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Report: Joe Dumars and Lawrence Frank will be fired after season, according to sources writer doesn’t absolutely trust

Mitch Lawrence of the New York Daily News:

It’s been a long run for team president Joe Dumars, but league sources say that Dumars’ reign will soon be coming to a close. Dumars is so entrenched and such an iconic figure from his playing days, we’ll believe it when we see it. But it sure sounds as if he’s on his way out, along with Lawrence Frank, who is finishing his second season as coach.

I’m posting this because it’s out there, not because I necessarily believe it. Even Lawrence hedges his bets by noting, despite his sources saying Joe Dumars and Lawrence Frank are out, he’s not certain.

A few of my New York-based friends were split on whether to trust this report, and I have mixed feelings as well.

Lawrence was plugged in during the Pistons coaching search, independently reported the Pistons hired Frank and broke news Frank hired Dee Brown as an assistant coach. He also had a source who knew Tom Gores’ thinking even before Gores bought the Pistons:

After Bill Davidson died in March, 2009, it was assumed that Karen Davidson would sell the team and the other entities. Because of the dire economic circumstances facing metropolitan Detroit, the four entities were expected to bring in at most $350 million. Another area businessman, Tom Gores, has been mentioned as a potential buyer, but he "was not even close to making a bid," said the league official.

Lawrence has been an NBA columnist for the Daily News since 1995, so his time in New York overlapped with Dave Checketts, who served as president of Madison Square Garden from 1994 to 2001. Checketts, if you don’t remember, was brought in by Gores as a consultant when he bought the team.

So, it’s certainly plausible Lawrence has sources who know Gores’ thinking.

It’s also certainly plausible Gores will fire Dumars and Frank.

Dumars has been on the job longer than any current general manager, save Sacramento’s Geoff Petrie and Utah’s Kevin O’Connor. Drafting Greg Monroe and Andre Drummond has given the Pistons a brighter future, and while Dumars deserves credit for those picks, he was certainly aided by teams ahead of Detroit foolishly passing on those two. Regardless of whether you believe Dumars should stay (as I do), it’s easy to build a compelling case he’s run his course.

Frank is a much simpler case, as coaches are more disposable. The Pistons have lost badly during his tenure, and unlike Dumars, Frank doesn’t have as strong a track record to fall back on.

If this is the end for both, the only surprise will be that Mitch Lawrence (sort of) broke the story.

89 Comments

  • Apr 14, 20139:19 pm
    by CityofKlompton

    Reply

    I’d really like to see Joe turn it around with a return to glory, but it’d be hard to argue against the decision to let him go.  That being said, I think he could right the ship if this ends up being a false report.

  • [...] his second season as coach. Piston Powered has info on the reporter pushing this rumor. Report: Joe Dumars and Lawrence Frank will be fired after season, according to sources writer doesn&… Lawrence has been an NBA columnist for the Daily News since 1995, so his time in New York [...]

  • Apr 14, 20139:51 pm
    by jerrific

    Reply

    If Joe does get fired he better be replaced quickly. We need someone at the helm this offseason, unless we plan on standing pat with all that cap space we have. 
     

  • Apr 14, 201310:01 pm
    by Talan

    Reply

    I don’t know how I feel about this. I don’t have any particular loyalty to Frank or Joe. Neither have been great or terrible. Mediocre apparently doesn’t sit well with our owner, and I see this as a good thing! 

    This really gives us an opportunity to judge Gores as an owner. Will he choose to spend and bring in a proven replacement, or can he pick a diamond in the rough? Can he form a successful organizational culture with his own people? He seems to have done it with his own businesses…but can that translate to the Pistons? I sure hope so. I look forward to this offseason of change. 

  • Apr 14, 201310:09 pm
    by Reaction

    Reply

    I just hope they commit to completely rebuilding instead of halfing it.

  • Apr 14, 201310:13 pm
    by domnick

    Reply

    i think joe d will be given another year to build this team around… but frank will get fired.. hmmm

    who will our next gm?

  • Apr 14, 201310:17 pm
    by Bryan

    Reply

    Given some limited experience I have in leadership and leadership development, I think it’s a bad move to change leadership at a pivotal time like this summer. If Gores doesn’t have confidence in Dumars, a wiser move is to bring in a consultant to help through this summer and make the change next year. Gores is a smart businessman and I would be very surprised to see him start axing leadership when there are so many important strategic decisions. Also, wasn’t it gores who said you don’t change a pan without seeing it through? My only caveat is if gores has someone has fallen in love with for the position.

    • Apr 14, 201310:31 pm
      by Reaction

      Reply

      I mean it is possible that Gores has people in mind. He’s a very intelligent man and has watched this team very closely over the last two years. I think it is possible that he has people in mind for the positions.

    • Apr 14, 201310:45 pm
      by Talan

      Reply

      I agree that this is a pivotal offseason, but isn’t every offseason? There are always draft picks, trades, and contract negotiations to be made. If your going to bring in a new guy, why let Dumars pick his guys then fire him next offseason. That makes even less sense.

      Hard to believe Gores has already owned the team for two years. He’s probably seen enough. Overpay Stuckey, Potentially lose a draft pick, hire a mediocre coach. Dumars has crafted a team with no identity. Can’t blame him for wanting to go a new direction. 

      • Apr 15, 201310:27 am
        by Huddy

        Reply

        This offseason is considerably different than most for the Pistons.  The GM position hasn’t had this level of flexibility in cap space and a high draft pick in a difficult draft and a decision on head coaching in some time.  We haven’t been this financially flexible since the Gordon and CV signings and every year since has been less pivotal because we tied our hands with that move.  Yes things happen every year, but some years are obviously different than others.  I would actually say if Gores want’s to make a move it almost makes more sense to do it now than wait a year so that whoever the new guy is can make roster moves rather than being handed someone elses team.  I don’t really think we need to make a GM change, but this year will be the deciding factor.

  • Apr 14, 201310:57 pm
    by frankie d

    Reply

    Cant say i would hate either move.  
    Frank definitely. needs to go. 
    I have long argued that joe d has made a real mess over the last 5 years so getting fired is certainly reasonable, at this juncture.
    No matter, i will feel very ambivalent seeing my favorite bad boy leave the scene.  I will truly miss him, after he has been a part of the scene for the last 25+ years.
    Frank?  I will celebrate his departure with a 20 oz imperial pint of my favorite Imperial IPA from here in the pacific NW: Walking Man’s Homo Erectus!  (Just got a growler from the brewery and i am going to leave it alone till the end of the year, when all the firings should happen.)
     

  • Apr 14, 201311:06 pm
    by Corey

    Reply

    If Gores fires Dumars after the season, he’d better have an experienced new GM waiting in the wings. A lot of uncertainty and missed chances this summer could set the recovery back years. 

  • Apr 14, 201311:14 pm
    by Jay

    Reply

    Firing Frank is easy, there are dozens of assistants and former head coaches who could come in and so a better job. Replacing a GM is much more difficult. The proven guys who are available for fired somewhere else this making them available, and young guys and asst. GM’s are tricky because they have no track record and turning over a rebuilding team to someone like that is a huge risk!

    I’m no insider but I have to believe that the drafting of solid starters with all-star potential Knight, Drummond, and Monroe, finding solid potential rotation player in the second round in Middleton and Singler, and jettisoning the contracts of Prince and Gordon bus Joe at least one more year.

    The only thing I think that saves Frank is that when he hired he was reportedly Gores choice (over Avery Johnson) and he may want to give his guy a chance to see it through.

    • Apr 14, 201311:25 pm
      by oats

      Reply

      It’s hard to say Knight has All Star potential. He is a long ways from that level now, and I’d be happy if he could become an average starter. He really doesn’t belong in that list. While Dumars gets some credit for Monroe and Drummond, those were very obvious selections. They were both the best player available and the best at filling team needs. I guess he gets credit for not just blowing it, but I don’t know if that should save his job.
       

      • Apr 15, 20132:25 am
        by jerrific

        Reply

        Honestly, I’d be happy with Knight turning into a consistent sixth man. I could see him filling a role similar to Will Bynum’s pretty effectively, but I’m not sure he’ll ever be a good starter in this league. He’s too small to play SG, and doesn’t have enough grasp of the game to run point.  

        • Apr 15, 20133:08 am
          by oats

          Reply

          I mostly agree with you, although I think his height isn’t that big of a problem. He has long arms, which gives him a higher standing reach than JJ Redick despite being listed as 2 inches shorter than Redick. Knight is also a decent athlete. He’s definitely quicker than most shooting guards, and that will help. He needs to gain some weight and not get pushed around too much, but I think he could be a shooting guard if he gains 15-20 lbs over the next few years. My problem with him at that position is that he is just too streaky. If he’s a bench player you can absorb those off nights, but as a starting shooting guard you really can’t hide him when he’s just off. There’s nothing wrong with him being a good 6th man, and I’d be happy to have him in that role. He could totally be one of the 5 best players on the team but still a 6th man.

  • Apr 14, 201311:46 pm
    by Mark

    Reply

    I have nothing against Joe staying. 

    But if this report is true, its likely because Gores already has someone else lined up to take over, and I have to say I’m very intrigued to find out who that may be.

    He could have a big name lined up with an even better track record than Joe. He did say he’s planning on going “All in” this summer. 

    • Apr 14, 201311:49 pm
      by Mark

      Reply

      And given how bad we’ve been the last 5 yrs, I couldn’t be mad if we cleaned house and went a different direction.

  • Apr 15, 201312:14 am
    by Blocks by Dre (Burke for the win!!)

    Reply

    It’s time for the both of them to go. We need to move in another direction and keeping either of them won’t help that. Take Drummond and Monroe out of the palace and once they’re away just blow it up and start from scratch with those 2. Everyone else on this team is far from untouchable (to say the VERY least) and if we can flip ANY of the players on this team other than our twin towers for a first round pick I say do it with zero hesitation.

    • Apr 15, 20131:34 am
      by oats

      Reply

      That depends on how high of a first. Knight would probably need to fetch a top 8 pick in this draft to be worth it, or a likely lottery pick in the future. It’s not that I love Knight’s game, I just really don’t like what happens after about pick 8 in this draft. You’d have to get a clear upgrade either in talent or in fit, and I’m not convinced one of those guys exists after about 8. There’s a couple guys after that spot with the potential to pass Knight, but if that is the trade straight up it isn’t actually adding enough value to be worth it. This draft is a lot like the 2011 draft talent wise, and Knight was probably a top 10 talent from that draft.
       
      I don’t see another guy outside of those 3 who could fetch even a late first, so I don’t see any point in arguing over the rest of them. That’s why I felt I had to respond, the comment might as well have been you want to trade Knight for a first round pick. My response is simple, which first round pick?

      • Apr 15, 20136:19 am
        by Blocks by Dre (Burke for the win!!)

        Reply

        That’s the problem with this team: no one is worth anything outside of those 3. Knight at best is a decent starter to me at this point and while you might have a little more faith in him than I do I have to stand pat with what I said about trading him for a first round pick; however I should have clarified that the pick should be top 10 in this draft and if we can’t get that then top 15 any other draft. How sad is it that no one else on this team isn’t worth a 1st round pick even in this weak draft class?

      • Apr 15, 201311:21 am
        by tarsier

        Reply

        I’d happily flip Knight for a mid first rounder. On average, you might get a slight downgrade in talent, but replacing Knight would not be that hard and you are severely underestimating the value of the player having two more seasons of rookie scale left.

        But I’m also happy keeping Knight. He makes a nice SG who can play a little PG here and there and can play strong defense. A valuable role player who could still develop into something more.

  • Apr 15, 201312:37 am
    by George

    Reply

    If JoeD is fired, I hope we invest in a gm/president who understands the value of analytics.  Teams like Denver, Memphis, and Houston built deep rosters utilizing advanced statistics to evaluate players and lineups (technologies like SportVU).

    It seems like JoeD is still doing stuff the old fashioned way, and when you do that, you end up with rosters with guys like Charlie V and Daye.

    We already have our potential superstar in Drummond, and a broderline all-star in Monroe, now we need a gm to come in and surround them with a deep roster so we can compete on a nightly basis.  JoeD seems to double down on all his bets (player-wise) instead of cutting his losses and moving on.

    Look at what Houston did.  They knew they were just a meddling .500 team, so they blew the team up, and created space for a star (once one became available).  With all the draft picks and pieces they had available, they got Harden.  They also invested in value guys, like Asik, who has shown to be a savvy big that looks to be a playoff quality starter for the next few years.  Now they look like they will be a solid team for the next decade.  The same can be said about the chances a team like Denver made to build their team.  We need a GM who has the stuff to cut losses and make big moves.

    Sorry for the rambling, I am indifferent to Frank being let go because he inherited a stinker of a roster.  JoeD deserved to be fired last year.  He had a great run, and he will always be my all-time favorite Piston.  It’s just time to move on. 

  • Apr 15, 20133:06 am
    by Brandon Knight

    Reply

    Oh Knight is not a starter, oh Knight is far from being an All-Star, oh Knight is good out of the bench….. Please give me a break! Without Knight Pistons could have not won 10 games.

    • Apr 15, 20133:55 am
      by Robert Bayer

      Reply

      I absolutely agree ..Knight is one of the few players on this team who plays all out .. It is not his fault he is being coached by dumb headlights in the eyes head coach  Get a good coach and watch him become an all star.  For me, the fact that Knight is not what he should be is proof Frank is the wrong head coach. Will celebrate drunkenly when he departs.  Will pay $10 to everyone on this comment board if he is ever hired as head coach of an NBA team again.

      • Apr 15, 20134:24 am
        by oats

        Reply

        Knight is what he should have been projected to be. Most guys with Knight’s college resume look more like this than not. I just don’t see enough evidence that Frank is bad at developing players. I’m not saying he’s good at it, I just don’t think he’s particularly bad at it. Then again, I don’t think coaches do much in the way of developing players anyways, at least outside of making certain the guy gets minutes. Knight clearly has been given enough minutes to develop, so I don’t think Frank deserves the blame here. He probably could have done a bit better, but very few coaches are actually good at developing players. 

        • Apr 15, 201311:28 am
          by tarsier

          Reply

          Knight was a smart pick. He is about what he could be expected to become. But he definitely showed a chance of being significantly better. By the second half of the lottery, you can rarely do much better than that.

          I’d rather go for the high ceiling than the high floor any day. And, as it turns out, Knight hasn’t really been a bust anyway. He just hasn’t been a steal either.

    • Apr 15, 20133:56 am
      by oats

      Reply

      How much laughing was that intended to get? It got a chuckle from me, but that’s because you often say ridiculous crap. Knight is crazy far from being an All Star, he isn’t close. Right now he’s not done enough to deserve being a starter, and so far he projects as a very good bench player for a good team. This team happens to be awful so he absolutely has to start. Still, even without him the team wins more than 10 games. Screw it, I’ll run with it.
       
      If Knight missed the season then the team would have certainly filled that hole with someone better than English, but let’s pretend like that isn’t true. Stuckey becomes the opening day starting point guard and Singler starts at shooting guard. As bad as Stuckey’s been this year, and he has been bad, his significantly reduced number of turnovers actually gives him a strong case for having had a better year than Knight. On top of that, part of why Stuckey sucked is that he seems to think shooting guards have to shoot 3 pointers, but he wouldn’t have been playing off ball much. I think we see a better Stuckey if he played point guard and the team’s starting lineup would have been better prior to the Prince trade than it actually was. The bench gets hurt though by losing Stuckey, but not by that much. Austin Daye and Khris Middleton I think could do just enough that the improved starting rotation might actually keep the team afloat. If I had to guess, I’d say the team has maybe 2 or 3 extra losses at the time of the trade, so that’s 15 or 16 wins right there. The trade obviously depletes them even further, so I have to assume by that point someone would be added to help out. Unfortunately, I don’t have a trade proposal that would definitely have happened so I’ll just assume it’s a D League call up who doesn’t do much. If I had to guess, I’d say the team would be somewhere around 20 wins instead of 28. If we get the Stuckey we saw all year instead of the better version we usually get when Stuckey is on ball most of the time, then drop that prediction to about 17 wins.

      • Apr 15, 201312:08 pm
        by Brandon Knight

        Reply

        Bro the Pistons are 0-8 without Knight! lol you are absolutely wrong. 

        • Apr 15, 20131:50 pm
          by Huddy

          Reply

          Bro Drummond was gone too.  The last 5 games Knight missed we lost…do you know what happened the 5 games before that while he was still playing? We lost.  The Pistons are 28-52…in other words besides those 8 games we lost without him, we have lost another 44 with him.  7 of our wins were on games for Knight where he scored less than 10 pts.  We manage to win games where he plays and shoots 18% for 7 points(Cavs)  or when he has 5 pts on 25% shooting(Raptors).  out of 80 games we couldn’t get 10?…there’s nothing absolutely wrong about that,

        • Apr 15, 20133:12 pm
          by tarsier

          Reply

          Your reasoning is like that of someone who sees a team start the year on a 6 game win streak and claims they will definitely break the 72-10 record. Ever heard of regression to the mean?

          • Apr 15, 20133:28 pm
            by Huddy

            Just about any team could win 10 games regardless of the loss of any one player.  To assume that we would not even get half as many wins as the worst team in the league without a player that averages 14 pts 4 assists and 3 TOs makes no sense.

          • Apr 15, 20134:43 pm
            by tarsier

            For sure. I think people underestimate how much parity there is in the league because the season goes on long enough to separate teams with only minor disparity. And the best of 7 format in the playoffs also does so fairly effectively.

  • Apr 15, 20133:07 am
    by gmehl

    Reply

    Ok i’ll go on record as saying that I want Joe to stay and Frank to be fired. Joe has made his mistakes of which there have been a lot of late but I have always maintained that he should be given one last go with the cap room we have coming up. If there is one guy ou there that won’t blow that money its Joe because he knows if he does it again his GM career in Detroit would be over. I have been very critical of all his bad moves like everyone else but I just feel deep down that he’s still the right guy to rebuild this team. People have this attitude towards Joe like he has done all those bad moves on purpose but at the end of the day everyone makes mistakes and its just wether you keep on making them that makes you a bad GM. I can easily see Joe going elsewhere and building a championship team there which is the last thing i’d like to see. If Joe was going to be fired in Gores reign then it should of been when he first bought the team because since he’s owned the team I don’t think Joe has done one bad move. Yes he had to give up a 1st rounder to do so which sucks but that could end up being a lateral depending on what is done with the upcoming cap space.

    • Apr 15, 20134:17 am
      by oats

      Reply

      Stuckey’s contract was signed after the sale of the team, and that contract was bad. He clearly overpaid for Stuckey. Prince was signed for too much money, or too long of a deal if that’s how you want to look at it, and that happened after the sale. Jonas Jerebko was also signed after the sale, and I feel like he overpaid for JJ since it didn’t seem like the team was really bidding against anyone.
       
      Besides those contracts, taking the no bad moves stance misses a key point. Gores didn’t feel like he knew basketball well enough to justify firing a guy with a good reputation in Dumars. He’s had a year to learn it more in depth, and with that information he’s probably also went back and reviewed Joe’s moves prior to the sale. Even if he hasn’t gone back over Joe’s record, he has to feel like he’s more capable of hiring a new GM than he was last year. Even without a new awful move since the sale, Gores has justification to can Dumars.

      • Apr 15, 201311:39 am
        by tarsier

        Reply

        I’d at least keep Dumars through the draft. He has a proven track record of doing well there. 

      • Apr 15, 201311:50 am
        by sebastian

        Reply

        Both, Stuckey and Jonas, are scheduled to earn $4.5 million in 2013-14. These are two very manageable contracts for two guys, who can be very productive for the Pistons, if placed in their proper positions/roles: Stuckey (Starting PG) and Jerebko (7th-man, SF/PF).

        • Apr 15, 20131:17 pm
          by tarsier

          Reply

          Stuckey only gets $4.5M if he is bought out. If they keep him, it’ll be at $8.5M.

          • Apr 15, 20134:58 pm
            by sebastian

            Thanks for the clarification on Stuckey’s contract. And, it is true that Jerebko could had been resigned for a little less than $4.5 million.
            So, I admit I was a little wrong with this particular analysis.

          • Apr 15, 20135:00 pm
            by sebastian

            However, I would like to add that it would be inane to pay Stuckey [buyout] to play elsewhere, like, Gores had done during the last two season with Rip in Chicago.

        • Apr 15, 20133:54 pm
          by oats

          Reply

          Not only what tarsier said, but you are missing out on why JJ is overpaid. It isn’t that he can’t pay up to that contract, it’s that he didn’t need to get that contract. I think we easily could have got him for $3 million a year, so Dumars overpaid by about 50%. JJ can play up to that $4.5 million, but he should have been on a contract he could exceed. He’s an energy guy that was coming off a knee injury, you can get that guy on a discount and Dumars didn’t.

  • Apr 15, 20136:15 am
    by Robb

    Reply

    Sure sounds like half our players will not returning and if thats the case then now is the perfect time to bring in not only new players to help our top 3 guys but also new GM and coches…

  • Apr 15, 20136:30 am
    by Blocks by Dre (Burke for the win!!)

    Reply

    Not to rain on the parade of any Knight homers on here but Will Bynum has been better than Knight this season…Knight has heart I’ll give him that but he’s been disappointing to me particularly because I had high hopes for the kid and his inconsistency is making those hopes go away more and more. Maybe he finally gets it his third year but since we are slipping in the draft each day Burke might end up being the best player available (if he’s still there) and I would absolutely have him run the show at point before throwing Knight back at the helm.

  • Apr 15, 20138:29 am
    by Andy Nong

    Reply

    So glad to hear that news firing both Joe Dumars and FL.  Both should go especially JD…!
    Detroit will be back on track if new GM and new coaches coming in.  Plus if new payers can be signed through free agent market Detroit will be bright and tough….! 

  • Apr 15, 20138:39 am
    by G

    Reply

    This would be retarded. If Gores was going to fire Joe D & Frank, he should’ve done it 10 games ago & let the season tank. This way the season ends on a high note with 3 or more wins, the lottery position gets worse, and then players get down about the firings.

    Plus whoever the new GM is will be behind the 8 ball as far as draft prep and free agency prep goes. I can easily see letting Frank go, but Dumars basically spent this season getting ready for this summer (which is why I find the current winning streak a little hard to swallow), firing him before the summer seems premature.  

    • Apr 15, 20138:48 am
      by Blocks by Dre (Burke for the win!!)

      Reply

      We’ve had players slip to us in the last 3 drafts for the 1st round, and in the second rounds its not like we found a diamond in the rough so letting go of Dumars wouldn’t be that big of a blow since he’s no guru in drafting talent these days.

      • Apr 15, 20138:49 am
        by Blocks by Dre (Burke for the win!!)

        Reply

        And one of those players (Knight) is showing that he slipped for a reason

      • Apr 15, 20138:51 am
        by G

        Reply

        I’m not saying don’t fire Dumars, I’m saying it would be stupid to do it now. It should’ve been done 10 games ago or else let next season play out. If he blows his cap space an the next version of Gordon & Villanueva, then fire him next February and let the team tank so it can keep the draft pick.

      • Apr 15, 201310:39 am
        by Huddy

        Reply

        Its true that the last few first round picks Joe has made came with a stroke of luck int he cases of Monroe and Drummond based on where they were projected, but idk why people hold that against Joe.  He didn’t have to make the toughest choice, but he still made the best one.  In reality he couldn’t have done better with the picks and he doesn’t have control over the luck that brought them to our pick so what more could he have done?  I would say getting Singler and Middleton in the 2nd round represents quality scouting for the draft.  There are a good number of examples of lapses in judgement by Joe so I don’t really think being lucky is a great argument against him.
         
        I think it is just too late to make a GM change.  It doesn’t seem like someone new would have the time to get fully into the team and have a great idea of what changes to make, not to mention if the new guy isn’t currently working he has not spent his entire year scouting rookies, outside talent for trades, or learning about the Piston players so they would be at a distinct disadvantage.

        • Apr 15, 201311:53 am
          by G

          Reply

          My main problem with the idea of firing Dumars right now is he’s been setting up for this summer. The trades he made, acquisitions made and not made, all getting ready for this summer. If Gores is going to fire him, it will be for bad decisions made in 2011 and before. If that’s the case & Gores decided he wasn’t a good GM over a year ago, why keep him on until now?

          I agree, now is a TERRIBLE time to switch up at GM for all the reasons you said. Even if you think Dumars should be fired (which I don’t… yet), I couldn’t imagine a worse time to do it.

    • Apr 15, 20131:03 pm
      by Merwin

      Reply

      “Retarded”?  Really?

      • Apr 15, 20132:39 pm
        by G

        Reply

        Sorry, I gotta work on my list of adjectives. I know it’s not PC, but I slip back into using it sometimes.

        • Apr 15, 20133:11 pm
          by Merwin

          Reply

          If you cared about someone with a disability, you wouldn’t have a hard time with it.  I appreciate the apology, but if you can make the well-reasoned arguments you make regularly, then you can do better.

          • Apr 15, 20133:16 pm
            by tarsier

            So here’s what I don’t get. people insist that it is offensive to use the word retarded to mean stupid or inane. But it is also offensive to refer to someone with a mental disability or handicap as retarded.

            Isn’t the problem associating those two? Shouldn’t we just pick one of them as the offensive one (the latter seems to have handily won out)? If we are no longer referring to those people as retarded, why is it offensive to refer to something or someone stupid as retarded?

          • Apr 15, 20133:36 pm
            by Merwin

            tarsier, logically, that’s a decent point.  The problem is, people with disabilities can still think and feel.  Many know that “retarded” is a word that refers to people like them now and in the past.  It is terribly hurtful to them and that pain can’t be separated from the word.  If that doesn’t bother you, then go ahead and use it.  But if you’re a person who cares about others, then it is very simple to just rule that word out of your vocabulary all together.
            Sorry.  I didn’t mean to hijack the thread.  I just expect more out of thinking people like G.  He apologized.  That’s enough for me.

  • Apr 15, 20138:55 am
    by vic

    Reply

    Firing Joe Dumars would be the dumbest thing. 
    The direction of the team has changed, they have a bunch of talent that has not been used correctly or made to play consistent.
    Knight at pg (wrong)
    Stuckey at sg (wrong)
    Drummond on the bench (wrong)
    Jerebko on the bench (wrong)
    Monroe at Center (wrong) when Drummond is on the bench. Monroe should have started the season at PF if thats what hes going to be.

    Now they finally have a true pg to resign, another top 10 draft pick, and cap space to fill a big roster hole… that’s the dumbest time ever to replace one of the few GMs that has ever built a championship team. 

    Just get a coach that can make good decisions with the pieces you’ve got.

    • Apr 15, 20139:05 am
      by gmehl

      Reply

      Yeah he has made his mistakes but if was going to be fired then now or the end of the season would be a silly time to do it. On that note I don’t actually believe it to be true that Joe will get fired but Frank I am not so sure about. I think Frank is gone and Joe is safe.

    • Apr 15, 20139:05 am
      by vic

      Reply

      Joe’s strength is acquiring talent.
      His weakness is finding coaches that can operate the talent ( but this weakness has been amplified by ownership… Carlisle was fired by ownership, Brown was fired by ownership, Frank was chosen by ownership).

      If I’m Gores I don’t fire a guy who’s about to have a summer of major talent aqcuisition, if that’s his greatest skill.
      I let him get the talent and work with him to find a better coach that can operate and maximize that talent. 

      • Apr 15, 20139:54 am
        by gmehl

        Reply

        Looks like its just you and me that feel this way Vic and I’ll assume that Patrick and Dan are with us as well.

        • Apr 15, 201311:37 am
          by vic

          Reply

          Hopefully Gores is with us too!
           

          • Apr 15, 201312:01 pm
            by vic

            When you have enough talent to win when the other coaches don’t want to win (end of season), but just happen to lose the majority of games when other coaches want to win the most (beginning of season, and when playoff positioning is being decided), its obviously a coaching issue.

          • Apr 15, 20133:17 pm
            by tarsier

            I doubt any coaches are trying to lose. GMs might want to lose, but not usually coaches.

      • Apr 15, 20133:59 pm
        by oats

        Reply

        @vic. Dumars has a strength in drafting and making trades, but a weakness in free agency. We have a lot of cap space coming up.

  • Apr 15, 20139:41 am
    by Matt

    Reply

    I disagree that firing Joe D right now would be a terrible move. Standing pat this season and holding the cap space for next year’s free agency would by no means be a mistake. This year’s free agent group stinks, next year’s rocks, and tanking next season could potentially mean keeping next year’s draft pick to boot. Makes sense to me to thank Joe D for getting the new core in place and then bringing in fresh eyes to finish the rebuild during a more promising season.

  • Apr 15, 20139:58 am
    by I HATE FRANK

    Reply

    First Rebuilding cycle he delivers a Title, and 6 years as an Elite Team … 2nd Rebuilding cycle he fails…. Give the man one last chance…

    But please Fire Frank

    • Apr 15, 201310:17 am
      by gmehl

      Reply

      I don’t think people get that things could  actually get even worse than they already are if we were to bring in a new GM. A lot of people seem to think that a new GM will just mosey on in here and just wave his magic wand and eradicate all the bad that has happened. Could another person come in here and do a better job than Joe? Maybe but the chances of getting that guy would be slim. Replacing Frank on the other hand is a must and the only reason you keep him around another season is if you want to keep our 2014 draft pick by finishing bottom 8.

      • Apr 15, 201310:47 am
        by I HATE FRANK

        Reply

        Last 3 years have been Good drafts for Joe

        Moose A-
        Knight C-
        Drummond A+

        so i trust Joe as long as the pick isnt a top 3 pick…

        His biggest problem is his heart, and loyalty. He was Loyal to players like Rip, Prince, and even Stuckey. But when he is forced to make the tough decision he does. Now that his job and lively hood is on the line. He may think more like a GM than a best friend.

        I can honestly see him trading BK or Moose, and that fine. Because GM’s have to have vision not tunnel vision

  • Apr 15, 201310:47 am
    by Wolverines23

    Reply

     Don’t really care if both were fired.   More importantly  what if we spoke with OKC  regarding  their pick from Toronto in this year’s draft.. and told them you need another scorer off your bench… and what if we offered Will Bynum, Rodney Stuckey, or Jonas Jerebko. OKC needs some more fire power besides Kevin Martin..and Bynum, Stuckey, and Jonas have shown late in the season that they can provide that energy and score in bunches. If we got that pick and managed to lose the last two games that would most likely leave us with the 5th pick and around the 8th or 9th pick. That way we have a shot at Oladipo for sure at 5..and if Trey falls either him, MCW, Shabazz, or someone else. Best case scenairo would be if Otto Porter falls to 5..and we get Trey at 8. But if Cavs have the 4th pick I dont see tha likely. Although this is a weak draft there is talent late in this draft.

    • Apr 15, 201312:11 pm
      by tarsier

      Reply

      It’d be real tough to get the 5th pick. NO would have to win their last game vs Dallas. Detroit would have to lose both of their remaining games vs Philly and Brooklyn. Detroit would have to win the coin flip over NO. If Sacramento loses their two remaining vs the Thunder and Clippers, Detroit would have to beat Sacramento in the coin flip too. AND, after all that, the lottery would have to play out so that nobody lower than 4th gets a top 3 pick.

      Ending up with the 5th overall pick is probably less likely than any other pick in the top 9 except for the 4th overall (which is impossible).

    • Apr 15, 20134:04 pm
      by oats

      Reply

      Those guys you listed aren’t worth the 9th pick. I don’t think they get you the 29th pick. We also can’t offer Bynum, he’s a free agent. Knight might get the 9th pick though.

  • Apr 15, 201311:53 am
    by tarsier

    Reply

    I think a brilliant move, assuming the Pistons end up drafting around 7 in Burke/Oladipo range, would be to flip Monroe for Porter. I actually really like Monroe, but this could help on so many levels: 

    1) It clears off the huge raise owed Monroe after next season. That means that if no blue chip FAs were attained, a lot of cap space could be deferred to next summer (preferably still in the form of role players with big signing bonuses and tiny annual salaries).

    2) It moves the greatest position of need for the Pistons from the wing to another big man, which is what most of the desirable FAs are. Suddenly Millsap, Smith, and Jefferson become great FA targets. And if the Bulls do amnesty Boozer as has been sometimes rumored, the Pistons could be well of putting in a bid for his services.

    3) Adding three seasons of rookie scale contract to a core building block is absolutely huge. There is the chance of loss of some talent. But I don’t think it is that high. Porter obviously isn’t the rebounder Monroe is. But I am doubting Monroe will ever be a plus defensive guy. Porter is a very good defender.

    I don’t know who would be drafting 2nd-4th where Porter is likely to go, but odds are that one of the teams there will want a big man but find Noel already off the board and no great Center prospects remaining.

    The rotation next season could be:
    G: Burke/Oladipo, Knight, Stuckey, mediocre FA like Brewer/Calderon
    F: Porter, excellent FA like Smith/Millsap/Jefferson, Jerebko
    C: Drummond, Slava, if the excellent FA is not Jefferson (or Howard), another guy may need to be acquired or else play a lot of small ball

    • Apr 15, 201312:15 pm
      by tarsier

      Reply

      Well, potentially brilliant. Ballsy at least. And displaying some sort of a gameplan (whether it works or not), something Dumars has not displayed since the the Iverson/Gordon/Villanueva catastrophe.

    • Apr 15, 20132:02 pm
      by Huddy

      Reply

      I am a Monroe fan, but I see the logic in where you are going with that.  I think the biggest obstacle is in the willingness of the team that drafts porter to trade for Monroe knowing they will have to sign him to a big contract when those other guys you mention the Pistons could focus on are available in FA anyway.  The Cavs are a likely landing point for Porter and they have Varjao/Thompson so SF is a greater need as well as retaining financial flexibility.  Anyone else like Phoenix for example would be giving away cheap young talent for Monroe when they could spend the same money on someone like Josh Smith, Milsap, Jefferson, Boozer, etc. and keep their pick.
       
      It makes sense for the Pistons in a lot of ways, but I just don’t see how a trade partner could justify that move for a year less on a big contract as opposed to this years FAs. 

      • Apr 15, 20133:26 pm
        by tarsier

        Reply

        I don’t know if just anyone would agree to it. But someone like Phoenix would be a perfect fit. They need a good big man. And they want young talent. Monroe is that. Smith, Jefferson, and Millsap are not.

        Yes, they’d be giving up a couple years cheap talent, but the payout is pretty nice. A much better fit for their roster (talent at a position of need–and a position that can be hard to come by, there are a lot of good PFs but not a lot of good Cs in the league). And they’d be shipping out a nice prospect for a sure thing. Who knows exactly how good Monroe will be, but he is a lot safer than Porter right now.

        This is a deal that both sides would probably have to think long and hard about, which means it probably wouldn’t happen. But it is at least plausible. I just can’t imagine anyone giving up Burke or Oladipo for Knight at this point.

      • Apr 15, 20135:18 pm
        by oats

        Reply

        Cleveland has to see Verajao as potentially expendable, and next year’s draft is loaded on wing players. It makes sense to trade Porter for a center. Their concern would be more on is a Monroe/Thompson front court a good pairing than which position is a bigger need. Still, considering Monroe is better than Porter, I think it’s a safe bet that they would do it. I think Detroit shouldn’t though.

    • Apr 15, 20134:07 pm
      by oats

      Reply

      I’m not fond enough of Porter for that to make sense. He has the potential to catch up to Monroe, but he is much farther from reaching his ceiling than Monroe is. I just think the team needs to do better in a Monroe trade than a rookie in this class. It’s just not a good value move.

      • Apr 15, 20134:59 pm
        by tarsier

        Reply

        You have to give something up to get something. I don’t know if the move would pay off long-term, but it opens up a lot of opportunities. I would rather have Drummond, Smith/Millsap/Jefferson, and Porter than Drummond, Monroe, and Smith/Millsap/Jefferson. If Paul George were on the market, I’d target him, but he’s not. 

        • Apr 15, 20135:15 pm
          by oats

          Reply

          The team is not likely to be a contender until Drummond hits his peak, and players don’t even start to do that until about 24. 5 years from now those free agent guys will be 32, and their windows will be getting ready to close while the team should have it’s window opening. Monroe and Porter will both be peaking, but I’d rather have Monroe than Porter. I’d rather have Monroe/Drummond/unknown small forward than Porter/Drummond/older power forward on the market this year. That’s exactly what I’d propose, that the team gets a short term stop gap at small forward instead of one of those older PFs, so that comparison is really unfair.
           

  • Apr 15, 201312:10 pm
    by piston moribund

    Reply

    If Dumars was let go, who would replace him.  There is no questions that Frank has done an awful job, Joe’s job has been a bit more complicated.  He has been very good at drafting player and recognizing talent and dumping it when he has had a chance.  Hind sight is 20/20 and we can all say that Dre and Bullwinkle were obvious talents now, but at the time, there was a reason these players slipped and stating that those were the obvious choices just helps to cement the fact that Joe has done a very good job of drafting player.  He seems to be at least smarter then the GM and coaches drafting before him.  If those players didn’t pan out, then that decision would be much more obvious. 
    Lets also consider that to be fair, Joe tried to make changes but were presumably strapped by the pending sale of the team at the time.  There were moves on the table and I am sure we are all not privy to the complete picture but to be fair, Joe has been consistent in trying to atone for his mistakes in the past.  Picks like White, Cleaves, and others were quickly shipped out as soon as it was obvious that these were not going to pan out.  It was also reported that a number of player were on the blocks during the Karen era but were nixed because of the pending sale.
    But since the sale, Joe has made a number of trades that arguably could be good.  He got rid of Tay after he signed him to a bad deal.  He was finally able to dump BG and buy out Rip.  Moves that were impossible during the Karen era.  His draft record is something that no one ca argue with.
    As with any team, there are going to be good moves and bad moves.  I would say that drafting players and swing trades as definitely his strong suits.  He hired Brown in favor of Rick and got a championship as a result.  Since then, his coaching moves have been awful.  He tried to hire Collins but was rejected and we all know what happened to Avery.
    He now has all the tools at his disposal and while it may have taken a while to get here, at least the team has arrived at a rather pivotal point.  He has the draft picks(in a really marginal quality draft), the money, and key players to make an impact for next season.  Rodney has an only 4mil guaranteed contract for next year, which was a good move.  Charlie is on his last year and could be traded next year for a better player from teams looking to avoid the tax.
    The main problem as with all teams is the coaching.  It wont matter who is the GM or how many all stars you have if you dont have the right coaching.  The team has been purged and the rebuilding has began in earnest.  If we had a new coach and a new GM, then we can count on living in the basement for a few more years.  Finding a coach who is at least decent is much easier then finding a respectable GM with experience and balls.  We are talking about someone who almost traded for Kobe.  At this point, it would seem prudent to continue the process rather then starting over, AGAIN.  Paitience, only two more years to go before the seven year cycle if up.  Then I can change my tag.  Yeah!!!!

    • Apr 15, 201312:33 pm
      by tarsier

      Reply

      He was able to dump BG, but you can dump one year of almost any contract if you are willing to attach a nice draft pick. Unless he strikes it big in FA this offseason, that was a bad move.

      • Apr 15, 20137:05 pm
        by piston moribund

        Reply

        Its actually a couple of years.  But it also freed up room for BK, and Kyle to play.  Never mind about the money freed up and getting a more balanced roster.  He did the same thing with Tay, freeing up room and balancing the roster a bit more.  Its true that he created all this drama for himself but he kind of had a plan that didnt work.  I would rather a GM go balls out and swing for the fences.  No risk, no reward.  This team is becoming more and more watchable.  I only want two things for next year, Bullwinkle to play some D and a coach.  FA and the draft this year is not going to make that much of a difference.  

  • Apr 15, 201312:25 pm
    by Aruna

    Reply

    The only way I see this happening is if Gores is hiring a brand name coach who also wants to have final say on personnel decisions.  Say a Jerry Sloan or Stan Van Gundy.  With both having largely left their last jobs due to feuding with players, it would make sense that this type of situation would be something they were looking for in their next jobs.

    . . . or it could also be an agent trying to create a market for general managers.

  • Apr 15, 201312:34 pm
    by Wolverines23

    Reply

    ^I like that idea, but I think Monroe is much more valuable then Brandon Knight at this point, and personally I’m comfortable with trying out Monroe/Drummond next season and for the next few seasons. If anything I’d give up Brandon Knight, and get Trey Burke out of it and Oladipo/or Porter. But two draft picks would be interesting to me. I don’t think the Cavs would do this, but if we offered Knight to them (pitching him as a SG, to pair with Irving) for their 4th pick (or higher), we could get a combination of Porter/Oladipo, Porter/Burke, or Oladipo/Burke. 

    Obviously all of this talk is very unlikely, I just hope it’s considered by Detroit, because it sends out the message that we want to win now as well as add talented young pieces to the team for the future. However, an axing of Knight, Monroe, or Drummond would be extremely harsh considering how young they are and how much more better they will get. If anything, the Pistons need to get rid of Charlie V and not resign Will Bynum (love him, but he’s gotta go), Jason Maxiell (love his energy, but we need to move on, I don’t mind him coming off the bench..but why not move on, rather keep Jonas), and try to come up with a solution for Rodney Stuckey (my vote, trade him). Adding one young piece like Oladipo or Burke would help a lot. I’m still unsure about Calderon as everyone is. He’s definitely one of the best players on this current roster, and I have a lot of respect for him and his ability to run the point, but I just don’t see the point of resigning him, unless we want to continue to not make the playoffs and be a lottery team. Not saying that we don’t win with him, I just don’t like the lineup with him and Knight in the backcourt, and don’t see that as our future backcourt. I also hope that Calderon (who is towards the end of his career) finds a team that gives him a chance to compete and win a championship (he hasn’t made that as his priority, but who doesn’t want to win). 

    Whatever happens, more then anything Pistons need clarity on this team. As Vic pointed out earlier, you can’t brainwash players to play the wrong position. If we are committed to Knight as PG, then he plays the 1, you don’t change him mid-way into the season (as you did with Stuckey when Knight was drafted). Next season, if he’s our starting SG, or first guard off the bench, then he needs to play only that position. Monroe needs to play the 4. If Stuckey is around, he’s Will Bynum off the bench. Both him and Bynum cannot be here together (there really the same players with different sizes). Kyle Singler should come off the bench! If we don’t get Porter, I’d rather see Jonas start the 3 the way he’s playing and shooting this current moment. If we use our money to get a FA 3, then great! But with more clarity, a new young player from the draft, possible new coach, and one or two free agents, the Pistons should easily be a better team and make the playoffs with the talent of Monroe/Drummond and Knight playing to their potential. DRAFT BURKE!

    • Apr 15, 201312:50 pm
      by G

      Reply

      Cleveland JUST drafted Waiters, I doubt they’d give up on him at SG just yet. He looks like a player.

    • Apr 15, 20131:05 pm
      by tarsier

      Reply

      Monroe definitely is much more valuable than Knight. I doubt you could trade Knight for a top 10 pick. Monroe for a very high pick does seem like a reasonable trade starting point.

      If someone could get Burke or Oladipo, why would they give that away for Knight? 

  • Apr 15, 201312:37 pm
    by Wolverines23

    Reply

    I was referring to Tarsier’s post about flipping Monroe^

  • Apr 15, 201312:56 pm
    by Wolverines23

    Reply

    That’s true…I forgot about that. Ps- isn’t he Stuckey 2.0 lol?

  • Apr 15, 201310:49 pm
    by Otis

    Reply

    This wold be GLORIOUS news. I’m not holding my breath, and something tells me Gores will give Dumars three full years, because of conventional wisdom (assuming Mr. Gores was generous enough to give the man a clean slate under his ownership) even though Joe initiated this “rebuild” five full years ago and has accomplished literally nothing since, outside of making easy draft selections. The excuse that his hands were tied under Karen D vanished when the handcuffs were off and he still couldn’t do anything with the roster. Even though the damage is essentially done, I wouldn’t give Joe the chance to crew things up any further. The Gordon trade was the last nail in the coffin for me, given that Joe bet on this team being solidly in the playoffs and on such a good trajectory as to be able to afford losing a first round pick by the time we had to give it up, and I don’t think any reasonable projection puts us there. We’re probably going to lose a very valuable pick, and we’d probably have been better off with cap space next offseason anyways. The man is a disaster. He’ll land on his feet somewhere and probably do a PHENOMENAL job, because that’s how these things work, but I would take this relatively clean slate and hand it to pretty much anyone else.

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