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Joe Dumars and reclamation projects

Consensus opinion seems to be that if Joe Dumars didn’t get his latest coaching hire right, it will be his last as Pistons President of Basketball Operations. I don’t think anyone but the most rose-colored-glasses-wearing homers are excited about the move. I’m included among the pessimistic. But I’m also intrigued by the hire. If we’ve seen any consistent pattern from the incredibly erratic Dumars — he’s one more bad season from having the same number of poor seasons as good seasons during his tenure as team president — it’s that he loves to gamble on retreads, unwanteds, you name its. Maurice Cheeks certainly fits that description, and in today’s Detroit Free Press column, I wrote about my admiration for the fact that for better or worse, Dumars is rolling with a guy who fits his trend:

While his moves prior to 2004 were good, sound gambles, his moves since have just simply been a collection of mystifying misidentifications of talent, both among players and coaches. Cheeks could prove everyone wrong, but his selection as the new coach mirrors Dumars’ recent moves far more than his moves earlier in his career.

It seems unthinkable considering the reputation he had league-wide in the mid 2000s, but Dumars has a long enough track record now that he’s approaching a point in his career where he’s had nearly as many bad teams (six) as good ones (seven). There were certainly circumstances in that stretch that were Dumars’ fault and others that weren’t, but it’s pretty clear that Dumars’ future as team president is tied to one more curious acquisition significantly outperforming expectations. Whether Cheeks leads to the demise of Dumars in Detroit or his resurgence, he’s a fitting choice for Dumars to either sink or swim with.

75 Comments

  • Jun 14, 201312:09 pm
    by Vic

    Reply

    Th dynasty was lost when LB left. The first chance at dynasty left when they drafted Darko over Bosh, wade, and Carmelo. 

    I don’t think the genius coach route is going to do it for us this time. The only way to construct another dynasty around Drumroe is going to be with the complementary players.

    Joe D needs:

    1. A true pg: Burke, Calderon, MCW, Nate Wolters

    Since the “elite coach” route is a dead-end, a true PG that can score, limit turnovers and feed Drumroe easy buckets is a must, not an option

    2. 3 & D scorers on the wing: porter, maclamore, oladipo,kentavious,  James Ennis, Carrick Felix, Iguodala 

    every one of these guys will give you three and D some more three some more D… Porter and iguodala are the only ones that give you a more complete star level game at SF.

    3.  A Lebron Slowdowner: Kenyon Martin, tony Mitchell 

    Nobody can stop LeBron, KD, or Carmelo. But Kawai Leonard just slowdowned LeBron for three games in a row. Pistons could have drafted leonard Easily in 2011. They cant make the same mistake again. By trading with Dallas Pistons could pick up 2 Lebron slow downers at once. Plus depth at PF.

    Any mix of the players listed above can save Joes career and put the Pistons back on track.  So many options, draft picks and cap space it’s like a kid in a candy store.

    • Jun 14, 201312:32 pm
      by I HATE FRANK

      Reply

      “”2. 3 & D scorers on the wing: porter, maclamore, oladipo,kentavious,  James Ennis, Carrick Felix, Iguodala 
      every one of these guys will give you three and D some more three some more D… Porter and iguodala are the only ones that give you a more complete star level game at SF.”"

      anyone that doesnt consider Shabazz, i can no longer take seriously…. Oladipo is a flawed player offensively, can he get better yes he can …but so could have Harold Miner and Tony Allen…Porter is average as avergae comes he is being hyped as a safe pick..the guy is also Delusional compared himself to Kevin Durant recently, that was almost as bad a people here comparing him to rudy gay…Pope is not a good man defender, and he is a high volume 3 point shooter….

      but i get your overall point and agree

      • Jun 14, 201312:51 pm
        by Big Rick

        Reply

        I just don’t get the love affair with Shabazz, not just you but why are a lot of fans big on him? Very
        1- dimensional, undersized tweener withought a defined position. We don’t need anymore players like that on this roster.

        • Jun 14, 20131:02 pm
          by I HATE FRANK

          Reply

          “just don’t get the love affair with Shabazz, not just you but why are a lot of fans big on him? Very”"

          1. If everyone would be honest, and really good back and watch his games seriously watch them, in this draft he is one of maybe 3 players that can come in right now and make a huge impact on a team Right away. He has right now star potential and ability, and he is one of the few players in that draft that has a killer-instict, or determination to be great.

          “1- dimensional”

          1. Scoring is a HUGE Need in the NBA and on this team, but he also rebounds, in recent works he has shown the ability to defend either the SG or SF position. Passing can be worked on, once again, Durant averaged 1.3 asy in college…somethings are about development

          “undersized tweener withought a defined position.”"

          2. he isnt a 6’6 218 PF… he is a 6’6 218 SG that played SF at UCLA(weighing 230+) so that Kyle Anderson could run the PG, and Adams could play SG…. But with his 6’11 (and change wing span) he can play SF as well, he is not a tweener

          “We don’t need anymore players like that on this roster.”"

          We dont have a single player on our roster like him at all… I ask this question often..what games didn you see him play?

          • Jun 15, 20135:44 am
            by oats

            @ I HATE FRANK. How can you call for people to watch the games and think that Anderson was the point guard? Have you watched UCLA play? Larry Drew was their starting point guard and averaged 7 assists a game. He also played 35 minutes a game, so neglecting to mention him as one of the guys that helped push Muhammad to the 3 is kind of strange. Anderson was clearly the team’s secondary play maker, with Drew as the primary guy tasked with running the offense. Anderson was the team’s 4 and offensive hub, a little like Greg Monroe but with a lot more ball handling duties. I guess Anderson dribbled the ball up court a lot more than you’d expect from a power forward, but he often would do a hand off to Drew so Drew could run the half court sets. This is a little like misidentifying Tayshaun Prince as a point guard. Not recognizing that simple fact makes me wonder how many games you actually watched, despite your insistence that everyone else needs to watch the games.
             
            One other thing, Muhammad clearly was a college small forward. College players tend to be a little smaller, and even if Muhammad was lighter he would have been fine at small forward. I’m also not buying the 230 plus thing since he was listed at 225. There was a story in December about him being up to 230 when he played his first game, but he was supposedly down to about 220 by the middle of December. He only played 6 games by the time there were articles about Muhammad losing that weight. So yeah, the lost weight thing really is not as big of a deal as you are making it out to be.

          • Jun 15, 20136:33 pm
            by I HATE FRANK

            It was clearly a typo about the PG and SG…. but I will reply to the rest later… But quickly he was not down to 220 in december, and you can physically see the difference now vs his last game in the NCAA tournament

          • Jun 15, 201310:45 pm
            by oats

            Source? I’ve sourced my claim that he was 220 in December. It’s from an LA Times article in December. If you are going to say it isn’t true, you better have an actual reason for that.
            Otherwise I’m going to have to assume that you are wrong.

          • Jun 16, 20139:29 am
            by I HATE FRANK

            “”@ I HATE FRANK. How can you call for people to watch the games and think that Anderson was the point guard? Have you watched UCLA play? Larry Drew was their starting point guard and averaged 7 assists a game. He also played 35 minutes a game, so neglecting to mention him as one of the guys that helped push Muhammad to the 3 is kind of strange. Anderson was clearly the team’s secondary play maker, with Drew as the primary guy tasked with running the offense. Anderson was the team’s 4 and offensive hub, a little like Greg Monroe but with a lot more ball handling duties. I guess Anderson dribbled the ball up court a lot more than you’d expect from a power forward, but he often would do a hand off to Drew so Drew could run the half court sets. This is a little like misidentifying Tayshaun Prince as a point guard. Not recognizing that simple fact makes me wonder how many games you actually watched, despite your insistence that everyone else needs to watch the games.”"
            1. I already explained the typo but either way, Shabazz was designated as the finisher in a half-court off. Several scouts, executives, and coaches since the combined hae been impressed with his overall skill and basketball IQ.
             
            “”One other thing, Muhammad clearly was a college small forward. College players tend to be a little smaller, and even if Muhammad was lighter he would have been fine at small forward. I’m also not buying the 230 plus thing since he was listed at 225. There was a story in December about him being up to 230 when he played his first game, but he was supposedly down to about 220 by the middle of December. He only played 6 games by the time there were articles about Muhammad losing that weight. So yeah, the lost weight thing really is not as big of a deal as you are making it out to be.”"
             
            2. Several articles since the combine has talked about how great he looks, they talk about his body shape. If you look at him from the workout he did at the combine, to the workouts he did last week with the Kings you can see the difference. In the Article, he started the season way over his playing weight. Getting into game shape, and being physically conditioned to play at an individuals highest level is two different things. 
            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ISAOSMA2kP8&NR=1&feature=endscreen – During the season
            http://www.ncaa.com/game/basketball-men/d1/2013/03/22/minnesota-ucla – Last game vs Minnesota
            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ryGDORBXC4 -combine
            http://www.nba.com/kings/video/2013/06/10/Workout61013noaudiomov-2504930 – Recent kings workout
            You can see the difference…

          • Jun 17, 201312:29 am
            by oats

            1) I didn’t restate the position thing. You are quoting my original response to you. You then mentioned the typo after that, and I did not bring it up in my subsequent response. I didn’t need it explained again. You accidentally wrote Anderson instead of Drew at PG. Fine. I also don’t get how your response was related to what you quoted. My quote there had nothing to do with Shabazz, but with Anderson and Drew. No need to go over this again, I’m fine with the admission of a mistake.
             
            2) Your original claim was that he was playing at 230+. I responded with an article that claimed he lost all that weight before the 7th game. You insisted that I was wrong, and I asked you to back up that claim. You still haven’t done that. I watched the clips, and I would guess he is about 5 pounds heavier in that Minnesota clip than the workout. That would put him at 220 or so, which perfectly coincides with the article in question. I’ll say this, nothing in that Kings clip made him look significantly more athletic than he did in the Minnesota clip. He looked pretty close to the same. I’ve seen a bunch of articles that swear he looks more athletic, but the clip didn’t actually show that. I’m willing to buy that he has made some strides athletically, although I doubt they are significant as most of those articles are implying.
             
            I may be wrong on my assumption that his improvements are over stated, but even if I am, that doesn’t actually change my point. His improvements since the season ended likely had very little to do with weight loss because he lost the weight during the season. You are right that there is a difference between being in shape and being at his peak. I just want it understood that his improvements are not based on losing weight, but rather on improving the quality of the weight he is carrying. If you just claimed he is more athletic I wouldn’t have said anything about that, but you are attributing it to something that seems to be inaccurate and I wanted to make that clear.

      • Jun 14, 20131:28 pm
        by G

        Reply

        I wouldn’t call Shabazz a “3&D guy”, which may have been why he was left off the list (although McLemore isn’t a 3&D either, nor are Porter or Iggy). It’s weird that over half the names on this guy’s fix-it list will be drafted in the first round, and the Pistons only have 1 pick… Almost any combination Vic named would require the Pistons to be using two rookies as “the answer”. 

        How exactly is Kenyon Martin a “LeBron Slowdowner”? Or Tony Mitchell?

        Not sure Wolters or MCW are “true PG’s” either… 

      • Jun 14, 20131:57 pm
        by Vic

        Reply

        Shabazz could be a 3-D player, but he had minimal steals for an SG, minimal assists for an SF.

        Iggys more D than 3, but he had a couple years where he shot 3a at a high percentage.
        Mclemore has more 3 than D, but he obviously has the athleticism to develop on D as he gets stronger. 

        • Jun 14, 20132:37 pm
          by G

          Reply

          Shabazz didn’t take a ton of threes and projects as a slightly above average defender at best. Not much three, not much D. Bad description for him. 

          Iggy was just above average in 3P% twice in his career, below average the other 7 seasons. Not 3 & D. Calling McLemore a “3 & D” player belittles what he actually does on the offensive end. 

        • Jun 14, 20135:11 pm
          by I HATE FRANK

          Reply

          Shabazz has more defensive potential than given credir for…and he took and made more 3′s than Olapido, and his 3 point numbers was almost the same as porter

          • Jun 17, 20138:17 am
            by G

            He needed to take about twice as many threes if he wanted to be considered a 3PT shooter, and he needs to start living up to his defensive potential if he’s going to qualify for the D part of “3 & D”.

            All this talk about “defensive potential” reminds me of Stuckey, who people have said for YEARS has had the potential to be a great defender. The problem is Stuckey is still a mediocre defender and people are still talking about his “potential”. Can Muhammad be a good-to-average defender? Yes. But that carries little weight with me until he starts living up to it. There are things I think he can do in the NBA, but 3&D doesn’t seem to be his profile. 

    • Jun 14, 201312:41 pm
      by Sergio Fried Chicken

      Reply

      Please people stop about the darko pick wade bosh and melo would have left anyways period we still won the ship that year so im good with that.

      • Jun 14, 201312:52 pm
        by Ryan

        Reply

        If they were winning championships 5 years before becoming FAs there’s no guarantee they would’ve left. But I do agree – spilled milk and hypotheticals.

      • Jun 14, 201312:57 pm
        by mike

        Reply

        Plus Carmelo has one of the all-time worst playoff records. I really don’t think we would’ve won anymore with him than without. And Bosh is not that superstar that ppl think. He was never going to lead us to a championship.

        Not taking Wade was the mistake. I think we would’ve won at least one more just off the fact that the 2006 Heat would’ve never existed, and Wade would’ve been doing that whole run for us instead.

        Who knows, with Wade here maybe LeBron and Bosh join him here in 2010 instead of MIA.

        But, no one knew Wade would be this good at the time, and was never in the discussion at #2, so whatever.

        I agree though that firing Brown was the end. After thing after with Flip was just a team past their prime trying for one more, but you knew the rest of the league had caught up to us, and we never made anymore big additions to stay above them, so it was obvious those Flip teams weren’t going to win it all.

        The beginning of the 06 team was just riding what LB had taught them on defense combined with Flips offense, and it made them unstoppable. But once the playoffs came and there’s was no LB to strategize and gameplan, we were toast. Flip never had a chance vs Riley, but Brown could’ve won us that series I believe.

        • Jun 14, 20138:57 pm
          by rick77

          Reply

          Wade didn’t do any interviews and didn’t want to workout for the Piston’s. We also had Rip at the time so what position would he had played? Came into the league playing the point instead of the two. We picked the right guy, he just didn’t have the cajones to carve his niche.

          • Jun 17, 20138:22 am
            by G

            Hang on… The Pistons DIDN’T pick the right guy. ‘Melo was probably the right guy, or trading the pick. Everybody who says they should’ve taken Wade or Bosh are using hindsight, which would be like saying the Pistons should’ve taken Michael Redd in the 2000 Draft… Yeah, he was better than what they got, except that wasn’t the conventional wisdom at the time.

      • Jun 14, 20131:05 pm
        by I HATE FRANK

        Reply

        I supported and defended the Darko move…but i really believed the Pistons were going to draft Melo…

        But in Hindsight, Melo would have wanted out of Detroit before his career every really got started

  • Jun 14, 201312:22 pm
    by I HATE FRANK

    Reply

    the hiring of Cheeks by himself doesnt bother.

    What bothers me is that there are soo many good and proven coaches avaialbe, there are younger coaches avaiable.

    When you consider that his team needs a clear leader, or something or someone that can inspire HOPE. When you considered hiring a coach is what we have the most control over…

    Meaning in the Draft will cant pick until 8th
    Free-Agency – we’ll have to overpay just to entice a player to look our way
    trades -  depending on other team needs

    right now there are more good coaches availalbe than there are coaching jobs avialble, I mean are you telling me that if we had put Cheeks on the back burner, and pursed Hollis, Karl, Vinny, or Shaw and they all said No… Cheeks still wouldnt be there?

    but im hoping for the best

     

    • Jun 14, 20131:31 pm
      by G

      Reply

      Cheeks would’ve been sitting by his phone. I agree, bad move for Dumars to make up his mind while Karl, Hollins and Shaw are still in the wind. VDN is a disaster, I’d probably feel the same about him as I do with Cheeks.

      • Jun 14, 20132:51 pm
        by I HATE FRANK

        Reply

        yeah its like we rushed to sign cheeks, like he had people knocking down his door

      • Jun 14, 20133:03 pm
        by G

        Reply

        The weird thing is, they ended up in the middle. I feel like they could’ve gotten a better coach if they’d pulled the trigger earlier (Larry Drew, Budenholzer) or later (Shaw, Karl, Hollins). Instead, they said “well, we’re pretty far along in our interview process, so we’re going to act like these good candidates don’t exist and that Cheeks is the best option.” Just stupid.

    • Jun 14, 20139:01 pm
      by rick77

      Reply

      If any of the aforementioned coaches were any good then they would still be coaching their perspective teams right now. Karl is the only one I would have wanted. The others had rosters that were better than ours so of course they did good with what they had. On that list none of those guys won a title with the talent they had. So what makes anyone believe they would have struck gold in Detroit?

  • Jun 14, 201312:57 pm
    by Ryan

    Reply

    I disagree with one implication from Patrick’s piece – Chauncey was at an all-star level in 2008, but the team had peaked under Flip and they knew they had to do something to try and avoid dropping into the lottery (they tried and failed, but they had to try). Because Chauncey was at that level, he was the most trade-able asset, so most of us figured his days were probably numbered. 

    The biggest rumors were that they had a shot at Kobe and a blockbuster in the works with Boston (which will be ironic if we somehow end up with Rondo). But after that, it was Iverson or McGrady – or taking a flyer on some more young players and cast-offs.

    Clearly, Joe’s gambles didn’t work out, but the clock was ticking on that group already, so a lot of us were looking forward to a trade to rejuvenate the team – and had our first Dumars-related panic attack when we heard that he settled on Iverson.

    • Jun 14, 20131:33 pm
      by G

      Reply

      Dumars also mis-identified the players who were expendable. Sheed should’ve been GONE after the 2008 ECF, and Rip was also outlasting his usefulness already.

      • Jun 14, 20131:51 pm
        by Ryan

        Reply

        Yeah – I wonder if they weren’t getting good offers for Rip. That definitely seems like it would’ve been the better move.

      • Jun 14, 20132:47 pm
        by G

        Reply

        After the 2008 ECF, Dumars said something to the effect of “there are no sacred cows”, meaning anyone could go. At the time I thought he would listen to offers for core pieces of the championship team, but really the only one in serious trouble was Sheed (who gave up in the ECF well before it was really over).

        I don’t know why they wouldn’t have been getting good offers for Rip. He had a really good playoffs that year. 

  • Jun 14, 20131:03 pm
    by Crispus

    Reply

    I don’t see how you can talk about Joe Dumars reclamation projects without mentioning Antonio McDyess, and to a lesser extent, Tracy McGrady. McDyess was coming off an Grant Hill-like string of serious injuries when Joe D brought him on. He became a stalwart contributor to the team, even resigning for less money at one point if I remember correctly. Tracy McGrady was on his way out of the league when Dumars gave him a modest contract and a chance to show he could still play – a little. Although McGrady didn’t re-become a star, nothing was lost and his NBA career was extended.

    It seems like it’s been a while since Joe D found a gem like McDyess. I think Kyle Singler could be the next one though, as Dumars got him for $55 on craigslist. 

    • Jun 14, 20131:14 pm
      by ryan

      Reply

      I gotta agree. Antonio McDyess was a gamble that paid off, Tracy McGrady was a gamble that didn’t hurt, Corliss Williamson was a gamble that paid off. Khris Middleton and Kyle Singler both look like gambles that are going to pay off and I think Jonas Jerebko will come back around too.

      I am not a fan of hiring Maurice Cheeks either because I much prefer Nate McMillan but I think people are being a little ridiculous right now. Our roster has a lot of useful parts on it and we have the money to make some needed changes. I think we’re a likely playoff team next year.

      I also think that if Maurice Cheeks brings in a sharp offensive mind he could be a good coach. Let him be the manager with two assistants running the details of offense and defense.
       

  • Jun 14, 20131:06 pm
    by mike

    Reply

    Finding out that Joe is in the last year of his deal makes everything make sense now.

    All of the trades Joe has been making have been so he gets a chance to improve the team before its too late. Had he just waited for Gordons contract to expire, it would’ve been the same year his contract expired, and he would never have gotten a chance to use the money.

    I suppose you have to give your GM a chance if you allow him to be your GM, but its odd timing because if he makes the wrong moves with the money, and then gets fired next summer because of it, we are going to be fucked for the next however many years with those contracts, and the next GM is going to be handicapped right from the start.

    Perhaps that is why they are focusing more on trades than FA. Because picking up a great player in a trade means he likely only has a few years on his contract, so less longterm effects if it doesn’t pan out. 

    • Jun 14, 20131:07 pm
      by mike

      Reply

      vs giving out a big 4-5 yr deal to a FA

    • Jun 14, 20131:29 pm
      by Ryan

      Reply

      The focus on trades is hopefully a sign that they learned from Gordon/Villanueva and don’t want to overpay for Mayo/Redick. The market is thin.

      They could still overpay one player (Iguodala?), bring Calderon back on a short deal, and leave some flexibility (especially since Monroe, Drummond, Knight, and this year’s pick should be very trade-able).

      They might have to piece together some small contracts for Parsons, Budinger, Dorrell Wright, Martell Webster type players, because the market for trades isn’t that much better. Are there rumblings about who we might get through that route anyway?

      • Jun 14, 201310:26 pm
        by Matt

        Reply

        The one I keep hearing about is Shawn Marion. If we get him Iggy and Calderon than that leaves the lane pretty congested in the paint. We currently have an entire roster of role players and the only thing I see in that area we need is a center. We need real NBA talent and that may mean another trip to the lottery next year, or worse we end up the 9th worst team. With 2 big men that don’t have a jump shot that leaves us with a need to fill the SG and SF spots with guys that can shoot threes and stretch the floor. That might mean Mayo but he isn’t too enticing either. I would personally call Denver about one of their SF. Either Gallo or Chandler. Heck if they throw in one of their 3 centers that fills 2 needs. Iman Shumpert might become available too. That might be interesting. Luckily for us (aside from Drummond) no one on this team is really championship caliber so any one of them might be on the move if Dumars grows some cojones. I also heard Keven Love for Monroe but I don’t think either GM would be that brave/stupid, 

  • Jun 14, 20131:14 pm
    by deusXango

    Reply

    It will be a sad affair for all involved and the fans that support the team (with the emphasis on team) if the #1 object of reclamation is Rodney Stuckey. Why he won’t let that ship sail baffles me and one of the greatest mysteries in professional basketball; why would a GM destroy a team in an effort to glorify one average player? Hopefully Mo Cheeks changes that as the new coach.

    • Jun 14, 20133:40 pm
      by Gordbrown

      Reply

      This is of course the origin of Stuckey hate. For the millionth time yet again. Billups was traded for cap space. You can bitch about that all you want in that the cap space turned into Ben Gordon (although no amount of advanced statistics would have predicted how that was going to turn out). But Stuckey only moved into the starting line up because of injuries, not because he was the instant replacement for Billups. Billups was traded for another point guard and that guard was replaced on the roster by yet another guard. And remember, this is the same Billups who was amnestied by his team before his contract ran out. I believe that if Hamilton instead of Billups had been traded things would have turned out differently. But I also believe had Hamilton been traded when Gordon was signed (a trade that was supposedly killed above Dumars head) things also would have turned out differently.

      • Jun 14, 20133:55 pm
        by Patrick Hayes

        Reply

        “Second, the emergence of Stuckey made Billups expendable. Dumars believes Stuckey is the point guard of the future in Detroit. Billups has four more years on his contract, and Dumars didn’t want Stuckey playing a sixth man role that long.

        While it’s likely Iverson will start in the backcourt with Richard Hamilton this season, when Iverson hits free agency next year, Stuckey should take over as the starting point guard in Detroit.”

        http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/story?columnist=ford_chad&page=IversonTrade-Dumars-081103

        OK, so maybe the intention wasn’t for Stuckey to start from day one, but moving Billups was VERY clearly done because Dumars believed Stuckey was ready for a large role.

        • Jun 14, 20134:14 pm
          by Gordbrown

          Reply

          An article with no direct quotes and four factors is hardly the most convincing.

          • Jun 14, 20134:18 pm
            by Gordbrown

            It says that in five years Dumars believed that Stuckey would be equal to Billups. Which actually was what happened. Unfortunately as it turned out that was more a commentary on Billups deterioration than anything else.

  • Jun 14, 20131:16 pm
    by Big Rick

    Reply

    I feel you on the coaching I HATE FRANK, but would the big name coaches consider coming here? Lionel Hollins is a highly sought after dude in big markets and competitive teams like L.A. and Denver. You would almost have to treat the coaching hire like you treat free agency and break the bank in luring what’s considered an “elite” or “sexy hire” by the media. I’m so tired of the media using the word sexy in sports talking bout men. Geesh!

    But what has been the consensus of most league vets, coaches, experts, and media is that most times it takes a good roster to make a coach look good. Phil Jackson won’t coach the Bobcats (or any team that isn’t stacked with a megastar and another superstar), nobody recognized Doc Rivers while he coached the Magic and that’s why he’s contemplating leaving the Celtics because he doesn’t want to go through the rebuilding phase again. People forgot about Byron Scott while he coached the Cavs but he was considered a good coach when he coached the Nets with Kidd close to his peak.

    On the other side you have good to great coaches who can maximize the talent and inspire their team to perform at levels that surpass their overall talent like Thibbs from Chicago for example. In my opinion that’s what defines a great coach is when you get your team to overachieve despite the odds being against you. If you look at the scenario now days most big name coaches want a team already built and ready to compete for a championship rather than to have a team to build up and mold in his image, grow, forge an identity and compete. I guess the CBA contributes to that thinking and also the way the coach is always the fall guy if a team doesn’t perform to its perceived expectations. Two coach of the years being fired, released in the same year. That’s crazy!

    I think Mo Cheeks will prove all the naysayers wrong, given he has the FULL support of the management and Joe D. provides him a more balanced squad that compliments each other. This is the time that we’re in a position to do just that, shape a young roster with a nice infusion of vets to field a competitive team. I predict this will be our 1st .500 season in quite some time. I guess color me an optimistic homer with rose colored glasses. I bleed Pistons’ red, white and blue and my favorite color is red anyway.
     

    • Jun 14, 20131:32 pm
      by Ryan

      Reply

      Hopefully you’re right about Mo.

      But the numbers would’ve been in our favor at this point – 4 jobs (LAC, MEM, PHI, DET) for 3-4 solid coaches (Shaw, Hollins, Karl, possibly Rivers now). If Shaw stays with Indiana, we might have been the odd team out, but what advantages would the Sixers have, really. Would’ve been worth waiting a few extra weeks anyway.

    • Jun 14, 20132:55 pm
      by I HATE FRANK

      Reply

      With Kidd taking the Nets Job from no where… that means someone becomes availalbe…

      Also, Im not say that they would come here, but im saying you have to make that full effort.

      I’d rather Cheeks than Nate McMillian only because Nate has stepped away for awhile and the NBA has changed, atleast Cheeks have been arounf that change.

      I just dont like the fit

      • Jun 15, 20138:48 am
        by oats

        Reply

        Nate was a head coach in 2011-12. He only missed this past season and the last 23 of games of the strike shortened season. The league hasn’t changed much in that time.

  • Jun 14, 20131:24 pm
    by Tiko

    Reply

    If Stuckey is still a Piston next year I promise I won’t watch a single game

    • Jun 14, 20133:45 pm
      by Gordbrown

      Reply

      Don’t let the door hit your ass on the way out.

  • Jun 14, 20131:33 pm
    by Big Rick

    Reply

    In the press conference and information coming from the Maurice Cheeks hire, that is exactly what he signed up for… to mold and shape this team in his image. He was once known as one of the headiest, defensive minded, high basketball I.Q having, point guards (who managed star egos on the court of his generation). 

    Has anyone ever considered that after his coaching tenures in Philly & Portland that maybe the time spent away from the HC chair and being a lead assistant may have provided some insight or reflections on what he may or may not have done correctly during his time as a head coach? He was in a good spot with OKC, one season removed from the Finals, and a freak injury to Westbrook that may have prevented them from going back this year; and he left an annual competitor to come here.  This team is a reclamation project and I think we’re lucky to have someone of his class and caliber that wanted to take this task head on.

  • Jun 14, 20131:35 pm
    by I HATE FRANK

    Reply

    VALIDATED! – Sorry This has nothing to do with Cheek…Im in FULL DRAFT MODE!

    http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1670358-2013-nba-draft-breakdown-and-scouting-report-for-erick-green#/articles/1671637-nba-podcast-jay-bilas-answers-biggest-questions-heading-into-2013-nba-draft

    At around the 13 minute Mark Jay Bilas, says that ” Shabazz ast numner of misleading, because the system did not put him in position to get ast” He also said he believes Shabazz will be a good player” – Compared to Oj Mayo type, but different style

    • Jun 14, 20131:41 pm
      by Ryan

      Reply

      All Ben Howland products get taken down a peg in his system and in draft assessments, but for as many Shipps, Lees, and Farmars, you have the Love, Westbrook, Holiday, Collison, Afflalo. The naysayers won’t be appeased on him until the season starts. Would fit a need for us and would probably be a good pick if Burke and Bennett don’t slip.

      • Jun 14, 20132:49 pm
        by I HATE FRANK

        Reply

        @Ryan… been trying to tell people about Shabazz all year…

        Only recently a few have become a little more open minded, Bilas pretty much said everything i been preaching.

  • Jun 14, 20132:38 pm
    by danny

    Reply

    How about do something shocking and develop players and get them for cheap.  Find kids that know how to ball and teach them how to play together.  Teach them how to improve and give them a 5 year game plan.  People think just buying some what established players is going to solve everything.  it will help but its on us.

    • Jun 14, 20132:45 pm
      by Ryan

      Reply

      If we had Afflalo, Amir, Delfino, and Budinger right now, we’d be in decent shape.

      • Jun 14, 20132:59 pm
        by G

        Reply

        Better shape, but still in trouble.

  • Jun 14, 20132:43 pm
    by RyanK

    Reply

    I always find it laughable that a blogger thinks he has the low down on what decisions a team owner will make staffing the company.  While it might be true that Dumar’s head is on the chopping block, how in the world would anyone other than Gores and those Gores has disgusted this with know anything about that?

    Gores is not going to fire Joe D.  Joe D’s responsibilities with the team might change as some point in the future, but he absolutely will not fire the face and hero of the franchise.  Dumars might leave the team, but he will not be fired.

    If I’m going to start speculating like the bloggers on this site, I’ll speculate that what Dumars does with the check book matters significantly more to Gores than this coaching hire.  If Joe has positioned the team to bring in some veterans who lead by example and can bridge these young guys to becoming veterans, he will make his owner very happy.  Progress will be made in the win loss column.  

    It doesn’t matter who coached a team with 7 rookies, a variety of injuries, a starting PG with 50 games of experience, they would have failed last season.  Last season was a necessary year to get the car out of the mud and rolling again.  This is the year where progress will be seen if Dumars brings in the veterans that can show these young guys who you win games.  If he doesn’t bring in veterans, we will see little difference from a year ago.  If he does, we could easily see a .500 team that makes the playoffs.

    • Jun 14, 20132:58 pm
      by G

      Reply

      I think there is plenty of evidence to suggest Dumars is holding his job by a very thin thread. Gores has high expectations. What makes you think Dumars CAN’T get fired? What if Dumars blows this draft or this free agency, Cheeks sucks, and the team finishes in the bottom quarter of the league? Gores would be CRAZY to say “Dumars, you’ve done this team a service. Step down as GM & take a lower ranking front office job. We’re letting someone else call the shots now”. I’m not sure that’s ever happened in the history of the NBA.

      • Jun 14, 20133:28 pm
        by RyanK

        Reply

        No, you’re missing the point.  Gores has plenty of basketball friends and whether or not Dumars gets to decide who the coach is, who they draft, who they trade for, or who they sign as a free agent is Gores’ decision.  Dumars might not want to remain the GM under these circumstances, but this is a much more likely scenario than Dumars being canned.  Bill Davidson made a lot of moves for Dumars…Gores can and likely will do the same.

        I don’t see any evidence other than bloggers and reporters writing their opinion that Dumars’ job is in jeopardy.  Show me this vast “evidence” from a source other than an opinion of a writer.  It simply doesn’t exist.  Vince Ellis is the best Piston reporter in my opinion and he calls out people who say Dumars is going to be fired…he’s as close to the situation as anyone outside of it and he says there is no evidence at all.  

        Simply put, fans speculating about the situation is your “evidence.”  You don’t have any “evidence.” 

        • Jun 14, 20133:53 pm
          by G

          Reply

          Evidence? There’s never “evidence” in situations like this. The best you have to go on is innuendo, and Gores has been doing a lot of hinting.

          You mentioned that Davidson made a lot of moves for Joe D. What moves would those be? I always had the impression that Davidson was pretty hands off & let basketball guys make the basketball decisions. 

        • Jun 14, 20134:17 pm
          by G

          Reply

          As far as evidence goes, there’s nothing that’ll hold up in court, but you do have this:

          http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20130614/SPORTS0102/306140024

          http://www.freep.com/article/20130416/SPORTS03/304160069/detroit%20pistons%20lawrence%20frank%20joe%20dumars

          http://www.detroitbadboys.com/2013/4/14/4224846/nba-rumors-joe-dumars-on-the-ropes-nydn-reports

          http://www.mlive.com/pistons/index.ssf/2013/04/detroit_pistons_owner_tom_gore_4.html

          Like I said, nothing conclusive, but there are plenty of rumblings there. Some of this is journalists’ opinion, but that tends to be based on what they hear from their sources. The nature of reporting today is that sources RARELY get quoted and are often anonymous. Sometimes it’s hard to tell if a reporter is using a source or his or her own opinion, but if enough people are saying the same thing, it might be true.

        • Jun 14, 20135:04 pm
          by RyanK

          Reply

          Fired Carlisle.  It was widely reported Davidson wanted AI and nearly had completed a trade that would have brought him here, but Gieger (or something like that) had a no trade without approval clause and prevented it.  He then Fired Larry Brown.  All three were big moves Joe D had to sit and smile through.  How much of an influence did did Bill Davidson have on the actual trade for AI?  I don’t know…maybe it was Davidson who push for it.

          • Jun 14, 20135:12 pm
            by G

            Who’s the one basing his opinions on little evidence now?

            LB HAD to be fired for flirting with the Knicks job while the Pistons were trying to defend their title. What I read about the AI thing, it was Dumars that really wanted him here. Dumars fired Carlisle. It was due to problems with someone in the front office, but was it Davidson or someone else? 

    • Jun 14, 20133:48 pm
      by Patrick Hayes

      Reply

      @RyanK:

      I’ve been refraining from commenting for months, but you’ve been way too uppity lately, so I’ll make an exception.

      “I always find it laughable that a blogger thinks he has the low down on what decisions a team owner will make staffing the company”

      Where did I say I have the lowdown? I don’t have a clue what will happen. I said ‘consensus opinion seems to be.’ Am I wrong about that? I mean, as painful as it is to read comments on this site sometimes (especially yours), I don’t think it’s wrong for me to assume based on crowdsourcing that most people feel the writing is on the wall for Dumars if this season doesn’t feature a vastly improved product.

      “While it might be true that Dumar’s head is on the chopping block, how in the world would anyone other than Gores and those Gores has disgusted this with know anything about that?”

      LOL. “disgusted.”

      “Gores is not going to fire Joe D.  Joe D’s responsibilities with the team might change as some point in the future, but he absolutely will not fire the face and hero of the franchise.  Dumars might leave the team, but he will not be fired.”

      Did I write that he’d be fired? I believe I wrote, “Consensus opinion seems to be that if Joe Dumars didn’t get his latest coaching hire right, it will be his last as Pistons President of Basketball Operations.” Check that again for me. I know you’re slow. Does that say that Dumars will be fired? It pretty much says the same thing that you just wrote. If things don’t improve, there will likely be a chance. Maybe that will be a firing. Maybe it will be a ‘reassigning.’ Maybe it will be a mutual resignation. Whatever. It’s semantics. If the team is bad this year, based on Gores’ comments, there is a good chance that Dumars is held accountable.

      Also, he’s not the “face and hero” of the franchise. Shit, he might’ve only been the third most popular player on the Bad Boys title teams. Isiah was more popular and Laimbeer is like a cult figure in Michigan. Dumars was a very respected player by fans, deservedly. He’s had an up and down career as an executive, which makes getting rid of him a complex situation. But teams firing former players with great histories with the franchise is not unprecedented (see Alan Trammell). Dumars’ playing history has zero influence on a decision to keep him or let him go, as it should be.

      “If I’m going to start speculating like the bloggers on this site”

      Speculate deez nutz.

      “what Dumars does with the check book matters significantly more to Gores than this coaching hire.”

      Well, his last turn at that didn’t go so well, did it? What gives you confidence it will go better this time?

      ” If Joe has positioned the team to bring in some veterans who lead by example and can bridge these young guys to becoming veterans, he will make his owner very happy.”

      Hooray! Here’s Marco Bellinelli, Elton Brand and Matt Barnes, Mr. Gores!

      ” This is the year where progress will be seen if Dumars brings in the veterans that can show these young guys who you win games.”

      FACT: Greg Monroe and Brandon Knight have never won a game in their lives. I can’t wait to get someone in here to show them that you JUST HAVE TO WANT IT MORE GUYS.

      “This is the year where progress will be seen if Dumars brings in the veterans that can show these young guys who you win games.  If he doesn’t bring in veterans, we will see little difference from a year ago.”

      Seriously, WTF is your obsession with ‘veterans?’ The Pistons need good fucking players, period, whether they’ve been in the league seven years or seven minutes. They have a shortage of guys who can play. If Joe Dumars goes and acquires good, productive players, the two good, productive players they have in Monroe and Drummond, they’ll be better. If he doesn’t, they won’t.

      “If he does, we could easily see a .500 team that makes the playoffs.”

      Does a .500 team excite you? Serious question. Attendance is a major, major issue. If the team middles it’s way to a .500 record, as a fan, are you going to pay to go watch? I’m skeptical. The Pistons need an exciting, winning team to get their building close to full again. I’m not sure .500 fits that definition. It might be enough to prolong Dumars’ job for another year as more pieces are added, but you act like .500 is some miraculous benchmark. Getting back to mediocrity is not that significant an accomplishment.

      • Jun 14, 20135:21 pm
        by I HATE FRANK

        Reply

        @Ryan …You Been Served!

        • Jun 14, 20135:26 pm
          by RyanK

          Reply

          Served what, more of the same?  Patrick demonstrated more it.

      • Jun 14, 20135:25 pm
        by RyanK

        Reply

        If you point out a typo as a way to discredit me, it shows just how weak your argument is.  I never proof read stuff that doesn’t matter.

        The consensus…that’s what you’re going on.  Okay, this all makes sense now…  Like the consensus among a bunch of bloggers is what a guy like Gores uses to make his decisions…  Gores has become a wealthy man going against the consensus buying up companies the consensus said are worthless.  Gores’ track record would indicate he will do the opposite of the consensus.  

        Veteran players win in the NBA.  With very few exceptions (Magic and Duncan), teams lead by players with 5-10 year experience win in the playoffs.  I don’t need to go any further, history speaks for itself.  Once in a generation, the trend is bucked and when a hall famer/past league MVP is riding shot gun, I’m not sure it’s being bucked at all.

        If you think Joe D is going to get the vets through free agency, it shows just how little you know about the NBA.  He’ll get some quality players this summer, but it won’t be through free agency.

        Dumars had a major part in 3 banners hanging from the rafters.  Allen Trammell (MVP and champion) was a great player, but never had success as a manager…Dumars has had a lot of success, boarder-lining on genius in some cases.  

        Yeah, .500 basketball and getting into a seven game series with the Heat does excite me.  Until Monroe, Knight, and Dre can take the team further, that’s the best we’re going to have in Detroit…and it beats what we’ve had.  

        • Jun 15, 20132:45 am
          by tarsier

          Reply

          The consensus that you don’t care about determines that you lost this one.

        • Jun 15, 20133:35 am
          by Patrick Hayes

          Reply

          Sorry RyanK, I’m not done tonight.

          First, I have to say, I ADORE the sneering way you type ‘blogger’ as if it’s some sort of derogatory term or insult. I write for a highly popular and successful Pistons site that continuously grows, has several highly intelligent, funny and enlightened commenters in its community, is part of the amazing TrueHoop Network (which boasts some of the best NBA writers anywhere), has a weekly column with the Detroit Free Press, etc. Not to brag, but I also drive a Dodge Stratus and can do 100 pushups in 15 minutes. I’m OK with my life choices. What does it say about you that you are a long-term commenter (I hope you read that in the same preening douchebag voice that I read ‘blogger’ whenever you type it) on a site you don’t like with writers you don’t respect? If anyone has some evaluating of life choices to do, it’s you. I’m OK with being a PistonPowered blogger. It has worked out OK for me. As for your latest comment …

          “If you point out a typo as a way to discredit me, it shows just how weak your argument is.”

          I didn’t point it out to discredit you. I’m OK with typos. That particular one — ‘disgusted’ instead of ‘discussed’ — was just funny to me. It was worth highlighting for its sheer adorableness.

          “The consensus…that’s what you’re going on.  Okay, this all makes sense now…  Like the consensus among a bunch of bloggers is what a guy like Gores uses to make his decisions”

          Haha. There’s that word again. I don’t know what Gores uses to make decisions. I do know that teams are influenced by fan apathy and the Pistons, based on attendance, have a very apathetic and uninspired fanbase right now. I do know that every major media outlet covering the team in the state has had at least one columnist or reporter in the last week argue that this could be Dumars’ last chance to get this team turned around. I do know that it is extremely common for owners of pro sports teams to be influenced by fan action or inaction and media in their markets. I’ve written about the team long enough to have a good feel for the fact that that the general confidence in Dumars, based on our readership which represents a fairly large sample size of Pistons fans, has eroded to the point that he seems to have fewer believers than non-believers right now. All of these things seem relevant and worth discussing to me. But what do I know? I’m just a blogger.

          “Gores has become a wealthy man going against the consensus buying up companies the consensus said are worthless.”

          Isn’t the very nature of Gores’ business to buy companies precisely because they are worthless? Then take those companies, sell off or reallocate the resources they do have, strip them down to the bare minimum, then sell them for profit? That’s obviously not a super complex definition of private equity firms, but that’s generally how it works, is it not? Gores isn’t performing some magic by finding underperforming companies that other people don’t see the value in. He’s buying companies that failed, stripping them down, and making a profit off of what he can. I’m not hating on the industry or Gores for being good at what he does, but it is what it is.

          “Gores’ track record would indicate he will do the opposite of the consensus.”

          Uh … no it doesn’t. There are plenty of highly successful private equity firms in the country. Plenty of times, Gores has faced competition in acquiring failing companies to invest in. Gores invests in things that are good investments for him. That doesn’t mean that plenty of other people don’t also think those things are good investments.

           ”Veteran players win in the NBA.  With very few exceptions (Magic and Duncan), teams lead by players with 5-10 year experience win in the playoffs.”

          Correlation does not equal causation. With no exceptions, teams with multiple very good players win in the playoffs. The Pistons have no players who qualify as ‘very good’ right now and only two who have shown the potential to be very good in the near future. They need more very good players. I don’t care how old those players are. If they are very good and available, the Pistons should be pursuing them regardless of age.

          “I don’t need to go any further, history speaks for itself.”

          Translation: “I’ve made no argument. I’ve given no supporting data. I rest my case.”

          “If you think Joe D is going to get the vets through free agency, it shows just how little you know about the NBA.  He’ll get some quality players this summer, but it won’t be through free agency.”

          Osmosis? Did he invent a real life ‘create a player’ option like in NBA2k? Please, do tell, what is this mysterious secrete of the universe that only RyanK, NBA and internet commenting savant, knows about?

          And where did I say that Dumars was definitely acquiring players through free agency? That’s one of his options, and frankly, his most terrifying option considering his free agency track record.

          “Dumars had a major part in 3 banners hanging from the rafters.”

          Two of which are completely irrelevant to any discussion about his performance as team president.

          “Dumars has had a lot of success, boarder-lining on genius in some cases.”

          Only positive attributes count in RyanK’s game of making illogical arguments based on zero relevant information. But seriously, I did think the Tracy McGrady signing was genius. I love T-Mac.

          “Yeah, .500 basketball and getting into a seven game series with the Heat does excite me.”

          Congratulations, you’re a Milwaukee Bucks fan! Here is your new home! Now GTFOH.

          • Jun 15, 20139:48 am
            by RyanK

            I started typing replies to all your nonsense, but it’s not worth it.  You’re emotional, so you’ll never see logic while you’re pissed.  Keep up the blogging, without you and Dan there wouldn’t be much to read this time of the year.

          • Jun 17, 20138:30 am
            by G

            @ RyanK – That’s some weak shit.

  • Jun 14, 20133:49 pm
    by acr

    Reply

    Totally off topic, but ESPN has a piece on those with cap room/flexibility to sign both Chris Paul and Dwight Howard, and lays out a scenario where could do so AND also keep both Drummond and Monroe.  While this is of course highly unlikely (and while I would love Paul, I can’t stand Howard – despite his obvious talent) – it’s the cap flexibility piece that I find most intriguing, particularly if we get involved with “cap relief” trade scenarios this summer.  While Dumars obviously has not done well with cap space in the recent past, and I’m mostly just expecting a starting caliber player or two this summer, it never occurred to me that we would actually have the space to sign two max players (not Paul and Howard specifically – but any max-type player) – if we could convince them to come somehow.  

    Here’s the Pistons section of the piece (they rank them with the 3rd best chance, behind Hawks and Clippers – “Two snowballs in hell”):

    Detroit Pistons: Two snowballs
     
     

     
     
    The Pistons are the distant wild card in these proceedings. If Detroit waivesRodney Stuckey, whose contract is guaranteed for $4 million next season, and uses the amnesty provision on Charlie Villanueva, the Pistons would not have anyone making more than $5 million on the roster next season. They’d need to cut about $6 million in salary, which they could accomplish by packaging Brandon Knight with forward Jonas Jerebko (two years left on his deal at $4.5 million apiece) to a team under the cap or with a trade exception. Alternatively, Detroit could trade the No. 8 pick and convince Paul and Howard to take a couple hundred thousand less than the max apiece.
    By doing so, Paul and Howard would join a Pistons team that still has quality young talent. Greg Monroe could work next to Howard If he develops a midrange game, and Detroit would have promising second-year center Andre Drummond as either part of the world’s most talented center rotation or trade bait to improve the wings. Nonetheless, it’s hard to see Detroit, hardly a destination for NBA players, forming the next superteam. Their sights are set much lower in free agency. 

  • Jun 14, 20134:05 pm
    by acr

    Reply

    Also, just so I don’t look like a totally douche for posting that link right at the same time that Patrick’s comment was posted, I liked his piece in the freep this morning and I think that there is no question that Dumars is again valuing someone that others do not.  Whether or not it works out, we’ll see (and I guess I’ve got some rose-esque glasses on – though not full on rose-colored) – but this is definitely a make or break hire – and summer – for Dumars.

  • Jun 14, 20136:04 pm
    by Big Rick

    Reply

    Shoot, who won’t be targeting Iggy? Just about every team that has adequate cap space will. Good info tho.

  • Jun 14, 20137:32 pm
    by Ozzie-Moto

    Reply

    IT is spot on  JD has a hugely distorted vision of players and coaches … it has to do with who he is “comfortable” with … under dogs /  projects /  coaches that won’t show him up like larry Brown did etc… unfortunately how good they be either for wins or even excitement get left way behind … it an old slow boys club… mean while the fan base has left and as i have said at this point it ALL ON TOM GORES since he bought the club he has made these major decisions …Kept JD / Hired Frank/ Kept JD again / no hired Mo Cheeks….  He been a huge disappointment. I basically think he been chicken to really take ownership leaving Joe Dumars to take the heat for endless mediocrity.  So now we have another year or two of the same….  AND PS there going to be at least one much better coach that will be left available it looks like and we stuck with a reclamation coach……   sigh
     

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