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Pistons won’t amnesty Charlie Villanueva

David Aldridge of NBA.com:

Pistons, per source, won’t use amnesty, saving the likes of Charlie Villanueva

Villanueva will make $8,580,000 next season, and I’ve come around to the idea that amnestying him might be a sound basketball decision. I don’t know what potential trades the Pistons have in mind – at this point, extra cap room wouldn’t accomplish much in free agency – but amnestying Villanueva could either help or hinder them.

The numbers can change slightly, but for simplicity’s sake, the rest of the post assumes the Pistons’ contracts (including Villanueva, but excluding any player they lose to reach the roster limit) exactly equal the salary cap.

If the Pistons amnesty Villanueva, they could take back only $8,680,000 in a trade without giving up additional players.

If the Pistons don’t amnesty Villanueva, they could take back $12,970,000 by trading only Villanueva.

So, if the Pistons are targeting Villanueva-related trades that would bring back large salaries – maybe for Rajon Rondo or Rudy Gay – they might be better off keeping him.

However, if they’re considering Villanueva-related trades for players who make $8,680,000 or less, they should amnestying him.

Imagine you have a team with a player making $8,680,000 or less you want to trade to the Pistons. To make the cap numbers work, would you rather take back nothing or take back Villanueva, whom you’d have to pay $50,471 per day. I think nearly every team would prefer nothing. In other words, any trade involving that scenario would give the Pistons more favorable terms elsewhere in the deal’s structure (draft picks, etc.) if they amnesty Villanueva.

Unfortunately, because the amnesty window closes Tuesday, the Pistons must likely decide on the amnesty before they know what Villanueva-related trades will be available. Maybe this move was made for sound basketball reasons – because Joe Dumars believes Villanueva’s contract will better serve the Pistons in a trade than additional cap space would. But amnestying Villanueva and completing such a trade would cost Tom Gores more money, because he’d have to pay both Villanueva and the replacement player. So, from the outside, we can’t know this decision was made in the interest of making the Pistons the best team possible or the interest of making Gores as much money as possible.

We do know the Pistons not amnestying Villanueva bode poorly for Kim English and Peyton Siva, as Detroit must trim its roster to 15. I’d be surprised if the Pistons don’t waive English by tomorrow, and though the they have more time to determine Siva’s fate, one avenue to clear a roster spot for him is now gone.

62 Comments

  • Jul 11, 20135:10 pm
    by I HATE FRANK

    Reply

    I Like Siva, I hope he is okay… Siva in the summerleague actually looked better than Burke….But a 3rd PG is not worth more than the potential of a big time trade option 

  • Jul 11, 20135:22 pm
    by jake

    Reply

    what about tony mitchell? it’d be a travesty if he wasn’t on the 15 player roster…

  • Jul 11, 20135:35 pm
    by frankie d

    Reply

    i think it is pretty clear that mitchell will be on the roster.  
    not sure how the numbers work out, but i am sure he isn’t going anywhere.
    hard to believe that siva will simply be allowed to walk away after how well he’s played, and the huge hole in the pistons’ roster in exactly the areas he excells in.
    not sure how they will do it yet, but i have to believe they will find someway to keep him under contract. 

  • Jul 11, 20135:35 pm
    by gtg2013

    Reply

    “So, from the outside, we can’t know this decision was made in the interest of making the Pistons the best team possible or the interest of making Gores as much money as possible.” Per Occam’s razor, it’s the latter. You’re overthinking this. Gores wants to keep his money. I’d like to see them keep Siva by dumping CV, but it’s not my $9,000,000+ (=pay due CV and Siva). Sure, Siva is worth the standard rookie contract. But is he worth $9,000,000? And I’m sure the front office would love to trade CV w/o screwing up the current roster or future drafts, but they have to think it’s just gravy if it happens.

    • Jul 11, 20137:56 pm
      by tarsier

      Reply

      If the Pistons dumped CV and didn’t replace him (or replaced him with a rookie’s min), Gores would actually stand to save money if any other team picked him up.

  • Jul 11, 20135:38 pm
    by frankie d

    Reply

    however, not using amnesty on CV is a travesty.
    the only possible justification for not  using it last year on either CV or BG was that they were saving it to use on CV this year.
    just allowing the opportunity to pass without taking advantage of it is just horrible. 
     

    • Jul 11, 20135:47 pm
      by jake

      Reply

      siva has shown that he can handle the point very well and will get stashed overseas for a year or two to work on his jumper. he’ll carve out a long career as a backup point, hopefully for the pistons.

      • Jul 11, 20138:29 pm
        by Huddy

        Reply

        Shown he can handle the point….in summer league.  Essentially meaningless. Austin Daye dominated summer league.  

        • Jul 11, 20139:44 pm
          by CityofKlompton

          Reply

          Seriously. Hey remember when Bellinelli dominated summer league for like 40 pts/game or some crazy stat? And then he went on to win three league MVPs and an NBA championship? Yeah, me either…

    • Jul 11, 20135:47 pm
      by I HATE FRANK

      Reply

      Frankie it gives the pistons flexibility it gives them a option… I just underting bring back bynum if you gonna sign bynum am backing in a trade

    • Jul 11, 20137:48 pm
      by Tony J AD1 for 3!!!

      Reply

      EXACTLY! Like I said below, we gave up a first round pick to get BG huge conract out of our hands when we could’ve just used the amnesty on him. So essentially we will lose the amnesty provision after this season (no remaining players to use it on) AND a draft pick… wow

      • Jul 11, 20138:07 pm
        by tarsier

        Reply

        Yes the draft pick was officially given away for no basketball reasons, just to save Gores some cash. 

        If that’s how you’re going to run a team, don’t buy it. Someone else will be willing to actually try to win. 

        • Jul 11, 20138:16 pm
          by Desolation Row

          Reply

          This. 

        • Jul 11, 201310:42 pm
          by I HATE FRANK

          Reply

          We traded Ben Gordon and a 1rd pick for Josh Smith …

          Good deal!…when we make the play-offs that pick becomes less value …

          Most of you are being drama queens 

          • Jul 11, 201310:54 pm
            by Dan Feldman

            The Pistons traded a first-round pick and whomever they would have signed in 2014 for Josh Smith and $10 million (or so) for Tom Gores

          • Jul 11, 201311:02 pm
            by tarsier

            Ummm, the Pistons did not need to give up a first rounder to get rid of BG. That’s what the amnesty clause was made for.

          • Jul 12, 201312:00 am
            by dacata

            I HATE FRANK is on the money.  Josh Smith signing = Gordon + 1st round pick protected up to no.8  - it’s a no brainer, I’d take that trade everyday day of the week.  CV’s will be valuable to a big market team who wants to dump talent for some salary cap flexibility to go after Lebron/Kobe etc next year.  

          • Jul 12, 20139:35 am
            by tarsier

            dacata,

            What do you not understand about the fact that a first rounder did not have to be sacrificed to get rid of BG’s contract? 

          • Jul 12, 20133:46 pm
            by Tony J AD1 for 3!!!

            Tarsier definetly gets it. There was no point in giving up a pick when we could have used the amnesty. That’s like paying the $50 to get out of jail when you have a “get out of jail free” card sitting there in Monopoly. No point to it. Yes the pick may not be as valuable because this team SHOULD NOT be in the lottery this year but a with careful scouting you are always bound to get a good but underrated player. The Spurs are a good example of a team who get good players in the draft without being in the lottery…

          • Jul 13, 20135:46 am
            by Dacata

            Tasier,

            Amnesty clauses are hardly the equivalent to $50. It’s a $10 million dollar get of jail card which is steep in anyone’s language!

            would you rather give up a mid first round pick to divorce your wife or pay her $10 million+ to go away?? most people would go with the first option.

          • Jul 13, 201312:22 pm
            by tarsier

            And most people shouldn’t own sports teams. If you do, pay the $10M for a mid first round pick. It’s not like Detroit is trotting out a really expensive roster.

            If you own a team to make money, sell it and invest in something else. There just aren’t that many to go around. Let someone who really wants to make it into a winner have it. 

  • Jul 11, 20135:49 pm
    by Chris

    Reply

    I think it would be wise of the Pistons to keep Silva, and use Bynum’s lovely 2 year deal in a trade scenario (which I think is what Joe D will ultimately do).

    • Jul 11, 201311:20 pm
      by Huddy

      Reply

      Why wouldn’t he just not resign Bynum?  

    • Jul 11, 201311:46 pm
      by gmehl

      Reply

      @Chris Who is Silva?? Isn’t it the Lone Ranger’s horse.

  • Jul 11, 20136:11 pm
    by Gordbrown

    Reply

    Was there any confirmation of the Bynum signing beyond a tweet from Bynum’s agent? I’m just curious as to what’s happening here? I’m thinking maybe Bynum might still get a deal somewhere else if a floor has been set. But maybe I’m dreaming as well.

  • Jul 11, 20136:16 pm
    by Travis

    Reply

    Just looked at the Pistons roster on ESPN.com and saw JJ Hickson on there…

    Guess its a mistake? Or did a trade just happen? 

  • Jul 11, 20136:22 pm
    by Scott

    Reply

    You weren’t lying, Espn has him on the roster at $4 million. Interesting. 

    On another note, a Villanueva or stuckey S&T for Jennings 4 years 30-32 million would be a nice cap to this off-season imo. 

  • Jul 11, 20136:27 pm
    by Scott

    Reply

    Hickson signed with the Nuggets for 3 years 15 million according to http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/9457631/report-jj-hickson-reaches-deal-denver-nuggets

  • Jul 11, 20136:42 pm
    by Jens

    Reply

    I don´t like Charlie having his butt saved again. he just deserves to be kicked out. That being said, Siva does deserve being on the roster after what he´s shown in summer league. He really seems to have good chem with Der.

  • Jul 11, 20136:43 pm
    by Jens

    Reply

    I don´t like Charlie having his butt saved again. he just deserves to be kicked out. That being said, Siva does deserve being on the roster after what he´s shown in summer league. He really seems to have  good chem with Der.

  • Jul 11, 20137:32 pm
    by Corey

    Reply

    I really don’t get it. They could even amnesty CV and not sign anyone else – just keep Siva on a rookie minimum contract.  I hope a trade is in the works so they can keep Siva. But with the Billups and Bynum signings, maybe he’s better off overseas for a year.  Seems dumb for a rebuilding team, though, to sign two old backup PG’s and freeze out the new young one that’s showing some real potential.
     

  • Jul 11, 20137:43 pm
    by Tony J AD1 for 3!!!

    Reply

    Hopefully the pistons can convince Siva to be stashed in Europe for a year or 2 therefore we won’t just be giving up on a pure PG like him.

    In response to the amnesty clause trading BG AND a draft pick was pointless. That’s the only knock I have on Dumars this offseason. Why trade a first round pick to get rid of a huge contract then NOT use the amnesty on another large contract??? Wouldn’t it have been better if we amnestied BG this year??? 

  • Jul 11, 20138:23 pm
    by Desolation Row

    Reply

    I like Siva a lot. Liked him in college, like what I’m hearing about him now. I could not care less what it costs Gores to amnesty CV. I’m a loyal fan and have paid a lot of money to this team throughout the course of my life. What the hell reason do I care if a billionaire like Gores has to lose a few million on his vanity purchase (the Pistons) at the expense of fans? The corollary: I give every crap in the world about dumping CV to make room for a young player like Siva AND that much more cap space.

    Gores knew what he was getting into when he bought it; to Tarsier’s earlier point, why buy a team if you have no regard for the game and not a care in the world about your fans? 

  • Jul 11, 20138:54 pm
    by Jason

    Reply

    I think it’s time to waive or trade Slava, he’s the least talented player left, IMO, and I think we may have enough big bodies to get by for now. 

    I think Siva has too much talent to not keep on the roster, and I have been watching the summer league games. Let him and will compete for a couple seasons, it will only make Siva better. Though that is one more roster spot given to a player who can’t shoot. I hope we at least get something back for him, if we don’t keep him. 

    • Jul 11, 201311:10 pm
      by tarsier

      Reply

      If one of Monroe/Drummond were to get injured, Slava would be the only back up C. You could put Smith there for spot minutes, but I wouldn’t want to count on him there.

  • Jul 11, 20139:22 pm
    by Holy Crow

    Reply

    If my intention was to acquire Kobe Bryant, My goal would be to offer a combination of expiring contracts and promising young players, along with a team that would be an instant title contender with the addition of the Black mamba. Killer Joe has the goods, you heard it here first.

  • Jul 11, 20139:55 pm
    by CityofKlompton

    Reply

    I hate to be a troll, but of all the comment threads for all of the posts I have ever read on here, this one is by far the most absurd.  You guys realize amnestying Charlie at this point make almost no sense.  We’re not competing for a championship this year… why not ride out the remaining year on CVs contract (possibly the most valuable since it’s an expiring year) and see if we can get some return on what so far seems like nothing.  I also think its great that a lot of people seem to think walking away from 9mil is just so easy when you have the wealth that Gores has. Easy to say now when you’re a thousandaire and have no realistic concept of how much money that is to give up for seemingly nothing in return.

    • Jul 11, 201310:59 pm
      by Dan Feldman

      Reply

      “We’re not competing for a championship this year… why not ride out the remaining year on CVs contract (possibly the most valuable since it’s an expiring year) and see if we can get some return on what so far seems like nothing.”

      Amnestying Villanueva presents opportunities to get return. Say a team has a player making $8 million in 2013-14 and 2014-15 and wants to trade him to get under the luxury tax this season and/or cap next season. The Pistons could absorb that player’s contract and get draft picks for doing so.

      “ I also think its great that a lot of people seem to think walking away from 9mil is just so easy when you have the wealth that Gores has.”

      Gores has to pay Villanueva whether or not he’s amnestied. 

      • Jul 11, 201311:23 pm
        by tarsier

        Reply

        “Amnestying Villanueva presents opportunities to get return… Gores has to pay Villanueva whether or not he’s amnestied.”

        I can never remember whether it’s the same people being told these facts repeatedly or if new people just keep coming along who don’t understand the CBA. But how are these concepts so difficult? 

        Sometimes I think it’s just a mentality that if someone pays $100 for a meal and it tastes like shit, they will still eat it because damn it, it was really expensive. Whether you paid $100 or $0.50, it still costs the same amount to replace it with something decent. 

        • Jul 12, 201312:08 am
          by jacob

          Reply

          It would have been better I think to just amnesty Gordon but that’s a lot of money and remember Gores was still paying Rip last year haha. So it’s not my money and if gores and dumars can still build a contender while saving money all the better. Hopefully at some point we will make a trade to bring in a another good player and figure out our roster situation.

        • Jul 12, 20132:25 am
          by CityofKlompton

          Reply

          I simply see more value in keeping him around at this point than letting him go. I don’t foresee amnestying him bringing us any kind of significant roster upgrade. So if my $100 shit sandwich with trade value could only be replaced with a slightly better shit sandwich (if at all) by tossing it in the trash and shelling out more money for a potential upgrade/potential shit sandwich 2.0, I’ll hang on to the original one and see if I can get anything back for it before I am forced to spend more money.  I guess I’m just not that hungry right now…

          • Jul 12, 20133:58 pm
            by tarsier

            Better to throw it out and not replace it at all.

      • Jul 12, 20132:17 am
        by CityofKlompton

        Reply

        To your first point, I think that unless that particular trade is happening before the amnesty deadline, I am keeping him.  We have issues stretching the floor and I can see value in keeping him around and letting him come off the books next year (at the least) simply for his (streaky) shot from time to  this year. Additionally, anybody we sign in his place is not going to put us over any kind of serious hump, and I’m not sure we can find that valuable of a piece at that price via trade (unless some GM out there decides to let that kind of value contract go… on second thought, we are talking about NBA GMs. I might have just voided my entire argument. Anything is possible.)

        “Gores has to pay Villanueva whether or not he’s amnestied.”
        This I understand. However, A) He would have to dole out some dough in order to sign another player.
        B) I’ve seen plenty of people make the argument that Gores doesn’t want to amnesty CV so he can save himself the 8.5 he would have used to lure another FA (assuming he would have used it all), and since he is a super rich man who owns his own NBA team, he should have no problem simply eating another 8.5 mil since that money means nothing to him (allegedly.)

        • Jul 12, 20134:00 pm
          by tarsier

          Reply

          I don’t expect money to mean nothing to him. But if somebody is going to buy a sports team, I expect him to run it in such a way as to prioritize winning over making money. If you’re all about making money, there have got to be better investments than sports teams. That’s more of a hobby/bragging piece.

          • Jul 12, 20139:56 pm
            by CityofKlompton

            Believe it or not, professional sports teams are for-profit businesses. Sometimes they are run that way. There is no clause that makes them run teams differently. I think if Gores (or plenty of other owners (I’m not saying ALL of them)) thought they would lose millions of dollars from buying a team, they would have declined to do so. With that being said, I think it’s been said a million times that the best way to make a sports team profitable is to win.

          • Jul 13, 20133:29 am
            by Dan Feldman

            “If you’re all about making money, there have got to be better investments than sports teams.”

            Check out how much owners have typically paid for sports teams and how much they’ve typically sold for. Sports teams are a GREAT investment (though the ROI has shrunk from where it once was).

          • Jul 13, 201312:45 pm
            by tarsier

            I recognize that they were once a great investment. Are they really still? It seems like if that were really the case, they would just sell for more. If it’s a great investment, you’d think people would be lining up to buy them just for that, driving the price up to medium investment (well maybe a bit better since it seems riskier than average) but then somebody would be willing to pay a premium because he really wants the fun of owning a sports team.

          • Jul 13, 20132:12 pm
            by CityofKlompton

            Sports teams are worth more now than they ever have been, and the prices seem to keep going up.  Why would you sell now when indications are the market is still on the rise.  Furthermore, it takes incredible wealth to be able to buy one, and on top of that, a lot of things have to go right for the sale to actually go through.  Maybe if it were easier to purchase one, people would be lining up. Or… maybe nobody wants to let them go right now since value is so high and rising.

          • Jul 13, 20135:52 pm
            by Dan Feldman

            Mostly what City of said. They’ve gone from INCREDIBLY GREAT investments to merely GREAT investments. The biggest issue is such a small pool of people have enough money to buy one.

          • Jul 14, 201310:03 am
            by tarsier

            That’s fair. But it takes nothing away from my resentment of Gores if he takes extra cash to get a competitive disadvantage.

      • Jul 12, 201311:10 am
        by Trevor

        Reply

        So we could get a “good” player (about what 8 million gets you) by amnestying him (in which case Gores would be eating the contract, as now he’s paying 2 guys instead of 1) or we could trade him for a “great” player (about what 12 million gets you) or even a “star” player (what Stuckey and CV together could get you).  Seems like an obvious choice to me.  Even if we used him by himself in a trade, we could just pay his contract, or some portion of it, and it would essentially be a mid-season amnesty – with more options on what we could get in return.
        Or, crazy talk, we could use the cap space next year on some guy named Lebron.

        • Jul 12, 20134:08 pm
          by tarsier

          Reply

          Yes, if one can assume that a great player will become available mid season with a contract in a very small range where trading CV makes it possible to acquire him, but having CV’s cap space won’t. And that the team trading him away would rather take back Stuckey + CV than Stuckey + Jerebko or Stuckey+Middleton+Slava+Bynum/Billups, whatever.

          There is about a 0% chance of that. Since when have teams had issues tacking on bit players on small contracts to make salaries work?

          However, what are the odds that midseason, some team is slightly over the tax and wants to get under it? But that would require trading and taking back less salary for THIS season. So they are willing to give up assets, but they can really only deal with a team that has cap space.

          Seriously, present me one possible trade that would only work if CV is not amnestied. Just one. And I’ll show you how I could make ti work with him off the books. 

          • Jul 12, 20139:58 pm
            by CityofKlompton

            It’s amazing that you aren’t running an NBA team yet.

          • Jul 13, 20133:20 am
            by Dan Feldman

            Here’s your challenge, tarsier. Turn this into a viable trade if Villanueva had been amnestied. Celtics don’t want Jerebko’s or Bynum’s multi-year contracts.

            Monroe Stuckey, Villanueva and Kravtsov for Rondo, Wallace and Lee

          • Jul 13, 20131:22 pm
            by tarsier

            Too easy, Dan.

            First, it’s a bad trade anyway, so reject it (I mean, taking on $15M/yr for two more season after the end of this coming one in order to flip Monroe for Rondo? That’s essentially saying that Rondo is worth $15M/yr more than Monroe).

            But maybe the Cs are throwing in some picks (enough to be worth $15M/yr for two seasons, based on the BG trade, that’s at the very least two mid-first rounders). Ok, now we want to make it work. And we don’t want to include Bynum or Jerebko because then they won’t include as many/as good picks. Although, by the same token, we could probably get more back by not sending CV over.

            We’re bringing in $27,330,855. Having amnestied CV, we have $10,551,660 in cap space. So we have to send out $16,779,195. Wait, presumably $442,180 of that cap space will go away when we actually sign Pope instead of having his cap hold. So we have to send out $17,221,375. Monroe+Stuckey+Kravstov+Billups+Middleton comes out to $17,375,326.

            Yup, that works. Sending out nothing but expiring contracts. Absorbing Rondo, Wallace, and Lee by using all that beautiful cap space.

            Even if the numbers didn’t quite work out, the Celtics or some other team would probably be willing to take on Datome for nothing. Unless Bynum and Jerebko are both awful, some team would probably be willing to absorb one of them for nothing. Or even if taking on one of those deals that lasts one additional season requires an extra second rounder to be sent out. I expect that an extra second rounder could be coaxed from the Celtics in exchange for not having to pay the remainder of Charlie’s deal (or one might be able to be had for the cash incentives of whatever another team paid to grab CV after he was amnestied.

          • Jul 13, 20131:30 pm
            by tarsier

            My comment about paying $15M more annually for Rondo than Monroe does of course assume that, after this coming offseson, the two of them will have similar annual salaries. I don’t know this, but that they will be in the same ballpark seems a good assumption.

          • Jul 13, 20135:58 pm
            by Dan Feldman

            I’m impressed you got it to that range. However, without us knowing as outsiders the exact salary structure of anyone signed this year, perhaps it won’t quite work. Again, also impressed with you alternative ideas. Maybe worth revisiting once more specific contract info is known.

          • Jul 14, 20132:00 am
            by tarsier

            Yeah, those numbers are cutting it awfully close. Once Tony Mitchell is signed, it probably doesn’t work without including one of Mitchell, Datome, Bynum, Jerebko.

  • Jul 12, 20136:44 am
    by Hook Shot

    Reply

    Slava should be gone. He is a stiff. Keep Siva

    • Jul 12, 20134:10 pm
      by tarsier

      Reply

      How is a 5th PG more worthwhile than a third C (especially when both of the other two Cs will possibly be starters)?

  • Jul 12, 201311:06 am
    by MIKEYDE248

    Reply

    One of the biggest reason I want to see CV amnestied this year is the same reason I wanted it last year.  He will be eating up minutes that I would rather see go to either better players or younger players.  Last year there was the big push to show case him and Austin Daye and they were eating up a lot of minutes.  They had one really good week, but sucked the rest of the year.

    • Jul 12, 20134:12 pm
      by tarsier

      Reply

      This too.

      But for me, it is one of the smallest reasons. 

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