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Jason Maxiell signs with Magic

Vincent Goodwill of The Detroit News:

It’s official. Jason Maxiell to Orlando.

2nd year for Maxiell is a team option, sources say. Both years at $2.5 million

The Pistons had already more than filled their roster without Jason Maxiell, who’s no longer worth that much money, anyway. The Pistons are trying to get younger and better, and Maxiell will help with neither.

He had a nice run in Detroit – especially before signing his four-year, $20 million extension and letting his conditioning slip – but his biggest impact was probably keeping Andre Drummond on the bench for far too long. That was Lawrence Frank’s fault, not Maxiell’s, but, unfairly, Maxiell took some of the scorn, too.

Maxiell showed up for the boycotted 2011 shootaround in Philadelphia, refusing to join the other veterans in their misguided protest of John Kuester, and I’ll always respect Maxiell for that. Now, Rodney Stuckey replaces Maxiell as the Pistons’ longest-tenured player – not exactly the type of leader you dream of.

Oh, well. Soon enough, Stuckey will be gone too, and a new generation of Pistons will take over. That will be for the better.

You can read more of my, mostly Magic-oriented thoughts, on Maxiell at ProBasketballTalk.

108 Comments

  • Jul 18, 20133:41 pm
    by MIKEYDE248

    Reply

    Yes!!! I’ve been dreading the headline that says Joe just resigned him for 5 more years at ten million a year.

  • Jul 18, 20133:54 pm
    by RyanK

    Reply

    He was a big disappointment to me.  If you’re getting paid that kind of money and you can’t even keep yourself in good playing shape…wow.  Guaranteed money has really hurt the NBA.  Maxiell should have rightfully been cut the first year of his old contract.  He played his best basketball last year…what do you know, a contract year.

    Giving credit because he didn’t take part in the mutiny…  Give me respect for not running out of restaurant without paying, give me respect for not obeying traffic laws, give me respect for not vandalizing property of those I don’t like…  Maxiell shouldn’t get respect for that, the others who committed the mutiny should get disrespect.

    • Jul 18, 201310:54 pm
      by tarsier

      Reply

      I agree about he problem of guaranteed money. Honestly, I wish the CBA would have some sort of clause allowing any contract to be bought out at any time for half of its remaining value (in case of injury, insurance would cover the remainder).

      It would help the owners because no contract would even be as bad as the worst ones currently are. It would help the players because it would create more opportunities for people just trying to get a foot in the door as well as giving them additional motivation to merit their deals. And the only players it hurts are those who aren’t even worth half of what they are signed for. Who is going to vote against that? By doing so, a player would be implying that he expects to at some point be on a contract he is not worth even half of. I doubt many players think that of themselves, so they shouldn’t feel threatened. And those who do probably wouldn’t be willing to admit it anyway, which they would be doing by voting the proposition down (provided it wasn’t a secret ballot).

      • Jul 18, 201311:11 pm
        by gmehl

        Reply

        I agree with everything you said but when it comes time to vote on anything regarding the CBA you’d have to assume that everything would be strictly confidential. From there you’d then have to assume that most players would want any deal they signed fully guaranteed as the last thing you’d want to be remembered for was a guy that couldn’t live up to his contract (aka damaged goods). If that ruling was in it would’ve held out us big time over the last 5 years that’s for sure.

        • Jul 18, 201311:36 pm
          by tarsier

          Reply

          So you choose to put it to vote in a non-confidential manner. What would prevent that? These are guys with big egos. I think there is a good chance that lots of them would be proud of their votes. And even if it was a secret ballot, I again call on their egos. Which of them would honestly expect to fail to live up to half of their contracts? If they don’t believe that of themselves, such a rule could only help them.

          • Jul 19, 20134:44 am
            by gmehl

            I totally agree with you man but for every LeBron, Kobe and Durant out there that can back up there contracts there’s a CV or Gordon that can’t fulfil half of one. Maybe the league should allow a team to have an amnesty of a player once every 3 years or something like that.

          • Jul 19, 20137:43 am
            by tarsier

            Yeah, I guess I just wonder if they realize they are that bad. I wouldn’t be surprised to learn they still think they’re underpaid.

            Also, there are a lot more voters from the NBA scrap heap than who make mid-sized contracts. They’d be the real winners as they’d replace guys bought out. So they could tip the scales ina vote.

    • Jul 19, 20137:49 am
      by I HATE FRANK

      Reply

      @RyanK dissapointment?

      He was a undersized(6’6.5 dependinging on the shoes) limited skilled PF…draft at the bottom of the first rd…. Played in the NBA for 8 years, but signned a 2 year deal…

      He was a quality role player, energy off the bench guy…. I never had high expectations

      I remember that draft hoping the Pistons would take David Lee or Monte Ellis…. smh

  • Jul 18, 20134:03 pm
    by RL

    Reply

    Well, he needed a job…

  • Jul 18, 20134:16 pm
    by Curtis

    Reply

    All I am saying is that Big Baby Davis better watch out, Maxiell eats babies, even big ones, I’m sure.

  • Jul 18, 20134:20 pm
    by Otis

    Reply

    Ah, yes. God forbid we move on without shitting on this guy one last time.
     
    In defense of Maxiell: 1) He had ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with Drummond being benched for so long. He never had control over decisions like that, and any team that starts Jason Maxiell on a regular basis has personnel problems that run much deeper than one undersized role player. 2) Under the old CBA (where guys like Rashard Lewis made $20 mil a year) his $5 million annual salary wasn’t nearly as outrageous as it’s made out to be. 3) If Max was kept in his proper role (15-20 minutes of energy and toughness off the bench) on a reasonably competitive team, nobody would complain about him. 4) Any complaints you have about ANYTHING relating to this team over the past five years, especially being sick of seeing guys like Rip and Tayshaun and Stuckey and Max, are 100% on Joe Dumars.
     
    I was as tired of this guy as anyone, and he never should have started a single game here, but at least I know where to direct my complaints. I’ll prefer to remember the gap-toothed baby eater we used to like and turn the damn page.

    • Jul 18, 20134:40 pm
      by frankie d

      Reply

      agree almost 100% with otis.
      i’d add this…
      a couple of years ago, when he was hitting that midrange jumper in the range of about 45% – a very good number for a big guy like him – dumars could have moved him to a contender for assets.  he probably could have flipped him to a contender for a number one draft choice or a couple of decent second round picks.  there were teams that would have loved a “jason maxiell-type” player for their playoff run.
      but typically, joe d sat on his arse and did nothing and ultimately he let another player simply walk away and has nothing to show for him.
      consider this question: of all of the players who were on the title teams and/or the dominant eastern conference finalist teams – tay, rip, chauncey, ben, sheed, max – what assets did joe ever get for any of those guys?
      they all left, in one way or the other.  one would think that with a team that accomplished so much, a decent gm would be able to show some return on that talent.
      but, exactly what did joe get from any of those players? 

      • Jul 18, 20135:32 pm
        by Otis

        Reply

        As for moving Maxiell: I’m 100% sure he could have fetched something at the deadline 2 years ago (I believe that’s what you’re referencing), but Dumars was too concerned with the creating illusion of progress, and NEVER ONCE was that fool a seller at the deadline. Never once. What kind of GM suffers through five consecutive losing seasons, all of which were completely and utterly wasted, without ever once being a seller at the deadline. That’s a major part of why the last five years have been so miserable and unconstructive. Joe should have traded Prince three years ago to the Mavs for Caron Butler’s corpse and a pick. He should have traded Max at either of the last two deadlines. He should have traded Stuckey at any point he could have.
         
        Have you been following my posts, because I’ve complained before about Joe’s complete and total failure to roll over assets, which really should be one of the most important skills for a GM who intends on having a good team for a while. Who deconstructs an elite team and ends up with absolutely nothing in terms of future assets? A terrible GM, that’s who. Not only did Joe get NOTHING for any of those pieces, but we paid Rip most of the money we owed him to go away, and we still owe a first round pick for dumping Gordon. If I’m not mistaken, literally the only thing left on the roster from the 07-08 season is one player (Stuckey) and zero future assets. People who give Dumars a pass or make excuses for him gleefully ignore hard evidence like this that he’s been a disaster.

        • Jul 18, 20135:58 pm
          by mixmasta

          Reply

          @Otis & frankie d
           
          You guys might have forgotten about Karen Davidson who froze all these scenarios. That played a part too.

          • Jul 18, 20136:49 pm
            by Otis

            Not only did I NOT forget Karen Davidson, but I’m sick to death of that bogus excuse. Karen Davidson had ALMOST NOTHING to do with this franchise’s recent misery. Joe Dumars is the one who turned a flexible roster consisting of All-Stars and young talent into a roster whose top paid players were Ben Gordon ($58M over 5 years), Rip Hamilton ($50 mil over 4 years), Charlie Villanueva ($38 mil over 5 years) and Tayshaun Prince ($11M per). Those four alone ate up FORTY MILLION DOLLARS of cap space annually. Joe Dumars is the one who decided to blow up the team and build around Rodney Stuckey… Rodney f*cking Stuckey. Who’s probably not even a starter in the NBA. After Joe voluntarily dumped Chauncey, Dyess, Afflalo and Sheed (who was allowed to walk) for cap space, Karen Davidson allowed Joe to spend money right up to the cap.
             
            Do you honestly think Karen Davidson prevented Joe from trading his TRASH for good players? Who would have traded for Rip? Who would have traded for Gordon, or Villanueva? Nobody wanted that junk on those bloated albatross contracts. And the proof is in the pudding, because once his hands were untied, what did Joe do? He paid Rip to go away, because NOBODY was trading for him EVER. He had to sweeten Ben Gordon with a first round pick in order to get someone to take him off our hands. He re-signed his own free agents (Tay, Stuckey, JJ) and NOTHING ELSE. Joe was handcuffed by his own terrible contracts, not by any ownership issues. If anything, the two years that passed under KD should have eased the burden of moving those horrific contracts, simply by reducing the years and dollars, and Joe still couldn’t turn them into anything.
             
            Think for yourself, friend. Stop throwing people under the Dumars bus. He’s 100% responsible for everything that went wrong the last five years.

          • Jul 18, 201310:15 pm
            by frankie d

            unhhh…i guess i’ll just be the otis-amen-corner today, cause i cannot disagree with anything he’s said.
            the one thing i would add is that he also dumped amir johnson in a straight up salary dump so that he could actually have enough money to sign CV and chris wilcox.
            was watching a bit of the raptors summer league game today and the announcer asked the raptors’ coach, dwayne casey, who his favorite player was.
            the raptors’ coach hesitated and didn’t really want to answer but after being pressed he finally answered.
            “amir johnson” he said.
            amir was the guy any coach loved because he came to work everyday and no matter if he was hurt or tired or whatever, amir still gave the same maximum effort, dwayne casey stated.
            yep, amir johnson, a guy detroit picked as a late second round choice, nurtured for a few years and just when he was ready to start paying a dividend on that patience, joe d dumps him for a guy he immediately releases so he can sign CV and chris wilcox.  a straight up, nba style salary dump.
            amir was the guy he’d like to have with him in a foxhole.
            another dumars special…
             

          • Jul 18, 201310:57 pm
            by Otis

            I didn’t forget about Amir Johnson (and technically they salary dumped him and Afflalo so they could scratch together $3 million for Wilcox) but most people don’t regard him as much of a loss. But when you consider how much trade value Amir had over the years he was here, the fact that he was traded him to the Bucks because Fabricio Oberto’s contract was only half guaranteed. In other words, we didn’t even get his full $3.5 million salary in cap relief but more like half… AND we dumped Affllalo to clear a sliver of cap space (maybe $2 million when you include Walter Sharpe’s throw-in salary)… all for the honor of paying Chris Wilcox. The last five years would have been a HELL of a lot better if Joe simply quit while he was behind and held onto Amir and Afflalo.

          • Jul 18, 201311:11 pm
            by tarsier

            Otis and frankied,

            I have rarely been in such complete agreement with the two of you. Especially on the friggin’ Karen Davidson excuse. It may have merit if Joe’s approach looked significantly different under her. But it didn’t.

            I’d love to keep Dumars as a scout, but he has been an awful GM for a lot of years now.

          • Jul 19, 20133:01 pm
            by Otis

            Even at the time KD was still owner and people were complaining, I wondered what trades they thought Joe was going to be able to do. Rip for Boozer? Ha ha. Like the Jazz were going to trade their All-Star expiring big man for multiple years of Rip at $12.5 mil. Right. These people are living in a dream world.
             
            The craziest thing is that people stick with it. The window closed, and the proof is in the pudding. Joe was obviously free under Gores because he bought Rip out and dumped a pick to send Gordon out of town. None of these guys had any value at all, and the evidence is beyond dispute.

    • Jul 18, 20134:40 pm
      by RyanK

      Reply

      Joe D was behind the mutiny…okay, glad you cleared that up.

      Joe D was feeding Maxiell the same diet he’s eating himself…that’s why they both look like the do.  Makes sense…

      • Jul 18, 20135:22 pm
        by Otis

        Reply

        “Behind” the mutiny? No. 100% RESPONSIBLE? Absolutely.
         
        Horrible roster with no flexibility whatsoever and the worst coaching in the league, for years. YEARS. Four insanely overpaid years of Rip Hamilton PLUS five simultaneous insanely overpaid years of Ben Gordon was a disaster waiting to happen. Add to that an absence of quality big men, no point guards. And a GM who did absolutely nothing about any of it. Yeah this is all on Joe. All of it. Stop making excuses for him, please. I’m begging you.

        • Jul 18, 20135:42 pm
          by RyanK

          Reply

          I’m not making excuses, I just don’t understand how players being paid millions of dollars deciding not to attend a mandatory practice is Joe D’s fault.  Nor do I understand how Maxiell eating twinkies and drinking beer is Joe D’s fault.  

          Joe D messed up signing Gordon and CV…no one is denying that.  But calling the items above his fault is like saying Drummond’s broken lumbar was his fault.

          • Jul 18, 20137:05 pm
            by Otis

            Joe Dumars put together a team that was so poorly constructed I still can’t believe it. His top two players were at the same position and couldn’t play together. And it’s not like when you look at those two guys you think they could probably play together and it just didn’t work out. There was never a moment in time when it made a shred of sense to have these two on the same roster AT ALL, let alone locking them up for 4 and 5 concurrent years! It’s a GM’s responsibility to put together a team that can play together, and to give players contracts that represent value for the team. Joe did neither and ended up with not only one of the absolute worst and least compatible rosters in the league, but he was COMPLETELY stuck with this junk. He left himself with no flexibility, and he didn’t do anything about it when things predictably went south and the situation festered. I would have protested too, and in a way I did by boycotting the team for the past five years.
             
            It’s just literally impossible for me to be angry at Rip or Karen Davidson or Kuester or Curry or any of the other scapegoats people love pointing the finger at because they don’t like the idea that one of their idols is BY FAR the most responsible for the blame. Rip, Gordon, Stuckey, Tayshaun, Charlie, Maxiell, Daye… these are the major pieces Joe put in place!
             
            If you don’t think the problems I outlined above (roster and coaching, which included CV and BG as chief among them) aren’t Joe’s fault, then may God have mercy on your soul.

          • Jul 18, 20138:47 pm
            by Stuckey and Whoever

            Joe D is loyal to his good players first of all.  Which all good GMs do.  Thats why Billups, Ben and Wallace came back.  So if you want to hate on him for keeping Rip and Tay too long thats your opinion.  No one thought CV and Gordon would be that big of a bust.  Shakey yes, but he had to make moves.  Players don’t come here to play and coach because Joe D is that stupid.  This is Detroit, not exactly Miami, so people come here strictly for basketball.  Easier said than done.  With all the moves and draft picks I’m scratching my head like you still trying to complain about Joe….Really??

          • Jul 18, 201310:12 pm
            by RyanK

            You’re struggling here.  Please tell me:

            How is Joe D responsible for the mutiny

            How is Joe D responsible for Maxiell’s beer belly

            I know you won’t respond, because there is no way to blame this on Joe D.  He didn’t do it!  You might get off saying He picked these low class players that formed a mutiny…true, it all ultimately is his on him.  You can also say that he should have known Maxiell is a low character guy who will only work in contract years and let himself go the rest…  

            Ryan’s bottomline: Any GM is going to make mistakes.  Until CV and BG, Joe corrected his mistakes quickly.  Nazr, Darko, Cleaves, White…Joe screwed up, and he made the best of a bad situation.  When Karen Davidson took over, it all went to crap.  Joe D made some mistakes on her watch…that was his biggest mistake, not being allowed to fix it.

          • Jul 18, 201311:14 pm
            by Toozman

            The Billups trade I understood, but the Hamilton extension was what got me.  If you’re going to blow it up, then why extend someone 3 years, 36million?  Joe used to talk about the challenge of rebuilding and staying competitive at the same time, well now we all know he failed miserably at that.  Four years for Prince?  Who exactly were we bidding against?  Three years for Stuckey, when training camp had already started?  Again, who were we bidding against?  Four years for Jonas?  I’m glad we’re turning a corner, but the past five years have been total nonsense……

          • Jul 18, 201311:18 pm
            by Otis

            @S&W: Charlie surprised me, but people at the time of those signings thought it was a bad move, and I remember some Milwaukee fans coming in and saying what a bum he was. Gordon, on the other hand, looked like one of the worst moves in league history from the get-go. Did you think he and Rip would be able to play together?? Without a point guard or reliable big men for setting picks? Heck, maybe you did. If you think Joe hasn’t been an unmitigated disaster for the last five years leading up to this month, you and I will never agree on anything.
             
            @Ryan: Don’t be obnoxious, and don’t tell me who’s struggling.
            On the mutiny: Joe’s job was to put his players and coaches and the team overall in a position to succeed. He created a situation where failure was a guarantee, and with a roster that was absolutely LOCKED IN and completely unfixable without years of failure and draft picks. It was a completely hopeless situation, it was completely avoidable with sensible, responsible personnel decisions, and it was guaranteed to fester. Unrest and some kind of boiling over was absolutely guaranteed. Because of foreseeably horrendous decisions by Joe Dumars.
             
            On Max: A few seasons of conditioning issues from a late pick who should be a relatively minor role player is a DROP IN THE BUCKET of the misery we’ve been enduring for the last five years. It’s less than a drop in the bucket. The only reason this guy was ever a starter is because this team somehow didn’t actually have any better options (and I’m talking about the season before last, so we didn’t have Drummond). In a single year, Joe turned an elite team into one with no chance of winning and no future. Jason Maxiell should have been the least of everyone’s worries. Joe comes out and describes the team as destitute on the wings… but he just went out and threw all of his money and assets into wings (Rip, Tayshaun, Gordon, Stuckey) and what does he have to show for that investment? Nothing. What does he have to show for guys like Chauncey, Sheed, Dyess, Tayshaun, Afflalo, Amir Johnson? Nothing. All of those guys were dumped and Joe didn’t get a single thing for any of them to make the team better in the future. Who rebuilds like that?? You’re worried about a few seasons of bad conditioning, but I’m the one who’s struggling. Right. Shoot, Joe didn’t even try to GET anything for Max either of the last two trade deadlines when he was in good shape and playing well (particularly during the lockout season).
             
            Do me a favor, would you? Describe for me some credible trade proposals that would have rid us of Ben Gordon, Rip Hamilton, Tayshaun Prince, Charlie Villanueva, or whoever else. Tell me what kinds of trades she was preventing. Nobody was trading for any of these deadbeats, and you’re lying if you say someone would.

          • Jul 18, 201311:32 pm
            by tarsier

            These mistakes he corrected you point to: Muhammad: Definitely a mistake. Really your only good example here. But he wasn’t that bad.

          • Jul 18, 201311:38 pm
            by tarsier

            Don’t know why this didn’t all post.

            No GM doesn’t make any mistakes. But Dumars has made so many and such big ones in recent years, even if he could fix them most of the time, he’d be worth sacking because better to have someone who won’t make so many mistakes (read: almost anyone). But about these mistakes he corrected you point to. 

            Muhammad: Definitely a mistake. Really your only good example here. But he wasn’t that bad. He was a little worse than Maxiell and making comparable money. Good on Joe for getting rid of him, but let’s not act like this single-handedly proves that he can remove himself from any mess he puts himself in.

            Darko: Let’s see, Dumars passed on Anthony to get Milicic, but he was able to turn that second overall pick into Rodney Stuckey, who has been just good enough to keep the Pistons from bottoming out without actually ever being particularly good. And then Dumars extended him with a contract that overpays him so he’s now a bad contract (albeit an expiring one). How does this constitute “fixing” passing on Anthony?

            Cleaves: How was this a mistake? Who was he supposed to draft? Michael Redd? Nobody had any idea how good Redd was and nobody else left at that point in the draft really mattered.

            White: Yes, Dumars did a good job here turning a subpar pick into a future pick. But you mean to tell me that Davidson was preventing this sort of move? She wasn’t going to let Dumars acquire future draft picks that would make the franchise she wanted to sell more valuable? I mean, it’s possible she was that big of an idiot, but it was much more likely that Dumars couldn’t get that kind of trade.

            None of Dumars’ past mistakes were anywhere close to the caliber of signing BG and CV, extending Rip, and re-signing Prince instead of trading him (unless you count passing on Anthony; but if you’re counting that, please explain to me how he fixed it). It’s a lot harder to get out of your mistake when the signing is universally mocked from the get-go and then the players way under-perform all depressingly low expectations. Unless you have evidence that Dumars would have trade-magicked that summer away, Occam’s Razor clearly puts the blame on him, not Karen.

            On the plus side, Dumars did manage to get out of Prince’s contract (his one smart move in God knows how long) but he still didn’t get a future asset out of it like he could have if he’d been smart before. And it’s not like we can just say he’s got “it” back since Gores took over because he also traded away a first rounder for cash in Gores’ pocket. 

          • Jul 18, 201311:43 pm
            by tarsier

            RyanK,

            You are right about one thing. Dumars was not responsible for the mutiny. How could anyone have predicted that, it was unprecedented.

            But, and this is really important, the mutiny itself was not the problem. It was a symptom. It was interesting, but most people just don’t care anymore.

            Dumars is responsible for the cause of the mutiny: putting together an awful roster with a coach that commanded zero respect from anyone. And those causes of the mutiny are the actual problem. If the Pistons were a contender, I’d be fine with two mutinies per year. I would not be fine with a perfectly professional roster that wins 25-30 games per year for a decade.

            So Dumars isn’t at fault for the mutiny, but he is at fault for all the bad things that happened to the Pistons that actually matter. 

          • Jul 19, 20137:37 am
            by RyanK

            According to reports and what Dumars said, he wasn’t allowed to do anything that would cost the team more.  That meant he had to hire a cheap coach Kuester.  It meant he couldn’t take on more salary to unload CV and BG.  

            In the past, Nazr, White, Darko, Cleaves, and other mistakes…he moved these guys for an asset.  Three draft busts that all turned into something.  White and Cleaves were part of Sheed.  Nazr wasn’t a bad player…he was overpaid.  Darko became Stuckey.

            Why did it change when Karen Davidson took over?  All the sudden mistakes stuck around when they were always sent away prior.  Joe D now has reshaped the roster since Gores took over.  Why isn’t he just sitting on these guys anymore?  

            Only people on the inside know for sure the circumstances of why it went so bad.  But lets exam who’s watch these bad things happened on…  Joe did well on Bill Davidson’s watch and he’s doing well on Gore’s watch…
             

          • Jul 19, 20137:50 am
            by tarsier

            Do you realize the BG trade is on Gores’ watch? Apart from that, there just are not many moves for you to say he’s doing well. But he has failed to use the amnesty, so that’s a big minus to his record. He still failed to get rid of burdensome contracts in a positive manner. You know why? Because they weren’t minor ones like Muhammad’s. They were really friggin’ big.

            And of course, one of the most obvious blunders of Dumars in recent times was failing to pick up a draft pick from the Mavs in Butler-Prince swap. It was so clearly a good move and I don’t believe for a second Davidson wouldn’t allow it. 

          • Jul 19, 20133:29 pm
            by Otis

            @Ryan: 1) You assert that Dumars performed well under Gores and Bill Davidson, but not under Karen. This is such a broad and misleading generalization it’s insane.
             
            Under Bill Davidson: Dumars put together the championship team over an incredibly successful two-year stretch from 2002-2004. For the next four years, owing a lot to how much he accomplished in that brief stretch, he basically treaded water. His only real accomplishment was bringing in McDyess. During this time he also traded away Billups (I’m pretty sure he called this one of his two greatest mistakes, both of which were under Bill Davidson) and extended Rip (perhaps a bigger mistake than trading Billups).
             
            Under Karen Davidson: He was ALLOWED to spend all the cap space he created by letting Billups, Dyess and Sheed go (no future assets to show for them, just cap space). Nobody forced him to dump Amir Johnson and Arron Afflalo (who would have been two of our best players for the last four years) for a sliver of cap space to waste on Wilcox. If you think Karen Davidson made any of those decisions, you’re hopeless. So she sees the results, and if she lost faith in Dumars, who could blame her? It looks like she was a few years ahead of the curve! But the bottom line is that Joe was handcuffed first and foremost by his own bad contracts. You say she wouldn’t let him take on more money to get rid of them, but what delusional trades are you imagining in this fantasy land? Who are these players? You think we could have gotten players with more money and more years who would have HELPED the team and also been available?? You’re nowhere near reality here. These guys were on rich, long-term deals. We had to attach a first round pick just to dump Gordon, and we paid Rip to go away. What more evidence do you need?
             
            Under Gores: Well, shoot, what did he do under Gores? Trade Rip, Gordon, Villanueva and Tayshaun for assets? Wait, that’s right… He bought out Rip, losing him for nothing and paying most of his salary. Aside from that, he kept this awful roster intact by bringing back all of his own free agents (Prince, Stuckey, Jerebko). The next year, he gave Charlotte a draft pick to take Gordon’s awful contract. Two utterly miserable seasons under Gores with complete freedom. Then, what do you know? Time takes care of those bad contracts for the most part (along with mortgaging the future by dumping a pick instead of using the amnesty) and the team is back on the upswing.
             
            The last source I’d ever listen to for accurate reporting on what Joe was and wasn’t allowed and/or able to do is Joe Dumars. I really hope you’re better at independent thought when it comes to your daily life.

          • Jul 20, 20131:37 am
            by Dan Feldman

            I don’t think it’s fair to blame Dumars for not using the amnesty, at least without knowing more information. It was clearly to Dumars’ disadvantage to not use it. Gores is the one who benefits most by not using it. You think Dumars just decided he’d rather give up a first-round pick than amnesty Gordon?

  • Jul 18, 20134:52 pm
    by lisa

    Reply

    Thanks for all the hard work Max! I hope they appreciate you in Orlando. I loved it when you brought your A-game to work, monster jams and big blocks!

  • Jul 18, 20134:56 pm
    by Jake

    Reply

    We’ll always have this:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iDD5GAivH7c

  • Jul 18, 20135:14 pm
    by Jamarco McNutt

    Reply

    Wow.  Surprised he got a job.  Liked him but not as a player for the Pistons.

  • Jul 18, 20135:23 pm
    by ffz

    Reply

    you know what would be smart for the nba is if players would accept 1 year deals whe they are good players going to new teams because what if in that year that player does really bad or the player wants to leave he can leave in the coming season and if he does good then the team rewards him with a 4 year deal

  • Jul 18, 20136:38 pm
    by Ryan Kelly

    Reply

    One of the last players I was totally sick and tired of watching.   One more left.  Rodney stuckey.  

  • Jul 18, 20136:52 pm
    by danny

    Reply

    Maxiell made 5 million which is not bad at all for a decent big that plays defesnse every night.  Yes he has limitations to his game and could of worked harder but it was coaching decisions that put him in those spots.  They were not using his strengths and to hear everyone upset that he signed with another team, even after they don’t wnat him, is plain dumb. 

    Maxiell eats babies comment was too good by the way.  Congrats on the new young big fella.  

  • Jul 18, 20137:14 pm
    by RalphHau

    Reply

    Maxie thank you for your hard work with the Pistons.  Good luck to you in the future.

  • Jul 18, 20138:58 pm
    by Stuckey and Whoever

    Reply

    I hope Stuckey retires a Piston for Dan Feldman.  And what type of leader do you dream of Dan??  Really…
     

    • Jul 18, 201311:50 pm
      by tarsier

      Reply

      I’m guessing Dan wouldn’t complain as long as Stuckey retired within a year.

  • Jul 18, 20139:36 pm
    by dacata

    Reply

    Monroe for Aldridge is being reported my mainstream media.  Yes please!  Take Stuck and CV with you.

    • Jul 18, 201311:52 pm
      by jacob

      Reply

      ? where

    • Jul 19, 201312:01 am
      by jacob

      Reply

      HA just seen it, it’s on espn insider and he said this is only speculation. Just the WRITERS opinion or idea of a trade he also lists 4 more names.

    • Jul 19, 201312:02 am
      by tarsier

      Reply

      That’s just not a good deal. These are comparable players, but Monroe is way younger. Maybe if other assets are sent back.

      Monroe+Pope+expirings for Aldridge+Batum, now that I would get behind. 

  • Jul 18, 201310:12 pm
    by Herman Neutic

    Reply

    Otis (and anyone else who cares to offer their two cents):

    I’d like your opinion regarding the “partnership” of Joe D and Lawrence Frank, in particular the amount of playing time for Drummond. My perception was that Joe D and Frank almost certainly had to be on the same page in this regard: bring Drummond along slowly, and if by some chance the Pistons made the playoffs, they would play him more at that time. This wasn’t out-and-out tanking, it was just realizing that rushing Drummond along in order to get the last playoff spot wouldn’t accomplish that much. The problem was that everyone in the world knew that the team was better with Drummond getting more minutes, so it was necessary for JD to have Frank’s back on this. Their strategy remained in place up until the very end of the season, when JD panicked and told Frank to play Drummond more. At that point, Frank did, but it was too late to make the playoffs, all the Pistons got out of playing Drummond more was a worse position in the draft. Then JD fired Frank, who kept his mouth shut and took the fall.

    Granted I like Frank, but I just don’t see him keeping Drummond out of the lineup on his own. I think he got a raw deal from Dumars.

    PS. I’m not a fan of Jason Kidd, but I’m glad he has a high opinion of Frank’s basketball knowledge. 

    • Jul 18, 201311:42 pm
      by Otis

      Reply

      I think the issue with Drummond is something like this: The original plan was to have he and Monroe split minutes at center. It makes sense, since Monroe has played basically his whole career there (and some people like myself think it’s clearly his best position) and I don’t think anybody expected Drummond to be an impact player right away. So they’re probably thinking Monroe plays a little over 30 minutes and Drummond plays a little under 20, and one of them is on the court at all times. Drummond just came along too quickly for that plan to make sense. They should have played them together more to see what they had. Monroe should have been ready to slide over to PF.
       
      Not only do I think it was a mutual decision to have these guys share time at center, but I think it was actually the best strategy for the team, because they’re just plain both centers. Floor spacing was a noticeable problem last season when they were on the floor together, and who wouldn’t just pack the paint against them? Just because two guys are special players doesn’t mean they can or should play together. So I think they were just sticking to a plan and basically delaying the process as long as possible before letting Drummond start. At the very least, it’s what the fans wanted. So if you’re not going to win, at least you gotta play your two best players together at some point.
       
      Personally, I never thought the two of them showed much promise together. They both looked great when they were at center with Charlie Villanueva spreading the floor, but the offense looked disjointed and ineffective when they shared the floor. I just think they’re two centers, and the organization probably recognized that they weren’t this “match made in heaven” like Pistons.com predicted when they landed Drummond. It’s no secret that I think Monroe would be more valuable to us in a trade for something on the perimeter that can play with Smith and Drummond. I just don’t think these guys can play together.
       
      And I simply don’t think it’s Coach Frank’s fault. Like, at all. If Joe wants to say he backs off and lets his coaches just do whatever, that’s a crutch. The buck stops with Joe, and if he wanted Monroe and Drummond to play together last season, he should have made it happen. But everybody wants to just throw scapegoat after scapegoat under the bus. Iverson, Karen Davidson, Hamilton, Curry, Kuester, Cordon, Villanueva, Stuckey, Lawrence Frank (and to a lesser extend, guys like Daye and Bynum). What’s another scapegoat? God forbid we point out that the buck for EVERYTHING is supposed to stop with Dumars. It just never does. Everyone in this town ends up getting a raw deal from Dumars, or at least to preserve his sparkling reputation as an unmitigated genius.

      • Jul 18, 201311:53 pm
        by tarsier

        Reply

        On playing time, I say the buck stops at the coach. If you want to say it stops at the GM, why not the owner?

        • Jul 19, 20133:38 pm
          by Otis

          Reply

          Well, the owner for the most part is an investor first and foremost and shouldn’t be expected to have the level of basketball expertise. A good owner should put the best GM in place and give them the resources to do his job. An owner also isn’t an employee and therefore can’t be fired.
           
          Technically you could say the buck should stop with the owner, but you can’t vote out an owner. He owns the damn thing. If the owner puts a good GM in place and gives him the resources to do his job, you can’t really ask for more. By all appearances, it looks like Gores has done that. Joe, on the other hand, hasn’t put anyone in a position to succeed in a VERY long time. That’s why he should bear the blame.
           

      • Jul 18, 201311:57 pm
        by Toozman

        Reply

        Otis, I like your post.  I smell it this way…… Smith, Monroe, and Drummond start with Knight and Billups.  Five minutes in, Drummond and Billups sub out for a more natural lineup.  Second quarter, Drummond’s back in there with the cast that he had success with last year – Bynum, Stuckey to a lesser extent, and CV.

        Somewhere before the deadline,   Monroe gets shipped for a 3.  Then, it’s go time. 

        • Jul 19, 20133:51 pm
          by Otis

          Reply

          1) Thanks. Glad you liked it.
           
          2) I feel like if you’re going to sub for anyone in the first quarter, it’s going to be Monroe, who’s the least athletic of our bigs.
           
          3) On that note, if you’re looking to optimize the team’s potential (or maybe you’re just guessing what will happen, as opposed to what should happen) I feel like you should start Smith and Monroe, bring Drummond off the bench, and rotate those three at the 4–5, only going big on specific occasions.
           
          4) I have a hard time seeing that same second unit staying intact. For that matter, I have a hard time imagining we open the season with this same roster. We’ve got five guards in line for minutes (CB1, WB12, RS3, BK7 and KFC) and an interesting, and possibly mediocre, competitions for backups at the forward spots (Singler, Middleton, Datome at SF; Jerebko, Villanueva, Mitchell at PF). You can’t play all these guys, and basically all of them appear to warrant minutes. So if the team doesn’t start winning games, you’re going to have some justifiably disgruntled players on your bench. They might be disgruntled even if the team is winning.
           
          5) I’m all about a Monroe trade before he’s due for that fat extension, but I have a hard time seeing it happening at the deadline. He’s not a prototypical deadline acquisition. I just don’t think you can slot that guy into any old roster and expect smooth sailing. I predict some growing pains for his new team. Also, I feel like the Pistons will have figured out whether or not this plus-sized Big Three is working well before the deadline.

      • Jul 18, 201311:59 pm
        by tarsier

        Reply

        I really only had one problem with Frank: his rigidity.

        But that’s a big one. Being able to adapt is one of the most important skills for anyone in my opinion. And based on what I saw of his coaching, Frank couldn’t adjust a maglite into a club. 

  • Jul 19, 20132:00 am
    by Geoff

    Reply

    Awwww the alleged organized mutiny.  Let’s see….Prince wasn’t practicing due to severe back strain, which he had not been participating for several days…Big Ben was attendeding his brother’s funeral (check him down for mutiny), Stuckey and Bynum showed up but were several MINUTES late and were justly reprimanded (thats some wild mutiny).  That leaves who?  Hamilton (pissed off and left / publically denied organizing any boycott–very strange for rebellion), Chris (overslept), and Tracy (lazy) McGrady begged to be excused from practice.  Kuester was a horrible head coach who lost the respect of the team, but this behavior was the signs of pathitic discipline not organized mutiny.  Sports media did a horrible job reporting this story.   

  • Jul 19, 20132:29 am
    by cali piston fan

    Reply

    Wow! Some of you need to be smacked upside yo head. Didn’t your momma ever teach you about respect. Joe D has brought 3 championships to your dirty ass, BK filing, bail out accepting, poor excuse for a city. I’m in LA LA with a team that seems to win championships every other year, and even I recognize Joe D is a basketball GOD.  Some of you couldn’t recognize a winner if he dunked in your face and said,”Game Over you loose”.

    • Jul 19, 20133:03 am
      by Max

      Reply

      I agree with you.  Some Pistons fans seem like anything but Pistons fans.   They seem to hate all the players and everyone who was ever involved with the team.   Joe D is one of the absolute greatest Pistons ever, on and off the court.   Tayshaun Prince was a great asset in Detroit and I’m sorry he’s gone–one of my three favorite athletes in all of sports ever.   Jason Maxiell outplayed his draft position and I wonder if any other fan base would ever lose its shit over a player who generally suited up and contributed a career’s worth of decent ball for one franchise because he was making a measly (by NBA standards and especially for a big man) 5 million a year throughout his prime.  5 million is the NBAs average salary by the way and Maxiell started enough games to say he deserved 5 million a year.    I’ve said it before but Pistons fans must have just gotten so spoiled by the general level of play and wins since Isiah Thomas was drafted three decades ago that they think four years is a long time to miss the playoffs after having one of the greatest sustained runs that an NBA franchise ever experienced.  What a bunch of babies some of you are.             

      • Jul 19, 20137:52 am
        by tarsier

        Reply

        Ummm, we’re Pistons fans which is why we’re pissed at Dumars for ruining the Pistons over the last several years. 

        • Jul 20, 201312:38 am
          by Max

          Reply

          Yeah, if only Dumars hadn’t ruined the Pistons they would still have two retired Wallaces who never would have retired or even aged.   They’d also have Billups, who has been playing 20 games a year, RIP who couldn’t even get minutes in Chicago with half the team on the injured list and Prince who went to the conference finals as a starter last year–well maybe they were right to get rid of Prince.   

          Seriously, the Pistons have now missed the playoffs four times and they have Drummond, Monroe, Knight and KCP to show for it as lottery picks.   I’d day that’s a pretty good haul even if their draft position had been top five every year and none of them were top five.   Expiring contracts have now been converted into Josh Smith who is probably the best big money free agent acquisition in the history of the franchise.  I see plenty of vision and progress in what Joe Dumars has done.  

          News flash for everyone.   If you fire Joe Dumars, the new GM will probably come in and trade everyone because that is what new GMs do.   So you should only hope for such a thing if you think the four lottery picks and Josh Smith are worth nothing and are not capable of improving the team in the coming years  because a new GM will basically come in and spend two years getting rid of everyone before he even gets started on shaping his new team.  If you want the next five years or more to be in the absolute basement of the league, fire Joe Dumars.     

          • Jul 20, 201310:56 am
            by tarsier

            Ummm, I think what you are describing would also qualify as ruining the Pistons. I didn’t claim that Dumars found the only conceivable path to ruin them. There are always ways to do worse, but Dumars did pretty damn poorly.

            He basically sat around and twiddled his thumbs. If you think just trotting out a mediocre team year after year and then drafting whoever you can is a sound team-building vision, that’s just sad.

            Anyone could have done what Dumars has over the past several years. In fact, an empty chair could have done as much. Why pay a GM if all he has to do is sit on his ass all year and then draft 8th-ish?

            A good GM would have turned Wallace, Billups, Hamilton, and Prince into future assets while they still had value, he wouldn’t have thought the Pistons had any chance at legitimately competing the past few years and would have traded players who were any good at all for bad contracts and additional picks (like Cleveland has done). And he wouldn’t have paid a valuable draft pick to get rid of BG one year early and Smith does not justify this move:

            Look, even if BG were still on the team, simply by not signing Billups, Bynum, and Datome and not picking up the options on Stuckey and Slava, the Pistons still could have offered the same contract to Smith with almost a million dollars to spare. And then they’d have more cap space next summer too.

            I said it before and I’ll say it again, Dumars had to sign one of the big two FAs (Paul or Howard) or else at least two of the next tier to make the BG trade justifiable. he failed to do so. Smith doesn’t make up for it because it didn’t have to happen to sign Smith.

          • Jul 21, 20131:53 pm
            by Max

            The good GMs who created the winning eras of Magic’s Lakers, Bird’s Celtics, Isiah’s Pistons and Jordan’s Bulls did not follow your model of what a good GM should do whatsoever.   You can argue the GM who ran Olajuwon’s rockets did try that method but it didn’t work.   We will see if the Spurs ever trade Duncan, Ginobili or Parker but I am guessing they will not.   Dumars actually did try to convert Billups into assets with cap space as Dallas did so with Tyson Chandler and neither move worked out.   On the other hand, we’ll see if Dallas ever moves Nowitski since it is probably time from the standpoint of absolute ruthlessness.   Dallas has had one of the best records for more than the last decade and they are a well run organization but I’m guessing they won’t trade Nowitski.  You see, good GMs are human and have human feelings regarding their teams and players and don’t operate like video game GMs.    Also, it’s total bullshit when you don’t give Dumars credit for making good draft picks and don’t give me the lame argument that anyone would have made the same picks.   It doesn’t hold up whatsoever because no draft ever goes according to some script and GMs make surprising picks and pass on what are viewed as obvious value at every point of the draft.   

          • Jul 21, 20137:33 pm
            by tarsier

            Weren’t you just pointing out how bad the Pistons would be if they had tried even more to hold on to their championship core?

            Also, there’s a big difference between the great era-defining teams you mentioned and the 2000s Pistons. These Pistons had no all-time great players to hang on to. They only won one championship. It makes sense that they play things out differently than Magic’s Lakers or Bird’s Celtics.

            I don’t actually hold the Billups trade against Dumars. At the time, I was much more in favor trading Stuckey (even though I still though he had a potential all-star future) because I thought the team was still good enough to make it worth sacrificing the future for the present. But better to trade Billups than nothing because it sure didn’t look like they were going to win another title with that core. I do hold his use of the ensuing cap space against him.

            I don’t claim any GM would have made the same picks as him. I claim that even I would have, as would have most commenters here. I give him some minimal credit for not screwing it up, but if a bunch of random people commenting on a Pistons blog could get it right, how much credit do you really want to give Dumars?

            Want to give him credit for being as competent a GM as some random person off the street who would be willing to do the job for under $100K annually? I’m right behind you there. But picking Monroe and Drummond (and Knight, actually, though that one might not work out as well) requires no more competency than that. Are you really disagreeing with this?

            The consensus disagreed with him on Pope over Burke, we’ll see how that turns out. The fact that other GMs have been idiots is not really a great one for Dumars. It’s just an argument not to replace him with a failed retread.

            Let’s sum it up this way: I expect Dumars to do a better job than I could do. Not messing up easy draft picks doesn’t qualify. And my opinion is that he still didn’t manage to do that this year. But I will reserve judgment on that until we see how things turn out. 

          • Jul 21, 201311:59 pm
            by Max

            My point about how keeping the team in place is in response to those who say Dumars should have.   My point about comparing the 2004 group to other teams that had great runs that fizzled out was that the GMs who put together championship teams eventually struggle whether they try to make moves to delay the inevitable or not.   Dumars took a half and half approach.   He broke the team in half and whiffed on home run swings that could have kept the team competitive if they had connected.   At every point though, he did so while creating the flexibility to improve the team in the future if he did strike out.   Signing Gordon and Charlie V was Dumars worst two decisions ever in my opinion and they came at the same moment but even these moves conform to the idea that the team did receive lottery picks as a result of the signings being failures.   Dumars was not able to hold off the inevitable but the team never tanked or gave up on a season before it started and he couldn’t have drafted much better at all if they had.   Personally, I despise tanking and that whole line of thinking entirely and could never support it.  I know some disagree but I’m proud to be a fan of GM who seems to hold the same philosophy I do..   

            Your point about the Pistons having no all time greats on their roster just furthers the idea that Dumars had no great options.   If you don’t have any all time greats and the all stars you do have are past their prime, how much can you really expect to get if you trade them?  Is it worth it at that point to injure the legacy of what the players had accomplished and cast a shadow on their relationship to the franchise.   Maybe sometime it is but not always.   Right now Paul Pierce is feeling hurt.   If I was a Celtic fan, I’d be feeling hurt too on his behalf.  Saying the Pistons only won one title does not detract from the comparison because they contended at an extremely high level for six years before Dumars decided he had seen enough and that the core they had could no longer hope to pull off another championship.   The Bulls won six titles but their assault on the league only lasted a little longer. The number of rings isn’t really the issue.   

            I’m obviously a big Dumars supporter but I did think it was wrong to trade Billups (and Prince) and I do hold these trades against him.   However, unlike you, I focus on the positive rather than the negative, largely because winning a ring, getting to multiple finals and contending for six straight years is something that I believe less than ten current GMs are capable of pulling off regardless of their circumstances.

            I think you are incredibly off in your assessment that nearly any random commentator could draft as well as Dumars–or any GM for that matter.    Personally, I would have made all of the same picks I think you would have as I would have picked Monroe, Knight, Drummond and Burke over the last four years.   If so, we agree with Dumars 75 percent of the time lately but during any of the years in question, plenty of Piston fans on this site have advocated making different picks–some of which weren’t even drafted until five to ten spots later.   You didn’t see anyone arguing for Shabazz?   You can claim a majority preference for Burke or any of the other picks but that’s not how it works.    A GM has to sort through all of the information and make a single decision and if he’s just bowing to the majority, than you are right that any random Joe could do his job but that’s not how any good GM works.   Dumars has made the wrong pick before but in my opinion he’s made the right pick, as in best possible pick, more often than the great majority of GMs and that is how I judge him.   Even Jerry West, the greatest living GM of all time, would be susceptible to lots of criticism if you focused unduly on his errors.      

            You say the main thing is not to replace Dumars with a failed retread.   Well, what hire wouldn’t be like playing pin the tail on the donkey in absolute darkness?   What proven GM, as in created a sustainable contender, is available?   I know of none because there are none.   

            You and I spend a lot of time bullshitting about basketball but I doubt either one of us could possibly have the patience or acumen not to be fleeced in short order by the other 29 professional GMs of the league who have all made basketball their lives.    You can think differently but, if so, I think you are kidding yourself.    It is not nearly as easy as it looks.   

          • Jul 22, 20136:16 pm
            by tarsier

            “Dumars took a half and half approach.”

             Yes, this, right here. That is exactly my point. The NBA rewards going all out, whether it be all out for now or all out for later, that is the way to go. Half-assing it gets you nowhere. This is exactly my point when I say that he displayed zero vision for the team.

          • Jul 22, 20136:37 pm
            by tarsier

            The rest I replied to below because I hate scrolling back to find the reply button.

          • Jul 22, 20139:51 pm
            by Max

            The half and half approach gave him a slim chance to keep the team good after a long period of contending. The good thing about a half and half approach is that if it fails, the people who like tanking get what they wanted anyway.   Anyone who says follow the Thunder model got what they wanted in four lottery picks.   You can say the Pistons didn’t get a 1 pick but neither have the Bobcats in their entire history of putting up tanking type records whether they were trying to or not.  

      • Jul 19, 201310:32 am
        by stuckeyandwhoever

        Reply

        PREACH!!! 

        • Jul 21, 20133:20 pm
          by Max

          Reply

          I have no idea which comment you are saying “preach!!!” to.   I hope it’s one of mine but I just don’t know.  

    • Jul 19, 20134:27 pm
      by tarsier

      Reply

      ‘Some of you couldn’t recognize a winner if he dunked in your face and said,”Game Over you loose”.’

      Or at least not if it produced 5 consecutive years of never getting over 30 wins with no savvy moves and no indication of any vision or plan whatsoever.

      Yeah, if that’s winning, apparently I’m bad at recognizing it. 

      • Jul 20, 201312:21 am
        by Max

        Reply

        They’ve only missed the playoffs four years, Tarsier.   If you are going to whine and bitch, at least be accurate.  

        • Jul 20, 201310:59 am
          by tarsier

          Reply

          You’re right, my bad. 4 seasons fitting the above description and a 5th lost season because its entire premise was to suffer through a down year for the glory of what those next 4 years would bring when a fantastic FA haul was landed.

          And who knows about this coming year. The Pistons are at absolute best a 2/3 shot to make it into the postseason. 

          • Jul 21, 20133:17 pm
            by Max

            I would conservatively give the Pistons a 3/4 chance at making the playoffs and I fully expect them to get the 5th to 7th seed.  

          • Jul 21, 20138:19 pm
            by tarsier

            They may well make the playoffs. But a 75% chance is definitely not conservative.

          • Jul 22, 201312:04 am
            by Max

            Well, we obviously disagree about their level of talent or that of the other teams.   Personally, I am not at all convinced by any of the rants on here that spacing is going to be much of a problem or that Monroe and Drummond are not a good fit.  Actually, I think these arguments couldn’t be more off.   If I’m wrong than you are right but if I’m right than they will probably get the 5th or 6th seed.   I think they will get the 6th seed in the end so to me 75 percent of making the playoffs seems conservative.   

  • Jul 19, 20133:35 am
    by Skyler

    Reply

    Was j-maxx worth the money we gave him? Probably not. That being said he performed the way he was expected to (considering his talent level) on a nightly basis, the man should have never started in the first place but he delivered what he was capable of his entire career. Reallisticaly hes a 8 and 5 guy at BEST on a nightly basis. L-frank obviously expected more out of him (aka adrummond on the bench the majority of the season) but he contributed what he was capable of. I think orlando payed the right amount and i wish him the best. Now its big Dre’s turn!

  • Jul 19, 201310:11 am
    by Gordbrown

    Reply

    The lack of history and logic among the commentators on this site is truly amazing. Joe D tried to trade Hamilton after signing Ben Gordon and that trade was vetoed by Karen Davidson. So there’s your evidence.
    The mutiny was unprecedented? The Pistons Kevin Porter physically attacked Herb Brown in front of reporters! Also too Latrell Sprewell.
    Joe Dumars rolled the dice in an effort to defy gravity. No one could have predicted in advance how badly that would have turned out. To excel you have to take risks. Once those risks panned out (at the teim lots of people predicted that both Hamilton and Billups would fail here, Rasheed would be toxic in the locker room, Isaiah Thomas would always fail at point guardy things because he looked for his own shot too much, etc. etc. etc).
    I think the “risk” for Josh Smith will pan out, especially now that Chauncy is back.
    Props to fellow Stuckey Slappys above. I don’t understand why so many spend all their time crapping on the team’s best player because the team is bad and then decide the best way to improve the team is to replace the best player. I know Stuckey had a really bad season, but I believe that was more on the coach who decided he should be a three than on Stuckey who at least did what he was asked without complaining. (Also it was Daye with Stuckey who showed up to practice on time except that Kuester both moved up the time and changed the way players were notified, then Stuckey and Daye were punished equally with the others for reasons that I`ve never been able to understood).
    Finally, we loved your highlight real dunks Maxie, but it was long since past time to go. Same with Bynum (sigh). Oh well.
     

    • Jul 19, 201310:44 am
      by stuckeyandwhoever

      Reply

      @Gordbrown Indeed!  Stuck did do what the coach told him without complaining even though the coach obviously was making bad decisions.  This is a players coach league now, you don’t hire some old dude unless its Larry brown or Phill Jackson because the players don’t respect that.  And say what you will about Frank but the fact remains he didn’t play Drummond and Monroe together, and put there best scorer in the corner while Singler took his minutes.  Of course your going to have a bad season when that happens, all around bad.

      • Jul 19, 201312:01 pm
        by Gordbrown

        Reply

        Obviously Stuckey is no longer the best player. I`d rank Smith, Monroe, Drummond as top three (which is why they need to start). Knight has potential and is a work in prograss, and should be coming off the bench, but he could someday move into top five. Billups at this point is a role pllayer but I would suggest is best option at starting 2. After that, who? Stuckey’s stats last year were a horror show, but they were better than Knights, which really says something given the way Stuckey was used.

        • Jul 20, 201312:28 am
          by Max

          Reply

          Stuckey is the fourth best player on the roster and whoever the fifth player is isn’t close.   

    • Jul 19, 20133:56 pm
      by Otis

      Reply

      GordBrown, you know literally nothing. Joe was never going to be able to unload Rip, and there was NEVER a credible source that a trade was anywhere near the point where Karen could veto it. Nothing confirmed as being on the table EVER. Dude had four years and like $50 million left on a deal that went well into his mid-thirties. Zero percent chance and I’m sick of reading this crap that she vetoed a deal. There was no deal. There was no veto. To assert that this deal ever existed is baseless and delusional. NOBODY wanted Rip on that contract. Not even his mother. Get a clue and check back here later once you’ve sobered up.

      • Jul 20, 201312:23 am
        by Max

        Reply

        I think you are the most delusional person on this boards, Otis.  

        • Jul 20, 201312:36 am
          by tarsier

          Reply

          Says the person who just claimed Stuckey blows Knight, Pope, Jerebko, Bynum, and all the other Piston wings out of the water.

          • Jul 20, 201312:44 am
            by Max

            Ok, which of those players is better than Stuckey?   I’m pretty sure you have even agreed Stuckey is better than Knight in the past although you have held the distance to be marginal.    So who is the fourth best player on the team?

          • Jul 20, 201311:03 am
            by tarsier

            He may be the 4th best player on the team. I have no idea who is. But the 5 names listed above are probably all neck and neck. So I was mostly commenting on how ridiculous it was to say “and whoever the fifth player is isn’t close.”

        • Jul 21, 201312:03 am
          by Max

          Reply

          Stuckey has always been better than Bynum.   Knight has never approached Stuckey yet as a player even though he was given his position and Stuckey offered Frank to come off the bench.   Stuckey is both a better point guard and shooting guard than Knight.   Stuckey is the only player among all the players you named who can play three positions competently.   KCP may prove to be better than Stuckey but he may prove to never be nearly as good as Stuckey.   Not going to put an unproven rookie in Stuckey’s class.   Jerebko has done nothing to prove he is nearly as good as Stuckey.   I don’t see you making any arguments for any of the players and I think you are just wildly underrating Stuckey.  

          Stuckey was supposed to be the next great Pistons star and he has fallen far short of that but he is a competent starter at the least and he has at least one elite skill while none of the other players can claim the same.  Stuckey is by far the Pistons fourth best player until someone else proves otherwise.   Don’t know how that makes me delusional and the people who think Stuckey is garbage and should be traded because he didn’t become the star they hoped he would be are allowing emotion to cloud their judgement and are therefore delusional.   

          • Jul 21, 20133:25 pm
            by Max

            Also, this gets at our argument regarding tiers of players where it seems like you regard the bottom half of the 450-500 players as equals with no discernible difference in quality.   If you see Stuckey as the possible fourth best player on the team but have a problem with my saying so definitively because the rest of the 15 man roster is neck and neck with the the possible fourth best player, I can also say that you don’t seem able to draw any distinctions whatsoever unless the differences are incredibly obvious.   This doesn’t say much for your ability to rate players.   

          • Jul 21, 20138:04 pm
            by tarsier

            Or perhaps you wildly overrate Stuckey. Can’t dismiss that possibility.

            Like the others I mentioned, Stuckey is among the worst starters and better backups in the league. Well, Jerebko is hard to tell. He hasn’t played much lately. But when he was playing, he looked to be on that level.

            Stuckey:
            11.5 ppg, 2.8 rpg, 3.6 apg, 0.7 spg, 1.8 topg, 41/30/78, 50.5 TS%

            Knight:
            13.3 ppg, 3.3 rpg, 4.0 apg, 0.8 spg, 2.7 topg, 41/37/73, 51.1 TS%

            Even if you’re looking at per minute numbers (of course, it’s worth bearing in mind that Stuckey was usually playing against easier competition as a bench player), the only category Stuckey beats Knight in is turnovers. He does significantly outdo Knight there (by about 0.8 per 36 min), but Knight edges Stuckey in every other statistical category. Also, Knight plays better D. If I only had last year to go on, I would definitely say Knight is the better player of the two. But it was a down year for Stuckey. I therefore give him a little extra benefit of the doubt and declare the two of them a tossup.

          • Jul 21, 20138:12 pm
            by tarsier

            Now let’s compare Stuckey to Bynum. While Knight and Stuckey were close on minutes played (with a slight edge to Knight), Stuckey played way more than Bynum. So we really have to look at the per 36 numbers (I’ll throw in Knight’s too to compare), remembering that Stuckey typically faced a bit tougher opponents than Bynum just like Knight did than Stuckey.

            Stuckey:
            14.5 pts, 3.5 reb, 4.5 ast, 0.8 stl, 2.2 to, 41/30/78, 50.5 ts%

            Bynum:
            18.8 pts, 2.9 reb, 6.8 ast, 1.3 stl, 3.7 to, 47/32/81, 53.2 ts%

            Knight:
            15.2 pts, 3.8 reb, 4.6 ast, 0.9 stl, 3.1 to, 41/37/73, 51.1 ts%

            Stuckey’s better D and the fact that he did put up such numbers over more minutes might give him a slight edge over Bynum, but again, it’s neck and neck. 

          • Jul 21, 20138:14 pm
            by tarsier

            Jerebko’s per minute numbers are better than Stuckey’s too.

            15.2 pts, 7.5 reb, 1.7 ast, 1.5 stl, 1.7 to, 45/30/77, 53.1 ts% 

          • Jul 22, 201312:16 am
            by Max

            Knight had the ball in his hand, was put in position to succeed and had a consistent role whereas Stuckey was put into an unfamiliar role and was put in positions that were not at all to his strengths last year while playing an inconsistent role.   I toss last season out as far as the numbers go for Stuckey since I’m wholly confident that if he were returned to role he has played throughout the rest of his career that he would do at least as well as he always had previous to last season.   I think he would actual do at least slightly better than ever before since there are actually players to pass to with a great defensive frontline behind him.   Leaving that.  

            Per 36 minute numbers are plain silly to look at for actual comparisons because most players can’t effectively play over 30 minutes a game whereas Stuckey has proven he can.  We have no idea how Bynum for instance would respond to having to play 36 minutes a night for a season.   Stuckey is the only player on the roster who can both take care of the ball and defend either guard position well.   He also is the only player you mentioned who has any elite skills and the only one who creates matchup problems and the only one whose size is never a disadvantage to him.  It’s not just about numbers.    

          • Jul 22, 201312:23 am
            by Max

            If you use the composite of Stuckey’s numbers from 2010-2012 or any of those individual years, there would be no comparison between him and the players you are mentioning.   Using a down year, as in a year, where the team treated him and played him as if he wasn’t an important part of their future while they allowed a struggling Knight to play through his mistakes and to grow through his failures is not a fair argument to Stuckey.  You might disagree but I have no doubt that Stuckey’s numbers would have been much better last year if he was given the latitude and freedom that Knight was as an every day starter.  

          • Jul 22, 201312:37 am
            by Max

            And I also have no doubts that the team would have been much better if Stuckey and Knight’s role last year were reversed too.  

          • Jul 22, 20131:04 am
            by Max

            I’d also like to add that until Knight was drafted, Stuckey was arguably the Pistons’ best player for a few seasons.   I have grave doubts that Knight could ever be arguably the best player for any NBA team.   A large part of why I say Stuckey is quite obviously the Pistons’ fourth best player until someone proves he is not is that Stuckey has already proven something.   

            Stuckey’s down season last year was not any indication that he had declined but rather that his team was no longer emphasizing his role and was no longer encouraging him as a featured piece.   The idea that he should have done better as a backup because he was playing inferior competition is not a good argument. For one thing, that would mean his teammates were also inferior but both arguments are largely irrelevant since Stuckey played enough minutes last year that he was not just playing with or against backups.   

            I also think it is greatly to Stuckey’s credit that he didn’t pout about the team and his coach handing Knight his former role without even earning it by rather trying to find another way to contribute and volunteering to come off the bench.   He realized it wasn’t helping anyone that Frank was sticking him in the corner to shoot 3s when that is not his strength at all and tried to make the best of a bad situation.  He accepted that the team was trying to develop Knight even with Knight playing point guard in an incompetent manner that Stuckey easily could have bested.  That’s a team player.   

          • Jul 22, 20136:40 pm
            by tarsier

            The main reason I referenced per minute numbers so heavily is because if you look at per game numbers, Knight clearly looked significantly better than Stuckey. And he was moved around just like Stuckey was. When they played together, it was impossible to tell who was the PG and who the SG.

          • Jul 22, 20136:45 pm
            by tarsier

            One thing I can happily say about my opinions:

            I figure they have to be at least in the ball park of right because with most players, I spend approximately equal time arguing that they are better than someone claims or worse than someone else claims.

            Notable exceptions include Burke and Pope. Which means I still believe Burke the better prospect, but there’s a good chance I overestimate the gap. 

          • Jul 22, 20139:56 pm
            by Max

            Wherever Knight was moved around he still had the ball in his hands plenty and he still was treated by the team as a featured piece they were developing.   When Frank stuck Stuckey in the corner shooting 3s the clear indication was that Knight’s development was more important than putting together a plan that emphasized the things Stuckey did well.    Stuckey was put in position to fail.   That didn’t happen to Knight.   The fact is that if you throw away last year, when Stuckey was treated like a featured piece, he put up better numbers than Knight his whole career.   Stuckey’s career numbers, per 36 or otherwise are flat out better than Knight’s last season.   

    • Jul 20, 201312:25 am
      by Max

      Reply

      Thank you, Gord Brown.  At least someone on here isn’t so frothing at the mouth that they can see things the way they are and the way they actually happened.  

    • Jul 20, 201312:38 am
      by tarsier

      Reply

      I didn’t say worse things than the mutiny haven’t happened, I said it was unprecedented. So you point to examples of totally different occurrences?

      • Jul 20, 201311:37 am
        by Gordbrown

        Reply

        Old debating trick. When pushed into a corner, change the terms of debate. (by the way, I’ve debated against Ivy Leaguers and World champions and coached at that level as well, so there’s my credentials, what are yours). And I generally don’t drink except on special occasions FYI

        • Jul 21, 201312:40 am
          by tarsier

          Reply

          I have no debating credentials and don’t pretend to. I don’t need to make an appeal to ethos, I let the logos of my claims stand or fall on their own merits. And I couldn’t care any less who you have debated with. I care whether your points make sense, are true, and support some conclusion you draw.

          I never changed any terms either (go back through the thread if you doubt me). What I said about the mutiny previously was that I wasn’t blaming Dumars for it because it was a totally unprecedented occurrence. So how could he possibly anticipate it? The fact that other, bigger problems have happened is irrelevant to that.

          However, I did blame him for the factors that led to the mutiny (putting together a team that couldn’t compete with overly high expectations and a coach who couldn’t get any respect). I don’t care whether they mutinied or not. I care that they fit that description.

  • Jul 19, 201311:29 pm
    by gordbrown

    Reply

    glad to know the freep is not a credible source. as opposed to a guy in his basement. gotcha

    • Jul 20, 201312:27 am
      by Max

      Reply

      Otis is incredible.   His average posts reads like the rantings of an angry Hulk.   I don’t like him when he’s angry. 

  • Jul 22, 20136:36 pm
    by tarsier

    Reply

    “ If you don’t have any all time greats and the all stars you do have are past their prime, how much can you really expect to get if you trade them?”

    My expectations were not that high. He didn’t need to get a ton of assets for them. But there is a big difference between trading them for minor assets and letting them walk for nothing (like Sheed and Dyess did) and an even bigger difference in re-siging them and letting them become liabilities instead of assets (like Rip and Tay).

    “I’m obviously a big Dumars supporter but I did think it was wrong to trade Billups (and Prince) and I do hold these trades against him.”

    This is hilarious because I am not a Dumars fan and I don’t hold either of those against him.

    “However, unlike you, I focus on the positive rather than the negative, largely because winning a ring, getting to multiple finals and contending for six straight years is something that I believe less than ten current GMs are capable of pulling off regardless of their circumstances.”

    As did I. But at some point, you have to look to the future rather than the past. He has not made many good moves in a long time. More problematic to me is what appears to be a lack of vision. If he had what looked like a decent plan and it didn’t work out (like the Billups trade), that’s fine–that happens. But I demand to see some sort of over arching strategy. How long he gets to rest on his laurels is a matter of opinion. To me, 5 years is enough. But I could see an argument for 3 or for 12.

    “I think you are incredibly off in your assessment that nearly any random commentator could draft as well as Dumars–or any GM for that matter.”

    Dumars is a fantastic drafter. I have long said I would love to keep him in the scouting department. But his acumen has really shined in late picks. The fact that some idiots wouldn’t have taken Monroe or Drummond be damned. I’m sure at least 90% of people, with the options he had at those points and the glaring holes at the bigs on the roster, would have taken Monroe and Drummond for the Pistons. Knight I can give him more credit for if he works out. Probably only about 2/3 of people would have taken him for the Pistons there. If Pope turns out to be the right pick, I’ll give him major props for that too.

    “What proven GM, as in created a sustainable contender, is available?”

    Who needs proven? All proven GMs were unproven at some point. I would want the new GM to “prove” himself to the owner by presenting him with a clear plan for how to return the team to contention.

    Final thought: GMing might be really hard. But do we really know that? It’s not like many jobs out there where a system kind of allows the cream of the crop to rise to the top. There are only a few positions available and getting a foot in the door typically requires knowing the right people. This isn’t like getting into the NBA where we can see thousands of players put what they have on the floor for years and then choose the best of them. 

    • Jul 22, 201310:07 pm
      by Max

      Reply

      You didn’t address my argument about whether it is worth it to trade former all stars and all time great from a franchise (not league) standpoint for minor assets.   It doesn’t matter anyway.  It’s just a question of philosophy and my point is that whether you get minor assets or not, the franchise is going to struggle and wind up with lottery picks.   The team did struggle and did get those picks.   Personally as a fan, I like to see my favorite players retire with the franchise and possible move into the front office  and coaching and positions.  I don’t like alienating those types for minor assets.  I also think it doesn’t look good to players around the league when players like Paul Pierce and Kevin Garnett are moved for draft picks.  Obviously you disagree with this line of thinking but you can’t say there is nothing to the idea of whether players see franchises treating the stars that have titles for them with loyalty.   

      Regarding Prince and Billups refer to above paragraph.    

      The point about Dumars being a proven GM is also about the fact that over 90 percent of GMs are hired and fired and accomplish nothing.   Forget titles even.   Over 90 percent of them never get to the conference finals even once.  

      I think being a GM is much harder than you realize and I also think that knowing the people around the league (which is why you say they get hired in the first place) is incredibly important to whether they can make good deals with other GMs and players.   You or I have no credibility with NBA people at all unless you are some insider in disguise.   If we were hired tomorrow, no player with options would want to play for us and no other GM would settle for any deal that didn’t take advantage of us.   Picking coaches is incredibly difficult and picking assistants is even harder if you don’t know these people inside and out.    

      • Jul 23, 20138:13 am
        by tarsier

        Reply

        “no other GM would settle for any deal that didn’t take advantage of us.   Picking coaches is incredibly difficult and picking assistants is even harder if you don’t know these people inside and out.  ”

        That’s probably all true. But it doesn’t support the idea that being a GM is a particularly difficult job or that the people who’ve lucked their way into those positions are less likely to make mistakes. I guess my main reasons for this line of thought are signings like Gordon and Villanueva. Most people looked at those right off the bat and said they were stupid moves. They turned out to be worse than predicted, but there is something wrong with a GM being excited about a move that just about everyone else knows is going to fail.

        I have my doubts on the player front. I think very few players ever choose to go somewhere based on who the GM is (salary, teammates, location, and coach are probably the first priorities in order). 

  • Jul 23, 20131:48 pm
    by Max

    Reply

    It supports the idea the being a GM requires extensive experience regarding the personages of the league who develop into coaches, assistant coaches, trainers, scouts, media, etc.   You can’t just pick someone off the street and have any credibility or intimate knowledge with these people.     

    I think you are right that most players don’t choose to go somewhere based on who the GM is but consider that almost all of the GMs around the league are considered to at least be known commodities  and not some clown off the street.   The culture of a team is also top down.   It begins with what an owner is willing to do and since most GMs come in, fire everyone and bring in their own people and players, everything you listed come from an empowered or non-empowered GM in terms of spending other than location.   I also said that no player with options would play for you or I.   Obviously, there are players who if they had no other equal or near equal options would chase the money.   

    Regarding your list of what players care about consider Elgin Baylor’s long tenure as GM with the Clippers.   He was one of the greatest players of all time but he was the one of the least successful GMs of all time even though he kept his job from 1986 to 2008.   In that 22 year span as GM, the Clippers made the playoffs four times, getting to second round once–and people seem to think Dumars missing the playoffs four times is some kind of scarlet letter which he should be fired for.   During his tenure, the Clippers were the joke of the league and no one of any note would take Baylor’s money despite being in LA and having some good coaches like Larry Brown.   Again, he kept his job for 22 years without having any success and people want Joe Dumars fired.   Anyone remember Wes Unseld with the Bullets?   Willis Reed with the Nets?  I could go on and on.   Dumars is an elite GM.  Firing him would be like trading a top five (or top ten player at the least) for nothing.    

    I didn’t like the Gordon and Charlie V signings at the time but I think you are wrong to say everyone knew they would go badly.  I certainly didn’t and didn’t like them principally because I am a fanatic about the Pistons playing great defense since I chose the Pistons as my team in the mid eighties because they played the style that drew me in and I wasn’t going to be a Knicks fan.  Leaving that, Gordon’s career numbers with the Bulls were pretty similar to Reggie Miller’s career numbers and Charlie V was a young player coming off of a good year.   I really don’t think anyone thought they’d perform quite as badly as they did.  

    BTW: People love Daryl Morey right now and they should but he had plenty of lean years and if you look at his record, he is very like Dumars in that he never tanked and has generally taken the half and half approach when he didn’t have a contender in place.   The half and half approach is about having options if option A doesn’t work out.   It’s a lot like a single play in the league.   You don’t go with your first option for a play no matter but have several options in case things break down and the first or second or third option don’t work out.   It may take longer but it is better for every move you make to encompass both a short term and long term plan.    

    • Jul 23, 20133:00 pm
      by tarsier

      Reply

      I certainly wouldn’t fire Dumars for four seasons of missing the playoffs. It’s his apparent lack of vision that bothers me. It is entirely possible that if I had the opportunity, like Gores has had, to sit down with him and discuss team-building strategies that I would think otherwise. But I don’t have that opportunity, so I do think poorly of Dumars.

      And yes, you don’t just hire someone off the street. But there are lots of smart NBA personnel to choose from who would be over the moon at the chance to be a GM. Who was Masai Ujiri before the Nuggets hired him? A decade ago he was an unpaid scout for the Magic.

      • Jul 23, 201311:24 pm
        by Max

        Reply

        And what has Ujiri won?   Why do you have any confidence that he has what is takes to put together a long sustained run in the NBA?   Are you telling me you’d rather him as GM right now?   

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