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Brandon Knight probably thinks he’s the Pistons’ best point guard

Vincent Goodwill of The Detroit News recently wrote an article called “Brandon Knight: I’m best man for Pistons’ point guard job.” That’s not a direct quote from Knight, and newspaper reporters rarely write their own headlines, so it’s unlikely Goodwill – the person who presumably interviewed Knight – decided on that paraphrasing.

So, it’s unclear exactly what Knight said.

We have this paraphrasing from Goodwill:

In his mind, Knight believes there’s no better point guard for the job than the one the Pistons selected two years earlier

And this setup and quote:

Knight said it doesn’t take rocket science to figure out his situation, that the “he’s not a point guard” chapter on his career shouldn’t yet be finalized.

“If you think about it using common sense,” said Knight, who averaged four assists and shot 37 percent from 3-point range last season. “First year (2011-12) was a lockout, didn’t have that summer. Next year, played half the year (at point guard). I pretty much played it for a full year. Some of the best point guards don’t take a year to develop into what they are. They are given an opportunity to develop. Using common sense, I played it (around) 80 games.”

It seems like the question was a variation of, “Should the Pistons give up on you as a point guard?” And if that’s the case, the answer is of course no. Knight offers more value if he develops as a point guard than a shooting guard, and he might be the Pistons’ best point guard right now.

But if the question was a variation of, “Are you a good point guard?” Knight’s arguments has flaws. Nearly everyone who has stuck as a starting point guard in the NBA has produced better in their first 80 games at the position, and it’s not like Knight is the first player to face challenges.

Back to the article’s headline, does Knight think he’s the Pistons’ best point guard? I don’t think the article says clearly, but that doesn’t matter.

Of course he does.

So does Rodney Stuckey and so does Will Bynum. Peyton Siva probably does, too. That’s just how these guys think.

Knight should have that confidence, and that will help him, but that alone won’t get the job done.

I’d be very disappointed if the Pistons enter the season with only Knight, Stuckey and Bynum as their point guards. Knight has proven he can beat those two for the starting job – whether it’s truly an open competition is another question – but he hasn’t proven he’s a worthwhile starting point guard.

It’s possible Knight makes the leap necessary for him to be a successful starting point guard, but again winning the job over those two gives next to no indication Knight has dramatically improved. Beating a better alternative would do that, and it would give Detroit a viable option if Knight hasn’t jumped forward.

82 Comments

  • Jul 10, 201310:10 am
    by I HATE FRANK

    Reply

    My only defense for Knight is He played for horrible coach, In a horrible system and other than Monroe he played the majority of his minutes with a horrible line up that was not balanced …. for his first 2 seasons…

    Its not that I think Knight potential should carry him forever, but it should be enough to have him as our starting PG this year… And if he fails, then please … Switch him out ….

     

    • Jul 10, 201312:31 pm
      by tarsier

      Reply

      I asked you this before but got no response. What the heck do you mean by a “balanced roster”?

      How was this roster imbalanced? It wasn’t very good, sure. But it was a fairly traditional roster with the exception of lacking a PG who can pass and take care of the ball. With that lone exception, take an average NBA roster, make it 25% worse, and you have the Pistons of the last couple years.”

      And Knight has had a bad coach, but not a historically awful one. Just a run of the mill bad coach. Most starting caliber players will be only a little worse with a bad coach. 

      • Jul 10, 201312:44 pm
        by Javell

        Reply

        Tayshaun himself made the offense unstable by holdning the ball not letting knight run the offense

        • Jul 10, 201312:48 pm
          by sebastian

          Reply

          … or Stuckey. Tay eas in the way, big time!

          • Jul 10, 20133:23 pm
            by sebastian

            I was meaning to type: “Tay was in the way big time!” Joe should be commended for his ability to move Tay, when he did. I didn’t agree with the 4 year, $30 million contract that Tay was offered in ’11, but Joe found a way to move that contract and thus create room for fresh new faces like, Josh Smith.
            Memphis were suckers for taking Tay and Daye from off of OUR hands.

        • Jul 10, 20133:12 pm
          by Brandon Knight

          Reply

          yes I agree with you. Also everytime when Knight was running the offense Frank would yell and tell him to pass the ball to Tay…. And I said this before but when Bynum and Stuckey were on the court with him they controlled the ball and Brandon switched to SG. 

          • Jul 10, 20133:34 pm
            by oats

            His rookie year he sort of shared duties with Stuckey, changing who was running the team on almost a possession basis. Before the trade this year that didn’t happen at all. It was very clearly Knight’s job to run the offense. That resulted in no change for Knight. It’s not like other guys never play with ball dominant teammates. Every point guard has to deal with that some. Tony Parker doesn’t have his assists plummet whenever Manu starts with him. They might drop a little bit, but not all that significantly. Knight was the primary ball handler for about 40 games this year and he sucked.

        • Jul 11, 20134:29 pm
          by G

          Reply

          That’s some fuzzy history. The reality is Tay, Stuckey, and at times Monroe all took turns at leading the offense because Knight wasn’t up to the task. He had stretches where he would turn it over on 2 or 3 consecutive possessions. Tay & Stuckey weren’t stealing his thunder, they were cleaning up after him. The problem with BOTH was that instead of leading the offense they dribbled the air out of the ball.

  • Jul 10, 201310:21 am
    by Crispus

    Reply

    That last sentence is structured so bizarrely.

    • Jul 10, 201312:28 pm
      by Quin

      Reply

      Basically, he’s saying … Kidding, I can’t explain that.
       

  • Jul 10, 201310:22 am
    by Blocks by Dre

    Reply

    Coach Frank is a horrible coach who would probably have a hard time making even Rondo look good. Exaggerating? Maybe but I firmly belie e that most of Knights struggles was because we had a buffoon as our coach. Lets see how he does with Mo Cheeks before we dictate whether or not he can be a good starting PG for our team.

    Otherwise, trade Monroe for Rondo. That makes us better and opens more minutes to the much more athletic Tony Mitchell and allows Luigi (maybe?) to start at SF and push Smith at the 4 with Drummond manning the 5. Knight, KCP and Luigi can shoot and Smith and Drummond can bang low

    • Jul 10, 201312:33 pm
      by tarsier

      Reply

      Show me some historical precedent for a bad coach being the reason a player looks way worse than he really is.

      • Jul 10, 20131:12 pm
        by Worm

        Reply

        There is none. People are looking for a sacrificial lamb to explain why Knight has been so bad. Of course you already knew that and your statement was rhetorical, but still.

  • Jul 10, 201310:38 am
    by mike

    Reply

    1 lockout season, 1/2 season playing sg, plagued by injury, no one to pass it to, horrible head coach, and he has a non stop motor……. i think he deserves another shot

  • Jul 10, 201310:50 am
    by Kamal

    Reply

    How long did it take Gary Payton to become good? 3, 4 years? After playing 4 years of college? And playing with a veteran team early on that featured two of the best catch and shoot players of all time in Eddie Johnson and Rickey Pierce; not to mention a young lob machine in Shawn Kemp.

    Knight has two glaring weaknesses to his game that he needs to fix in order to keep his job deservedly: stop throwing the ball to the opposing team and learn to make the entry pass to the post. If he can do those two things then he should be able to stick around in the starting line up and learn the other intricacies of the position. He’ll most certainly be as good as Gary Payton but he can be a solid starter for years to come. 

    • Jul 10, 201312:33 pm
      by Huddy

      Reply

      He certainly won’t be Gary Payton and yet you are using Payton as an example of why Knight will be much better than he is now?  What does this have to do with anything?  You are saying because players exist in history that have improved after 3 years that is reason enough to believe Knight will?  Thats like arguing that every young player in the NBA COULD get better…and you don’t even think he will become that good anyway.  Everyone needs to just stop with comparisons like this unless they can answer why there is any reason to believe Knight is like Gary Payton or Chauncey Billups or Steve Nash.
       

      • Jul 10, 20132:02 pm
        by Kamal

        Reply

        I brought up Gary Payton because Seattle stuck with him despite him being below average his first three seasons which I think Detroit should do with Knight.  

        Most PG failures don’t get the opportunities and chances that Payton got.  They either get traded or benched after a subpar first or second season of starting (Jonny Flynn got 1 season before he went to the bench).

        Most PG successes are either given the greenlight or surrounded by good/solid veterans.  Brandon Knight was given neither.  Payton was surrounded by vets that would make any point guard look good (Pierce and Johnson).

        I think the Pistons need to ride with Knight.  Get him the right pieces, guidance and/or coaching before we decide if he’s destined for the bench.  Do I think Knight will be as good as what Gary Payton eventually turned into – a Hall of Famer?  No.  But I think he’ll be a solid starter.  

        • Jul 10, 20132:39 pm
          by Huddy

          Reply

          Johnny Flynn?? he can’t even make a roster now.  You really think that is because he didn’t get extended starter minutes?  Teams have a little more at their disposal for evaluating players than watching them start games on TV..hes just not that good.
           
          Payton didn’t have a subpar first couple of seasons.  He played under 30 min a night his first season, but his per 36 numbers were abot 10pts 8 assists and 2.5 TOs with 2.5 STLs…those are good starting PG numbers especially for a guy not asked to score a lot…this is close to what Calderon averaged in his prime (minus some scoring).  Even in limited minutes Payton would have been on par for passing numbers with this year’s Conley, Lillard, Irving, Jennings, Curry, Lawson…if Knight was anything like this no one would complain about letting him develop.
           
          Is there any reason to believe Knight wasn’t given the green light?  what do you even mean? allowed to pass the ball…I doubt thats the issue.  Irving, Walker, Vasquez, all on bad teams and all produce more.

          • Jul 10, 20134:44 pm
            by Kamal

            I DO believe that Jonny Flynn was given the hook too early.  At 20 years old, he put up 13.5 and 4.4 in 29 minutes per game.  Based on your theory, Conley and Tony Parker  should’ve been given the hook after their first seasons too.  Now Flynn turned the ball over more but a guy can work on those.

            I just think for some guys, it takes time.  Not everybody comes into the league like Isiah Thomas.  Some are careless with the ball.  Some can’t shoot.  Some can’t pass well.  Some can’t play D.  Some can’t catch up with the NBA speed.

            With Monroe and Drummond, all Knight really needs to do is hold onto the ball, make the entry pass and knock down the 3 ball to keep defenses honest.  I don’t think that’s a far reach for him.   

          • Jul 10, 20138:37 pm
            by oats

            Flynn’s turnover numbers stunk though. Also, didn’t he get hurt and not come back the same after that. He was crazy awful after that. Yeah, Flynn had problems, but a quick hook isn’t it.
             
            I don’t want to talk for Huddy, but let’s look at Parker and Conley. Tony Parker put up 5.6 assists and 2.6 turnovers per 36 in his second season. Not great, but a hell of a lot better than Knight. Conley put up 5.1 assists and 2.1 turnovers. Once again, not great but still a lot better than Knight. Both of those guys did enough to think it made sense to keep with them because they did a decent job taking care of the ball. Knight puts up fewer assists and gets more turnovers, which is extremely problematic. It’s not just a low assist number that is problematic for Knight, although it should be noted that is also problem. It’s the combination of few assists and lots of turnovers that equates to him not being a starting PG.

    • Jul 10, 20131:53 pm
      by frankie d

      Reply

      payton came into the league and was good enough as a rookie to displace a guy – nate mcmillan – who had a 3-1 assist/to ratio.
      he had 6.4 assists, 2.2 to’s a game as a rookie.  he came into the league playing nba level defense.  he was a real freak of nature, a big -6’4″ PG with the speed and quickness of a little 6 footer.
      payton is not the best comparison.
      imho, i think siva plays the PG position better than knight, right now.  he understands tempo, how to set guys up, controlling the ball, all of those point guard-type things that knight is pretty horrible at right now.
      he is not better than knight as a basketball player right now -knight’s shooting sets him apart from siva, who is apparently a very bad shooter – but he seems to have a much stronger grasp on what it takes to be a point guard.
      i’ve said for a while that i think siva will get a surprising amount of PT under cheeks and he’s done nothing to move me away from that view.  cheeks will tolerate the missed shots as long as siva does the other stuff – defend, set guys up, penetrate – that cheeks wants his PG to do.
      and siva looks a heckuva lot like the old cheeks who played for the 76ers.  cheeks made himself into a decent jumpshooter as the years went by, but his shot was flat, very mechanical and very, very ugly.  cheeks was exceptionally smart about only shooting shots that he either had to take or shots that were very high percentage shots -shots in the lane, in transition.  
      i’m sure the fact that he plays so much like cheeks doesn’t hurt his chances to stick with the club. 

      • Jul 10, 20132:03 pm
        by frankie d

        Reply

        this is a youtube compilation about cheeks the player.  if you listen to it, you’d swear the players were describing siva.  darryl dawkins even talks about cheeks getting teased because cheeks didn’t have a jump shot.
        fwiw, there is also a great clip of a young doc rivers talking about cheeks. worth a look if only to understand the kind of player cheeks was.

        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SV6uelW3_wY

    • Jul 10, 20133:49 pm
      by oats

      Reply

      @ Kamal. Frankie beat me to most of it, but let me add something. Point guards at least show a basic aptitude for passing the basketball early on if they are ever going to be good passers. Gary Payton came in to the league with more than that even. Payton flat out could pass the ball right from the start, with a 2.9 assist to turnover ratio as a rookie. Guys who can’t get to a 2-1 assist to turnover ratio in their first to seasons pretty much never develop into the kind of passer that can be a quality starting point guard. Knight has 2 years of play with a ratio at 1.5-1. That’s just not good enough.

      • Jul 10, 20134:29 pm
        by Kamal

        Reply

        During my first post, I said that the two glaring weaknesses in his game IMO is that he throws the ball to the other team often and can’t make the entry pass to the post.  So, I know Knight doesn’t pass well.  He needs to improve in these areas.  He CAN improve in these areas.

        As for the Payton comparisons, I’m not fighting you guys.  Knight will probably never be as good as Payton was at his best.  But in regards to his assist numbers, Payton played with better players.  In transition point guard A throws it to the wings where either Eddie Johnson or Rickey Pierce catches it and shoots it.  Point guard B passes it to Kyle Singler or Rodney Stuckey.  Which point guard is likely to get the assist.  Fast break?  Point guard A has Shawn Kemp running with him.  Point guard B has Jason Maxiell.  Again, who’s more likely to get the assist.

        i’m not one of the Knight fan boys.  I just think that you don’t jerk a young point guard around by putting him on then off the ball, starter then to the bench.  He needs consistency and reps with familiar players.

        • Jul 10, 20135:46 pm
          by oats

          Reply

          Knight also stinks at running the pick and roll. Can’t forget that. He can make progress here, but I seriously can’t think of a single precedent of a guy who has shown as little as Knight ever making enough progress to even resemble a starting PG. Even the go to Chauncey Billups comparison misses that Billups was still a better passer than Knight, and Billups is so far outside the norm that he’s a pretty useless point of comparison anyways. Guys make progress as passers all the time. They don’t go from having no ability to run an offense to competently running one though. That just doesn’t happen.
           
          Detroit is not that awful. You didn’t mention Monroe for example. The teammates thing is really overblown. Let’s look at per 36 numbers on Knight and Payton real quick. As a rookie, Payton averaged 8.5 assists and 2.9 turnovers. Knight averaged 4.6 assists and 3.1 turnovers this year. Knight’s teammates did not cost him 4 assists per 36 minutes this year. Even players on bad teams get assists if they are good passers. Charlotte was worse than Detroit and Walker still had decent passing numbers. That’s despite them shooting a lower percentage on assisted shot attempts. The amount that the team hurt Knight is greatly exaggerated. Knight is just not a good passer.
           
          As for the getting jerked around thing, his situation isn’t that bad. He got the starting PG job pretty early on as a rookie and got a ton of minutes. He then had the starting job outright this year, and once again had a lot of minutes. It was only after he had a pretty good sample size of him not showing any signs of progress on offense that they started moving him off the ball this year. Simply put, he has had an opportunity to demonstrate a basic level of competence as a passer and he has failed to do so. He has not demonstrated a basic aptitude for the position.

          • Jul 10, 20136:19 pm
            by Kamal

            I didn’t mention Monroe because he plays center.  Kemp and Maxiell played the same position. Monroe wasn’t on the break that often.  

            And yes, Brandon Knight needs to improve his passing.  I agree.  I think he can.  You think he can’t.  I think as he gets older and stronger, the game should slow down for him. Will he ever be John Stockton?  No.  Can he be a middle of the road passer?  I think so.  This team is going to win or lose on the front line.  We just need adequate play from the point – not stellar.

          • Jul 10, 20137:28 pm
            by oats

            But Monroe is still better for getting assists than Michael Cage. Guys don’t have to be on the break to get the PG assists you know, and centers are traditionally helpful in getting assists too.
             
            You are somewhat misstating my opinion on Knight, but that’s because I have not given it in its entirety. Knight can improve as a passer. Right now he is a horrible passer for a PG. Even with improvements he is extremely unlikely to become a competent enough passer to justify starting him at the point. He could become a solid 6th man that runs the offense while the starting PG is on the bench, but as of now he is a bad reserve PG. I’m not looking for stellar either. I think the odds of him being even adequate as a starter are too small to be worth mentioning. I don’t mind the team wanting to see if he can turn it around. He probably should get some minutes playing PG off the bench to see if he can demonstrate even an inkling of competency. If he does that, and so far he has not done that, then the team should see about maybe giving him a bigger role later. The odds of that happening are just too small for it to make sense to do more than that, and I think it’s a big mistake for the team not to at least bring in a guy that will really compete with Knight for the starting job.

          • Jul 10, 20137:56 pm
            by DetroitP

            Oats, Im sorry but your belief that the players around him doesn’t affect his overall play?  You have to be kidding me.  The guy was passing to Singler! they don’t even have his face on 2k.  (I don’t think hes THAT bad but the guy is clearly at best a rotational player) He had no real direction, with no real vets on the team.   He had not a single scorer he could pass too.  This definately had an affect on his overall play.  I think he deserves a shot.

          • Jul 10, 20138:22 pm
            by oats

            If that’s what you took from what I said then you really missed what I was saying. The poor teammates hurt him, but that doesn’t mean the extent isn’t being exaggerated. Point guards can get assists with really crappy teammates. Again, Kemba Walker has better passing numbers with worse teammates. There’s a long list of PGs who have done more with as little or less. Knight has been bad, even relative to how bad his team is.
             
            Also, Monroe is a scorer. To say he had didn’t have a single scorer is asinine.

      • Jul 10, 20135:11 pm
        by Who Is Us

        Reply

        The other point that Jamal made that you all are missing, it is a big one for all of you to understand understand and is a  huge reason why nobody should be giving up on Knight right now. Gary Payton played four years at Oregon State, four years of DI coaching, playing, and development that a guy like Knight didn’t have coming into the NBA. Payton had that time to hone his craft, mature, and build strength in a college program before coming to the NBA. He was also 22 before he ever played a single NBA game, Knight won’t be 22 until the December of this season. That development is important, especially for a position like PG where they are expected to run the team, that is development that L. Frank was Ok equipped to provided and clearly didn’t foster in Knight. Now that he has a good coach who understands how to coach his position and better teammates around him let’s see what he does now before passing judgments on this kid.

        • Jul 10, 20136:07 pm
          by oats

          Reply

          Fine, let’s go back to freshman seasons in college. Gary Payton averaged 7.6 assists and 3.1 turnovers. Knight averaged 4.2 assists and 3.2 turnovers. Payton had a huge advantage here even as college freshmen. You’ll notice that Payton was also well over that 2-1 ratio I was talking about while Knight was basically the same as he is now. Gary Payton became a good point guard because he had a knack for the position that Knight does not have. There are guys with similar numbers to Knight in college that turn it around in the pros. The problem is they all showed signs that they would do it in their first 2 years in the league and Knight hasn’t.
           
          Give me an example of a one and done player who had 1.5 assists per turnover his first two seasons and then became a good passer. Give me an example of any player who stunk that badly and became a good passer. I’ve got nothing. This just isn’t a good argument. There are examples of guys that took time to develop, but all of those guys still showed more competency in the beginning part of their career than Knight has. I might give this argument more credence if Knight had shown any progress at all offensively as a point guard from his rookie season. He didn’t. He is the exact same player on offense now as he was at Kentucky.

          • Jul 10, 20138:28 pm
            by Who Is Us

            Chauncey Billups.

          • Jul 10, 20138:49 pm
            by oats

            Ugh. Ok, Chauncey is the biggest rarity I can come up with. He played with 3 teams in 2 years, and was moved full time to SG before his second year in the league even started. If you want the profile of a guy who didn’t get a chance, it’s Chauncey. He still doesn’t qualify for what I’m talking about. He was at 1.8 assists per turnover as a rookie. Over his first 2 years he was at 1.7. Knight is under 1.5 over his 2 years. So even using the guy who had the most unprecedented turnaround of all time, he still was better than Knight. Seriously, let’s look at Chauncey’s per 36 from his time in Boston. That’s his rookie year before he got traded. 15.7 points, 6 assists, and 3.3 turnovers. Knight is at 15.2 points, 4.6 assists, and 3.1 turnovers. Billups clearly showed more reason to have faith in him during those first 51 games than Knight has given in his 2 year career.
             
            Does it really make sense to bank on any one player making the same kind of turnaround as Billups? Especially one who is in a significantly better situation than Billups was in? Especially when he actually showed less of an aptitude for the position than Billups?

          • Jul 10, 20139:51 pm
            by Who Is Us?

            You asked for an example, I gave you one.
             
            The point isn’t that he will become the next Billups, the point is that he can improve, it can be done. Quit righting him off and saying that he will never be any good because he had 1 1/2 sub par seasons.

          • Jul 11, 201312:52 am
            by tarsier

            “You asked for an example, I gave you one.”

            No. You didn’t. The statement was:
            “Give me an example of a one and done player who had 1.5 assists per turnover his first two seasons and then became a good passer.”

            Chauncey Billups was better than that his first two seasons. That would be like if I said to give me an example of someone under 6’6″ who had succeeded as a center and you gave me an example of someone who was 6’8″. 

          • Jul 11, 20131:52 am
            by oats

            No, you didn’t give one. Billups was better than him. I’m not saying that Knight won’t be good by the way. I’m saying that he almost certainly won’t be a good starting PG. There is plenty of room to be a good player without being a good starting PG. I think he’d be better as a SG, although his height might make him more of a 6th man. The difference between a really good 6th man and a low end starter is pretty minimal, and often times the 6th man is better.

  • Jul 10, 201311:17 am
    by ryan

    Reply

    I believe in Brandon Knight.

  • Jul 10, 201311:23 am
    by RL

    Reply

    I agree. Give the young man one more shot

  • Jul 10, 201311:24 am
    by MIKEYDE248

    Reply

    Has he done anything that shows us that he is going to be a good PG, not really, but we do have to acknowledge the fact that he is only 21 years old, played for a bad coach, didn’t have anyone to pass the ball to and has very few NBA games played.

    He is a very hard worker and someone who is always looking for ways to improve his game.  With better players around him and “hopefully” a better coach, he will start to look more like a starting PG.

    • Jul 10, 201311:34 am
      by MIKEYDE248

      Reply

      The other thing we have to remember is that the PG position was normally concider the hardest one to learn and also took the most time to get a handle on it.  It’s just that the bar has been raised by a couple of PG like Kyrie Irving, Derrick Rose or Chris Paul, but most point guards take a little longer to get to that level.

      • Jul 10, 201312:37 pm
        by tarsier

        Reply

        “the PG position was normally concider the hardest one to learn and also took the most time to get a handle on it”

        I’ve read comments saying that (for both PG and C). But I have never seen any evidence for it at all. Do you have any? Even a shaky article by an actual analyst–rather than an internet chat board comment–claiming as much?

    • Jul 10, 201312:54 pm
      by Huddy

      Reply

      I think your point is addressed when Dan says, “Nearly everyone who has stuck as a starting point guard in the NBA has produced better in their first 80 games at the position.”   “Nearly everyone” includes other guys that left college early, other guys who play for bad coaches (there are really only a handful of really good coaches), guys who are handed the starting job right away, etc. 
       
      It is certainly possible that more time and better players/coaches help him make the jump, but the real question is how likely.  Most guys who start off like he has don’t make the leap so I guess everyone who lists all the excuses for why he has been how he has been and why he will be what he will be might need to understand that people who question knight’s future aren’t just blind haters.  It is definitely at least a toss up and probably is more likely a bust than a star.

  • Jul 10, 201311:24 am
    by RyanK

    Reply

    I have to disagree about Knight being the best point guard.  While it’s clear we don’t have any good point guards on the team, Stuckey has demonstrated the first necessary skill better than Knight: protecting the ball.  For that matter, Bynum has also.   Siva has done that in SL as well.

    Knight not only struggles to find teammates, he struggles to avoid turnover by a pressure defender.  Knight mentioned changing speeds instead of going all out will help keep his defender back.  One thing is for sure, he’ll deal with guys coming right at him until he makes them pay for getting up in his grill. At this time, I bet most scouting reports say pressure Knight because his ballhandling is so weak…

    Now they’re saying Knight needs a bigger t-shirt because he’s hulked out…okay, how’s his ball-handling?  They wrote about his 12 hour workouts last summer that would pay dividends for the Pistons…so my expectations were high…you really saw no improvement last season.  Maybe it’s because he was pressured more last year, but if anything he regressed.  He had a few games where it seemed like he was getting it, but most the time I was relieved when I saw him pass the ball off to a better ballhandler like Stuckey or Prince.

     

    • Jul 10, 201311:35 am
      by I HATE FRANK

      Reply

      When we drafted Knight I said we were getting an attack PG … One a team that really needed scoring, Yet Frank wanted him to be a facilitating PG with no one to pass to…

      As Bynum was a great spark of the bench, and the line up he played with was more balanced than the line up Knight played with… 

      • Jul 10, 201312:41 pm
        by tarsier

        Reply

        Just a quick question:

        Is there any other player in NBA history whose shortcomings you would place so much blame for on the shoulders of the coach? 

  • Jul 10, 201311:29 am
    by Lee

    Reply

    BK will be just fine. He’s def the right guy for the job,and Im glad we have him. This upcoming season will be his best yet! You’ll see!

  • Jul 10, 201311:34 am
    by ffz

    Reply

    honestly under Lawrence frank our guards either stayed the same in terms of development or got worse

    • Jul 10, 20131:00 pm
      by RyanK

      Reply

      Is that a result of the guards, or Frank?  It’s amazing to me that everything these guys did wrong was Franks fault…particularly loafing on the court.  These guys are supposed to be professionals, so I don’t want to hear it that Frank didn’t command respect…if they can’t play hard, they lack basketball character.

  • Jul 10, 201311:42 am
    by Mel

    Reply

    Everyone is worried about Knight who’s barely played two full seasons at the position. It took Jeff Teague for seasons before he broke out last year and there a bunch of point guards that took time before they became stronger players. The problem for Knight is that he didn’t have a player like Billips in his ear to school him during his time here. Billips like Knight took Larry Brown to teach him how to run the point. You can’t rush the process.Unless you got rid of him and that would be stupid.

    • Jul 10, 201312:29 pm
      by rick77

      Reply

      Uh Billups learned under Flip Saunders and had Terrel Brandon to learn from. I think you give Larry to much credit especially considering Rick Carlisle was next in line to help further develop him. By the time Larry came around all he had to do was coach them up, and let them play. Knight is a two trapped in a point guards body. If you look at him w/o the Pistons colored glasses on then you’ll see it. His ceiling is Jason Terry at best, and that is not a bad comparison. I’m mad somebody mentioned Gary Payton with him as an outlier. Smdh on that one.

      • Jul 10, 201312:35 pm
        by Quin

        Reply

        Thank you, Rick. I was going to say the same thing. Carlisle had the Pistons improved to best record in the east two seasons in a row, and rising in the playoffs. He coached the Pistons to beat Brown’s Iverson led Sixers to the Eastern Conference Finals. Then he was replaced by Brown. :/ The Pistons were poised to win, especially with the addition of Rasheed. Their chemistry was baked in. Brown was just there to profit from it. And he sort of screwed up their second run at a title.

    • Jul 10, 201312:44 pm
      by tarsier

      Reply

      It took Teague two seasons before he started getting any significant playing time. But his per minute numbers and efficiency in such important PG categories as AST:TO were rock solid before then.

      • Jul 10, 20131:00 pm
        by Huddy

        Reply

        I swear MPG is the most overlooked column when people are looking up stats to defend their points.

  • Jul 10, 201311:48 am
    by koz

    Reply

    Knight should be at the two because he is a better shooter, scorer then distributer. Let stuckey run the point, he’s not as good of a shooter, but a better ball handler, bigger, stronger, hopefully this year more controlled and patient. But knight can really shoot the three, so let him play at a position better suited to his skills, which is spotting up for threes. Hopefully cheeks will get all this stuff right.

  • Jul 10, 201312:57 pm
    by Derek AKA Redeemed

    Reply

    I am glad Knight said it.

    Now he’s put pressure on himself to back it up

    #makeorbreakyear
    #giterdoneBK7

  • Jul 10, 20131:24 pm
    by Ozzie-Moto

    Reply

    Both Knight and Stuckey are poor choices for Point Guard … JUST ADMIT IT .. i am so tired of trying to fit these square pegs in a round hole.  Knight Assist to TO is atrocious and while Stuckey protect the ball better (ala C. Billups ) but I can’t remember A SINGLE FAST BREAK that he ran ever!  What is with the constant overrating of your teams players …   Reading boards about the pistons drives me crazy… Loyalty is a great thing with your friend / family / work associates etc.  But loyalty to player that will often make huge paydays on incredible lousy play is just silly.  I have read in the last weeks that we can’t possibly cut Kim English. Can’t trade JJ or Singler. That Middleton is THE FUTURE. Also i like Monroe but he IS NOT AN ALSTAR .. until he can shoot a reliable 15 footer and defend he a good piece. I even read that we HAVE to resign J Max .  Really ? ….. In the end whether your a quick paced team or a set offense team you still need inside scorers / Shooters/ Passing / Pick and Roll / Slashers / Defenders … At the moment we still have to many players that are really So So and have no special strength that has to be accounted for. Out Guards ( Stuckey / Knight / English / offer nether lights out shooting or make everyone better passing or great Pick and Roll or penetration (except an occasional out burst for Bynum)   We have a load of  ”Utility” Forwards.. While Smith has Talent sans shooting everyone else is just MUSH …. JJ / Singler / Max (last year) how man ” Utility” men do you need … So Dru / Smith / Pope (assuming he lives up to billing) Luigi / Mitchell at least know who they are on the floor. Monroe are a 4 we will have to see long term. He a unusual player in that he all low post moves and passing. All the rest are filler.   So back to B Knight: When i see him get to a 2 / 1 TO to Assist ratio and make some GREAT passes on the break and throw the LOB to Dru THEN he can be the best POINT GUARD for the Pistons 

    • Jul 10, 20131:57 pm
      by Max

      Reply

      The best point guard on the Pistons in order:  Rodney Stuckey, Will Bynum, Brandon Knight, Peyton Siva (until he gets a few games under his belt and surpasses Knight).  To me it seems like the Pistons have four options and are actually going with the worst one since starting an unknown rookie, Siva, is preferable to starting a player you already know is bad and doesn’t work, Knight.  

      • Jul 10, 20133:11 pm
        by sebastian

        Reply

        I agree totally with Max. Best PGs currently on the roster are in the order that Max has listed: Stuckey, Will B., B. Knight, and Siva. B. Knight can be the heat at the PG that comes off the bench, very similar to Jason Terry (when he was in Dallas) or Jamaal Crawford w/o the slick-ass handle.
        And, this business about Stuckey not running a fastbreak (Ozzie-Moto), you have to have players filling the lanes to run a truly effective fast break.
        Folks need to stop sweeping Stuckey underneath the rug. If given the same 29.5 minutes per game that he has played during his career, Stuckey and B. Knight will prove all the naysayers wrong.
        A PG has to have ballers to play along with them. Ask: Magic, Zeke, Mark Jackson, Jason Kidd. Heck, you don’t have to go that far. Ask Mo’ Cheeks, who is 11th (7,392) on the All-time assist list and upon his retirement was the 4th leading assist man in League history.
        You guys may as well face it, when the Stuckey and Charlie V. for Rudy Gay trade didn’t go down, coupled with the soon-to-be signing of Gigi, the Italian League MVP (Rudy substitute), and thirdly the fact that after all of the recent PG signings and trades, Stuckey will be on the Pistons roster at the start of the season; and he will not rot on the bench, like Maggette did last season or how Charlie V. may this season.
        Stuckey is an asset, not a liability!

        • Jul 10, 20135:28 pm
          by Who Is Us

          Reply

          (personal attack removed)

          • Jul 10, 20137:36 pm
            by oats

            This comment was unproductive. Instead of making an argument you just resorted to name calling. If the idea is so crazy, try making an actual argument for why it is. Do you have something to suggest they are wrong?

        • Jul 10, 20138:09 pm
          by DetroitP

          Reply

          I’m sorry I played a D1 sport for two years. The guys who are on your roster make you BETTER.  Why you guys think LBJ left Cleveland? KG? Ray?  Not comparing his game to these guys at all, but they wanted to play with better players.  Better players win, BK has gotten so much negative talk all because he hasn’t looked that great playing next to some scrubs?  cmon man sayin will is better and siva will be?  You never played a sport, or your just a dumbass im sorry but thats the truth.

          • Jul 10, 20138:17 pm
            by oats

            Will has played better while playing with the same scrubs, so I fail to see the logic here. So has Stuckey for that matter. I really don’t see your point at all.

        • Jul 10, 20138:31 pm
          by DetroitP

          Reply

          My bad about the dumbass thing had a terrible day at work, apologies.  Who do you think has the higher ceiling? BK, Will or Siva?  Rewatch a few highlights of college, it’ll remind you this kid can straight up ball.  I understand his progress is slow, and it  very well just might not work out.  But give him a chance playing with Moose and Josh.  (Moose will be better this year through experience)  I may get cracked on for this one, but look at what the football lockout did to football players. I understand completely and totally different sport.  But more first rounders that year played awful then ever before.  The point is these kids are young, let a 21 year old kid develop one more year, and at worst….. it doesn’t work out, trade him or something.  At best we have an extremely athletic pg that can straight up score.  Stuckey, call me crazy but i think he got the raw end of the stick as well.  His head isn’t right he can play, I think he really needs a change of scenary.  So we start Rodney or Will? and just give up on a kid, would not benefit us on any level.    You think every single University wanted this guy for no reason?  Hes quick as hell, and is lengthy.  Give him a years shot

          • Jul 10, 20139:12 pm
            by oats

            Honestly, as the roster sits I start Knight. He has an outside chance of being decent, but that’s not the real reason. I’m terrified of how bad the shooting on the roster is and can’t justify inserting another non shooter for a relatively minor upgrade in terms of passing. Yes, Rodney and Will are a bit better than him, but not enough to deal with all those bricks they are laying. But I’d say that the problem is that the position wasn’t seriously addressed this off season. At the very least I think the team should have gotten someone to be serious competition for the starting job. Even if it’s just getting Beno Udrih in free agency instead of Bynum, someone that can pass a little and shoot a little would have forced Knight to earn his starting job. It seems unlikely that the team adds someone now, so Knight is almost certainly the starter this year. I just think it’s a mistake to keep handing the job to a guy who has done so little to earn it.

    • Jul 10, 20133:41 pm
      by Derek

      Reply

      @Ozzie-Moto that’s the thing about blogs, message boards, and other media sports outlets…you’re bound to find opinions.  There will be opinions you can agree with and some you cannot.  It’s a wonderful outlet for opining and stating preferences.

      From my perspective Brandon Knight is a player, while inconsistent and slow to develop, has tools to be a standout scoring point guard in the line of what we see being developed today at the position.  I’m not sure if the type of point guards being developed today are a result of the AAU culture or if its just kids mimicking what’s popular.  Different topic for a different day I suppose.

      Brandon is in a do or die year.  His third year needs to yield significant increases in decision making and consistency.  His work ethic, intelligence, physical tools, and new coach all suggest big things from him.  I like that he stood up to the criticism and has taken it on as a challenge.  That appears to be who this kid is.  He doesn’t retreat, he battles.

      I’m interested in seeing him battle his way into prominence.

      Go ahead and admit it?  Ok I’ll admit he has struggled and I’ll admit that he has shown flashes.  This is the year to put it together.   

      As for Stuckey he’s an enigma wrapped up in a quandary tied in the knot by a boggle.  His problems are between the ears.  With him it isn’t lack of intelligence, it’s a bad attitude.  He desperately needs a change of scenery.  He needs a new location somewhere that will help him reboot.  It ain’t in Detroit.
           

      • Jul 10, 20136:06 pm
        by Ozzie-Moto

        Reply

        Derek I get that but there is something in the water over there ( i grew up in Detroit) that seems to never want to hold anyone accountable for there actual  play or in JD case management. And for comments below Stuckey had 2 years and never had a good fast break option .. he never PUSHED the ball up.  Again IF Knight develops great !!!!!!!  Im not interest in another year to find out. Jens  SPOT on .. Detroit need a point guard NOW not hopefully in the feature. If they keep loosing they loose players as well 

        • Jul 10, 20139:30 pm
          by Max

          Reply

          Actually, Stuckey was frustrated that the Pistons were not a running team when he was the starting point guard.   

          I would start Stuckey and let Knight and KCP battle for the starting 2 guard spot.  With Stuckey and Bynum bringing the ball up the Pistons could be a great defensive team that values their possessions and Knight can be a catch and shoot/catch and drive player.   

  • Jul 10, 20131:34 pm
    by Keith

    Reply

    I just have to throw this out there: http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=single&type=totals&per_minute_base=36&lg_id=NBA&is_playoffs=N&year_min=2013&year_max=2013&franch_id=&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=0&age_max=99&height_min=0&height_max=99&birth_country_is=Y&birth_country=&is_active=&is_hof=&is_as=&as_comp=gt&as_val=&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_f=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&pos_is_fc=Y&pos_is_c=Y&pos_is_cf=Y&qual=&c1stat=gs&c1comp=gt&c1val=30&c2stat=mp_per_g&c2comp=gt&c2val=20&c3stat=&c3comp=gt&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&c5stat=&c5comp=gt&c6mult=1.0&c6stat=&order_by=ws_per_48&order_by_asc=Y 

    To explain what’s going on there, I sorted for anyone who started 30 games or more and played 20 mpg or more during the season. That list shows from top to bottom the worst starters in the entire league by win shares. Now, you can argue how valid win shares are, especially in tight comparisons. However, this isn’t a tight comparison. Knight was the third worst starter (and that includes generous definition of being a starter) in the entire league. We can argue that maybe he was worse because of the situation and coaching, but not one of the worst starters in the league bad. Is there any evidence that a player has gone from being abjectly horrible for two years to being competent?

  • Jul 10, 20134:16 pm
    by Jens

    Reply

    It doesn´t matter I´m in the “not believe in Knight” camp. It is simply hard to believe Joe D and Mo Cheeks put their futures in Knight´s Hands after what he´s shown so far. Knight may still have a great career, but he´ll have to prove it the very hard way now.

    I just think the times of “spoonfed” minutes are over. He will never get the Chance again to post such an inefficient PER. 

  • Jul 10, 20134:32 pm
    by Corey

    Reply

    I’ve read multiple times about Knight having plantar fasciitis last year, starting in the summer. He may show more this year than last, if he was struggling with injuries. The team knows if he was- we don’t, really. That said, I do think Stuckey is a better point guard currently- now if only he could shoot.

  • Jul 10, 20134:50 pm
    by Who Is Us

    Reply

    Cut the kid some slack, the majority of guys who have produced better in their first 80 games were not one and done players who played 2 NBA season by the age of 21.
     
    There are only 4 starting PG who were 1 and done players who are considered elite (Rose, Conley, Irving, Wall) and only 1 who has EVER been All NBA (Rose)!! Of those guys only Rose has done anything to lead his team to prosperity and the playoffs in his first two seasons. Conely is good, but benefits from the team around him amd isnt a star himself. Irving is his teams star, but turns the ball over just as much as knight and has led his team to a worse record than Knight’s Pistons the last two years (and keeps getting outplayed by Knight in head-to-head games). Wall is an assist machine, but he has yet to elevate his team in 3 seasons and can’t shoot.
     
    Pick any great PG, in the NBA other than those four and they all had at least 2 years of college or extensive expirience over seas before hitting the NBA. It is way too early to give up on this kid and write him off as a PG because of one bad full season as a PG.
    Some additional food for thought, in the last 25 years how many teams have won an NBA Championship with a PG who was at that time was considered elite? The answer: 7
    87 & 88 Lakers (Magic)
    89 & 90 Pistons (Isiah)
    05 & 07 Spurs (Parker)
    11 Mavericks (Kidd)
    Some of you will say that the ’03 Spurs had Parker, the ’04 Pistons had Billups, and the ’08 Celtics had Rondo, but at the time that they won nobody outside of San Antonio, Detroit, or Boston considered those guys to be elite. Of that group only Billups was the star who was the reason his team won the championship that year. All entered elite status after and because their team won a championship and what they’ve done since. The point is that teams like Bulls, Heat, and Lakers have won championships with guys like Mario Chalmers, Derek Fisher, John Paxon,  B.J. Armstrong, and Steve Kerr as their PGs. If all Knight ever becomes is Mario Chalmers and the Pistons contend wouldnt that be worth it? he doesnt need to become Jason Kidd to lead a contender, he just needs to have the players around him to acctually be good and to be able hit timely shots.
     
     

    • Jul 10, 20138:01 pm
      by oats

      Reply

      Brandon Jennings only played 1 season overseas, so there’s him. What about the reverse of this though? How many one and done guys or high school draftees were as bad as Knight has been as a passer so far and turned into a decent PG. I’ve got nothing. The only 2 guys that haven’t been given up on completely as potential starters at the position are Eric Bledsoe and Brandon Knight. Sebastian Telfair, Louis Williams, and Tyreke Evans also had better starts to their PG careers and are not starting caliber PGs. Essentially your argument is that Knight belongs to an extremely small group of players so we don’t have enough evidence that he can’t turn it around. The fact that none of the guys in this group ever made the kind of turn around you are projecting strongly suggests that is a failed argument though.
       
      Name a guy who failed to get 1.5 assists per turnover over his first 2 seasons and then became a good PG later. It really is that simple. No one has ever done it that I’m aware of. There also is not any evidence that these inexperienced PGs are more likely to have a sudden turn around than any other player. All of them showed something to suggest they could play the position eventually while still really young, and Knight hasn’t.

      • Jul 10, 20138:38 pm
        by Who Is Us

        Reply

        Brandon Jennings its not elite.
         
        Look, of you have your heart set on convincing people that you think knight will never be a good PG, then you will find a way to make your argument. the point is he is a 21 year old kid. cut him some slack and leave open the possibility that he can improve.
         
        Understand that as high of an opinion as everyone on this board has of themselves (that includes Dan & Patrick), Joe Dumars has forgotten more about basketball and understands talent evaluation and what works at the NBA level than any of us will know, and he obviously sees something in Knight and his ability that he is willing to trust him to run the team in the year that will determine his future with the Pistons.
         
         

        • Jul 10, 20139:03 pm
          by oats

          Reply

          That’s not actually an argument though. Joe Dumars has also proven that he makes mistakes. There is no reason to assume that this is not one of them. There is a lot of evidence to suggest it could be one though.
           
          As an aside, I know a decent amount about basketball, and there’s probably some people on here that know the game better than I do. If he’s forgotten more than I know then there is a decent chance Dumars no longer knows more than I do about basketball. That’s what happens when you forget things. Before someone says something, that was not meant as a serious statement. Dumars clearly knows more about basketball than I do, and I’d never seriously argue otherwise. That doesn’t mean that I have to assume that every moves he makes is right because he knows more than me.

        • Jul 11, 20131:00 am
          by tarsier

          Reply

          “Understand that as high of an opinion as everyone on this board has of themselves (that includes Dan & Patrick), Joe Dumars has forgotten more about basketball and understands talent evaluation and what works at the NBA level than any of us will know”

          That’s the problem. Dumars has forgotten how to build a team. I want a GM who still remembers what it takes. 

    • Jul 10, 20138:15 pm
      by oats

      Reply

      Also, how many NBA champions fielded a team with an incompetent PG? 0. I’m not arguing Knight shouldn’t be the PG because he isn’t elite. I’m arguing he shouldn’t be the PG because he’s incompetent as a starting PG.
       

      • Jul 10, 201310:13 pm
        by Who Is Us?

        Reply

        It is a ridiculous leap to say that having sub par assist-to-turnover ratio makes you an incompetent PG. I would think that the ability to guide a winning team was more important.
         
        For as much as everyone seems to hate Brandon and Loved Jose Calderon, I think he was a far more incompetent PG for the Pistons. That would be because I base competence on winning and losing.
         
        I find a PG who had a winning percentage of .150 (3-17, including 13 losses in a row) to be an incompetent leader.  Knight was at least able to manage a .381 (21-34) winning percentage before the Calderon trade. Not great, but better, by more than twice as much, than the “Pure PG” that all of you claim the Pistons need could manage.
         
        I have no problem with a PG who only average 1.5 A:T as long as they win. If the Pistons make the playoffs and Knight averages 15pts, 6asst., 4rebs, 2stls. even with a 1.5A:T, personally I’d be more than happy with it, and consider that a success.
         
        He doesn’t need to be elite, all he has to do is improve a little, and let his new and improved teammates do their things by getting them the ball where they need it that is all he needs to do. He doesn’t have to be J. Kidd for him to be the right PG for the Pistons, and for Joe D. to have made the right decision.

        • Jul 11, 201312:57 am
          by tarsier

          Reply

          So if I were signed by the Heat as their starting PG, I would be better than Knight because my team would have a better record?

          Remember, it’s not like Knight and Calderon were playing PG with the same set of players. Calderon was missing arguably the 2nd and 3rd best teammates that Knight had (and it is really depressing that Prince was arguably the 3rd best Pistons when he was on the team last year).

        • Jul 11, 20132:05 am
          by oats

          Reply

          Considering that passing stats are the primary means of differentiating PGs from other players, yeah, a terrible assist to turnover ratio goes a long ways to making him incompetent. You can put up with it if he’s a high volume and highly efficient scorer like Kyrie Irving, but Knight isn’t. Knight is an average scorer, average shooter, and terrible passer who turns the ball over a lot. That is an incompetent point guard.
           
          As for the winning percentage thing, tarsier has already made the point. Chalmers is not a better PG than Chris Paul because he wins more. Wins are a measure of the team in it’s entirety, and not of the PG. It is ridiculous to put wins and losses on any one player. Assists can be used to measure how someone plays though. You can argue the passing numbers are being nudged a bit by the teammates, but not nearly to the same extent that wins are. PGs on bad teams get assists just fine, unless of course they are bad PGs. Knight is a bad PG.

  • Jul 10, 20138:40 pm
    by DetroitP

    Reply

    doesn’t matter Mo’s gonna start him.

  • Jul 10, 20139:39 pm
    by Max

    Reply

    Mo might start him but it wouldn’t be shocking if 20 games in or even less he decides to start Stuckey or even Bynum.   This is Knight’s make or break year but that doesn’t mean he has a whole year’s leash. 

    • Jul 16, 201312:00 am
      by jeff

      Reply

      To me is sad that the Pistons have wasted so much time with guys like Stuckey, and Knight. I think It’s safe to say that knight isn’t  a point guard with how bad he turns the ball over. He can shoot decent three ball, but that’s about it. People knock bynum down, and I’m guilty of this in the past as well, but after last year with how well he played with Drummond  
      I realize that we have basically wasted many years looking for a point guard in the draft when if were smarter and just let bynum be the point guard while working on his shooting, we probably would be better off. I think its seriously said when were hoping knight could get like 5.9 assist and not look incompetent with turning over the ball so much, when bynum already has a 2 to 1 assist to turn over rate. Bynum has a PER is 4 points higher, and his Per 36 minutes assist rate is 6.9, which by my calculations is much better, then Knights 4.4 assist per 36.
      I think the simple fact is Dumars doesn’t want to admit he made a mistake about trying to turn combo guards into point guards. There is no facts showing that prior to pistons drafting knight and stuckey that they could become point guards. Now Siva, would be a good one to try to groom since he already shows point guard skills. I think the should move knight ASAP, because he is just blocking, trying to find guards that are actually point guards! on this pistons roster.

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