 pm
      by grizz3741

      Reply

      JG22 .. everything you said … total agreement ..

      • Jan 6, 20149:31 am
        by Tim Thielke

        Reply

        Wow, this board must be full of psychologists who know several Pistons professionally.

  • Jan 5, 20144:57 pm
    by frankie d

    Reply

    In some ways the problems are pretty simple:  your two worst shooters take the most shots.  That is a recipe for losing from the playground to the nba.  Especially when one of those bad volume shooters is one of the league’s worst ball hogs.  
    And add into the mix a coach who is notoriously laissez-faire about his team’s offense…
    There are not many teams that could consistently overcome that combination.
    The only question is how any idiot would have imagined that anything different would happen.  
    This entire season was so painfully predictable, how could anyone be surprised?

    • Jan 5, 20145:05 pm
      by jg22

      Reply

      The problem is they have a coach who takes the same mindset as you, in that its always the offense to blame. 
       
      They gave up 112 pts to a bad team without its best player at home, and I didn’t hear one thing about defense in Cheeks press conference. All he said was he’s got to do a better job of getting more ball movement on offense. As if had they done that, they would’ve scored 113 and won the game.
       
      Their losing has less to do who is taking shots on offense, and mostly due to playing zero defense. Though I will say the whole team has become jumpshot happy over the last few weeks, which is contributing to it. But thats more because everyone just stands around. Someone has to shoot. Ultimately though, if they had a great defense they could be winning these games even if shots aren’t going in.
       
      With Cheeks, the answer to everything is “they made shots, we didn’t”. smh
       

      • Jan 5, 20145:24 pm
        by Otis

        Reply

        “With Cheeks, the answer to everything is “they made shots, we didn’t”. smh”
         
        Yeah this is a big problem. I’ve heard it in almost literally every press conference I’ve watched (I don’t watch press conferences after wins because, unlike the Pistons, I have self respect). He spews this crap over and over, as if there’s some even distribution of talent, specifically shooting, where some day it’s going to be your turn. You can’t shrug off all these missed shots when you DON’T HAVE PROVEN SHOOTING. It’s just not there on the roster. Yet they just throw up their arms as if they expect bad shooters to shoot well just because they play for Detroit. It’s maddening. His tapping and sighing today was the worst. He’s the worst. There is no leadership in Detroit, from the owner to the GM to the coach to the players. None.
         
        And these turkeys want to come out and say one player is the problem, or one little thing. This organization is broken at every level.

        • Jan 5, 20148:16 pm
          by jg22

          Reply

          yeah, someone needs to tell Cheeks the reason the other team is making shots and you aren’t, is because you are letting them make shots and they are actually playing defense.
           
           

    • Jan 5, 20145:19 pm
      by Otis

      Reply

      Frankie, you aren’t even CLOSE to having anything figured out about this team. Go play in the snow.

      • Jan 5, 20145:40 pm
        by frankie d

        Reply

        Lol…it dont snow here!
        It rains likw a mf’er though!
        Btw, bad offense leads to bad defense.  Rarely is the floor balanced when smith and jennings jack up their shots. 
        Leads to lots of open shots for the other team, either in transition or by players trailing.  Lauer got several shots like that and its one of the reasons a lot of scrubs have career days against detroit.  They hustle downcourt and even if they dont get a shot off the fast break, they will often be open because detroit’s defense is not set because of poor defensive rotations.
        There was a wall street journal article on bargnarni that discussed the problems he creates because teams are able to break and create offfense off his misses.  He was the league’s worst in that regard; jennings was second.

        • Jan 5, 20146:11 pm
          by Otis

          Reply

          Okay, here’s one for you that occurred to me while combing through the neanderthal commentary over at DBB:
           
          This team is two games better than it was last season. Josh Smith and Brandon Jennings haven’t made this team worse. If they were the problem, wouldn’t the team be worse? They’re our highest usage new additions, take all the shots, but the Pistons are a hair better than they were last season. 14-20 instead of 12-22. If Jennings and Smith were the problem, this team wouldn’t be better now (however slightly) than it was this time last year.
           
          My overall premise is that every aspect of this team is broken, even the fans who continue their financial support and refuse to identify the actual problems. Relative to where they need to be, this team is probably worse off than they were last year (not much flexibility to look forward to if they’re married to Greg, and god help us it appears they are). So the future is as bleak as ever. But this is the SAME DAMN TEAM you’ve been watching for the past five years. Nothing ever changes. New faces, same problems. Jennings and Smith weren’t around last year, and we were a close approximation of the miserable team that continues to be roughly as bad as it was before they got here.

          • Jan 5, 20146:37 pm
            by oats

            Last year the team had Brandon Knight, Tayshaun Prince, and Jason Maxiell starting those first 22 games. The best player in that group is Prince, and Drummond is quite a bit better than him. So being less than 2 games better than Brandon Knight and Jason Maxiell isn’t exactly a ringing endorsement for Jennings and Smith. I mean, are you that certain Drummond plus fewer teams trying to win isn’t the entirety of that difference? Yeah, that’s not a strong argument that those two aren’t the problem.

          • Jan 5, 20146:52 pm
            by Otis

            I’m not endorsing Jennings or Smith, just pointing out that the cast of characters changes and it’s still just shit. Joe Dumars is the disease. Everything else is a symptom.

          • Jan 5, 20147:37 pm
            by PistonFanSinceDay1

            You’ve caught a disease if you actually believe the trash that Otis is spewing! Please tell me another GM that could do a better job than Dumars? If Smith becomes the main reason we’re losing please believe they’ll be teams willing to take him. And you’re lying to yourself if you think all we’ll get is a bunch of expiring contracts or role players in return for Smith. Jennings on the other hand probably isn’t going anywhere, but we needed a PG that could assist and we got one.

          • Jan 5, 20147:51 pm
            by oats

            @Otis. Except you did argue that Jennings and Smith weren’t the problem. I’ve read it a few times, and you are somewhat endorsing Jennings and Smith by crediting them for the small improvements the team has made since last year, or at least you are clearing them of the blame for the way the team is currently playing. My point was that they even if they get some small amount of credit for that improvement, they can still be at fault for the team being bad. I’m not seeing how I was off with that rebuttal.
             
            @ PistonsFan. I hate the name another GM argument. For the most part we don’t really have much in the way of names that we know about front office personnel at all. They just aren’t very high profile except for when a search is actually ongoing. That inability to name someone that we have no reason to know the name of is not evidence that there isn’t someone out there. There are lots of smart people in basketball front offices somewhere, and one of them will be a good GM when given the chance. Since Dumars has been pretty bad since the Iverson trade, that means there are potential GMs that could do a better job than him. Their lack of fame is irrelevant to that.
             
            I actually am not convinced the team could move Smith for expiring deals right now. He has been terrible this year, and he makes a ton of money. Yeah, teams know that is largely due to him playing SF, but he’s been so bad that I still think he’s bordering on unmovable even considering that. I really don’t see who would give up much of anything of real value for him. The only team that might remotely consider it is Houston since he’s buddies with Howard and they are desperate to move Asik, but I think they need more than just Smith to do even that. Plus, Asik makes no sense in Detroit so a 3rd team would need to be involved.

          • Jan 5, 20148:47 pm
            by PistonFanSinceDay1

            I don’t understand how you can say Dumars is bad? Billups was trading for an old star who could still put butts in the seats and had an expiring contract. Dumars clearly knew we were about to re-build so he started by trading Billups. Ben Gordon had 2 previous 20ppg season before signing with the Pistons so you can’t argue that Dumars wasn’t doing himself due diligence by signing him. Charlie V was a disappoint, I admit that. Knight had 2 seasons to prove he was a PG and he didn’t. So we traded him for a player who’s 24yrs old and is damn near dishing out 9ast per game. We signed Josh Smith to a 56mil deal to change the culture of this team and people expect to see a difference in the 1st season. We have to be realistic about this.
             
            Every player has value and every player has a tradeable contract in NBA. If weak ass Bargnani can be traded, I know anyone can be traded. Just because we as fans think someone sucks doesn’t mean these GM’s think the same as us. For example Mr. Oats, I’ll give you two trade scenario since Otis is scared to give out trade scenario’s because they’ll probably get laughed at.
            Rockets get: Smith
            Celtics get: Asik
            Pistons get: Green
            or
            Wizards get: Smith
            Pistons get: Ariza, Porter, Seraphin/or Booker
             
            Now if you want me to make the salaries match I’ll do that, but I wanted to give you an example. Smith can be moved if Dumas wanted to move him.

          • Jan 5, 201410:38 pm
            by oats

            I actually think that the Billups trade was excusable, but it works as a convenient line of separation. It’s the moves after that I have a problem with. Right after the trade he extends Hamilton to a big deal, and then that same summer he signed Gordon to a big deal. That makes exactly no sense. He talked of how they would be able to share the court, and for that to happen it would require Hamilton to play the 3, but Prince was on the team and he’d have to play at the 4. That makes no sense. The alternative would be for Gordon to play the point, which makes even less sense. If the goal was to get someone that would make a solid 3rd guard off the bench and play multiple positions, the Pistons already had Afflalo on the team. Because they paid Gordon tons of money they needed to dump Afflalo for cap space that they turned around and used on CV.
             
            CV being a failure was extremely predictable. He was supposed to be hitting restricted free agency, but the Bucks cared so little for him that they didn’t even him the qualifying offer. Giving him the qualifying offer would give them leverage to try to sign and trade him, the way the Bucks just did with Jennings this past summer. They decided that the risk of him going back to the team for another year was to great to try to get that kind of leverage. That is a huge warning sign that Dumars ignored in order to over pay a guy for a career year in a contract season. Admittedly that’s a really common mistake, but it’s still a mistake.
             
            Austin Daye was a predictable mistake ahead of Ty Lawson. I think Pope over Burke was clearly the wrong call as well. I don’t fault him too much for Knight because I understood the logic, even if I really wanted Kawhi with that pick and spent the rest of the night hoping he would somehow trade Knight to get at either Kawhi Leonard or Kenneth Faried. Similarly I give him credit for Singler even though I wanted Parsons. He does get some credit for Drummond and Monroe, but not blowing an easy call seems like a relatively small selling point. I will also give him credit for drafting Middleton, but I have to wonder if it was the right call to trade away Middleton as part of the Jennings trade instead of trading away Singler. This is still his strong point as a GM, but let’s not pretend like he’s been all that remarkable.
             
            Dumars also had a chance to trade Tayshaun’s expiring deal for an injured Caron Butler’s expiring deal and their first round pick. That trade likely would have helped the team tank that year, which in turn with have likely left them with a higher pick than where they took Knight. Admittedly some of those guys taken earlier in that draft haven’t been that good, and Detroit has had some luck since, but it is better to have a higher pick than not to. That pick from Dallas was used on Jordan Hamilton, a young player that I still wouldn’t mind taking a flyer on. My favorite players on draft night that were still around during that pick were Jimmy Butler and Chandler Parsons, so that pick represented some value if it was used right. Dumars decided that Prince was worth more than that pick, so he gave him a contract that I still think was an overpay. Apparently Dumars agrees now since he traded Prince for just an expiring deal and no draft pick. This whole thing seems like it was clearly a mistake.
             
            Here’s the big one. He traded away Ben Gordon and a draft pick for essentially nothing despite the fact that the team could amnesty Gordon. That makes sense if they were reserving the amnesty for CV to clear up a ton of space, but he never used the amnesty. That means he traded away the pick for nothing. The knowledge that it might be hard to get a top 8 pick helped prod him into deciding to give Josh Smith a lot of money to play a position he stinks at. Josh Smith has been terrible.
             
            So yes, I would say that since the Billups trade he has been a bad GM. I get that even good GMs make mistakes, but even bad ones make some good moves from time to time. My big problem is that I don’t see anything that looks like a coherent plan in all of these moves. I don’t know what kind of identity he sees the team having, and I don’t see some kind of philosophy on team building at play behind these moves. They just feel chaotic to me.
             
            On to the trades. I don’t think Houston trades Asik for Smith. I think Asik is better than Smith, and I’m not buying that the buddies with Howard means that much any more. Placating him when trying to bring him in is one thing, but he’s on the team now and they can just settle for winning to make him happy. I think they want to do quite a bit better than Smith in an Asik trade. Plus Green is a really average player. I’m not convinced he’s all that much better than Kyle Singler, but he makes more than 8 times as much money.
             
            Ariza’s been a lot better than Smith this year. I doubt they deal him straight up for Smith, and I really can’t see them giving up something on top of that. I think you are seriously overvaluing Smith in that trade.

          • Jan 5, 201411:36 pm
            by Tim Thielke

            If the failures of CV and BG were so unpredictable, how come those signings were nearly universally panned immediately? The story lines were something like “all that cap space was just burning a hole in Dumars’ pocket as he overpaid for mediocre players”. Yes, they were worse than we possibly could have expected. But he had no reason to expect those to be good signings, just less bad ones.

          • Jan 5, 201411:43 pm
            by Smitty

            @Oats it hurts my brain to read that and realize how bad Joe D has been. Not to mention him giving away amir and affalo. Also the terrible coaches he has hired the last 4 tries. If I was Gores I would have fired him and Cheeks after this game. The problem is I think Gores is cheap. Which is why we trade Gordon and 1st rounder instead of Amnesty. That saved him a bunch of money. Also why we hired Cheeks instead of a proven good coach, and the same reason why he will probably let Dumars contract just run out, instead of trying to say fuck it and blow this whole thing up.

          • Jan 6, 201412:13 am
            by oats

            @ Smitty. I was doing that from memory, and I completely forgot to mention dumping Amir for no good reason. That’s a serious omission. They cleared up a little more than $1 million because the salary cap hadn’t been set and they wanted to make certain they had enough cap room to squeeze in both BG and CV. Admittedly they didn’t know who they would end up with or how much they would spend on them, but I have to assume they thought that was goal since they landed both players on the first day of free agency. Turns out they didn’t need the cap space for them, and then spent more money than they saved by dumping Johnson on Chris Wilcox. I know it wasn’t exactly a decision between Johnson and Wilcox since they didn’t know how much they would pay CV. They did clearly choose CV over Johnson though.

          • Jan 6, 201411:16 pm
            by Otis

            @oats: It is both hilarious (to me) and positively horrifying (to anyone who’s stupid enough to take your word for it) how specific and incorrect your recollection of the Afflalo trade is. Really troubling stuff for a guy who’s got all the details nailed for a scenario that is nowhere near reality.
             
            The salary cap was set on July 7. Gordon and Villanueva were signed simultaneously. Afflalo was dumped on the 13th along with Walter Sharpe (and a corresponding swap of Amir for Fabricio Oberto, so the team could turn around and renounce Oberto and save half of Amir’s $3.5ish mil salary) because the Pistons had Rip and Gordon at SG (LOL) and had just drafted three SFs a month earlier (double LOL), so they determined that he was the odd-man-out and cut him and Amir for the express purpose of adding another big man, to wit: Chris Wilcox. It’s downright troubling that you’ve crafted this specific and wildly inaccurate narrative. This should be enough for nobody to ever take your word on anything.

          • Jan 7, 20142:34 am
            by oats

            @ Otis. My order of putting it out is a little garbled, but I did make a small mistake. Amir was traded on June 23rd before the cap was set. I have that part right. I said they signed BG despite having Afflalo on the roster, and I got that right. I also mentioned in there that BG and CV were signed on the first day of free agency, although that was part of my correction when I realized I missed the Amir dumping, but I got that right. I did make a mistake. I said they traded Afflalo for cap space, which they did, but I mistakenly said they spent it on CV. You are absolutely right that CV was on the roster already when that trade happened. My mistake. They did move him for room to get Wilcox. I sort of mentioned that when talking about the Amir trade.
             
            That was actually the mistake I made originally. I forgot that it was only Amir traded before the cap was set, and for some reason I thought they both were. When I got back to the Amir trade I remembered it was just Amir, which is where I mentioned that someone was traded before the cap was set and moved unnecessarily, but I forgot that I mistakenly hinted that Afflalo had been and didn’t correct myself. You are absolutely right about that, and if I had an edit function I’d clear up that last sentence of the first paragraph.
             
            The important point I was making that they had Afflalo to fill the third guard role and Amir as an extra big man, and they decided to move them both to get Gordon, CV, and Wilcox. I had a relatively minor bungling of the timeline, but you did too. Congratulations Otis, you are exactly as wrong as me and therefore no one should ever listen to a single thing you ever say again.

          • Jan 7, 20142:48 am
            by oats

            Oh, and if you don’t believe me about Amir moving earlier, I’ve got a source for you.

          • Jan 7, 20144:07 am
            by oats

            Oh, I did poorly word that Amir thing too. They may have needed to clear up some cap space for both BG and CV, but due to the Afflalo trade later they ended up clearing up more cap space than was necessary. They then spent more money on Wilcox than they had saved by dumping Amir, so if they had just done the Afflalo trade first thy could have afforded to keep Amir. They might not have had the Afflalo trade available, and at the time of the Amir trade they didn’t know exactly where the cap was going to be set or how much they would end up paying CV and Gordon, so they didn’t know that was a possibility. Still, it turns out they could have had any 3 of the CV, Gordon, Wilcox, Afflalo, and Johnson group. Sorry, that’s what I was trying to say there.
             
            Anyways, I still maintain these are relatively minor errors that are really common without the help of an editor to proofread and not some grand concoction on my part.

          • Jan 7, 20143:34 pm
            by Otis

            I was just astonished at the level of detail you provided for an imaginary scenario.

          • Jan 8, 20141:26 am
            by oats

            2 sentences is a lot of detail to you? Seriously?
             
             
            ” If the goal was to get someone that would make a solid 3rd guard off the bench and play multiple positions, the Pistons already had Afflalo on the team. Because they paid Gordon tons of money they needed to dump Afflalo for cap space that they turned around and used on CV.”
             
            That is the totality of what I said about the Afflalo trade. 7 words at the end of that were inaccurate, and it was a pretty honest mistake that I copped to. I still don’t even know what elaborate scenario you think I had for the trade, but it doesn’t exist.

      • Jan 5, 20148:17 pm
        by jg22

        Reply

        I literally started laughing out loud when you told frankie to go play in the snow,
         
        hahaha

    • Jan 5, 20145:48 pm
      by Parsons

      Reply

      I’m no coach but since we crawled back to .500 we’ve given up 107.78 ppg. I’d guess thats the problem. Our D is terrible and our offence is not going to average 109 ppg. Not too many teams can.

      • Jan 5, 20148:20 pm
        by jg22

        Reply

        Bingo, Parsons.
         
        No one in this organization cares about defense apparently. Otherwise someone at the top would speak up and suggest maybe starting a more defense oriented lineup on the court.
         
        Even worse, our best on-ball defender on the team, Siva, is off putting up triple doubles getting 8 steals a game for the Mad Ants, while we get abused. Ya think we could be using him right now? Good timing sending him there now, Joe.

        • Jan 5, 201411:35 pm
          by Kathy Clater

          Reply

          Siva my all time favorite player, been watching his games with Mad Ants.  So happy he’s finally getting some burn somewhere, and it definitely shows.  He’s been shooting the 3 well too.  Maybe some of the GM’s in Reno who are actually good at developing rookies will give him a shot after this year.  I’d love to see him work with Jerry West, who loves his game.  Been following the Pistons since Siva got drafted, but kind of giving up that they will do anything at all to develop their young guys.

          • Jan 5, 201411:46 pm
            by Smitty

            Stop making fun of the Pistons Kathy. HAHA, I know it’s hard when this team is a joke.

    • Jan 5, 20146:39 pm
      by Vic

      Reply

      Frankie is right. It’s only those with no bball iq that can’t see the connections between lazy offense and difficult defense.
      But when your two biggest offseason signings are known to have minimal bball iq, it’s easy to foresee. Then you add a “players coach” to the mix. 
      Everybody who  saw it coming aLso prescribed the solutions… And it wasn’t “trade greg Monroe for whatever you can get!”

  • Jan 5, 20144:59 pm
    by Parsons

    Reply

    Right now we are the 10th worst team. Cleveland, New York, and Brooklynn should all get better soon too especially if Cleveland lands Gasol. Sadly we may not lose that pick after all. I wonder if we could work out a deal that Charlotte could take a player a pick for as soon as we can offer and in return we keep our pick this season. Although with only 9 teams below us this might not be necessary.

    You know I was hoping at least we would be good enough that I would be rooting for wins not for a better draft pick. Oh well, as the Chicago cubs say just wait till next year.

    • Jan 5, 20145:05 pm
      by Parsons

      Reply

      On the other hand though Charlotte couldn’t have asked for a better pick from us. Between 9 and 14 is better than they probably thought it would be.

      • Jan 5, 20146:04 pm
        by Jon

        Reply

        I’ve been feeling the same way lately. Keep Smith for the year so that he keeps submarining the team, then unload him for absolutely anything once the season’s over. That alone might be enough to ensure they get to the bottom 8

  • Jan 5, 20145:28 pm
    by D_S_V

    Reply

    It’s getting to the point that despite Smith’s horrible play, I don’t think the team would be much better, even if they used him appropriately (exclusively as PF). Joe made the mistake (desperate move?) of trying to get players that don’t fit but may help winning now rather than getting pieces that would complement Drummond and Monroe while the team grows. And those players don’t even help the team win now!

    • Jan 5, 20146:47 pm
      by Jodi aka "The Guru"

      Reply

      Be patient…

      • Jan 6, 201412:20 am
        by gmehl

        Reply

        Jodi i have to ask but are you actually Joe D by any chance. With some of your silly posts I’m assuming it might be warranted.

        • Jan 6, 201412:28 am
          by Jodi aka "The Guru"

          Reply

          Hahaha, no I’m not Dumars but I do work for a NBA team(hint hint)…I’m sorry if you think I make silly comments, I try to be serious most of the time…Please tell me which comments I’ve made that you think are silly…

          • Jan 6, 20141:07 am
            by smitty

            Keith Langlois?

          • Jan 6, 20143:48 am
            by Otis

            Jodi, literally almost everything you say is totally asinine and completely skewed towards trusting the Pistons’ rudderless impotent kamikaze front office. If I had to guess, you actually probably think exactly like I figure Hooper probably does, presuming he was genetically engineered to be a mutant man horse who literally exists only to root on the Pistons and wave that flag. Are you Hooper?

          • Jan 6, 20142:28 pm
            by PistonFanSinceDay1

            Jodi you must have had a sex with Otis’s girlfriend or something. Please give us the details!

          • Jan 6, 20147:06 pm
            by jg22

            Ok, its solved. Jodi is Hooper!!

          • Jan 6, 20148:21 pm
            by Jodi aka "The Guru"

            @Smitty: Hahaha, no sir… Kieth Langlois is cool…He answered a couple of my questions during his “mailbag” session…
             
            @Otis: Where is all this hate coming from?.. If I bullied you earlier in your life, I’m truly sorry…Hahaha, and no I’m not Hopper…
             
            @PistonFan: wow!..I wouldn’t do that because I wouldn’t want that done to me…Karma is real…
             
            @jg22: For the second time, I’m definitely not Hopper…Lol!..

          • Jan 7, 20143:36 pm
            by Otis

            @Hooper: The hate comes from how universally awful your opinions are. No more, no less.

  • Jan 5, 20145:33 pm
    by mshansky

    Reply

    two comments:
    1. The Pistons current record is 14-20. Last year it was 12-22 at the same point. Is anyone really claiming that this is a better TEAM? Are they improving as the season progresses? Do they have even the semblance of an identity? My point is that this team is hardly an improvement, even if the talent has een “upgraded”. And Andre Drummond is not ananswer. Remind me again how many games he has dominated, or even influenced the outcome of ina major way.
    2. Unlike some of the toadies who write for detroit papers, i dont find the 2nd half collapses “minor”.Other teams turn it up the second half and the pustons stay in 2nd gear..That IS one of tbe main problems. They do not “bring it” every night or even every quarter on some nights. A disaster of a team, really. Unwatchable, and not worthy of paying a dime to see in person.

    • Jan 5, 20145:42 pm
      by Otis

      Reply

      Toadies is a good word. The second half is all about adjustments and putting the pedal to the metal. This team doesn’t have the leadership, talent, backbone, structure, what-have-you to do those things. Clueless people watch a game like this and wonder why we can’t win games when we come out strong in the first half. Astute people understand that the first half doesn’t mean much as long as the score is close at halftime, and with the Pistons sometimes it doesn’t even have to be that close.
       
      How anyone is still making excuses for this team or pointing to one or two details as the problem is beyond me. Some people just have this loser’s mentality and nothing can be done about it. Just like a woman stays in an abusive relationship, Piston fans keep making excuses and hoping for change without anything ever actually being done about it.

    • Jan 5, 20146:29 pm
      by oats

      Reply

      I’d say Drummond was a dominant force in about half the games this year. Take a look at some of his stat lines. Keep in mind, we’re talking over the course of 34 games this year for a 20 year old. I don’t know how you can look at this and come to any conclusion other than that he is an answer:
       
      1) 12 points, 16 rebounds, 3 steals, and 2 blocks
      2) 15 points, 12 rebounds, 2 steals, and 2 blocks
      3) 16 points, 16 rebounds, 2 steals, and 1 block
      4) 16 points, 14 rebounds, 3 steals, and 3 blocks
      5) 15 points, 18 rebounds, and 2 steals
      6) 14 points, 13 rebounds, 2 steals, and 1 block
      7) 13 points, 11 rebounds, 2 steals, and 3 blocks
      8) 15 points, 16 rebounds, and 2 blocks
      9) 31 points, 19 rebounds, 6 steals, and 2 blocks
      10) 10 points, 18 rebounds, 2 steals, and 1 block
      11) 24 points, 19 rebounds, 2 steals, and 3 blocks
      12) 19 points, 14 rebounds, 2 steals, and 2 blocks
      13) 22 points, 13 rebounds, 1 steal, and 2 blocks
      14) 13 points, 14 rebounds, 3 steals, and 3 blocks
      15) 14 points, 16 rebounds, and 2 blocks
      16) 14 points, 15 rebounds, and 3 blocks
      17) 16 points, 16 rebounds, 2 steals, and 1 block
      18) 15 points, 14 rebounds, 1 steal, and 2 blocks.

    • Jan 5, 20148:22 pm
      by jg22

      Reply

      The roster is clearly better than last year.
       
      The problem is while upgrading the roster, they may have actually downgraded coaching in the process.
       
       

  • Jan 5, 20145:50 pm
    by sebastian

    Reply

    I’d say that “a no sacred cow” press conference is in order from Joe. This sh!t has gone too far, already!

    • Jan 5, 20146:55 pm
      by Jodi aka "The Guru"

      Reply

      Hahaha…

  • Jan 5, 20145:54 pm
    by Robb

    Reply

    Once 3rd quarter ended with Detroit down 10, I turned game off as they had no shot…
     
    I agree with a lot of you but still think the team is undisciplined and does not play proper defense…
     
    MSU could beat this team…

  • Jan 5, 20145:57 pm
    by mshansky

    Reply

    I really believe that if they put a team out there that played their butts off EVERY NIGHT and EVERY QUARTER, not only would their w/l record be better (duh) but people would actually pay to see them and be patient as the necessary pieces are added.

    • Jan 5, 20146:15 pm
      by Otis

      Reply

      Necessary pieces added HOW? If they want to keep Monroe and Stuckey, they HAVE NO MONEY to add new pieces. And, oh shit I forgot, they HAVE NO FIRST ROUND PICK because of that abortion of a trade Joe made that sent Gordon to the Bobcats. THERE IS NO FUTURE if this team doesn’t make a deadline deal. What part of this makes you think patience is the order of the day??

      • Jan 5, 20146:31 pm
        by oats

        Reply

        Why do they want to keep Stuckey so badly? He’s a nice piece I guess, but if they let him walk they have $10 million to spend to try to get better.

        • Jan 5, 20146:54 pm
          by Otis

          Reply

          If they TRADE HIS ASS they’ll still have $10M to spend. There is no reason whatsoever to keep him around.

          • Jan 5, 201411:39 pm
            by Tim Thielke

            oats,
            I don’t think there is a commenter I agree with on these boards more consistently than you. But Otis is right about this one. Unless you expect Stuckey to make the Pistons a contender this year, they should be peddling him to see if he can bring back any asset for the future.

          • Jan 5, 201411:51 pm
            by oats

            I honestly wasn’t aware I disagreed with that stance. Otis said the Pistons have no money if they want to keep Stuckey and Monroe. I responded with why do they want to keep Stuckey. Otis then told me we should move Stuckey now. I don’t actually disagree with that, I just thought it was important to note that they will have money in the off season even without a trade because they likely will let Stuckey go. In fact, the only way they have $10 million is if they don’t take on any money past this season, and I suspect that the odds are good that any Stuckey deal will take on some money. That doesn’t mean they shouldn’t be shopping Stuckey, that’s just something to take into account. My point is that they do have a bit more room for growth than Otis made it sound.

      • Jan 5, 20148:25 pm
        by jg22

        Reply

        Is there really any motivation to keep either of them, if this is the result you get by having them on the team?
         
        I mean, I could understand being determined to keep Monroe if he was instrumental to our success. But when there is nothing but failure, I just don’t see how using all our money to bring him back solves anything. 
         
        We need not resign either, and use the money to go hard after Carmelo in FA instead.  In addition to firing Joe and Cheeks first

        • Jan 5, 20148:42 pm
          by oats

          Reply

          When has it ever been a good idea to let a productive young big man walk for nothing? l mean, even if Monroe proves to not be a long term fit, it still makes more sense to bring him back this summer to keep him as a trade asset than to let him go. I actually think the odds are decent that he gets moved in a sign and trade this summer.
           
          Melo isn’t signing in Detroit. I’m not certain I really needed to respond to that seriously, but I figured I’d say it anyways.

          • Jan 6, 20147:55 pm
            by jg22

            The problem is if you have to give him a max contract to keep him, then he’s no longer such a valuble trade asset. 
             
            A young big man avg 15/9 on a rookie deal? Very valuable asset, regardless of his defense.
             
            A young big man avg 15/9 on a max deal who plays no defense? Suddenly he’s more of hinderence  than an asset, as he becomes a lot more difficult to trade.
             
            If you believe Melo isn’t signing in Detroit, you’re entitled to your opinion, but that doesn’t mean you know what he is planning to do this summer. Just for fun though, if you are certain he’s not signing here, you must know where he IS signing, so I’d be curious to know…

          • Jan 6, 20148:22 pm
            by oats

            It’s a young player that will need a max contract next year. Sorry, that’s not significantly different. Anyone trading for him will be planning to give him that deal, so him actually being on it isn’t a big deal. Honestly, teams have more flexibility in the off season, so more teams could figure out how to bring him in. I actually think having more suitors would cause his value to raise, so I think his value as a sign and trade piece might actually be higher than his current value. As of next season it will drop a little bit, but not much.
             
            As for Melo, there is a flaw in that logic. Knowing where he won’t sign does not require knowing where he will sign. I will concede that I don’t know that there is absolutely no chance he signs in Detroit, but I do think the odds of it happening are too slim to be worth taking seriously. He wants to win now and he wants to play in a big market. He’s expressed an interest in both of those things many times. Detroit offers neither of those opportunities. I wouldn’t be too surprised if he would consider a team with no state taxes, but that also doesn’t apply to Detroit. So I can eliminate the Pistons without giving an actual location. I’d say the most likely destination for him would be to not opt out this summer and stay with the Knicks for another year. The next most likely destination is the Lakers since they are a big market, they have Kobe to play with, they have a lot of cap space, and they are the Lakers. Third most likely is he forces the Knicks to sign and trade him to the Clippers. After that I think I’d take Dallas, although I might be underrating the odds that Dolan gets pissed off and refuses to cooperate with a sign and trade. The next most likely scenario in my mind is that he opts out and then signs a new deal with the Knicks. All of these scenarios make a lot more sense to me than going to Detroit.

        • Jan 5, 201411:40 pm
          by Tim Thielke

          Reply

          The problem is we still have no idea what this cast could do with decent coaching.

          • Jan 6, 20143:53 am
            by Otis

            But where’s this coaching coming from?? Like him or not, Lawrence Frank was an organized and thoughtful coach and he platooned Drummond and Monroe. And neither of them ever looked better individually than when they were in a platoon, and you can’t pay him that much to platoon him. We’ve certainly seen enough of the pairing to be “not thrilled.” Sometimes shit just works out this way and you have to move on. I don’t see how you throw more money at this problem, just hope some brilliant coach is on his way and ride it out. Sometimes you gotta count your losses, be appreciative that you even HAVE this asset in the first place, and move on. This is one of those times.

          • Jan 6, 20143:54 am
            by Otis

            *cut your losses, that is.
             
            And I don’t see Gores, who obviously wanted to save money by dumping a pick instead of amnestying Gordon, paying another coach to go away.

          • Jan 6, 20147:10 am
            by oats

            Organized and thoughtful sound like a nice way of saying rigid an unimaginative. Honestly, both takes are accurate. I actually like Frank more than most Pistons fans seem to since I think he’s just a run of the mill bad coach and not a truly terrible one, but I’d say he’s still a bad coach.

          • Jan 6, 20149:36 am
            by Tim Thielke

            Where’s this coaching come form? There were so many good coaches on the market this summer. And Dumars took one whose upside was mediocrity.

          • Jan 6, 20142:14 pm
            by Otis

            My point is that the coaching never comes. You can wish all day and it’s not coming. Not as long as Dumars is in charge, and probably not as long as Scrooge McGores is already paying two inept coaches at the same time.

          • Jan 6, 20142:54 pm
            by Tim Thielke

            So why all the outrage about roster construction but the extreme fatalism about the coaching situation.

            We can rant and rave all we want but have no power to affect change on either count. So if we rant about one, might as well also rant about the other.

          • Jan 6, 20147:58 pm
            by jg22

            I agree with Tim on this. We can change lineups and make major trades, but if the coaching is the problem, the end result will be the same.
             
             

          • Jan 7, 20143:48 pm
            by Otis

            @Tim: The difference is simply that (and I hate to bring this term up because of all the hubbub in the recent past surrounding the term) Mo Cheeks is a sunk cost. They’re still paying Coach Frank this season, and I think they gave Cheeks a three year deal with a club option on the fourth (LOL). So I just don’t see Tom Gores paying three coaches at the same time. I also don’t see him dumping Cheeks more than one year sooner. Also, the coaching nightmare just snowballs, because this team chews up and spits out coaches like nobody’s business. So maybe once you have a solvent roster and significant enough cultural change, such as the ejection of Joe Dumars, then maybe you’ll have a chance of attracting a worthwhile candidate. I would be very surprised to learn that any quality coach was ever interested in this job. On the other hand, the roster is malleable. Greg Monroe and Rodney Stuckey can be traded. The only use anyone would have for Maurice Cheeks is perhaps to feed him to livestock.
             
            @jg22: Do you realize how silly and circuitous your argument is? As long as you don’t have pieces that ANY coach could ever turn into a solvent rotation, you’re sunk. Doesn’t matter who’s coaching. The difference is that if you have a push-button roster, with a clear hierarchy at each position, it will be difficult for a coach to mess it up. Flip Saunders was not a good coach, but there wasn’t much he could do to screw up the rotation. Chauncey, Rip, Tay, Sheed and Ben were entrenched and could play most of the game, and the backups were pretty well established too. That damn team coached itself. Talent is king in this league. Good coaching would help, but you’re going to need to put together a team that a qualified candidate might actually WANT to coach. Not two centers and a power forward and nobody who can hit a jump shot.

  • Jan 5, 20146:10 pm
    by smitty

    Reply

    Joe needs to call Boston and get Rondo.

    • Jan 5, 20146:16 pm
      by Otis

      Reply

      Ugh. There are plenty of trades that would help this team, but let’s not pretend Rondo coming off a serious injury and missing significant time is the be-all end-all. Almost any trade will do at this point.

    • Jan 5, 20147:12 pm
      by PistonFanSinceDay1

      Reply

      Why in world would we do that? Jennings has been a good piece for this team. Our team just has to gain more chemistry.  Remember, Rome wasn’t built in a day.

      • Jan 5, 201411:54 pm
        by Smitty

        Reply

        Jennings is so good that we are 6 games under .500 in a terrible conference. Rondo is a winner. Rondo is a competitor. Also if it doesn’t work out he’s only under a very reasonable and tradeable contract for 2 more years. So if you could get let’s say Rondo and another piece for Monroe and some throw ins, why wouldn’t you see? Rondo is one of the best PG’s in the game. 
         

        • Jan 5, 201411:56 pm
          by Smitty

          Reply

          Probably a trade that works would be Rondo for Moose and Jennings.

        • Jan 6, 201412:33 am
          by Jodi aka "The Guru"

          Reply

          Rondo is indeed a winner, but Rondo doesn’t have a jumper…Jennings has a jumper and he can give us assists…Our team will get better, but you guys need to be patient…Jennings, Monroe, Drummond, and KCP are all 23yrs old and younger…Jennings is the only one out of those 4 who’s been to the playoffs…Be patient!..

          • Jan 6, 20141:13 am
            by smitty

            I know,but it’s hard. I really don’t want us to lose that lottery pick. Do you think we need better coaching? Clearly it seems this team is going backwards.

          • Jan 6, 20141:16 am
            by Jodi aka "The Guru"

            Maybe so…Hollins is still looking for job…

          • Jan 6, 20141:27 am
            by smitty

            After we hired cheeks, he turned down our offer to be an assistant.

        • Jan 6, 20149:37 am
          by Tim Thielke

          Reply

          Like every other winner ever, Rondo is a winner because he played with good players. If you think some players are just hardwired to win and others to lose, you should hang out with Kathy and root for Siva to become the Pistons’ starter.

          • Jan 6, 201411:42 am
            by Smitty

            Maybe I will. Maybe when Siva comes back he can run point and put Jennings at the 2, and maybe then we can start really competing for that 8th seed.

  • Jan 5, 20146:44 pm
    by Jodi aka "The Guru"

    Reply

    Come on Pistons!..I don’t know how we ended up losing this dang game…Everyone played well tonight except Jennings jumper wasn’t dropping…I loved the passion that Jennings shows though…I wish Monroe would get mad like Jennings sometimes…And Smith didn’t deserve a F…
     
    Good game by Prince…

    • Jan 5, 20147:07 pm
      by PistonFanSinceDay1

      Reply

      Man, Monroe is too damn soft to have a swagger like Jennings. We lost this game because our team needs to improve its defensive effort during the 2nd half of ball games. We also need to continue to feed the paint instead of turning into a perimeter offensive team.

    • Jan 5, 20148:30 pm
      by Vic

      Reply

      You gotta be kidding me. Did i just read this?
      Swag? Soft? Monroe looks like the 2nd best player on the floor for the Pistons. He actually scored when he shot the ball…

      • Jan 5, 20148:57 pm
        by PistonFanSinceDay1

        Reply

        Vic I agree, Monroe is the 2nd best player on the floor and probably the most consistent Piston. You gotta admit that he plays soft on the defensive end though. And you didn’t know Brandon Jennings has swag? Lol

  • Jan 5, 20146:44 pm
    by DetroitP

    Reply

    On my phone.  Otis looks half sleeping hahahhaha so true.  Agree to disagree brother on his worth, still think he’s a really good ball player and we deserve a lot for him.  My difference opinion with you is that you blame too much on him.   If we had a decent sf and moved everyone else to their natural position we would look like a different team.  Until there’s a trade were screwed.  Idk what to say at this point anyone who thinks they do is just as clueless)

    • Jan 5, 20146:59 pm
      by Otis

      Reply

      IF shcmiff. We don’t have a decent SF, and we don’t have any way to add one without trading sleepy away. And even then, old droopy eyes isn’t even a damn PF, he’s a center. Maybe one day he’ll develop a jumpshot and the foot speed to defend power forwards, but I’m all out of patience waiting for it to happen.
       
      And again, for like the eightieth time, my drive to trade Monroe has as much to do with his value (to another team who would GUARANTEED play him at center, not power forward like an asshole) as with my dissatisfaction with him. Smith already got paid. Best we can do with him is try to put him in a position to succeed (at PF, with a quality SF taking a portion of his shots and ballhandling duties). Greg Monroe is not the answer.
       
      And you and me are 100% in LOCK STEP on the trade issue. If this team doesn’t make a deadline deal, most of you don’t even have any idea how bad things are going to get. Maybe soon I’ll write an essay outlining it.

      • Jan 5, 20147:43 pm
        by Dan Feldman

        Reply

        “Maybe soon I’ll write an essay outlining it.”

        The competition is over. You are the funniest commenter here. Nobody else can challenge you.

        • Jan 6, 201412:29 am
          by gmehl

          Reply

          Without a doubt he is. I think Otis and I agreed on the label of ‘over passionate’ to describe himself. Still I’d rather have people like that than the ones that keep thinking everything will be fine next season when it clearly won’t be. I think they call that sucking on the Pistons PR teat.

          • Jan 6, 20141:16 am
            by smitty

            I love reading Otis’s comments. Whether I agree or disagree.

        • Jan 6, 20143:55 am
          by Otis

          Reply

          I’m glad that wasn’t lost on you, Dan.

      • Jan 5, 20148:04 pm
        by oats

        Reply

        You do this Monroe is a center thing all the time. Monroe lacks the traditional skills of a center as well and isn’t any better defending that position. It is slightly more common to have centers that can’t shoot than power forwards that can’t shoot, but the league is littered with both. He helps make up for that deficiency by being a better passer than is typical of either position. In short, he isn’t really any more of a center than he is a power forward. I will agree that he is much more likely to play center on his next team, but that has nothing to do with his skill set and everything to do with the rarity of quality players that can play the center position at all. That doesn’t make him a center though.
         
        If I was to pick the ideal front court partner for Monroe, I think I’d take Ibaka. I guess he’s the center next to Ibaka, but that’s somewhat debatable. Ibaka will guard whoever the team has a harder time guarding. My next choice would be Marc Gasol. I guess he’s the power forward next to Gasol, but his role would be identical to what he’s doing next to Ibaka. How exactly is the center in either scenario? He’s a big man, and I really don’t understand this need to label him as a center.

        • Jan 6, 20143:58 am
          by Otis

          Reply

          It’s simple. Never in a million years would I pay him anything close to max money to play power forward next to another non-floor-spacer like Andre Drummond. Period. They were so much better and more dazzling when they were sharing minutes at center under Lawrence Frank, whether you’d like to believe it or not. Sometimes you just happen to have two young centers who make each other worse and you need to move one of them before it’s too late.

          • Jan 6, 20146:07 am
            by oats

            That logic would be great if it was actually true. Unfortunately it isn’t. They were really good in those 10 games that they started together last year. Monroe put up 17.8 points, 9.9 rebounds, and 3.9 assists a game in that stretch. Drummond put up 11.1 points and 8.2 rebounds in a little under 26 minutes a game. That means Monroe was playing better than his season average while Drummond was right around his per minute numbers that year. They clearly weren’t taking anything away from each other in that stretch. On top of that, Monroe and Drummond lineups that don’t feature Smith have been really good this year. That’s a lot of evidence that Monroe and Drummond work pretty well as a pairing if they are giving a more typical SF than Smith, and it’s with a pair of unimaginative coaches.
             
            I still think the proper way to use them would be in a more motion based offense, with lots of player movement and ball movement. For that matter, I think a better coach could make the 3 big lineup look a bit less awful with a motion based offense. Combine that with staggering them since any combination of 2 of the 3 bigs makes for a good unit, and I’m not convinced this roster needs to be broken up that badly. Clearly this roster and this coach is a bad combination, but this roster with a good coach could actually work.

          • Jan 6, 20142:20 pm
            by Otis

            I’d take any 10 game stretch at the end of a season with 10 grains of salt, given how rampant the tank machines are running that time of year. And there are no “clear” conclusions to draw from that small and tainted a sample size. I was talking specifically about how good each guy looked, less about the numbers. I remember them each standing out as impressive players when paired with, say, Charlie V and made individual focal points of the offense.
             
            But if you think this team can work with the right coaching or whatever, then we just don’t agree and never will. This team has zero chance of being anything special ever.

          • Jan 6, 20143:07 pm
            by oats

            So, your argument is that I should just ignore the only significant data point about how they played as a pair last year as well as any stats because they don’t mesh with what your opinion of how they played. That’s asinine. I know 10 games at the end of the year is hardly conclusive, which is why I pointed out that the lineups this year with the 2 of them and no Smith have also been fantastic. That’s still not exactly conclusive, but it’s pretty much all the evidence we have to judge them on as a pairing without them having to deal with the Josh Smith at SF anchor tied to them.
             
            It is far more logical to judge them based on that evidence then whatever BS you are using for your basis. They looked more dazzling? I’ve no clue what the hell that even means. This is why stats exist. They serve to quantify what the heck is actually happening and not have our opinion tainted by nonsense like how dazzling they look. Stats are grounded in facts, how dazzling they appear is grounded in personal bias. Do you realize how faulty human memory is? Ever hear of confirmation bias? I know for a fact that you decided they didn’t work as a pair before they really got a chance to try playing together because you had already declared that pairing a no go before it actually happened last year. Then you tell me that your argument is based on your predetermined opinion of how they looked together instead of on what the numbers have to tell us. You weren’t really expecting me to agree with that terrible excuse for an argument, were you?
             
            Anyways, I didn’t say the team will work with good coaching. I said it might. They sure as hell haven’t had a chance to see what they could do with a competent coach even. For the most part I think coaching is overrated. The exception is when the pieces are awkward fits. In that situation a good coach can make a huge difference, and that’s exactly the kind of situation Detroit is in. I’m not convinced a good coach would fix it, I’m just also not convinced that a good coach couldn’t fix it.

  • Jan 5, 20146:46 pm
    by DetroitP

    Reply

    And for the love were that shitty were bringing up Brandon knight? Cmon

  • Jan 5, 20147:27 pm
    by Ozzie-Moto

    Reply

    My limit on patience is 2-3 years, and that was 3 years ago.  For all those who kept saying just give Joe another chance this is what you get. One unbalanced team after another after another.  Unless you were going to trade Monroe Smith was a stupid signing. or at least make one of them come off the bench. What we needed most other than a point guard (in hind sight Trey Burke maybe ) Was a Small forward that could stretch the floor and of course it is the one thing Joe didn’t bother with…..  

    • Jan 5, 20147:54 pm
      by Parsons

      Reply

      This is exactly how I feel. I couldn’t have put it better.

  • Jan 5, 20148:34 pm
    by Vic

    Reply

    I will say this: joe Dumars is done if he doesn’t get a new coach or give his coach a new game plan or undo his mistake and trade Josh Smith.
    He messed up again with the coach, the new pg, and the new SF.

    • Jan 5, 20149:01 pm
      by PistonFanSinceDay1

      Reply

      Chill out, give this group some time to gel. We haven’t even made it to the half of the season yet.

      • Jan 5, 201411:44 pm
        by Ozzie-Moto

        Reply

        Some things DONT need more time to understand …  1/2 year here half year there and all of a sudden you talking real time, Like the last 6 years !  This is another JD special … he goes with his gut and has given Detroit teams that not only don’t win there so unbalanced that they make them very hard to watch … 

        • Jan 5, 201411:59 pm
          by Smitty

          Reply

          Agreed. It actually looks like we are getting worse, or other teams are getting better and we are standing pat.
           

      • Jan 6, 20144:01 am
        by Otis

        Reply

        PistonFanSinceDayOne, you and your kind make me sick. You are the worst disease on this franchise, because you endorse everything that is destroying it and you’re satisfied with being awful and going nowhere just because PISTONS! It is insane how ironic it is that you live to kill the thing you love. It’s almost poetic, in a bad way.

        • Jan 6, 20142:43 pm
          by PistonFanSinceDay1

          Reply

          Today must be my lucky day. The tough-online Otis has finally responded to me. I was starting to think you were lame after I challenged you to come up with trade scenarios involving Monroe. I’m still waiting for that response big guy.
           
          Please tell me what I’m endorsing that isn’t right? If you’ve played basketball Mr. Otis you would know that it takes time to gain chemistry. This is Monroe and Drummond’s first full season playing next to each other. This is Smith’s first time playing the 3 full-time. This is KCP’s rookie season. This is Jennings first time playing with a team where he has plenty of options on the offensive end. Give it some time gel and let’s talk about re-tooling after the season. I’m not against making minor changes, like trading for a 2-guard. But giving up on Jennings, Smith, Monroe, and Drummond this early clearly shows your ignorance when it comes to basketball. You’re what we call a fair weather fan. 

          • Jan 7, 20143:50 pm
            by Otis

            (personal attack removed)

  • Jan 5, 20148:39 pm
    by jamesjones_det

    Reply

    ““Mr. Big Turnover” is washed up. The Pistons need Stuckey back.”
     
    Harsh but sadly not unwarranted :/
     
    How said is it that this team can’t win without Stuckey?  To me it just shows how bad this team is and how unlikely it is we will do anything above a first round sweep if we even get that lucky.

    • Jan 6, 20144:03 am
      by Otis

      Reply

      I agree. Now just please don’t have this exact same sense of hesitant urgency in two months, or next season. You need to take this urgency and roll with it. The end is nigh. This team is headed for a very, very bad place. You need to accept this revelation and realize that it really is the end of days. We can’t win and we’re blaming it on not having Rodney Stuckey. Rodney f#cking Stuckey. The guy everyone has wanted gone since I don’t know when. This is the apocalypse.

      • Jan 6, 20149:41 am
        by Tim Thielke

        Reply

        Chill out. Nobody is blaming the losses on Stuckey being out. I was just saying that when Bynum has a bad Bynum game, the team has no decent backup PG without Stuckey. Backup PG is far down the list of things Detroit needs to fix. But when talking specifically about Billups, it was relevant because Billups should never have been in the game.

        • Jan 6, 20142:22 pm
          by Otis

          Reply

          LOL you know better than to tell me to chill out. HA!

  • Jan 5, 20148:45 pm
    by James

    Reply

    Brandon Jennings would look better with a real coach, a better wing scorer and active front court who sets good picks. However, the only two things that could remotely fix Smith is going back to power forward or LARRY BROWN. Monroe is nothing more than Al Horford in different clothes, marginal at best. Gores has to be IRATE with Dumars, who I’m assuming will be let go around mid to late March after refusing to pull the trigger on a trade to help this team’s future in February. 

  • Jan 5, 20148:46 pm
    by ITS OFFICIAL I HATE CHEEKS

    Reply

    Im so confused that we havent figured out…that simple fix is bring Monroe off the bench…and startinG Singler…. its the little things, instead of trying to Force Dre, Monroe and Smith to play together…
    Monroe is still gonna get mintes between playing PF and Center…its just stupid at this point and hard to stomach

    • Jan 5, 201411:52 pm
      by Ozzie-Moto

      Reply

      JD stuck us in a real bind …. He didn’t get the issues of bring in smith if it didn’t work (everyone said that JS was not a small forward)  and negotiating with Monroe. He could loose him for nothing if not careful or be forced into over paying ….  Not good to demote (not that it has to be that) a player thats up for contract or that you might want to trade…..   I agree he could be sort of a Kevin McHall … who ate up 2nd teams with moved around the basket … but again trade off .. most 2nd units pick up the pace and he would slow them down …  no easy decisions but this was avoidable to some extent.  

  • Jan 5, 20148:50 pm
    by James

    Reply

    That above statement would probably materialize under a strong, respected coach, unlike Cheeks.

  • Jan 5, 20148:51 pm
    by James

    Reply

    And honestly, on a good team, that’s exactly where Monroe would be, on the bench to have an advantage against the other teams bench players.

  • Jan 5, 20148:51 pm
    by ITS OFFICIAL I HATE CHEEKS

    Reply

    At this stage…I’m confused that a professional coach is unable to make simple adjustments like being Monroe off the bench… and starting Singler…that automatically would change the dynamic of our team…and fix two problems…. one spacing and two a consistent scoring rotation…. fire cheeks

    • Jan 5, 20149:28 pm
      by Jodi aka "The Guru"

      Reply

      You’ve lost all credibility by saying that Singler should start…Please stop the buffoonery, Singler is a bum!..

      • Jan 5, 20149:45 pm
        by ITS OFFICIAL I HATE CHEEKS

        Reply

        Singler in like the last 10 games is shooting around 50% or better for 3′s….It spaces the floor…This would stop teams from simply packing the…..
        Singler has been out best shooter by far no matter what you think of him… and Monroe coming off the bench isnt a insult, he actually operates better when he is the lone big on the floor or the key go to big…and to add more …advanced stats says Drummond and Smith play better together than Drummond and Monroe
        at the end of the day assuming theres no trade it becomes our best option….

      • Jan 5, 201410:49 pm
        by oats

        Reply

        His per 36 minute numbers are 13 points and 5 rebounds, and he’s shooting 48% from the field and 36% on 3s. That gives him a true shooting percentage of .610, the highest on the team behind JJ’s .621 in absurdly limited minutes. Singler is very clearly not a bum.

        • Jan 5, 201411:01 pm
          by Jodi aka "The Guru"

          Reply

          @It’s Official: OK, Singler can shoot…But what can he do defensively?..Our team has enough players that can score in our starting line-up…Jennings, Smith, Monroe, and KCP are our scorers…Put Monroe on the bench for Singler then we’ll take away rebounds and defense(yes, Monroe is a better defender)…All Singler has is a decent 3 pointer, that’s it…We need a starting caliber 2-guard on our team, not foul-a-lot Singler in the starting line-up…
           
          @Oats: Lets talk basketball, I’m not really an advanced stat dude…Which starting line-up would do more damage on the boards and give us a better opportunity to win?..Remember Monroe gives us 14 points, 9 rebounds, a couple of assist per game, and a couple of trips to the foul line compared to Singler’s little 6 points per game.
          Jennings,KCP,Smith,Monroe,Drummond
          vs
          Jennings,KCP,Singler,Smith,Drummond

          • Jan 5, 201411:18 pm
            by oats

            The short version is that I think starting Singler would improve the odds of winning and may even improve rebounding throughout the entire game, or at worst remains pretty much the same.
             
            It isn’t just about starting lineups since they don’t play all 48 minutes anyways. Lineups with Smith, Monroe, and Drummond playing together have been terrible defensively. They give up way more points than any lineup that features Singler as the SF next to 2 of the big men. In fact, the 3 big lineups give up more points than they score, but all lineups featuring 2 of the big men score more than they give up. Moving one of them to the bench in favor of Singler would minimize the 3 big lineup that isn’t working and give the team more time with 2 of the 3 bigs on the court, which has worked great. I honestly don’t care which of the 3 bigs hit the bench, all of the evidence that we have says that sending one of them to the bench in favor of Singler would be beneficial.
             
            Would that starting lineup be worse on the boards? Maybe. Would the team be worse on the boards? Not if the minutes remain the same. Just because he is starting doesn’t mean he needs to play more. What’s more, both Monroe and Smith are having some of their worst rebounding seasons of their career. When too many really strong rebounders on the court there are diminish returns because there just aren’t enough missed shots to go around. Some of the ones that Smith or Monroe would normally be getting are currently going to a teammate. So Singler might not get as many boards as Monroe, but Smith might get a few more to clean that up. Monroe going to the bench would likely mean the team would likely have 2 good rebounders on the court at all times, and he has a realistic chance of getting boards that the bench players are currently not bringing in at all. I doubt the team gets worse on the boards, and there is a very real chance that they actually improve.

          • Jan 5, 201411:44 pm
            by Tim Thielke

            Singler doesn’t normally have foul trouble.

          • Jan 6, 201412:37 am
            by oats

            @ Jodi. I forgot to say this. Inserting Singler in the starting lineup might work better on paper than in actuality. Without being in the locker room I can’t claim to know how well Monroe would handle a benching after being such a workmanlike and productive starter over the years, especially since he’s playing for a pay raise. I’m even more nervous about Smith’s big money ego going to the bench. I think Drummond would be the best able to handle that kind of move based on what I know of his personality and his having been on the bench recently, but I would be afraid of stunting his development. I would float the idea with Smith and Monroe to see if either is willing to volunteer to hit the bench, but if they don’t then I would stick with starters and just sub in Singler really early. I’m talking like around the 4 minute mark early. The real goal is breaking up the 3 big lineup anyways, so that would suffice.

          • Jan 6, 20141:04 am
            by Jodi aka "The Guru"

            @Oats: For starters, if we send Monroe to the bench he’s going to leave in free agency…You guys might not care, but I think that will be the biggest mistake Dumars has made in his GM career…
             
            I personally think that our big 3 is so bad defensively because Smith hasn’t mentally accepted being a 3 on the defensive end…Watch Smith on a couple of defensive plays, the dude leaves opposing 3′s alone on the perimeter…I think we should at least give Smith more time to adjust to playing the 3 full-time before we judge him…I thought he did a good job while guarding Lebron during the first time we played the Heat…I can’t wait to see how he plays against Melo on Tuesday…The reason Monroe and Smith’s rebounds are down is because Drummond is an athletic freak of nature and he’s a freaking beast!..Another reason Monroe and Smith’s rebounds are down is because the different offensive plays we’re running…If there’s a play called for Smith watch how Monroe is usually away from the basket and Drummond is closer to the basket…And the same goes for Monroe if plays are called for him…For Monroe to still average 14 points and 9 rebounds is pretty good considering the fact that he’s playing next to an athletic Center and an athletic hybrid 3/4 in Josh Smith…
             
            I’m not sure what games you guys are looking at, but Singler clearly gets beat to the basket a lot…Then when Singler fouls our opponents he doesn’t even foul them hard enough to stop them from scoring…I like Singler as our role player off the bench…He isn’t starting material in the NBA…
             
            I hear what you’re saying about Monroe still getting his minutes, but at the end of the day there’s a difference from a big coming off the bench and a guard coming off the bench…If your intent is to start the game with Sinlger at the 3 while Monroe sits on the bench, then it’s more than likely that Monroe will be on the bench at the end of the game…That right there would effect Monroe’s minutes and morale with our team…Even if Monroe played well enough to stay in the game and you decide to put Smith or Drummond on the bench, it would effect one of Smith’s or Drummond’s morale…One of those three would question there role on the team if there not in the game during those final minutes…Singler isn’t worth that much to have one of our big three questioning there roles…

          • Jan 6, 20141:13 am
            by Jodi aka "The Guru"

            @Oats: I just read your comment you posted at 12:37am(good post)…I was basically saying the same thing in my last post…I don’t think Smith’s or Monroe’s ego would allow them to come off the bench…I don’t think we can afford to put Drummond on the bench either…Either we need to trade Smith or be patient until he figures out how to be a full-time 3…Singler in the starting line-up wouldn’t work at all…Maybe we could accept Singler playing ahead of KCP for a while, but not for a whole season…

          • Jan 6, 20146:49 am
            by oats

            @ Jodi. Keep in mind that Monroe can’t leave if the team doesn’t want him to. He’s a restricted free agent, so if the team wants to keep him they can match any offer for him and he will still be a Piston. I don’t think I’d want to upset him anyways, but that is worth noting.
             
            As for Singler’s defense, it is pretty bad. Yet he gambles way less than Smith, and he does a better job of sticking with his man off the ball than the alternatives at SF. He also has a much better understanding of defensive rotations than Smith, which is important since the team seems to switch fairly aggressively. He is clearly outmatched physically pretty often, which does look bad, but he’s a much smarter defender than Smith and still represents a defensive upgrade for the Pistons when it comes to team defense. I will concede that I think for the LeBron, Melo, George, and Durant group that I’d still go with Smith. Against those guys the Pistons just need the better athlete. Those guys are the primary offensive option for their teams and they have the ball a lot. Smith is a better man on defender than Singler, so he should get the nod against those ball dominant players. Against pretty much the rest of the league it is Singler that has been the better defender. 
             
            Singler puts up basically identical numbers to Kyle Korver on a per minute basis, and he isn’t any worse defensively than Korver. Maybe a young Korver had an advantage, but that’s been gone for a few years now. Admittedly he’s not quite the shooter Korver is, but Korver isn’t as useful as an off the ball cutter. That’s a pretty solid NBA starter, even it’s hard to get excited for a relatively low end starter.
             
            I wouldn’t want to start Singler over KCP though. He’s at an even bigger disadvantage physically at the 2, and KCP is much quicker than even Smith. KCP is the team’s best perimeter defender, and pulling him without also addressing the fact that Smith and Monroe are playing bad defense would be awful. No, I’d rather just keep the same starting line up. I think the most practical solution is to just go to the bench much earlier and work harder to stagger the 3 big men. I want to maximize the time the team has 2 of the 3 big men on the court, minimize the time all 3 are together, and all but eliminate the time they have none of them on the court.

        • Jan 6, 20148:28 am
          by I HATE FRANK

          Reply

          ME and OATS on the same PAGE!
          Pistons must be ready to go on a 27 game win streak!
          @Jodi Oats said all that needed to be said… All i will add is bring Monroe off the bench would not diminish his stats, his rebounds would probably take a hit but his scoring would probably increase slightly…
          Monroe being the first player off the bench to Replace Drummond or Smith gives the Pistons no drop off in talent….theres just more upside to giving it a try

      • Jan 6, 20149:46 am
        by Tim Thielke

        Reply

        Jodi is especially idiotic when it comes to Singler. he just hates the man. Singler is nothing special, but he and KCP are handily the best wings on the team right now. And Singler is probably the slightly better of the two for the moment.

        Jodi, don’t worry about Monroe leaving in free agency. Besides the fact that it would be best to trade him (if a decent return can be had). he can’t leave as a FA, unless Detroit chooses to let him do so. He’s a RFA.

  • Jan 5, 20149:08 pm
    by Ozzie-Moto

    Reply

    Continued:   And then there is coaches …..   Joe felt he got burned with Rick Carlisle and Brown not so much as coaches but with there being to independent and not exactly comfortable for him and Davidson. Since then he has gone with the worst collection of hires i can imagine. The Saunders era was OK. looks good compared to the last few years ..In a clear after that that he wanted people he was super comfortable with and that wouldn’t challenge the status quo. Curry alone should have gotten him fired. Kuesters an assistant at best. Frank, just the kind of school teacher that younger player (DON’T)  relate to. Now Cheeks … He like an old sweater, very comfortable for Joe but your not going anywhere important in an old sweater … meanwhile most team are looking for younger energetic leaders……. What was the wrap coming in: nice guy LOUSY game coach.  Story on todays game there where players looking for guidance, plays in a time out and none comes!!!!!   Again I think Joe a nice guy. I partially blame the Detroit Media for coddling the situation for years, never educating the public about the real state of disfunction. I also call on JOE to resign.  When he was a player if he was hurt or the coach thought we had a better chance to win with him out I am sure he would take a seat….. JOE DUMARS it is time to take a seat for the good of the PISTON.  

  • Jan 5, 20149:21 pm
    by pablum

    Reply

    I’d like to submit an essay for Otis’ contest. It’s title is: “Inedible Hard Bread That People Must Eat When They Watch the Pistons.”
    The thesis is simple. When a team becomes so naturally disoriented that it’s play is indistinguishable from the lots of drunks there will reach a point where even being in proximity of said team will lead to a contact buzz of such colossal alcoholic proportion that fans will have no other choice but to choke down inedible loaves of hard bread to protect their throats and lungs from tissue damage and otherwise endure this sustained and somber spectacle of slosh…

    • Jan 6, 20144:06 am
      by Otis

      Reply

      I guess you win the contest. I did not see any other entries.

  • Jan 5, 20149:22 pm
    by Georgio

    Reply

    And who is Singler going to guard, he’s a foul waiting to happen. He’d be on the bench within 3 min after the game started. Monroe was our best player in the first half, if anyone should go to the bench it should be Smith but you’d still have the problem of Singler being unable to guard starting SFs. If Smith and Jennings had higher basketball IQs and knew how to play to their strengths maybe this lineup could work. You saw Smith tonite, he couldn’t make a shot in the post over Prince but you think he could all of a sudden post up PFs who are bigger and stronger than Prince, get real. Smith is an athlete, not a basketball player, he has no real post skills, no jump shot and he can’t dribble. If he stuck to rebounding, defending and being an energizer type of player he could be successful but he doesn’t. The big lineup can work but it may be doomed by Smith’s low basketball IQ. 

    • Jan 5, 20149:32 pm
      by Jodi aka "The Guru"

      Reply

      I don’t think Smith is low IQ basketball player, but great overall post…I’m glad people are starting to see how terrible Singler is as a player, especially on the defensive side of the ball…I wish you could come watch the game at my house and hear the amount of screams when Singler allows opponents to score on him…

    • Jan 5, 201410:57 pm
      by oats

      Reply

      @ Georgio. Singler is a bit foul prone. He picks them up at the same rate as Drummond. Drummond is able to average 32 minutes a game despite his foul problems, so Singler could do the same. Then again, who said that the team needs to give him those minutes.
       
      @ Jodi. Kyle Singler lineups give up fewer points than lineups with the 3 big men at the same. You can rail on his defense all you want, but the current alternative has been significantly worse as a defensive unit.

  • Jan 5, 20149:37 pm
    by James

    Reply

    Unfortunately, the main cog in most of the complaints AND LOSSES is the guy who put it all in place! Singler would be ok in 3-7 min spurts of energy and 3pt shots on most nights, that’s about it. Smith needs zen-like coaching constantly to get the best out of him. What does it really say about your basketball team when STUCKEY is seen as a cure for what ails us when he returns? 

    • Jan 5, 201411:46 pm
      by Tim Thielke

      Reply

      Stuckey isn’t a cure for most of what ails this team, just for the miserable situation at backup PG when Bynum’s having a bad night.

  • Jan 5, 20149:39 pm
    by James

    Reply

    Hmm Boston just traded Courtney Lee for Jared Bayless this evening. Even Boston is trying to make moves……Dumars!

  • Jan 5, 20149:39 pm
    by bernard

    Reply

    trade everyone except drummond

  • Jan 5, 20149:58 pm
    by James

    Reply

    Bleacher Report has posted an article claiming the Bulls are definitely trading Deng and plan to amnesty Boozer. The comments from Bulls fans are begging for a trade of Deng and Heinrich for Monroe and KCP. Sounds good, or?

    • Jan 5, 201410:50 pm
      by Jodi aka "The Guru"

      Reply

      No…

      • Jan 5, 201411:07 pm
        by smitty

        Reply

        Monroe, CV, sinlger for Deng and a pick.

        • Jan 6, 201412:42 am
          by gmehl

          Reply

          Smitty I’d take that as long as it was there 2014 pick.

        • Jan 6, 20141:14 am
          by Jodi aka "The Guru"

          Reply

          @Smitty: Don’t trade a big for small…

          • Jan 6, 20141:25 am
            by smitty

            I don’t really like the trade. Deng and 2014 1st rounder for Monror would be a decent trade. Our defense is terrible.

    • Jan 5, 201411:48 pm
      by Tim Thielke

      Reply

      Why trade Monroe for Deng? Deng is exactly the sort of guy the Pistons could get in free agency.

      • Jan 6, 201412:02 am
        by Smitty

        Reply

        Well that would be fine, but what do we do now Tim? We are in danger of missing the playoffs and losing a lottery pick to Charlotte. That would be the worst thing for this team.

        • Jan 6, 20149:09 am
          by Tim Thielke

          Reply

          I know they’re on the brink right now, but I fully expect the Pistons to make the playoffs. Also, with the current state of things in the East, they’d have to fall into a very small range to both miss the playoffs and surrender that pick.

          • Jan 6, 201411:47 am
            by Smitty

            Wouldn’t that be Detroit’s luck though haha.

          • Jan 6, 20142:24 pm
            by Otis

            Tim, if this range exists, you can be damn sure this team will do everything in its power to find it.

          • Jan 6, 20143:01 pm
            by Tim Thielke

            The range would require being the 9 or 10 seed in the East and having 2 or 3 West Conference teams picking ahead of Detroit. Certainly plausible, but unlikely.

          • Jan 7, 20143:53 pm
            by Otis

            Man, I’m tempted to make a bet on this… 2 or 3 western conference teams picking ahead of us. That’s the Jazz and maybe Sacto. Maaaybe the Lakers but I doubt it. Then in the East you’ve got the Knicks, Nets and Cleveland as legit candidates to pass us (we currently sit at 8th). Forget likely or unlikely, this might actually be fate!

    • Jan 6, 201412:33 am
      by Tom Y.

      Reply

      Of course they’re begging for it. Do you want to throw Drummond in too for good measure?

  • Jan 5, 20149:59 pm
    by James

    Reply

    I would prefer CV or Singlet instead of KCP tho.

  • Jan 6, 201412:21 am
    by James

    Reply

    Getting Deng in free agency to add to this current roster? NEGATIVE! Unless another new coach comes in and demands either Smith at 13mil per or your newly signed MMonroe at 10+ mil per yr comes off the bench. 

  • Jan 6, 201412:24 am
    by zflo

    Reply

    this is just coaching. look at what steve clifford did to the bobcats, from worst defense to top 5 defense.

  • Jan 6, 20141:28 am
    by Hook Shot

    Reply

    Starting Singler is a step in the right direction. Cheeks has been abysmal. Hollins would have been a much better choice, especially with his emphasis on defense. At the current rate of winning we are headed to the lottery. This team has been a terrible disappointment and this is on Dumars. There will be a bloodletting if this team fails to make the playoffs or shows no improvement over last year. 

    • Jan 6, 20141:47 am
      by smitty

      Reply

      Why not fire cheeks and hire Hollins tomorrow.

      • Jan 6, 20143:12 am
        by gmehl

        Reply

        Damn that’s 2 times today that I agree with you Smitty. Quick Mr Goers open your check book you cheap bastard

      • Jan 6, 201410:24 am
        by Vic

        Reply

        i can dig it

      • Jan 6, 20141:15 pm
        by Steve Smith

        Reply

        Lionel Hollins would be a HUGE upgrade over Cheeks.

  • Jan 6, 20142:51 am
    by sdasy

    Reply

    siva is very good in this time
    using him right now and give him a Confidence

  • Jan 6, 20147:27 am
    by Kaneda

    Reply

    We need to adjust our game in the 2nd half. Benching Smith or Monroe for Singler to start is not a good idea imo. We saw Singler start a bunch of games last year. He’s not a starter. He is doing well in his current role (but I would add some minutes to his PT). In addition, benching Monroe or Smith will cause all sorts of locker room drama.
     
    I think the solution is to give each of our 3 bigs around 16 minutes in the 2nd half while only playing 2 of them at a time. And if one of them is having a bad game or is in foul trouble you can sub in Jorts or JJ.
     
     
     
     

    • Jan 6, 20147:29 am
      by Kaneda

      Reply

      forgot to add… FIRE Cheeks NOW!!! Dumbest coaching hire we could have possibly made in the offseason.

      • Jan 6, 20149:48 am
        by Tim Thielke

        Reply

        2nd dumbest, Dumars could have hired Jodi Jezz.

        • Jan 6, 20146:12 pm
          by pablum

          Reply

          Word on several sites/forums is that Cheeks was a “Gores hire” — what gives with the typical gallows chorus of “Joe sucks”? Moreover, Joe, in early AUGUST, acknowledged the exact potential line-up problems of Smith/Monroe/Drummond that have been agonizingly reiterated here ad infinitum, even going so far as saying our starting five was essentially in name only, TBD, as the season progressed: http://www.grantland.com/blog/the-triangle/post/_/… (and from this, one could infer even Joe’s surprise at Mo’s meanderings…).

          The other all-recycled Joe Bashing ignores the obvious:
          1. CV and BG were the two top rated FA’s when he took them. & BG had just come off that Incredible Celtics playoff series and CV had a break-out year with the Bucks. Hell, for all the blather about CV, he’s worth every penny of his meager 5-7 mill little-big man contract? (5-7 mill for a 6’10″ bonafide 3pt shooter, who’ll will play like an all-star every two out of twelve games? Yep. Worth it.).
          2. AI had just come off a superb year with Denver, showing no signs of the cancer he would prove himself to be here and, yes, while Chauncey did indeed have a great year with Denver while AI imploded in Detroit, Billlups, love ‘em as I do, still basically sucked in his last 2-3 playoffs with us. SUCKED.
          3. Joe, by all accounts, had a brilliant off-season in transforming this roster (before we discovered how bad Josh Smith decided to play for us; how bad Cheeks is).
          4. You take the time to actually read interviews with Joe than it is simply impossible to say he sucks, or doesn’t know the game, or isn’t an excellent GM. It’s ludicrous. The man knows more about hoops than any fan here or anywhere. It’s easy to say otherwise, but it just shows you’re a fan — he’s the pro and he’s fucking proved it beyond a doubt as a HOF player and Title winning GM — yes he fuckin’ has, unless you want to show me anyone since 2003 who put the streak together that he did with the Pistons (exempting, of course, the Spurs, but not Heat, who don’t count because they are an “Insta-Team” of superstars.
          5. Lastly, my blathering here may be misconstrued as I don’t think we have a chance in hell of making the playoffs with this roster and have no clue as to why you would think otherwise. But I do know, firing Joe ‘aint the answer.
           
           

          • Jan 7, 201412:22 am
            by Tim Thielke

            So when Dumars signs guys and they wildly exceed expectations (Billups and Wallace), he deserves all the credit, but when they fall below expectations (Gordon and Villanueva), he deserves none of the blame?

            Which is it? Are you rating him based on the caliber of moves or the results? To be honest, with BG and CV, he comes out negatively either way. Yes, they were among the better FAs available, but hat’s because there was nothing but crap available. Seriously, go back and read the Media’s reactions to those signings. Everyone knew immediately that he had grossly overpaid, they just underestimated quite how badly he’d failed.

        • Jan 6, 20148:25 pm
          by Jodi aka "The Guru"

          Reply

          It’s not really dumb, I’ve already been hired…(hint hint)

  • Jan 6, 201410:03 am
    by @GPMasters

    Reply

    Why, oh why can we not just have Greg coming off the bench sharing minutes at PF and C with Smith and Drummond. Surely it’s that simple. They can all still get 30+ minutes a game, even more if Smith played a small number at SF.
    Am I shortsighted in believing that is a simple short term fix?

    • Jan 6, 201410:26 am
      by Vic

      Reply

      No you are long sighted… as a matter of fact a lot of people saw the solution to this problem and prescribed it before the preseason season started.
      Have Josh Smith come off the bench because he wastes more shots than Greg Monroe.

      • Jan 6, 20142:26 pm
        by Otis

        Reply

        I’m sorry, but you’re still doomed to fail. I truly believe rotating these three at the power positions is the best use of their combined talents, but it’s still a gross waste of talent. If your best players can’t thrive on the court together, your team has no chance of winning anything ever. You won’t find one case in the history of basketball where a contending team’s best three players were awful together.

        • Jan 6, 20143:14 pm
          by Tim Thielke

          Reply

          “You won’t find one case in the history of basketball where a contending team’s best three players were awful together.”

          Ehhh, you’ll find unique problems with most contending teams. Being able to put a better finishing lineup on the floor than your opponent is certainly an advantage. And you are at a disadvantage in doing so if you have more of your talent on the bench. But that’s not nearly as important as just having better average play.

          There was probably never a team that won it all in spite of being a first round underdog until Nowitzki’s Mavs. Someone had to be the first.

          • Jan 7, 20143:58 pm
            by Otis

            I fully disagree. No matter how much your average talent is, this league favors “the best player” and/or the ability to field “the best unit” more than any in the league. The Goin’ to Work Pistons could be trailing by double digits going into the fourth most nights and still be favorites based on their ability to field the better five-man unit. We’re still not able to field a very good overall rotation regardless, but even if Dre-Moose-Smith was one of the best three man rotations at the power positions, I still maintain that leaving one of your top three perpetually on the bench would require a team with an embarrassment of riches and depth that the league has never seen. Nobody has that luxury, least of all a middle market team like Deeetroit.

          • Jan 7, 20146:22 pm
            by Tim Thielke

            Do you have anything to back that claim up that fielding the best single lineup is the most important of factors? Because I think you’re talking out your ass.

            As to your other claim, you’re just wrong. No NBA team has ever been the favorite when going into the 4th quarter trailing by double digits (well, at least not consistently, maybe if the other team lost their 8 best players to injuries/fouling out). But let’s examine your assumption.

            We’ll use the best Pistons team that era pumped out, the 64-18 Pistons of 2005-06. You know what was amazing about that team? They only trailed by double digits going into the fourth in 6 games all year. But they were 0-6 in those games.

            It would take too long for me to run through each other season of those Pistons, but I’d be shocked if you could find me any year that they were close to .500 for games in which they had 10 or more points to make up in the 4th.

  • Jan 7, 20141:37 am
    by JYD for Life

    Reply

    First – the Joe bashing needs to stop. So much has been said over the years about “he shouldn’t have drafted Darko,” “he shouldn’t have signed or traded this guy, or should have traded for that guy.”   Any fan of any organization can say that at any point.

    Let’s look at the facts – He manufactured one of the best decades in the history of the organization.  One championship and close to a second in the 2005 NBA Finals, six consecutive Eastern Conference Finals and overall, he assembled teams with quality guys who connected well with the residents of the “Great state of Miiii-chigan.”

    Boston (1), Dallas (1), Houston (2), Detroit (2), Miami (3), San Antonio (4), Lakers (5) and Chicago (6) are the organizations that have won the Larry O’Brien since 1990.

    The vitriol and fair-weatheredness from the wildly passionate (or less than ardent, based on the attendance numbers) fan base is beyond unreasonable.
    Any team in the league would be elated to have a run of six conference finals, let alone two NBA Finals appearances within that stretch.  Within every organization, there are a ton of would-haves, should-haves and could-haves.  How many more titles would the Lakers have if the Chris Paul deal would have gone through?  How many less titles would Miami have had LeBron stayed in Cleveland?  

    Looking at the big picture – Joe doesn’t answer to the fan base.  He has an owner and a team of executives who have some input.

    Personnel decisions and basketball operations fall under Joe’s scope of job responsibilities; but if you think that the Executive Vice Presidents of Sponsorship Sales and Ticket Sales do not have the owner’s ear, then I have some beachfront property in Alaska that I’m looking to sell and we should talk…

    The level of success beyond the finals runs kept tickets moving and ad revenue rolling in.  Unfortunately, some decisions made were not just about basketball.

    Factor in the death of Mr. Davidson and an estate looking to sell the team and Joe’s ability to make moves was incredibly limited for a few years, which resulted in a few rushed decisions (which he should take the blame for).  CV and BG were terrible.  AI was worse, but he was doing something.  You can’t win every trade or every trophy.  
    Did anyone in 2007 or 2008 say that Afflalo should start over Rip or Amir should have started over Sheed?  Didn’t think so…perhaps Joe respected those guys enough to trade them to teams where they would get playing time. He trusted Hammond to “take care” of Amir and he did…the guy has thrived in Toronto.  
    With his hands tied, he did what every other team does, builds through the draft…which he has done a fine job with.  
    The Cheeks and Smith Signings are puzzling…but lets see what he does in the next four weeks.  
    Instead of complaining, offer up some solutions.  ..and stop swearing.  

  • Jan 7, 20142:07 am
    by JYD for Life

    Reply

    Lets look at what this team needs instead of saying how it doesn’t work…seriously, they’re a few moves away from being legit.  Once you’re in the playoffs (ideally as a 3 or 4 seed), you never know if LeBron will turn an ankle or Chris Paul separates a shoulder…
    They need a true SF, a backup veteran PG and defense off of the bench.  
    The bench was out scores 53-22 (large in part because it was a blowout) yesterday…Jennings accounts for 8 of the teams 20 assists per game.  
    What’s out there?
    Boston:
    Gerald Wallace and Kris Humphries for Villanueva Jonas and Stuckey?  Boston wants to unload Wallace’s contract (Which is terrible, but would be off the books by the time Drummond is up for an extension). We would solidify a bench without giving up any assets.  
    I love adding Jeff Green and Josh Smith to that deal, but it would be highly unlikely that would happen.  
    Dallas:
    Josh Smith for Marion and Dalembert- pure salary dump, but I doubt Dallas would do that and I realize Joe most likely wont trade Smith.  
    Denver:
    Andre Miller and Javale McGee (and a future 1st – they have additional picks this year and next, I believe) for Stuckey and Villanueva or Andre Miller, Javale McGee and Gallinari works for Smith/Stuckey/Villanueva – I would think that if we take McGee’s contract off of their hands, Gallo would be expendable.  The question is would they want Smith?  Also, Joe’s reluctance to move Smoove. 
    Orlando:
    Villanueva and Stuckey for Big (extremely large) Baby and Jameer Nelson – strictly a dump for Orl.  We would have one more year of each guy and a stimulation to the local economy…specifically fast food restaurants on opdyke.  The only foreseeable problem is minutes (and Glen’s weight problems) with both guys taking a reserve role.  
     
    It’s not rocket science…there is a simple formula that works and it’s called talent+depth+leadership=wins. 

  • Jan 7, 20143:59 pm
    by Otis

    Reply

    ^Props to everyone for ignoring this guy, assuming anyone read that drivel.

  • Jan 7, 20146:37 pm
    by JYD for Life

    Reply

    Right…because anyone that disagrees with you is wrong? 

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