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Rodney Stuckey sticks it to former coach and sometimes foe Lawrence Frank

Detroit Pistons 109 Final
Recap | Box Score
97 Brooklyn Nets
Greg Monroe, PF 34 MIN | 8-12 FG | 2-4 FT | 11 REB | 1 AST | 1 STL | 0 BLK | 1 TO | 18 PTS | +8

Monroe just looked different in this game. Confident. Assertive. Large. He was producing with the same effectiveness he typically does in his good games, but everything just seemed to come more smoothly than usual. That very well could have a lot to do with the Nets, who now trail the Pistons in defensive rating, but Monroe still deserves credit.

Josh Smith, SF 33 MIN | 4-9 FG | 4-8 FT | 8 REB | 3 AST | 3 STL | 0 BLK | 1 TO | 13 PTS | +14

I didn’t like his shot selection, but he made enough of them, defended hard and was active on the glass. … I just re-read that sentence and realized, "but he made enough of them"-pending, that sentence probably works in every Smith post-game writeup.

Andre Drummond, C 27 MIN | 4-6 FG | 1-4 FT | 10 REB | 0 AST | 1 STL | 0 BLK | 2 TO | 9 PTS | -5

Drummond was very active around the offensive basket, both going for offensive rebounds and making himself available for passes. But he didn’t make enough of a defensive impact.

Brandon Jennings, PG 41 MIN | 2-10 FG | 10-10 FT | 2 REB | 10 AST | 1 STL | 0 BLK | 3 TO | 14 PTS | +4

Jennings recently told Anthony Fenech of the Detroit Free Press, "I don’t have any confidence in my shot right now. That’s the reason I’m missing, because there’s just no confidence there.” It was clear Jennings was still hesitant Sunday, passing up shots he’d typically take. And he still took 10 shots! So, that probably says something about his approach to the game. What saved Jennings’ scoring line? Shaun Livingston, who foolishly fouled Jennings on an off-balance long 2-pointer as the shot clock was expiring and then on a 3-pointer, and the Nets committing a defensive three-second violation that got Jennings a free throw and then intentionally fouling with the game clearly decided to get him two more freebies. At least Jennings did a pretty good job of getting his teammates good looks, both in the halfcourt and transition.

Kentavious Caldwell-Pope, SG 24 MIN | 2-10 FG | 0-0 FT | 0 REB | 0 AST | 1 STL | 0 BLK | 0 TO | 5 PTS | +7

I still believe Caldwell-Pope will get past his rookie jitters and find his shooting stroke, even if he has to keep taking a ton of long 2-pointers to build his confidence, which he did Sunday. But until he actually gets past his rookie jitters and finds his shooting stroke, he’s going to receive poor grades.

Tony Mitchell, PF 0 MIN | 0-0 FG | 0-0 FT | 0 REB | 0 AST | 0 STL | 0 BLK | 0 TO | 0 PTS | 0

Made no impact in 25 second of garbage time

Josh Harrellson, PF 11 MIN | 2-4 FG | 0-0 FT | 0 REB | 0 AST | 0 STL | 0 BLK | 0 TO | 4 PTS | +12

Harrellson’s size inside made it easier for his teammates defend aggressively further from the hoop, but he looked slow. That didn’t matter Sunday, though, because Harrellson ran hard all over the court.

Charlie Villanueva, PF 12 MIN | 3-6 FG | 0-0 FT | 3 REB | 0 AST | 0 STL | 2 BLK | 0 TO | 8 PTS | 0

On his first offensive possession, Villanueva posted up 18 feet from the basket because he couldn’t get better positioning. He caught the entry pass (as much a pass to someone 18 feet from the basket qualifies as an entry pass) and promptly whipped around to shoot an airball with nine seconds on the shot clock. But Villanueva Villanuevaed Villanuevaing this game. He actually hustled after loose balls, defended OK and passed willingly. I bet he’ll make the rotation for Detroit’s next game, too.

Kyle Singler, SF 26 MIN | 3-7 FG | 4-6 FT | 6 REB | 0 AST | 0 STL | 1 BLK | 1 TO | 11 PTS | +7

Singler worked hard offensively, and that effort yielded good results. Defensively, he spent a lot of time scrambling to close out on open 3-point shooters, but I don’t think that all on him. The Nets, who made 14-of-26 3-pointers (54 percent), are just the latest team to take advantage of the Pistons’ poor perimeter rotations.

Peyton Siva, PG 1 MIN | 0-0 FG | 0-0 FT | 0 REB | 0 AST | 0 STL | 0 BLK | 0 TO | 0 PTS | -2

Made no impact in 34 second of garbage time

Rodney Stuckey, SG 31 MIN | 10-16 FG | 7-8 FT | 4 REB | 6 AST | 2 STL | 0 BLK | 1 TO | 27 PTS | +15

With Lawrence Frank on the sideline as a Nets’ assistant, Stuckey showed his old coach what he could do when not spotting up in the corner. Stuckey ran pick-and-rolls, drove to the basket, posted up, shot from mid-range, kept the ball moving and then still worked hard on defense. This was the liveliest I’ve seen Stuckey in quite some time.

Maurice Cheeks

The Pistons had lost seven of nine. Their highest-paid player was just demoted to the bench for missing practice. And then they were trailing the woeful Brooklyn Nets, on the road no less, at halftime. Recent Pistons teams would have thrown in the towel facing far less. But not only did the Pistons stick with it in the second half, they came out of the locker room defending hard and running harder. NBA coaches have a lot of responsibilities, but an important one is establishing the right mindset. I liked the Pistons’ mindset very much to start the third quarter, and teams’ play in that part of the game is often tied to the coach.

55 Comments

  • Nov 25, 20136:00 am
    by @GPMasters

    Reply

    Hopefully we can look back on this as a key win in this team’s evolution.
    Up next, 4 home games where we can claw back towards .500 – but only if we maintain the intensity shown in the third quarter.

  • Nov 25, 20136:49 am
    by ScottGD

    Reply

    I agree with your assessment of Drummond, but his woeful FT% showed its ugly head late in the game. Lawrence Frank was ready to exploit Dre’s incompetence in that area of the game mid-way through the 4th quarter. After going 1 for 4 Mo Cheeks wisely took him out for the remainder of the game. Fortunately, his absence from the court in late minutes didn’t have a negative impact on the game, this time. If Dre is going to be the Pistons best player or at least best defensive player he needs to be on the court when his team needs his wares the most. If he doesn’t figure out his troubles at the line he’s just going to be a slightly better DeAndre Jordan. 

  • Nov 25, 20137:36 am
    by Corey

    Reply

    Hard question: if (a big if, admittedly) Stuckey can keep being “good Stuckey” all year, should we try to keep him? It might mean he’s matured, or that Cheeks is the right coach to get through to him. will be interesting to see if he can stay on his game all year. 

    • Nov 25, 20139:56 am
      by Greg

      Reply

      The question is not if we keep him if he plays like he does at the moment, it´s more on what he will demand moneywise. He should not be getting payed more than 5 mio as a sixth man, like Jamaal Crawford. If he gets payed more I would rather trade him while his production is at this level, maybe he could get us a first-rounder or a young talented wing from a contender.

    • Nov 25, 201310:02 am
      by MIKEYDE248

      Reply

      This might be one of the toughest questions of the year.  He has been one of our best players so far this year, but the big question is, can he keep it up?  If he does continue to make an impact all year, will he be able to continue once he signs a new contract or will he go back to being the Stuckey we have all wanted off the team at all costs the last couple of years?

      • Nov 25, 201310:52 am
        by Some Dude

        Reply

        Even if Stuckey signs a new contract with the Pistons. It should only happen at the Pistons price, he he wants too much, let him walk. But if we sign him to a good deal, he can always be traded next year.

        • Nov 25, 20131:38 pm
          by Otis

          Reply

          I hope Greg and MikeyDE are reading this too. And james jones down below. Anyone who’s interested in the question about what to do with Stuckey.
           
          The interesting thing here is that the decision on what to do with Stuckey should be on Joe’s mind constantly as the deadline approaches, and it’s probably the second most important decision facing the franchise. It’s a HUGE decision, given how Stuckey is playing this year. That said, I don’t think the thought ever crosses his mind, and I don’t think there’s a chance in hell the guy gets traded. Joe is worried only about what happens after the season is over. As with years’ past, he’s not concerned with the overall health or future of the franchise. If he were concerned with that, we’d be in much better shape today than we are. And to make matters worse, the team actually looks probable to make the playoffs in a pathetic Eastern conference. If Joe wasn’t going to be a seller at the deadline when we had no hope of making the playoffs, why would he suddenly be interested in making trades that benefit the future NOW? He wouldn’t.
           
          Personally, I think it would be much safer to trade Stuck and Moose rather than face tough decisions about them this summer. But as far as Joe is concerned, he’ll be happy to make those tough decisions, because that means he’ll have kept his job. And if he gets fired they’ll be someone else’s decisions to make, but at least Joe will have lost his job by clawing for every last insignificant win, per his usual strategy.
           
          This is why GMs on the hot seat shouldn’t be allowed to make decisions. And if they’re not allowed to make decisions, they should just be fired already. But Tom Gores doesn’t know that. His first mistake was not firing Joe the moment he got here. His second mistake was not firing Joe after he had an offseason of freedom and literally just resigned all of his free agents, effectively bringing back a team that had already proven to be terrible. The good news is that eventually it becomes harder and harder to really care. It’s Gores’ team and he can flush it down the toilet if he wants.

          • Nov 25, 20133:43 pm
            by Georgio

            Keep smoking that Joe hate weed, Otis, it’s obvious you’re high on something. The Pistons should resign Monroe and Stuckey at reasonable salaries, 10-12 mil for Monroe and 6-8 mil for Stuckey, and keep adding better pieces around them. Good GMs make tough decisions, glad we got one.

          • Nov 25, 20134:16 pm
            by Otis

            Georgio, are you brain dead? 0% of people believe Monroe is getting a contract anywhere near $10-12M. He will be paid so close to the max that he won’t be able to stand all the way up without knocking his head on $15.5M. And Stuckey might, just might get a $6-8M contract, but you’re absolutely running a serious risk that somebody is going to go nuts and give him 3 or 4 years at 10 or 11 mil per. If he finishes the season like he started it, he will NOT take a pay cut.
             
            You, sir, are living in a bizarre fantasy world. I want no part of it. But just to indulge your deranged delusions, let’s say things go perfectly to your dangerously psychotic plan: We lock up Stuckey real quick to a tidy $7M extension, and we sign Moose right away to a sweet $11M deal, and apparently 29 other GMs were stupid enough not to give the guy a bigger offer sheet. Right. So even in this twisted wet dream, where the HELL are the “better” pieces coming from? Your sorry GM will have basically $3 million to play with, and remember in all likelihood we get no draft pick this year. How far is $3 million going to get you? Not much. You’re going to come into the new season with the exact same rotation, only it’s more expensive, and you didn’t add shit. I think we’re done here, G.

    • Nov 25, 201311:21 am
      by jamesjones_det

      Reply

      I personally don’t think so, not unless he is willing to play 6th man and take 6th man money.  I’ll admit he’s played way better than I expected but I’m just not sure he’s worth giving up our flexibility to get a true starter at SG/SF if we don’t move Monroe or Smith first.

  • Nov 25, 20137:44 am
    by domnick

    Reply

    time to kick milwaukee’s ass…
     
    good thing about stuckey… he really showed up… i hope the pistons can retain him if our season ends and getting to the playoffs…

  • Nov 25, 20138:49 am
    by Rich

    Reply

    Harrellson should probably stay in the rotation.
    He stretches the floor on offense and, sad as this is, he looks like the Pistons best man defender in the post at the 4 and 5.  He knows where to be and he’s wide.  That in and of itself makes him better at that than the other options…

    • Nov 25, 20139:25 am
      by @GPMasters

      Reply

      Have really been impressed by him, he doesnt look like your typical end-of-bench big, seems to add a little more.
      Also, well done to Villanueva, he contributed well last night for once. Loved the 2 blocks as well!

    • Nov 25, 20134:40 pm
      by TheBigS

      Reply

      Harrelson is doing what Charlie V should have done, space the floor and play decent enough D to not be the teams worst player

  • Nov 25, 20139:37 am
    by Jens

    Reply

    Thanks Dan for the grades. I 100% agree. I still had very mixed feelings about this game at Brooklyn.
    I still believe this team  CANNOT work. We have to keep in mind, that almost everybody brought his A-game tonight. Sure, Smith can keep himself from taking one or two bad shots, Jennings can hit some more, Drummond can (can he?) hit some free throws….sure. But in General, we needed 8 of 9 Rotation Players to perform above average to beat one of the most unsettled Teams in the league right now. If that roster is more balanced we just might have more margin for error. Actually, we have 3 guards, 1 Forward/wing and the rest is post players. And one of the three guards (you rightfully graded him with an F) shouldn´t even be playing. 3 years ago we had 2 “Quality” Shooting guards with 22 millions in salary divided between them and not much else on the roster. Now we badly Need a starting caliber 2 unless we want to Play Stuckey 45 minutes a game and let him handle starting SG and backup PG.     

    • Nov 25, 201310:06 am
      by Greg

      Reply

      It´s exactly the problem I see too. We need someone to bring his A-Game to stay competitive in a game. On the other hand, if someone on the opponents team has a career night (Jordan Hill), the pistons simply get blown out. joe Johnson had his season high yesterday and again exposed the poor 3-point defense the pistonsb play hitting 8-10 from behind the arc. But without Lopez, Williams, Kirilenko and Terry this was just a must win for Detroit. Had KG ttipped in his 3 missed wide open tip-ins the Pistons would have lost probably.

      • Nov 25, 201310:57 am
        by Some Dude

        Reply

        Pistons won by 12, a couple tips-ins wouldn’t change the outcome.

        • Nov 25, 20131:43 pm
          by Otis

          Reply

          I generally agree with this, but the Nets were in it late and probably could have pulled out the win if they’d gotten a few more breaks like that. I mean, sure it was 12 points, but that includes late game foul shots as Bklyn was trying to extend the game. If they’d gotten a little momentum on their side a bit earlier, it could have gone very differently. Not that they deserved to win. They were pitiful and missing four key players. But 12 points doesn’t tell the whole story. This game was up in the air at the end.

    • Nov 25, 201312:17 pm
      by jamesjones_det

      Reply

      Crazy thing is we threw in Middleton with the Milwaukee trade and he’s been shooting the ball well from distance this year.  It kills me when we throw in these guys (Middleton/Afflalo) only to find out we could have really used them a year or two later.
       
      I’m not saying either of these two guys fix our problems but they could certainly help.

      • Nov 25, 20131:48 pm
        by MIKEYDE248

        Reply

        Afflalo was one of the one’s I really regretting.  I really like him when he was here.  I thought he would be a good rotation player early on along with player really good defense.

      • Nov 25, 20131:48 pm
        by Otis

        Reply

        Middleton, eh. Shrug. I liked him more than Knight, but I don’t think I’ll ever lose sleep over him. I liked the trade, and I still think Brandon Jennings has a lot more to offer than Knight, so I thought Middleton was a fair gamble to balance out that swap.
         
        Afflalo, on the other hand, was one of Joe’s most underrated catastrophes. Dude looked great when he got here, worked his ass off, was constantly improving. And we gave him up for as close to literally nothing as humanly possible. We got a mil in cap space out of it, to go sign Chris Wilcox. And we dumped Amir for a similar sliver of cap space. Those trades were godawful, especially Afflalo. Once things started falling apart in 2009 we would have been so much better off simply by having those guys around instead of the ghost of Chris Wilcox.

  • Nov 25, 201310:05 am
    by MIKEYDE248

    Reply

    I was really impressed to see the 3rd quarter the Pistons put in yesterday.  Seems like the first time in years that they won a 3rd quarter.  Normally they seemed like they were usually in the games at the half, then got blown away in the 3rd when the other teams made adjustments and they figured, why change what’s working.

  • Nov 25, 201310:56 am
    by alex

    Reply

    what’s any ones opinion on KCP?

    • Nov 25, 201311:13 am
      by Some Dude

      Reply

      KCP is doing as well as rookie should, only been 12 games, he’ll get better. He’s one of the leading scorers among rookies, and also minutes played. His shot hasn’t been falling, but neither of the other rookies. They’re all struggling with their shooting. But at least KCP plays D.

    • Nov 25, 201311:30 am
      by jamesjones_det

      Reply

      I typically give rookies 20-30 games before judging too harshly but at this point it seems his shot is so consistently bad that it’s hard to image that it will improve an any meaningful way this year.  Defensively he does a good job most nights but given we need to desperately stretch the floor it’s hard not to see him as the weak point on offense.
       
      There is still a lot of time but if he doesn’t improve enough by the trade deadline I think this team will need to seriously look at trading for a starting SG that can shot the ball if the want to make a serious run (or even if the can).  Right now it’s hard to see who on this team could take his spot at SG, we could put Stuckey there but I feel better with Stuckey coming off the bench.

      • Nov 25, 201311:37 am
        by alex

        Reply

        i agree with both of you, I think we need to consider a trade soon before its too late and maybe even trade stuckey. Stuckey has been impressive lately and we should see what we can get for him while his stock is high. stuckey has been great off the bench, but I would like to see what he can offer for the starting unit. He plays good defense and moves the ball around. that’s what the pistons need. better ball movement which will or should get better looks.

      • Nov 25, 201311:55 am
        by jamesjones_det

        Reply

        Looked up some fun stats on his shooting just to make sure it wasn’t just my perception:
         
        Amongst rookies he’s 31st in overall shooting percentage (out of 38 that are playing)
        23 in 3pt percentage overall (out of 38), however 8 players have yet to attempt a 3pt shot.
        He is 9th out of 12 in overall FG percentage and 3pt percentage of all drafted shooting guards.
        He is 3rd overall in FG attempts
         
        Some other fun stats:
        He’s 6th overall in minutes played
        He’s 19 out of 38 in rebounding, 5th amongst the 12 SGs (not bad for an SG and a team with 3 big rebounders)
        12th in assist (3rd amongst other rookie SGs)
        3rd in steals (2nd amongst other rookie SGs)
        tied for last in blocks
        He has the fewest turnovers of any rookie.  This is an awesome stat for a rookie playing 20+ a game.
        Best steal to TO ratio of any rookie
         
         
        Overall he’s playing fairly well amongst his peers but his offensive stats are near the bottom.

        • Nov 25, 20131:09 pm
          by alex

          Reply

          I hope to see him get to the level everyone excepted him to be on regards to shooting, I do like his defense and his confidence. just hope his confidence doesn’t hurt Detroit when the game is on the line.

  • Nov 25, 201311:59 am
    by apa8ren9

    Reply

    We have to let the year play out to see if Stuckey can finally stay consistent for more than a few games or if KCP can grow into the role as the floor stretcher and find his shot.   I would not expect a trade or personnel move until the end of the year because there are just too many variables right now and you have to see how the team looks on a horrible night (Golden State game) and how they look when everything is working – That hasnt come close to happening yet.  Cheeks seems to be giving everyone a fair shot at stretching the floor as a shooter but no one has yet responded.  And Cheeks has to tighten up their defensive rotations.  So we have to see more games.  I think they will be ok and make the playoffs.

    • Nov 25, 20132:30 pm
      by Otis

      Reply

      This is where you’re so wrong it’s scary and dangerous. You can’t just let the year play out and then decide on what to do with guys whose contracts are up. That’s a recipe for complete disaster, especially considering nobody in Detroit has championship aspirations this year. If you let the year play out, you’re likely to end the season with some extremely difficult or unfavorable decisions. You can’t just pretend all things are equal and it doesn’t matter when you make these decisions since the guys are under contract through the end of the season.
       
      Assume you like Stuckey, you like Monroe. In a perfect world you’d like to keep them. But what else are you going to be able to add to the team if you keep them around? Greg’s cap hold is over $10M and Stuckey’s is nearly $13M. That leaves you with no cap space whatsoever until you work out their contracts. Most Monroe pushers would say the team should renounce Stuckey and Villanueva, then add help on the wings before working out a new contract for Greg (better to settle his contract last because his annual salary will certainly exceed his cap hold; pray to GOD Stuckey’s doesn’t if you plan on keeping him). But if you renounce your rights to Stuckey, you can’t go over the cap to re-sign him. So basically you’re handcuffed. If you want to keep both of them, you’re simply bringing back this same team (minus Villanueva) next year. And heck, it might actually even make sense to re-sign Charlie if the price is right, since you can go over the cap to do it and it won’t really affect anything else.
       
      The team actually looked pretty decent at Bklyn, but that team is in shambles and missing literally half of its key players. They’re loaded with veterans who can dominate a game, and it makes sense that they’ll figure it out eventually, but right now they can’t beat anyone. They’re one of the worst teams in the league. It’s easy for fans to turn the page and get all excited about a win over a team that was supposed to be good, but we still don’t have a win against a quality opponent, and we’ve got a bunch of losses against the types of teams we need to be able to beat in order to keep this bizarre experiment going, like the Hawks and the decimated Lakers.
       
      Even if you like this team and you think they look great and are going to win five, six, seven championships… you still have to get Stuckey to agree to an extension. You can’t force him to stay. You run the risk of him signing elsewhere for more money than you can match. And by the time the dust has settled on Stuckey’s new contract, you may have already been forced to match a contract for Monroe, and that’s basically going to cut your available cap space in half. This team could be in a whole mess of trouble if they wait that long to make these decisions. Nearly everyone who advocates this Jumbo roster, or keeping Monroe, agrees we need to add talent. Specifically shooting and wing players. In order to keep Stuckey and Moose AND add significant help to the perimeter, you’d have to agree VERY quickly to a cheap contract for Stuckey (and it’s a paradox because if he plays well enough all season to warrant an extension, he’s not coming cheap and we won’t be the only ones interested), then quickly agree to another cheap contract for wing help, then settle up with Moose. I don’t see it happening. And everyone (fans, front office, etc.) should be thinking long and hard about the decisions we’re going to face if we sit on this team through the deadline.
       
      Much safer to cash in on Stuckey and Moose at the deadline and have some REAL flexibility this summer to add the kind of talent we need to build around what’s left.

      • Nov 25, 20133:13 pm
        by Tim Thielke

        Reply

        Stuckey’s trade value has to be about as high as it’s going to get right now. I see no reason to wait for the deadline. If you can get a decent return for him, do it now.

        Monroe is trickier. I disagree that he has a low ceiling. It’s not as high as Drummond’s, but he is at least a prime Boozer/Jefferson-caliber player. And his D has been gradually improving as long as he has been in the league. His sheer size gives him a lot of upside in that regard. I could easily see him being a healthy Andrew Bynum type.

        If you can get a fantastic return for Monroe, go for it. But there just aren’t a lot of great trade matches out there. I’m guessing Detroit would take a major loss in any Monroe trade. And honestly, I don’t think his trade value is much higher now that it will be next year. Anyone who trades for him knows he’s about to get a big raise.

        I know Monroe/Drummond/Smith is not the best fit ever, but I’d have to get at least 80-90 cents on the dollar to give up one of those guys.

        • Nov 25, 20133:29 pm
          by Ryan

          Reply

          There are two players who start for us who we ought to have on the trade block along with Rodney Stuckey and they’re the guys we recently acquired. Josh Smith and Brandon Jennings will never be starters on a team competing for a title and we need to get whatever value we can for them. Of course we’ve a little time to play around and see if we can’t maximize the return we get but they both need to go at some point because they’re not ever going to help us with a title by staying here.

          If we can work out some kind of Josh Smith and Rodney Stuckey deal or deals then that’s step one. We could either get a decent small forward back and push for the playoffs or get picks back and maybe keep our lottery pick this year. Marcus Smart would answer a whole ton of our problems.

        • Nov 25, 20133:56 pm
          by Otis

          Reply

          Amen. I wouldn’t wait until the deadline either. Just saying that’s the last chance we’ll get to cash in on him. Same with Moose. I’d rather trade him now as a matter of preference, rather than wait until there’s 50 games of proof that this team needs a trade. If we’re going to trade Moose, the sooner the better.
           
          80-90 cents on the dollar? Not for me, because you sure aren’t getting that once he’s extended. Trade him now and you’re at least giving your trade partner a chance to evaluate him a bit. And if they end up deciding he’s not a great fit, they could at least hold out hope for getting something out of him in a sign-and-trade. Personally, I don’t think anyone will give up TOO much for him in a S & T, but you never know. It’s not the craziest notion that maybe they could at least get a little something for him if he doesn’t work out. It could still be a worthwhile deadline move for the other guys.
           
          You say he won’t have much less value next season, but I disagree. For one thing, maybe this team holds out hope that they can keep him for less than the max. To be honest, if I’m the Phoenix Suns (or whoever) and I make it crystal clear that I traded for Monroe and will keep him at any cost, come hell or high water, you might well scare teams away from putting in an offer. Detroit, on the other hand, has at a minimum fostered the perception that they’re not that eager to give him a gigantic contract or they probably would have done it by now. Between the struggles of this terrible Big lineup and the fact that we’re not hurting for big men, I don’t think we can scare anyone off with the perception that we’ll match anything. Plus, you’re always going to take a value hit of SOME kind once you attach someone to a big contract, and going back at it for yet ANOTHER failed season of this big man experiment is only going to hurt his value. If you’re extending him with one eye towards trading him down the road, it’s a bad idea. Just don’t do it. You’ll get more now, and you’ll have FAR more flexibility because you can mix-and-match contracts to make the trade fit the cap. If you start trading him next year, you’re going to have to work around that bloated contract.
           
          I swear to god I’m talking to smart, thoughtful people here, but I feel like I’m one of like two people who even gets it. If you’re not 100% married to this guy and ready to have his babies, now is the time to get out.

  • Nov 25, 20132:30 pm
    by pistons moribund

    Reply

    A good win against a horrible team doesnt amount to much.  at least they won.  Same old same old, they cannot depend the pick and role for some reason.  Bullwinkle doesnt show or does a half show and then proceeds to stand around picking his nose while the other big roles to the basket and someone has to switch over leaving either the big to go to the basket or kick out for and outside shot.  Thank god they missed everything.  That is why this team will never win anything or compete against a good team, they cant guard the pick and role.  Even Dre always looks clueless and doesnt know where to rotate over to while always leaving someone open.  Its not that the pistons played well, its because the other team is really awful.  That some of the worst basketball I have seen in ages, a bit like last year actually.  They will always leave Bullwinkle open because he has no confidence in the outside shot and with any other defensive centers, he will not be able to get to the rim which means we will never win a championship unless he expands his game and magically becomes more athletic.  What he should do is stop complaining after every shot that he was hit.  ugh, or maybe he should take of his skirt and just play.  or maybe he should go over to the wnba.
    Cant figure out whether the defensive play is because of coaching issues or player issues.  But becoming more and more convinced that Bullwinkle has to be traded in for something else.  He might be a cog for the playoffs but not for a team that wants to get a ring.
    Kind of like a segway player.

    • Nov 25, 20132:40 pm
      by Otis

      Reply

      The decision to trade Greg should be so easy my dear old granny could do it. Option A: Trade him at the deadline for a fantastic bounty of perimeter help, draft picks, and excellence. Option B: Keep his unathletic ass for eternity and pay him infinity million dollars to be unspectacular and take us nowhere.
       
      If this guy was the answer, he’d be fighting for position in the post and demanding the ball, possession after possession, putting the team on his back and making winning plays all the time. Period. Willing us to victories. He’s not that guy. We were very lucky to land him in the draft. Time to cash out and let someone else pay top dollar for his low ceiling.

      • Nov 25, 20133:13 pm
        by Tim Thielke

        Reply

        Who is giving up this fantastic bounty of which you speak?

        • Nov 25, 20133:38 pm
          by Otis

          Reply

          Somebody. That much I guarantee. If you think there aren’t any teams who would love to get their hands on Greg Monroe and his Bird rights, I just don’t know what to tell you. I mean, if you look around the leagues at teams who could REALLY use a guy like that and teams who don’t really need someone like Greg, the Pistons (with Drummond and Smith in tow, and with Harrellson looking like a decent backup so far) we’ve got to be damn near at the top of the list of teams who shouldn’t go out of their way to hold onto him.

          • Nov 25, 20133:52 pm
            by Georgio

            Don’t dodge the question, WHO?

          • Nov 25, 20134:03 pm
            by Otis

            1) I’ve never heard of Georgio, so I’m not inclined to bow to your commands.
             
            2) I do not have access to Josephine Dumars’ rolodex, so I simply cannot answer that question. Literally nobody could give you a specific answer. If you think nobody would trade for Monroe and give up anything of value, you need to put down the pipe. He’s a 15 & 9 machine who costs like $4M, and his Bird rights come along with him. He’s very desirable. If he was made available at the deadline, he would probably be the wettest, juiciest ticket in town.

          • Nov 25, 20134:24 pm
            by Tim Thielke

            Lots of teams would love to have him. But I don’t know how many teams would want to have him in exchange for a “fantastic bounty”, unless that bounty consists of a late first rounder or two and a meh prospect.

            That’s the problem. There just aren’t a ton of good Monroe trades out there. If you’re getting back a “proven” wing player, he’ll overpaid (Gay), injury-prone (Gordon, Gallinari), old (Deng) or not a star (Green, Evans, Mayo). Monroe won’t fetch, George, Harden, Durant, James, Anthony, Wade, or Kobe. Beal could make sense, but I don’t think the Wizards agree to that swap.

            Monroe could probably bring back a very unproven but high upside prospect like Porter or McLemore (maaaaybe Oladipo). I could actually get on board with such a move, but are you really willing to swallow that much risk of trading a star for nothing? You may be able to get back a draft pick for Monroe, but it will have protections, and there are only a handful of teams liable to hold a pick in the range of fantastic prospects anyway.

            Perhaps the most parallel assets out there are Hayward or Turner. Both would present the same free agency hangups (except that it’s not an easy call to match any offer) but neither is as valuable as Monroe, and I don’t know what Utah or Philly would be willing to throw in. If Utah will give up Hayward plus a pick with only top 3 protection, yeah, I’d jump on that. But I don’t see it happening. Ditto for Philly and Turner, but I’d be less excited because Turner is only a mediocre shooter.

            So again, what bounty do you propose receiving for Monroe?

          • Nov 25, 20134:37 pm
            by Tim Thielke

            “I do not have access to Josephine Dumars’ rolodex”

            1) What the hell is wrong with you that you would feminize people’s names to insult them? That’s some misogynistic bullshit; and if we were having this conversation face to face, I would be sorely tempted to hit you.

            2) You know what other teams are in the league, so just imagine that they’re all potential trade partners, because, well, they are. So you very much do have access to Dumars’ rolodex as it were. The entire point of my question was to challenge you to come up with a few potential trades that would actually satisfy you and are within the realm of possibly being accepted by the other team. It’s harder than you might think.

          • Nov 25, 20135:12 pm
            by Otis

            As for the important parts: I’ll take a quality wing prospect and a draft pick. I’ll take a trade centered around a good-looking draft pick. If you could get Porter, McLemore or Oladipo I think you’d be seriously deranged not to do it. I would make that trade without a shred of conscience and live with the consequences. Now keep in mind that I’m patient enough to wait until the deadline, so if through 50 games this mess still isn’t working, that’s an easy call. Welcome home, Mr. Oladipo. Hayward plus sweeteners sounds great too. I know you typed that blurb to sort of demonstrate that there aren’t many possibilities, but all of that sounds great to me. I hope Monroe goes somewhere else and has a terrific career, but I just don’t see it happening here sandwiched between Andre and Josh and without any real means of adding perimeter talent around them. It’s not hard to come up with trades that make sense for Moose. I’ll take 75 cents on the dollar, and maybe a little less. Keep firing your suggestions at me, and I’ll keep green lighting them. You can’t possibly believe Monroe wouldn’t be one of the hottest commodities out there if he was put out on the open market. There isn’t even the slightest chance you believe that.
             
            As for the unimportant stuff: My great grandmother’s name was Josephine, God rest her soul, and anyone will tell you there was nothing feminine about her. This is 100% true. And if you’d strike someone over ANY casual insult they’d make to a third party, you need some serious anger management training. I joke around a lot, but both of these points are completely true.

          • Nov 25, 20135:27 pm
            by Tim Thielke

            I don’t care one bit what you grandmother’s name is. I know you weren’t using it to compliment Dumars. So unless you’re trying to imply that you were trying to insult Dumars by saying he was like your grandmother (which would seem messed up, but I didn’t know her), you were absolutely trying to insult him by insinuating that he was feminine. The connection to your own family only makes this worse, not better.

            And I am perfectly capable of controlling my anger. I choose to be angry with people who consider implying that a person is of some gender, race, sexuality, religion or whatever else is a valid way of insulting that person. That is unacceptable and warrants being immediately and unapologetically being called out.

            I don’t care that you insult Dumars. I care that you think calling him a woman qualifies as an insult! This is no different than if you said Dumars was a crappy GM because he is gay or latino.

            And lambasting such misogynistic drivel is most assuredly important. That actually affects people’s lives, sports are just a fun diversion.

          • Nov 25, 20135:31 pm
            by Tim Thielke

            A quality wing prospect AND a draft pick? Detroit’s not going to get that. They could probably get one of those prospects OR a draft pick. And the draft pick won’t be top 5, the Pistons would be lucky if it were top 10.

      • Nov 25, 20133:15 pm
        by MIKEYDE248

        Reply

        Unfortunately Jennings and Smith both think that they are that guy, but both tend to miss most of their shots.  So you want to get rid of their best player to keep two less effective offensive players.

        • Nov 25, 20133:43 pm
          by Otis

          Reply

          I get what you’re saying, but if Greg really IS the man, he’d throw his weight around in that locker room and on the floor and make this HIS team. God knows he’d have pretty much everyone’s blessing, especially if he could actually get the job done and will the team to quality wins. If he’s going to defer to “lesser” players like BJ and Smith, you seriously think he’s the answer and needs to be retained at all costs? Not bloody likely. Neither one of us likes that Smith takes a lot of bad shots and generally tries to do too much, but at least he’s trying to take charge. Every game that passes by without Greg taking charge is more evidence that he’s not “the man.”
           
          Also, I’ve said it before but apparently it bears repeating: You aren’t likely to get much value for Smith or Jennings. You don’t like them? Take it up with Joe. He’s the one who wanted them more than anyone and paid them more than anyone else would. Monroe has legit value. If you can unload one of the other guys, it’ll be a salary dump. If you unload Moose, you’ll get assets.

          • Nov 25, 20134:51 pm
            by TheBigS

            I agree with what you are saying. If Moose really wanted to be this teams leader and a new contract, he would step up and at least try to play tougher and more physically. And right now, he is just not performing at a contract-year level. If anyone, Stuckey is playing like we have all wanted for years and is looking better than Monroe right now

          • Nov 25, 20134:52 pm
            by MIKEYDE248

            But would your assets equal what you are loosing in Monroe?  Probably not.  Then you are tied down with Smith, Jennings and another player or players with less to offer than Monroe.  How will that improve the team?

          • Nov 25, 20135:27 pm
            by Otis

            @TheBigS: Glad you see the light. People act like other guys on the roster are the problem and Moose is the solution, but the man gets his touches. Moose touches the ball more than anyone on the team except the PG. He’s just not being effective. He’s deferring at the elbow too much instead of knocking down jumpers or getting down low and calling for it. He’s not the answer. And I agree that Stuckey is looking like a real baller. I’ve been down on the guy since his second season, and it actually looks like he might have figured it out. Which is potentially dangerous, since he’s shown flashes before. Also, he’s unrestricted so if we decide we do want to keep him, it might still be impossible. Very tough decisions facing this team in February, and possibly July.
             
            @MikeyDE: It’s not a zero sum game when it comes to the exchange of talent. We can replace Monroe with a “lesser” player and still end up with a better overall team. Let’s say for argument’s sake that it’s Gordon Hayward plus a sweetener. He’ll be our #1 scoring option, he’ll spread the floor, make plays, defend the perimeter. Smith can slide to PF, his stronger position, where he and Andre can be one of the best rim protecting duos. Trading Monroe doesn’t “tie you down” to Jennings or Smith or anyone else; you could argue that it makes Drummond less expendable, but I think we all agree Dre is here to stay regardless. You’re just not going to get the most out of any of our big men by keeping them all together, and if the alternative is keeping Moose on a max contract so that he can be our second best center and the team can continue to have chemistry issues by building around ill-fitting pieces, then I don’t really even need that close to an equal return for him. A trade makes sense without TOO much regard to the package he’d fetch. Don’t get me wrong, I’m sure he’ll fetch quite a lot. But I’m not worried about equal return. If we’re that stubborn about letting talent go, it’s like cutting off our nose to spite our face, and we’ll have a mismatched underachieving team for eternity.

  • Nov 25, 20133:37 pm
    by L Boogie

    Reply

    I think we are seeing a disinterested Josh Smith; yeah, he got the big contract, but he is not playing up to it, he is tossing up bricks left and right, instead of attacking the rim; he looks like he does not have a back to basket game AT ALL, his body language says something is going wrong, maybe it was the benching, but something seems off, like he is disinterested, there is no passion or intensity from him or anyone; and Jennings lost confidence in his shot, GIVE ME A BREAK, here is a guy who loves to pop off at the mouth at the drop of a dime ( and get punched in it, mind you) lacks confidence?????? he is passive becuz he is afraid that everyone will start saying he is shooting too much, well we need balance do both. Aughhh, am I the only one who see this is a distraction in the making???

    • Nov 25, 20135:15 pm
      by pistons moribund

      Reply

      its hard to be interested in LOSING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  • Nov 25, 20135:19 pm
    by DetroitP

    Reply

    Let them play it out and see what happens, not enough time.  Idk whats up with jennings the dude just doesn’t look right out there.  If KCP and Kyle and Stuck could all shoot somewhat good percentages we would look like a different team

    • Nov 25, 20135:30 pm
      by Otis

      Reply

      Sigh. Right. If Jennings was an All-Star we’d look different. If Monroe had a deadly midrange jumper he’d be unstoppable. These players are who they are. KCP is a rookie. You can’t count on him. Singler is a second rounder. Any production you get out of him at all is basically a bonus. It’s not like we have a roster built on proven players who aren’t matching their career averages. We’re just crossing our fingers and hoping to get contributions from players we can’t expect to count on. I’m all about “letting it play out” until the deadline, but you can’t wait all season to address these decisions.

      • Nov 25, 20135:41 pm
        by DetroitP

        Reply

        Not at all, but Dre and Moose are still young.  Hibbert took a long time to develop.  I still think these two will get better (obviously Dre will but people saying Moose is what he is I don’t agree with.)  This is his first year playing the PF.  I don’t really know what the next step is with this team and honestly don’t think anyone does.  In the next month the picture will become more clear.  If somehow we could do a Moose Beal deal thatd be the only one I would like.  They need a legit big, NO nene is not legit.  And that would work for both parties.  But speculating trades is like the weather man, no clue what the hell were talking about.

      • Nov 25, 20135:44 pm
        by DetroitP

        Reply

        And I just can’t figure out Jennings, the guy has good vision, has good handles, i don’t get it.  He needs to loose that Compton mentality

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