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Pistons sign Chauncey Billups to two-year, $5 million-plus contract

Adrian Wojnarowski of Yahoo! Sports:

Chauncey Billups has reached agreement on a two-year contract to return to the Detroit Pistons, league sources told Yahoo! Sports.

The deal will be worth $5 million-plus for Billups, league sources said.

Billups, 36, hopes to finish his career where it blossomed in the glory years of the Billups-Richard Hamilton-Ben Wallace Pistons of the mid-2000s. Billups will play the part of mentor for young Detroit guard Brandon Knight, and be a rotation guard off the bench for Detroit.

Pistons general manager Joe Dumars has long regretted trading Billups to the Denver Nuggets for the expiring contract of Allen Iverson in the 2008-09 season.

As I read this news, big smile crept over my face. Chauncey Billups won’t necessarily change the Pistons’ trajectory, but man, this going to be a lot of fun.

I even began to headline this post “Pistons re-sign…” before realizing Billups is signing, not re-signing. But sure feels like he is, doesn’t it? Despite him bouncing around the Nuggets, Knicks and Clippers, in some ways, it feels like he just left.

In other ways, it feels like he’s been gone a long time. Brandon Knight has struggled to man the position for which Billups set such high standards, though I suspect Billups’ delayed development has actually given Pistons point guards longer leashes. Still, we’re reaching the point nearly everyone agrees Knight must produce or lose his job.

Billups – like Rasheed Wallace with Greg Monroe and Andre Drummond – can impart some of his wisdom on the young Knight, and wow, I just can’t get over how cool it is to have both those 2004 champions back in the fold. Unlike Wallace, though, Billups will be in uniform, and that’s why he could help the Pistons even more.

Knight has been handed the starting job to begin the last two years, and he needs someone to push him. Jose Calderon, when healthy, pushed him right out of the point-guard position last season, a fate too harsh for a young, developing player in a lost season. Billups might provide a reasonable bar for Knight to clear, the corollary being Billups might be good enough to start if Knight doesn’t assert himself.

There’s no doubt Billups can mentor Knight, but can Billups actually vie for a starting job? Billups will turn 37 before the season begins, and he’s coming off a poor playoff showing, so there are sound reasons to doubt that part of the bargain.

However, I thought Billups was in sharp decline when his postseason performances wavered late in his Detroit tenure, and that’s why I didn’t mind, at the time, trading him for Allen Iverson and potential cap relief. Obviously, I – like Joe Dumars, whom I appreciated reading “has long regretted” the move, according to a reporter who seems pretty plugged-in to Dumars’ thinking – was wrong about that traction.

This one, though, feels oh so right.


  • Jul 11, 201310:43 am
    by ejohns


    can’t tell if its sad or not but this made my day. 

    • Jul 11, 201312:36 pm
      by Quin


      It’s great. I feel like if there was anybody responsible for the team’s chemistry and winning attitude around 2004, it was Chauncey. Hopefully he can get these young guys thinking right. In fact, I hope he can pull a Jason Kidd and start coaching in 2015.

  • Jul 11, 201310:50 am
    by RyanK


    This is good for both Knight and Pope.  Billups can right the ship at either position if one of the young guys is struggling in the backcourt.  He’s not an allstar, but he can handle the ball and get it to guys at the right time and spots.  He can also make the defense respect the three point line if they are cheating in the paint against Monroe, Drummond, and/or Smith.

    It’s a one year deal with a team option for year 2.  This is good for Detroit.  It’s exciting to be a Piston again…and a fan.

  • Jul 11, 201310:50 am
    by jacob


    It’s a one year deal for 2.5 Mil. with a team option for the 2nd. That’s a pretty solid deal.

  • Jul 11, 201310:54 am
    by acr


    How can I get any work done when the Pistons keep doing interesting stuff?  A trade or two still to come to resolve roster size (2 for 1 or for future picks), either over the summer or before the deadline.  

    • Jul 11, 201311:08 am
      by RyanK


      Joe D has something up his sleeve.  We’ll see a 2 for one trade or a three for two.  English is gone, CV and Stuckey are on their way out.  I sure hope The Pope is ready for minutes at 2 guard…we’re thin there unless the plan is for Billups and Bynum to cover the point while Knight plays a lot of time at 2.  They said Middleton could be a 2…  It’s not good to expect Billups is going to be healthy all season.

      Depth Chart
      PG: Knight, Billups, Bynum, Siva
      SG: Pope, Knight, Billups, Middleton
      SF: Smith, Middleton, Singler, Mitchell
      PF: Monroe, Smith, Jonas, Mitchell
      C:  Drummond, Monroe, Slava

      • Jul 11, 201311:16 am
        by Clint in Flint


        Don’t forget Datome.

        • Jul 11, 201311:21 am
          by RyanK


          Oh yes-ah, I must-ah not-ah, forget-ah about-ah Luigi…

      • Jul 11, 201311:18 am
        by tarsier


        If Stuckey is on his way out, someone else will be in via the trade. He’s not getting cut after the Pistons just guaranteed his full salary.

      • Jul 11, 201311:33 am
        by acr


        Something’s definitely in the works.  I would guess that the following players could be involved in a two for 1 or draft picks trade: Stuckey, CV (or amnesty – they have till Friday or something to decide, right?), Singler, Jerebko.  A Stuckey plus one of Singler/Jerebko could bring back a nice backcourt piece.  I don’t think Siva makes the roster, at least at this point, though I am a bit perplexed by signing both Bynum and Billups.

        • Jul 11, 201311:42 am
          by tarsier


          They have until Tuesday. And yeah, it makes sense to gauge whether anyone out there has interest in CV before they amnesty him. I just expect the answer to be a resounding no.

        • Jul 11, 201312:31 pm
          by tarsier


          The Pistons should be inquiring about Deng.

          I don’t know if he’s available, but with Butler and Dunleavy, the Bulls don’t really need him. So it would be a matter of whether they are willing to pay the luxury tax (something they have historically avoided).

          If they are pretty determined to avoid paying the tax, Knight may be enough to get a deal done (expiring contracts of Kravstov and/or Middleton may need to be included to make the numbers work).

          Stuckey/Billups/Bynum/maybe Siva would still be a very weak PG rotation. But Deng would be a very capable 2/3 so PG would really be the only remaining hole. 

          • Jul 11, 20131:21 pm
            by acr

            Deng and Wilson Chandler are the two guys I would like them to try to get.  Denver is an interesting situation right now with the new GM and the multiple point guards that are now on their roster.  Before the Billups signing I was hoping that we could entice them with some combination of Stuckey, Singler/Jerebko for Chandler and helping them out cap-wise by taking Andre Miller back as well (whose contract seems pretty crazy for a 37 year old).  Not sure how that would work now, but I guess we’ll see what Dumars does…

      • Jul 11, 201311:56 am
        by Brian S


        A couple of things:  I think the org still has high hopes for Knight at PG, though more cautious about it now, and Billups as a mentor make so much sense IMO, given their similarities.  Also Knight “getting it” is the best case scenario for future, so I think that’s the way they’ll go to start.  As much as I love Andre and he puts up impressive per minute numbers, I think its actually best to keep him off the bench with the Smith signing, and I think his attitude and ego can handle that.  He knows he still has a lot to learn, and playing on the 2nd unit keeps him confident and productive, and more involved than if starting – If he can do a 12-13 minute stretch each half, he can get a solid 25 minutes without accounting for more PT due to fouls/injury or playing Smith a few minutes at SF on occasion.  That works out well in a big man rotation with Smith and Monroe around 30-35 with Jonas picking up 0-10 minutes game to game. I also won’t include Stuckey or CV as the writing is on the wall.
        Depth Chart
        PG: Knight, Bynum, Billups (Siva to Europe for a year or 2)
        SG: Pope, Billups, Middleton, Knight,
        SF: Datome, Singler, Middleton,Smith
        PF: Smith, Monroe, Jonas, Mitchell
        C:  Monroe, Drummond, Slava

  • Jul 11, 201311:01 am
    by Dmoc


    One of the main pluses of this is it gives Detroit a player who is a respected veteran/leader that can keep Smith in check.  Without Billups I don’t think Detroit had that.

  • Jul 11, 201311:01 am
    by tarsier


    I would love to have Billups, Wallace, and Wallace on the staff. Although, in Ben’s case, there is unfortunately no place for a judge in a sports organization.

  • Jul 11, 201311:07 am
    by Windy


    Hope he can help knight and pope run the screens that Rip/Billups ran for years in Detroit…Pope seems exactly the type of player that can spot up shoot pulling off a screen…Billups will go a long way in teaching Knight how to let a play develop, slow the game down and pick your shots wisely…Pistones have a team now that can get out and run but I like nothing more than slowing the game down to put other teams asleep in the half court offense…

  • Jul 11, 201311:14 am
    by Jeremy J.


    I love Billups to death, but I just don’t understand what this team is trying to do. It is starting to rub me the wrong way and I am a die hard.

    • Jul 11, 201312:25 pm
      by I HATE FRANK


      whats not to like?

      Young core..(assuming none are traded)
      Drummond – 19
      Knight – 21
      Greg – 23

      Just draft in the last 2 years
      Pope – 20
      Mitchell – 21
      Middleton – 21

      Role players
      Stuckey – 26
      Jonas – 25
      Slava – 25
      Lugigi – 25
      Charlie – 27

      Josh Smith – 27 (but 9 years in the league)
      Billups – 36 ( All-Star, Well Travelled, Well Respected, Champion)
      Bynum – 30 (hardnosed PG, knowns how to play the game)

      If I calculated correctly… Even with Josh Smith and Charlie… the average age of the Pistons is 23 years old…

      Billups bring experience, leadership and flat out shooting!…. it also take excuses away from Knight…If Knight can not produce with the talent he has around him and with the potential mentoring that he will have , then it means the Pistons did every possible to help Knight succeed, and if he doesnt then you can move him with no regrets 

      • Jul 11, 201312:42 pm
        by tarsier


        What exactly are your expectations for Knight that you count him as core? Normally to have that designation, you need at least all-star upside.

        • Jul 11, 20131:25 pm
          by I HATE FRANK


          with the Line-up as is….

          I believe Cheeks & Dumars are going to sink or swim early with Knight….I believe the offensive will become easier, it’ll be an uptempo attack offense, and when its not there in the half court set; then it will become more of a two man Game… with either Greg or Josh … Similar to what Mike conley does in Memphis

          Knight Scoring is going to go up…. 15-16ppg if he can get his shooting to around 43-44% from the field , and 37%-40% for 3′s …would be solid…I want to believe he will also get his FT shooting in the solid 80′s%

          Ast Number will be around 6-7…. Lets just assume that Datome and Pope are legit, Kyle Singler slighty inproves with a consistent jumper, and even Billups does what Billups does …. That gives Knight legit Drive and kick out options…. Also, playing with Drummond, Smith, and Greg will give Knight atleast one Pick and roll Option and a Pick and Pop option….His turn-overs might stay the same

          his defense has already improved since his rookie year, he rebounds well for his position…

          But once again, this is a no excuse year for Knight barring a major injury….

          • Jul 11, 20132:04 pm
            by tarsier

            if he got to that level, it would be incredible, but that still wouldn’t make him a “core” player in my books

          • Jul 11, 20135:27 pm
            by I HATE FRANK

            I did not say he is a core player…but he is part of the youth core….

            Guys that are young with a lot of potential left…. Our Core is Drummond, Greg and Josh … Easily our most dominate players 

          • Jul 11, 20137:53 pm
            by tarsier

            you said:

            “Young core..(assuming none are traded)
            Drummond – 19
            Knight – 21
            Greg – 23″

  • Jul 11, 201311:20 am
    by James


    Love this signing.  First, it’s really a one year deal at only 2.5M since the second year is a team option so it’s a low cost move.  Second, we need shooters and Billups can still do that from 3 point land and at the line.  Third, he’s capable of playing the 1 and 2 which gives us roster flexibility since we’ll have to get rid of a guard.

    Lastly, it’s great for all the sentimental reasons Dan mentioned above.

    I actually wouldn’t mind if Billups started with either Knight or KCP, but still only played 15 to 20 mpg.  We know the starting line-up will have three non shooters with Smith, Monroe and Drummond so having someone like CB who can spread the floor is a must.

  • Jul 11, 201311:20 am
    by Jeremy


    Chauncey wanted to retire a Piston and now he has the chance to. My only worry/excitement is what moves are going to be made to get this roster down to 15 or less and which of the glut of guards or power forwards is going to go. They have 2 true PGs in Siva and Bynum, 3 combo guards in Knight, Stuckey, and Billups (we know him as a PG but he has played the 2 elsewhere), KCP and English are true 2′s, and Singler has and can put minutes in at the 2. If my math is correct, they have 17 guys on the roster now and need to loose 2 of them – I see the obvious choice being English and I really can’t pick another guy worthy of being waived. A trade has to be in the works in order for all this to happen and make sense. I guess I could be wrong and Gores may decide to pay the money to amnesty CV. That would put the team at 15. Siva and Mitchell in the d-league for the year? Who doesn’t suit up?
    It’s not a huge signing by any means but it has huge ramifications as to what this roster will look like in October.

  • Jul 11, 201311:23 am
    by Fennis


    I love this move.

    1. Chauncey can just hang out on the 3-pt line and shoot 3s as a 1 or a 2. If he hits 2 threes a game this team will be very good. I like the idea of him serving as a model for BK at the 1 and a hedge against KCP’s gradual development at the 2. 

    I still don’t agree at all with the notion that Joe D shouldn’t have traded Chauncey. And I think A Wojn is merely speculating rather than referencing a conversation with Dumars (and yes, I know he and Dumars are tight for whatever reason). Everyone in the league assumes that was a bad trade, but the Pistons were not winning a title with that team, and didn’t have a Melo to cover up Chauncey’s warts. They would have become a middling 2nd round playoff teams (e.g, the Atlanta Hawks) and Joe D didn’t want that, and he didn’t really want Iverson either. He wanted cap room, he wanted to rebuild. And that was a reasonable, even smart decision. The idiotic decision was to spend that cap room on a lesser version of Iverson in Gordon and one of the lowest bball IQs of this era in Charlie Villanueva. 

    If he had signed three young two-way players, or even one and say on the cap room and maneuvered for a solid lottery pick the Billups move would have been heralded years later as a model for navigating a quick rebuild. He screwed up in the FA signings and the franchise paid for it by way of three or four awful years of basketball.

    Anyway, don’t mean to reign on the parade. Great signing, all smiles, happy day.

    PS – I hated the Will Bynum signing given our need for outside shooting, and hate it even more now. How does it make even a little bit of sense. With J Smith, Monroe, and Drummond in the fold no one should be signed unless they shoot a consistent 3. I don’t even want to see Jerebko on the court next year, and I like him personally but guys like him and Bynum just don’t fit! 

  • Jul 11, 201311:40 am
    by EMan


    Rip Hamilton (waived) and Ben Wallace (limbo) are both available. Let’s just bring the band back. Anybody have a time machine?

    • Jul 11, 20131:45 pm
      by MIKEYDE248


      That was the first thing I thought when I heard the news this morning about Rip.

  • Jul 11, 201311:46 am
    by Clifton


    Can Billups compete for the starting position?!

    Go to basketball-reference.com, look at the projected win shares per 48 (which is adjusted for age) for Billups and then do the same for each of the other guards.  (Or for that matter any other free agent guard on the market).  

    The only question is how many minutes can Billups play per game.  It might only be 15-20.  But during those minutes there is no question that he’s the best option (by far).

    • Jul 11, 201311:52 am
      by David


      It’s just how many minutes he can play, but how many games. Chauncey’s played about 20 games each of the last 3 seasons.

      I love the signing. Very happy about this, but this is more a leadership, locker room, and legacy signing than for his play on the floor. I expect him to actually play about 10 – 15 minutes for 25 – 50 games + (hopefully) playoffs.

      He’s not starting. And I also think he’ll spend a lot of time at the 2, which will give him the opportunity to play next to knight and actually mentor him on the floor, while relieving some of the ballhandling/playmaking responsibilities. 

  • Jul 11, 201311:49 am
    by Bill Laimbeer


    A great wrong has been righted this day. 

  • Jul 11, 201311:50 am
    by Trent


    How do Charlie, JJ, Middleton, singler, Gigi, Mitchell all fit? 

    Siva and Kim clearly aren’t going to be on our roster.  Do we reach the cap floor if we amnesty CV? And what’s our play with Stuck?

    • Jul 11, 20133:21 pm
      by Huddy


      Amnesty doesn’t affect cap floor it remains where it would have been prior to amnestying.  I would like to see Mitchell push JJ out of the lineup and plug in at PF behind Monroe and Smith.  JJ will probably be vocal about not playing, but he is so limited I would just rather move in a younger direction with more athleticism.
      Luigi potentially could be the first guy off the bench at SF or atleast pretty much split responsibility with Singler as the SF back up, which should be quite a few minutes to share if Smith only really plays about 15 at SF.
      Middleton should be moved more in the SG direction behind KCP, but the organization will probably keep Stuckey at least first off the bench so Middleton is probably rarely on the floor.

  • Jul 11, 201311:51 am
    by Trent


    Oh and looooooooove this deal!!

    i couldn’t believe it when I read it!!! Mr Big Shot is back y’alllllll! 

  • Jul 11, 201311:55 am
    by Corey


    No chance he starts – or, if he does, it won’t last long.  A 37 year old guard who hasn’t been able to play the last two seasons due to injury? They shouldn’t pencil him in for more than 15 mpg if they want him to survive the season.  But with a team option on the 2nd year, there is virtually no downside, so that’s ok.  Good to see him back.

    I am also puzzled by signing both Bynum and Billups to 2 year deals.  I suppose 2 years makes sense in matching how long Knight is still on a rookie contract… but I don’t see the point to having both Bynum and Billups.  There must be some trade action in the works, but all the newly signed players are ineligible until Dec 15, I think?

    I hope this doesn’t mean we cut Siva loose. A guy who can get 6/1 a/t in the chaos that is summer league has potential. 

  • Jul 11, 201311:59 am
    by Jason


    I love this signing, good player at a position of need. Obviously not a long term solution, but for a year or two I’m in. Plus Billips in pistons red, white, and blue just feels so right. 

    If we believe smith can handle 15-20 min at SF a game, then we may have a legit playoff team depending on knights development, and if KCP can become a 3-and-d player. Everyone is rightly concerned of floor spacing, but we have 2 of the best offensive rebounding players in the league. I expect lots of 2nd chance points this season, and some amazing defense. 

    Get to Work! 

  • Jul 11, 201312:00 pm
    by bvpiston


    My favorite Piston is back home. Awesome!

  • Jul 11, 201312:18 pm
    by Windy


    People not liking this deal makes no sense…complain about every move…he is basically on a one year deal, retires a piston, helps BK7, can hit 3s…I mean even if he is dinged up all year he still will provide that leadership…

    I think pistons have until Friday to announce what they want to do with English…they will waive him, Siva probably overseas…


    Thats a 15 man roster,  Pistons will probably ride with this team until the right deal comes along for STUCK/CV…nothing wrong there IMO…there is no rush to waste the money coming off the books with CV AND STUCK…use it wisely and we  could be a deep playoff team in a know time…

    I hope Billups can push Bk7 to get to that next level anf quiet all these haters…Brandon is a smart, hardworking kid that has the tools to be a very strong point guard…just a little seasoning and some actual guidance will go a long way, hey having a few guys around that can actually bang home a shot could go a long way in helping his assists…

    • Jul 11, 201312:31 pm
      by ryan


      Well said. I feel much the same especially about Brandon Knight. That said I would really like to see us work to clear some room so that we can keep Peyton Siva. I guess the best bet is to stash him overseas and bring him back in a year or so.

      It’s funny to be seeing good news about Chauncey at the same time as Richard Hamilton is getting cut by the Bulls. I hope Rip signs with San Antonio and wins a title next season.

  • Jul 11, 201312:32 pm
    by Ryan P


    mark my words.. billups will be coaching detroit in a few years, it all makes sense now

    • Jul 11, 201312:58 pm
      by frankie d


      i t hink this is a way to ease him back into the detroit organization and if cheeks falters, chauncey will be right there to take over in a couple of years.
      i think we are going to see an awful lot of chauncey and knight and chauncey and pope combinations where chauncey will effectively be the point guard.  he may only be able to provide 15-20 minutes a game, but those minutes will be strategically doled out.
      i would not be surprised, also, if he actually takes over the starting position by mid-season.
      til his signing, i thought siva was the best pG on the team.
      now the best PG on the team is chauncey.  just a matter of time before that reality causes a bit of shuffling in the starting lineup.
      cheeks is definitely a coach who depends on his point guards to run things on the floor.  billups fits that mold a heckuva lot better than knight.  cheeks likes to sit back and just let his PG act as the on-court orchestrator.  the days of lawrence frank standing on the sidelines, shouting out instructions is definitely a thing of the past.
      my only question is how wedded both he and dumars are to the knight experiement. 
      love getting chauncey back and this makes up for, in some slight way, one of the worst mistakes any gm has made in the last decade. 

    • Jul 11, 20131:08 pm
      by acr


      I’ve read in a few places that Billups prefers a front office job over coaching once his playing career is done, so I don’t know if I see this happening.  I think it’s more likely that he plays the first year of his contract, and then becomes Dumars’ Asst. GM after that.

  • Jul 11, 201312:35 pm
    by Vic


    I love this deal. It makes the pistons better. Point guard in a pinch, point guard mentor, an outside shooting, in one fell swoop.

  • Jul 11, 201312:58 pm
    by Otis


    There is no standard on earth by which it feels like he “just left.” Where have you been, Dan? I feel like I was a small child when he left and we’ve been wandering in hell for the last five years…
    Aside from that, great news all around. He can be my starting PG on day one, and the job is his to lose. Play alongside Knight and cross-match on defense. I won’t go through the whole roster, because something HAS to give. Even setting aside names of guys who you really don’t have to worry about appeasing (guys like Siva, Mitchell, English) the depth chart is a mess. Ok, screw it, I’ll do the roster:
    A nine man rotation of: Chauncey, Bynum, Knight, Pope, Singler, Smith, Drummond, Monroe, Slava would still leave: Stuckey, Villanueva, Jerebko, Datome, Middleton, Mitchell on the outside (assuming cuts for English and Siva). Some of those guys will push for minutes, others will be disgruntled, and so on. Personally I’m guessing Datome makes the best case for starting SF. Stuckey’s NEVER been out of the rotation for any length of time. And it probably behooves this team to establish/build value for our two big expiring contracts… Whatever happens, at least the team is interesting again.

    • Jul 11, 20132:26 pm
      by Max


      @Otis:  The older you are, the shorter 5-10 years ago feels.  

  • Jul 11, 20131:27 pm
    by danny


    Joe D Joe D Joe D lets be real here Smith or Billups would never of came here if it was not for him.  Season is going to be awesome but with a huge learning curve and I’m fine with that.

  • Jul 11, 20131:41 pm
    by Stuckey and Whoever


    Send CV to the Lakers.  They buy him in a New York second.  Then our roster is complete!

  • Jul 11, 20132:14 pm
    by sebastian


    I was wondering, if it is not too late to rescind the offer to sign Will B. Has he already signed?
    i realize that it would be a not so good look for the organization and Joe, if the offer to Will B. is rescinded, but let’s be real Will B. is not needed on this roster; especially since Chancey is back.

    • Jul 11, 20134:16 pm
      by G


      I’m not assuming anything. Suppose Billups either ends up being good enough to run most of the minutes at PG (my long-shot hope) or spends a lot of time on the DL (MUCH more likely)? The guard rotation COULD look something like this:
      PG – Billups, Bynum, Stuckey/Knight
      SG – KCP, Knight/Stuckey
      or this:
      PG – Knight, Billups, Bynum
      SG – KCP, Billups, Stuckey

      Unless Knight makes a leap this year, Billups & Bynum are the best 2 PG’s on the roster in some order. That doesn’t mean they won’t start Knight (since they did that half of last year when Bynum was the best PG on the team), but I’m not in favor of dumping a good back up to make room for Siva or whoever.

      • Jul 11, 20135:22 pm
        by frankie d


        i’d do what i could do to keep siva around.  
        maybe play around with the injury list…whatever…
        and if he progresses the way he should, by midseason, trade bynum to open up a regular rotation spot for him as the 3rd point guard.
        you’d probably save a million + dollars on your salary cap and you’d have a young player who seems capable of developing into a nice ballhawk with the ability to run the team in its half court sets.
        already, he seems to have a nice rapport with drummond.
        you could either send bynum to a team that needs bench help for a playoff run, and get a draft pick in return or package him with CV for picks and/or a decent player.
        i would,  however, go ahead and move a guy like bynum for a cheaper, younger, more defensive-oriented version in siva.   the savings in money and getting  younger is definitely worth that kind of move.

  • Jul 11, 20139:47 pm
    by domnick


    we need to trade our excess players… there is no point to have too many players fighting for spots… this is gonna cause alot of feud, instability…

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