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Nobody thinks Josh Smith fits with Pistons

An five-person ESPN panel was recently asked whether Josh Smith would be a good fit with the Pistons. The question got four “bad fits” and one “good fit … maybe.” Tom Haberstroh had what reflects the consensus opinion:

Bad fit. Did the Infamous Summer of 2009 not teach Dumars anything? Cap space to Detroit is like a bright light to a mosquito: It looks cool, but it doesn’t get you anywhere. As a non-glamour market, the Pistons often find themselves egregiously overpaying free agents (see: Ben Gordon and Charlie Villanueva). Better to let Greg Monroe and Andre Drummond blossom than have Smith poison the frontcourt with horrible shots.

Matt Moore of CBSSports.com continues the thought:

But there’s an issue here. Smith and Iguodala are the thing on the table that makes the good meal taste great. It doesn’t make the meal. You can’t have that as the main serving. You’ll either: A) get sick, or B) hate it and never want to eat it again.

Smith needs structure, order and high expectations. He has always played in Atlanta, where the general idea was "Oh, hey. We’re not bad! Neat!" He needs a very strong system and a consistent floor leader to keep him tuned in and away from mid-range shots. He needs someone to drive the best out of him. A young and up-and-coming team on a max contract is not a great place for him.

It’s 2013, and James and a big free agency class are set to enter free agency next year. Can the Pistons avoid their temptation to try to skip ahead and stay with the process? Their decision on the wing could determine if they get stuck in purgatory again.

I don’t find Smith an ideal fit, but the Pistons have a chance to upgrade their roster, which for better or worse, they seem intent on doing right now. I think the opinion against Smith mostly stems from the idea that whomever Joe Dumars signs with his cap space will fail, and that’s unfair. Whatever questions people had about Charlie Villanueva and Ben Gordon in 2009 – and there were plenty and should have been more – nobody expected them to fall off like this.

Villanueva and Gordon were both in their mid 20s when they signed with Detroit, but Villanueva hasn’t even coming close to matching his last Bucks season since. Even more surprising, Gordon hasn’t had a single season since the signing as good as any of his five years in Chicago.

But they are the exception to the rule. Dumars shouldn’t fear signing another free agent just because the last two didn’t work.

Would Smith work in Detroit? I don’t know, but I think people are writing off the fit for the wrong reasons.

133 Comments

  • Jul 4, 20131:51 pm
    by deusXango

    Reply

    “But they are the exception to the rule. Dumars shouldn’t fear signing another free agent just because the last two didn’t work.
    Would Smith work in Detroit? I don’t know, but I think people are writing off the fit for the wrong reasons.”

    This is the most open-minded, unbiased statement in the article above, regarding Josh Smith being signed by Detroit. It’s childish to keep bringing up Gordon and Villanueva o make a case against Smith; his talent is far greater than what they brought to the Pistons. 

    • Jul 4, 20134:03 pm
      by mike

      Reply

      Exactly. These people who keep talking about 09 have PTBGCVSD

      Post-Traumatic-Ben Gordon-Charlie Villanueva-Signing Disorder 

      If you are afraid to sign anyone again just because of moves made 4 yrs ago, you might as well just give up now.

      Not to mention comparing the talent level of these guys they are looking at this year to BG/CV isn’t even a comparison. Not to mention the reason they were stuck at a standstill for so long wasn’t just because of those signings, it was because of the ownership change. In other words, even if these new signings don’t work, its automatically going to take 4 yrs to get out of them. They can trade the contracts anytime, which they couldnt before because of Karen. And Josh Smith actually produces like an all-star, so there will always be trade interest in him even at 14 mil yr. Thats what all-stars cost and other teams know that and are willing to trade for them all the time. Its the guys you sign for 12 mil/yr like Gordon that produce like bench players that you cant trade.

      These are TOTALLY different circumstances. Anyone who cant see that either is not looking close enough, doesn’t know anything, or just has PTBGCVSD and needs to snap out of it lol 

      • Jul 4, 20134:05 pm
        by mike

        Reply

        Edit “Its NOT automatically going to take 4 yrs to get out of them”

      • Jul 4, 20134:56 pm
        by Max

        Reply

        Mike gets it.  

  • Jul 4, 20131:59 pm
    by Otis

    Reply

    Also, a lot of people don’t think Monroe and Drummond are a good “fit” with each other. I can’t take anyone seriously who pretends that these two are a LOCK to be the next dominant frontcourt. They’ve looked unimpressive to me so far, the floor spacing is a clustered mess, and the only person who can fix that is Greg Monroe by developing a jump shot. All the floor spacers in the world aren’t going to be enough help. I’ve seen several suggestions that the Pistons, should they land Smith, could trade Monroe for someone like Rondo. Personally, I think that would be damn near a Best Case Scenario for this offseason. Then maybe add one more shooter and it’s a good summer.
     
    I’ve heard the argument that Monroe shouldn’t be traded because he’s a known quantity and a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. But Monroe at PF playing alongside another center is far from a known quantity. I can’t remember the last time I saw two players who were so impressive alone and so invisible when paired together. It’s all about the spacing. They hardly even got any touches when they were on the floor together.
     
    Also, the concept of “fit” alone is irrelevant when it comes to this team. This team has LITERALLY two special players, and they’re both established themselves EXCLUSIVELY at center. Everyone else on the roster is completely ordinary and replaceable, so the best plan to me would be to bring in the best possible three or four players (at complementary positions, of course) and build from there. If Josh Smith is the best we can do, and he’s best suited to play PF, you bring him in and trade Moose for a perimeter stud. And he’ll go a long way towards helping this perimeter.

    • Jul 4, 20132:11 pm
      by I HATE FRANK

      Reply

      actually in the last 10 games …. a very small sample they produced well together….

      However, I have a strong feeling Knight,Greg, Stuckey and Charlie …will be traded

      • Jul 4, 20132:18 pm
        by jamesjones_det

        Reply

        I really don’t think Joe will let Greg go unless it’s a stud of a player or AI comes out of retirement.  Joe falls in love with these guys and that’s his biggest weakness.

        • Jul 5, 20131:20 am
          by Otis

          Reply

          Falling in love with players is one of Joe’s worst weaknesses, and there are many weaknesses. His staunch, stubborn refusal to trade anybody he likes is one of the biggest obstacles to this rebuilding nightmare. He has no idea what he’s doing.

    • Jul 4, 20132:20 pm
      by Kay Wan

      Reply

      @ Otis:

      Monroe and Drummond only started 10 games together last season, during which the team went 5-5 (while Calderon also sat out 6 of those games), and posted solid stats:

      Monroe — 18.3 PPG, 9.2 RPG, 3.5 APG, 1.5 SPG, 54.3 FG%
      Drummond — 11.1 PPG, 8.2 RPG, 1.1 BPG, 1.2 SPG,  67.1 FG%

      And just based on watching them play together in the starting line-up at the end of the season, they complemented each other extremely well. I don’t know what you’re basing your opinion off of, but the evidence would prove you wrong. 

      • Jul 4, 20132:40 pm
        by I HATE FRANK

        Reply

        Dumars trust in Frank set back Greg and Drummond… They should have been starting together 20 games in 

      • Jul 4, 20134:30 pm
        by Russ

        Reply

        The Game works best as a team sport those who say get rid of Monroe imo are way off base players need the five years to individually get better and about that much time to become an adhesive unit. Frank was not a good fit here I think Drummond and Monroe will play good together and I always liked Josh Smith but he did some dumb things in Atlanta like give up in a few games one of those being against the Pistons we have to spend so no chance no gain I would love to see Josh come here and prove his critics wrong and he can’t be anymore over rated the Dwight Howard. And so I say lets give these younger players a chance with the new coach and Lets not give up on Knight either. I respect What Mike has to say and am in agreement.      

        • Jul 5, 20138:15 am
          by Steve K

          Reply

          If you want people to read your post, you gotta use punctuation. I gave up after trying to translate the first few lines, guessing where your thought began and ended.

      • Jul 5, 20131:24 am
        by Otis

        Reply

        @KayWan: I disagree with all my heart. These two dudes can not spread the floor. The paint was PACKED, and I saw a lot of ball domination on the perimeter. Most of the time when Dre was on the floor, they’d try to feed Moose at the elbow and he’d freeze and dump the ball back out. You’ll see a lot more of this next year. Stay tuned.

    • Jul 4, 20132:30 pm
      by oats

      Reply

      @Otis. The argument for keeping Monroe is that you don’t give away 22 year old big men that put up a 16 and 10. If he keeps improving, and the logical expectation for a 22 year old is that he will continue improving, then he is going to be one hell of a ball player.
       
      The idea of getting Josh Smith for his jumper is asinine. The guy has no range. Smith shoots 30.3% on shots outside 10′. Monroe shoots 30.9% on shots with from at least that distance. The only thing Smith does is take way more of them and also shoot from further out. I guess terribly shooting 3s is slightly better than terribly shooting 2s, but that’s not enough to justify thinking of him as a floor spacer. Teams constantly cheat off Smith and dare him to take those 3s because Smith beats teams in the paint and not on the perimeter. Is that really something you want players doing though? Taking shots that they are really bad at? He doesn’t actually fix the spacing problem and he adds the problem of him thinking he does. 

      • Jul 4, 20135:37 pm
        by Jens

        Reply

        But if you have the Chance to use Greg Monroe in a good trade, that nets us a star PG it is not as if we would give him away. He is a very valuable asset, but I would include him in a package for Rondo in a  heartbeat.

        • Jul 4, 20137:17 pm
          by oats

          Reply

          Is Rondo a great point guard? He just had a major knee injury, and we don’t know how well he’ll come back. Even if he is great, can the team keep him? He’ll be a free agent in 2 years and could bolt. Monroe can have any offer matched, so he has no freedom to go anywhere for at least the next 5 years. It is far more likely that the team will be good enough to convince Monroe to stay 5 years from now than it is that they will be good enough to convince Rondo to stay in 2 years.
           
          Even if we ignore the injury and the contract, I’m still not certain a Rondo for Monroe trade is a slam dunk. I’m not thrilled with point guards that can’t shoot. It also makes the team older when the plan should be to contend when Drummond starts to enter his peak in 5 years. I know 31 isn’t that old, but it will mean the window to compete with him would be getting ready to close when Drummond is just entering his peak. Rondo also is supposed to be a hard guy to get along with, and that is potentially worrying. I don’t think Rondo’s a good enough get to move Monroe for right now. Not given his recent injury and his contract situation.

      • Jul 4, 20137:02 pm
        by jeff m

        Reply

        Hey Drummond hit 50% from three last year i think he could be great at it. J/k Seriously, I hope he never gains that skill. Now I would love to see him get better anyware else inside the 3 line.

        • Jul 4, 20137:18 pm
          by oats

          Reply

          I’d be encouraged if he shot 50% from the free throw line. That doesn’t look like it will be happening anytime soon though.

      • Jul 5, 20131:33 am
        by Otis

        Reply

        I am not in favor of “giving” anyone away or “giving up” on Monroe. I think he’s a fine, if extremely flawed, player. And I think he has a lot of value… to a team that needs a CENTER. I think he would fetch a very nice package. This team wants an athletic wing? Monroe probably gets you one of the best in the league. I haven’t even completely “given up” on Monroe and Drummond as a pair, but I don’t think there’s a chance the Pistons can surround them with enough to build a winner. This roster has two genuinely special players and unfortunately they both play the same position. Perhaps they could play together, maybe even be Very Good, but this team wasted their first chance at pairing them together, and the clock is ticking on Monroe’s FAT contract extension.
         
        Ideally, they would have played together A LOT last season, and it’s madness that they didn’t. But you can’t put all your eggs in that basket, and Monroe certainly has less value after you ink him to an $80 million contract if the experiment fails. I happen to think that his trade value is at its absolute highest this summer, and I’d trade him without hesitation for a great wing. He’s not the kind of guy you can just plug into any lineup/sysyem, so I question how much value he’d have at the deadline (given that his skill set is likely to bring some growing pains unless they just use him like we did his rookie season as a big bodied garbage man).

    • Jul 4, 20133:19 pm
      by Max

      Reply

      The first time Monroe and Drummond were put in the game together, the team immediately went on a 10-2 run.   And as someone stated, they did play well together the last 10 games when Drummond was coming off injury.  

      I have no idea what Otis it talking about and he doesn’t seem to realize that Monroe has been mostly playing out of position his entire career.    He fits much better as a four than a five in general but the Pistons have not had a capable center other than Big Ben since Monroe has been on the team and Big Ben was undersized in terms of height and obviously pretty old.   That said, Monroe has proven the ability to play the four and has not exclusively played center since he often played the four with Big Ben.  He looked much more comfortable to me at the four in general at that time and the Big Ben did much less to space the floor than Drummond since he wasn’t even a threat to score.  

      Finally, I know fantasy basketball shouldn’t count for much but when Monroe initially appeared on ESPN fantasy basketball he didn’t even qualify as a center and was only a power forward.   

       

      • Jul 5, 20131:36 am
        by Otis

        Reply

        Monroe barely resembles a power forward in any way. Can’t shoot, handles the ball clumsily, doesn’t have the range or foot speed to defend most of the PFs in the league. Tune in next season.

      • Jul 5, 20131:52 am
        by Otis

        Reply

        One more thing: Everyone seems to agree that Monroe has been our best player for the last couple of years. No organization is going to play their BEST player out of position unless there’s a very compelling reason (such as a higher ceiling prospect playing that same position). Monroe has been basically the ONLY thing worth being excited about for most of his time here, and he’s spent almost all of his time at center. It’s not like we’ve had options at PF that were BEGGING for minutes (Maxiell was up and down and certainly didn’t need to start, JJ was totally out of the rotation for half the season, and the less said about Charlie V the better). Nobody was shifting their franchise player out of position to accommodate these stiffs. Meanwhile, Kravtsov looked like a perfectly adequate backup center who just collected dust. Monroe is far better suited to play center, and the organization clearly believes so.

        • Jul 5, 20133:04 am
          by Max

          Reply

          Do you have any memory at all of Monroe playing with Big Ben?   You are ridiculous.  

        • Jul 5, 20132:06 pm
          by oats

          Reply

          I think the organization has been really up front with how they view Monroe. They seem him as a big that can play either position. That is a way of looking at players that Dumars has demonstrated repeatedly over the years. Rasheed, McDyess, and Webber all played both PF and C depending on the situation. Dumars has said that’s how he views Monroe repeatedly. He was playing center because the team had no other starting caliber centers on the roster. I’m not saying they really had starting caliber PFs, but PF was addressed better with the scrubs at that position than center had been. The team now has a second starting quality big man, and he is a center. Because of that Monroe is a PF now. I don’t think they see it as moving him out of position because I don’t think they see either position as better for Monroe.

  • Jul 4, 20132:03 pm
    by I HATE FRANK

    Reply

    Then if the Pistons don’t sign a major FA the summer its considered a failure by the same media…Once again… Josh Smith, Igoudala are UPGRADES over Singler!  Now Rocket Science

  • Jul 4, 20132:06 pm
    by Kay Wan

    Reply

    There is actually a lot in common between chasing Smith in 2013 and signing Gordon in 2009 — overpaying for talent while ignoring the team’s needs and composition. We forced Gordon into an overcrowded backcourt, assuming his talent would make up for the lack of fit with Stuckey and Rip. We’re now trying to force Smith into a frontcourt that he does not complement, assuming his talent will make up for it.

    It won’t. As long as Monroe and Drummond are the anchors in the middle, we need perimeter shooting from the SF position; there’s no way around it. I would MUCH rather wait the summer out for the trade market to open up (Rudy Gay, Danny Granger, etc.) than overpay for a talented yet redundant name that will sell jerseys and tickets. 

    • Jul 4, 20133:22 pm
      by Max

      Reply

      There is no way around it?   Meanwhile, the Grizz just made the conference finals in the West with only two shooters capable of hitting a 3 and one of them was Tayshaun Prince.   They also had the worst 3 point shooting numbers in the entire league last year.            

      • Jul 4, 20134:06 pm
        by CityofKlompton

        Reply

        A) The Grizzlies can boast one of the better defenses and one of the best perimeter defenders (Tony Allen) in the league.  In a 7-game series, Memphis will shut you down on offense for solid stretches.  The Pistons can not even come close to making this happen on the defensive side of the ball.. The two teams aren’t of the same class defensively.

        B) One could make an argument that had Westbrook been healthy, Memphis would not have gotten out of the second round.  I’m not trying to take anything away from their run, they earned their spot in the WCF, but let’s look at the circumstances.  I don’t think we could get past a team like Chicago or Indiana (let’s not even discuss Miami) without having viable deep scoring options. (Disclaimer: the fact that I even discussed our chances of beating anybody in the playoffs, not to mention even being IN the playoffs, seems absurd to me at this point Haha)

        • Jul 4, 20134:44 pm
          by I HATE FRANK

          Reply

          @wan I hear you…and if Drummond was a skilled offensive player on the level of Gasol or Zach I would completely agree….but Drummond is not … and Greg has yet to prove he can make that 15-17 consistently ….

          Josh Smith isn’t the Perfect Fit offensively, but he is a upgrade over Singler, and he has take over game ability ….

          @ Max … I agree with you…but Memphis, wouldn’t have made it if not for Pondexter and Bayless 3 point shooting…if they had more shooting they could hace done more against the spurs…

          Only the Heat because of Lebron can overcome not having a balanced team…and they probably should have lost to the spurs in game 6 … A much more balanced team 

          • Jul 4, 20135:54 pm
            by Max

            @I Hate Frank……I hear you but it’s not as if there is any player to add that will turn the Pistons into a championship team overnight.   They must make incrementally improvements through moves and internal improvements through experience and chemistry.   They can add Smith and maybe a bench shooter this year and then add a biannual exception player or players and a mini exception or players next year.   

          • Jul 4, 20136:19 pm
            by I HATE FRANK

            I truely believe the Pistons are ready to Swing for the fences….

            They are going move Knight, Greg, singler …Stuckey, and Charlie…

            For Rudy Gay and Rondo ….or Josh Smith and Rondo …

            And we will not be a title contender, but we become a legit threat in the east….50 wins easy …

             

          • Jul 4, 201311:29 pm
            by CityofKlompton

            I can’t say I would be completely thrilled with such a lineup, but they would be a hell of a lot more fun to watch.

  • Jul 4, 20132:09 pm
    by Unbelievable

    Reply

    Simple logic says we will have a much better team with Josh smith.  This is a lot more like getting Rasheed Wallace than Gordon/CV.

    • Jul 4, 20132:13 pm
      by Unbelievable

      Reply

      Not to mention it would be nice to have some one who can match up with lebron.  Personally I think smith paired with Drummond anyone result in tons of rebounds and blocked shots.

    • Jul 4, 20133:35 pm
      by Josh B

      Reply

      Sheed? I’m not seeing the relation here. That was a move made bringing in a questionable personality to an already strong established core. I don’t really see how they’re comparable. 

      • Jul 4, 20135:11 pm
        by Unbelievable

        Reply

        “a lot more like”…  In respect to talent level, personality questions and potential for impact to the team.  If you can’t understand that it’s more like getting Wallace than CV, then you must have failed miserably at SAT

        • Jul 4, 20137:04 pm
          by oats

          Reply

          Than CV yes. Than Gordon… Not necessarily. It’s adding a player whose best position is already filled, and the solution is to move one of those two players to the SF spot at least part of the time. I feel like that is at least as good of an answer for SAT purposes.

        • Jul 5, 201312:24 am
          by Josh B

          Reply

          Yeah, because I disagree with the relevance of your comparison, I must have miserably failed at the SAT……..although Smith is an enigmatic personality like Sheed, there was never a question of whether the talent set that Rasheed brought to the table was a fit with that team. This current roster is at a point where they are finally gaining some pieces that are worthy of building around, so I think it’s perfectly reasonable to question whether or not the players we consider bringing in are complimentary or not. Nobody has denied what Smith brings to the table, but rather they have pointed out that he may not fit with our current frontcourt. 

  • Jul 4, 20132:15 pm
    by jamesjones_det

    Reply

    It really depends if you get Josh for a reasonable contract…  If you do then even if it fails it’s not going to kill the team.  If you pay him the max then you are probably doomed to fail since he’s not a max player regardless of what homer thinks.
     
    I think the best thing for Dumars is to avoid signing another bad contract just to get someone in the door that cripples the team down the road.  You don’t want to become the Knicks handing out bad contract after bad contract.  It becomes way to hard to do anything at that point.

    • Jul 4, 20132:23 pm
      by Unbelievable

      Reply

      Good thinking, take two paragraphs to explain a simple fact that the pistons already announced. 

  • Jul 4, 20132:16 pm
    by Mike Payne

    Reply

    “I think the opinion against Smith mostly stems from the idea that whomever Joe Dumars signs with his cap space will fail, and that’s unfair.”
     
    I can’t imagine anyone actually thinks this.  The opinion against Smith is based on his incredibly damaging offense (one of a few starters who posted negative offensive win shares in 2012-13), an overrated defense (inferior to Greg Monroe on pick-and-roll defense and spot-up defense against stretch bigs), the potential cost (would immediately be Detroit’s most expensive contract) and diminishing returns as his athleticism ages.  Not to mention the fact that Power Forward is Smith’s natural position, and we have a better one there in Greg Monroe.
     
    I don’t think anyone is looking at Smith with concern in their eyes because of Joe Dumars’ track record.  They’re looking at him with concern because he couldn’t be a worse fit next to Andre Drummond and Greg Monroe at small forward.

  • Jul 4, 20132:18 pm
    by Mike

    Reply

    The only reason Smith doesn’t fit with Detroit is that they’d be signing him to likely play at least 20 minutes a night at the 3. Over the last 4-5 years, I don’t think he’s ever averaged more than 5 minutes a night there, and Smith with our current two bigs would create a really weird offense because of the lack of spacing. If Smith was signed to play the 4, though, there’s no reason he can’t fit. He could really fit with anyone at that position. 
     
    I don’t get the “you should only sign Iguodala if you’re awesome at all the other positions” thing, though. He’s a fantastic defender. He’s a very good passer/playmaker. He just doesn’t score at an elite/efficient level. You’re not contending for a title if he’s your best offensive player, but you can if he’s #3. With Monroe, we’d have at least 1 of those 2. The age scares me a lot with Iguodala, but the fit is no concern at all for me.

    • Jul 4, 20132:46 pm
      by oats

      Reply

      Iggy shoots 32% outside of 10′. That should seriously concern you. He’s not a clear fit on this roster because he can’t shoot. He has some decent shooting spots behind the arc according to his shot chart. The left corner and both wings are ok for him. He’s still a 33% shooter from 3 on his career, and he shot 32% on them in the regular season last year. That’s clearly alarming as a potential fit on a team with 2 bigs with limited range. Teams will cheat off him to double the big men and clog the paint, and I’m unconvinced he’s a good enough shooter to make them pay for that.

      • Jul 4, 20133:02 pm
        by Mike

        Reply

        If he could shoot it like you’re asking for, we’d have to pay him max money to get him.
         
        He’s not a great shooter, but he’s not Josh Smith, either, and he’s a good enough ball handler that he can create for others. I understand the idea that he’s not a perfect fit, but he’s not a bad one, either.

        • Jul 4, 20134:27 pm
          by oats

          Reply

          But he’s closer to Josh Smith than not. 32% outside of 10′ is really awful. Smith is about 30% for comparisons sake. I’d like him to be average somewhere outside of the paint. He isn’t. He is a bad shooter. That makes the fit at least worrisome, no? I’m arguing with the statement that the fit doesn’t concern you at all, and it definitely should concern you. Perimeter players that can’t score on the perimeter should always have some question marks. On a team like Detroit that is already relying on their big men scoring in the paint, the no jump shot thing should be an even bigger problem.

          • Jul 4, 20136:26 pm
            by I HATE FRANK

            If we just add Iggy, it will allow Knight to become more effective as a 3 point shooter…If Pope is around 36% he is legit …. Siongler can be a 37-38 shooter in a backup role….

            If your swing player don’t make three’s its okay, especially when they are getting 5 plus ast per-game… Last season 11-12 -ggy shot well for 3′s… This year he shot too many… 

            I’d rather have him in the play making role more than the scorer anyway 

          • Jul 4, 20137:00 pm
            by oats

            Iggy didn’t improve Ty Lawson’s shooting any. He might allow Knight to improve, but let’s not pretend like that’s a given. But your missing the point to some extent. I’m not dead set against Iguodala. I like him as a player. I just don’t think it’s a given that he will fit in Detroit. Detroit is already starting 2 guys that need to be in the paint to score effectively, and adding a 3rd is potentially problematic at least. I know I’ve said it before, but teams will not defend Iguodala on the perimeter, and instead will use that player to clog the lane. That denies Iggy his only good scoring option and makes it harder for the big men to use their only good scoring option. Maybe the strong passing of Monroe and Iggy can get by that problem, but we can’t say that with it will work with any certainty.

  • Jul 4, 20132:25 pm
    by Blocks by Dre

    Reply

    Bobcats just got Al Jefferson…man even they’re getting better this summer. looks like we’re destined (for better or worst) for a ticket to the Wiggins sweepstakes!

    • Jul 4, 20133:26 pm
      by Max

      Reply

      Stop with the Wiggins sweepstakes.   The Pistons are not going to have a pick next year.   Just starting Drummond pretty much insures that barring injuries.  

      • Jul 4, 201310:56 pm
        by Blocks by Dre

        Reply

        So Drummond is gonna answer ALL of our problems…ok

        • Jul 5, 20133:06 am
          by Max

          Reply

          We had the 8th pick last year while not starting our best player most of the season.   If we finish 9th next year, we lose the pick.   That is not solving all our problems.  

          • Jul 5, 20138:59 am
            by Blocks by Dre

            But teams that drafted ahead of us got better (Bobcats, Pelicans, Cavilers) and for now we have the same team. I like Drummond a great deal, but unless we get a real pg his value will always be capped so for me, I can see us being in the bottom 5 for sure as of now

          • Jul 5, 20133:42 pm
            by Max

            Other teams will be fully committed to tanking right out of the gate and we know the Pistons will not.   Just as telling is that several teams that finished ahead of the Pistons like Boston will be falling off the cliff this season. 

  • Jul 4, 20132:30 pm
    by danny

    Reply

    Anyone think that Joe could simply be trying to drive the price up on Smith? 

    Or perhaps trying to gain leverage elsewhere?

     

  • Jul 4, 20132:37 pm
    by Charles D

    Reply

    ” . . . the Pistons have a chance to upgrade their roster, which for better or worse, they seem intent on doing right now.”

    This is because the vaunted free-agent class of 2014 is a trap. Half the marquee or near-marquee guys supposedly in that class will never make it to a free-agency, and the rest will get bid up to the stratosphere by all the *other* teams that are clearing the decks for 2014.

    Joe D had the right idea in 2009, when he spent his money ahead of the supposedly marquee free-agent class of 2010. He didn’t sign the right guys, but had he waited, he wouldn’t have gotten anybody good the next year, either.

    The fit question absolutely matters for free agent signings, but the idea of overpaying is endemic to free-agent signings, so that’s less of an issue. At least we have the *opportunity* to overpay somebody this year — next year the Lakers, et al will overpay everyone before we even get a shot.

  • Jul 4, 20133:17 pm
    by frankie d

    Reply

    What is most concerning is that joe does not seem to understand some basic things about building his team around drummond and monroe, 2 foundational pieces most teams would die for.
    It seems fairly obvious to lots of observers: compliment those 2 with shooters.
    The fact that he seems focused on players – iggy and smith and gay – who are the exactly wrong type of player, is disturbing and revealing.
    Along with the cheeks hire and passing on a PG in the draft – which indicates  more knight at PG –  it is hard to imagine what his vision is for the team in the upcoming year.

    • Jul 4, 20133:25 pm
      by Max

      Reply

      So you think adding say Kyle Korver would lead to more wins than adding Josh Smith or Iggy?   Seems pretty ludicrous to me to hold such an opinion.   

      • Jul 4, 20134:29 pm
        by oats

        Reply

        I’d say Korver on a cheap 2 year deal is better for the long term prospects of the team than Smith or Iggy clogging up cap space for 4 years.

        • Jul 4, 20136:11 pm
          by Max

          Reply

          All great teams get way over the cap.  Even Miami needed to get over the cap before they won.   When you are over the cap, you get exceptions and can still add pieces.   Even if the Pistons signed Korver to a cheap 2 year deal, they would still have to sign several other cheap players to get to the cap floor.   The problem though is that they won’t get exceptions moving forward and they will basically just waste next year and hurt the culture of the team.   Think of it this way.   Good role players want to sign with good teams.   If the Pistons tank this year, who will want to play with them next year.   If they win 45 to 50 games and have a good first round showing, they will look attractive to good role players moving forward.   Finally, signing Smith or Iggy this year doesn’t prohibit them from trading them next year.   Either player is very movable unless they get over 18 million per.  

          • Jul 4, 20136:40 pm
            by oats

            Players tend to follow money. Great players pick ideal scenarios, but that’s the superstars. Old guys may hunt rings, but a lot of them are looking for one last pay day or a just a nice place to live. Most players don’t fall into either category and just follow the money. A lot of them see it as going where they are wanted, but the end result is the same. Championship contenders can get discounts on role players, and everyone else needs to spend for them. We’re not talking about Detroit becoming a contender next year though, so that’s largely irrelevant.
             
            Look, it’s not that hard to hit the cap floor. All this worrying about it is kind of silly. The team can easily bring in 3 players this summer and hit the cap floor. They could easily just way overspend for a single season on someone like Mike Dunleavy to get there. There are teams looking to dump salary and Detroit could take on one of their contract to get there. There are also some legitimately good players that may become available via trade if the team is just patient.
             
            As for the all great teams getting way over the cap, let me introduce you to the Going to Work era Pistons. They weren’t way over the cap. In fact, more teams are avoiding paying the luxury tax than ever before. OKC may have sacrificed a potential championship by trying to avoid the tax. Yeah, they were still over the cap, but not way over. The tax line is much closer to the cap than it used to be, and the stiffer penalties for getting in the tax has fewer teams volunteering to hit it. A few teams will continue to shrug and pay the tax. NY, Brooklyn, and the Lakers all seem like they aren’t afraid of it. That’s pretty much the list though. Teams may be willing to suck it up and hit it for one year, but most teams are unwilling to be there for consecutive seasons. Expect the great teams paying the tax to change.

      • Jul 4, 20136:26 pm
        by frankie d

        Reply

        I dont think a good fit is out there in FA.
        So i might pay korver, struggle thru with him and keep looking for a better fit.   There are guys who fit the mold –  bruce bowen style players – but you have to keep searching.  
        Imho it is better to maintain your flexibility than to lock yourself into a hefty long term contract with a player you know does not fit the team you are trying to build.
        Or at least the team they appear to be constructing around 2 bigs.
        Which is another reason it is so disappointing that joe not stated exactly what he is trying to build 

    • Jul 4, 20137:22 pm
      by jeff m

      Reply

      I totally agree. Hmm Maybe he is just looking to get the most talented free agents available regardless of fit. He has stated on draft night, that they do want to get more athletic, players that are really good defensively. I’m sure that if he did manage to add Smith the current terrible fit from a floor spacing perspective, It could easily start a serious of other trades that could easily involve Monroe being traded. Maybe he could recoup that draft pick they lost in the Gordon trade, for next year. Imagine if he sent Monroe to a team that had High probability of winding up in the draft lottery, while at the same time bringing back some talented vets that fill the needs for his new plan to upgrade the defense, and three shooting. So the pistons get better make the playoffs, and send our draft pick to the bobcats/ hornets, while still having a higher draft pick from another team. Ok this is a lot of speculation on my part, but it be cool if that could happen.

    • Jul 4, 20139:52 pm
      by Ozzie-Moto

      Reply

      Thank you Frankie d     EXACTLY   Crazy but i have said so many time if Joe is comfortable with someone or stuck with misplaced loyalty he will do his damnedest to mash a square peg in a round hole over and over and over … feel like i am watching ground hog day except Joe not learning like Bill Murray’s Phil did… He has not put a balanced team on the floor in 5 years.  I am afraid the he and T Gores think there is a quick fix by signing a name instead of building a team.
       

  • Jul 4, 20133:43 pm
    by RIvera

    Reply

    I wish people could understand that this year is not the year to be spending. For teams like the Pistons(die hard Pistons fan) that are not even making the play offs they shoudl be developing the talent that they have. By developing this talent they will obviously loose games I understand but next years draft is the best draft since 2003. Why would u try to improve this year knowing that by developing your players u could not only improve your teams existing talent but also add a potential star in the draft. Please Please do not commit to spending. If anything get rid of MR.Clean and Rodney Stuckey for a veterans minimum and another first round pick next year. The veteran could coach the young talent and the extra pick could be packaged to move up in the draft. Its ok to tank this season in an attempt to score a huge pick next year.

    • Jul 4, 20135:57 pm
      by Max

      Reply

      If starting Drummond even leads to 3 more wins there is no way they will have a draft pick next year.  They will lose the pick whether they stand pat or not and they can’t stand pat because they have to spend like 15-20 million just to comply with NBA rules.  

      • Jul 4, 20137:46 pm
        by D_S_V

        Reply

        I thought the only ‘penalty’ to not reaching the floor is that your current players get a share of the difference. Forgive me if I’m wrong, but if that’s the case, I don’t see a ‘need’ to reach the floor for the sake of reaching it. And I’d definitely avoid a long term cost just for the sake of doing it when it doesn’t fit the plan of the team. Again, patience is key. The Pistons are far far far far and away from legitimate contendership, so unless you have an alternative goal, I don’t think signing Iggy or Smith is a good idea, much less a no brainer. 

  • Jul 4, 20133:49 pm
    by Chris

    Reply

    So IMO Smith would be a terrible signing for Detroit. He will conflict too much with Monroe and Drummond. Iggy would be good if he didn’t cost so much, and I wouldn’t mind Rudy Gay, but that won’t be happening either. I really hope Dumars instead goes for some role players this free agency to prepare our team for the long haul. Pick ups like Wilson Chandler, Wright, Landry, and resign Claderon (I was hoping we would enter the Bledsoe sweepstakes but that is out the window) would be great! Its a shame because Gores will prolly force Dumars into signing a big name this summer, where as if we stick with the current agenda we I think we will have a solid team in another season or so.

  • Jul 4, 20133:55 pm
    by RyanK

    Reply

    I agree that this would be a bad sign if this thing happens the way everyone thinks it will.  If we get him for below market value with a tradeable contract, this wouldn’t be a bad deal though.  I don’t know what he’ll sign for, but $8-9 million per season for 4 years would be doable and good for Detroit.  Four years for $58 million would be a bad deal.

    Another thing is adding Smith to the current roster and assuming no changes is a myopic way of looking at it.  If they could trade Monroe for Rondo as has been discussed on this board, move Smith into the 4 spot next to Drummond, let Knight and Pope fight it out at 2, and find a shooting 3 (perhaps that’s Middleton), this might work.  With Drummond and Monroe here, it doesn’t look great on paper though.

    Smith said the situation in Detroit was intriguing…I don’t think the guy is stupid, so why would he call it that if Joe didn’t disclose a plan to juggle things around to make it work better?

     

    • Jul 4, 20134:03 pm
      by RIvera

      Reply

      Excellent point. I truly believe that if they are going into free agency with the attempt to better the team dramatically then there must be something we dont know. I highly doubt Rondo is involved because Mr. Ainge has not been very happy at the thought of giving up Rondo but there are other scenarios that could arise. 

    • Jul 4, 20134:38 pm
      by oats

      Reply

      Moving Monroe for Rondo seems short sighted to me. Rondo is rehabbing a major injury, and there is no way to know how he’ll look after that. He also is only under contract for 2 years and might leave town pretty quickly. Detroit can hold onto Monroe for at least the next 5 years, and he is already a near All Star big man at the age of 22. He should keep getting better too. What’s more, Monroe is already a better player than Josh Smith. Smith will also likely sign for more than you are talking about. He’s probably going to sign for more than Monroe will be able to max at. So you are talking about moving a player because you can get an older, more expensive, and worse PF along with an injured PG that the team might not be able to retain. This doesn’t sound like a worthwhile risk in my opinion.

      • Jul 4, 20135:01 pm
        by RyanK

        Reply

        I don’t know about Monroe being a better player than Smith.  Defensively Monroe is frustrating to watch…he’s below average with his slow feet at this 50% of the game.  And there are big question marks about Monroe’s ability to guard the 4 spot.  Smith can definitely handle the job.

        I also don’t like how Monroe really steps up his game against Cousins…tells me he’s not giving it all on most nights.  Knight is talking about someone when he calls out teammate for loafing…

        It’s not all about Monroe being better than Smith…it’s also about how the pieces fit together.  I think Drummond’s game is better paired with Smith…unless Monroe’s 15 footer starts going down like a free throw.  Keith Langlois make it sound like that was the case last summer, but we all saw what the real story was.  

        The team doctors definitely need to evaluate Rondo.  I think he was one of the top two point guards in the league.  If he’s not anymore, then don’t do the trade.
         

        • Jul 4, 20135:48 pm
          by oats

          Reply

          Monroe is actually better at defending the pick and roll than Smith. That is probably the single most used way of getting PF’s points. He also is better defending spot up jumpers. He is absolutely awful defending the post, but there isn’t exactly a lot of PFs that get their points there anyways. Smith is the better shot blocker though. Monroe actually did do a good job defending the 4 in the limited time spent there this season, but I have to admit the sample size is too small to make definitive conclusions from it. Smith is clearly the better defender of the two, but it isn’t as big of an advantage as you’d expect.
           
          Then there is the other side of the court. Smith is a borderline harmful offensive player. About half his shots are jump shots, and he is terrible at them. He actually had a negative offensive win share, which is really hard to do. That means that win shares thinks he is harmful to his team’s offense. Monroe was a significantly more efficient scorer last year in what was by far his least efficient scoring year. His first two years he was significantly more efficient than Smith has ever been. I should mention that Smith actually had slightly better passing numbers last year, but the way Monroe is steadily improving as a passer suggests he will be surpassing Smith in that skill shortly. Monroe also has a slight free throw advantage. Last year Smith’s shooting at the line dropped to 52%, and if that is representative of how he will shoot next season then that changes to a huge free throw advantage for Monroe. Monroe also got to the line more often than Smith last season.
           
          I’d say those two things roughly offset each other. But Monroe is much better on the boards, and that tips things in his favor. As of right now he is better. He is also younger and likely to keep improving while Smith is at his peak.
           
          Now on to this fit nonsense. They shoot the same percentage on shots from 10′ on out. Actually, Monroe’s is .6% higher. Taking more shots he has no business taking does not make Smith a better fit. We also have very little evidence to suggest the fit is even a problem. They played pretty well together actually. What’s more, why are we so quick to declare that the rookie who started 10 games and missed 22 is the one to keep while the guy who put up a 16 and 10 is the one to go? Back injuries have derailed the career of a lot of big men. It honestly makes more sense to me to keep them both to see how Drummond fares in his development. What if Drummond can’t stay healthy and Monroe turns into a nightly 20 and 10? Both of those things look distinctly possible based on what we’ve seen of them so far.
           
          Last but not least, you in no way addressed the concerns with Rondo being a free agent in 2 years. Detroit is in complete control of Monroe for at least the next 5. Rondo is free to go in 2, and odds are the team won’t be so amazing that he feels like he should have to stay. That absolutely needs to be factored in.

          • Jul 4, 20135:56 pm
            by RyanK

            Make the trade contingent on Rondo signing an extension…  

          • Jul 4, 20135:58 pm
            by RyanK

            Where did the advanced stats?  Shooting % 10 feet out?

          • Jul 4, 20136:16 pm
            by RyanK

            Where did you get the advanced stats?

          • Jul 4, 20136:22 pm
            by oats

            As I understand it Rondo can’t be extended until after this upcoming season, so I don’t think there is a way to force him to extend after the team gets him.
             
            As for stats on shooting at different ranges, I use Basketball-Reference.com. When you look up players there are different tabs right after the bio section. One of them is marked shooting. and that pulls up shooting stats for various years. If I’m doing something like shooting outside of 10′, I just do a little bit of simple math to figure it out by adding up the numbers from the different distances. Here’s the one for Josh Smith for instance. It even includes a shot chart and the heat map for where he gets his points at. You can look at it and see that he only scores effectively at the hoop, a fact that is supported by his shooting numbers at various distances.

          • Jul 4, 20137:54 pm
            by jeff m

            I like how Drummond is 91% from the dunk, and 72% of his dunks were from assist. Drummond made 114 dunks out of 125 last year. Drummond got 83 of his dunks from assists.
            Greg Monroe is also 91% with dunks, having 74.4 from assist last year. Greg had 90% dunks, and 84.2% were from assist his first year in the league. Greg had 103 dunks out of 115 dunks for his whole 3 years, which comes in at about, 89% If my math was correct. Over the 3 years Monroe has got 80 dunks from assists. 
            So i don’t know why i did this lol. Looks like Drummond has the edge buy a wide marge in the dunking category, which we all already knew, now if he could just close the gap on rest of Monroe’s offensive capabilities some.
            I came a crossed the a the basketball reference thing this week as well, So far I’m really digging it.

  • Jul 4, 20134:01 pm
    by David

    Reply

    It kills me when fans say #1.) Drummond & Monroe weren’t a good fit, they played 1 year together and on top of that Drummond was hurt for a month in a half as well as not starting till he came back towards the end of the season #2 Pistons should have drafted Trey Burke, no they shouldn’t have, it might have been a good move if you’re trying to sell the most tickets but the same situation as Knight he hasn’t been there long and hasn’t been surrounded by shooters, with KCP there that might change, they also need to go out and get some guys that can help spread the floor. Sure Smith isn’t that guy, but I still think he can help the Pistons defensively. Joe Dumars did’t build his championship team with the biggest superstars, Smith plays great defense and I think would help in that regard but if they go that route likely means he would have to play the 3. Personally would prefer Igudola over Smith, but Smith is nothing to underestimate

  • Jul 4, 20134:08 pm
    by K ind 02

    Reply

    Listen Charlie V and BG were modef overpaid but we didn’t play them enough to say we got value for them.  IMHO the biggest thing a basketball team can do to be bad is to keep changing things around all the time.

    Changing coaches and lineups has been perfected here the last 5 years or so.  Just get five good players on the floor and tighten the rotation down to 8 dudes we are going to live and die with and let’s go.

  • Jul 4, 20134:09 pm
    by mike

    Reply

    Another thing is its premature to assume they would be signing Smith to play SF. 

    When you factor in the pursuit of Rondo with the pursuit of Smith, AND the pusuit of Gay… and also accept that its probably going to take Monroe to realistically get Rondo….It sounds to me like they are trying orchestrate a scenario where they end up with Rondo at PG, Gay at SF, and Smith at PF, and get all 3 to go with Drummond and KCP at C and SG.

     

    • Jul 4, 20134:47 pm
      by oats

      Reply

      I really, really hate that plan. It would be nice if the lineup had more than one guy who can hit a jump shot, especially if that one guy is an unproven rookie. It might be interesting to watch that team though. I’d rather my team not be the one that opts to make their offense resemble a train wreck, but I don’t know if I could look away. Then again, I don’t know if I’d be able to watch either.

      • Jul 4, 20135:44 pm
        by mike

        Reply

        Thats cool man, you can go follow the Suns and watch them shoot jumpshots all day and play no defense.

        Real Pistons fans know the importance of defense over offense, and a lineup of Rondo/KCP/Gay/Smith/Drummond would probably be the best defensive starting 5 in the league, if not one of the top 3. And just to correct you, it would feature 2 guys who can hit a jump shot – KCP and Gay. Not to mention a whole bevy of shooters that we will have off the bench like Knight, Singler, Middleton, and more depending who else we sign.

        The game is 48 min and you are allowed to play up to 12 players. So to act like if we don’t have a ton of shooters in the lineup to start games, that we will never have shooting, is just a very naive way of thinking.

        You win with defense.You start games setting the tone defensively. Then you can bring in shooters off the bench as need be as the game goes on for more offense. Regardless, you have 2 shooters in the starting lineup already, which is exactly enough. Not to mention it would be foolish to think a team with Rondo, Smith, Gay, and Drummond couldn’t score – All 4 great offensive impact players. To call an offense with that much talent a train wreck is just flat out idiotic, sorry but its true.

        • Jul 4, 20136:01 pm
          by oats

          Reply

          I’m not against defense. I love defensive basketball. It’s a little hard to call that a great defensive lineup though. Rondo is coming off an injury, KCP is a rookie, and Gay is a bad defensive player. It could be really good, but it might be awful. I also want my team to not be the worst scoring team in the league. You can talk up bench scoring all you want, but if you think the 4 best players on the team aren’t all playing about 30 minutes each then you are delusional. The only guy that wouldn’t be expected to play that much is KCP, who is also the only one that can actually shoot. So for about 60% of the game the team would likely have at least 3 guys with no range. That doesn’t work.
           
          2 shooters is absolutely not enough. There have actually been studies on this, and the answer is you need to have 3 guys with some range at all times or the offense is awful. What’s more, you don’t have 2 shooters in that starting lineup. You have one, and only if KCP is hitting shots as a rookie which shouldn’t be considered a guarantee. No one else in that lineup has good range. The next best is Rudy Gay’s 15′ range. That would work from a 4, but it isn’t enough to count as a floor spacer from a perimeter player though. That lineup would be a disaster on offense because every team in the league would have 4 defenders with a foot in the paint at all times and the team wouldn’t be able to shoot over them.

  • Jul 4, 20134:14 pm
    by Ozzie-Moto

    Reply

    I have a feeling that there a bit of a “show” going on here.   Right out of the gate it seemed that Detroit made it clear they were interested in: Iggy, Smith, JR, Dumars. Bledsoe, Evans, Granger,  OJ Mayo, Gay. Dwight Howard,  labron, Magic, MJ, Wilt , Bill Russell, Payton Manning, Babe Ruth and Spartacus….  Get my point.  White part of this is probably good strategy as it is important that free agents feel you really going to make a push for more than one new part, but honestly part of this is directed to the fans and is just a bunch of misdirection to make everyone thing that there really going to do something ….. which we really should wait and see….. I still see more teams with money to spend than good players to add ….  Hope we get a good piece and don’t over pay…… Iggy already turned down more than we be sane to pay him and most likely will go back to Denver .. Smith to which ever Tx team does not get Dwight. T Evens gone to NOLA. OJ to the bucks… few days we will be begging J Caldoron to come back with everyone else off the board 

  • Jul 4, 20134:34 pm
    by Jay wiz

    Reply

    everyone is saying not to spend and keep the cap room til next year, when in reality we have to spend $20mill to hot the cap floor under the new CBA. So I’m curious to hear some plans on know to spend money this year that keeps the space for next year with limited roster openings….sign guys like Kaman to 1yr/$12mill? The money NEEDS to be spent, can’t just say no to every player the Pistons get linked to that makes over $2mill a year

    • Jul 4, 20135:21 pm
      by oats

      Reply

      Yes, spending the money on guys like Kaman or Mike Dunleavy on a one year deal makes more sense than locking up salary long term on guys that don’t fit in with the rest of the roster. Needing to hit a salary minimum does not justify giving out bad contracts that will sit on the books for several years. You don’t screw up the next 4 years because the team had a hard time getting to the floor this one time. That doesn’t make sense.

      • Jul 4, 20135:49 pm
        by mike

        Reply

        Yeah, not signing guys because they don’t fit with a roster that is in the midst over a complete overhaul makes a lot of sense…

        Let judge how guys fit with players who they may never be playing with, and then decide they aren’t good fits because of it.

        • Jul 4, 20136:03 pm
          by oats

          Reply

          We don’t have a full roster, that’s true. We have 2 players to build around though. It’s not exactly hard to figure out that the plan should be to get players that can fit around Monroe and Drummond.

  • Jul 4, 20135:29 pm
    by Taylor

    Reply

    Pistons should sign Brandon Wright on a 4 year deal worth 12 million dollars, then go after Dorrel Wright and give him a 3 year deal for 15 million to give them outside shooting (career 37 percent shooter and solid defender at 6 ft 9) and then sign Monroe to a 4 year deal worth 48 million dollars that is back loaded.

    • Jul 4, 20136:00 pm
      by Max

      Reply

      Sounds like a worse than mediocre plan that can only produce mediocrity to me. 

      • Jul 4, 20137:51 pm
        by D_S_V

        Reply

        Doesn’t mediocrity include getting easily bounced from the playoffs as a 6-8th seed without much room for improvement? I see adding these high profile FAs helping us become the Bucks/76ers of the next 4 years without flexibility to improve. Bottom line – I think Iggy and Smith are super talented, but I’d much rather be a team like Houston adding them than Detroit. 

        • Jul 4, 20139:33 pm
          by mike

          Reply

          How would a team with Rondo, Josh Smith, and Drummond max out as a 6th seed?

          Thats probably the best Big 3 in the talent after MIA talent wise. What 3 players do the Bucks/76ers have that even come close to that trio of talent?

          So how would we be just like those teams when we have 3 players who each by themselves are more talented than anybody on either of those teams? 

          And how does HOU have more talent than us? If we trade Moose for Rondo, we will be way more attractive than HOU.

          • Jul 5, 20137:25 am
            by D_S_V

            IMO I think the difference is that Drummond’s career arc is not in line with Smith and Rondo, he’s not near his prime yet. Believe me I drank all the Drummond koolaid available last year, but he has a lot of improvement to make before he can be considered the star that I think he showed he can become. So there’s that. Also, Smith played on some teams with considerable talent around him and he never smelled the ECF, and jury will be out on Rondo as to how successful he will be without 3 future HOFers on the court with him, something the Pistons would have a hard time putting together.

            Houston has James Harden, a bonafide superstar just beginning his prime. Houston also has a team full of valuable, tradeable contracts that other teams would actually consider desirable. 

            Drafting your cornerstone talent is important, and it appears the Pistons may have done that w/Monroe and Drummond, but now I think we have to wait and see what we have with those two playing together, rather than being impatient and thinking we can add the final pieces right now. There may not be huge gap between Detroit and a 6th seed, or even higher, but there’s an ocean between the Pistons and a team like the Pacers. Patience.

  • Jul 4, 20136:26 pm
    by Pablo

    Reply

    Its a diferent situation , in 2009 . The already had RIP , a good SG, and give a contract to another SG. Now We don have any proven veteran , at 3 perimeter positons. So any player could be an upgrade. 

    Josh Smith could be our Start PF , and Drummond could play very good minutes at come off the bench. And Smith could play some minute at SF , to defender players like Lebron , Durant. Thats why I dont wanna Iggy, is more SG , and we had KCP, Knight , Stuckey , Singler,English 

  • Jul 4, 20136:40 pm
    by I HATE FRANK

    Reply

    Smith is the best option…Points, Rebs, Ast, Stls, Blocks ….

    End of the day you’ll get a guy based on his career 17ppg 8rebs 3.5 ast 1.5blks 1.5steals … 45-46% 30% 3′s …

    Everyone is overthinking this …. Seriously it comes down to the 1000th time … Singler vs Josh Smith

    HUGE!!!!! Upgrade …  

    • Jul 4, 20137:24 pm
      by oats

      Reply

      Mike Dunleavy is also a huge upgrade on Singler without spending a lot of long term money. Upgrading off Singler is a pretty low bar to hurdle for giving out a monster contract. For the kind of money Smith will sign I want someone that I’m ok playing with the 2 best players on the team. If you haven’t noticed, yes I think Smith would be the 3rd best player in Detroit. Maybe he has a year where he stays ahead of Drummond, but I’d bet against it.

      • Jul 4, 201311:23 pm
        by I HATE FRANK

        Reply

        Singler would not make the Pistons better defensively…and he does not have take over game ability …

        My point is either Iggy,Josh Smith or Gay…makes the pistons a much,Much better team…

        So its no reason to overthink signing or trade for any one of those players…we are being way to picky… 

        • Jul 5, 20131:05 am
          by oats

          Reply

          I think you are overselling the importance of talent over fit, especially when talking about someone who isn’t one of the top 2 players on the team. None of those guys are better than Monroe and Drummond, or if they are they won’t be within 2 years. Having a team that fits together in a sound matter is what propelled the Spurs into the finals. Danny Green and Kawhi Leonard are definitely talented players, but at this stage in their development it is the way the fit into the whole that makes them really valuable. Conversely, Smith is a good player but would be a poor fit. The team would be less than the sum of it’s parts with him.
           
          Iggy is potentially not a good fit, but more importantly he’s a 30 year player that relies heavily on athleticism and may be showing signs of decline. That is a huge red flag about offering him the kind of deal he is looking for. Smith is a rather bad fit, unless he is to be a backup 4 that gets maybe 5 minutes a game at the 3. I’m talking about giving him about 25 minutes a game here. He will either be drastically overpaid or overpaid and asked to fill a role that he is aggressively terrible at.
           
          Rudy Gay is not only a bad fit, he isn’t that talented either. He’s a pretty middling talent to be honest, and not nearly as big of an upgrade over Stuckey as most seem to tthink. With the exception of last year, their in their prime per 36 numbers are remarkably similar. I feel like it’s not crazy to suggest that if he was used properly that Stuckey could recover somewhat and go back to narrowing the gap between them. Rudy is a guy that is good at taking shots but not good at making them. I get that he’s a SF and Stuckey isn’t, which does help his value to the team, but that isn’t enough to make him worth his ridiculous contract. I would rather take my lumps with Middleton starting at the 3 than deal with Gay’s contract.

          • Jul 5, 20132:33 am
            by I HATE FRANK

            You’re down playing there talent and what they can bring to the Pistons…just to keep talking about fit ….

            Our team was horrible last year, because we had no go to player…. “Fit” is for a team challenging for the finals or teams with an idenity…. You can workout “Fit”… The pistons still have no idenity, we even know how Dre and GREG “Fit” ….

            Like said you guys are overthinking a talent upgrade  

          • Jul 5, 20133:53 am
            by oats

            Value to a team is a combination of fit and talent. You can’t just ignore fit when determining value. Fit always should come into play when talking about guys making more than $14 million. Not thinking about fit is just setting the team up to have a disastrous cap situation. Ignore fit on draft day when you have a hard time figuring out what kind of player the guy will be in the NBA. You absolutely worry about fit when spending big money on relatively known quantities.  Trades and free agency should be about either building a team or acquiring easily movable assets. $14 million deals are not that easily movable for similar value. Teams moving these guys almost always lose the trade. It’s easier to move smaller assets to fix the problem than to move one albatross.
             
            As for the team having no identity, that is only partially true. The identity has been started. We know the team has two big men that can’t shoot jumpers but are going to be the strength of the team. They are obviously the strength because they are better than every player Detroit has been linked to, and every move should take into account the idea of maximizing these two. So knowing that we have some idea of what to look for. One of those things is floor spacing, which is required for making a half court offense work. I’m already back to the bad fit thing.

  • Jul 4, 20136:42 pm
    by Ryan Kelly

    Reply

    many guys want a dude like Kyle Korver on a cheap two year deal….lol…    Guess what he just signed with Atlanta.    Atlanta.   Why?    They gave him 4 years at 26 million.   and he’s 32!    That’s the point right there.   There is no such thing as a good player on a cheap short contract.   An agent would never go for that.   Only a couple players a year are had like that and it’s usually cause the agent f’d up.  

  • Jul 4, 20136:51 pm
    by Ryan Kelly

    Reply

    any names of players that would sign for one year at say 5,6,7,8 million.????    Really the only players that do that are completely desperate.  Or like I said the agent f’d up badly.  Another name mentioned mike dunleavy.  Signed with bulls and not for 1 year.   I wouldn’t mind it but Lets see some names for this genius idea.    

    • Jul 4, 20137:52 pm
      by oats

      Reply

      Honestly, it’s pretty much impossible to name them this early. You can name guys that might be interested in it, but the guys that will are the ones that are waiting on a better deal first. If you want someone who might consider it then there are several. A partial list of guys that may be up for it: Carlos Delfino, Chauncey Billups, Randy Foye, Roger Mason Jr, Beno Urdih, Chris Kaman, Chris Copeland, Earl Watson, Anthony Morrow, Ronnie Brewer, Francisco Garcia, Aaron Brooks, Lamar Odom, Kirilenko, DeJuan Blair, DeSagana Diop, Sam Dalembert, Joel Pryzbilla, and Chris Anderson. I’d say most of them get multiple year deals. I wouldn’t be surprised if some of them are off the market and I’m just paying close enough attention to it to know that. Someone on that list would likely take a strong 1 year offer if they got it though.
       
      I should also add that Dallas probably still wouldn’t mind dumping Marion’s contract if the goal is to find a one year stop gap at the position and take on some salary. I’m certain there are more contracts that teams would be willing to dump but wouldn’t be a huge problem for Detroit in the long term, and Detroit might be able to add some kind of assets for taking them on.
       
      I’d also say the goal isn’t to just load up on guys from that list of potential additions. We’re talking about adding maybe one of them to push the team up to the minimum after spending money on someone who makes more sense. Jose Calderon seems like the most likely target for some of that cap space, although I’d prefer they use it on Jeff Teague. If neither of them are the guy then Jarrett Jack would also be a candidate. I’d also be interested in Dorrell Wright, Marreese Speights, or Carl Landry to take up some of it too. There’s more options than those guys, but I think you get the point.

      • Jul 4, 201310:54 pm
        by Max

        Reply

        I’d rather have Iggy or Smith alone than any combination of six players in your post. 

        • Jul 5, 20131:07 am
          by oats

          Reply

          I’d rather have Calderon than Iggy or Smith. It isn’t close for me either, at least not at the contracts Iggy and Smith will likely get. If they signed for about $9 million a year then that changes things, but they won’t.

          • Jul 5, 20132:26 am
            by I HATE FRANK

            Calderon is not the answer…your being a basketball purist …

            Calderon didn’t win in Toronto and He didn’t make the Pistons better… He is solid player …not Great or good …

            The NBA you would build the Pistons for no longer exist… You need a player that can create his own shot …. At the wing position I’m sorry … I really do understand your view but just strongly disagree…

             

          • Jul 5, 20133:14 am
            by oats

            You are seriously confused on how I see the league then. I don’t know what you think I’m seeing, but I’m pretty up on the current trends for a laymen. The league is pushing strong in direction of passing and 3 point shooting. It actually is moving away from isolation basketball the last couple years. Even the Heat have a ton of movement and passing before they have LeBron attack the basket. The reason is simple, you need those things to attack these aggressive help defenses. That’s kind of exactly what Calderon does by the way, he passes and shoots 3s. The entire playoffs was about teams trying to deal with spacing issues. Indiana and Memphis both lost due to the fact that they couldn’t shoot the 3 consistently. Indiana actually pushed Miami only when Miami’s 3 point shooting abandoned them, but lost every game that Miami shot well. I hate using Dumars to back me up when he’s been rumored to be interested in these guys that can’t shoot, but this is exactly what he was talking about after the KCP pick when he talked about getting athletic shooters.
             
            By the way, Smith is awful at creating his own shot. He tends to take jumpers that he has no business taking. Iggy isn’t a lot better with that either, although he is marginally better. But this argument that the league is about wing players creating shots for themselves completely ignores that the Spurs were arguably the better team in the finals and none of their wings do that. Well, I guess Manu sort of does, but he wasn’t exactly integral to their playoff run. There is no requirement for wings to create for themselves. That is nonsense. If you have wings that are good at that then you let them do it. If you don’t then you work in other ways. Since we aren’t talking about anyone who is actually good at that it is a pretty pointless argument though.

  • Jul 4, 20137:19 pm
    by Crispus

    Reply

    Sounds like Golden State is having a fire sale. Anyone we want there?

    Would Andrei Kirilenko help us out at SF? He’s old, but well rounded.

    • Jul 4, 20137:51 pm
      by haydzzz

      Reply

      Id want joe to take all of their sales if he could somehow get harrison barnes lol

    • Jul 4, 20138:02 pm
      by oats

      Reply

      They are supposed to be protecting Barnes and Thompson, so I doubt it. I’d take on two of their bad deals for one of them. But their pick they are offering will likely be out in the 20′s someplace, and Detroit just gave up a much better pick than that to get cap space this year. Maybe it makes sense if the team adds 2 or 3 picks, but I really don’t see that happening either.

    • Jul 4, 20138:11 pm
      by jeff m

      Reply

      Kirilenko opted out of a 10 million dollar contract. Seems to me like he probably wants to be on a contender now. Would any team give him more then 10 mil? Would a 2 year 11 mil contract be good for a guy his age. He is in the same boat as josh smith with not being able to hit threes, at a decent clip, but brings good defense.

  • Jul 4, 20138:09 pm
    by Terrell

    Reply

    I’m thinking….If we do sign Smith then Monroe should be a great trade chip to get Rondo. Somehow I think the pistons will end up with Gay. 
    With the starting line up of:

    Pg:Rondo
    Sg:Caldwell-Pope
    Sf:Gay
    Pf:Smith
    C:Drummond

    That will give me hope for the season. But do you really think this is unlikely? Maybe not! Ithink there aee eeady deals in play, they’re just waiting on Smith to sign. But Joe needs to get a verbal commitment because it just as well looks like the not so sexy Detroit Pistons cant even buy a star.

  • Jul 4, 20138:27 pm
    by gmehl

    Reply

    Hey has anyone else heard the rumors that we might be the 3rd team that is after Chris Copeland? I know he isn’t the sexy choice for many but I think he could hold down the SF spot if Joe decides not to blow all our cap space.

    http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/228623/Copeland-Weighing-Offers-From-Lakers-Pacers-Unknown-Team 

    • Jul 5, 20132:55 am
      by oats

      Reply

      I’d be good with that. Copeland can shoot. I’d be willing to take a gamble on him extending his production out with more minutes.

      • Jul 5, 20134:25 am
        by gmehl

        Reply

        Yep I am a fan too and even though he is 29 (I think) he could be had on a cheaper deal than Smith or Iggy. 

        • Jul 5, 201310:51 am
          by sebastian

          Reply

          Chris Copeland? Dam(n) you guys are getting desperate, willing to take Free Agent crumbs.

          • Jul 5, 20132:15 pm
            by oats

            Dude shot 42% on 3s last season, and he put up 20 points per 36 minutes. If he held his pace when extended out to 32 minutes he’d put up 18 points. I don’t think he holds that pace, but 14 points in 32 minutes and good shooting numbers sounds reasonable for him. I’m on board for that.

  • Jul 4, 20138:27 pm
    by ryan

    Reply

    I don’t think Josh Smith is a good fit here no matter who is on the roster because he’s never displayed a good attitude or played intelligently maximizing his impact by playing to his skill set. I hope that he signs with Houston or Dallas or any other team.

    I also think the comparison to Ben Gordon and Charlie Villanueva is very appropriate. Ben Gordon was another inefficient player asking for two much money when he signed here. I knew it would turn out horribly and then it turned out far worse than I imagined.

    My view is and has been all along that we should build around Brandon Knight, Greg Monroe and Andre Drummond. I believe we already have a number of guys who we can build with around them and that we should evaluate every piece we add in the context of how they’ll fit with this core.

    We need to spend some money so the Wright brothers could be helpful, Jose Calderon or Chauncey Billups could be good useful too. If he wants to sign here Andre Iguodala is a good player with a positive track record who could fit in well.

    I’d like to see us help Houston save money by trading for Omer Asik if the deal is right. Asik would help make us a monster defensively and he fits with this core. I’d also like to see us get into serious talks with the Bulls about Luol Deng because they don’t want to pay the luxury tax and he is a guy you can build with. Rodney Stuckey and Jonas Jerebko would bring their pay roll down a bit and give them some useable assets. I hope and believe that Joe Dumars is exploring trades like this.

    So good luck to Josh Smith I hope that Houston (or wherever) works out well and good luck to Joe Dumars I hope that you build wisely.

  • Jul 4, 20139:01 pm
    by alex

    Reply

    Time for the pistons to absorb one of the contracts the warriors are trying to move.  If we do that, we can get them to include harrison barnes in deal to come play smallforward.  Resign calderon and have a lot of expiring contracts for next offseason.

    • Jul 4, 20139:16 pm
      by haydzzz

      Reply

      getting harrison barnes and going full youth movement would be gold
       

    • Jul 4, 20139:21 pm
      by ryan

      Reply

      That would be a brilliant move. Seems unlikely but it’d be brilliant.

    • Jul 4, 201310:19 pm
      by gmehl

      Reply

      I’d take Bogut in a trade if they threw in Barnes. Bogut will be a UFA in 2014 and can be easily flipped. I also don’t think he is as injury prone as everyone thinks. His injuries were all bad luck rather than his body breaking down and I think with a good season under his belt he could become a valuable trade chip come 2014. Rather than settle for Smith or Iggy maybe this should be the route Joe should try so we can get the young wing (Barnes) that we need. I can’t see the Warriors parting with Barnes but I guess if they want Dwight then they will have to give up something. Hey we might as well see if we can get a future 1st rounder off them too.

  • Jul 4, 20139:47 pm
    by Grizz

    Reply

    I HATE FRANK wrote:Only the Heat because of Lebron can overcome not having a balanced team…and they probably should have lost to the spurs in game 6 … A much more balanced team

    IHF, Good posts once again .. with just this improvement suggested .. CROSS OUT “PROBABLY” and you got it perfect. Actually .. as long as they allow LBJ to push people out of the way with his forearm on offense and defense and give him calls where he simply dives to the floor anytime he is about to make a bad play .. no one will defeat the C-Heat.  CNNSI wrote an entire article on a way ridiculous FLOP by LBJ on defense vs the Pacers in the ECFs 2013, and he never even received a warning .. 

    And you better know that even then, the rest of the C-Heat will be supported if a crucial sham win is needed. Even the announcers stated Ginoboli had been fouled by Allen with 2 secs to go in Game 6, and it sure looked like Bosch jumped forward into Greene on that last 3 point shot.  Flawed but good teams (no center, no pg) with great players become legendary with 3 referees in their pocked and David Stern in their rear. Just a few other cases, the 2006 ECFs and 2011 ECFs got all the same kind of Stern rigged plays the C-Heat could ever ask for.

    The NBA knows which glamor teams and glamor players to support for the greatest amount of money and “prestige.” 

  • Jul 4, 201310:20 pm
    by BooG

    Reply

    I’d like to see us sign Iguodala, Brandan Wright or Marreese Speights, Billups or Jarrett Jack, Kirilenko, Randy Foye, etc… Any of these guys would be great pick-ups. Our defense would vastly improve which is what we need to really contend for a playoff spot. And we’d have enough playmakers to give other teams problems.

    The right mixture of youth & veterans will gurantee our return to the playoffs. I see the 6th or 7th seed with the right moves. Hopefully things work out. I like our young nucleus of Knight, KCP, Monroe & Drummond. The focus should be to build around them each year. 

  • Jul 4, 201310:56 pm
    by Ryan Kelly

    Reply

    Calderon to the Lakers??   Now that would suck.   Or Houston.   Backup plan should be jarret jack.  

  • Jul 4, 201310:57 pm
    by Adam

    Reply

    Let me start by saying that I love Monroe and Drummond. Stats seems to be fair when playing together, and they are both great young cornerstones that I truly feel the Pistons should build the next 7-10 years of their franchise around.

    As for Josh Smith, I think it’s clear his best position is the 4. Adding him does not turn the Pistons into title contenders at any point in the duration (4 years I would assume it would take to get him) of his contract, whether Rondo is added or not. It could turn the Pistons intoa 4- or 5-seed with Rondo. Key word: could. In all likelihood, the Pistons would get stuck in mediocrity with Smith and Rondo. With just Smith, the Pistons would get stuck in the lottery, in my opinion.

    The Pistons have worked for a few years to put together a title contender, not just a playoff team. A little more patience with Monroe, Drummond, and Knight will yield the best opportunity for this.

    The one name that I think would help the Pistons (above Smith, Iguodala, Gay, and the other names that have been floated about with this organization): Danny Granger. Not sure how he fits defensively, but with Paul George taking over at SF in Indiana, Granger could be on the move either via trade this year or free agency next year. Granger is a proven scorer who can do so in multiple ways, including perimeter shooting. He has also been a part of that gritty Indiana defense, and although he isn’t George, Iguodala, or any of the elite SF defenders, I believe he is at least average.

    That would leave a starting 5 for 2014-15 of:
    PG Knight
    SG Caldwell-Pope
    SF Granger
    PF Monroe
    C Drummond
    With some cap room to sign other bench pieces in addition to the young ones already on the roster. Looks like an immediate playoff roster with the potential to grow into a championship, to me.

    • Jul 5, 20132:02 am
      by oats

      Reply

      I doubt Detroit gets Granger without including Knight. The idea behind Indiana potentially trading Granger is that he is really expensive to be a bench scorer, and maybe a cheaper guy could give most of that production while saving a ton of money. I’d try trading for Granger with Stuckey and Singler, but I think they turn that down because it isn’t enough savings and Stuckey was bad last year. I’m betting they would insist on Knight and Singler.

  • Jul 4, 201310:57 pm
    by Blocks by Dre

    Reply

    Calderon wants to play with Howard  where ever he goes so if its Houston, I expect a sign and trade with Jose and Lin

  • Jul 5, 20132:44 am
    by neutes

    Reply

    Power Forwards that shoot 46% and turn the ball over 3 times per game…BRING THEM TO SOMEONE ELSE

  • Jul 5, 20132:52 am
    by jack

    Reply

    Smith is 28 where as Monroe is 22.  If the pistons sign smith to a 4 year deal, and then trade Monroe for a pg or sf, half the front line will be past prime in 2-3 years.  Whereas if they stand pat Monroe Drummond can grow together and dominate as soon as next season.  And they will dominate, IMO.

  • Jul 5, 20134:38 am
    by Zeiram

    Reply

    The point of most writers in the 5 on 5 WASN´T however that the Smith signing would be a bad fit because Dumars once signed Charlie V and Gordon and they didn´t pan out. The reasoning was that Smith would be a bad fit because a) he is best as a small ball PF which makes him a positional redundancy to Monroe and b) the finals once again showed that spacing is very important. Adding Smith a non-shooter at best (and a willing but catastrophic shooter at worst) to a lineup already using two non-shooters in Monroe and Drummond would be desastrous for the offense (we´d be basically Memphis 2 and likely to be destroyed by any team that uses a Spurs defensive approach).
    I used to be slightly in favor of getting Smith at the right price because contrary to Charlie V and Gordon he is a proven player who brings value at his current production on top of his potential for improvement. But actually reading the fit reasons from ESPN I now am against the pickup. If we are going to be impatient and want to fast track to (regular season) success I would rather have us make a go at Danny Granger.

  • Jul 5, 201310:26 am
    by Ryan Kelly

    Reply

    Definitely rather have granger.   But can he walk straight with his knee?   And does Indy want to dump him in their division.  ?

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