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Miami trounces Detroit, Pistons (somehow, at 10-11) still hold fourth-best record in Eastern Conference

Miami Heat 110 FinalRecap | Box Score 95 Detroit Pistons
Greg Monroe, PF 29 MIN | 3-10 FG | 4-5 FT | 7 REB | 1 AST | 2 STL | 0 BLK | 2 TO | 10 PTS | -15Monroe played hard but was largely neutralized offensively by the Heat. He has to throw his weight around more against smaller guys. His strip as LeBron went hard to the rim was a thing of beauty though.
Josh Smith, SF 31 MIN | 6-14 FG | 0-0 FT | 4 REB | 2 AST | 0 STL | 0 BLK | 3 TO | 13 PTS | -16Smith wasn’t taking bad shots. He wasn’t hitting enough of his good ones, but this would represent progress if he somehow maintains it. His defense left a lot to be desired, but Smith isn’t a perimeter defender. That’s an adjustment Cheeks has to make. Drummond is good at corralling smaller guys, Smith isn’t. Switch who’s guarding whom.
Andre Drummond, C 36 MIN | 8-11 FG | 3-6 FT | 14 REB | 0 AST | 2 STL | 2 BLK | 1 TO | 19 PTS | -12I saw Drummond grabbing boards all over the place and playing fantastic help defense. I had no idea, until I looked at the box score, that he had 19 points. Drummond is a beast!
Brandon Jennings, PG 34 MIN | 6-14 FG | 6-7 FT | 4 REB | 6 AST | 2 STL | 0 BLK | 6 TO | 19 PTS | -13Jennings hit 43% of his shots, so that’s better than normal. The 1:1 AST:TO ratio hurts though. Like most of the team, he looked good early and terrible late.
Kentavious Caldwell-Pope, SG 18 MIN | 0-4 FG | 0-0 FT | 0 REB | 0 AST | 0 STL | 0 BLK | 0 TO | 0 PTS | -14Caldwell-Pope had a miserable game. He contributed nothing on offense and while his defense didn’t look awful (it didn’t look good either), he got burned by every wing he tried to cover.
Tony Mitchell, PF 4 MIN | 0-1 FG | 0-0 FT | 0 REB | 0 AST | 0 STL | 0 BLK | 0 TO | 0 PTS | +3Mitchell’s garbage time did not yield anything worth evaluating.
Josh Harrellson, PF 11 MIN | 0-3 FG | 0-0 FT | 4 REB | 0 AST | 0 STL | 0 BLK | 0 TO | 0 PTS | -3Harrellson’s battled, but he didn’t exhibit much talent tonight. Cheeks was getting better play out of Jerebko and Villanueva so he had no reason to leave Josh in.
Jonas Jerebko, PF 21 MIN | 5-9 FG | 0-0 FT | 3 REB | 1 AST | 1 STL | 0 BLK | 2 TO | 12 PTS | +1Jerebko played very well and his threes were a huge reason the Pistons stuck around in the first half.
Charlie Villanueva, PF 14 MIN | 4-8 FG | 0-0 FT | 2 REB | 2 AST | 1 STL | 0 BLK | 0 TO | 10 PTS | -6Villanueva made the most of his time on the floor offensively. But he may as well have been a pylon on defense. So we pretty much got “good Villanueva” in this game.
Luigi Datome, SF 8 MIN | 0-4 FG | 0-0 FT | 2 REB | 0 AST | 0 STL | 0 BLK | 0 TO | 0 PTS | +3Datome is a Piston for one reason: to hit shots. He didn’t do that.
Kyle Singler, SF 20 MIN | 3-4 FG | 3-4 FT | 2 REB | 1 AST | 1 STL | 0 BLK | 1 TO | 10 PTS | -1Singler is reasonably good at sticking with his man and rotating properly. But he’s also a bit slow, so when the other team moves the ball really well, he’s doomed. I don’t know how much better he was capable of guarding all of Miami’s shooters, but he wasn’t good enough in this one.On the other hand, Singler shot well.
Peyton Siva, PG 14 MIN | 1-4 FG | 0-0 FT | 2 REB | 3 AST | 0 STL | 0 BLK | 2 TO | 2 PTS | -2Siva looked like a competent end-of-the-bench player! It’s a miracle.
Maurice Cheeks
I don’t know if Cheeks did anything differently in this game than the one in Miami, but the Pistons looked their worst out of the gate and immediately after the halftime break. At one point, he was playing either Jerebko or Villanueva at SG. Sorry, Mo, you only get points for creativity if it works (or at least if I think it should have a shot at working).

Two Things We Saw

  1. The Pistons have been pretty up and down in the 3rd quarter this season. This game was a big down. Miami tore the game open by starting the quarter 15-4 and the Pistons never got close enough again to make it seem like they had a shot.
  2. Miami’s shooting was unstoppable. At one point, their bench had 31 point on 12 shots. In general, when the other team shoots 56% to your 42%, you’re probably not going to win that game.

165 Comments

  • Dec 8, 20139:23 pm
    by jacob

    Reply

    Hopefully Joe d is exploring trade options !

    • Dec 9, 20139:45 am
      by Brigs

      Reply

      Monroe, villanueva and jererpko for Carmelo. New York sucks so it starts over with a young big man, gets some cap relief and a solid bench player with a small contract while we not only get a superstar but also get to move smith back to pf.

      • Dec 9, 201312:00 pm
        by Jacob

        Reply

        Found this in ESPN insider by Pelton.
        Greg Monroe | F/C | Detroit Pistons
         

        Monroe
        Sunday’s loss to the Miami Heat snapped a four-game Detroit win streak, which included a victory at Miami last week. During the winning streak, the Pistons’ starting frontcourt of Monroe, Andre Drummond and Josh Smith was plus-37 together in 78 minutes, a big change from getting outscored by 4.6 points per 48 minutes through November according to NBA.com/stats. So there are signs the big lineup might be coming together, especially at the defensive end. If not, Monroe appears to be the most likely candidate to be dealt before he hits restricted free agency next summer.

      • Dec 9, 20132:36 pm
        by Keith

        Reply

        NY can’t trade Carmelo. Any trade they make will make the team worse, and they have no first round picks. Blowing things up only works for teams that still have their picks.

        • Dec 9, 20139:50 pm
          by jg22

          Reply

          How does getting Monroe make them worse than if Melo leaves them with nothing in the offseason?

          • Dec 9, 201310:55 pm
            by Tim Thielke

            Melo’s probably not leaving because the Knicks can offer him way more money than anyone else.

          • Dec 9, 201311:07 pm
            by Brigs

            Well let’s just say that Melos tired of 2nd round exits from the playoffs. And u try and tell with that trade we dont immediately jump up to elite contender status

          • Dec 9, 201311:52 pm
            by Max

            I live in NY, have friends who are sports writers and I’ve been hearing some rumblings that he will be traded if the team doesn’t turn things around soon.  And many fans here hate him and want him gone believing the team will never be really good till he leaves.  

          • Dec 10, 20138:54 am
            by MIKEYDE248

            I think anywhere Melo goes, his teams will never advance very far.  He has never been a team first player or a defense oriented player.  Everyone around here complains about Monroes defense, just think how much they will complain about Melo’s.

  • Dec 8, 20139:33 pm
    by sebastian

    Reply

    Let’s stop fooling ourselves, WE don’t have a good enough starting SF or PF.

    Neither Josh Smith or Moose have the offensive repertoires that allows them to be effective at each respective position.

    Likewise on the other side of the floor, Josh and Moose don’t have the tendencies or foot work to guard the respective positions.

    I am not sure who will be traded, but Joe will be trading sometime between Sunday, December 15 and Thursday, December 19.

    • Dec 8, 20139:39 pm
      by gmehl

      Reply

      Here is a puzzle for you to work out:

      Josh Smith is playing SF but is actually a PF
      Greg Monroe is playing PF but is actually a C

      BUT

      we have Andre Drummond who is our C for at least the next 10 years.

      _____________________________________________________________________
      What do you do?

      • Dec 8, 20139:48 pm
        by jacob

        Reply

        Trade Monroe for deng , kawhi or some other good SF.

        • Dec 8, 201310:32 pm
          by domnick

          Reply

          no way!
           
          if you want to trade monroe.. the only guy that i want to get is Klay Thompson and another shooter..barnes is another good option

          • Dec 9, 20132:54 pm
            by Otis

            Not that the decision is yours to make (and thank the Heavenly Father for that) but you need to be more flexible and creative than this. The alternative to trading Moose by February is to sign him to a BLOATED max contract and be stuck with this mismatched bunch for the foreseeable future. Or try for a sign-and-trade and get absolutely fleeced. We were lucky he fell into our laps, and we were even luckier that Drummond did. We should make the best of a bad situation and get what we can for him while his value is high and our flexibility is too. Working out trades for him after February will be very sticky.

      • Dec 8, 201310:38 pm
        by Tim Thielke

        Reply

        Get a creative coach?

        • Dec 8, 201310:46 pm
          by jacob

          Reply

          I heard frank might be available.

        • Dec 8, 201311:38 pm
          by jay

          Reply

          That is such a cop out answer.  It’s so clear this site is so against mo cheeks.  There is no coach in the league that can Monroe be a better power forward. We clearly have 2 players playing out of position n since we already committed to Smith n drummond is the future, Monroe is the odd man out. trade him for a solid sf,  the team will be better in the long run. 

          • Dec 9, 201312:01 am
            by Tim Thielke

            I didn’t like the Cheeks hire and don’t pretend otherwise. But do you have any sort of evidence whatsoever to support your claim that no coach would be able to use Monroe well at PF? Even if you’re right about that, I guarantee plenty of coaches could find ways to get Monroe playing more minutes at C.

          • Dec 9, 201312:19 pm
            by jay

            Hey Tim it seems to me that you are more content on Monroe numbers than the team… Yea you could find more mins for Monroe at c position but you will be sacrificing drummond’s mins to do so. I think we both can agree that would not be a smart thing to do.  Monroe needs to be trading for multiple reasons.  He’s playing out of position n he’s not worth a Max contract 

          • Dec 9, 20133:02 pm
            by Otis

            To the surprise of nobody, I agree with Jay here. There is no evidence that another coach couldn’t get more out of Moose than Cheeks does, but you can’t prove a negative. I think Cheeks is a total dud. I thought Frank was the best of a bad lot. I thought Kuester and Curry were absolutely wretched. So yes, coaching has been a serious problem here. But it’s not fair to guess that Cheeks is the problem here. Especially since we haven’t had a good coach in nearly a decade. It’s a rubbish excuse.
             
            Last night was CLASSIC Monroe. Predictable moves, plenty of close looks he couldn’t hit, getting frustrated and refusing to assert himself. This mother should have the size “advantage” almost EVERY SECOND he’s on the floor. A leader, winner, star would be fighting for post position and demanding the ball every single time some team puts a mouse like Shane Battier on him and MAKING THEM PAY. That is not Moose. Moose is not the answer. He rarely fights hard for position and demands that ball. Regardless of how ineffective he is, that’s step one. And he doesn’t do it. Ever. I’m sick to death of looking at his sleepy eyes. Get this guy off my team.

          • Dec 9, 20135:15 pm
            by Tim Thielke

            Classic Monroe actually hits more of his shots, tough though they may be, than he misses. You can’t credibly deny that.

          • Dec 9, 20135:20 pm
            by Otis

            That’s not what I was getting at. I’ve already stipulated to the fact that his overall shooting percentage is good in general but poor for the kinds of looks he gets, as close as he is to the basket. Classic Monroe is a passive lump who doesn’t assert himself even though he’s supposed to have some sort of wonderful size advantage and will never take this team anywhere and isn’t even close to being worth a max contract.

        • Dec 9, 20135:22 pm
          by Vic

          Reply

          Any coach could jump at the chance to play 3 quality bigs 32 minutes each and get them to focus and play as hard as possible to their strengths for 32 mins.
          2 positions, 3 players, 96 mins
          Its actually a great problem to have and easy to solve if you throw the politics out and just focus on winning 

          • Dec 9, 20135:26 pm
            by Vic

            Let Jerebko, Singler and Datome play SF

          • Dec 9, 20138:08 pm
            by Otis

            1) It’s not a great problem to have. If they were all on cap-friendly contracts, it’s possible a good GM (as in, not Dumars) could make it work. When you’re forced to invest most of your cap money in said trio, not so much.
             
            2) Rotations don’t quite work like this. It’s not quite as push-button as you’d like to think. Foul trouble, fatigue, individual matchups. It’s not some cookie cutter equation.
             
            3) Greg Monroe is still totally unproven at power forward and playing alongside Drummond. Any investment in him at that position is a complete leap of faith and a foolish one. He’s had like 19 months to work on his defensive footwork and elbow jumper and it hasn’t happened yet. It would be insanely irresponsible to commit to him spending any measure of time at that position before he’s proven adeptness there.
             
            4) Even though I would much MUCH rather divvy up their minutes so that Smith rarely/never plays SF and they’re rarely/never all on the floor together, you just can’t build a winner around three guys who can’t play together. If that’s your dream, it’s over before it starts. Close out EVERY game with $15 mil sitting on the bench? It’s a recipe for failure.
             
            If you’re leaning this way at all, surely you must advocate a trade. You can’t build a team around guys who aren’t compatible. You just can’t.

      • Dec 8, 201311:00 pm
        by jg22

        Reply

        I think the Pistons have the talent with Smith/Monroe to get a 3rd-4th seed this year, regardless of if they fit or not. At the end of the day talent usually wins out. They aren’t talented enough to beat the great teams consistently, but enough to probably get the 3rd-4th seed. Unless a great offer comes along, I’m not sure you want to mess with that after 4 straight lottery years. So trading them away for lesser talent who might fit better, may not be the best thing for this team right now.
         
        Ultimately though, if Monroe isn’t ever going to make us good enough to be elite, you have to get something for him now instead of resigning him.
         
        Tonight, if he was really worth a max deal, he would’ve gotten in that post, demanding the ball against Battier and dominated him. All Battier had to do to shut him down was front the post a few times to start the game, then Monroe didn’t seem to want the ball much anymore. When he did get it and tried off the dribble instead, he couldn’t finish anything. 
         
        So if we can’t rely on Monroe in the post against elite teams, especially ones who are weak inside like Miami, and then he’s not going to give us much in other areas, I don’t see the value in him longterm. But that said, he is good enough to get us in the playoffs this year, which is really the most important thing right now. So its a tough decision for Dumars. Keep him and make the playoffs, and risk losing him for nothing in the offseason, or trade him now and risk not making the playoffs because of it. Not sure what to do, but that’s why Joe gets the big bucks

        • Dec 9, 20133:10 pm
          by Otis

          Reply

          Would making the playoffs mean all that much to you personally, jg22? One token playoff appearance in a conference where ten games under .500 probably makes the playoffs? Where you know full well that your team is NOT good enough to make a serious push. What would that mean to you? It would mean nothing to me, personally. Nothing at all. It says nothing about the Pistons. It says everything about the weakness of the conference. There is a 0% chance we get through Miami or Indiana, a 0% chance we get through any of the top five or six teams in the West. We couldn’t even beat the Hawks in two tries.
           
          So you think it might be “worth it” to push hard for the playoffs and then face some absolutely dreadful July decisions. Lose Stuckey for nothing, probably. Either try to get something for Moose in a sign-and-trade or lock him up long term when we KNOW he’s not the answer here? When we KNOW this team doesn’t have very much potential. Madness. The choice should be easy. You can’t possibly think one meaningless playoff push is worth sacrificing so much. The only possible benefit would be to Joe, and he’s probably as good as fired anyways.

          • Dec 9, 20136:58 pm
            by Parsons

            Making the playoffs would mean a lot actually. We have a very young team and they need to see what its like. It’s true we’ll get bounced pretty quick but the playoff experience is important for a young team. Lets be real though Monroe should be traded. He isn’t going to lead this team, that’s not to say he isn’t good just not for us. It happens deal with it and move on. There are wing players out there like Hayword and Afflalo and they would make this team better. Monroe is just not a PF. He’s can’t guard them but he makes for an amazing C a position we have so Monroe becomes a bargaining chip. We have the assets to trade for talented wings Monroe alone should get Afflalo. I know this isn’t dollar for dollar but with all the money we save by not having to give Monroe the moon and half the stars we should be in good position to fill in the holes in the lineup in the offseason.

          • Dec 9, 20138:14 pm
            by Otis

            Did you read the part about how bleak of a nightmare July will be if this team stands pat? We’ll get no first round pick, because it’s owed to Charlotte for a bad trade Joe made. We’ll have no ability to add talent without letting Stuckey go for nothing. So you’ll come back with the exact same mediocre team that you just admitted would be bounced pretty quick. So it sounds like you’re setting yourself up for many years of “pretty quick” playoff bounces, because there is no way to improve this team without making some moves by the deadline.
             
            I don’t think Monroe fetches all that much if you wait until July to sign-and-trade him, or worse yet plan on trading him after he’s attached to that ludicrous max contract. All your flexibility comes in trading him between now and February. Best to trade Stuckey while you’re at it too, because he’s unrestricted and you’ll just lose him for nothing in July anyways. If you want this team to have flexibility and a bright future, you really need to trade both of them.
             
            In short, it sounds from your last reply that you basically agree strongly that the team needs a shakeup, which is how I feel too. Which means one playoff run with this squad won’t amount to very much.

          • Dec 9, 201310:08 pm
            by jg22

            First of all, my whole post was speaking from Joe’s standpoint and what I think Joe is actually going to do, not my opinion, and in the end all that matters is Joe’s opinion.
             
            But, I do kind of agree with it. Making the playoffs is better than the lottery. But I don’t think they can just make the playoffs, I think they can get a 3rd-4th seed, host and win a series, and even maybe take Miami or Indiana to 5 or 6 games in the 2nd round. That would be tremendous experience for Drummond.
             
            You can look at it as not meaning anything if the conference is weak, but the conference is going to be weak again next year too. So if they have an opportunity to re-establish themselves as a top seed in the conference, and will have the same opportunity to maintain it next year and beyond, you don’t pass that up after 4 straight lotto seasons. Its hard to get back near the top, but once you do its hard for other teams to take your place, so you take advantage when you have that chance, and figure out how to get beyond that later.
             
            I don’t see where they would be in such a bad place in the offseason either if they stand pat now. They would still be able to S&T Monroe in the summer. They would still be able to resign Stuckey and/or S&T him. Or they could let both go and have near max money to spend in FA on new players. Anyway you look at it, the Pistons are going to be in a good position this summer, so why not stay with what you got and get that 3rd seed this year?

          • Dec 9, 201310:52 pm
            by Otis

            My friend, “establishing” yourself as a top team in the East this season would not only be meaningless, it would be incredibly fleeting. It’s the quality of the team, not the fact that they’re somewhat better than the rest of the rubbish in the conference, that determines whether or not you can stay at the “top” (if you can call a .500 record the top of anything, which you can’t). If we stand pat, even assuming we’re a #3 seed, here’s where you’re at…
             
            1) You may or may not be able to sign and trade Monroe. There are several teams with cap space who might want to make him a max offer, so you could very well be forced to match that offer and be stuck with this rotten, mediocre squad for the foreseeable future. Or lose him for nothing. If we can even manage a sign-and-trade, we’re likely to take back an enormous contract, and chances are nobody is going to give us anything tremendous for Moose. There is no chance whatsoever that we get anywhere near the same value as if we traded him now. None. So forget that.
             
            2) You may or may not be able to sign and trade Stuckey. But, as opposed to Moose, there is a very real chance that another team makes him a sizable offer and he just takes it, leaving us with nothing at all. He is unrestricted, and we have no right to him come July. The worst legacy Stuckey could possibly leave here is that he finally realized his potential just in time to leave the team for nothing.
             
            3) We won’t have a #1 pick in next year’s draft, one of the richest drafts in recent memory. So pretty much every single team that we beat out for that meaningless playoff berth will come back with a significant young, cheap shot in the arm. There’s more than a few potential superstars who could easily catapult half of the East over us in the blink of an eye. Either way, we’ll be behind the curve if we can’t recoup some of the value we lost with that pick.
             
            If you let one or both of those turkeys go, I don’t see how you can possibly think the team is better off for it. You’re so jazzed about the potential of having money to spend, but you can have the same amount of money to spend if you trade them for cheap talent and/or picks. Then you’ll have assets AND money to spend. We’re giving Charlotte our draft pick, and either one of these guys could go a long way towards making up for that blunder. I remain entirely unconvinced that one fraudulent “feel good” playoff appearance is going to mean anything in the big picture. And if you think we could take Miami or Indiana to 6 games, you’re obviously drunk on Kool-Aid, and stealing one win is an absolute best case scenario that still wouldn’t be worth it. You’re going to come back with either the same mediocre team or run the very real risk that you take a step or two backwards.

          • Dec 10, 201312:01 am
            by Max

            Establishing yourself is also about perceptions.   Even if everything you think about this current squad is correct not everyone is going to see what you do and I’d say that whatever the Pistons decide to do, if they have a nice run in the playoffs than they will have an easier time landing a free agent or getting someone to come in a sign and trade through the buzz they will generate.   

      • Dec 8, 201311:17 pm
        by DoctorDaveT

        Reply

        There are 96 minutes available at C/PF – that’s three good players. What needs to happen is to play one of these three as the 6th man. Then we need to find a SF. These three guys are not the problem.

        • Dec 9, 20133:14 pm
          by Otis

          Reply

          You need to think things through, Doctor. Where is this mysterious SF going to materialize? Charlotte is getting our first rounder this year, and the cap holds for Moose and Stuckey will cripple 100% of our flexibility in July. So theoretically, if we stay the course, we could go sign a SF after letting Stuckey go for nothing. But if you think letting Stuckey walk is better for the team long-term than trading him NOW while we have the chance, then you’re simply mental. Plus, you’re not going to keep your top players happy by bringing them off the bench, and you can’t possibly pay these eight figure salaries to guys coming off the bench. How did you ever earn a doctorate? You need to think things through.

    • Dec 9, 20131:41 am
      by jamesjones_det

      Reply

      I’ve been hard on JS all year for his offense but his defense is normally pretty sound.  Is the a great 3 defender?  No, but he is not horrible guarding that position.
       
      Monroe is another story, is effort on defense most nights doesn’t exist.

  • Dec 8, 20139:38 pm
    by domnick

    Reply

    stuckey did not play this game… hopefully he’ll return when we play the wolves…

  • Dec 8, 20139:48 pm
    by Kathy Clater

    Reply

    Those of us who know and love Peyton Siva, do not consider it a “miracle” that in time, he would get his rhythm back.  He missed all of training camp and just needs consistent minutes.  However, Siva does have a strong faith and is not alone in his journey.  I have been praying for him.

    • Dec 9, 20131:17 am
      by MrHappyMushroom

      Reply

      Whether he believes in god or not isn’t particularly relevant.  Lots of lousy basketball players are devout and terrible.  (And if god exists and really intercedes in basketball games owning the the professed faith of the players, I suggest that he needs to hire a good triage person to help him sort out his priorities.)  Hell, lots of people are devout believers and lousy human beings. 
      Same with atheists.  Or communists.  Or free marketeers. 

      • Dec 9, 20131:38 am
        by jacob

        Reply

        HAHA let’s pray for a trade.

      • Dec 9, 201312:00 pm
        by Kathy Clater

        Reply

        Ouch!  MrHappyMushroom, sorry to offend someone I consider a friend.  I brought it up because of Tim’s “miracle” reference.  BTW, I haven’t been praying for “wins”, I’ve been praying for Siva to get his confidence and rhythm back. 

        • Dec 9, 20133:17 pm
          by Otis

          Reply

          Please pray for better stuff than that. Peyton will be fine, I promise. Pray Dumars finds Christ and makes a trade or two at the deadline before this team is doomed to mediocrity for the foreseeable future. Nothing else that relates to this team is more important than that.

        • Dec 9, 20137:49 pm
          by MrHappyMushroom

          Reply

          Not slaggin’ on ya, Kathy!  Just expressing my own side of the question–that god may or may not exist and a person’s faith in said being doesn’t inherently make that person better or more successful.
           

          • Dec 9, 20138:20 pm
            by Otis

            I think we can all agree that no altruistic God would allow this trade deadline to pass without any trades, dooming this team to a future of mediocrity and perpetual disappointment just because Joe Dumars was too much of a chickenshit to do anything worthwhile for this team rather than cross his fingers and hope they figure it out. If that happens, I think the Pope and even Kathy will agree that there can’t possibly be a God.

  • Dec 8, 201310:10 pm
    by frankie d

    Reply

    thank god joe didn’t make one more sucker trade and trade for rudy gay.
    hopefully, any chance joe would have traded for him is now gone.
    would really like to pick up vasuez from toronto, however, if he is available now.
    he could, imho, work well with jennings.

    • Dec 8, 201310:18 pm
      by Max

      Reply

      How bout Lowry instead?   He’d give the Pistons a better defensive option.  

      • Dec 8, 201311:10 pm
        by frankie d

        Reply

        would not mind lowrey as i think he would be a bit of an improvement in some ways over jennings – especially defensively – but i don’t think he is that much of an upgrade to justify the kind of price toronto would probably command for him.  a first round choice, plus, probably.
        i think vasquez would be a good match for jennings simply because of his size, toughness and absolute unselfishness.  you could play jennings off the ball more, and that would make him a more effective player, imho.  with a pG like vasquez feeding him the ball, jennings would be a terror, with his quickness.  biggest problem jennings has, offensively, is just his tendency to hog the ball and if you take the ball out of his hands and have a guy like vasquez make those kind of decisions, you could unleash jennings incredible quickness and he would be a formidable offensive weapon.
        i just have to say that i’ve loved vasquez since his college days at maryland, and i think it is only a matter of him finding the right spot in order for him to excel. playing with a front line like detroit’s could help mask his defensive shortcomings, which are serious.  he has to be one of the slowest perimeter players in the league, and he has definite problems with quickness and speed, defensively.  on a team like detroit, those problems might not be so obvious, and you could exploit his undeniable offensive skills.

        • Dec 8, 201311:56 pm
          by Max

          Reply

          I’m thinking though that since he’s the best piece the Raptors landed in the Gay deal that they probably like him and will be looking to move Lowry.   As I said before too, Lowry is a good defensive player so if the Pistons add him they could improve quite a bit on defense while having a great combo of point guards.   Also, I’d rather play Lowry and Jennings together than Vasquez and Jennings because the latter would be a truly terrible defensive backcourt.  How about Stuckey and Singler for Lowry and Novak or Fields? 

          • Dec 9, 201310:25 am
            by Tim Thielke

            I too would far prefer Lowry to Vasquez, but wouldn’t give up much of anythign for wither unless Jennings was being traded for some reason. Otherwise, Detroit ends up spending around max contract money between two adequate but not special PGs, neither of whom is very suited to playing without the ball in his hands.

            frankie d,
            If taking the ball out of Jennings’ hands was a good solution, Jennings/Ellis would have made a much more imposing backcourt.

          • Dec 9, 201312:46 pm
            by frankie d

            @ tim
            Lol!  That only works if you put it into the hands of a player who doesnt have the same ballhog tendencies.  Putting ellis and jennings together is laughable and the result was a predictable failure.
            Vasquez, however,  is a guy who is always thinking team and pass and he is the type of player who would balance off jennings worst tendencies.
            Yes, defensively vasqquez has serious issues and putting him in a backcourt with jennings is kind of scary.  But he tries and some of that might rub off on jennings, who could be an excellent defender if he actually put some effort into it.  Of course his slight build is always going to limit him but next to a huge PG like vasquez, his size might not kill him as much.
            Also, the pistons have needed a leader for a long time. Vasquez could be that guy. I think he would fit in very well, though lowrey would defi itely add something, too.
             

  • Dec 8, 201310:11 pm
    by frankie d

    Reply

    in case you missed it…rudy gay is now demarcus cousins’ teammate out in sac town.
    talk about interesting teams.  that should be a real hoot, after cousins watches gay jack up shot after shot after shot.
    good times….

    • Dec 8, 201311:50 pm
      by gmehl

      Reply

      Yeah poor old McLemore’s shot attempts just got cut in half. I wonder what it would take to get Jimmer Fredette away from the Kings. We could do with an outside shooter like him to free up the middle a little. I’m not saying he’ll provide anything else but 3pt shooting but if he’s rotting away on there bench then it might be worth a low ball offer to see if those crazy bastards bite.

      • Dec 8, 201311:57 pm
        by Max

        Reply

        I agree.

      • Dec 9, 20136:56 am
        by @GPMasters

        Reply

        Didnt the Kings decline Jimmer’s team option for the fourth year? He’s a UFA at the end of the season.

  • Dec 9, 201312:14 am
    by haydzzz

    Reply

    Giving Singer a C here is pretty low in my opinion. It was andres and gregs (especially greg) responsibility to not over commit but they kept doing it. I know dre stuffed the stat sheet but in the first half he looked half asleep defensively. Also greg is so damn slow at power forward its starting to get annoying. Anyways i think there is still a chance that they keep improving. Josh needs to stop jacking stupid shots and start playing lock down d. 

    • Dec 9, 201310:54 am
      by StallionMaster1

      Reply

      I agree.  Singler was just fine and his efficiency has been great over these last 5 games or so.  He should be playing 30 minutes a night when he is shooting this well.  Though he lacks lateral quickness, his effort is always there and his head is always in the game.  SMith can play better but he has never been an efficient player.  

  • Dec 9, 201312:53 am
    by WilliezWorld

    Reply

    Tim, I like your point about Cheeks possibly swapping Smoove’s and Dre’s defensive assignments. Well, I guess more appropriately probably shifting all of the frontcourt assignments. Let Moose guard the C, let Smoove guard the PF, and give Dre a shot at the SF. Most SFs in the league are not as adept at passing as Lebron, so in most other cases helping off of the C or PF when a SF drives might help to create some havoc for an opposing wing. Having said that, it would likely cause our defensive rebounding to suffer. I think there is a way to make it work, and no excuse for not trying when you have a generational athlete like Dre in the fold. Either way, Cheeks needs to show some creativity with how he handles this group.
    Having said all of that, I don’t think it’s to the point yet where anyone should panic about the way it is. We certainly could use an updated defensive scheme, but I get the feeling the coaches are working with these guys whilst trying to let them work it out together. I think we are trending in the right direction, but it is going to require work. Nights like tonight are tough to digest, but we are clearly overmatched against this team, I don’t think anyone should be surprised about that.

    • Dec 9, 20133:22 pm
      by Otis

      Reply

      Holy f*cking sh*t. If you’re seriously advocating having our shot-blocking center chase small forwards around screens on the perimeter while our worst shot blocking big protects the paint, you need to take a good long look in the mirror. This team is built wrong. No two ways about it. Instead of all these bullshit ideas on how to reinvent the wheel, what about just making a shrewd trade to have a CONVENTIONAL basketball team. Or is that just tooooo craaaayzy??

      • Dec 9, 20135:46 pm
        by TheBigS

        Reply

        Woah! Calm down Otis. His point is that Dre is much quicker laterally and on P&R switches, he does a decent job of defending smaller guys. Smith is a pretty good shot blocker and Moose is a better defender on slower centers. It would be an interesting experiment that could possible help Detroits poor defense alot. 

        • Dec 9, 20136:44 pm
          by Otis

          Reply

          I will not calm down when the subject being discussed is Andre Drummond leaving the paint to chase small forwards around the perimeter. And for what?? To keep a mediocre team together that is far less than the sum of its parts, when the trade options are near-limitless. Give me a break.

          • Dec 9, 20138:08 pm
            by gmehl

            The other thing to factor in Dre chasing around opposition SF is he’ll get gassed quickly and more than likely foul a lot more which will have him in foul trouble and more than likely sitting on the bench. I’m with Otis on this one…it’s a farked idea to consider having Dre do that.
             
            I don’t like it one bit but it is becoming more clear to me by the day that one of our big guys has to be traded for a better fitting SF. Who that big guy is i’ll let you choose but I guess the bigger question is who and what can we get for that big guy (cough cough Monroe). Someone above mentioned Gordon Hayward which will never happen because Utah have just gone through this whole 3 big man experiment themselves. Finally I’d like to add that I was never an advocate to trade Monroe but what other choice is there?? Drummond (nope)…Smith (nope).I guess we need to face the fact that those 2 guys are both centres and one of them have to go especially now that we have Smith (who is a PF) and locked in playing at SF.

          • Dec 9, 20138:25 pm
            by Otis

            I can’t believe you actually bothered to explain why we can’t cross-match Dre on opposing SFs. LOL it’s absurd on its face. Never, ever happen. However, I’m glad to welcome you to the side of reason. Moose has gotta go. God bless ya’ Moose, but you’re a center and that’s all you’ll ever be. If Dumars has us set up so Moose makes $60 mil to play PF and Smith makes $54 mil to play SF, it should be a felony.

          • Dec 9, 20139:27 pm
            by gmehl

            Otis the difference between you and myself on this topic is that the reason I think we should trade Monroe is because we already have Smith locked in playing out of position. If were able to flip Smith for a more traditional SF i’d much rather do that. Yeah I know on Smith’s deal he know has its unlikely. I am of firm belief that you can play maybe one guy out of position. For example if Joe had never signed Smith:

            Drummond could play C on offence
            Monroe could play PF on offence
            depending on who the matchup was they could interchange on defence
            then with the money Joe shelled out on Smith gone after a SF that could shoot

            I guess you could say i’m in the we need to trade Monroe club but its because we have already have Smith locked in. Put an asterix next to my name that says try and trade Smith first :-)

          • Dec 9, 201310:58 pm
            by Otis

            True I don’t want to play anyone out of position, and I never thought Monroe and Drummond were a good fit ever since I watched them play together and saw with my own eyes that they complemented each other like total shit. Even without Drummond, I’d only give Monroe a max contract if he was the only center I could get my hot little hands on. But the important thing is that with Smith here, all that is moot. You just plain can’t keep this thing going. I never thought the small forward existed who could make this floor spacing work with those two big lugs down low, and I’m sure Joe’s preference would have been to find that player if he was out there.
             
            The important thing is that Smith is here to stay. You’re not trading him for a legitimate SF, and I’m glad we both agree that to expect that is pure fantasy. Either way, I’m glad to have you on board. It’s the only sensible club there is these days.

      • Dec 10, 20131:58 am
        by WilliezWorld

        Reply

        I sure am agreeing with the comment that Dre should be given a shot at guarding a smaller, quicker, frontcourt player. Not in all situations across the board, but it may be something worth exploring. The point is about the coach. Cheeks is not the GM, obviously, so he has to play the guys he is given. Instead of continually putting Smith in a position to get beat, why not make some defensive adjustments? Our shot-blocking will suffer, you say? Who leads our team in blocks, though? Hint, his name isn’t Drummond and we signed him as a free agent this summer from Atlanta. We’ve actually seen that Drummond is still learning as a help-side defender, and that is often where his foul trouble comes from. Smith, on the other hand, ranks 11th in the league in rim protection, according to the SportVu player tracking while Drummond ranks 18th.
        This is not to say Drummond is not a top rim protector, but to say that Smith is now, and has historically been a tremendous defender on the block. The limited evidence we have of Drummond guarding smaller guys (mostly spot evidence at best) indicates he has the quickness, hands, and awareness to be an asset in that department. Am I saying that Drummond should never play on the block on defense? Absolutely not, but in spot duty and not just as the result of a switch, I absolutely think it should be TRIED.
        While you may be content to throw temper-tantrums about us not having your preferred personnel groupings to work with, Cheeks and folks in the reality-based world would like to see practical solutions with what we currently have to work with. Would I be pleased to see some sort of shakeup in personnel? Sure, always welcome improved talent and fit on my favorite NBA team. But I’m not going to make the perfect the enemy of the necessary, and it is absolutely necessary to work with what we currently have to find the best workable solutions until such time that Dumars (or his successor if he is no longer around) sees fit to change the personnel.
        To gmehl’s point of gassing Drummond too quickly, I do sympathize with that sentiment and would answer that by reiterating that it would not be a permanent solution – as in all 32+ mins Dre is on the floor running w/ a SF – but in spot duty if all 3 are out there, mixing up the assignments on a few possesions could provide some benefits.
        The overall point is to get creative. GMs put teams together and coaches use those pieces to the best of their knowledge, creativity, and ingenuity. It is not enough for a coach to just say, “I need better guys” or “I need guys that fit better together.” He needs to use the 3 aforementioned qualities and make something work.
        Oh, and Otis, having temper-tantrums on a blog site devoted to what is at the end of the day just a game…? YOU sir, “need to take a good long look in the mirror.”

  • Dec 9, 20132:25 am
    by pistons moribund

    Reply

    Bullwinkle is a center, Dre is a center.  Dre is better, trade Bullwinkle.  The only question is to trade him for who???? 

    • Dec 9, 20133:23 pm
      by Otis

      Reply

      Shrug. I dunno, let’s not be too picky. Let’s just get it done.

      • Dec 9, 201311:31 pm
        by Max

        Reply

        How can you say the Pistons should trade Monroe before the deadline because they will get so much more than during the off season but also say they should get it done and not be too picky?   I’m very much in favor of being very picky.   You don’t just throw away a young productive big like Monroe.  

        • Dec 10, 20133:04 am
          by WilliezWorld

          Reply

          I can imagine somebody like Otis in Sam Presti’s ear when he dumped Harden for what turned into Jeremy Lamb and Steven Adams (an actually pretty decent pick). That is hardly fair value, and was a completely uncecessary trade to make. It was a panic move, pure and simple. (Caveat: in no way am I saying Monroe is the superstar that Harden has proven to be, or that he fits with our team in a way that Harden fit with the Thunder, I’m simply drawing the comparison between the contract situations.) There is one huge difference in these situations though, Harden was set to be an unrestricted free agent so there was a real danger that at the end of the year he would walk for nothing and OKC had no leverage. We retain leverage with Monroe.
           
          So now, here we sit, 20 games into the season after having exhibited some growing pains mostly stemming from having our highest paid guy playing out of position. Smith is floating near the bottom of our team as measured by PER. Moose, also playing out of position is suffering as well. His PER has dipped to the lowest in his career, and he is clearly struggling on both ends of the floor.
           
          This is admittedly a very troubling situation. Critics are quick to say, clearly this is not working and needs to be addressed by shipping Monroe out, and it HAS to happen yesterday because we will only get less return in the long-run if we wait. The problem is, there is no evidence to support that assertion. Monroe is a very large and talented basketball player. Those types of guys do not decline in value simply because a trade deadline approaches.  
           
          In this type of situation, the Pistons hold all of the cards. They can wait to see what type of favorable offers they will get for Monroe at the deadline. If a can’t miss offer pops up before, they can take it, if the deadline comes without an offer, they can play this season out and see what type of results come about. When the free agency period starts, they can either offer Monroe their number, and see if he takes it. If he balks at their number, they can let him explore the open market.
           
          Maybe he does get a max offer, in which case the Pistons can pitch an ultimatum to the offering team for a favorable sign-and-trade or we will sit on the offer sheet for the 7 day period, in that time the market is likely to dry up. At the expiration of that period, we can always match (at a figure both cheaper and for a shorter duration than our own max offer would be) and begin again shopping him. Simply matching the offer does not mean we will be hamstrung into actually holding onto him for the entire contract, it just means that we will have the right to explore options that remain net positives for the team. 
           
          Further, by electing to match a more expensive offer (or sign him outright), we can change the dynamic of the trade that we do make. Right now, there is uncertainty surrounding the future salary committment it will take to keep Monroe on a roster. Uncertainty is not a friend to a business, and so that actually will detract from his value. However, a contract in the $14-15M range is not an unheard of figure for a very productive big man going into his prime years. Again, guys like Monroe – with his skill set and his size – are exceedingly rare. Having said that, the majority of the time you make a trade in the NBA, and you shed a big guy in the process, you are not going to get back fair value. It is simply the nature of the game that a 6-11 guy is going to be more valuable to a franchise than a wing player due to the rarity of the former.
           
          There is clear bias in the arguments that I see people on here making. I do not refute the assertion that we may need to make a deal to improve our chances of competing for a title in the future. But I think it is wrong to assert that a) we absolutely have to do it today, or else the sky is going to fall on our franchise; or b) if we don’t do it today then we will never be able to get a good deal for our player. 
           
          Like I said above, the Pistons hold all of the cards in this situation, so why would we rush into a deal and end up holding pennies on the dollar like the Thunder? One more point, there is a far lower probability of a team being able to use the minutea of the RFA rules (a la Asik or Lin) because Monroe will command a higher overall value and a longer contract and no team could structure it in a way that would be similarly unworkable for the Pistons.
           
          Otis, you make declarative statements as if they are irrefuteable facts, but please offer your reasoning for saying: “There is no chance whatsoever that we get anywhere near the same value as if we traded him now. None. So forget that.”

          • Dec 10, 20139:19 am
            by Tim Thielke

            Just a couple things to point out:
            1) Harden was going to be a RFA, not an UFA.
            2) Teams now only have 3 days to match an offer to their RFAs.

          • Dec 10, 201310:19 am
            by apa8ren9

            Thanks for being a reasonable voice @Williez World.   The tone in these comments is just unjustified for a team that was mercilessly bashed for being putrid the last few years and rightfully so.   We are around .500 with lots of room to improve.   Isnt that what we have clamored for the last few seasons?  Then to just blow by it and think that we just be beating OKC, Indiana and Miami on regularly is just nuts.  There have only been 21 games, we can recognize our deficiencies but they had to be addressed the right way.  Isnt that what people have been hammering Dumars about?  Yeah you need a SF.  The entire league knows that.  What is the rush?  Pope, Smoove, Drummond, Jennings all have to figure out new teammates and go through building chemistry.   The sky is not falling.  If it didnt fall the last 4 years it definitely isnt falling now.

  • Dec 9, 20133:23 am
    by Adam

    Reply

    To boston for Green Crawford and bass and a pick hahahaa

  • Dec 9, 20133:40 am
    by Hook Shot

    Reply

    Isn’t Green a tweener?  Is he a true small forward?  Can he shoot the J consistently?

  • Dec 9, 20137:35 am
    by Corey

    Reply

    I’ve been such a Moose fan, and was excited to watch hI’m and Andre grow together. But I’m finally going to have to agree with the “trade Moose” side. Andre is already better, and will be a superstar. Moose’s best value is at C- which means his best value is to a team that doesn’t have Andre. And the surprising ability of Harrellson means we do have a back C without Moose, which I didn’t think we had at the start of the year. if we can trade Moose+CV for a quality wing- especially a good SF to balance the roster, we’d really have something going here. 
    no fire sales, though. We only need the sixth seed to have a real shot at the 2nd round- which would be a great experience for the young guys. No reason to give Monroe away. But JoD should be looking for a good trade
     

    • Dec 9, 20133:24 pm
      by Otis

      Reply

      PREACH.
       
      Love to see this fanbase slowly come to its senses.

  • Dec 9, 20137:50 am
    by hoophabit

    Reply

    Cheeks is doing an overall fine job in my opinion.  I’d really like to know what “creative” course he might have followed in this game that would have made any difference?  The idea of having Drummond switch covers with Smith seems silly.  You’re going to have your center chase SFs around?  Sure, he does some incredible things on defense sometimes, but I think the team has better uses for his energy than that.
    Cheeks had Jennings and two rookie guards against the Miami Heat.  This loss shouldn’t be big shock to anyone, and it doesn’t detract from the Pistons being much improved.

    • Dec 9, 20138:44 am
      by Patti #1

      Reply

      Biggest problem was simply that Stuckey, CB and Bynum all injured on the bench.  That game against Chicago was a hard fought win.  They needed Stuckey.
       
      It’s disappointing to loose this game against Miami, but games coming up this week will be more important in the grand scheme of things.

    • Dec 9, 201310:31 am
      by Tim Thielke

      Reply

      I’ve watched Drummond follow a few PGs around after pick and rolls. He does a great job staying in front of them and his sheer size makes passing much more difficult.

      Other solutions could include finding different lineups and lots of other things I haven’t thought of because I’m not a creative coach.

  • Dec 9, 20138:20 am
    by Murph

    Reply

    This sight supported the Lawrence Frank hire, and stayed loyal to Frank though two 29 win seasons.
    On the other hand, this sight was critical of the Mo Cheeks hire, and rips Cheeks at every opportunity, even though the Pistons are just under .500, and playing their best ball in 6 years.
    Enough said.

    • Dec 9, 201310:38 am
      by Tim Thielke

      Reply

      This site has many voices, both among the writers and the commenters. So ti will never be consistent. Personally, I was less down on the Frank hire at the time than on the Cheeks hire. That was largely because of all the fantastic options when Cheeks was hired, though.

      There were very few who stuck up for Frank through two full seasons, though. But your point about the Pistons playing a bit better now: well they’d better be after they just swapped Knight, Maggette, and Maxiell into Smith and Jennings. You should be aware that there is more to good coaching than W-L record. If that’s all there is to it, I could be a good coach on the Heat right now.

      • Dec 9, 201312:16 pm
        by I HATE FRANK

        Reply

        Frank was a horrible coach from the jump….Cheeks actually has people skills which goes along way…and although not a great coach cheeks has shown the ability to manage talent
         
        Frank will never be forgive for mishandling Drummond 

      • Dec 9, 20139:08 pm
        by gmehl

        Reply

        @Tim There seems to be a jump in numbers of piston.com posters here at pistonpowered due to them winning a little more this season. You know the ones that suckle on the Keith Langlois teat like it has cocaine coming out of it.

        • Dec 9, 201311:00 pm
          by Tim Thielke

          Reply

          maybe it does

        • Dec 10, 20137:45 am
          by Murph

          Reply

          @gmehl…first off, I have no idea what the hell you’re talking about.  “suckle on the Keith Langlois teat like it has cocaine coming out of it.”???  What the hell are you talking about???
           
          Second, your comment could not possibly be direct toward me, as I’ve never posted on Pistons.com in my entire life.
           
           

    • Dec 9, 20133:30 pm
      by Otis

      Reply

      1) I’ll agree with Tim that there were better options when Cheeks was hired. I thought Frank was the best of a bad lot, and I would have puked if they hired Woodson. But these are all bad hires, so no need to pretend like any of these coaches are worth a damn.
       
      2) Cheeks is working with more talent than Frank ever had here. You went out and spent $80 mil on Josh Smith and Brandon Jennings, plus a few other useful parts, without losing anything of significance. So I should sure as hell hope the record is better. That doesn’t say anything about ol’ Butt Cheeks. There’s a good chance he’s actually even worse than Frank.
       
      3) Cheeks has shown no ability to do anything. Let’s clear that up too.

  • Dec 9, 20138:45 am
    by I HATE FRANK

    Reply

    4-1 week… Drummond averaged 18.4ppg 16.8rebs (averaged 6-7 offensive rebs) 2blks 2.4steals shot 63%….eastern conference player of the week? 
    Not sure what other players stood in the last 4-5 games 

  • Dec 9, 20139:29 am
    by Robb

    Reply

    I think you all are over reacting a little bit, we have 3 of our PG’s hurt at the moment…Once Stuckey and Bynum get back in the rotation things will even back out scoring wise…I say keep the BIG THREE and work around them…We are much much improved and can see growth, we won’t win the championship this year but I will take a playoff over another losing season anyday…

    • Dec 9, 20133:37 pm
      by Otis

      Reply

      Even if making the playoffs means we’re fully committed to being mediocre? Missing the chance to GET something for Stuckey before he moves on to another team? Missing the chance to get full value for Moose, rather than commit to overpaying his slow, no defense ass for the next four years? I’d much rather miss the playoffs one last time and come back next season with the pieces in place to be very good for a long time.
       
      But shit what do I know? Maybe it turns out that Will Bynum (who is a limited player by any standard, and whom half the fanbase hates and wants gone) and Chauncey Billups (who was a clear liability in all but his first game and pretty much looked finished at age 37) and Stuckey (who, if he’s so important, we can’t possibly afford to lose for nothing in free agency) were all the difference between us beating the Heat. Forget that the Heat were missing perennial All-Star Dwyane Wade and Piston killer Michael Beasley. Let’s focus on which of our guys were out and pretend that was the difference. Because we’re Piston fans, right? Let’s not think for ourselves. Let’s believe we’re destined to win the world championship this year and every year! GO PISTONS. Stay the course!

      • Dec 9, 20138:00 pm
        by jamesjones_det

        Reply

        Small correction, Beasley played the game in Miami and dropped 23 on us.
         
        Though I think the tone is too down, I can’t disagree with most of it.  Monroe is a bit sticky and probably should be moved if we don’t intend to keep him but Suckey and CV could turn into off season cap space assuming we renounce their rights as soon as it’s possible so I’m not as worried about not moving them if we can’t get a good deal (I’m pretty sure you can renounce and sign the same day if I recall correctly).
         
         

        • Dec 9, 20138:28 pm
          by Otis

          Reply

          Good call on Beasley. I was confusing the game where they had him and lost to the one where they lost him and still won. OOPS.
           
          That said, why would you want to renounce Stuckey and lose him for nothing when he’s having a career year and would make a nice trade chip? I mean, I’m sure you can get at least a little something for him. Though for Christ’s sake, the move should have been done already, rather than sit on our fat asses remind the world that he has trouble staying healthy… Grumble…

          • Dec 9, 201310:54 pm
            by Max

            It’s very easy to say players should be traded and for full value but it’s a lot harder to actually put together realistic trades that both teams will agree to consummate.   I could spend all day shouting for better players who fit better like you do but I’ve looked around the league and see very few options.  There are several scenarios where I’d be on board with trading Monroe or Smith but I’m not sure in any of the cases if the other team would do it.   People say Klay Thompson but that is never happening.    
            I’m definitely more optimistic about the Pistons than you but I’m also ultimately much more pessimistic than you that the Pistons wouldn’t get fleeced in a Monroe deal whether it happens before the dead line or during the summer.  I can see you’re a passionate fan Otis but it really annoys me that you never name names regarding trade targets while you’re shouting about Dumars and Monroe’s inadequacies and I really wonder if you’ve even thought through what Monroe is really likely to land given the current landscape. 
            You said to someone else that they needed to be more flexible and creative than demanding Klay Thompson back in a Monroe trade and I agree but what player can they get where the best player they get isn’t a far inferior asset than Monroe?   People say the team that get the best player usually wins the deal and the landscape looks to me like every wing who is arguably roughly equivalent to Monroe in value is simply unavailable for one reason or another.   Batum is just about the only option I can think of where the Pistons would get a fairly equal to better player and asset and hopefully win the deal from a team that could use a center but I still have no idea if the Blazers would have any interest. 

          • Dec 10, 20139:51 am
            by Huddy

            @Max, it doesn’t matter what interest other GMs have or who they are willing to give up.  A good GM would just hit the “force trade” button and BOOM quality wing and lottery pick for Monroe.  You probably wouldn’t event have to use the force trade button because it is obvious that teams love Monroe so much that they want to give up great wings and picks for him now fully aware of his impending contract and free agency.  Keep in mind though, there is NO WAY EVER that those same teams are still going to want to trade for him on that same impending contract if the Pistons resign him.  Just for a recap, the Pistons can DEFINITELY 100% get a good wing and draft pick for Monroe now and have NO CHANCE of getting anything good back for the same player on the same widely accepted impending contract after the all but assured contract is given to him. 

          • Dec 10, 201310:12 am
            by Tim Thielke

            From a “what Monroe is worth” standpoint, your tongue-in-cheek argument is spot on. However, there are more trade options on his current deal than after resigning because getting the moving salaries to fit under the CBA is much easier.

            But yes, Otis’ notion that Monroe will become much less valuable under the inevitable terms of his next deal is ridiculous.

          • Dec 10, 20132:43 pm
            by Dan Feldman

            Well done, Huddy

  • Dec 9, 201310:06 am
    by Dmoc

    Reply

    Agree with Robb, we just had a 4 game winning streak and then have to play the world champs after we embarrassed them a week ago.  You had to know we were going to get beat up.  Add that to the fact that Stuckey was injured along with Bynum and Billups and that is a recipe for disaster.  No surprises in this game.

    • Dec 9, 201311:35 am
      by MIKEYDE248

      Reply

      I agree with both of you.  This game IMO was a scheduled loss.  With the Pistons playing back to back games and being short handed, you could see the writing on the wall for this one.  On top of all that Miami had something to prove last night too, with them going down there and beating them earlier in the week.

      • Dec 9, 201312:35 pm
        by jamesjones_det

        Reply

        Not to mention the Heat play Indy tomorrow, they were probably using the Pistons as a warmup game for that match up.

        • Dec 9, 20133:48 pm
          by Otis

          Reply

          Yeah, good call guys. That four game win streak sure meant a whole lot. WOW what a run. HUGE wins against PHI and MIL who are clear-cut bottom-dwellers, CHI minus two (2) All-Stars, and a complete fluke where MIA (also missing an A–Star) was M.I.A. and swiftly shattered any misperceptions that these teams are anywhere near the same league. Let’s continually reference it for the rest of the season as what the REAL Pistons are capable of. Forget how they were dismantled by the Lakers home and away, and the Hawks home and away. Forget that they’re sub-.500 and still have NO WINS WHATSOEVER against good teams at full strength. Forget all that stuff. Let’s talk all season long about that fraudulent, meaningless four game win streak. Even if it proves to be the unquestioned high water mark for the season. Let’s never hear the end of it. Please. Let’s.

          • Dec 9, 20135:27 pm
            by Tim Thielke

            Meh, sometimes your negativity is just a little too forced.

            Nobody’s ever at full strength. As long as James is healthy, the Heat are a very good team. And they had Bosh too.

            Look, if this 4 game win streak is the highlight of Detroit’s season, that would be a let down, but it was still impressive.

            We can find disclaimers for every single one of Detroit’s wins and losses (and the same for every other team). At the end of the day, those disclaimers are only worth pointing out if they are unusually noteworthy–which, by definition, most of them can’t be.

          • Dec 9, 20137:03 pm
            by Otis

            Tell you what, let’s put this to the test. I’ve been following this team since most of you whippersnappers were in diapers, and I’ve gotten used to the patterns that always seem to emerge. Every time this team goes on a completely unremarkable stretch (four or five wins, somewhere between one and zero quality wins) we have to hear about it all year. Like that was the team we assembled, as opposed to the team that went on ten separate three or four game losing streaks that actually revealed something about the team. That’s the only thing i actually detested about this streak. Utterly meaningless and we’re going to have to hear about it all season long. It was not an impressive streak. You have my solemn word. If you think the Heat were “solid” in that first matchup you should consider taking medications. That game was the definition of a fluke. Even more so than the win last season where Wade also say out and Daye scored 21 points on 9 of 11 shooting, because at least the Heat put up a fight in that game.
             
            As for Detroit’s wins this season, you have eight against bad teams (WAS, BOS, SAC, NYY, PHI, BKN, and MIL twice) who can’t possibly be considered measuring sticks. You said yourself that this team can’t keep all its core pieces intact going forward and expect to add much because of those fat cap holds. So you can’t use that rubbish to make yourself feel good about your team. You need to be above average. And the two wins against quality, depleted teams had significant enough disclaimers that it’s not a stretch to point right at them. No Wade, and they came RIGHT back five days later to demonstrate with authority what a fluke that was. And Chicago short two All-Stars. That’s two more All-Stars than Detroit can even claim in the first place. I’m not exactly “reaching” here. Those are the only real disclaimers that need to be attached, because the rest of our wins are meaningless. How we stack up to the top half of the league is the ONLY thing that matters when we’re facing the kinds of crossroads that lie ahead with Stuckey and Moose.

          • Dec 9, 20137:41 pm
            by sebastian

            Trust me, I am not enlisted in Otis’ Army, but pretty much everything that he has typed along  this thread is pretty damn sane.
            Moose is not a starting PF. His game isn’t commiserate for a max contract. He is clumpsy and has Kwame Brown’s hands. He is outplayed by any opposing player, who claims to be a front line player. Hell, dudes like John Henson, Steven Adams, Jordan Hill, an old ass Jermaine O’Neal have all outplayed Moose during the first 1/4 of the season.
            Like Otis has comment: Moose couldn’t even work Shane Battier, last night. Much less Chris Anderson or Chris Bosh. Hell Joel ANthony and Greg Oden probably will roll Moose’s as.
            Joe needs to move Moose, sooner rather than late, because Moose is becoming exposed with each game played.
             
             

          • Dec 9, 20138:31 pm
            by Otis

            C’mon, enlist. You know you wanna.

          • Dec 9, 201311:04 pm
            by Tim Thielke

            Just like a good team (Miami) played a bad game and got beat by Detroit, Detroit has beaten some lesser teams that played good games.

            So which is it? Do you want wins over good teams or over teams that played well? The Pistons have both. Yeah, they don’t have any wins over really good teams that played on the tops of their games. But there are probably less than a dozen such wins so far among all the teams in the entire league. So it’s hardly worth fretting that Detroit doesn’t have any.

  • Dec 9, 201312:21 pm
    by jay

    Reply

    Hey Tim it seems to me that you are more content on Monroe numbers than the team… Yea you could find more mins for Monroe at c position but you will be sacrificing drummond’s mins to do so. I think we both can agree that would not be a smart thing to do.  Monroe needs to be trading for multiple reasons.  He’s playing out of position n he’s not worth a Max contract 

  • Dec 9, 20131:34 pm
    by jay

    Reply

    My bad for the double post 

  • Dec 9, 20132:02 pm
    by DetroitP

    Reply

    I am curious to see how this team would be if the East had any good teams.  This is the worst the conference has looked in a really long time.
     
    I’d like to see if we could some how manage to get Beal from Washington they need a big, Nene and Gortat are so average, Moose Beal makes sense

    • Dec 9, 20132:53 pm
      by Tim Thielke

      Reply

      Monroe for Beal would be a fantastic trade. i don’t know how the Wizards feel about it, but it would certainly be worth floating past them.

      • Dec 9, 20133:50 pm
        by Otis

        Reply

        I’d throw in two hours worth of phone sex for the GM.

        • Dec 9, 20134:13 pm
          by DetroitP

          Reply

          hahahah^

          • Dec 9, 201311:01 pm
            by Max

            I highly doubt they would trade Beal.  

          • Dec 9, 201311:05 pm
            by Tim Thielke

            And the phone sex offer isn’t going to move the needle; well, not in the right direction anyway.

      • Dec 10, 20132:15 pm
        by T Casey

        Reply

        Get rid of our most efficient scorer for another terribly inefficient chucker? Why not…

        • Dec 10, 20133:49 pm
          by Tim Thielke

          Reply

          Wait, who was suggesting trading Drummond for someone inefficent?

          I think the suggestion was trading Monroe for a guy who hits 44% from beyond the arc.

  • Dec 9, 20132:04 pm
    by DetroitP

    Reply

    I think Beal is going to be something special too, his shot is just so damn smooth

    • Dec 9, 20133:47 pm
      by jamesjones_det

      Reply

      I like Beal but I’m not sure what you do with KCP if we get him (could come off the bench I suppose).  I don’t think we could get away with KCP, Beal or Singler at the 3 spot against bigger SFs like Melo or LBJ.

      • Dec 9, 20133:53 pm
        by Otis

        Reply

        Where a piece like KCP falls after a deal like that is the absolute least of my worries. He can come off the bench for now. There’s plenty of room for two-way wings on any given team (not quite the case with centers, where too much depth can apparently be a bad thing), and if KCP develops to the point where he should clearly be starting, that’s a very good problem to have.

        • Dec 9, 20134:10 pm
          by jamesjones_det

          Reply

          I was kind of alluding to two issues, one is many don’t want to give up on KCP (obvious) the other not so obvious was it still leaves a big hole at the 3 spot for us.
           
          I’m all for upgrading either the SF or SG position but if we are going to move Josh from the 3 we need to start thinking about who can take his spot at the position over the long haul.

          • Dec 9, 20134:27 pm
            by Otis

            Understood. But I’d just fly with Singler for now. I’d also be shopping Stuckey aggressively too. But to me filling those perimeter holes is a secondary concern. Getting value for Moose and Stuckey so we’re not left with lose-lose decisions on those guys in July would be my top priority. You might be able to get picks for them, and even if not, as long as you maintain your flexibility by not taking on much long-term salary you can go out and sign a free agent SF. If you sit on Moose and Stuckey, you will have no freedom in July until you sign/release one or both.

        • Dec 9, 20139:54 pm
          by gmehl

          Reply

          If not Beal then how about Otto Porter??

          • Dec 9, 201310:16 pm
            by I HATE FRANK

            He’ll no to otto porter… 

          • Dec 9, 201311:03 pm
            by Max

            How about Monroe and KCP for Beal and Ariza or Webster? 

          • Dec 9, 201311:04 pm
            by Otis

            Ignore him. I’ll take Otto Porter. Consider it done.

          • Dec 9, 201311:13 pm
            by Tim Thielke

            If you can trade Monroe for a prospect like Porter, you gotta do it because Porter is basically a freebie. Then you have the max cap space from losing Monroe to go after another player of similar value (whether he’s a big or not).

            Think about it this way: would you rather have Monroe plus Stuckey or Porter plus Bosh plus the late first rounder you could probably get for Stuckey? Signing that FA (bosh or other) is not a sure thing, but if you do have concerns about the fit of this roster, that’s a chance you have to take.

          • Dec 9, 201311:32 pm
            by gmehl

            Porter has had like 3-4 preseason games while carrying an injury and your saying ‘hell no’ to him. Porter would compliment our lineup perfectly IMHO. If Otis got his wish and we were to say trade Monroe for Porter + future 1st rounder. You could slide Smith back to PF and have either Singler or Porter start at SF.
            PG-Jennings
            SG-KCP
            SF-Porter/Singler
            PF-Smith
            C-Drummond

          • Dec 9, 201311:39 pm
            by Max

            Monroe for Porter is horrible because he could be a total bust–not to make too much of summer league but he looked like he didn’t even belong.   In the NBA, he’s only played two games where he contributed nothing.   
            Also, signing Bosh or a player who could rival Monroe seems like an incredible long shot to me.

          • Dec 9, 201311:41 pm
            by gmehl

            @Tim I will take Bosh + Porter. I would still see if Washington would trade Porter + a future 1st rounder for Monroe.
            This way we would have Porter and two 1st rounders assuming trading Stuckey could secure one and Washington give up one for Porter & Monroe.
            Adding 2 1st rounders and Porter would make the hit of losing a big man of Monroe’s talent a lot easier to move on from. I suppose you also have to look at things from Washington’s side as they still have Nene and Gortat.

          • Dec 9, 201311:44 pm
            by gmehl

            Correction… I meant to say:
            This way we would have Porter and two 1st rounders assuming trading Stuckey could secure one and Washington give up one for Monroe in the Porter deal.

          • Dec 9, 201311:48 pm
            by Max

            Anyone remember when Mitch Richmond won rookie of the year and got traded before the next for the rights to Billy Owens?   How about when Elton Brand won the award and was traded before the next season for the rights to Eddy Curry?   Monroe may never have won the ROY but he is still a very young player, maybe the 2nd best from his draft and you don’t trade a sure thing for a possible bust.  

          • Dec 10, 20137:44 am
            by I HATE FRANK

            The love affair with porter is foolish he was a one year wonder in college…I watch them player very overrated…he is or was a very good college player for one season…he got to Washington and we struggling even in practice he was not gonna beat out ariza or Webster for minutes… I wouldn’t even give up Kyle for him…he is ed o’bannon

          • Dec 10, 20134:38 pm
            by Huddy

            Why do the Wizards trade Porter’s unknown talent for Monroe at this point in the season?  They just acquired Gortat who is playing well and is a better defender and NeNe has been playing great for them so Monroe isn’t worth enough to them this season to throw away Porter before they even see what he is worth while he is so cheap AND a future pick.  If they love Monroe they can bid on him in free agency or approach the Pistons with a sign and trade offer once they figure out if Gortat will stick as their starting center, how much porter is worth, and who else is available (and at what price). 

  • Dec 9, 20134:59 pm
    by Kamal

    Reply

    I’m still one of the last remaining Monroe fans out there.  I think he has the potential to be a fringe all star, nothing great, but damn good.  This season, numbers-wise have been a disappointment for him.  However, his shot attempts are down as his touches (I’m guessing) so his points per game are down.  And Drummond is clearly cutting into his rebound numbers.  But I truly believe that Monroe’s defense has improved since last season.  Now, he holds his own in the post, when last season he gave up so much ass down there.  
    I know a lot of people think we have to trade Monroe to avoid over paying for him.  But I don’t think so.  Currently, Monroe is the 4th or 5th best player on an average team.  He ain’t getting anywhere near the max if he keeps this up.  He does help us get better with him on the squad.  I think having that big frontline is a good problem to have.  We lead the league in points in the paint and offensive rebounds.  I like that.  If we could shoot better, especially in the beginning of the season, we’d probably have like 4 more wins.
    Trading Moose to avoid overpaying him is smart, but I think he’s playing himself out of a ridiculous contract and will get paid according to what he really is – a piece on a good team, hopefully a contender.

    • Dec 9, 20135:26 pm
      by Otis

      Reply

      I agree with basically half of what you said. The bottom line is that Moose isn’t going to suddenly become a star caliber player, and he’s even more unlikely to play his way out of a near-max contract. He’s 23 and put up pretty darn good numbers at center. You absolutely 100% can not bank on getting him to sign for a reasonable $10-12 mil deal. Even if you could, I still think the value of that signing would still be in trading him at some point. This isn’t a difficult decision, and even a Moose booster like yourself can see that.

    • Dec 9, 20136:34 pm
      by Desolation Row

      Reply

      23 year old centers with his skills don’t go on the market for much below the max deal. I’m a fan of his, but I think his future is David West. Not worth max money, IMO. Trade or have a plan to pay him while being able to upgrade the roster. 

      • Dec 9, 20137:11 pm
        by Otis

        Reply

        If his future was David West I’d keep him in a heartbeat. Have you seen David West play? Greg Monroe is no David West.
         
        Also, there is no way to pay him and upgrade the roster the way we’re going. We owe Charlotte our first rounder this season, and we’ll have no cap space whatsoever to add talent because all of our money will be tied up in cap holds for Stuckey and Moose. So we’ll have to renounce Stuckey for starters. If you think it makes sense that we’ll come back stronger by letting one of our best players this season walk for nothing, then I’d like to load some of whatever you’re smoking into a crack pipe and float away to dream land. If we trade one or both guys and get some assets to grow on, then we can come into the summer with cap space and cheap assets and have a chance of coming back strong. If we plan on keeping Rodney and Greg, the future is going to be shit.

      • Dec 9, 20138:33 pm
        by Otis

        Reply

        Greg Monroe isn’t fit to wear David West’s jockstrap on his head, even just for a cheap laugh.

        • Dec 9, 201310:20 pm
          by DetroitP

          Reply

          Yeah man you look at Greg as a scrub, your 100 percent wrong.  I don’t really want to get rid of him if we don’t get something really good in return.  The dudes 23, and is a really good ball player, and you completely hate on him.  Your wrong

          • Dec 9, 201311:08 pm
            by Otis

            Nope. Good try, but no cigar.
             
            Where was this miracle ball player last night when SMALL FORWARD Shane Battier was his matchup? Was he pushing that little guy around, fighting for post position, demanding the ball, exploiting his enormous size advantage? What’s that you say? He wasn’t? He was taken to school by a small forward and didn’t make the other team pay for matching him up with a little dude? 3 for 10? 1:2 assist to turnover ratio, you say? But gosh I could have sworn this dope was supposed to have some kind of size advantage with almost every matchup at PF. Huh. Go figure. There must be something I’m missing. Maybe you can teach me about basketball some day, young buck.

          • Dec 9, 201311:12 pm
            by Max

            I’m open to him being moved but I agree with this.  
            If the Pistons can’t get Klay Thompson, Bradley Beal or Nic Batum I have a hard time thinking they won’t lose the trade big time.  And I really doubt they can get any of these players.  People bring up Haywood and that would be okay but not great shakes in that he’s not really worth Monroe even if he’s a much better fit–the problem is that Utah would never do that deal because they are set with their young bigs.  Anything less than Haywood though would be totally unacceptable.   The Pistons shouldn’t give Monroe away.  

          • Dec 9, 201311:22 pm
            by Max

            @Otis   This is one of your more strained arguments .   Shane Battier is one of the best defensive players in the league and guards any position better than most of the players at their position.   And it was just one game against the league’s champs.   Monroe has had success against Miami and all kinds of players before so you’re just being silly.  
            Also, there is quite the contradiction when you’re arguing with someone who says he wants a lot in return for Monroe and that you’re wrong to act like he’s a scrub.   Why argue with this when you say Monroe will get max money and that the Pistons can get a worthy haul for him unless you were going to to agree with his first point, that the Pistons need to get a lot in return and that argue you with his second point by saying you don’t think Monroe is a scrub.  You have said as much before so I don’t understand your post other than it seems like you like ranting and venting.  

          • Dec 9, 201311:29 pm
            by Tim Thielke

            Otis will look for excuses to criticize the Pistons. You have to understand that he’s not trying to present a fair view of where they’re at. Rather, he feels there is too much positivity about them bubbling up on this site and he’s trying to restore balance.

        • Dec 9, 201311:17 pm
          by Tim Thielke

          Reply

          Greg Monroe is a very good player. Probably the best comparison is Carlos Boozer. Look at their stats, style of play, etc at the same points in their careers. They’re almost identical.

          This may not sound flattering but that’s because people forget how good Boozer was in Utah. Easily as good as David West.

          • Dec 9, 201311:18 pm
            by Tim Thielke

            That said, it makes him worth a max contract if you need a big man, but not so good that any team should fall over itself to hand one to him and then sort things out later.

          • Dec 10, 201312:38 am
            by Brigs

            Completely agree with your assesment on Monroe and Otis Lol

    • Dec 9, 20139:14 pm
      by frankie d

      Reply

      monroe is worth a max extension because someone will pay that to him.  end of story.
      it doesn’t matter what you think or what i think, i will bet my last dollar that monroe will get his max extension next summer.  either detroit will give it to him outright or someone else will and they will match it.
      this entire conversation about monroe is just getting stupid.  i don’t know what it is with detroit fans – imho, it is a manifestation of a serious inferiority complex – but they constantly undervalue the talent on their teams, especially the pistons. 
      i remember all the fans raving about getting AI for chauncey.  chauncey, wasn’t that good, they said, while AI was…well…AI.
      a lot of the same people said that amir was nothing but a one dimensional, offensively incompetent fringe player who would struggle to keep a seat at the end of an nba bench, let alone become a decent rotational piece.
      i’m watching orlando on nba tv right now, and i’ll never forget all of the fans actually applauding getting rid of afflalo for less than nothing – they gave him away to clear salary to sign the gordon/CV/wilcox trio -and detroit fans basically said he was nothing to worry about.  (how dumb does that look now.)  
      the exact same idiocy is happening with monroe right now.   if they are dumb enough to trade him – and i think they will – detroit fans will have the same kind of regrets they had with chauncey and afflalo..
      what is so stupid is that you’d think that detroit fans had seen this act once too many times and wouldn’t fall for it again. 
      unfortunately, that doesn’t seem to be the case.

      • Dec 9, 20139:33 pm
        by T Casey

        Reply

        I agree completely. I was in the camp who saw getting rid of Afflalo as a terrible mistake back then and I feel the same way about Monroe. He doesn’t have quite the same intangibles or skill for his position that Afflalo had/has, but he’s still been probably our most valuable player so far.

        • Dec 9, 201311:22 pm
          by Tim Thielke

          Reply

          You’d have to be crazy to think Monroe has been more valuable than Drummond.

          The only possible argument to support that is that you can run offense through Monroe but you can’t through Drummond. However, in spite of having way more plays run for him (Monroe has 35 more FGAs, 19 more FTAs, and 22 more TOs than Drummond so far), Monroe has only outscored Drummond by 15 points this season.

          • Dec 9, 201311:34 pm
            by Otis

            “You’d have to be crazy to think Monroe has been more valuable than Drummond.”
             
            DING DING DING DING DING
             
            By George, I think you’re on to something!

          • Dec 10, 201312:42 am
            by Brigs

            Yea if Ben gordon had played up to his contract, we all would’ve forgot affalo was even on the pistons. I’m sayin this because having Drummond on the team guarantees that won’t happen with monroe

          • Dec 10, 20132:32 pm
            by T Casey

            I never said he was the most valuable for a fact, only that their is a strong likelihood, as there is with Drummond. There is certainly an argument to made for Monroe being more valuable atm. Statistically, he’s had the most impressive man-to-man defensive performances this season holding West, Aldridge, Ibaka, Nene, and Bosh below their season averages. And, on the flip sied, he’s the most efficient scorer on the team.
            Drummond is a great defensive presence and clearly has more upside moving forward. But, right now, it’s a toss up. As good as Drummond is defensively and on the boards, he can’t score on his own and still needs someone to set him up with an assist in most situations which Moose doesn’t. Also, Moose’s offense has been stunted quite a bit lately by Smith and Jennings chucking. Before Jennings came back and began taking shots from the front line while missing the majority of them, Moose was putting up nearly 22 points per game. Now, I’m not saying he would still be averaging 22 ppg, but he’s def be scoring more if not for Jennings and Smith’s insistence on putting up the most shots on the team regardless of how bad they are shooting most nights.

          • Dec 10, 20134:00 pm
            by Tim Thielke

            Monroe is not the most efficient scorer on the team. In spite of taking up a lot more possessions than Drummond, he scores less than one point more per game.

            No, you cannot make a decent case that he has been more valuable than Drummond. But I can’t really hope to reason with someone who claims Monroe has had more impressive defensive performances than Drummond.

          • Dec 10, 20139:47 pm
            by T Casey

            You can’t reason with anyone when you don’t bring any reason to the discussion. All you’re doing is conveniently coming up with shallow reasons to excuse yourself from having to back up anything you say with stats and taking everything I say out of context and re-wording it to make your refusal to engage in a discussion further look more reasonable. 
            Now, with all that out of the way, I specifically said Monroe has had the “most impressive man-to-man defensive performances” so far on the team. That’s different than simply having the most impressive defensive performances on the team. I’m not considering help defense and rotations where Drummond is clearly better. Simply man-to-man defense. If you can name a better list of players that Drummond has limited, then, good, you’ve made a point and I’ll concede. If not, then all you’re doing is blowing smoke.
            Lastly, if Monroe is not the most efficient scorer on the team, then who is?

          • Dec 10, 201311:41 pm
            by T Casey

            *I shouldn’t say “everything,” but you’re de taking half of what I say out of context.

      • Dec 9, 201311:32 pm
        by Otis

        Reply

        Frankie D, we never agree. On to the slaughter:
         
        1) Oops, we agree on one thing right off the bat. Moose is getting a max contract, or something so close to the max that it’s basically the same thing. We just don’t agree on who should give it to him.
         
        2) It’s not about undervaluing talent, it’s about recognizing that this is a league where you badly need to maximize your assets, and building around two centers and a power forward, playing two of them out of position in the process, is the textbook opposite of maximizing your assets. It’s actually the way only a complete asshole would try to build an NBA team. A smart man would assemble major pieces that complement each other and make themselves and their teammates better, not worse. Furthermore, appreciating Monroe’s value is paramount to the argument that he should be traded… because he is valuable. Smith on that fat contract simply does not have very much trade value. And attaching Monroe to a similar (but significantly larger) contract will have a similar effect on his value and our flexibility in finding trade partners. At the moment, we have near-unlimited flexibility in trading him and can expect to get impact talent. If Moose had little or no value, I’d keep him around just because I’m lazy.
         
        3) I actually think it’s the loser’s mentality of this fanbase that has them so deeply and irrationally in love with this slow-footed, one-dimensional, second best center on the roster. These fans (yourself apparently included) are so enamored with this guy, seemingly because we were so starved for quality big men, and quality players in general, when we landed him. It’s like the virgin who marries the first girl who sleeps with him. Monroe is that girl, and you guys are the virgin. Have some standards.
         
        4) AI obviously has/had his rabid fans, and people might have just plain been excited by the prospect of shaking up what was considered a stagnant team. You’re not going to talk any sense into AI fans just like I’m not going to be able to talk sense into people who think it makes any sense to give Monroe a max contract to play in between another center and a power forward. It’s psychotic, but there’s no talking sense into some people.
         
        5) Who ever applauded getting rid of Afflalo for nothing? I must have missed that. Not many people seemed to be as upset about it as me, but I thought it was one of the most fucked up things I ever saw. However, he wasn’t traded to clear money for BG or CV. He and Amir were thrown in the garbage in order to clear a small amount of money for Wilcox. And again, some people thought that was a great idea. Most did not.
         
        6) Don’t worry, Joe isn’t dumb enough to trade Moose. He’s dumb enough to keep him in the vain hope that Gores is dumb enough to be fooled into thinking this team is working.

        • Dec 9, 201311:50 pm
          by Tim Thielke

          Reply

          I know you love this “girl you lose your virginity to” metaphor, but it’s not at all apropos because the entire basis of that metaphor is that you can only be married to one person and so you shouldn’t settle.

          In the NBA, you get to have multiple players on your team so “marrying” Monroe doesn’t keep you from getting someone even better.

          • Dec 9, 201311:57 pm
            by Max

            And you can always get a divorce after the nuptials. 

          • Dec 10, 201312:25 am
            by Tim Thielke

            Yes, but you still have to cut bait with the first to get a second. I wouldn’t object to it if that wasn’t the crux of the analogy. But since it is, I think the whole metaphor a poor choice.

          • Dec 10, 20133:41 am
            by gmehl

            So getting a prenup would only be if allowed if there is ever anorther amnesty clause brought in I assume

        • Dec 10, 201312:17 am
          by frankie d

          Reply

          what is so ridiculous about the trade monroe imperative is that it is predicated on the fact that smith makes him superfluous.
          now let me get this straight…
          because detroit now has josh smith, monroe is no longer needed.
          you will trade a 23 year old 7 footer in order to keep a 28 year old 6’9″ tweener.
          a 6’9″ tweener with a career TS % of .514, who is currently shooting .452 and who has offensive/defensive ratings of 91 and 102.
          in order to keep that guy, who is 5 years older than your 7 footer, with 6 more seasons of wear, you are going to trade a 23 year old 7 footer with career TS %s of .549, while shooting almost .538 this year – and it bears repeating that smith is shooting.452 this year! – and has an offensive/defensive rating of 108/104.
          and not to mention that smith has .4 win shares, while monroe has 1.8 win shares this year.  that would place monroe second – behind drummond – in win shares, while smith is all the way down with the reserves, at 7th.  monroe’s PER=17.8; smith’s is 12.7.
          i won’t cite too many other advanced stats, but for the most part they easily reveal that monroe is the far superior player to smith.  it is not even close.
          better player, younger player, bigger player, smarter player….
          what am i missing here?  on what a@@-backwards planet does any sane team trade the 23 year old while keeping the older, worse player? 
          yes, the line up is screwed up and will continue to complicate matters as the season goes on.  but the idea that you “resolve” the problem by trading such a valuable asset, while keeping the inferior player is just insane.  sorry, but it is.  it makes absolutely no sense.
          and the idea that detroit cannot make the monroe/drummond pairing work is belied by what is happening on the court right in front of our eyes.  it works very well, when utilized properly.  the fact that smith is not an appropriate SF cannot negate the fact that monroe and drummond can easily work together in the same front court. 
          is SA crazy because they start duncan and splitter together? duncan is basically a center and splitter is as slow footed as monroe, yet popovich has found a way to make it work. 
          i had to laugh when you cited boozer as a legit PF.  you must have forgotten most of his playing history, because in college and his first few years, he played center and it was only when he moved on to chicago did he really play more of a PF position.  in cleveland, he played center and all those years in utah, he was basically the center because okur – our buddy, mehmet – played on the perimeter, firing up 3′s.  
          yet chicago makes it work with boozer and noah, and if there is someone who had a worse defensive reputation in the league than boozer, i’d like to know of him.
          there have been so many other instances where two big guys have played together and thrived that it is not even worth talking about it any further.
          but i do love the revisionist history about afflalo.  most fans did not give a hoot and felt that if joe dumped him for nothing, there had to be a reason.  same thing with amir.  i know, because i ranted and raved on a couple of other fan forums and was invariably told to get over it, that afflalo and amir were both end of the bench scrubs who no one would ever hear from again.  it is now funny to see so many fans bemoan the fact that detroit could actually use a player, exactly like him!  
          tw, i lumped the bg/cv/wilcox signings into one grouping because they basically all happened around the same time, though sequentially, CV and BG went first and gobbled up the available cash before joe d made the move for wilcox. don’t think it mattered who was signed first, second or last, or if amir and afflalo were officially dumped to clear space for wilcox.
          finally, i will be extremely surprised if joe does not trade monroe, as signing smith was, imho, an official shot across the bow to monroe, a sign by joe, that he was ready and capable of moving on, if monroe expected a max contract.  considering that it is pretty clear that monroe does, rightfully expect a max contract, and considering joe’s actions, i truly do not see how the entire fiasco is resolved short of trading monroe.
          unless, joe does something truly brilliant, and moves smith before his value tanks, a la ben gordon.

          • Dec 10, 201312:27 am
            by Tim Thielke

            If you get the same return trading Smith or Monroe, absolutely trade Smith. The entire reason to trade Monroe is that you could get significantly more. For Smith, you could get expiring contracts and possibly a minor asset.

  • Dec 9, 201310:17 pm
    by I HATE FRANK

    Reply

    Drummond should have been eastern conference player of the week….robbed

  • Dec 9, 201311:54 pm
    by Jacob

    Reply

    I think that maybe next week we could possibly see a trade. 15th through the 19th. If Joe D was serious about being better, then next week we will see. This team is ok, but lacks good outside shooting and doesn’t play as good of D as I thought we would have with this line up. If we can trade Smith, then do it. If not it looks like we could get the most back in return for Monroe.

    • Dec 10, 201312:10 am
      by Max

      Reply

      I feel like the Pistons won’t have any good options for Monroe and while I agree with Otis that Smith should land less: I ultimately think they will be faced with trading for similarly 3rd class wings if they trade either Monroe or Smith so why not just trade Smith if you can’t get anything approaching equal value for Monroe?  If it’s just about taking the hit for better fit, why trade a genuine young asset who never gets hurt and has always been a good player for a mediocre player who is a better fit?  

      • Dec 10, 20131:01 am
        by Jacob

        Reply

        I just think that we could get more for Monroe than Smith. If the value is equal, trade Smith. I just don’t think this roster can compete with Indiana or Miami. Honestly Miami could be much worse next year but I dont think Riley will let that happen. Otis may be wrong about Monroe. He seems mixed up. Saying Monroe isn’t very good, but at the same time trying to think we will get something more back for him than Smith? Which is it. I just think we could get the same production from Smith at PF as Monroe with way better D and a tad worse shooting. Also I think even though Smith isn’t a great outside shooter, but at PF he would stretch the floor more than Monroe. I’m waiting to get all crazy about any of it, because there is still 5 more days. With all this tanking going on there will be teams who try to get better and teams who try to get worse and relieve cap space. It seems like just sitting around and doing nothing would be a bad idea. Having Smith shooting outside so much like he is right now is dumb. Either trade him or put him in a better situation. If I had to choose I would side with the badboys site and trade Smith. I just don’t know who would want him. When I find teams that might want him(Houston) what would we get back that would even make any sense to trade him. We may just get even worse.

  • Dec 10, 20132:41 am
    by Max

    Reply

    I had a thought.   Weird as it sounds, it might make the most sense to trade Monroe and Smith.  
    For instance, though the Blazers are playing too well right now: Aldridge and Matthews or Batum for Monroe and Smith.   This kind of trade could possibly work with other teams too if they have a good power forward who can shoot with a a wing but no real center so Monroe and Smith can be sold as duo for what the Pistons need.  
    With the Bucks, the package plus whatever could be land some combination of Ilaysova/Henson/Mayo/Butler/Middleton.
    Also, and this is far fetched, but if the Thunder offered Ibaka and Lamb their lineup could feature Westbrook and Durant with Monroe and Smith which is pretty formidable.  Imagine Drummond and Ibaka! 
    Finally, all kinds of trades would be possible in a three way deal.  
     
     
     

    • Dec 10, 20134:02 am
      by gmehl

      Reply

      Max I don’t think I’ve seen you post anything so silly before. Portland would laugh at that deal and then hang up the phone. Milwaukee would hang up the phone because it would ruin there tank job. Oh and seriously a frontline of Drummond and Ibaka wouldn’t really work unless we got a dominant scorer like Durante thrown in the deal. Mind you that front line would be pretty mean looking. I luv Ibaka but just like Dre he can’t set up his own shot.

  • Dec 10, 20136:56 am
    by I HATE FRANK

    Reply

    I’ve never been a huge josh Smith fan…but I was happy that we landed the number 3 FA on the market I’m a strong beliver that there’s nothing wrong with stockpiling talent … and make it work later
     
    Smith numbers and performance on most nights have been disappointing, but he is clearly sacrificing his game for Drummond, Monroe and even Stuckey…yes we all hate his jumper but he needs to take them more than ever, him playing in the paint would have to make either Drummond or Monroe stretch 4′s or 5′s and it’s just not in there games… in Atlanta he had Harford who could step out and make the 17 footer…soo even when the line up in the past had him at sf in Atlanta he was still a versatile offensive threat…
    I’m not against trading Monroe or smith, but I also believe the pistons have sounding unique that has yet to reach its potential, so unless something special is offered I’d stay still ….because if smith ever find his niche we become very special

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