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Trey Burke probably didn’t work out during meeting with Pistons

Keith Langlois of Pistons.com:

Pistons release list of players who "visited" this week .. It includes Trey Burke, Michael Carter-Williams and C.J. McCollum

I’m going to guess Trey Burke did not work out for them. Pistons weren’t given interview with Burke in Chicago. This was expected.

Obviously, the Pistons would have preferred to work out Burke so they’d have more info on him, but I can see why he didn’t want to take that chance.

If he’s available at No. 8, he’s almost certainly the best player available, and from his standpoint, there’s little reason to chance a bad workout dropping his stock. Many see Burke and Michael Carter-Williams as near equals – for the record, I disagree with that assessment – but if Burke falls to the Pistons, Carter-Williams seems to be the most likely player not in the consensus top tier who will help push Burke down. So, proving himself better than Carter-Williams in the Pistons’ eyes might be irrelevant to Burke.

It’s a calculated risk on Burke’s part, but hopefully the Pistons learned more about Burke while meeting with him.

If Burke perceives his stock is falling, there’s still time to work out with the Pistons before the draft.

103 Comments

  • Jun 23, 20139:12 am
    by I HATE FRANK

    Reply

    Burke had several chances to seperate himself from Carter-Williams and Cj McCullom, but he declined to workout with / or against either PG

    • Jun 23, 20139:44 am
      by oats

      Reply

      This is likely the typical thing with players not working out for teams they are not worried about. They either think they will be gone, or they think they are the pick for that team whether they work out there or not. Usually this says something about how the player views his draft stock and nothing else. That said, I’m actually going to address your point.
       
      I think that point guard is possibly the position where one on one drills tell you the least about the player because that position is more focused on passing ability than the others. Having no one to pass to, or even the threat of a pass for that matter, completely changes the way you defend a guy. Heck, just removing the pick and roll from the equation is a huge loss to a guy like Burke. I can’t blame Burke if he feels that his skill set is better demonstrated in game like situations. On top of that, having time to play with his team mates is also pretty vital for passers. By avoiding one on one situations that likely aren’t the best setting for him, Burke is forcing teams to look at game tape to evaluate how he plays against defenses. That makes a lot of sense considering how strong his game tape is.

      • Jun 23, 201310:13 am
        by gmehl

        Reply

        Agreed on all fronts

        • Jun 23, 20133:31 pm
          by frankie d

          Reply

          very true.
          no real upside for burke to participate in that kind of workout.
          he may also have a very good hint from some team – the pistons? – that they will draft him if he is available to them.  
          he may be very happy with that possibility.
          why mess that up by working out and possibly motivating a different team to draft you or by getting injured.
          it is unfortunate from a fan’s perspective, but very understandable from his. 

      • Jun 23, 20134:12 pm
        by Vic

        Reply

        He is forcing them to think with their brains instead if their scout man crushes: what does 1 on 0 or 1 on 1 actually have to do with a real 5 on 5 basketball game?

      • Jun 24, 20138:02 am
        by I HATE FRANK

        Reply

        Thats a nice cover up story…for Burke and why he didnt paqrticipate

        BTE: you do have other players involved, Head to head doesn’t mean one on one basketball, it means whether its 3 on 3 , or 5 on 5 … those players are locked on to each other defensively…In most case during the workout they simulate real game situations, 2 on 1 fast breaks, 3 on 2 fastbreaks to see do the PG make the right decision, Pick n roll offense or how they defend the pick and roll, coming off of screens, how a player fight through screens …its not just a street pick up game… its organized and well planned by coaches to see what player would fit their system, months before the workouts even start …sometimes players get competive and go after each other, but that happens in the NBA, College, Highschool and pick up games

        Its shows how well a guy deals with pressure , it shows how his athletism has increased or decreased and it calms concerns for a GM. So its a lame excuse, for him to decline the same workout that 2 other top PG participated in, especially considering those PG’s are the ones he is competing against.

        If the head to head works were not serious, why do almost 100% of the lottery have head to head workouts? only time a player doesnt participate is then they are a lock for 1,2 or 3…or they have been promised a certain spot, and then they wont workout at all

        PG have gone head to head in workouts for years….Normally when players decline, they are out of shape, afraid that a poor perforamce can hurt their stock, or they just dont match up well.

        • Jun 24, 201311:27 am
          by oats

          Reply

          First of all, if it’s 2 or 3 guys brought in, and I’ve not heard anything to suggest anyone else was at that workout outside of MCW and McCollum, the players usually primarily do individual drills. It will also prominently feature one on one. A lot of times they will run 2 on 2 drills with a coach in that extra spot. Even if they do get in enough people to do more than that, he’s still working with guys that he doesn’t know and that don’t know him. That makes a big difference for point guards who are effective despite limited athleticism. Those players tend to play a little more of a cerebral game. They are all about misdirection and hesitation moves, things that are hard to perfect with a group of virtual strangers. It simply is a worse environment for a guy like Burke. But you seem to be mistaking this for the main point when it’s more secondary. At the time the workout was set Burke was pretty much unanimously considered the top prospect. He probably thought he would likely be gone by pick 8, but he came in for interviews to solidify his floor a bit. He likely didn’t see a real potential for gain by working out. I’d probably say that is misreading things since Detroit is rumored to be high on MCW as well, but it’s not actually a cause for concern.

          • Jun 24, 20131:24 pm
            by I HATE FRANK

            “”First of all, if it’s 2 or 3 guys brought in, and I’ve not heard anything to suggest anyone else was at that workout outside of MCW and McCollum, the players usually primarily do individual drills.”"

            1. it didnt say they brought in only 2 or 3 guys …they were the marquee talent….they also had 2nd rd there

            “”It will also prominently feature one on one. A lot of times they will run 2 on 2 drills with a coach in that extra spot. Even if they do get in enough people to do more than that, he’s still working with guys that he doesn’t know and that don’t know him.That makes a big difference for point guards who are effective despite limited athleticism. Those players tend to play a little more of a cerebral game. They are all about misdirection and hesitation moves, things that are hard to perfect with a group of virtual strangers. It simply is a worse environment for a guy like Burke. But you seem to be mistaking this for the main point when it’s more secondary”

            2. most cases it 3 on 3…with 1 or 2 assistant coaches..and the same disadvantages Burke would have are the same disadvantages McCullom and Carter-Williams would have

            “”At the time the workout was set Burke was pretty much unanimously considered the top prospect.”"

            3. Now out of the 3..he is the one projected most likely to fall out of the lottery

            “”He probably thought he would likely be gone by pick 8, but he came in for interviews to solidify his floor a bit. He likely didn’t see a real potential for gain by working out. I’d probably say that is misreading things since Detroit is rumored to be high on MCW as well, but it’s not actually a cause for concern.”"

            4. Burke is a Need in Detroit….He actually complicates things…because what “IF” let just say WHAT “IF” Knight clearly out plays Burke, and wins the starting job…and has a solid to good season…Burke because a wasted pick….

          • Jun 24, 20131:44 pm
            by oats

            1) I didn’t say you did. I said there have been exactly no reports to suggest anyone else but McCollum and MCW were in that workout. 2 player or individual workouts are extremely common too, and it very easily could have been one of those.
             
            2) Actually, the disadvantages are similar, but not the same because they are different types of players. Burke’s game is based on hesitation moves, sudden speed changes, and a knack for breaking down defenses. MCW is a tall, athletic guy that tries to pass/shoot over shorter defenders. McCollum is a big, strong guard that kind of bull rushes his way to the hoop. It’s the finesse game of Burke that is going to be more effected by the nature of the workouts.
             
            3) Irrelevant to my point. Also, not true. All 3 are generally considered lottery locks.
             
            4) If Knight outplays Burke at the point then Burke is a good 3rd guard with some trade value, but the odds of this happening are astronomically tiny. So few guys with a career similar to Knight’s so far ever become decent point guards. The odds of this are just too small to be worth worrying about. What’s more, Dumars has said many times that the advantage of a guy like Knight is that he can play either position. Knight isn’t that likely to even get a chance to outplay Burke because he’s likely not going to be playing the same position. Knight would almost certainly be groomed either as a full time SG or as a combo guard off the bench. Even if the team doesn’t draft a point guard, they will likely head into the off season with plans to add one in FA or via trades. Dumars has said repeatedly that he’d like Calderon back. All evidence suggests that Knight is not being viewed as a long term answer at the point, so he shouldn’t even factor into a decision on whether the team will take Burke.

    • Jun 23, 20134:00 pm
      by RyanK

      Reply

      Sounds like he has something to hide.  Like he’s afraid he’ll be torn up if he worked out with the other players.  Burke might be the “known” player available, but that doesn’t make him of starter quality in the league.  Something tells me the kid is a bust.

      • Jun 23, 20134:21 pm
        by jacob

        Reply

        Your comment is a bust.

        • Jun 23, 20136:27 pm
          by RyanK

          Reply

          You don’t like it, so that makes it a bust?  You have a strong argument.

          • Jun 23, 20139:34 pm
            by jacob

            If you think this guy is afraid then what is the point of arguing. I’m not saying he is the next Paul, but he didn’t look afraid against Kansas. He always wanted the ball in his hands when the game was on the line. He is big time. Will definitely be a good pro. No doubt. Reminds me a lot of how Billups was. Big moments are where they shine. I wouldn’t mind bringing Billups back this year if we draft Burke. Billups could play the 2 and Knight could come off the bench. To say Trey Burke is scared made me not even want to argue with you. Pointless.

      • Jun 23, 20137:14 pm
        by Who Is Us

        Reply

        It is always a legitimate concern for players who have a lot of exposure. I think he is right to avoid 1 on q work outs at this point especially against someone like McCollum who is bigger, faster and just as good a shooter. Can only really work as a negative for Burke. If He outplayed McCollum he did what he was expected to do, nothing more. If He gets outplayed them that hurts his stock.
        Personally I don’t want to see any of these point guards drafted by Detroit, but Burke is, to me, the lesser of three evils.

  • Jun 23, 20139:35 am
    by acr

    Reply

    Dan (or anyone), what’s your take on Caldwell-Pope?  I’m really intrigued by him, but he seems to be excluded from most discussions about the Pistons’ pick.  It seems like he would be someone who would be worth a shot at 8 – good 2 guard size and length, fairly athletic, shooter with range.  What are his weaknesses that keep him from being included in the Burke, Carter-Williams, and McCullom tier for the Pistons?

    • Jun 23, 201310:06 am
      by tarsier

      Reply

      MCW and McCollum are hopefully not in as high a tier as Burke.

    • Jun 23, 201310:42 am
      by oats

      Reply

      Pope is often listed in the same tier as MCW and McCollum on this site. I’d say the most common names to be at the top of that group are KCP, MCW, McCollum, Muhammad, and Zeller. I’m not certain what the consensus is on the order for those guys, but I guess we might find out soon. 

      • Jun 23, 20131:59 pm
        by tarsier

        Reply

        I’d throw Len in with that group, even if he is unlikely to be available at 8.

        • Jun 23, 20132:48 pm
          by oats

          Reply

          I was going with the guys people are usually calling for, and I’ve not seen Len’s name come up that often. On talent Len probably belongs grouped with those other guys, even if he oddly is being labeled as a lock for the top 6. I don’t understand why he’s moved into that consensus top 6, but that’s sort of besides the point.

      • Jun 23, 20137:17 pm
        by Who Is Us

        Reply

        I really like Pope-Caldwell and how he is the Piston’s pick at 8! Most of the major draft gurus are living him to go to the T-Wolves one pick after the Pistons.

    • Jun 23, 20134:20 pm
      by Vic

      Reply

      I think KCP could end up better than Oladipo and McLemore… He defends better than’Mclemore, shoots and scores better than Oladipo, and is younger than both. That being said, I take Burke over him because pg is a more valuable position because a real Pg gets everybody involved and controls the game. Outside of Burke and the toP 6 I definitely take kCP

  • Jun 23, 20139:46 am
    by Georgio

    Reply

    Burke’s stock is droping and his team is making a big mistake. With his combine numbers he needed to show that he can compete with his contemporaries. Instead he refuses to work out against any of the other PGs. That may be a good strategy when you’re considered the top dog but with his combine numbers and his height concerns he needed to show GMs that he could in fact defend and score over the other PGs in this draft. His failure to do so leaves them with questions that can’t be answered, which is not a good thing. I think Burke will be the big dropper on draft night and may last at least until Utah at 14. Joe will not draft an undersized PG especially if someone with Zeller’s size and athleticism is available.

    • Jun 23, 201310:40 am
      by sloppy joe

      Reply

      You have to realize Burke played in the Big 10.  Working out with players can only reveal so much.  Playing actual games against Appling, Oladipo, Kraft 1+ times a season is real game experience against elite college PGs.  The game tape will reveal plenty, and I think he is wise for holding out.  I hope he falls to us.

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  • Jun 23, 201310:25 am
    by gmehl

    Reply

    I remember reading an article that Trey Burke and Dumars are pretty tight. I am not sure how much a GM of a team is allowed to keep in contact with NCAA players but I thought his son Jordan Dumars was on Michigan’s roster before he had to withdraw due to injury. Surely Joe and Trey must of had many conversations over that time and the 2 probably exchange texts on occasion. Anyway the point here being that Dumars has probably been scouting Burke the last couple of seasons and has seen enough to know if he is still there when we pick that he’d be our guy. Fingers crossed that he is but if he’s not then it will come down to KCP, McCollum or Zeller. A big hell no to MCW and i’d take Shabazz before him.

    • Jun 23, 201310:47 am
      by sloppy joe

      Reply

      I’d have to agree with you but I would have to add Zeller to the hell no list.  Lack of strength and finishing ability has me worried about how he will translate to the NBA.  Plus he might be a worse jump shooter than drummond.  I would take Shabazz over MCW and Zeller, but I would love to see Burke in the D.

      • Jun 23, 201311:05 am
        by Tony J

        Reply

        I agree. I don’t see the hype about Zeller. He’s not a great rebounder and his 6’8 wingspan suprises and scares me. Do he have potential? Yes but I feel he has a very low ceiling as well. At best he can be a decent starter and at worse he will be a bench warmer big who provides extra depth. I like his athleticism but I just dont agree with all of the hype people give him. Not trying to spark an argument or anything. Just my personal opinion.

        • Jun 23, 201311:18 am
          by Greg

          Reply

          Come on…first of all Zeller has not a 6-8 wingspan, he stands a legit 7´ foot tall and has a wingspan of 6´11 measured at the combine in Chicago. Thats not great but better as antisipated and was seen as a plus for himcoming out of Chicago. Next you say that Zeller can´t shoot and spread the floor…just because he had to play Center at Indiana and wasn´t asked to shoot in the offensive system that doesn´t mean that he can´t shoot. It was reported that he shoot suprisingly well in workouts with a nice touch to just about the NBA 3-point line…don´t get me wrong, he´s not a stretch 4 like Bennett could be, but he could develop a 3-pointer alla Chris Bosh and sure is effective and comfortable taking the shots from the elbow at the moment. He will play Power Forward in the NBA not Center, so his physical limitations concerning strength are not taht of an issue. The NBA tends to get smaller with a lot of small ball and the stretch 4s like Anderson from the Pelicans. Therefore his athletic testing numbers concerning his quickness are hilarious. He´s just as fast as Oladipo, considered one of the fastest SHOOTING GUARDS…stay with the stats…

          • Jun 23, 201312:33 pm
            by Tom

            Like with most college players there are questions marks about him, but I don’t see how you can make the argument that Zeller has a limited ceiling. His combine numbers put his as one of the most athletic bigs in the history of the draft; this from a guy who has always been known as a skill player. He has post moves, he can pass, he runs crazy well and he’s a legit 7 feet. His ceiling is some sort of Duncan/Dirk hybrid – not predicting he will become an all-time great, but that’s his ceiling. The fact that as a 20 year old he isn’t as strong as he could be doesn’t limit what he could become. And, he was still second in the big 10 in rebounding.

            I also disagree with the idea that he couldn’t become a stretch 4. He has put up gaudy shooting numbers in workouts and he was known to be a great shooter in practice at Indiana, he even won the Midnight Madness 3 point contest (on a team with a 50%+ 3pt. shooting Oladipo, Watford who might get drafted solely to be a stretch 4, Jordan Hulls who is Indiana’s 2nd all time 3-pt shooter and some lesser known guys who can do nothing but shoot). The simple fact of the matter is that he was specifically told not to shoot long range shots in college because he was the only post player on the team. 

          • Jun 23, 20133:52 pm
            by frankie d

            detroit will be lucky once again.
            looks like they will have a choice of players that range from burke to mccollum to zeller….and probably MCW.   the only one i have any sort of hesitation about is MCW, and only because of his very suspect shooting.   
            i think any of the other probable options would be great pickups and burke would be an absolute dream choice.
            next year, teams that pick lower will kick themselves for not picking zeller or mccollum earlier.  both guys will be solid nba contributors immediately. 

  • Jun 23, 201310:48 am
    by Tyrone

    Reply

    I understand why Burke would refuse to work out with and against MCW and CJ.  

    I personally don’t agree or like that choice, In my opinion, if you truly believe that you (Burke) are going to be the best PG guard in the 2013 draft then you should not back down from away opportunity to compete against the two players who are trying to be drafted as the first PG in the 2013 draft.  

    With that being said, Burke should not work out for every team and risk injury, but the lottery teams with needs at PG, if they ask him to compete against MCW and/or CJ then get out there and show teams that your are the best!!!

    • Jun 23, 201310:41 pm
      by Filo Putz

      Reply

      Easy for you to tell Burke to compete in these workouts. But put yourself in his shoes. One bad day, maybe not performing at his best could cost him millions of dollars.

      • Jun 24, 20136:40 am
        by Tyrone

        Reply

        yes it is easy for me to say that sitting here,

        Putting my self in Burkes shoes, If i hate to lose instead of just enjoying the victory then, I would not back down because Im a competitor…  

        The money has a way to taking care of the ones with the mind set of hating to lose…

        • Jun 24, 20131:15 pm
          by Filo Putz

          Reply

          If I was Burkes agent, as I’m 100% sure his did,I wouldn’t let him play against guys rated below him.

      • Jun 24, 201311:07 am
        by Huddy

        Reply

        Far more involved than just money.  Higher pick means a team regards you higher because they invested a bigger asset in getting you, which translates into a bigger role, more minutes, more consideration as the team moves into FA…not just a million here or there.  Being picked by a lottery team at 8 means a guy could get opportunities to start or atleast big minutes right away while going up even to the 15 range can mean being buried behind established players for years, a supportive role when the player believes that can carry a big load, etc… On a more established team a rookie can only prove themselves in team practices, which hold far less weight than getting real PT in the season.  This exactly why a player like Danny Green can be sent down and cut before finally becoming a feature on a team (not just talking about finals performance, he has been good all year).  
         
        @Tyrone Being a competitor is one thing, being smart enough to know what to do to get an opportunity to have the best chance to compete at the next level is another.  It would be stupid for Burke to value winning a single individual competition like this work out over getting the best chance to compete for years in the best role possible in the NBA.

        • Jun 24, 20137:05 pm
          by Tyrone

          Reply

          Huddy & Filo, again, I fully understand why Burke would refuse to compete, but again in my opinion I do not like the choice on his (Burke) part…

          If you hate to lose and there is a lottery team with a legit need at PG requesting you to prove your self against the player in your draft class and maybe BK7 then you do not back down…You go out there and show that lottery team why you are the best…  That is if you hate to lose, instead of enjoying winning…  

          • Jun 24, 201311:57 pm
            by Filo Putz

            Tyrone your absolutely right! And if it ws up to Burke I’m sure he would have gone up against the other guys in the 1 on 1 drills. You’ve seen him play ; he a warrior!!!!! He doesn’t back down from anybody. But he embarking on a career and that’s why you have to listen to your agent in order to maximise your value….

  • Jun 23, 201310:55 am
    by Greg

    Reply

    I think the Pistons should go into Draft night with a Draft Board pretty similary to this one:

    Tier 1:

    Ben McLemore, Victor Oladipo, Otto Porter.

    Tier 2:

    Anthony Bennett, Kentavious Caldwell-Pope, Cody Zeller, Trey Burke, Shabazz Muhammed.

    Tier 3:

    Nerlens Noel, Alex Len, Micheal Carter-Williams, C.J. McCollum.

    Tier one are the clear Frontrunners who the Pistons would have considered taking had they won the Lottery. If one of them should slip all the way down to #8 it´s a no brainer.

    Tier two are all players who would find a clear role on the pistons team and would fill  a need and would be part of the rotation next season. Bennett and Zeller could both stretch the floor as our first Big of the bench. Pope and Muhammed would fill our glaring hole at the 2 and Burke could gie us our PG of the future what would mean Knight would come of the bench. No way they start both of them.

    Tier 3 are all players with obvious talent but realyy don´t fit the pistons team. Noel and Len can not spread the floor, McCollum is another combo-guard and Carter-Williams can´t shoot, what we definetely need from all 3 starters next to Monroe and Drummond. Would be shocked if the pistons took a chance on MCW with this pick, he´s just to risky for Joe D to take. Jow Dumars trusts his players on the roster and I think he will BK7 another chance to run the point, so there is no way he takes MCW when someone like KCP is sure to be on board and fits the team better.

    That all is a hole other story if the pistons somehow manage to get an additional lottery pick like #13 from Dallas or other teams trade up or down, but considering it stays as it is, I would say this should be the way to go.

    • Jun 23, 201311:41 am
      by Tyrone

      Reply

      Greg you said something very revealing that I absolutely agree with in your analysis,”Carter-Williams can´t shoot, what we definetely need from all 3 starters next to Monroe and Drummond.” and “Burke could gie us our PG of the future what would mean Knight would come of the bench. No way they start both of them.”
      KCP and Shabazz, fill a glaring need at SG, what you are not acknowledging is that C.J. McCullum can also shoot the ball and move Knight to the bench. After all as you said above Drummond and Monroe will need shooters all around them at the PG, SG, & SF…

      My question would be if Burke was drafted at 8th pick then who will start?  Burke or Knight? Which player can shoot the ball better?  

      I guess that if Burke made a choice to compete against MCW and McCullum then coaches, management, and ownership would all have a better understanding or answer for that question… 

      • Jun 23, 20132:06 pm
        by oats

        Reply

        Only one of them can pass, and you really need a point guard who can actually run an offense. This isn’t a hard decision. If the team doesn’t want to start both Burke and Knight, then Knight has to be the one to go to bench. I definitely think that the team will try to acquire a SG to at least compete with Knight for that starting job, but I’m not buying that there is no chance that Knight starts. Dumars was 6’3″, and Thomas was 6’1″. If Knight wins that job outright then he will start next to Burke, I’d just bet against that if the team makes a serious attempt to competently fill that role.

      • Jun 23, 20132:15 pm
        by Greg

        Reply

        If detroit does Draft Burke, that would mean, either they see him clearly as the best playr available and don´t like any other player at this spot or they have given up on Knight as their point guard. A backcourt of Knight and Burke as starters will not happen. If they draft Burke I think he will start from day 1. As for McCollum, he is not Curry or Lillard. He can score for sure, but I just don´t see him as a point guard, even less than Knight. As a shooting guard he´s undersized, defensively not good, so he will almost for sure be destined to be a 6th man. That´s not what Detroit wants. Portland will take him at #10 to build a 3 man backcourt with Lillard and Methews, they need scoring of the bench and therefore he fills the bill.

        • Jun 23, 20138:09 pm
          by gmehl

          Reply

          As silly as it would be if we were to draft Burke there is a small chance that we could then sign say Andre Iguodala and then have Burke as the 6th man (ala Ty Lawson). Obviously you’d prefer it the other way around (Knight 6th man) but you never know what Cheeks will do and we’d be clutching at straws assuming he’d start Burke over Knight. Anyways I say Joe goes after Iguodala with a front ended contract and also Cory Brewer. Start a team of:

          PG – Burke or Knight
          SG – Iguodala
          SF – Brewer
          PF – Monroe
          C – Drummond
          Bench – Jerebko, Singler, Middleton, English, Rookie PF.

          Amnesty Villanueva, buyout Kravtsov, trade Stuckey, draft and stash a player in Europe.

          • Jun 23, 201311:32 pm
            by tarsier

            How is it clutching at straws to assume he’d start Burke over Knight? Burke has played a lot better so far than Knight. Also, Burke looks more like a PG while Knight looks more like a combo guard. Better to bring the combo guard off the bench where he can play either spot.

          • Jun 24, 201312:25 am
            by gmehl

            @tasier I am not arguing that point. I am just saying that it might not be 100% that Burke would get the starting gig. If i was making the call i’d go with Burke too bu was just pointing out that if we did draft Burke then there’s a chance that they might want to ease Trey into the starting PG role much like the Nuggets did with Ty Lawson and what we did with Monroe. Everyone around here has seemed to just assume that Burke will get handed they keys to the PG spot much like what we did with other players.

          • Jun 24, 20133:47 am
            by oats

            I’m betting the team tries to bring in a veteran starter at the point even if a PG is the pick. I’m also assuming that guy is Calderon.  Someone who can start now, but is in the later part of his career and will understand when Burke eventually takes over. Calderon would be the likely target, but Jarrett Jack, Mo Williams, and Devin Harris sort of fit that description too. I’m betting they would all land elsewhere instead of taking on a stop gap starting position for Detroit. That means that the rookie would be by far the most likely opening day starter.

          • Jun 24, 20139:46 am
            by tarsier

            oats, that could be a possibility, but I can’t see giving a vet PG more than minimum contract if the Pistons already have Burke, Knight, and Stuckey.

            And even at that rate, unless they’re getting someone decent, like Calderon, it would be a waste of a roster spot.

            But who knows, Stuckey could be gone and Knight could get most of his minutes at SG. 

  • Jun 23, 201311:15 am
    by Tony J

    Reply

    It seems like almost everybody who talks about him has good things to say about Caldwell-Pope. I for one think he will be a safe pick. I don’t think he will be an all-star per se but I do see him fitting in as a Ray Allen type of above average starter. He has a good shooting stroke, athletic, great defensive potential and he is not a head case (I feel obligated to include that considering the number of players now-a-days with these huge egos.) KCP provides the Pistons with almost everything we lack. We get size, good rebounding for his position, shooting and defense. Definetly a safe pick for Detroit.

    As for Burke, I believe he is a boom or bust player. The biggest knock against him is his speed but lets not forget that we have Knight who is both fast and a very much improved defensive player. Best case scenario is BK7 is the 6th man and can fill in for Burke if his defense is lacking in a particular game. We also have Drummond patroling the paint so hopefully PG’s who feel that they can blow past Burke will think twice about scoring and look to simply dish it out.   

    • Jun 23, 201311:39 am
      by sloppy joe

      Reply

      You don’t think he will be an all star but you think he will be more like Ray Allen, a 10 time all star future hall of famer..

      Just messing with you, he does seem like a “safe pick” probably no Ray Allen though.

      • Jun 23, 20137:43 pm
        by Who Is Us

        Reply

        I thought that was funny too. At one point Jesus Shuttlesworth was a top 3 SG in the NBA, if not the world.

  • Jun 23, 201312:33 pm
    by joe

    Reply

    I’m not going to say that the Piston’s won’t draft Burke, McCollum or MCW, but if the SF or SG position is open, I don’t see Dumars drafting a PG to fill the those position’s. I think people are getting their hopes to high, Dumars is not giving up on Knight at the starting PG after two years. If that was the cast why hire Westbrook’s dad as the coach, SAY IT WITH ME, because Dumars think that Cheek’s can turn Knight into a Westbrook, BINGO!

    • Jun 23, 20132:27 pm
      by oats

      Reply

      First of all, Cheeks has gotten credit for developing other players like Iggy, and like Iggy they aren’t all point guards. The talk has been largely focused on Westbrook, but the talk from the organization has to do with Cheeks developing young guards and not specifically young point guards. Secondly, if the team drafts a point guard then Cheeks would still have a chance to develop a young point guard. Lastly, Chad Ford has been reporting for awhile that the team is strongly leaning towards a point guard in the draft, with plans on moving Knight to the 2. Ford has been pretty spot on with his reporting of who Dumars has been interested in on draft day, so I wouldn’t dismiss this out of hand. Considering how much Dumars talked up Calderon by saying it was nice to have a natural point guard out there, I’d venture a guess that Dumars is open to the idea of making Knight into either a full time SG or a combo guard off the bench. I suspect the plan is to get the best players possible this off season, and then figure out what position to play Knight at after that is done. Pretty much every report has said that has been the plan the whole time, and it really does make sense.

      • Jun 23, 20138:19 pm
        by gmehl

        Reply

        “or a combo guard off the bench”

        I think people forget that there would be no disgrace in assigning Knight that role. If he could average similar numbers to what he did last year but as a 6th man then he could be our version of JR Smith. Just because you don’t start doesn’t mean you won’t rack up the minutes.

        • Jun 23, 201311:39 pm
          by tarsier

          Reply

          “ If he could average similar numbers to what he did last year but as a 6th man then he could be our version of JR Smith”

           
          Ummm, no. If he averaged J.R. Smith caliber numbers off the bench, he could be Detroit’s version of J.R. Smith. Last season, Knight did 13, 3, and 4 with 0.28 STL:TO. Smith did 18, 5, and 3 with 0.75 STL:TO.

          And Smith didn’t have a dropoff efficiency-wise. His splits were 42/36/76 to Knight’s 41/37/73.

  • Jun 23, 201312:41 pm
    by icantfind

    Reply

    There are rumors Ben McLemore is dropping. If PHX doesn’t draft him we really have a chance to take him at 8. That will be a STEAL.

  • Jun 23, 201312:51 pm
    by joe

    Reply

    I think this is what Dumars Board look like:

    1st Tier:
    Mclemore, Porter and Bennett

    2nd Tier:
    Oladipo, Zeller, Pope 

    3rd Tier:
    Burke, MCW, McCollum and Shabazz 

    • Jun 23, 20131:11 pm
      by sloppy joe

      Reply

      why is Noel’s stock suddenly plummeting?  Having 3 dominant big men would be invaluable 

      • Jun 23, 20131:31 pm
        by joe

        Reply

        I just don’t think Noel’s in Dumars plan, I think if the Pistons didn’t have Drummond and Kravtsov, he would consider taking Len. The Pistons may want to add a vet center for guidance.

        • Jun 23, 201310:17 pm
          by KaBa

          Reply

          Len at any time any place over Zeller.

          • Jun 23, 201311:41 pm
            by tarsier

            I think I’d lean to Zeller over Len. but it is probably irrelevant. Len probably won’t be available. Zeller probably will but still probably won’t be the best pick.

    • Jun 23, 20132:03 pm
      by tarsier

      Reply

      How would you have any idea what Dumars’ draft board looks like? I can see saying those are your rankings based on the Pistons’ needs, but I’m assuming you don’t have any insider info.

      Also, whether he is in the plans or not, Noel should be on the board just in case he unexpectedly falls. 

      • Jun 23, 20132:31 pm
        by joe

        Reply

        It’s my opinion, so don’t get so caught up in the words, I’m just evaluating the situation off of articles I read and past moves Dumars than made.

  • Jun 23, 20132:18 pm
    by Mel

    Reply

    if we get Burke, he should start over Knight. Burke is the better more clutch shooter. I don’t understand why people can’t see him and Knight playing together. Jose and knight player together last year and did well at times. Burke defensively is better than Calderon, quicker and knows how to move with the ball just like Calderon maybe even better. Every one is worried about height these days. Isiah and Joe were small but look at what the did. Chis Paul doesn’t worry about tall point guards cause he knows how to move with the ball. Burke is lacking a few inches but he’s not a small guy. He ‘s built and he has long arms that helps him out. His one clear advantage is his movement with the ball. He knows how to speed up and slow down in traffic something that helps Chris Paul be as great as he is. Burke will be a good fit for the Pistons. I just thought about Kemba Walker, same size but posted 18 pts 6 ast 3 rbs in his second year. I believe Burke is in that same realm of player but a little more better because of his movement with the ball. Just my opinion though.  

    • Jun 23, 20139:16 pm
      by Who Is Us

      Reply

      The problem with the Burke will be good because CP3 is good argument is ridiculous!! CP3 is the best PG prospect in the last decade (and Deron Williams was drafted ahead of him). Burke is not even close. Two years ago he is the 4th best PG behind Irving, BK, and Kemba Walker. The only draft that Burke would have been the top PG prospect is probably 2006. 
      The only argument you can make for a better PG  than CP3 is Derek Rose and he would need a few more years to even have a case.

      • Jun 24, 20134:08 am
        by oats

        Reply

        I think Burke is clearly a better prospect than Walker was. The only thing Walker did better than Burke was take shots, but he wasn’t making them more effectively. Burke was a better shooter and passer, and roughly an equivalent defender. Burke is also older than Walker was, although older than Kngiht. Walker was neck and neck with Knight, so I’d say Burke should have been ahead of Knight too. I’d expect that the consensus would have been Irving, Kngiht, Burke, Walker. I’d also have thought that was really dumb.
         
        I agree that Burke wouldn’t be the top point guard in many drafts. Still, he would often be a reasonably close second place in a bunch of those drafts. He’d be well behind Wall, but way ahead of everyone else. He’d have been neck and neck with Lillard. He also would have been close on the heels of Mike Conley. I also agree that thinking Burke can do it just because Paul has done it is absurd. Post injury Paul is a legitimate comparison for Burke’s ceiling, but no one should think that is a likely scenario. I’d be hoping for a guy in the Ty Lawson to Mike Conley range, but aware that it isn’t a given that Burke gets to that point even.

        • Jun 24, 20139:57 am
          by tarsier

          Reply

          Agreed on all counts.

          Well, except for “Burke is also older than Walker was” but I’m pretty sure that was just a mistake.

          • Jun 24, 201311:28 am
            by oats

            Yes, my fault. I thought it the other way in my head, but typed it wrong. Burke is the younger player.

  • Jun 23, 20132:21 pm
    by Filo Putz

    Reply

    I see Zeller going in the top 5 with the probability Len and Noel dropping because of the uncertainty created by injury. Especially Len. when you talk about a stress fracture on the ankle  This is a similar injury to what Grant hill and Bill Walton battled in their careers. Bennetts shoulder while also being serious is not as significant because it’s his non shooting side and it doesn’t absorb the pounding a knee or ankle must withstand.

  • Jun 23, 20132:49 pm
    by Matt

    Reply

    I’d hate to rain on the parade but the best PG in the draft is not falling to 8. Burke won’t slip past the pelicans at 6 or the Kings at 7. I think it’ll be between C.J. McCollum, Cody Zeller, Shabazz Muhammad, and Kentavious Caldwell-Pope. I hope it isn’t C.J. McCollum, we need another combo guard like we need Frank back.

  • Jun 23, 20133:18 pm
    by Filo Putz

    Reply

    Can someone explain to me the logic of NO drafting a pg when they have Vasquez who at 6’5″ averaged 14p and 9 assists(3rd in league)?

    • Jun 23, 20133:57 pm
      by Matt

      Reply

      They don’t see Vasquez as a long term solution and Rivers was not very good his rookie year. They see Vasquez as more of a Ginobli type and be a sixth man. A backcourt of Gordon and Burke might be lethal if Gordon could ever play. Plus like us, if there isn’t an option at SF/SG than they’ll take the best available.

      • Jun 23, 20134:55 pm
        by frankie d

        Reply

        vasquez’s main problem is his bad lateral quickness.  
        he can’t guard any backcourt opponents, 1′s or 2′s.  
        too bad cause he is an excellent offensive player, imho, with tons of heart.  
        but he is a real detriment defensively, and that will never change.  any team that plays him will simply have to accept his bad one on one defense as a given.
        that is one reason i question whether they will choose burke.  because of his size, he will present different defensive problems, but problems still.
        MCW, with his physical profile, may fit better, if they go for a point guard. 

      • Jun 23, 20134:56 pm
        by Filo Putz

        Reply

        Your saying NO thinks they’ll find someone better to run the point then 6’5″Vasquez 26, who is third in the league in assists? I don’t get it. Milwaukee tried the undersized starting backcourt route. How’d that workout?

        • Jun 23, 20135:00 pm
          by Matt

          Reply

          Really good offensive player that can’t defend. It is easy to look at stats and say someone is good but the reality is most things on D don’t have stats. He is best suited for sixth man due to his liabilities on that end.

          • Jun 23, 20135:27 pm
            by Filo Putz

            They have much greater needs. Gordon at the 2 hasn’t played in 2 years. Robin Lopez is an average center at best. And their small forward is terrible!

          • Jun 23, 201310:10 pm
            by frankie d

            i’ve been reading the local NO paper for insight on the team’s plans.
            looks like they are primarily concerned about the SF position.  they consistently got beat up by opponents at the SF position.  the main problem is that there are not that many choices at SF in this draft, at the top.  
            porter and then bennett, if a team thinks they can use him at the 3, rather than exclusively at the 4.
            imho, it looks like they’d love to get porter, which is probably a dream right now, with washington poised to grab him.
            the options then become to strengthen a weak spot at center with a guy like len – assuming he is available – or maybe look at a guy like burke, or possibly MCW, as the best players available who could come in and help the team.  
            as far as detroit is concerned, i think NO choice will go a long way towards determining what happens with their choice.
            one last tidbit out of sactown: they brought shabazz back for a second visit.  he had not been able to work out at a previous visit earlier, and they apparently have enough interest so that they brought him back for a second visit, specifically so that they could work him out.
            if NO takes a big guy like len – or maybe something crazy like adams – and sactown takes shabazz, detroit will end up with a bunch of good choices at 8.  it will be very interesting to see… 

          • Jun 23, 201311:58 pm
            by Matt

            I feel like if one of top 7 fall to us it’ll be center. All 7 teams ahead of us nead small forwards and shooting guards. I think when all off them are gone Burke is the best point and wont go past sacramento.

          • Jun 24, 201312:40 am
            by gmehl

            @Matt Not all teams draft for need over talent.

    • Jun 24, 201310:03 am
      by tarsier

      Reply

      Because Vasquez is the best example in the league of a player whose stats are better than his actual play.

      • Jun 24, 201312:32 pm
        by Filo Putz

        Reply

        You must not have seen him play, he’s very good.

  • Jun 23, 20133:48 pm
    by Jack56

    Reply

    This is my tiered list:

    Tier 1:
    Ben McLemore, Victor Oladipo, Otto Porter.

    Tier 1 is full of players that both fit the Best Player Available and meet a position of need. From the most recent rumors McLemore has the best chance to fall to 8, but I don’t see that happening.

    Any of these guys would make Detroit a better team. 

    My preferred order would be McLemore, Oladipo, & then Porter.  
       
    Tier 2:
    Alex Len, Anthony Bennett, Nerlens Noel

    These players are rated as three of the most talented (with potential) in the draft, but they don’t fit an area of immediate need. The only way this would change is if a trade was in the works or the Pistons thought Bennett could be a stretch 4. They have big question marks though because of injuries. Without being able to work them out any team is taking a gamble on this tier. 

    My preferred order would be Len, Bennet, Noel. Noel is the most likely to be like Drummond and we won’t be trading him. Len may be similar to Monroe at some point (notice I said may and not will), but if the Pistons decide to trade Moose, Len would be a solid pick. If Bennet can’t be a stretch four then he’d drop out of the top 10 for me.

    Tier 3   

       Cody Zeller, Trey Burke, Kentavious Caldwell-Pope

    This tier are guys who may be available at 8 and have the talent, work ethic, and/or potential to be top three when this draft is said and done. Burke & KCP fit a need and Zeller could play stretch 4 because anyone who actually saw him shoot knows he CAN shoot.  

    Honestly, these are the three players I’d most want Pistons to draft. 

    My preferred order would be Burke, Zeller, and then KCP. I don’t see Burke as the next CP3. He looks like John Stockton with longer arms. He is a gritty leader who can be a pick and roll maestro and can knock down the three. Zeller is an athletic freak at 7 foot and he has a nice shot. Indiana wouldn’t allow him to shoot. If they did he may be top three in this draft. KCP, has the best shot out of McLemore or Olapido to be the SG of this draft.
      
    Tier 4
      Micheal Carter-Williams, C.J. McCollum. Shabazz Muhammed.

    These are guys I’d prefer to avoid altogether. McCollum might turn out okay, but he is a question mark because of his injury. And I’m leery of yet ANOTHER combo guard. MCW I think is HIGHLY overrated. People talk about other point guards being unable to guard his height but that goes both ways, because he has trouble guarding smaller guys. Burke owned him when they played. In two steps Burke was past him. Muhammed….well he seems like a volume scorer to me. I know the system he was in at UCLA didn’t showcase his skills, but I think there is too much risk. He could be a steel in the draft, but I think there will be better options at 8. 

    • Jun 23, 20135:02 pm
      by Vic

      Reply

      I pretty much agree with this, but I put KCP over Zeller because you could get a stretch 4 at pick 37 or 56. In round 1 you need to build your starting 5 that will see the floor 70% of the game. If we got pick 13 I’d get Tony Mitchell or Kelly Olynyk as backup 4.

      • Jun 24, 201310:11 am
        by tarsier

        Reply

        “I put KCP over Zeller because you could get a stretch 4 at pick 37 or 56″

        And you can’t get a 3 and D role player at 37 or 56? In either case, the same type of player, but a mush lesser caliber of prospect will be available later in the draft.

  • Jun 23, 20136:37 pm
    by Reaction

    Reply

    So apparently McLemore has been really sucking in his draft workouts and is dropping hard. Phoenix apparently doesn’t like him now either. NO has Eric Gordon. Sacramento could end up being his landing spot now?

  • Jun 23, 20138:32 pm
    by gmehl

    Reply

    • Jun 23, 20138:37 pm
      by Filo Putz

      Reply

      I saw an interview with Muhammad where he compared himself to James Harden. Then I watched some of his tape to see if there is any comparison My conclusion is he’s delusional. 

      • Jun 23, 20139:09 pm
        by gmehl

        Reply

        Sacramento Kings = delusional
        Shabazz = delusional
        = match made in heaven… make it happen Sactown :-)

        • Jun 24, 20138:35 am
          by I HATE FRANK

          Reply

          “”I saw an interview with Muhammad where he compared himself to James Harden. Then I watched some of his tape to see if there is any comparison My conclusion is he’s delusional. ”"

          “”Sacramento Kings = delusional
          Shabazz = delusional
          = match made in heaven… make it happen Sactown :-)”"

          Several people have compared him to Harden and Manu…I find it interesting that basketball people(Gms,coaches, scouts) who have been watch the tape on Shabazz in college, and watching the workouts are falling in love with Shabazz all over again… They see the explosiveness, they see the development in his game from highschool to college…they see the way  he has got his body in excellent conditioning, mentally he has impressed them during workouts…They are see his upside..no one denys his work-ethic or his ability to transition to the NBA

          But then theres everyone else (fans,critics, clueless people still talking about his age)…

          that get stuck on perception, …. and not performance and overrall value…. damn shame…but for many ignorance is bliss..

          He compared himself to Harden because Harden is a dominate lefty, who had to work on going right, he also said while comparing himself to Harden he has alot of work to do especially when it comes to shooting off the bounce, and creating offense. Harden and Shabazz also have the same body type 6’5 – 6’6 220, long wingspans coming out college they questioned Hardens defense and his lateral quickness to defend NBA 2 Guards … Harden struggled shooting off the dribble coming into the NBA…

          So the comparison isnt that he think he is Harden as is, he believes he can be a harden type over time.

          BTW: Otto Porter compared himself to Kevin Durant…. now that Delusional

          • Jun 24, 201310:22 am
            by tarsier

            You are correct. Otto Porter comparing himself to Durant is similarly delusional as Muhammad comparing himself to Harden.

          • Jun 24, 201311:18 am
            by I HATE FRANK

            Clueless people im talking about ^

          • Jun 24, 201312:36 pm
            by Filo Putz

            A Better comparison for Muhammad is Michael Beasley.

      • Jun 23, 201310:16 pm
        by frankie d

        Reply

        that truly is delusional.  
        what makes harden so good is his PG skills.  he handles the ball like a PG and he uses his handle to do things that less skilled ballhandling 2′s just cannot do.
        muhammad is one of those less skilled ballhandling wings.  his handle is mediocre, at best, and he is almost entirely a lefthanded player.
        when harden came out, the problem with him is that he did so many things, it was tough to figure out exactly what he excelled at.  with muhammad, it is just the opposite.  he only does a couple of things, and you  hope that he can expand his skillset to allow him to be more effective. 

        • Jun 24, 201312:41 am
          by Filo Putz

          Reply

          I’m right with ya frankie d. Harden is also one of the great long range shooters in the league. Both spotting and up creating off the bounce. Watch some film of Muhammad. His shot is ugly. 

          • Jun 24, 20132:17 am
            by gmehl

            Its actually what you call fugly… or fcking ugly if you want to be technical.

        • Jun 24, 20134:40 am
          by oats

          Reply

          Plus Harden is one of the better dribble penetration guys in the league while Muhammad has pretty bad ball handling skills. Yeah, it’s not a particularly sound comparison.
           
          Here’s the defense of it. Harden was an all offense and no defense player this past season, basically the basketball equivalent of a DH. Muhammad is sort of that same idea. Harden also takes way more shots at the rim or 3 point line than anywhere else, and that’s what Muhammad wants to do. Muhammad is actually a good spot up shooter, making more than 40% of his shots in spot up situations. There are a ton of flaws with the comparison, with the single most glaring being that Muhammad can’t pass, but there are some similarities that he might be trying to get at. There really isn’t a direct comparison for him to an NBA player though, so no matter who he chooses he will be making a pretty bad comparison. I’d probably go with Jason Richardson if I was being kind, but there are serious problems with that comparison too.

  • Jun 23, 20139:50 pm
    by domnick

    Reply

    i think if we compare carter-williams against burke then burke has real edge over him…

    i’d like to land either mccollum or burke… but if they’re both gone.. then grab Zeller, then target pg on last two second round picks

    • Jun 23, 201311:56 pm
      by tarsier

      Reply

      McCollum’s ceiling looks like Jamal Crawford or Jason Terry. He’ll probably be a nice player to have, but one that you can get for a couple million any year in FA. That’s not worth using a top ten pick on.

      Better to grab a guy who may be significantly better or may be totally useless. If eh turns out to be good, you got a steal. If he turns out to be useless, you let him go and sign a McCollum type as a FA.

      • Jun 24, 20134:16 am
        by domnick

        Reply

        well aside from Burke… who else is significantly better?

        i think Mccollum is already better.. he is the real steal on the draft

        • Jun 24, 201310:25 am
          by tarsier

          Reply

          It’s not who is significantly better. It’s who can be significantly better. I’d rather have Zeller or Muhammad.

  • Jun 23, 201310:09 pm
    by Travis

    Reply

    “NBA general managers are polled to determine which players are likely to be drafted in the lottery.”
    Muhammad’s name was not included by the GM’s in the lottery as a top ten lottery pick…
    http://m.espn.go.com/nba/story?storyId=9413629&src=desktop
     

    • Jun 24, 20139:03 am
      by I HATE FRANK

      Reply

      Neither is CaldWell Pope …doesnt mean he isnt going in the lottery

      They normally invite 14 total …

      • Jun 24, 201310:32 am
        by tarsier

        Reply

        Pope and Muhammad should end up being added. They round out the top 12 prospects. After that, I’d draw a total blank of who is number 13.

      • Jun 24, 201310:53 am
        by Travis

        Reply

        @I HATE FRANK – Your man-crush on Muhammad is clouding your judgement. I hope the Kings select Muhammad, but only because it leaves one more option for the Pistons. I wish the Kings the best with Muhammad. The fact still remains that Muhammad is not thought very highly by NBA GM’s. I agree he will be a top 12 pick, but if he isn’t selected by the Kings, he will not be a top 10 pick.

        I’ll eat crow if he is selected in the top ten. 

        • Jun 24, 201311:36 am
          by I HATE FRANK

          Reply

          “”@I HATE FRANK – Your man-crush on Muhammad is clouding your judgement.”"

          1. Clouding my judgement? this is my favorite time of the year… I look at the hand full of guys that make since in Detroit. And I put them under my microscope, based on the information that im privledged to. Then I make a logical choice… Shabazz is just a logical choicee Period. Man-Crush is probably PJ3 tho..

          “”I hope the Kings select Muhammad, but only because it leaves one more option for the Pistons. I wish the Kings the best with Muhammad.”"

          2. Thats fine, im not gonna be heartbroken, but then I hope we draft Zeller… I have 5-6 top rated players …. McLemore, shabazz, Cody Zeller, Carter-williams, and Bennet…(wildcald Giannis because of potenital)… any of those guys are go for me at 8…

          “” The fact still remains that Muhammad is not thought very highly by NBA GM’s. I agree he will be a top 12 pick, but if he isn’t selected by the Kings, he will not be a top 10 pick.”"

          3. Actually I shared about 10 sources where GM’s and coaches all spoke Highly of Shabazz, Shabazz has only worked out for only 3 of top 10 teams in the lottery …Portalnd, Suns and Kings… He was reported to be impressive in each workout… so plenty of GMs are high on him. He hasnt worked out for the Pistons yet. So of course if you ask the gm’s in the top 10 he wont be included

          Part 2., The top 10 invites names have just been released, last year when he first release on invites came out Terance Ross was included until a day or so later…
          “”I’ll eat crow if he is selected in the top ten. ”"

          4. Unless he is horrible today in Detroit, I cant see him sliding past the 8th pick, unless a guy like Ben Mcelmore, Bennet or Oladipo is avaible,then there are articles where they say Flip Saunders reeally, really like Muhammad in Minnesota

          But i’ll remember it

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