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Pistons play like turkeys, get gobbled up by Bulls

Chicago Bulls 99 Final
Recap | Box Score
79 Detroit Pistons
Greg Monroe, PF 22 MIN | 2-5 FG | 1-2 FT | 3 REB | 1 AST | 2 STL | 0 BLK | 2 TO | 5 PTS | -12

Monroe wasn’t imposing his will in any way. So, when Maurice Cheeks realized Detroit’s three-big lineup couldn’t cover the mid-range well enough against Chicago (see more in the Cheeks section), Monroe became the big to sit. Monroe’s 22 minutes are by far a season low, and that’s what he deserved tonight. Hopefully, the extra rest has him in peak form Friday.

Josh Smith, SF 34 MIN | 6-12 FG | 0-4 FT | 11 REB | 3 AST | 0 STL | 1 BLK | 4 TO | 13 PTS | -17

He struggled to guard Luol Deng (27 points on 11-of-17 shooting), but Smith was fine defensively when matched up with Chicago’s bigs. Smith had some nice offensive moves, including a behind-the-back pass to give Greg Monroe a layup. But the flash was tarnished by Smith forcing a few too many bad shots and dangerous passes.

Andre Drummond, C 39 MIN | 5-10 FG | 0-2 FT | 11 REB | 0 AST | 2 STL | 0 BLK | 2 TO | 10 PTS | -20

Drummond covered a lot of ground defensively and was only occasionally successful. Is he playing his assignment in the Pistons’ aggressive defense, or is he getting out of position? I’d like to see him stay home more often, allowing others to apply pressure. Offensively, the Pistons have to get Drummond the ball more in the halfcourt. He’s too valuable to shoot only 10 times if most of the attempts come in transition or off offensive rebounds, as was the case tonight.

Brandon Jennings, PG 33 MIN | 5-13 FG | 1-1 FT | 1 REB | 4 AST | 1 STL | 0 BLK | 2 TO | 12 PTS | -17

In the game’s first seven minutes, Jennings was 3-of-3 for eight points. So, he forced the mother of all heat-check 3-pointers. Of course, it missed, and Jennings’ wasted only one possession attempting to prove the research of Sandy Weil. I suppose that could have been worse. After that, Jennings settled into his typical, but not extreme, poor shot selection. Defensively, Jennings is establishing himself as someone who can be an absolute pest on the ball and in passing lanes, but someone who can get lost in team defense.

Kentavious Caldwell-Pope, SG 19 MIN | 0-4 FG | 0-0 FT | 2 REB | 1 AST | 3 STL | 0 BLK | 1 TO | 0 PTS | -6

Every other Pistons starter made a shot in the game’s first four-and-a-half minutes, so Caldwell-Pope faded into the background. He can’t be that fragile. Passable defense – at times – saves Caldwell-Pope from failing on a night his offense ranged from passive to putrid.

Tony Mitchell, PF 2 MIN | 0-0 FG | 0-2 FT | 2 REB | 0 AST | 0 STL | 0 BLK | 0 TO | 0 PTS | +2

Getting offensive rebounds is a nice first step, but now Mitchell must improve on what he does after that. Missing a pair of free throws is not the answer, and neither is falling while losing his balance. But that’s why Mitchell plays in these moments: To get more comfortable on the court and gain composure.

Josh Harrellson, PF 8 MIN | 2-3 FG | 0-0 FT | 1 REB | 0 AST | 1 STL | 0 BLK | 0 TO | 4 PTS | -4

Harrellson is adept at using his big frame to create creases in the post, and he’s not afraid to bang inside defensively. But when opposing bigs use speed moves on him, he’s in trouble.

Jonas Jerebko, PF 11 MIN | 1-3 FG | 0-0 FT | 0 REB | 1 AST | 1 STL | 0 BLK | 0 TO | 2 PTS | -1

Jerebko played non-descript enough that this game won’t hurt his case for playing time, but it won’t be the impetus for his return to the rotation, either. Jerebko staring at the ceiling after missing a layup late summed up the night for the Pistons.

Charlie Villanueva, PF 4 MIN | 0-1 FG | 0-0 FT | 0 REB | 0 AST | 0 STL | 0 BLK | 1 TO | 0 PTS | +4

When he entered the game in the second quarter, Villanueva played as if he knew he had a rotation spot. Unlike many nights, he didn’t immediately force his shot in a bid to prove his worthiness. Then suddenly, Villanueva tried to cross over Joakim Noah, who stole the ball, and then forced a 3-pointer at the next opportunity. He didn’t play in the second half.

Luigi Datome, SF 2 MIN | 2-2 FG | 0-0 FT | 0 REB | 0 AST | 0 STL | 0 BLK | 0 TO | 4 PTS | +2

Datome made both his shots in the closing moments of garbage time, but to be persnickety, both were long 2s that should have been 3s. But Datome was not aware enough of where he was on the court and set up just inside the arc. He also played tough defense on the perimeter to force a turnover.

Kyle Singler, SF 22 MIN | 1-1 FG | 0-0 FT | 4 REB | 0 AST | 0 STL | 1 BLK | 1 TO | 2 PTS | -14

Beside putting back an airballed Harrellson 3-pointer, Singler had only one notable offensive play – and it didn’t count. He got up court in a hurry, spotted up beyond the arc and made a 3-pointer. But he stepped out of bounds on the sideline before the shot. Someone check his glasses. Singler was involved so little offensively because he was working his tail off to do what Smith couldn’t: Defend Luol Deng. Singler had the best results of any Piston on Deng, and the second-year small forward might be positioning himself for a bigger role. If Cheeks ever brings one of the starting bigs off the bench, I’d be shocked if Singler doesn’t move into the starting lineup.

Will Bynum, PG 15 MIN | 1-7 FG | 0-0 FT | 1 REB | 0 AST | 1 STL | 1 BLK | 1 TO | 2 PTS | -3

The offense just flowed really poorly when he was in the game. Bynum didn’t shoot well and missed pass openings.

Rodney Stuckey, SG 29 MIN | 9-16 FG | 7-8 FT | 2 REB | 2 AST | 0 STL | 1 BLK | 1 TO | 25 PTS | -14

It was once a huge deal whenever Stuckey dunked. Tonight, he dunked twice, including this hammer. He balanced those slams with a strong mid-range game, too. Stuckey was active on defense, but sometimes that was only because he had to after getting out of position.

Maurice Cheeks

The Bulls made 15-of-20 mid-range shots (75 percent), an incredible stat for two reasons. 1. League average from that range is just 40 percent. 2. It didn’t seem fluky the Bulls shot so well from there, because they were so open. As, I’ve mentioned before, Smith, Monroe and Drummond lack the foot speed to cover as much ground outside the paint as a frontcourt collectively should. Cheeks adjusted by going to more two-big lineups, primarily sitting Monroe. But the bigs weren’t the only issue. If the Pistons are going to play an aggressive defense, they’ll likely allow more than their share of open shots. That’s OK, at least in theory, because an aggressive defense can lead to more forced turnovers and, theoretically, more transition opportunities and a better offense. If the Pistons are going to grant open shots, I’m fine with mid-range looks to frontcourt players. That’s still better than allowing shots at the rim and 3-pointers. Taj Gibson especially took advantage by scoring 23 points on 11-of-13 shooting, getting many open looks from mid-range. Those mid-range makes were a huge reason the Bulls won tonight, but do it all over again, and I still might cede many of those attempts. Cheeks picked the right poison. The Bulls just had the antidote tonight.

62 Comments

  • Nov 28, 20137:38 am
    by Tangen

    Reply

    This post looks bad in chrome. About 20% of right side is cut off.

    • Nov 28, 20138:09 am
      by Tom Y.

      Reply

      In Firefox too, must not be browser-related.

    • Nov 28, 20139:30 am
      by Clint in Flint

      Reply

      I use Chrome and Ubuntu and part of it is missing.

  • Nov 28, 20139:41 am
    by mshansky

    Reply

    in safari too

  • Nov 28, 201310:07 am
    by @GPMasters

    Reply

    Pretty sure Mo Cheeks coached this post… its broken

    • Nov 28, 20133:36 pm
      by TheBigS

      Reply

      Hahahaha. One of the funniest things I have seen in a while 

  • Nov 28, 201310:08 am
    by Had Enough of These

    Reply

    You’re going to blame Datome for spotting up inside the line? On the first one sure, I guess I’ll give you that, because his feet were literally barely over the line. But on the second? He came off a baselibe cut ane got the ball in the short corner for a jumper. He is a shooter: we PAY him to SHOOT the ball, and guess what? He made both of them! I get so sick of reading these posts done by someone who as I can visibly see did not play or experience enough basketball firsthand to actually understand ins and outs of the game. Dude got in for two damn minutes and SWISHED both shots! Did you really expect him to go out of his way to make a three? He only got in for garbage time, dude was just trying to make an impression in the limited minutes he got. Get off your high horse, Feldman.

  • Nov 28, 201310:57 am
    by Dan Feldman

    Reply

    Should be fixed now. Sorry about that. I think the YouTube video embed was causing issues. So, you’ll have to click through to see Stuckey’s dunk.

  • Nov 28, 201311:09 am
    by T Casey

    Reply

    I’ve been a bit disappointed by KCP’s offense as a starter. I like the fact that he’s getting minutes, but he’s gonna have to start knocking down some shots to justify Cheeks moving him up in the lineup. His mechanics looks sharp so I’m hoping it’s still a matter o him still trying to find his groove in the offense.

  • Nov 28, 201312:45 pm
    by Brandon Knight

    Reply

    Why don’t the Pistons trade Rodney Stuckey for Luol Deng. He would be a huge addition for the Pistons. And off course get rid of Greg Monroe for a quality shooting guard. Jeff Green? 

    • Nov 28, 20132:43 pm
      by Jon

      Reply

      jeff green is a combo forward

  • Nov 28, 20131:14 pm
    by WishuWould

    Reply

    I thought about that trade, but with rose hurt and who knows with two bum knees.  They wont trade him straight up for stuckey.  He would make there team awesome though.  

  • Nov 28, 20131:23 pm
    by WishuWould

    Reply

    Monroe for Marcin Gortat.  It would solve every big straight destroying monroe.  Its a tough sell because everyone knows monroe cant run, jump or defend.

  • Nov 28, 20131:30 pm
    by Jacob

    Reply

    It’s becoming more clear that this team isn’t going to work.
     

  • Nov 28, 20132:12 pm
    by frankie d

    Reply

    Hard to believe the insanity that is starting to flow from supposed pistons’ fans.
    While it was absolutely predictable that monroe was going to suffer and be the scapegoat because of the ridiculous acquisition of smith, it is still shocking that fans lack perspective on what has happened to monroe.
    And what his true market value should be on the open market.
    All you have to do is refer back to tbe demarcus cousins trade rumors of the past couple of years.  Cousins may or may not be a better player than monroe, ultimately, but there is no argument that monroe has been the more reliable, the better, pro.  And sactown was not trading cousins for a middling package of older, less talented players.  If sactown was going to trade one of the league’ best young bigs, they were going to be appropriately compensated.  They were going to get a shyteload of talent.
    No one is untradeable.  But if you are going to trade one of the league’s most valuable assets, a team had better get just compensation.  
    Amazing, that even after the AI debacle, when detroit did not make that kind of trade, that fans still have not learned that lesson.
     

    • Nov 28, 20132:52 pm
      by Jon

      Reply

      if smith’s contract was more tradable i’m sure everyone would want him traded instead

      • Nov 29, 20132:54 pm
        by frankie d

        Reply

        i agree.  which is why the decision to give smith that contract was so bad.  as i’ve said since they signed smith, the contract set it up so that monroe would ultimately be run out of town.  
        monroe’s struggles and the resulting fan disenchantment with him was entirely predictable.
        and frankly, the idea of building around a guy like smith, one of the worst decision makers in the league, is horribly mistaken.  a horrible, horrible decision to bring him on board, worst than the BG/CV signings – they came into a relative void; smith is crowding out one of the most talented young  big men in the league – and as it unfolds, true pistons’ fans won’t believe how bad things will turn out.

    • Nov 28, 20134:24 pm
      by Otis

      Reply

      1) Jon is right. I maintain that Moose was doomed here the second we got Dre because they’re both centers. I just don’t think you can win building around them. The only place they ever looked good together was on paper. That said, it’s hard to argue that [Moose + whatever we could get for Smith] is better than [Smith + whatever we could get for Moose]. Moose has been here for three plus years and consistently proven that he’s not the answer. If he was the answer he’d be fighting for position in the low post, demanding the ball, and putting the team on his back. He’s just not that good of a player, and he’ll never reach his potential playing alongside another center. EVER.
       
      2) Cousins is a physical beast who DOES take over games, and his problems are entirely between the ears. Monroe’s problems are physical. He’s not some physical specimen bursting with potential. He’s maximized what he can do with his god given gifts, and it’s not enough to justify max money. Trust me, we could get a lot for him if Joe was willing to listen to reason instead of being a desperate, stubborn asshole.

      • Nov 28, 20135:45 pm
        by frankie d

        Reply

        Ever hear of bad news barnes?  He was a physical speciman whose trouble was between his ears.  After years of f-ing up you couldnt give him away.  Cousins has damaged his market value because of who he is and what he has done, but you would still have to pay dearly to get him, while monroe had – before his slow start which has obviously been caused by the team’s personnel moves – done nothing but prove his worth, and i am sure there would be a long line of teams ready to take a supposedly slowfooted 7 footer off detroit’s hands.   Especially if they could get him for pennies on the dollar because his gm had stupidly done things that lowered his immediate value.
        And the idea that he has maximized his talent is laughable.  He came into this year an even better offensive player – he has obviously worked on his footwork – and one of the dumbest things about this season is thst the team has nit exploited his new proficiency.
        Again, no one is untradeable but if any team trades a young big man like monroe they better get a king’s rsnsom and not the walmart special most fans are talking about.

        • Nov 29, 20132:46 pm
          by Otis

          Reply

          Obviously there are head cases who are going to poison a team regardless of their potential, and it’s not like I’m advocating trading for Cousins, so you don’t have to tell me about his red flags or potential for disaster. If Cousins still has the same problems at the end of this post-rookie contract, I think his “damaged goods” label will really scare teams off. So I’m not arguing there.
           
          Where we disagree is this outlandish notion that Greg Monroe is this untouchable wonder machine who will lead this team to a golden age IF THEY ONLY USED HIM RIGHT. Dude’s been here for three plus years and has consistently proven he’s not the answer. I’ve said many times before, if he were the only center I could get my hands on, I’d pay the man and hope for the best. But we have a guy who projects to be one of the best centers in the league. All the physical gifts of a Demarcus Cousins with none of the brain damage. And Monroe isn’t a power forward, doesn’t project to be a power forward, has failed so far in his shoehorned role as a power forward. You went out and got Josh Smith, so blame Joe if you don’t like that move, but the guy is here on a big contract that won’t be traded for value. Get over it. Josh isn’t likely to be going anywhere. Drummond isn’t going anywhere. This team is NOT working, and Greg hasn’t done a DAMN THING to take charge of this team and put them on his back. Fight for position in the low post, demand the ball. For f*ck’s sake, the guy is supposed to be some glorious post player who has the size advantage night after night, and what good is he? Snap out of it and see him for what he is. A slow 15 & 9 center who can’t defend anyone. Not a max player. If he wants to be “the man” here, he’s not doing anything whatsoever to prove it.
           
          You give that man a max extension and you may as well just move the team to Seattle.

          • Nov 29, 20133:15 pm
            by frankie d

            i, for one, have never argued that monroe would “lead” the team to a title or to great success.
            i do believe, however, that he is capable of being the number one or number two offensive option on a team that can go deep into the playoffs.  there simply are not many big men in the league, especially, big men his age, with his skills.
            as a matter of fact, if his skills, talents and numbers are to be treated so cavalierly, who are the other big men who are better, who do things that contribute more?  
            cousins is certainly in that conversation.  who else?
            i guess the biggest point of contention i’d have with your view is that there is ample proof that monroe cannot play alongside drummond effectively.  one of the biggest problems with frank last year was his refusal to devote PT to finding out if those two could play together.  until the last dozen games or so, they never got significant PT together.  and this year’s ridiculous roster contraction has made it impossible to tell if they can mesh their skills.
            additionally, except for the few games drummond and monroe played with caldron, they’ve never really played with a point guard who understood how to run a half court offense in a way to exploit the talents of those two big men.  the coaching they’ve had to suffer under has been atrocious.  it will take a creative offensive mind to figure out a way to exploit the divergent talents of drummond and monroe and the pistons have not had anything close to that since they have been there.  and the lack of that kind of coaching has not given us anything close to evidence sufficient to make any judgments about how they can or cannot exist together.
            i will say, however, that i think you will get your wish, and i’ve thought that since joe signed smith.  signing smith was as obvious a way of saying its been real and i hope the door doesn’t hit you on the way out as i can imagine.  
            why joe has done this, his rationale, in the face of smith’s history, and monroe’s potential is a mystery to me.  but i definitely think he is going in that direction.
            and just for the record…no one is untraceable in my book, even drummond.  i simply cannot believe the kind of trades that are being discussed here.  and yes, my starting point for a good trade is the kind of trades that were being discussed for cousins.  nothing less.
            when joe traded chauncey, a few months after NJ traded kidd to dallas, the contrasts in the trades was outrageous.  NJ made a good trade when they moved kidd, while detroit got taken to the cleaners.  looks like the same kind of thing may happen here.  while i doubt that cousins will be traded soon, the kind of talent sac town was going to get in return was reasonable and substantial.  contrast that with the kind of trades that are being discussed here and it is the same difference between the kidd and chauncey trades.

          • Nov 29, 20136:01 pm
            by Otis

            A #1 or #2 option is very much “leading” the team to victories. What else would you call it? Also, it’s worth noting that Monroe will NEVER reach his potential paired with another center. It’s just how it is. He needs a spread floor and room to operate. Just because he’s a special player, doesn’t mean he’s going to reach great heights here. Sometimes you just draft two guys at the same position in semi-consecutive years. Sometimes you have a surplus of depth at one position and plenty of weaknesses elsewhere, and for the good of the team you have to trade one of them. It happens. It happens all the time.
             
            Believe it or not, I don’t think I’m going to get my wish. I think Joe is going to stand pat no matter what and hope that the team figures it out by the end of the season. We’re not going to be bad enough to fall completely off the face of the earth, and I don’t see trades for Monroe or Stuckey making the team better this season. This is why he should not be allowed to call the shots. I sense a very dark future ahead.

          • Nov 29, 20136:32 pm
            by frankie d

            portland is the perfect example of a team where the #1 or #2 option is not a guy who leads his team to victory.
            aldridge just scores points and gets rebounds but he is definitely not a leader. lillard is the team leader now.  brandon roy was the leader for the older blazers.  when the team had neither, they were horrible because they had no one capable of leading them to victories.  aldridge basically had the same numbers all the way along, the team just did not win without a real leader both on the floor and the locker room.  in fact, i would argue that wes matthews, who is probably option number 4 is more of a leader than aldridge.  he certainly speaks up more, has more locker room influence and has hit more important shots.
            one crazy stat was that until last year, aldridge had never hit a game winning shot.  over all the years and shots and points, he never had hit a game winner until last  year.  in fact, it is a real joke because he would play hot potato with the ball in the last minute of games, obviously trying to avoid taking clutch shots.
            it happens all of the time…a guy who scores lots of points is not necessarily the guy who actually leads the team, either emotionally, or when the team actually needs important buckets.
            is monroe the same type of player as aldridge, in that regard?  hard to say because detroit has never really been in that many situations where they needed a clutch basket. hopefully we will see how monroe actually responds to the pressure.  

  • Nov 28, 20133:11 pm
    by WishuWould

    Reply

    @frankie your overlooking that drummond does what monroe can better plus some.  Yes he needs to improve the free throw, but shaq never did and he was a defensive force.  Drummond can clean up the mess and rebound better than monroe, who can hit an elbow jumper every now and then.  You dont go far with players like him because of his lack of defense at that position.  If a team wants to unload a ton of assets for him thats fine with me.  But any one who knows monroes game wont do that for their teams future.  Please dont reply a book full of  broken typed nonsense.  Fixed your computer settings or something.

    • Nov 28, 20135:50 pm
      by frankie d

      Reply

      I dont post via my computer.  
      If you dont want to read it that is your prerogative.  No skin off my nose. 
      And any idiot knows that monroe’s market value has absolutely nothing to do with drummond. Zip.  Zilch.
      Again, the market for young bigs strongly favors the team with the supply.  Only a freaking numbskull would lower the value of his iwn asset by asserting that we just dont need that type of redundant talent.

      • Nov 29, 20132:52 pm
        by Otis

        Reply

        What part of his comment makes you think he’s saying you sell Moose for less because Drummond makes his contributions redundant? He’s just saying Monroe is expendable, which he certainly is. We have a starting caliber C and a starting caliber PF under contract (who, like Monroe, is forced to play out of position at the moment). So it doesn’t make a shred of sense to pay top dollar for another starting caliber C. Hence, giving him a contract extension and investing so much in three guys who can’t play together looks like a mistake from the get-go. Add to that the fact that you can get GOOD players/picks for Moose and it’s a no brainer.
         
        This team isn’t working, Francis. It’s not working. So how is it going to suddenly start working just because we’re paying Monroe ten million more dollars a year?? The team will get WORSE by tying that much money up. Jeez.

        • Nov 29, 20132:58 pm
          by frankie d

          Reply

          What part of his comment makes you think he’s saying you sell Moose for less because Drummond makes his contributions redundant?
          this part:
          “your overlooking that drummond does what monroe can better plus some. ”
          while he does not use those exact words, that is what his statement essentially says.

          • Nov 29, 20136:03 pm
            by Otis

            Um, this part?: “Only a freaking numbskull would lower the value of his iwn [sic] asset by asserting that we just dont need that type of redundant talent”
             

  • Nov 28, 20134:26 pm
    by Otis

    Reply

    I hope this game was a lesson to all the nincompoops who think this team is headed in the right direction and/or that Moose is the answer. Trade Moose before we have to pay him, and trade Stuckey before he goes elsewhere and we lose him for nothing. These should be very easy decisions and would set this team up with a very bright future.

  • Nov 28, 20134:58 pm
    by pistons moribund

    Reply

    The wheels just came off the wagon.  Sorry?!?  Hope the practice is going well.  Jorts is probably a better fit on this team then Bullwinkle.  Trade him now for some draft rights alone with Stuckey and there is a better possibility that the pistons will make the playoffs, so obvious that Bullwinkle is complete crap at defense, just dont tell anyone> heheheeh.  Keeps posting you FW fans!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  • Nov 28, 20135:48 pm
    by Jacob

    Reply

    I think we need a trade but don’t just trade to trade.

    • Nov 29, 20132:54 pm
      by Otis

      Reply

      That’s a weird way to put it. If you “need” a trade, by definition you’re not trading “just to trade.” You’re trading because it’s necessary. Needing a trade is reason enough to trade. And we do need a trade.

  • Nov 28, 20135:50 pm
    by grizz3741

    Reply

    Dan Feldman … really spot analysis …. and entertaining … but would give Cheeks a D because obviously he is in charge of how motivated and organized the team is ..

    • Nov 29, 20132:59 pm
      by Otis

      Reply

      Agreed for the most part. I grade nearly everyone on a curve based on the fact that Joe’s awful construction of the team is going to hinder everyone’s effectiveness by preventing them from being in a position to succeed. And by the fact that he can’t hire a coach worth a damn. And both of these problems compound each other. So yeah, Joe gets an F- and a trip to the glue factory as far as I’m concerned.
       
      That said, Chicago came out of the half and made adjustments. Detroit did not. Also the rotations are starting to drive me a little mad. By far the best thing about this entire season was seeing VERY short rotations in the first few games. Basically 8.5 guys. Loved it. Only could have been better if it was just 8. Now it seems like a lineup grab bag where everyone gets four random minutes. I hate it. It doesn’t make sense. Everything is Joe’s fault, but Cheeks can’t possibly get any kind of B for coming out in the second half and getting picked apart like that.

  • Nov 28, 20135:51 pm
    by grizz3741

    Reply

    Doesnt every team need 3 bigs? So why trade Moose? Get him playing in a system that works for him or try to anyway … Remember when I posted when Smith was signed that it didnt make sense to play all 3 bigs at the same time? Most of the time that is being shown to be true ..

    • Nov 29, 20133:01 pm
      by Otis

      Reply

      Every team needs three or four bigs, but they don’t ALL need to be front line talent, and you can’t afford to pay top dollar to a collection of guys who can’t play together. Nobody has ever won a championship with one of their top three players on the bench at all times. If they can’t play together, you can’t pay them what they’re worth. So cash out on Moose while he’s still cheap and get assets to build around. Nobody’s building around three guys who can’t share the floor.

  • Nov 28, 20135:52 pm
    by grizz3741

    Reply

    typo .. really spot on analysis .. great work Dan ..

  • Nov 28, 20136:10 pm
    by frankie d

    Reply

    i havevto say i just dont get it.
    after the 3 years monroe has had here in detroit i just dont get why detroit fans feel the need to denigrate monroe and argue that he is, essentally, a marginal talent.
    i get that a fan might want to trade him because they might view him as a way to get  assets thst might fit better.
    but why does he have to be a bum, in order to justify trading him?  and why would any fan want to just dump him to go in another direction.
     
     
     
     

    • Nov 29, 20133:12 pm
      by Otis

      Reply

      1) Very, very simple. It’s because he is a marginal talent. Now in his fourth season, he looks basically like the player he was in year two. He’s slow and unathletic, and his defense is poor. He can work as hard as he wants on his game, but his physical limitations will always hold him back. He has a respectable post game, but that is BY FAR his greatest strength, and it’s not all that impressive. His handles are very clunky and awkward, which leads to a staggering number of turnovers. His weaknesses are glaring, and his strengths are less than elite. He will never, ever, EVER be the best player on a legitimate contender. And he’s due for a colossal pay raise. We’re just calling it like it is.
       
      2) Said it before, I’ll say it again: If Moose was the only center available, I’d give him his max extension and accept whatever mediocre fate lay ahead for my team. Being that we have a starting frontcourt under contract without him, coupled with the fact that he probably has tremendous trade value, and every time I see his face I want to throw up. I just want the guy gone for some perimeter help (or picks) so we can just move on with our lives. This relationship isn’t going anywhere. So it’s not that the guy sucks, it’s that the decision to keep him sucks. So whenever I look at his face all I see is the terrible fact that he’s still here.
       
      3) I am terrified that our fate is sealed, that Joe would never trade him, and it gives me anxiety. Because once the trade deadline passes, if this team stands pat, it’s going to be five more years of winter.

      • Nov 29, 20136:24 pm
        by Jon

        Reply

        i’m starting to think moose needs to be traded too but he’s still a really good player.  a lot of the backlash you get is due to phrases like this: “every time I see his face I want to throw up”.  What makes you feel so much hate for a good player on a team that you supposedly support. again, i can understand thinking the team is better off with other assets in place of monroe but i still like the guy and support him since as far as i can tell he puts in the work to get better and isn’t poisonous in the locker room

  • Nov 28, 20137:06 pm
    by WishuWould

    Reply

    Frankie u act like we are going to get blake griffin and a draft pick for monroe.  You might be the walmart special..you know why griffin always get critized is for his lack of D.  One way power fowards might as well come off the bench!  You ever heard of Corlis Williamson, might want to look him up.  What you think monroe is going to start blocking shots, hitting threes, and dunking on people???  Monroe is a good one way power foward foward.  Might be the sams club special, and when people try to start putting the crown on him when he got here you dont always buy what the media is selling.  Blaha called B Kinght the next isaiah thomas…looked where he is at.

  • Nov 28, 20137:59 pm
    by frankie d

    Reply

    the consensus is that monroe is probably the best player out of his draft, one that included john wall.the list of players who have done what monroe has done – i think he’s averaged 15/9 for his 3 years – is ver small.
    you are welcome to your opinion of monroe.  i doubt that it is shared by very many knowledgeable nba execs.
     
     

    • Nov 29, 20131:24 pm
      by Jon

      Reply

      paul george is definitely the best player from that draft. also, if we didn’t already have jennings and wizards offered wall for monroe, i’d take it without too much thought

      • Nov 29, 20132:06 pm
        by frankie d

        Reply

        Agreed.  
        My mistake.  Overlooked george.
        Up to this year, monroe would have taken that crown.  Wall has struggled greatly til this point.  This year george has elevated his game.  Imho,  monroe is ready to do the same – his footwork has improved immensely – but the team made the horrendous decision to bring in 2 players who were destined to take the offensive focus from monroe.
        Bringing in smith and jennings will be seen as historically bad moves, moves that will set the franchise back for years.  But like the darko fiasco, it will be a decade or so before the true damage will be seen.

        • Nov 29, 20133:24 pm
          by Otis

          Reply

          “This year george has elevated his game.  Imho,  monroe is ready to do the same”
           
          Frankie, your opinion is going to get us all killed. If Monroe was the answer, he’d be answering. He’s about as much the answer as “The Answer” was when he was a Piston. Monroe can not get a pass for his deference to Smith, Jennings, Stuckey, whoever. If he wanted to make this his team, he’d be working his ass off, fighting for position in the low post, demanding the ball, and putting us on his back. If he’s the player you’ve deluded yourself into thinking he is, we’d be seeing that all the time. What’s his advantage, or the team’s size advantage, if we can’t push around smaller teams?? He’s almost always bigger than his man. If he was establishing position and calling for the ball repeatedly and still being ignored, I’d see your point. But he’s just farting along like a complete asshole.
           
          If you ever heard a point guard speak in your entire life, you’d hear how crucial it is for big men to WANT the ball. To SCREAM for the ball. To DEMAND the ball. You hear them talk all the time about how they deliver the ball to the squeaky wheels. They’ll analyze players, and Kenny “The Jet” Smith will talk about how if a big man didn’t really look like he wanted the ball, he wasn’t getting the ball. He just said a week or two ago that the truly great players were JERKS about demanding the ball and didn’t shut up until they got it. Greg is not that guy. I DEFY you to cite games where he’s busting his ass for position and demanding the ball. When he does this, he consistently gets the ball. But he does not do this nearly enough, and I’m not going to blame anyone else until Moose becomes THAT guy. But he won’t because he’s a marginal talent.

  • Nov 28, 20138:10 pm
    by WishuWould

    Reply

    I am welcome to my opinion, and the one that you have no inside source on what nba execs are thinking is probably most accurate!

    • Nov 28, 20139:21 pm
      by frankie d

      Reply

      on that note i am going to sit down and eat my turkey out here on the west coast.

  • Nov 28, 201311:11 pm
    by haydzzz

    Reply

    If Joe D is ever gonna trade stuckey or monroe he has to do it now. Im not saying for certain that it is the answer but I think that Moose may never be anything better than a 16 and 9 guy (nothing wrong with that but is he worth the max?). Josh smith is not a small forward and although he can play it, Pistons will get there moneys worth with him at power forward. 

    • Nov 29, 20133:35 pm
      by Otis

      Reply

      Amen. I’m glad we’re friends.
       
      Speaking of which, if the team expects to keep both, they will be unable to add talent next season by any means other than through exceptions. Stuckey is unrestricted and has a cap hold of like $12M; Moose is restricted and his cap hold is around $10M. That’s all our cap space right there, so we’d have to renounce one of them in order to add players. And we can’t go over the cap to sign Stuckey if we renounce him. So, if we wait until the offseason to make any moves, we’re left with nothing but bad options:
       
      1) Extend Monroe with a max contract or attempt to sign-and-trade him somewhere. If a team under the cap offers him a big contract, there will be no return whatsoever. So you’re pretty much married to Monroe if he’s still on the team after the deadline. Or you’re getting a REAL pennies on the dollar return. Two terrible choices.
       
      2) Lose Stuckey for absolutely nothing after so many years of frustration and after he’s finally emerged as a star caliber player, or extend him in the hopes that this contract year was a coming out instead of a fluke. If you choose to extend him, you will have only exceptions to sign new players.
       
      So yeah, if you want to bring back Moose and Stuckey, THIS is the team you’re rolling with for the foreseeable future. Given that this team is CLEARLY not one midlevel exception player away from being good, you can’t possibly think standing pat at the deadline is what’s best for the team.

  • Nov 29, 20136:22 am
    by Derek AKA Redeemed

    Reply

    Chicago is a team with a stable system in place.  With or without their superstar they still compete on both ends with disruptive defense and precision offense.  It took them awhile to get to that point and it’s going to take us awhile to get there too.
    I continue to be surprisingly pleased by what we’re getting out of Stuckey.  Good for him.  I thought he was poised for a breakthrough a couple of years ago, now he looks like he’s in the midst of one.  Cheeks and Billups has endorsed that guy heavily and it is paying dividends.  Well either it is their encouragement or it’s the hope to get paid dividends at the end of the season.
    It will be interesting to see if he can keep this consistent play going for the whole year.
    Drummond is active out there on D.  It’s just sometimes that activity looks like nervous confusion.  I want to see more from our perimeter D, so our 5 can clog the lane.  I’d also like to see more backside coverage helping Drummond out when he gets out of position like he tends to do.
    This is a long season and we are only in the first quadrant.  This season has been at least better than the last 4 thus far.  We just need to take advantage of the weakened East and try to cushion our place in the standings.
     

    • Nov 29, 20133:43 pm
      by Otis

      Reply

      Chicago is a team with a good coach in place and quality complementary players in place. Having a system is nice, but you need the right pieces. They have a defensive anchor at center, a capable point guard, shooters on the perimeter, a legitimate power forward who actually plays power forward. We have two centers at the power positions, neither of which is a threat from outside five feet, so defenses don’t have to rotate more than six inches to cover them both. We have a quality power forward and rim protector playing small forward and getting torched routinely by quicker small forwards, and having to choose between chasing them off screens or protecting the paint. This is not a formula for success, and there is no system on planet Earth for making it work.
       
      If you’re worried about where we fall in the pecking order of the embarrassing Eastern conference, then your priorities are way out of whack. This team sucks, and I don’t care if they’re a 3 seed in this pitiful conference. They have no shot at winning this year, and they will have fully committed to mediocrity if they let the deadline pass without making a move. Period.

      • Nov 29, 20133:57 pm
        by frankie d

        Reply

         ”a legitimate power forward who actually plays power forward.”
        gee…you must be talking about boozer, a guy who has been derided as one of the worst defensive forwards in the league for a long time.   slow, uninterested in defense…etc…
        funny how he all of a sudden becomes a competent part of a very good defense team when he is on a team coached by a great defensive coach.  

        just had to laugh when i read you describe boozer – without mentioning his name – in ways that were so complimentary.  especially when boozer has been torched, and rightfully so, because he was looked at as such a defensive liability.
        moral of the story: almost any nba player can be a competent part of a good team defensive scheme if the coach knows what he is doing.
        obviously thibbs knows what he is doing and it is fair to say that frank and cheeks don’t.

        • Nov 29, 20136:09 pm
          by Otis

          Reply

          I didn’t say “a good defender.” I said “a power forward.” Greg Monroe isn’t a power forward. Boozer is. The way you just cherry-picked five words from my comment and went on a darling little tangent speaks volumes about the kind of commenter you are. I described a complete organism; coach, point guard, center, PF, everything. And you picked one player and one side of the ball and acted like you made any sort of point. Boozer sucks at defense, even in Chicago. And he’s a f*cking power forward, so 365 days a year, 7 days a week he will be a better power forward on both sides of the ball than Moose Moinroe, who is a center if ever there was one.

          • Nov 29, 20136:41 pm
            by frankie d

            agh…your beef with monroe has largely been that he cannot defend PFs.  boozer has always been criticized for that. boozer used to play center also – at duke, at cleveland, at other nba stops – and the main criticism was always that he just didn’t have the foot speed to play other PFs. 
            which seems to be exactly what you are saying about monroe…at least to me that seems to be what you are saying….

        • Nov 29, 20136:09 pm
          by D_S_V

          Reply

          +1

  • Nov 29, 20134:17 pm
    by Lethal Leeroy

    Reply

    Ok Otis, your point made, rightly or wrongly it’s inevitable that Moose is squeezed out (if anything, because Josh and Dre put more bums on seats, tis a business)… Can we now get on with who / what comes here for Monroe before the deadline? I understand Moose is only 4m worth, unless he’s packaged with a Stuckey or CV. In either scenario, what are the potential (realistic) options in your opinion

    • Nov 29, 20136:18 pm
      by Otis

      Reply

      1) My point is very much not that Moose will inevitably be squeezed out. My point is that it would be recklessly psychotic not to cash in on him and move on. I’ve gone on record as saying that Joe will most likely keep both Stuckey and Monroe because he is a selfish, clueless, desperate, pathetic disaster of a human being who should have been fired once a day every day for the last five years. He will sit on this bad team, damning the future in the process, and worry about the consequences after it’s too late to genuinely get this team on the right track.
       
      2) I’ve also gone on record as saying I can not provide specific examples, because I do not have access to Joe’s rolodex. I don’t know who wants him. I don’t know WHO specifically, but I guarantee you several/many teams would be interested in adding Moose. Especially for assets that won’t pay off immediately. Likewise, I don’t know who they would trade. If you’d like to look around the league and ask me who I’d take, fire away. You can package him with a variety of different contracts, and if all else fails I’d happily take a 2014 first rounder and filler. Not trying to be stubborn here, but my opinions on who is available are of the utmost irrelevance. If you don’t believe we could get a tempting package of players and/or picks then I just don’t know what to tell you aside from that you’re wrong.

  • Nov 29, 20134:31 pm
    by Einstein

    Reply

    Instead of 6-9, we should be 7-8 with a win vs Chicago…or even 8-7 if we hang on to win in Memphis. Heck, if we don’t let L.A. runaway in L.A., maybe even….gasp…..9-6! Then would all of you be complaining and beeching and moaning?
    As Einstein, brain of all basketball brains, its clear to me that our greatest weaknesses are team D and 3-point shooting. I argue 3-point shooting is the greater weakness, but you can’t deny last in the league in opponents field goal %. I think if we actually made our 3′s at a greater clip than LAST in the LEAGUE, our opponents would have less easy transition scoring opportunities and our defense would slightly improve. 
    For his athleticism, its crazy to me that Drummond doesn’t block shots. Neither does Monroe. That’s not good. Our SF shouldn’t be our best shot-blocker. We can’t be a good defensive team if we don’t block shots.
    So, if we learn to shoot 3′s, learn how to block shots and not give up easy points in the paint, and play all around sound defense, we’ll be an above-.500 team. We need Chauncey back and we need to play him alongside Bynum, Charlie V, and Dre when running the high pick n roll.

  • Nov 29, 20134:32 pm
    by Lethal Leeroy

    Reply

    And while we have the big 3, it’s better to showcase their tradable talent by having Greg come off the bench at the 4/5, with Chauncey, Stuckey, Gigi… and one of josh or Dre (or another bench big)… This way Greg can demand the ball in the post, go to work down low and score or not heave it up uncontrolled as he can actually kick it out to 2 (possibly 3 if CV is in) knock down 3pt shooters.

  • Nov 29, 20136:16 pm
    by haydzzz

    Reply

    I think the saddest thing about the current roster is that kyle singler is our best small forward

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