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Joe Dumars’ contract expires after next season

Vince Ellis of the Detroit Free Press:

Dumars’ contract expires after next season.

The Pistons have an impatient owner who said the they ‘better’ make the playoff this season and refused to give Joe Dumars an immediate vote of confidence when they didn’t.

Considering initial reports after Gores bought the team said Dumars had three years to prove himself, and then Dumars traded Ben Gordon just to get cap space a year early, the upcoming season really seems like a make-or-break year for Dumars.

Of course, Dumars’ contract could always be extended or he could always be fired in the middle of it, but if Gores is looking to dump Dumars after this season, not renewing his contract could be an easy way to do it. There has been speculation Gores has trepidation about alienating fans by firing an all-time great in franchise history, and if that’s the case, he’s wrong to assume many fans would be outraged by Dumars being fired. But if Gores could say Dumars contract wasn’t renewed, that could be easier to spin that a firing and avoid a perceived problem.

83 Comments

  • Jun 17, 20131:06 pm
    by DasMark

    Reply

    He should have fired Dumars before he gave up a first round pick to get some cap space for the sole purpose of saving his own job! 

     

    • Jun 17, 20131:12 pm
      by CNA5

      Reply

      Or he should have empowered Dumars earlier.  This halfway garbage is not the way to run a franchise.  Had he just said “Dumars is my guy” and empowered him from the beginning, there wouldn’t have been any rushed judgements.
       
      To be completely honest (as a fan), I would have been upset had he fired Dumars.  Even though I would have been angry, I would have given him a chance to find his guy.  Maybe he would have found the next RC Buford.

  • Jun 17, 20131:08 pm
    by CNA5

    Reply

    If Gores is really worried about fans being outraged, then he needs to do everyone a favor and fire Dumars.  It’s not a smart business decision to keep him if you’re not going to empower him to do his job.  I’m sure Gores could lean on the NBA offices to get him a list of qualified candidates for the GM position if he’s not comfortable with Dumars.
     
    Nobody will care about Dumars getting fired if the Pistons end up champions again.  That’s just the nature of sports.  Winning cures everything.  And, if you don’t think your guy can win, then find someone who can.  If you do think your guy can build a winner, then shut the hell up and just write the checks.  It’s not a difficult concept to understand.
     

  • Jun 17, 20131:42 pm
    by RyanK

    Reply

    I still don’t see anything that points to Dumars being fired.  Only Gores and those he’s discussed this with would have any clue about him losing his job.  Dumars indicated his employment was never part of the conversation with Gores.  Passive aggressive…maybe.  But none of us know that.

    I saw the Gores interview…I watched all of it.  At no point did he say Joe D was skating on thin ice.  He did give Frank the kiss of death in his interview, but said nothing that could be construed about Dumars’ future.  Gores said it’s his job to move the franchise forward…he said what an owner needs to say after a bad season.  

    I believe Dumars has positioned the team to make a big move in the right direction this off-season.  He could screw it up…so could any other GM.  Joe’s made a lot of mistakes, but he had a track record of correcting them…until CV/BG which he said is because Karen Davidson wouldn’t let him.

    Dumars’ role might change, but I don’t think he’ll be fired.  Gores would more likely add a team around him to “help” him make better decisions.  Dumars might resign as a result.  But canning Dumars or letting him walk away…a risky PR move that better workout if he wants to fill those seats up at the Palace anytime soon.

  • Jun 17, 20132:47 pm
    by MIKEYDE248

    Reply

    I don’t think he needs to worry about upsetting the fans, he only gets about 500 people to show up at each game, and they are all there to see Vanilla Ice.

  • Jun 17, 20133:22 pm
    by sebastian

    Reply

    Joe should be given credit for moving Tay for Calderon.
    It depends on what Joe turns Calderon into: A top FA that makes US better; a trade offering a team cap relief and returning a player with significant value/ability; or the least appealing option resigning Calderon to any amount of years/money.
    But, if the Tay to Memphis trade helps to acquire a top FA that fits and an additional player of value, then Joe should be given props for the pre-Trade Deadline move that was executed back in February.

  • Jun 17, 20133:26 pm
    by sebastian

    Reply

    And, come to think of it moving Ben G. for Magette’s expiring contract, may prove to be a good move, depending on who is acquired with Magette’s expiring.
    Not making the playoffs, next season should not be a goal of the Pistons. As it is time for B. Knight, Moose, and Dre Drummond to experience making the Playoffs, as a Piston, because if they don’t make it to the Playoff, soon, as Pistons, then when the time comes for them to escape the contracts they will do so in a heartbeat, seeking much greener pastures.

    • Jun 17, 20134:21 pm
      by Keith

      Reply

      Maggette has already expired, any value from him is now gone. What we received was significant cap space (12 million). So really, we sold a top 8 protected pick for 12 million dollars. On the surface, that’s not a bad deal, especially if we can push the pick into the 15-20 range. At that point it would be a huge win, as 12 million in cap space is more valuable than a 15-20 pick, historically.

      The problem is that next year’s draft is unique. It is top heavy AND deep, and we do not currently have a good team. If we lose a top 10 pick in next years draft just for 12 million now, we will be hosed.

      There are certainly ways to turn this team around, but some seem to have already passed. We’ve locked into a very mediocre coach, which likely gives us no benefit over last year. We have a ton of cap space, but an undesirable location and team. If we turned our cap space into Chris Paul, we would win the hell out of that trade. But, if it turns into 10 million dollars of  OJ Mayo, Monta Ellis, or Tyreke Evans, we would be shooting ourselves in both feet. 

      Most likely, there will be a middle ground where we overpay for a good (but not true superstar) player like Andre Iguodala or Josh Smith, or we don’t land anyone this year (because better teams have just as much money) and try again in 2014. The former might help us make a run at the playoffs in the weak east, which at least makes the trade even, but the latter would still kill us. It would mean getting that cap space a year early had no meaning, and we gave away a top pick for nothing. This is always why I am afraid of what will happen in FA. Joe MUST us our cap space, or the trade will be an unmitigated disaster. This means he will force a signing (more money, more years, less talent) no matter what, even if everyone knows it is a bad deal from the start.

      • Jun 17, 20134:36 pm
        by tarsier

        Reply

        It’s way too son to talk about the quality of next year’ draft. Around this time, the next year’s draft is almost always referred to as being really good, while the upcoming one is seen as really weak. During the season, the previous draft is almost always seen as producing surprisingly many good players. But you have to wait at least a few years after, and preferably several years, to really assess the quality of a draft.

        • Jun 17, 20135:20 pm
          by Keith

          Reply

          That may be true, but using historical data to judge pick value still has merit. And losing a 15-20 pick for 12 million dollars is a financial win, while losing a top 10 pick for 12 million dollars is more often a loss.

        • Jun 18, 201312:02 am
          by jacob

          Reply

          Just look at Shabazz. Everyone at the start of the year when we went 0-8 was like SHABAZZ #1. haha

  • Jun 17, 20134:29 pm
    by Max

    Reply

    I for one would be outraged if Dumars gets fired.    Most GMS have accomplished nearly nothing and most will never accomplish anything.   The list of active GMs that have put together a title is incredibly short and the list that put together a sustained run of being a contender while winning a title is even shorter–prob less than five active in the whole league.  If Dumars does get fired, the chances are better than not that his replacement will be totally incompetent.   It’s not like Jerry West is going to step in.   

    It is not as well understood as it should be that being a the general manager of Detroit is an incredibly difficult job.   I have been a die hard since the mid-eighties and the Pistons have never landed a big fish free agent.   Bison Dele, Ben Gordon and a not proven Chauncey Billups are the highlights.   Players don’t want to go to Detroit.   The Pistons have to build through the pain and hardships of the draft and minor tweaks.  This can take time.   If Dumars does get fired and the Pistons do have future success in the next few years, it will probably be almost entirely owing to Dumars making the great draft picks of Monroe and Drummond.  

    • Jun 17, 20134:43 pm
      by tarsier

      Reply

      Well then Gores should hire someone who can convince players to want to go to Detroit.

      Dumars accomplishments early on were great. Recently not so much. I don’t factor either of these facts in very heavily. I’m all about getting someone who does the right things. The results will follow.

      Dumars doesn’t show any vision or plan. He is neither willing to mortgage the present for the future, nor the future for the present. Or, if he is willing, he displays no awareness of which to do.

      Worst of all, in spite of having nothing to lose, he rolls the dice less frequently than almost anyone. The NBA rewards risk, plus it is just more fun for a fan base. 

      I’m not one who advocates making a move just for the sake of doing so. And Dumars supporters point out that who knows what offers Dumars gets. If he isn’t getting any good ones, he shouldn’t be taking any. That may be true, but there are other GMs out there who manage to make good moves. If Dumars can’t make those happen, fire him and get someone who can. 

      • Jun 18, 201311:34 am
        by Huddy

        Reply

        I think its unfair to over simplify just “getting someone who can convince players to want to come to Detroit”.  Who?  Today’s successful GMs are in nice markets or already have strong teams.  Its his job, but just because that is the goal doesn’t mean it is achievable all the time.  Its is more of a balance than absolute.  I don’t think there is anyone who could convince Chris Paul, for example, to come to Detroit…does that mean a good candidate doesn’t exist?  The vision part is more important.  When Joe has had success it was putting the right pieces together, which is what we haven’t seen lately.
         
        The draft argument is tough because I agree that he made moves I would make as well, but they were the best.  He can only use the picks he has for the best choices and just because the ceiling is set doesn’t have to be a negative.
         
        I am doubtful that there are even a handful of good options to consider coming in to replace Joe as GM since the skill set is very particular and only a few people have credentials to prove they have it (most of whom keep their jobs).  This season will be telling because if Joe doesn’t make a splash a new direction will be necessary.

        • Jun 18, 20133:26 pm
          by tarsier

          Reply

          I don’t hold Dumars draft record against him. It is a positive. It’s just not a huge positive when his successes were really obvious decisions.

          And I don’t expect Dumars to bring in CP3. But I think it is reasonable to expect better than BG and CV. And if nobody good can be convinced to come to Detroit, he really shouldn’t be trading draft picks for cap space.

          I wouldn’t expect Dumars to be replaced by a proven quantity, but someone can prove in an interview that they have a real plan for a team and a specific method by which to accomplish it. 

    • Jun 17, 20134:49 pm
      by tarsier

      Reply

      “ If Dumars does get fired and the Pistons do have future success in the next few years, it will probably be almost entirely owing to Dumars making the great draft picks of Monroe and Drummond.  ”

      Dumars deserves a nominal amount of credit for not blowing those picks. But let’s be honest. In his position, who would you have picked at those spots in the draft? You could poll Pistons fans, beforehand, and at least 90% would have done the same thing. I certainly would have. How much credit do you want to give to a GM who does what every random commenter on a fan site would have done?

      If his best moves were things that I could have done just as well, I might as well have his job. I’d happily do it for a tenth of what he makes. Better yet, get someone who can do better than myself (and Dumars since we already established that I would have mirrored his best moves).

      • Jun 17, 20134:52 pm
        by Max

        Reply

        But who can anyone realistically expect to do better?   Again, the great majority of GMS never get a team to the conference in their entire careers.   If you just list Dumars’ accomplishments, there are probably less than five active GMs in the world who can make any argument whatsoever that they have performed better than Dumars.  

        • Jun 17, 20135:22 pm
          by Otis

          Reply

          There is exactly one (1) active GM who took an elite team and blasted it to pieces with literally nothing to show for it because he didn’t convert A SINGLE PLAYER into something that the team could build on, and who actually dumped some of the team’s better young players for nothing whatsoever. There is also one (1) active GM who’s been in such a staunch state of denial that he allowed his team to endure five consecutive WASTED, completely HOPELESS seasons without EVER being a seller at the deadline. Not once. Also just one (1) GM who “jump-started” a rebuilding phase before his team (who had the second best record in the league the previous season) really started to decline, yet five useless years later the ONLY true assets he has are ones acquired through the draft by being AWFUL, and the team is still winning fewer than 30 games. Also, these GMs are all the same person. Can you guess who it is?
           
          I’d go with literally anyone else right about now. Joe’s not even good at making excuses anymore.

          • Jun 17, 20135:56 pm
            by Tony J

            I for one am torn between firing Dumars. He has had his success and this team is slowly but surely building back up. 

            On a lighter note, at least Gores is giving Dumars a chance to right the ship instead of jumping for someone like say…. David Khan. haha 

          • Jun 17, 20138:53 pm
            by Max

            There is exactly (1) one GM in the entire world who has proven he can put together the pieces to win an NBA championship without a blue chip player and that man is Joe Dumars.   When you consider that the Pistons will probably never, for the foreseeable future, land a blue chipper in free agency or even through trade, it becomes very obvious that a GM who can accomplish what  Joe Dumars and Joe Dumars alone has already accomplished is absolutely required.   For the all naysayers, name a viable replacement that’s not like throwing darts at a wall with one hand while crossing your fingers with the other.  

          • Jun 17, 201310:28 pm
            by tarsier

            I’d rather have a GM who can land a “blue chipper”.

            I’d rather throw darts at random than have a GM who has demonstrated no vision or competence in over half a decade. 

        • Jun 17, 20136:53 pm
          by tarsier

          Reply

          Anyone who has some vision and a long-term plan could be expected to do better.

      • Jun 17, 201311:22 pm
        by Who Is Us?

        Reply

        You say that you could have drafted those players, but some of the geniuses that you would like to replace Dumars with passed on them. 6 Teams passed on Monroe and 8 teams passed on Drummond.
        Dumars is good enough not to have been the 7th or 9th.

    • Jun 17, 20137:46 pm
      by rick77

      Reply

      Whiny ass Piston fans act like Detroit didn’t win a title 9 years ago. Stop your bitching and sit back and either watch or don’t. Not like they are holding a gun to your head. People kill me with “he did this” and “he did that” as if they had better knowledge at the time. The one that really cracks me up is if you did a poll 90% of the people would make the same picks. Hmmm well why didn’t the other Gm’s make the picks when they had the chance Hindsight is a motherfucker and that is why I choose more often than not to comment. Why act like you had better knowledge when you are nothing but a fan with unrealistic expectations.. Fire Dumar’s and the franchise will suffer for a long time. How can you fire a great and expect real stars to come play for that team? Think about that and marinate on it for a minute. Trust me their are other teams that will swoop him up in a heartbeat. Be careful what you wish for because it could get ugly real quick. You could be Cav fan and how would you feel about that? 

      • Jun 17, 20138:56 pm
        by Max

        Reply

        Thank you Rick!  Dumars would immediately be the most viable GM available for every opening in the league if he gets fired.  

      • Jun 17, 20139:27 pm
        by Who Is Us?

        Reply

        Since 1984, only 6, SIX teams have won an NBA Title.
        Let me say that again for effect, IN 30 YEARS ONLY SIX DIFFERENT FRANCHISES HAVE WON THE NBA TITLE!!!!!!!!!!
        The Pistons have done it 3 times!! Joe D built from scratch the team that won 9 years ago, don’t you think that the fans from the Sonics/Thunder, Kings, Clippers, Trailblazers, Hornets, Bobcats, Magic, Knicks, Sixers, Nets, Hawks, Grizzlies, Bucks, T-wolves, Cavs, Raptors, Warriors, Jazz, Pacers, Wizards, Nuggets, and Suns wish they had a GM who had done that within the last decade??
        I’ll bet the Rockets and Bulls, who haven’t won a championship in 19 and 16 years respectively, would love to have had a GM who built a champion within the last 9!!
        The fact of the matter is that Pistons fans are spoiled. So are the fans of the Spurs, Celtics, Lakers, Bulls and Heat. The Rockets jumped up to win tow at the end of The Dream’s career and the Mavs are the outlier.
        Between Detroit, L.A., S.A., Boston, and Chicago you are talking about a combined 24 titles in 30 years the rest of the NBA has a combined 6, with Miami and Houston owning 4 of those!! Or how would you like to be one of those 13 franchises with no championships…Ever!!
        Appreciate what you’ve got, before you start foolishly wishing it was gone.

        • Jun 17, 201310:32 pm
          by tarsier

          Reply

          I appreciate the championship that was won in 2004. But how long is Dumars supposed to be allowed to rest on his laurels?

          Usher him out with respect and gratitude, and then move on to somebody who has a clue about how to build a team in today’s NBA.

          • Jun 17, 201311:17 pm
            by Who Is Us?

            Its not about resting on his laurels, its about the fact that he has put together a championship team when very few others have been able to manage it and you can’t replace him with someone who has proven they can!
            The list of others who’ve managed it:
            Mitch Kupchek/Jerry West LAL
            R.C. Buford/Greg Poppovich SAS
            Mark Cuban DAL
            Jerry Krause CHC
            Carroll Dawson HOU
            Pat Riley MIA
            Red Auerbach/Danny Ainge BOS
            Auerbach, West, and Dawson are retired. Krause retired and went back to baseball, the rest are still working for the teams they built championship contenders with.
            You have no possible candidates that have any proven track record of building championship teams. Dumars is the best available option. If you can’t see that, you are simply blinded by current sentimentality and not accepting actual facts.

          • Jun 18, 201312:33 am
            by tarsier

            Absolutely anyone can. it’s just a matter of how often they successfully will. Heck, a David Kahn/Isiah Thomas hybrid could make a championship team if given enough time.

            So yes, when he has an accomplished background (moreso than whoever might replace him) but has been an awful GM for years, that is the textbook definition of resting on his laurels.

          • Jun 18, 20138:50 am
            by G

            The question is how much time did Dumars buy with that 2004 Championship? 5 years of fucking up? Ten? Since they won it all, how many good moves has Dumars made? I could probably count them on one hand. 

            Appreciate what I’ve got? You mean appreciate what I HAD. The team that won 9 years ago is completely gone, the coach LONG gone, and the GM is not the same guy he was. What am I supposed to appreciate about a team that continually underachieves and misses the playoffs while at the same time stays out of the top 5 picks? Is the fact that Dumars built a champ 9 years ago supposed to make me ignore how he’s run it into the ground? 

    • Jun 18, 20131:00 am
      by Ozzie-Moto

      Reply

      Max that is ridiculous.  those to pick fell to us and would have been picked by 95% of the coaches and 90 percent of the fans…..  brilliant draft choices ?   talented Clipper PG Bledsoe might get traded for Aaron Afllalo …  and J Dumars gave him away … Gordon CV   there smart shopping … JD nice guy. lost it as a GM 5 years ago 

  • Jun 17, 20135:06 pm
    by Otis

    Reply

    “…he’s wrong to assume many fans would be outraged by Dumars being fired.”
     
    No he isn’t. There is a significant portion of the fanbase who would be outraged. Maybe what you’re hinting at is that: 1) These people are sentimental idiots, and/or 2) There is an even larger portion of the fanbase who would be outraged if his contract were extended.

  • Jun 17, 20135:06 pm
    by Keith

    Reply

    My best case scenario while also being realistic is thus:

    Pistons trade Brandon Knight to Indiana for the injured Danny Granger. Granger has lost a LOT of value missing the year, and Knight replaces both of Indiana’s poor backup guards on a team that prizes defense and needs outside shooting. Indiana will be extending Paul George this summer, likely to the max, and Indiana will need to cut significant salary to stay under the tax. The trade eats 11 million of our projected 23 million cap space. 

    Pistons sign Andre Iguodola for 40 years, 40 million dollars. Probably more than he is really worth, but beggars can’t really afford to be choosers here. As another strong defender alongside Granger, our wings are suddenly strengths instead of huge weaknesses. This eats another 12 million of our remaining 14 million cap. This is due to the idea of paying Iggy a front-loaded contract (12, 12, 10, 6) that gives him more money right away (bonus to signing him) and helps us stay under the luxury tax when Monroe and Drummond eventually get paid big bucks.

    Pistons draft Trey Burke with the 8th pick. This, plus our second rounders, eats up the remaining cap space we have, but puts us within striking distance of the cap for other deals in the future.

    These three moves are all a bit of a reach, but not totally unreasonable. Indiana will eventually shed Granger’s contract, and moving him this year actually gets something back in return (he is a free agent next year). Iggy wants to play for a contender, but money talks, and there really aren’t any contenders with cap space. Burke probably gets picked in the 4-7 range, but every year someone falls, and a lot of reports have said Burke stands a good chance of falling if not picked in the top 4. 

    Burke-Iggy-Granger-Monroe-Drummond should be a playoff team in the East. Stuckey can play his more ideal role as backup PG and SG. Iggy provides a strong passer to alleviate pressure from Burke initially, while Burke and Granger provide quality floor spacing. Iggy could hopefully return to better form on his outside shot (he hit just under 40% over a year ago). We would be a team built to run, which Cheeks has history changing, but not completely dead in the half-court. Our defense on the wings could do a lot to help Burke along, and hopefully Drummond improves enough to anchor the paint where Monroe cannot.
     

    • Jun 17, 20135:31 pm
      by Keith

      Reply

      Yeah, that was supposed to read 4 years for Iggy, not 40 years.

    • Jun 17, 20135:31 pm
      by Erik

      Reply

      So we get Iguodola for 40 years for 40 million, why would you considered that overpaying?

      • Jun 18, 201312:12 am
        by jacob

        Reply

        I love it except 40 years seems a little long? I would go 30 years 35 mil.

        • Jun 18, 201312:34 am
          by tarsier

          Reply

          There are a lot of years of coaching built into that contract.

    • Jun 18, 20131:07 am
      by Ozzie-Moto

      Reply

      Read a great breakdown on detroitbadboys.com why Iggy a would be a bust for us I think it is spot on   Detroit needs shooters (range please any of you guys been watching the finals or Golden State or .. ) and play makers… …

      • Jun 18, 201312:53 pm
        by Matt

        Reply

        Iggy would give us a bulimic offence. The opposing team could put 5 centers in the paint and beat us. I think a SF from Denver would be our best option. Either Wilson Chandler or Danilo Gallinari would be good because they both stretch the floor. Granger might also work but from what I here he won’t fully recover.
        The spurs are proving the value of having players who stretch the floor. They can run 3 of the best shooters with Parker ad Duncon, both with jumpers.
        Having 2 big centers could work but Indiana and Memphis proved you need to stretch the floor or they will play 5 on 2 in the paint. Shaq and Duncon couldn’t score like that. We would never score more than 85 points.

  • Jun 17, 20136:04 pm
    by Tony J

    Reply

    Plain and simple, firing Dumars could be a positive or negative. I am a bit more against getting rid of him but if we did something like Toronto (trade for a superstar then pry a good GM from a good team) then I wouldn’t mind firing Dumars. If gores were to fire Dumars and hire a retread type of GM like David Khan or a rookie GM with no good prior training then I would totally be against firing Joe.

    So basically, fire Joe if you can get somebody that has shown that they can do better or a rookie who has a lot of credentials and training (perhaps somebody who worked under Popovich’s front office or Pat Rileys) and keep Joe if you are just going to hire a retread or someone who hasn’t proved much. 

    • Jun 18, 20138:56 am
      by G

      Reply

      What superstar did Toronto trade for? If you mean Gay, I hope you’re joking. Gay hasn’t even made an all star team.

      • Jun 18, 20132:01 pm
        by Tony J

        Reply

        Haha. I’ll rephrase that. Someone who can put up 20 ppg any given night. You’re right, hes not a superstar. Close but no cigar.

  • Jun 17, 20138:50 pm
    by Who Is Us?

    Reply

    The question, as it is with any position is who do you replace him with? Is there really anyone who is an upgrade?
    If the Pistons were to fire Dumars, you do all realize that he would be a GM/PBO/VPBO with another team before the start of the next season right?  Despite what overly passionate, too close fans might think about him, Dumars is incredibly well respected in the NBA and would have no problem getting a new job. If he were fired today, I have little doubt that he might be hired by Denver within a week. Think Sacramento wouldn’t have loved to hire Joe D, rather than Denver’s Assistant GM?
    Food for thought.

    • Jun 17, 20138:58 pm
      by Max

      Reply

      Love the sanity Who is Us? 

      • Jun 17, 20139:13 pm
        by Samuel Small

        Reply

        Hey Who is Us, I Sid that in a previous post. Name me a president who lead his team to six NBA Conference Finals in a row, two back to back visits to the Finals and One Championship? You bet your hind parts dud mars is fired AT&T 2:00pm, he is hired by 2:30pm. Second point, Gores picked Frank…how did that work out for us? Finally let’s talk about the deep draft next year by reminding true Piston fans about previous draft picks, from Randolph Childress, to Mateen Cleeves, to Scot Pollard to Rodney White to DJ White. If I can trade a young, but unknown player for space to get me into the playoffs, I’m doing it. If we pulled off another 6 conferences in a row, two trips to the finals and one ship and it cost me a 2014 first round, I’m doing it.

        • Jun 17, 201310:40 pm
          by tarsier

          Reply

          Who exactly do you expect to be acquired with the cap space created by the BG trade who couldn’t be acquired without it? Unless Dumars gets multiple of Smoove/Iggy/Millsap/Jefferson at good prices or one of Howard and Paul, it will be really hard to say that pick was worth giving up.

          And remember, trading the pick only actually creates an additional $8.5M of cap room. Because BG could have been amnestied anyway. It’s just that then CV could not have been.

          • Jun 18, 201312:20 am
            by jacob

            This is a hard trade to argue about right now. No matter how you look at it. First of all the draft pick won’t be going until at least next year. We haven’t signed any free agents yet. When we know those two things then we can start to argue about it. Even then we will have to wait and see how our FA or a player acquired in a trade fits with DET. Also, we will have to wait at least a year or two to see how good the person drafted with our pick works out with CHA. Honestly we could sign an bum and CHA could draft a bum. Then this trade doesn’t even mean anything. Lets say we make the playoffs the next 4-5 years. CHA doesn’t. Then we can probably look back and say it worked out for the better. Also we can both make the playoffs then you can say it worked out well for both.

          • Jun 18, 201312:41 am
            by tarsier

            Not at all hard to argue about now. In a couple years, we may know how it resulted. But that does not determine whether it was the right move to make or not.

            Whether it was a a smart trade depends on what the Pistons can expect to get with an additional $8.5M of cap space this offseason vs what the expected value of the lost pick is.

            You always want to reward the right behaviors, not the right results. That’s how you optimize future results. Rewarding right results will get you people who got lucky once but aren’t actually any good at what they do.

          • Jun 18, 201311:57 am
            by jacob

            My guess is that Gores was too cheap to buy out Gordon. Trading him and first rounder is a lot cheaper than paying his contract while he plays for another team.

          • Jun 18, 20132:04 pm
            by tarsier

            then it is the GM’s job to convince him that it is a much better move to simply amnesty him.

          • Jun 19, 201310:01 am
            by tarsier

            all these things I say are the GM’s job to do: bring in top notch FAs, steer the owner into smart basketball moves, bring in top notch coaches, convince other GMs to make trades that benefit the Pistons.

            I don’t expect anyone to accomplish all of them. But if Dumars can’t do any, I will hold that against him.

    • Jun 18, 201312:43 am
      by Tony J

      Reply

      Exactly! The only way I would fire Dumars is if we can nab an already succesful GM . I wouldn’t go as high as a championship winning GM though. I would be fine if we hired somebody who had experience in building a team and has shown that and is willing to come to Detroit but if we only end up with someone who I deeply despise (and I mentioned him twice above) David Khan, then we might as well keep Joe and his pedigree.

      • Jun 18, 20138:59 am
        by G

        Reply

        This is EXACTLY the same kind of reasoning that got Maurice Cheeks hired. Why not go after a good assistant GM, a really smart scout, or a former coach? Why does it have to be an already successful GM? Most of the GOOD GM’s in the league weren’t GM’s before they took the job they have now.

        • Jun 18, 201311:48 am
          by Huddy

          Reply

          Who’s making that hire? Gores?  A lot of good his basketball input did on the Frank hire.  I think the team needs to take a chance on someone like you describe, but only if Joe doesn’t show his worth this year.  He has flexibility and excuses are out the window.  It is true that many good GMs didn’t have previous experience…but so did many failed ones.  A new GM (especially an unproven one) will be a risk that I think is worth holding off on at least until we can see if Joe has something in the works with the space he has created.

        • Jun 18, 20132:04 pm
          by Tony J

          Reply

          Yeah I explained that above as well G. I would also be fine if we can hire someone who has some credentials and worked under someone like RC Buford, Gregg Popovich or Pat Riley. Maurice Cheeks hasn’t really been all that succesful though. I meant I want a GM that has been there, done that like Joe D. but just better.

  • Jun 17, 20139:15 pm
    by Samuel Small

    Reply

    Sorry for the auto Peking typos

  • Jun 18, 20137:19 am
    by Derek AKA Redeemed

    Reply

    I’m glad for better or for worse Dumars had the opportunity to choose the coach he wanted.  Hopefully that choice will be followed by some key acquisitons that will push this team in the right direction.

    Playoffs or bust!  That’s the mantra coming out of Gores; however, there are probably about 2 to 3 slots up for grabs next season.  And the team has some serious improving to do over the summer to leap frog its fellow cellar dwellers and make its way into the top eight position.

    With all the variables surrounding this season, I’m hoping for a competitive team that battles from beginning to end.  The sort of team that does not get blown out…or at least doesn’t go up big only to crumble down the stretch.  In the last two years this team has been blown out of the game in the first quarter or given the game away by the time it reached the third quarter.

    I’m hoping for competitors.  Last year we had one guy who REALLY competed and faced every obstacle with commendable toughness.  That dude ended up being the butt of a ton of jokes, but he also showed himself to be the toughest guy on a team of tenderfooted chumps.  Brandon Knight played through plant foot, hyper extended knee, and other ailments.  He tangled with Ron Ar-Peace.  He made the right play against DeAndre Jordan and paid for it.  I want to see that same willingness and fire from the other guys.

    I’m a die hard Pistons fan.  I have cheered for this franchise since 1986 and I probably always will.  The Curry, Kuester, and Frank regimes have been extremely difficult for me to stomach. 

    Curry’s season was hard to watch with the reports of him playing AI against Rip lying to both players in closed door meetings. 

    Kuester’s years were sucky (not stuckey…but close) with players disrespecting the coach (Rip punking Q and the players boycotting practice). 

    Frank’s 2 seasons were hard as we found interesting ways to get blown the heck out.

    I am so very hopeful that whatever voodoo Cheeks do, I mean did, with Westbrook works on Knight.  I am hopeful that Drummond comes back with the drive to be dominant and Monroe comes back with more strength and range not to mention a greater committment on D.

  • Jun 18, 20138:24 am
    by D

    Reply

    Please JOE D! Don’t not draft C.J. McCollum! This draft pick will not help you get a new deal!

  • Jun 18, 201311:48 am
    by Matt

    Reply

    *Sigh I have confidence that Joe D will turn things around. He did so well (*eye roll) 9 years ago.
    I honestly believe that Iggy would be a mistake. Especially with rumors of a deal with Dallace that would give us Shaun Marrion. That would make Brandon Knight our best scorer. Granger would be a risk to but if Arnie Kander says yes than I’d take him. I would rather Mayo, but that is if we release Stucky. We should only have one head case on the roster.
    starters
    Knight
    Mayo
    Granger
    Monroe
    Drummond

    This is also working under the assumption that we’ve never started a rookie before we won’t start now. Knight is the exception, Singler doesn’t count there wasn’t anyone else. Knight too.

    • Jun 18, 201312:19 pm
      by Ozzie-Moto

      Reply

      Matt where you point guard ….. don’t tell me knight.  Really ?  but i totally agree on Iggy HORRIBLE fit for pistons 

      • Jun 18, 201312:36 pm
        by Matt

        Reply

        I agree about Knight being an awful PG but you bring in Mo Cheeks to work with your PG so I think that means another year of Knight. Plus under a former PG he might do well, not Westbrook well. I think we’ll probably draft a PG and split the minutes between them, by mid season if Knight still sucks then the rookie, anyone the 60 potential picks we’re considering, would take over. With 2 PGs under 23 with some kind of potential working with Cheeks I think we should see what is there. I don’t see us winning a championship next year and by the following year the Heat won’t be vary good opening the door for a real run.

        • Jun 18, 201312:39 pm
          by Matt

          Reply

          Sorry for the typo’s I’m typing on a phone.

        • Jun 18, 20131:51 pm
          by G

          Reply

          Westbrook already showed some promise as a rookie PG and was a better player then than Knight is now. It’s not like Cheeks formed him out of clay. Knight is not PG material, don’t expect Cheeks to show up & turn him into a 7 apg type guy. 

          • Jun 18, 20132:26 pm
            by Matt

            Not Westbrook that is impossible. I was thinking George Hill. A physical defender averaging 16 points and 5 assists. I think thats realistic. I would hope for 3 or less turnovers per game. I wouldn’t expect more than that but he has shown he can score and he can shoot 3′s plus he is long and quick and 21 when the season starts. All star no surviceable George Hill type probably.
            I forsee us splitting minutes between Knight and MCW or Burke.

          • Jun 18, 20132:56 pm
            by G

            A guy averaging 16 ppg, 5 apg and 3 tov is NOT starting PG material. If the Pistons get Burke, he’s not going to be giving up too many PG minutes to Knight.

          • Jun 20, 201311:22 am
            by Matt

            He is if we take Shabazz. We give Knight some kind of freedom and he can score. He is long and quick and now coached by Cheeks so his defense should improve. He also didn’t get to play the point with Drummond in the lineup. I’m not saying Knight is going to be franchise caliber but what I am saying is signing Cheeks for Knight and then dumping Knight makes no sense.
            The way you get out of a hole this deep is to have a plan a see it through. Dumars has proven he doesn’t that kind of attention span. If Cheeks believes he make an NBA point guard out of Knight than Knight’s the guy. If not New York is over the luxury tax. Iman Shumpert and Raymond Felton might be available.

  • Jun 18, 20132:58 pm
    by Max

    Reply

    Joe Dumars said a long time ago that the 04 group’s run would be over when the bigs declined.   It has taken him a long time perhaps but now it could well be argued that he has got the bigs he needs to get back to the top.   Drummond and Monroe may not be Big Ben and Rasheed yet but they are extremely young, much younger than either of the Wallaces ever were when they played for the Pistons and they have loads of potential as a duo.        

    Dumars did not just get lucky when he built that group.   Only San Antonio in the past decade or so of basketball demonstrated as much chemistry as the team Dumars put together and it was a team built to last.   It all really started with Big Ben though.  Once Dumars knew he had an anchor in place he made several great moves in a row and the team was very good before they ever had Billups, Hamilton or Rasheed.   Now, Dumars should be able to fill in the pieces again.  

    If Drummond and Monroe fulfill their potential, figuring out the rest shouldn’t be so difficult anymore.   Memphis and Indiana just bullied their way to the conference finals and the Grizz can’t shoot from the outside.  The Pacers also had George who can shoot but Stephenson can’t and the team isn’t great from the perimeter in general.  The Spurs are the Spurs but it doesn’t go unnoticed by me that they got to the finals for the first time in 6 years when they started a real big man next to Duncan in Splitzer. The demise of the importance of bigs in the NBA has been greatly exaggerated.  The Heat are the anomaly of all time.  Small ball has never worked.   Last year, when the Heat won, they started Joel Anthony.  

    Drummond is a beast!

    *Just so you all don’t just think I’m drinking the Kool Aid……..Cheeks?……..WTF!?!   

    • Jun 18, 20133:46 pm
      by G

      Reply

      The point is Dumars has made a TON of bad moves since building the championship, and in virtually all aspects of his job. He’s hired 2 1/2 bad coaches (Frank is the 1/2, since he was Gores’ preference), given out terrible contracts (Maxiell, Rip, CV and Gordon), merely bad contracts (Stuckey, Jerebko, Tay), gotten the wrong guys in FA (Gordon, CV), done some bad trades (Billups/Iverson, BG+draft pick/Maggette), and had a spotty draft record at best.

      The worst of it is, many (if not most) of those moves were predictably bad. I mean this in the sense that we’d hear a rumor about the move, say “oh shit, I hope that’s not true”, our sphincters would collectively tighten, it would turn out to be true, and then we’d start trying to make the best of it. This Cheeks hiring has followed that trajectory so far, but hopefully he’ll pan out better than Frank did (I’m solidly in the “trying to make the best of it” stage).

      • Jun 18, 20134:09 pm
        by Max

        Reply

        Without nit picking, I disagree with at least half of every one of your points.  With you on Cheeks, CV, RIP and BG.   Personally, I don’t think it really matters though.   The Pistons were never going to be good again until some of their draft picks started growing up.   I’m hoping it happens sooner than later but teams make very different moves when they are retooling then when they are contending.  CV, RIP and BG were panic moves when everything was already falling apart and they didn’t work to hold off the inevitable.  Well, that inevitable cycle of getting bad before getting good hasn’t turned in the right direction yet but none of those moves are currently holding the Pistons back.  

        • Jun 18, 20134:20 pm
          by tarsier

          Reply

          Panic moves are unacceptable. They should have taken the Cleveland route and sent off veterans or brought in bad contracts to get additional picks/assets.

          • Jun 18, 20134:27 pm
            by Max

            Please.  They should have gone the Cleveland rout and lucked out with 2 #1 picks in 3 years.  Not working out very well for Charlotte or any of the other teams that are always at the bottom.    The Pistons got their bigs without tanking or deciding before any season that they had no intention of competing.   You can say Dumars was lucky but they didn’t need better draft picks in the last few years and this year could very well turn out the same way.   

          • Jun 18, 20135:16 pm
            by G

            Maybe not 2 #1 picks, but they should’ve gotten a top 3 pick at some point.

          • Jun 18, 201311:51 pm
            by Matt

            It depends on what kind of defender he becomes. With 2 centers in the paint with no jumpers 3 point shooters become important. I’m not saying Knight is the PG of the future but what I do see is a 21 year old with potential we just signed a coach for. I foresee him doing well. He cant do worse than last year. Plus we have a team of players who average 12-16 per game. Either way on draft night we will most likely draft a PG so Knight will see he has to get better or lose his spot. Under that pressure some flurish others fail.
            As for Burke that is up to Sac. I would rather Burke but not for his talent. Its a really dumb reason to be honest. MCW is a 6’6 PG. The odds of us making him a 6’6 combo guard or a SF is high. Either way we don’t play rookies regardless of who we draft.

      • Jun 19, 20131:36 am
        by rick77

        Reply

        Why do u conveniently leave out the death of the owner as well as the handcuffs he had put on him by Karen Davidson? You act like that shit didn’t happen or exist when you make your argument. It cannot go without stating that had Davidson been around we might not be having this discussion, but apparently on Pistons powered hindsight is what we all go by when discussing current Piston issues. Smdh. I aint trying to be a dick but the way you speak it you would think you had some sort of insider knowledge on how this all works, but yet posting on Pistons Powered.

        • Jun 19, 201310:09 am
          by tarsier

          Reply

          I leave that out because none of us have any idea how that affected things. Yes, Dumars basically stopped making moves during that time, but given how bad his moves were before and after, that may have been a good thing. And given how infrequent they were, it might not have made any difference at all.

          And the one move we know he could have made that was so logical it seemed impossible that he turned down was Butler+pick for Prince. You’re not convincing me that Karen Davidson would have vetoed that.

          I don’t want a GM with excuses, I want one who doesn’t need them. 

  • Jun 18, 20134:23 pm
    by Max

    Reply

    BTW, since building the championship, Dumars made many a good move to keep the team in contention like Webber and McDyess.   

    • Jun 18, 20135:13 pm
      by G

      Reply

      McDyess was a good pickup, Webber… meh. For every good move he made, there are at least 2 bad ones that cancel them out. Overpaying Maxiell and Rip, drafting Daye, dumping Afflalo, hiring Curry…

      • Jun 19, 20131:39 am
        by rick77

        Reply

        Afflalo aint shit man. Get over it! What All Star game has he played in. He was good in Denver cause Karl doesn’t run sets. His team is made up of athletes w/o high basketball iq. Running a scheme with that team would have been detrimental, period. As far as overpaying who would you have bought in at the time when these players were free agents. Like I said hindsight is a mother@$#%^!!!

        • Jun 19, 20137:00 am
          by oats

          Reply

          You can keep guys that aren’t All Stars you know. Afflalo is a quality starter, and the team has a serious lack of those right now. It was an unequivocally dumb move to give him up for nothing.
           

        • Jun 19, 20138:34 am
          by G

          Reply

          If Afflalo had been on the Pistons last year he would’ve led the team in scoring. He had a bad year last year but it was better than Stuckey’s or Knight’s year, and he’s a better defender than either of them too. Knock him all you want, he would’ve been Detroit’s best or 2nd best guard last year, depending on where you put Calderon.

          Dumars gave Afflalo up for NOTHING. I didn’t think he’d be as good as he’s become, but I definitely saw promise when he was here and was disappointed when Dumars shipped him out.

          • Jun 19, 20133:33 pm
            by Matt

            I agree 100%. Getting rid of Afflalo for nothing was stupid and is one more reason why I think Joe D should be fired. Afflalo is exactly what we need in the draft but we dumped him for a bad of skittles an klondike bar. You think we can make up for it now and trade Stuckey for Afflalo? Then draft another *sigh PG and trade for a SF from Denver. Either Gallo or Chandler doesn’t really matter to me. I wonder about the availability of DeMar DeRozan from Toronto. Their over the luxery tax and might want to dump some salary though I doubt he’d be the one to go. Raymond Felton and Iman Shumpert
            might be interesting too.

      • Jun 19, 201310:11 am
        by tarsier

        Reply

        I was actually a big fan of the Webber pick up. And I’ve never claimed Dumars has made no good moves since the championship. But he did stop making good moves a long time ago.

        • Jun 19, 20138:37 pm
          by Max

          Reply

          Drummond?   Monroe?   

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