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Joe Dumars calls Andre Drummond Pistons’ only untouchable player, but Greg Monroe not made available either

Joe Dumars, via Vincent Goodwill of The Detroit News:

“There are guys who, a pecking order of things we would or wouldn’t do, Drummond is certainly one of those guys we wouldn’t move,” said Dumars, who wouldn’t claim anyone else as “untouchable”.

Zach Lowe of Grantland:

some teams inquired about Monroe before the draft and were met with a flat "no" as to his availability.

You can read my thoughts at ProBasketballTalk.

49 Comments

  • Jul 17, 20136:12 pm
    by Zeiramsy

    Reply

    The last two articles were short quotes and a link to probasketballtalk. Should we just go to this site immediately  or is this still a real blog.

    Not to be too bitter but the constant redirects to other sources of your writing on this site feel like this product/blog isn´t valued anymore by it´s creators and so we as readers shouldn´t value it anymore as well.  

    • Jul 17, 20136:18 pm
      by Zeiramsy

      Reply

      On a re-read this sounds a tad too mean. I still like this blog and buzzing activity in comparison to other (truehoop) blogs. The constant redirects are a negative however.

      • Jul 17, 20136:23 pm
        by BC

        Reply

        Agreed, I’d much rather the article on Piston Powered instead of following links.

        • Jul 17, 201311:29 pm
          by Dan Feldman

          Reply

          I’d assume, if you want to read PistonPowered, that’s because you enjoy reading me, Patrick, J.M., Brady and/or Jameson. Sometimes now, I also write for other outlets, but that’s still my writing.

          I understand clicking a link is a slight inconvenience, but I think that outweighs the cost of me re-writing an article just to convey the same thoughts. That just seems like a waste.

          • Jul 17, 201311:34 pm
            by Max

            It’s not like the site doesn’t provide other links to Piston related articles.   What’s the downside?  Good for Dan if he can branch out and extend his sphere of influence.      

          • Jul 18, 20131:00 am
            by ffz

            lol cant you just copy and paste since its your own writing its technically not plagiarism

          • Jul 18, 20133:54 am
            by Zeiramsy

            As I said my first comment was too harsh. I do come here because I like to read the writings of all pistonpowered authors. Yet the redirects are a bit too common recently. This can be an annoyance (especially if you read a lot mobile or via feedreader) but goes beyond that. As I said it is a value thing. No I do not expect you to copy pase or rewrite your thougts. But I would prefer another pistonpowered writer offer his thoughts on this topic while also redirecting to you.

            Alas I understand this isn´t always possible and if you have to chance to be compensated for your work (which is great) then you should go for it.

            All this to say I come here for pistonpowered because it has become a valued brand for me. And even though it shouldn’t make a difference where I read your stuff I´d much rather read it here than elsewhere for purely sentimental (and easily ignorable) reasons.

          • Jul 18, 20134:33 am
            by Dan Feldman

            Thanks, Max.

          • Jul 18, 20134:37 am
            by Dan Feldman

            ffz, I’m sure this doesn’t really interest you or readers, but in the writing world, that’s a clear case of plagiarism. Yes, self-plagiarism is a thing. It’s not a thing I expect readers to care about, but in my profession, it’s a big deal. 

          • Jul 18, 20134:41 am
            by Dan Feldman

            Zeiramsy, I’m truly glad to hear PistonPowered has such sentimental value to you.

            How much content we produce, to a degree, is a zero-sum game. J.M. has a great post coming later this morning about how Josh Smith fits. If he were writing about which Pistons are untouchable, he might not have time to do that post.

            I understand clicking an extra link is convenient, and we’re constantly thinking about better ways to deliver our content, but right now, I don’t see a better alternative. 

          • Jul 18, 20138:02 am
            by RyanK

            I read because I can get a different opinion and because you post articles from sources that I would have missed.  It’s hard to get good material to read this time of year about the team.  

            It doesn’t matter if you refer me to another site to look at your article…as long as you don’t refer me to a site that loads a bunch of spyware on my computer.  Hopefully you’re double dipping with revenue from banner ads…I would.

          • Jul 18, 20135:23 pm
            by tarsier

            Why is it not ok to plagiarize yourself? This concept baffles me.

          • Jul 19, 20136:33 am
            by Dan Feldman

            There are a couple layers of self-plagiarism.

            The first, what was suggested here, is improper, because NBC owns the content I provide for its site. Even though they’re my words, NBC owns them, and copying them here without attribution would be a violation. And attributing would permit only an excerpt, not a full re-posting.

            The second would be me copying part of an old PistonPowered article, without attribution, and using it in a new PistonPowered article. This is improper, because it misleads readers who believe they are seeing new content. That’s why, even when it’s content I wrote for the same site, I still use a link and block quote when excerpting an old PP article.

          • Jul 19, 20138:13 am
            by Mark

            Boy, you guys are getting soft – complaining about clicking another link?  Keep up the great work on a great site guys.  People have issues if clicking a mouse button is too much work.

    • Jul 17, 20138:23 pm
      by Byron

      Reply

      I don’t mind it. It’s nice to know Dan’s actually being compensated for his work, and you can check out more league-oriented comments on the other site and Pistons comments here.

    • Jul 17, 20139:25 pm
      by gmehl

      Reply

      @Zeiramsy I disagree with your first post because not all of us scan every basketball site out there so its good when you get a link that brings an update to your attention. However I can understand your frustration if you’ve already heard of a story mentioned for the 3rd or 4th time especially if its only a rumor. I usually get my Piston/NBA news from PistonPowered, RealGM, Detroit Bad Boys, Mlive, Freep and Prosport daily and as far as i’m concerned any piston news is great to hear about especially over a quiet off season.

      • Jul 17, 201310:02 pm
        by Travis

        Reply

        ^This^
        I use the Pulse app, so I have a live feed of 12 NBA sources – Yahoo, Yardbarker, Goodwill, Ellis, PP, DBB, Bleacher, etc. 

    • Jul 18, 201312:54 am
      by Quin

      Reply

      I tried the blog for The Houston Rockets and it’s next to impossible to comment on the thing. I much prefer this. They make you jump through all kind of hoops, including answering the question “who is the Rockets best player,” to which you were required to respond James Harden. Ridiculous.

  • Jul 17, 20136:25 pm
    by Otis

    Reply

    1) The key to that second quote is: “…before the draft.” Which means “before Josh Smith.” So that makes sense. With or without Smith, I think it would be clear that Monroe and Drummond aren’t a good fit together. Now that he’s here, we’ve got two of our best three players (Moose and Smith) playing out of position, and our top three players probably can’t play together. So to call Monroe untouchable is absurd. I’m guessing that chances are better than 50/50 that trading him ends up making more sense than extending him to the biggest contract BY A MILE in franchise history.

    • Jul 17, 201310:26 pm
      by oats

      Reply

      You are overstating Monroe’s expected salary. The team only has one 5 year deal to hand out, and they’ll likely save that for Drummond. The salary cap this year jumped by 2 million, so let’s assume that is what happens next year too. That will give Monroe’s max deal at about 4 years and $60 million, and that’s assuming he actually gets the max. Josh Smth just got paid a 4 year and $56 million contract, so it isn’t that much more money.

      • Jul 18, 20131:15 am
        by Otis

        Reply

        I just looked up that five year thing. It doesn’t even really make sense to me, but I guess that only makes it more tempting to move monroe, because you’re offering a team a guy worth giving a five year deal… as long as he’s playing center. Anyways, I know money has been different lately (I always thought Maxiell’s 5 mil per was reasonable, but even though he’s coming off some decent seasons I expect him to maybe make 3 max) but I still think monroe’s contract is still going to be bigger than that.
         
        Anyhow, you’re talking to someone who doesn’t have any faith in the drummond-monroe partnership. I strongly advocate trading monroe for legit perimeter help.

        • Jul 18, 20132:54 am
          by oats

          Reply

          Actually, it looks like you are right and I didn’t account for annual raises. I think the current max for a guy on his post rookie deal is about $64 million over 4 years. So if the cap goes up by the same amount as it did this season then it will be about 4 years and $67 million. I think I’m doing that right.
           
          I do think $60 million is probably closer to the deal he will get though. Admittedly it was a smaller salary cap when he got it, but Hibbert was maxed at $58 million. That seems like a decent reference point for figuring out Monroe’s value as Monroe has not proven to be more valuable than Hibbert was when Roy got his deal. He’s hitting free agency in a potentially busy year for free agency, and as an RFA there is a decent chance that no one bothers offering him the a bigger deal than that $60 millio.

          • Jul 19, 20132:32 pm
            by Otis

            @Oats: There is no chance whatsoever that Monroe signs here for anything less than the max, and to think otherwise is folly. For one thing, he’s ABSOLUTELY NOT going to be our designated “five year max” player, because that honor is going to Drummond. If you want to keep Monroe and make him happy, you won’t do it for less than the max. Furthermore, for a team in need of a center, he’s absolutely worth the max and will get it from somebody.
             
            Why does everyone insist on living in a fantasy world where Monroe’s passing ability spreads the floor and he’ll stay here at a discount even after we’ve let him know he’s second fiddle at best. I don’t get it. You, like most fans, seem to be looking at everything from a best-case-scenario point of view. But it rarely ever works that way. I’m not high on Monroe IN THE LEAST, but he’s going to get max money from somebody. And as long as they play him at center (which they will) it won’t be a bad signing.

  • Jul 17, 20136:48 pm
    by Eric

    Reply

    I don’t find it at all. If it wasn’t for these short update posts I would never find these articles or quotes.

  • Jul 17, 20137:31 pm
    by RyanK

    Reply

    I think Monroe is gone.  Not just for the fact that there’s overlap at PF with Smith, but also because it doesn’t make sense to tie up more than $100 million dollars in the same position unless it’s for a player like Lebron/Kobe/Durrant.

    The good news is Monroe has significant trade value.  He’ll be traded for an allstar that fits a need here.  Whether that’s Rondo or a big time scorer/defender at off guard…it’s going to be exciting to see what this roster looks like by mid season. 

    • Jul 17, 201310:43 pm
      by Matt

      Reply

      Agreed. Zach Lowe seems to think so, too, and it’s hard to find the flaw in the argument here. If anything can save the Moose now, it might be the age/timing consideration. Trading Moose and keeping Smith means needing to find a new front court mate for Drummond 5-6 years down the road, whereas keeping Moose means the two can ride off into the sunset together. But that just doesn’t seem like it’s going to happen because of Monroe’s defense. Too bad. Great ‘baller and a class act, but if Drummond’s the real deal, we need an all-star in the backcourt sooner rather than later.

    • Jul 18, 201312:38 am
      by tarsier

      Reply

      More than $100M? I guess you must be talking about over the lifetime of contracts, but that seems a really odd way to do it. It’s not a meaningful number. Stick to per year contract amounts when talking about how much a franchise is spending at a given position.

      • Jul 18, 20138:09 am
        by RyanK

        Reply

        $56 million to Smith, what will Monroe get?  I’m guessing it will be over $44 million for 5 years…probably $70 million, which makes it a $110-120 million over 5 years.  I’m looking at it from a business standpoint, not a cap standpoint.  These are real dollars.  Not only will it cost him a lot of money, it takes away from money that can be spent on other players.  

        If you look at it per year, you’re at $30-35 million per season.  

        • Jul 18, 20135:17 pm
          by tarsier

          Reply

          $30-35M/season?

          No way, Smith gets $13.5M/yr. Assuming Monroe is in that ball park, it would be $20-25M/season. That’s acceptable if they are a pair of all-star caliber players.

  • Jul 17, 201310:39 pm
    by Haan

    Reply

    Curious wording by Dumars (“Drummond is certainly one of those guys we wouldn’t move,”)  Who else belongs in that set?  Could Josh Smith (currently untradeable anyway) be another but not Monroe.?  If you just look at the wording of the part I quoted, a number of guys wouln’t be traded, like Bynum, but not because they’re high in the “pecking order” to which he refers.  I’d have thought that the pecking order would go: AD, Monroe, Smith.  I get the sense, though, that the tortured wording creates a loophole regarding Monroe.  The first sentence sounds like a reference to the likelihood of a player being moved, with no one being “untouchable”; the second sentence sounds like a categorical denial that AD would be moved.

    • Jul 17, 201311:32 pm
      by Dan Feldman

      Reply

      I took that mean historically, as in Drummond is untouchable, just as other players once were. But I really don’t know my reading of the quote is more telling than your reading.

  • Jul 17, 201311:58 pm
    by Dan

    Reply

    So if Monroe is the most likely to moved how good of a player would we get in return?  Pistons need a player at the 2 or 3 that can shoot the lights out and play D.  Would the Spurs consider Danny Green in a swap?  He fits our needs and the Spurs get their next big man.

    • Jul 18, 201312:38 am
      by ToddM

      Reply

      We can get a lot more for Moose than Danny Green, I’d hope.  Look at what the league thought of Al Jefferson five or six years ago — that’s pretty close to Monroe.  Jefferson is (and was) far more polished in the post, but Moose can actually pass, and everyone is a better athlete than Big Al.

      He’s worth a lot, which is one of the reasons he could go before he gets expensive.  Personally, I’d be looking for someone on the at least near all-star level at the 1 or 3 still under 25… Batum, Holiday, Leonard, or even better, an early lottery pick next year.

      If you can’t get that (and maybe you can’t), it’s not worth moving him.  Rondo just isn’t the right fit.  We’d be the worst jump-shooting team in history.    

    • Jul 18, 201312:50 am
      by tarsier

      Reply

      Monroe is way better than Danny Green. Kawhi Leonard would be worth considering, but not Green.

      • Jul 18, 20131:19 am
        by Otis

        Reply

        Kawhi Leonard and San Antonio’s 2014 #1. That’s fair. There are probably more fair trades for Monroe that would help the team than the number of potential trade partners (29).

        • Jul 18, 20131:31 am
          by Worm

          Reply

          I’m sorry, you think that, on average, there is more than one fair trade for Monroe per team in the NBA? You cannot be serious? Unless you are talking about trades that the Pistons would do even if the other wouldn’t do it, that’s insane. Please name ten and I’ll listen.

          • Jul 19, 20132:48 pm
            by Otis

            To clarify: I would accept packages for Monroe that included either players or picks. I just plain don’t think Monroe and Drummond can play together, and I certainly don’t think they can both play together with Smith. I think the Pistons would be wise to use that big lineup only in select circumstances, and I think it’s a luxury we can’t afford, since we have ZERO above average perimeter players. I don’t think Monroe particularly fits with the athletic, defense-oriented direction this team seems to be headed (with guys like Smith, Drummond, KFC, Tony Mitchell). So I would be highly motivated to move him.
             
            Given all that, I’d take a wide variety of packages for him. I consider Leonard and a #1 pick to be selling low, but I’d still do it. I’m certainly including trades other teams are unlikely to do, but if you’re talking fair value I do think there’s 30 deals out there. Without going through all of them, trust me that there are probably close to ten guys at each perimeter position (PG, SG, SF) around the league that I’d take for Monroe either straight up or sweetened with a pick. And failing that, I’d take spare parts and two first rounders. Give me a little leeway here. I do not think Monroe is worth holding onto and giving max money. Not at power forward. Not on this roster.

  • Jul 18, 20134:21 am
    by tiko

    Reply

    players I’d trade Monroe for:
    Wall
    Leonard
    Barnes
    George (no chance)
    2014 unprotected draft pick from shitty team 

    • Jul 18, 20135:21 pm
      by tarsier

      Reply

      Barnes? As is the guy who averaged 9 and 4 and not much else? How is he worth Monroe?

  • Jul 18, 20137:29 am
    by jay

    Reply

    Forget the point guard search for right now,  our point guard play will be better this season with billups back in the fold… Ithink iit’s more important that we trade for a small forward… like a Rudy gay,  Wilson Chandler or Batum from Portland. I would trade Monroe in a package for all of those guys… it’s not that I don’t LIke Monroe,  I just don’t think Monroe is worth 10 million dollars per year… with David falk being his agent he’s definitely going to demand that  

    • Jul 18, 201312:41 pm
      by oats

      Reply

      Not worth $10 million? Wow. Umm, that makes no sense. Monroe is worth a lot more than $10 million. He’s a 22 year old that averaged roughly a 16 points, 9.6 rebounds, and 3.5 assists a game last season. He’s worth at least $14 million easy.

      • Jul 18, 20131:16 pm
        by jay

        Reply

        Numbers don’t lie but ask yourself can Monroe put up those numbers on a contending team. I don’t think he can. Being on a weak team someone has to get the numbers… u would pay Monroe 14 million a year huh… I hope you have no connection to Joe D. Lol that is just crazy…. 

        • Jul 18, 20133:45 pm
          by MIKEYDE248

          Reply

          He could even put up better numbers too.  If you watched them last year, most team double or triple teamed Monroe because the Pistons didn’t have anyone else that could score, so if you pull one or two guys off of him, he should do better.

        • Jul 18, 20135:45 pm
          by oats

          Reply

          I’d say he is at least as valuable as Roy Hibbert was when he got maxed at a little over $14 million a year. That’s the going rate on really productive but still limited big men.
           
          The post ahead of me by MIKEYDE248 has a point. Monroe was subject to a lot more double teams than he should have been because there was no reason not to double onto him. On top of that, Monroe has yet to play with a competent point guard. His numbers would be dependent on his getting touches, but that shouldn’t be a problem. Even Chris Bosh gets up 12 shots a game, only 1 less shot than Monroe. Teams play through talented big men, and for Mornoe’s numbers to really drop he’d need to be no more than the 4th option on offense. That is just not a likely scenario. Sorry, he should still be productive on a contending team.

  • Jul 18, 20138:19 am
    by Steve K

    Reply

    According to Simmons’ trade value, these are all players that compare with Monroe:

    Noah
    Lillard
    Beal
    Lawson
    Aldridge
    Wall

    Assuming the Pistons are trying for a guard, we can throw out Noah and Aldridge. I can’t see Lillard on the block. But I could see Wall. Denver could potentially trade Lawson too, if they wanted to unload salary. Both those trades would help the Pistons, though I think the Wall trade makes the most sense for both sides. Washington is thinner at PF/C. Monroe would be an upgrade over Okafor.

    • Jul 18, 201312:54 pm
      by oats

      Reply

      Washington is not trading Wall. Last year the team went 24-25 with Wall, and 5-28 without him. Bradley Beal shot 39% on 3s for the season, but over 45% on 3s with Wall in the lineup. They aren’t even a little interested in trading him and are clearly planning to roll with the Wall and Beal backcourt. They just won’t do a Monroe for Wall deal.

  • Jul 18, 20138:41 am
    by Jack56

    Reply

    As a writer myself I totally understand not self-plagiarizing. I have no problem with linking to other sites…in fact I wouldn’t mind seeing that done more often.

    Lowe’s story on the Pistons was brilliant.

    So, with my suggestion of linking to even MORE sports outlets for everything Pistons I wish there were more “RUMOR” links.

    Even if we don’t know if they are “real” simply by linking to “potential rumors” would be fun from time to time….even with a disclaimer if needed.    

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    by Aaron

    Reply

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    by miumiu antico

    Reply

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