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Knight, Pistons snap 18-game losing streak to Bulls in 99-85 win

Chicago Bulls 85 Final

Recap | Box Score

99 Detroit Pistons
Greg Monroe, C 32 MIN | 5-11 FG | 1-2 FT | 7 REB | 7 AST | 0 STL | 0 BLK | 2 TO | 11 PTS | +2He came sneakily close to a triple-double with seven rebounds and seven assists to go with 11 points, but he quietly played a good game. He and Drummond weren’t great on defense, a rusty Joakim Noah and an active Carlos Boozer carved them up, but both teamed well on the boards and within the offense.
Andre Drummond, C 20 MIN | 1-2 FG | 1-2 FT | 10 REB | 0 AST | 1 STL | 0 BLK | 1 TO | 3 PTS | -3He’s still awesome, still über-athletic, but also still a 19-year-old rookie with 56 career games. Foul trouble plagued his minutes more than the minutes limit did, but in those minutes he was a force on the glass. Drummond, Monroe and Jerebko’s play on the boards has been a huge reason for the Pistons’ success the last four games.
Brandon Knight, PG 37 MIN | 7-12 FG | 5-7 FT | 2 REB | 5 AST | 0 STL | 0 BLK | 3 TO | 20 PTS | +10Was there anything better than seeing Knight not only frustrate Nate Robinson defensively, but also take it right at him on offense, too? Tonight was a night where, quite frankly, Knight looked like he knew what he wanted to do on offense. The switch from point guard to shooting guard is mainly a mentality thing, and tonight he had a confident scorer’s mentality — something he struggles with, at times.
Rodney Stuckey, PG 36 MIN | 5-12 FG | 3-3 FT | 2 REB | 5 AST | 1 STL | 0 BLK | 2 TO | 14 PTS | +7Stuckey continued his strong end of season surge, this time in a supplementary role. Last time around in Chicago, he was the Pistons only scoring option for most of the game, but tonight he found a way to facilitate and score while taking a backseat to Knight.
Kyle Singler, SG 21 MIN | 3-6 FG | 0-0 FT | 1 REB | 0 AST | 1 STL | 1 BLK | 0 TO | 8 PTS | -2Jonas Jerebko’s strong night cut into Singler’s playing time, but when he was out there, he played under control. That’s kind of his thing: even when things go wrong, Singler seems to always keep his composure. It’s nice to see from a rookie.
Jonas Jerebko, PF 27 MIN | 7-8 FG | 2-2 FT | 9 REB | 0 AST | 1 STL | 0 BLK | 2 TO | 17 PTS | +16This is the Jerebko that had people excited during his rookie season. He was efficient, he was active and killed it on the boards. I once had a basketball coach once who said that he loved guys with dirty knees because they weren’t afraid to get on the floor and make a play — that’s the kind of rebounding, effort player Jerebko has, and can, thrive as.
Charlie Villanueva, PF 15 MIN | 5-11 FG | 0-0 FT | 4 REB | 1 AST | 0 STL | 1 BLK | 1 TO | 12 PTS | +11:Cue fans viciously slandering Charlie V and the Pistons because he played well in a Pistons win, ruining the team’s attempt to tank for a top-4 pick that may or may not be any better than a top-6 pick:
Khris Middleton, SF 33 MIN | 4-7 FG | 0-0 FT | 3 REB | 2 AST | 2 STL | 0 BLK | 0 TO | 10 PTS | +19This guy may be better than we thought. It took him ¾ of the season — and Lawrence Frank’s extended leave — to work his way into the rotation, but he’s been surprisingly solid since. In his last handful of games, he’s been good for eight points and three boards on 13-for-21 shooting. Everyone loves Kim English, but Khris Middleton is the one you should love to see on the floor.
Viacheslav Kravtsov, C 1 MIN | 0-0 FG | 0-0 FT | 0 REB | 0 AST | 0 STL | 0 BLK | 0 TO | 0 PTS | +1“Good job, good effort!”
Will Bynum, PG 17 MIN | 2-4 FG | 0-1 FT | 2 REB | 5 AST | 0 STL | 0 BLK | 2 TO | 4 PTS | +8There are two vastly different forms of Will Bynum, Good Will and Bad Will. Good Will, the one who scores from a variety of angles and throws a million successful alley-oops, is one of the most entertaining players in the NBA. Bad Will, shoots way too much and turns it over more than he makes a shot, is one of the least. Tonight, you got a bit of both.
Kim English, SG 1 MIN | 0-0 FG | 0-0 FT | 0 REB | 0 AST | 0 STL | 0 BLK | 0 TO | 0 PTS | +1“I AM THE HUMAN VICTORY CIGAR! SEE YA LATER LOSING STREAK TO THE BULLS,” said Kim English, I think.
Lawrence FrankThe Pistons offense was clicking without Jose Calderon and part of that is a credit to Frank. He still has to find a way to get Brandon Knight more comfortable moving without the ball, but he rode the bench in the second quarter to some success and appeared to have Monroe working to get the ball to cutters — which led to his seven assists. It’s been a rough year from Frank, but in the last five games, he’s really done a solid job.

150 Comments

  • Apr 7, 201311:17 pm
    by Mark

    Reply

    Great game. Pistons are still yet to be outrebounded as a team in the Drummond Era (since he became starter).

  • Apr 8, 201312:32 am
    by Cliff

    Reply

    man drummond got absolutely crooked tonight by the refs with all those bs late calls

  • Apr 8, 201312:35 am
    by gmehl

    Reply

    Is anyone else apart from myself angry that we managed to win this game?? Yes I am glad we played well but the ramifications of this win could end up costing us a realistic chance at a top 5 pick. After todays games the standings in reverse order look like this:
    18-59 Charlotte
    19-59 Orlando
    23-54 Phoenix
    24-52 Cleveland
    26-52 Detroit
    27-50 Orleans
    27-50 Sacramento
    29-48 Toronto
    29-48 Washington
    29-47 Minnesota
    31-45 Philadelphia
    If we actually lost todays game against Chicago then Cleveland would’ve only been 1 game from us and we play them next. With New Orleans winning today we could’ve sealed our odds for a top 5 pick. The best way to get off the tank train is to tank as hard as you can for one season and then hope that the odds play out like they should. I don’t like hoping for losses but i think a lot of people around here need to wake up and realize that tonight we really missed an big opportunity to help this franchise by winning yes you guessed it…a meaningless game. Anyone that disagrees with me can call me on draft night when we are choosing between Alex Len and Miles Plumee.
     

    • Apr 8, 20131:19 am
      by oats

      Reply

      Len and Plumlee is about pick 12 for Detroit, maybe later. You are overselling your argument here. Detroit is still most likely in the 5-8 range. There will still be talent in that range. The higher pick comes with the ability to choose the guy that fits the team best instead of just who is left, but there will be a decent player left at that spot. It also means we won’t have to pray for incompetence ahead of Detroit so they don’t get stuck with the guy who is actually the 8th best player at the 8th pick. I’m rooting for losses too, but thankfully the team has to win an awful lot to get in Alex Len range.

      • Apr 8, 20131:38 am
        by gmehl

        Reply

        I was trying to be melodramatic by mentioning those 2 guys but you get my point. I know there isn’t a clear cut #1 pick but i’d much rather us have the choice between pick 1 and 5 rather than settling for a choice between pick 6 to 9. After the season that we have had to endure as fans I feel like its our only silver lining to such a crappy season. If we beat Cleveland and Charlotte then the last 2 games against Philly and Brooklyn are must lose IMO.

        I bet if actually there was a clear cut #1 pick ala LeBron James then I am sure there would be a lot more angry people apart from myself.

        • Apr 8, 20132:14 am
          by oats

          Reply

          I’d already conceded a top 3 spot was unlikely, so right now I’m hoping for top 6. The 6th spot has a 21.5% chance of getting a top 3 pick, which is still a reasonable hope. The 7th drops to 15%, and 8th drops to 10%. By that point the odds there are just getting a bit too slim. I didn’t think 4th was a likely scenario anyways, and the team still looks more likely to be in the 5th or 6th spot than not. So this win doesn’t really change my outlook for the team that much. Besides, I think the drop off from 2 to about 9 just isn’t that steep in this draft. What’s more, I’ve got Marcus Smart at 7 but the consensus seems to have him as a top 3 guy and that could easily push someone I like more than him on down the line. Cody Zeller could also end up pushing guys down. It’s just hard to get that worked up this year. Last year when I thought Drummond was clearly in the top 6 I was upset about slipping because it was to a spot where I was less fond of the talent. This year I’m just not seeing the talent falling off by sliding back so I’m fine.
           
          By the way, I think Noel is the best talent. I started going back over his games and he is just really good. It’s a little like Kyrie Irving, the fact that we haven’t seen him in so long makes it easy to forget just how good he was. I know I forgot. I’m not quite as bullish on him as I was on Kyrie, but I do think Noel is just a better prospect than everyone else. He’s not a great fit in Detroit though, which is a weird situation to be in. I think I’d want to trade down if Detroit was in a spot to get him, but if a good trade doesn’t come up I’d take him and figure out what to do later.

    • Apr 8, 201310:17 am
      by tarsier

      Reply

      The realistic range the Pistons could end up in prior to the lottery drawing is 3-7. Odds are they were going to land at 5 with a win or loss last night. A loss would be better, but it’s tough to complain that Detroit hasn’t been losing enough this season.

  • Apr 8, 201312:36 am
    by Trent

    Reply

    Ok I’m going to make a few bold predictions here. 

    Andre Drummond will be a 15 & 10 guy next year. And the Pistons will finish the regular season in 6th place in the East.

    Firstly, Dre already is that guy if he gets the minutes but combine a strong offseason and some more conditioning with an extra 15mins per game and we have an All-NBA centre at age 20. He has all the tools, he is progressing at a rate that few thought he would and he is going to bring us back to the playoffs.

    And finishing 6th. I see the teams above us currently (Bos, Atl, Mil, Phi, Tor, Was) as teams that we should be able to surpass with our current roster situation. We have great young talent, especially in our bigs, cap space and another top 10 pick this year. There is no excuse. It is 2013-14 playoffs or bust. If Joe D and Frank can’t move us in to a competitive playoff team with all of those factors they both should receive their marching orders. Everything is lining up perfectly for this franchise to be turned around and now it’s time to do it!
     

    • Apr 8, 20131:19 am
      by Vince

      Reply

      Ooooh I love doing these, my turn.

      Greg Monroe will average 17 & 10 next season
      Andre Drummond will average 12 pts 12 reb and 2 blks pg
      Jonas Jerebko will average 11 & 7 in a bounceback season

      Pistons will finish 38-44, clinch the 8th spot in the Eastern Conference and lose to the Miami Heat in five games.  

    • Apr 8, 20131:30 am
      by oats

      Reply

      Andre at 15 and 10 doesn’t feel that bold to me. I feel pretty safe predicting him to put up a 12 and 12 in a little over 30 minutes next year. That’s what his per 36 numbers right now project him at if he extends to about 32 minutes, or roughly the amount of minutes Monroe is playing. You’re basically projecting his scoring to go up a little bit by playing with the starters, but Monroe to cut in to his rebounding. That’s still sounds like a reasonably safe bet as opposed to bold. A bold prediction would call for a significant leap over just extending his current productivity. You know what would be bold? Projecting him to hit 50% of his free throws would be bold.

      • Apr 8, 20132:40 am
        by steve-o

        Reply

        I hope they can work on Dre and hist shooting touch in the off-season. I know a lot of big guys don’t shoot the ball well… but 34% from the charity stripe is worse than a lot of middle-schoolers. 
        He’s gonna dominate on glass/put-backs and a few dunks (15 and 10 sounds reasonable). But homie needs to learn to knock down some free-throws and get some touch off of the glass from the block. I really think he has the potential to be the “Next Howard” (without the superstar drama/head-games because he didn’t come in as a “Next Shaq”).

      • Apr 8, 20138:54 am
        by Jopl

        Reply

        I like the prediction of 12 & 12.  I’m going to step it up and say Drummond gets 3ish blocks a game and challenges Iblocka & LARRY SANDERS for the most blocks of the season.

    • Apr 8, 201310:19 am
      by tarsier

      Reply

      Bold predictions are tough when we have no idea who they’ll be getting in the draft or free agency. The identities of those acquisitions could make for a 15 game swing.

  • Apr 8, 20131:27 am
    by Otis

    Reply

    Ok, so the Pistons start off the game with our twin towers going up against a Bulls team missing their entire starting perimeter and quickly dig a double-digit hole. Then they split Monroe and Drummond up and leave just Monroe in and– by gosh– the floor opens up, the Pistons go on a roll, and take pretty firm control of the game. Well I’ll be darned! We’ve been in some close games and those two never finish them out. I just feel like there’s this pattern that everyone is afraid to face…
     
    Don’t kill me, but… maybe these guys just aren’t a good fit.

    • Apr 8, 20131:38 am
      by oats

      Reply

      I still think it’s far to early to come to this conclusion. The early returns aren’t great, but they have only had a handful of games together. They also happen to be super young. It makes sense that they would take more than the handful of games left in the season to figure out how to play together, and if Monroe develops a jump shot things will pretty much solve themselves. For that matter, if Drummond gets to the point where he can make Chicago pay for putting Carlos Boozer on him then things will look much better too. They are 22 and 19 and have all of 5 games playing together. This is way too early to make that kind of call on them.
       

      • Apr 8, 20131:52 am
        by gmehl

        Reply

        There are too many holes in the team to properly assess Monroe and Drummond as a tandem atm. We need to add some shooters around them at SG and SF which can competently guard the opposite SG/SF respectively. Until you surround Moose and Dre with those two things I think any judgement as of today will be inconclusive. I think waiting for Moose to start hitting that jump shot will be like scraping your fingers up against a chalk board. Monroe needs to understand that he has to keep on taking it if he is ever going to get better at it and a lot of time if he misses Dre will be there to clean up the rebound.

        • Apr 8, 20132:32 am
          by oats

          Reply

          Right. Especially with Calderon out. Tonight the team started Stuckey at point guard, which gives the team a guy on the perimeter that just can’t shoot. What’s more, Stuckey and Knight are awful at running the pick and roll so it’s hard to figure out what Drummond can do on offense in that situation. The team just didn’t remotely look like what a team with Monroe and Drummond in the front court should look like.
           
          More than anything I think the problem with calling them a bad fit is that we are really early in their development as individual players, and even more so in their development as a tandem. I ended up just leaving it at that because I wanted to leave the focus on the big picture problem with that conclusion as opposed to a more narrow look at the roster problems.
           
          As for Monroe’s jump shot, I’m not expecting it next year or anything. Still, he shoots pretty well at the line so it is reasonable to think he can start hitting shots from the elbow. It’s a common enough for players to extend their range relative to where they started that I’m just not ready to decide he won’t ever hit it. I don’t even think he needs much more than a 5% jump for it to open up the offense considerably.

        • Apr 8, 201312:32 pm
          by Otis

          Reply

          @gmehl: So if you were GM, would you take the chance and use all our flexibility this summer to put SG and SF around them and ride it out and hope they develop into a superior frontcourt? What if you end up being wrong, and they’re still not a good fit? Then you’ve possibly set your franchise back another five years and have to rebuild on the fly AGAIN…
           
          If these two big dudes looked promising AT ALL together, I might be able to see the logic in that, but they look truly awful.

          • Apr 8, 201312:48 pm
            by tarsier

            Or, at that point, you trade one out to another team for a better fitting big. In the meantime, you play them predominantly not together in order to boost your winning and their trade values.

          • Apr 8, 20135:27 pm
            by gmehl

            @Otis – If the right pieces present themselves at SG and SF then yes you go all out and sign/draft them. Realistically we are not really committed financially yet to either Monroe or Drummond because both are still on their rookie deals with Monroe’s coming up after next season. If we could get some good fits at SG/SF within that time then it gives us I feel plenty of time to see if the 2 of them fit together and even if they don’t then both are valuable in their own way you’d be able to offload either one for a better fit. I am not too worried about the 2 of them fitting together as much as I am about who Dumars can put beside them at SG/SF. I guess this is why I am so angry we won yesterday’s game against Chicago because I want us to draft either Porter (SF) or Oladipo (SG) as I feel both would be great fits in either position. Will either guy become a superstar? Probably not but I just think we need to keep adding talent and both guys have that and both of them are 2 way players which is another thing we are lacking. Those 2 guys IMO have Detroit Piston written all over them even if a guy like McLemore will ends up becoming the next Ray Allen multiple all star.

          • Apr 8, 20135:33 pm
            by oats

            @Otis. I almost forgot, the perimeter guys you put around Monroe and Drummond are going to still be useful to put around either Monroe or Drummond. This isn’t back tracking the team significantly. You are just filling out the wing players while hoping the two bigs develop together. If they don’t, then do what tarsier says and trade one of them for a better fitting big later. This isn’t building in the wrong direction, the team will need some shooters, decent perimeter defenders, and a point guard who can run a pick and roll whether we keep both big guys or just one of them.

          • Apr 9, 201312:53 am
            by Otis

            @tarsler: I think it would be a lot harder to find a trade for Monroe if you’re bringing back another big. I just don’t see that happening nearly as easily. I’m guessing a team that wants Monroe doesn’t already have a PF who’s worth trading for, who can spread the floor or is a beast in the low post, etc. Far more likely we find a trade partner who needs something to build around up front and has a surplus on the perimeter.

          • Apr 9, 201312:58 am
            by Otis

            @oats: Like I told tarsler, it’s just much more likely that your ideal trade partner for Monroe is someone with surplus perimeter depth and a need up front. It’s very hard to imagine a trade scenario where we trade Monroe for a power forward who can spread the floor. Probably smarter to use him to get that SG/SF action you want so bad and go after a PF in free agency.
             
            It really, really does matter how these things play out. I think you guys are being way too casual about this. You have a chance this summer to go position-by-position and pick what pieces you want in place, but you’re starting off by banking on a pairing that’s never looked very good anywhere other than on paper.

          • Apr 9, 20132:33 am
            by oats

            They also haven’t looked bad for more than a token number of minutes together, which doesn’t really tell us more than the paper projections. The team around them stinks and hampers the ability to properly judge them, and they just haven’t had any time to figure out how to make things work. Plus, they are really early in their development as individual players. I’m most definitely not being too casual about this, I just don’t see a scenario where trading Monroe gives a good enough return to justify giving up on a pair of players as talented as Drummond and Monroe. I covered that more in depth a bit later though.

      • Apr 8, 201312:29 pm
        by Otis

        Reply

        @oats: My quick answer is that YES it’s a shame that the Pistons wastes so much time without letting them play together. We were all screaming for it to happen. But it didn’t. And this summer is our chance to reshape the roster, so are we going to spend all our resources on building around these two guys who don’t look like a good fit?
         
        I’m not saying they’ll NEVER be able to play together, but I don’t think it’s a good bet. I think it’s much safer to guess based on a small sample size that they’re a bad fit and adjust before we spend all this summer’s flexibility trying to build around them.

        • Apr 8, 20132:24 pm
          by vic

          Reply

          Nah… you don’t trade your most valuable resources… you maximize them.

          Put 3 shooters around them and they’ll fit.

          Calderon/Nate Wolters
          Knight/Singler 
          Otto Porter/Middleton

          1 summer and your done. 

        • Apr 8, 20134:42 pm
          by oats

          Reply

          My quick answer is the team is still in the talent acquisition phase of rebuild. Once you have enough pieces to try to make a leap, then you worry about how you fit them together. Who knows, by the time Detroit is really close to read to make that leap to contender status they won’t need to move either of their big men. It just doesn’t make sense to me to move one of them now.

          • Apr 9, 20131:07 am
            by Otis

            @oats: It makes plenty of sense to trade Monroe right now if you can project that he and Drummond aren’t a great fit. It makes sense to let them play together more, but they had 50 games to start the season where they didn’t do that. I wish they did, but they didn’t.
             
            The worst of all cases is that we’re too patient with them and sign Monroe to a rookie max deal and THEN are finally faced with the fact that they’re two very good players who SUCK together. Now you’ve got a huge contract attached to Monroe and either have to find a taker who will give us something GREAT for him, or you’re forced to trade Drummond. That’s a nightmare on the horizon, and I don’t want it to come to that.
             
            There’s something to be said for building your team this summer. Tearing the damn thing down and building something special with pieces you choose, rather than whatever someone will give you for Monroe once you realize this was a big mistake. You act like there’s some natural process towards becoming a championship team, but who says this team is moving in the right direction? And your draft picks are lining up for their next contracts, which could cripple the future.

          • Apr 9, 20131:49 am
            by oats

            First of all, the two don’t project that poorly together. I don’t know how I can say this so it makes more sense than I have already. We just don’t know enough about how they will develop either as a unit or as individuals to make that kind of projection yet. You’re making an awful lot of conclusions about them off very little data. You are projecting neither of them to get an average jump shot, and Monroe isn’t that far off from average right now. You are projecting that these 5 games are enough to judge their fit as a pairing, which sounds insane to me. Talented players often find a way to work things out, and these two seem talented. You are also projecting that Drummond is actually going to be the better player and therefore Monroe is the one to go, which isn’t crazy but is hardly a foregone conclusion. You are also projecting that the reward for Monroe now is significantly better than the reward later, and I think that’s nonsense. I don’t get coming to the conclusion that they don’t fit well together anyways because we just have so little data on that, and what we do have is biased by a roster that just doesn’t make sense.
             
            The natural process you dismiss is pretty simple. Acquire assets, then figure out how to change them around until the assets fit together. The execution of that simple idea is obviously very difficult and changes wildly in every case. The team is still in the first part of that, the talent acquisition phase. As for if the team is moving in the right direction, I’d say they most definitely are. Monroe and Drummond are the kinds of young talent that starts a team in the right direction. That doesn’t mean they are necessarily pieces of the final picture, but they are a start in the right direction. The question is if they will continue in the right direction. That means they have to continue adding players, not looking to dump them.
             
            You are calling for the team to move Monroe for a perimeter player, and I get the idea. The problem is finding one that represents decent value and is actually a likely get. I honestly can’t come up with one. I case Rondo might be available, but he’s not the kind of guy I’d want to tie my wagon too. So just who are we talking about here? I seriously can’t come up with a single perimeter player it makes sense for us to trade for. I’m just not seeing it. While I’m against the trade Monroe idea in general, I’m definitely open to moving him for an actual talent upgrade. That upgrade can be a player in any position, but just someone better than the scrubs on the perimeter is not what I’m talking about. The team has to end up in a better place talent wise than they currently stand. Again, I just don’t see where that is going to happen.
             
            You also point out the difficulty of moving Monroe for another big. I agree with that in and of itself, but you are acting like moving Monroe will be the end game. A typical trade for someone of his caliber would end up with some combination of young prospects, productive players, draft picks, or cap space. Those are all assets that you would then use to help you find the guy you want. That’s kind of how this works. Maybe the young players develop, maybe the draft pick gets you your guy, or maybe the cap room allows you to sign someone. It doesn’t have to be Monroe for Ryan Anderson or something like that, although that is another possibility. If the problem is that the fit is just that bad, Monroe could be traded for a better fit but lesser player and another asset or two in order to make other improvements to the team. The whole is just way more fluid than you are making it out to be. That’s the actual worst case scenario, that Monroe and Drummond don’t work together and the team has to make a handful of moves to get things to work. The thing is, even if Monroe is traded the end result will be a team that probably needs to tweak a few things to be a contender. I’m just not seeing a huge benefit to moving him now.

        • Apr 9, 20131:00 am
          by Otis

          Reply

          @vic: You do not sound very creative. If your two best players CAN NOT play together, you CAN NOT hold onto them both. There just aren’t enough assets on the roster to get away with that. Much smarter to trade Monroe and bring back a nice package of assets if things aren’t working than to commit $80M to him

          • Apr 9, 20131:55 am
            by oats

            Where is the $80 million number coming from? The first contract after the rookie one is for an average salary equal to 1/4th of the cap. Monroe is unlikely to get a 5th year on the cap if Drummond is as good as you seem to think, they will save the one 5 year deal for him. That means his 4 year deal maxes at whatever the cap will be that year. Considering the cap has been $58 million for a few years in a row it seems likely that the cap will still be in the $58 million range, giving Monroe a max deal of 4 years and roughly $58 million. To get to $80 million you’d need the cap to jump significantly to $64 million and the team to use it’s only 5 year deal on him. I guess the cap could jump that high, but it seems unlikely. It seems more unlikely that he gets the 5 year deal. This $80 million number is garbage.

    • Apr 8, 201310:21 am
      by tarsier

      Reply

      That’s a worthy consideration. But it’s also a huge part of the reason they should have been playing together all season. How are we to know? Based on a couple hundred minutes?

      The early returns on James and Wade said they were a bad fit too. But guess what, they figured it out.

      • Apr 8, 201312:20 pm
        by Otis

        Reply

        I don’t want to write off the Wade/James point, because it’s probably the first counter-argument that even gives me a little pause, but those two guys were multiple All-Stars, MVP, NBA champion pedigree players. And they were each playing at their natural positions, just learning how to best share the ball after being THE MAN for their entire careers. At the very least, I think they may have ended up a bit of a disappointment given the expectations, but they certainly still projected to be a good team once they figured it out. It’s not like there were any tangible obstacles in their way.
         
        I don’t think that’s the case here. You’ve got two guys who have played virtually all their minutes at center, and they have the tangible problem of being completely unable to spread the floor, which derails the entire offense. The solution(s) would be for Drummond to develop some serious post moves and/or for Monroe to develop a lethal 17 foot jumper, but it’s not safe to assume that either of these things are going to happen. I’m just trying to make reasonable projections.
         
        They absolutely should have been sharing the floor for the first 50 games of the season, and it’s extremely frustrating that they didn’t, but what can we do about it now? Waste this opportunity to legitimately reshape the roster into something great so we can roll the dice on these two becoming a dominant frontcourt? I wouldn’t take that chance when you can easily trade Monroe for a king’s ransom and build around Drummond with players who genuinely complement him.

        • Apr 8, 201312:42 pm
          by tarsier

          Reply

          If the opportunity presented itself to ship either out for say Kevin Love, I’d be all for it. But if you are going to trade one away because of fit concerns with such a small sample size, you better make sure you’re getting back full value.

          • Apr 9, 20131:11 am
            by Otis

            I think Monroe would fetch a lot. Give a team a full season of his production at just $4M, then they have time to see how he fits and what kind of contract they want to give him. If they’re not enamored, they can just give him a qualifying offer and still get another incredibly cheap year of his production. I think there are a few teams who would give you quite a lot for that.
             
            On the other hand, once you’ve inked him to a COLOSSAL contract, the only teams who will want him must already be in love with him to take on that kind of money. And he’ll get you a lot less in return once he’s attached to that contract. Failing to fit next to Drummond could hurt his value too, especially since by this point the Pistons will be trading him from a position of weakness. I’ve thought all this through.

          • Apr 9, 20132:06 am
            by oats

            No one is giving up more for Monroe with the idea that they won’t keep him. That’s dumb. You don’t give up good pieces to acquire a good young player you don’t plan to hold on to. Given that, what is the difference between getting a guy you plan to pay later and getting him later after he is getting paid? The answer is not a hell of a lot. His value really isn’t going anywhere. In fact, it might increase. He is up for his new contract in the year of LeBron 2.0, so teams are a little wary of adding long term salary. Yes, I do consider Monroe long term salary since no one is looking at him as an expiring contract after this next year. Because of that teams are more likely to know what they can or can’t afford based on who they get in that stacked free agent class.
             
            You also seem to be suggesting the qualifying offer would keep him that year. Someone definitely makes him an offer the team would have to match to retain him. That just isn’t a likely scenario, on top of it being a dumb thing for a team to plan on. The plan absolutely has to be to retain him if they are giving up enough to acquire a really productive young big man.

          • Apr 9, 201310:19 am
            by Huddy

            Why would he “fetch a lot” if he needs a trial year to see if he is worth a big contract.  If you believe a big contract would scare teams away then why would you believe teams would give us something quality to try out a player that you don’t think is worth big money, but that will be looking for big money?  I agree that teams would love his production at 4mil for a year, but why would we think we would get a lot in return for that year we are giving them?  The only way we are getting good value for him is if we find a trade partner that is ready to pay him and thinks he deserves it.

        • Apr 8, 201312:48 pm
          by Huddy

          Reply

          I think a few things get glossed over in this discussion about Monroe and Drummond together.  First of all I agree that the two of them together isn’t sure to work and comes with quite a few questions marks.  That being said I hear a lot about what they won’t be able to do because of their skill sets, but there are things that they can do better than other combinations.  Rebounding for one, two big men with size and great rebounding ability can be a huge asset.  This allows us second chances at easy buckets and slows down other team’s fast breaks because they have to respect our rebounding ability.  The other things I see as positive is their size advantage in the post on offense.  Other teams going small may very well have a hard time playing both our bigs in the post, which reduces the level of post moves that they really need to score.  Having a distinct size advantage allows for more bullying to the basket as opposed to finesse.
           
          It also seems like the level of mid range shooting Moose needs is overstated.  I don’t think he needs to be “lethal” many PFs have a mid range that just needs to be respected so you won’t completely leave them open, which is where I think Monroe needs to be.  This is especially true because threatening the shot can open him up to driving chances that he takes pretty well atleast to get to the foul line. 
           
          The other thing I think that is overstated is how easy it would be to trade him.  With the amount of elite talent in FA next year, Monroe being this close to a big contract is a much harder sell than I think people realize.  We could only trade with someone who accepts that Moose has a pay day coming and in many cases that means those teams need to get rid of their ability to sign one of the proven talents in 2014.  There are only so many teams with this much cap space and we need to consider what we get in return and if it is worth gambling with a duo we are not even sure doesn’t work together.  Most of the trade suggestion I read on hear involve us getting Kevin Love or something of that nature, which in reality is a very low possibility unless we give up more than Moose and then we are just a stripped down team with an injury prone Kevin Love.
           
          I wouldn’t say a trade is off the table, but I don’t think people should look at it as if we don’t trade him we wasted an opportunity.  There is a good chance a good trade doesn’t exist and if we keep Monroe it isn’t exactly the end of the world, he is very productive and in the event he proves to be more of a Center he isn’t untradable in the future just because we resign him.  If a team was willing to trade and then sign a contract with him, they could just as well trade after hes a year into his new contract as well.

        • Apr 8, 20131:13 pm
          by G

          Reply

          I disagree with chucking Monroe on a fundamental level, and here’s why – the Pistons aren’t a talented team. Who is one of their 3 most talented players, maybe their best player? Monroe. Duncan and Robinson figured out how to play together, and the Pistons were able to pair Ben Wallace with several PF/C types (Sheed, Okur, McDyess, Campbell, etc.).

          I think this works when Drummond & Monroe develop a rapport and defenses don’t know whether to guard against Monroe’s 8 footer or the lob. I don’t think Monroe needs to have a “lethal 17 footer”, but if he can become Pau Gasol (hit 35-40% on mid-range shots), then this pairing will work.

          You also don’t need Drummond to develop “serious post moves”. Maybe later in his career, but for now all you need is that lob to be there and a hook shot. Drummond is going to beat guys with his energy, size and athleticism. He doesn’t need to be Olajuwon in the post. Dwight Howard will do.

          • Apr 8, 20133:31 pm
            by oats

            Monroe’s a roughly 32.8% shooter on anything from 10 feet to the 3 point line. About a 5% jump is all we’re talking about for him to have his mid range shot where teams will follow him out there. He’s a decent free throw shooter, so it isn’t that hard to believe he will get there. Heck, last year he was at 38.4% on a much smaller number of shots. It isn’t a stretch to think he can get back to that percentage with an increased number of shots.
             
            As for Drummond, a point guard that can run the pick and roll is also mandatory. That’s part of why I hate the idea of Brandon Knight being the starting point guard so much. He sucks at the pick and roll and that wastes the fact that Drummond is already one of the best pick guys for the pick and roll in the league. 
             
            I also really agree that right now the biggest need for this team is talent. You don’t squander talent when you have it.

  • Apr 8, 20131:39 am
    by Big Rick

    Reply

    Otis, I’m right there with you bro. I made a similar assessment awhile ago. The same scenario played out Saturday against the T-Wolves. Derrick Williams was putting on a clinic and Moose was playing kind of lackadaisical…so it obvious Jonas had to come in to try and slow him down but as a surprise to no one he took out Drummond instead. Unfortunately I guess he’s our best player (sigh)? But there are times that he deserves to be yanked. He puts up some nice double doubles but him padding his stats rarely lead to anything in the victory column. I’m just saying. Frustrating that Drummond gets yanked when Moose has a hard time guarding his man. With that being said I’m not too confident that this pairing will work. I hope so, but not looking good so far. There is potential there though. 

    • Apr 8, 201312:25 pm
      by Otis

      Reply

      Drummond got yanked because of a minutes restriction, so I at least get that. But yeah, this isn’t looking very good so at all. Why is it so hard for people to look at these guys and the floor spacing problems and the fact that this team is much better when one of them is on the bench? Because we really wanted them to be the next Gasol/Randolph? It just doesn’t look like it’s going to turn out that way, so why screw the whole team because of it?? We thought they would be a good match and they aren’t. Move on before you commit $80 million to Monroe, because he’ll be a lot harder to move then. And preferably, move on before you come into next season and watch the same damn thing happen again. SMH

      • Apr 8, 20133:40 pm
        by GEORGIO

        Reply

        No GM in his right mind would trade Monroe because he thinks he can’t coexist with Drummond based on such a samll sample size. You have TWO very good big men when a lot of teams don’t even have one, you don’t get rid of one you put players around them that makes both of them better. After 5 games you, in your infinite wisdom,  have declared the pairing not workable, truly amazing. Fortunately a real GM is running the team and he will not be trading Monroe any time soon, we have a foundation now so we build on it not tear it down. 

        • Apr 9, 20131:18 am
          by Otis

          Reply

          But in that small sample size, Drummond and Monroe don’t make EACH OTHER better.
           
          There is a CHASM of difference between Drummond and Monroe. Drummond has a much higher ceiling and the potential to be dominant, and he’s under contract for almost no money for several more years. Monroe is probably pretty close to his ceiling and is a year away from a TREMENDOUS contract. I don’t think Monroe is a franchise player in the first place.
           
          I see what you’re saying about having two quality big men, but if they can’t play together they can’t play together. It’s as simple as that. You’re not maximizing Monroe by playing him at PF, you’re not maximizing either of them by putting them next to each other, and the team is suffering by being unable to spread the floor. No penetration, no slashing lanes, no room for our big men to operate… It’s just a bad situation. This just may be one of the rare times when it makes sense to trade one of your best players. Look back at Minnesota with Jefferson and Love.

          • Apr 9, 20132:25 am
            by oats

            Monroe is 22, and most players don’t actually reach their peak until they are about 27. How is he “probably pretty close to his ceiling”? We have no idea what his ceiling is yet. I’d say he definitely has the chance to be the second best player on a contender, and he’s not there yet. The second best player on a contender is also definitely worth a max deal.
             
            The Jefferson and Love thing was a bit different. First of all, they actually let them play together for a bit to try to see if it worked. Detroit hasn’t done that yet. Al was also 26, and he actually was close to his peak. Both Jefferson and Love had some injury issues, so it made some sense that they should move one of them. It’s hard to hitch your team to 2 injury prone guys. That team also didn’t have the kid of free cap space Detroit has this year. They moved Jefferson to give them a chance to address other roster needs. Detroit has cap space to address those needs.

          • Apr 9, 20139:13 am
            by G

            Another problem with the Jefferson & Love comparison – neither could defend worth a damn. Love & LARRY SANDERS! would have been a better pairing, except Love’s been out all year.

  • Apr 8, 20131:45 am
    by Mark

    Reply

    I think 10/12/3 for Dre next year. It all depends on minutes though, really. He could probably avg 15/15 if he played 40 mpg

  • Apr 8, 20131:47 am
    by Big Rick

    Reply

    I must admit that I feel kind of guilty cuz honestly as of late I too find myself rooting for us to loose after a solid effort in order to increase our looses of getting a top 5 lottery pick. Truth be told, even if we finish with the fith worst record our odds are still better to receive a pick 5-7 than 1-4. Not holding my breath for a top 3 pick, have a gut feeling we’ll be picking around the same slot as we have been the last 3 years and they play out the same we’ll benefit from someone picking ahead of us passing on a more superior talent that we’ll swoop up. 
    I can’t lie it felt kind of good besting the Bulls tonight and snapping that losing streak! 
    Go Pistons!!!!! 

  • Apr 8, 20132:18 am
    by T Casey

    Reply

    Us inching further ahead of Cleveland this late in the season isn’t exactly what I want to see, but tonight was a good, hard earned win nonetheless. Also, props on adding “incomplete” to the grading scale. Should help keep some of the grievances with grading down.

  • Apr 8, 201310:15 am
    by Corey

    Reply

    I don’t want to see us catch up to NO and Sacramento. If we’re at #5, we’ll end up with the 6th worst pick, I expect. If we catch them and end up at #7, we could easily get the 8th pick.

    The way I see it, Noel will go #1 (probably), then the 2nd tier is Smart, McLemore, Porter, Bennet, and Oladipo. 

    If we have the 5th pick – great, we are guaranteed a choice of two of those, and will certainly have a top perimeter player available. We’ll probably end up with Oladipo or Porter, which would be fairly ideal. If we’re 6th, there’s a chance we’ll be stuck with Bennet, or taking someone less talented for fit purposes. At 8 or 9? Yeesh.

    • Apr 8, 201310:24 am
      by tarsier

      Reply

      It is highly, highly improbable that the Pistons pass New Orleans AND pass Sacramento AND get jumped by someone in the lottery in spite of being pegged all the way down at 7th. It could happen, but the odds are better of the Pistons landing the top pick overall. 

      • Apr 8, 201311:12 am
        by G

        Reply

        Actually, it’s pretty probable the Pistons AT LEAST end the season with a better record than New Orleans and Sacramento.
        Detroit’s remaining schedule – CLE (.316 winning %), CHA (.234), PHI (.408), BKL (.579)
        New Orleans’ remaining sched – LAL (.519), SAC(.351), LAC(.662), DAL(.494), DAL (.494)
        Sacramento’s remaining sched – NO (.351), SA (.740), HOU (.558), OKC (.727), LAC (.662)

        The Pistons are playing pretty good right now, I think they probably beat CLE & CHA, and maybe PHI. I don’t think they beat Brooklyn unless all the playoff spots are locked up, but that doesn’t seem likely.

        New Orleans could be Sacramento and MAYBE win one of the Dallas games, but probably not. Sacramento could beat NO and MAYBE the Clippers, since they should be resting Paul and Blake, and whoever else. Best case scenario – Detroit wins 2 (finishing .341), NO wins 1 (.341) and SAC wins 2 (.354). Worst case scenario, Detroit wins 3 (.354), NO wins zero (.329) and SAC wins 1 (.341).  

        • Apr 8, 201312:45 pm
          by tarsier

          Reply

          That’s fine, but even if you assumed a 55% chance of passing up each of those teams, that probably gives you about a 35% chance of passing both (since these odds aren’t independent). And that would yield a 25% chance of dropping below 7th, which gives odds of under 10% overall.

          Even things are reasonably likely become improbable when you specify that a bunch of them all have to occur.

        • Apr 8, 201312:49 pm
          by tarsier

          Reply

          Also, don’t count out how much better Cleveland is now with Irving back, especially if Knight is out for that game and can’t deliver his signature anti-Irving game.

          • Apr 8, 20131:38 pm
            by G

            I don’t think Irving will play against the Pistons. The Cavs have said they’re not playing him on back-to-backs and they’re playing Indiana the night before. 

            I wasn’t factoring in made-up percentages or odds or anything, I was just looking at the facts and asking myself what is most likely to happen. The Pistons are only 1 win ahead of NO & SAC, and I think it’s very likely that one or both of those teams passes or ties Detroit by the end of the season. In my best case scenario, Detroit is tied with NO at the 5/6 spots. In the worst case scenario, they fall back to the 7th spot.

            It’s extremely unlikely that someone behind the #7 spot gets a top 3 pick, I’m not really worried about that. I’m mainly worried that in a 5 or 6 player draft, the Pistons may end up with the 7th pick.

          • Apr 8, 20131:54 pm
            by tarsier

            The point isn’t made up percentages. The point is, it’s not the odds of the Pistons passing one. It’s the dds of passing both AND falling further in the lottery. That’s a lot of things all happening.

          • Apr 8, 20132:23 pm
            by G

            I agree with that, but there’s a pretty good chance the Pistons fall to the 7th pick. I think there’s a better chance they end up with the 7th pick than with the 5th pick. And picking 7th in this draft worries me. Unless some team screws up their pick (which does happen), Detroit could end up drafting for their bench instead of drafting a starter.

          • Apr 8, 20132:45 pm
            by tarsier

            assuming someone grabs smart and muhammad where they are projected, that leaves mclemore, noel, porter, bennet, oladipo. would you be disappointed by any of those 5?

            heck, i’d even be fine with burke even though i’m not as excited about him as some.

            so as long detroit isn’t drafting 7th with those 5 and burke off the board, things should be ok.

            but of course, a higher pick would be better. it would increase the odds of getting mclemore or porter. 

          • Apr 8, 20133:32 pm
            by G

            I’d be fine with any of those guys, but I’m afraid the #7 pick means the Pistons end up with Muhammad.

          • Apr 8, 20133:40 pm
            by oats

            Don’t forget Zeller could push guys too. Some teams seem to like him for some reason. I doubt both him and Muhammad are in the top 6, but I think the odds of one of them going is reasonably high, and as tarsier pointed out that leaves someone for Detroit.

          • Apr 8, 20133:43 pm
            by G

            I would be shocked to see Zeller in the top 10. I’d be a little less shocked to see Muhammad go in the top 5, but not by much.

          • Apr 8, 20133:46 pm
            by G

            Ok, I underestimated how bad this draft was. I’ll amend my earlier statement about Zeller to “I’d be shocked to see him go ahead of the Pistons’ pick”

          • Apr 8, 20134:31 pm
            by oats

            I’ve seen both Zeller and Len projected anywhere from about pick 6 to pick 14. There seems to be very little agreement on this draft. Interestingly no one likes both of them to go in the top 10, but a lot of people seem to like one or the other. It isn’t the most likely, but I also never saw Dion Waiters coming off the board before Drummond. Turns out I was a little too low on Waiters, but you should get my point. All draft boards are crap shoots, and this year’s one feels especially volatile. I really have no idea what is going to happen in this draft to be honest.
             
            This draft isn’t that bad though. I’d have Detroit target Noel, McLemore, Porter, Oladipo, Burke, and Bennet. That’s a 6 man group of players. Most everyone has Smart somewhere in the top 4, so at least one of those guys is going to be there at 7. Throw in the obscenely high probability of one head scratching decision and then Detroit has a decent chance of getting to choose between two guys in the list. Muhammad, Zeller, and Len all would qualify as a head scratching decision that seems vaguely plausible. There’s also the chance someone I wouldn’t think to add just has great workouts and goes way too high (MCW perhaps? The NBA loves big point guards).
             
            Detroit is probably picking 5 or 6. If they end up there they will be fine. If they slip to 7 they will likely still have at least one of the 6 guys I like, and maybe 2 if the NBA continues its trend of doing stupid stuff early in the draft. They are really unlikely to drop to 8, but that is where I’d start getting worried and start praying someone screws up again.

          • Apr 8, 20135:05 pm
            by G

            The problem is I think problem only 4 of those 6 will be any good, the rest will be mediocre. I think Bennett’s out, and then either Burke or Oladipo. In a draft you have different tiers of talent. I think the top tier is only about 4 players deep. Noel, McLemore, Porter… then either Oladipo or Burke. I think Smart, Bennett and either Burke or Oladipo are a tier below, then Shabazz, Harris, Len, Zeller, MCW are another tier.

          • Apr 8, 20135:25 pm
            by tarsier

            Sure, there’ll be some busts, but wee don’t know which. So drafting later within a tier doesn’t really matter. If the Pistons can get one of those top three, great. Otherwise, I’ll take any of the next bunch.

          • Apr 8, 20135:27 pm
            by oats

            See, I disagree on the tier system you have there. I don’t have either Oladipo or Burke as being in that top tier. I have Noel as clearly the best player, but McLemore and Porter in his tier. I then have Oladipo, Burke, Bennet, and Smart all in that next group after them. I guess at 5 there is still some chance Porter is hanging around, but I think the top tier and Smart are most likely to go in the top 4. Given that, I don’t care that much which of the guys from that second group the team gets. The only player in that second tier I want to avoid is Smart because he doesn’t fit at all, but I already said I expect him gone in the top 4. If Porter slides to 5 then I’ll be pissed the Pistons slid, but I really think that most teams see him as one of the top 4 guys right now.

          • Apr 8, 20136:14 pm
            by oats

            I think G is saying Oladipo and Burke are the two most likely to outproduce their tier and play like the top 3 guys. I don’t actually agree with that sentiment, and it seems to go contrary to the whole purpose of using a tier system. I think Oladipo and Burke clearly belong together in that second tier, and I don’t think anyone in that group is more or less likely to out perform their expectations than another.

          • Apr 9, 20138:53 am
            by G

            That’s not what I was saying at all. I hadn’t made up my mind whether Burke or Oladipo belong in the 4-player top tier. I’m inclined to say Oladipo.

            My whole point was there are only 4 players with the talent to come out & start right away for practically any team. After those first 4, more depends on fit. Even on the Pistons, a talent depleted team, Burke would probably be a bench player most of the year. Same for Bennett, Shabazz, MCW…

          • Apr 9, 20133:21 pm
            by oats

            I’m less concerned with starting immediately as with long term projections. I’d say only the top 3 guys have different long term projections than that next group. Noel, McLemore, and Porter have the potential to be the 2nd best player on a good team, the next group doesn’t project that well. That includes Oladipo. They all project as starters for a good team, but not focal points like the top 3 could be.

          • Apr 9, 20134:20 pm
            by G

            I included Oladipo because of his defense. He’s not likely to become the #2 option on a good team, but I think his defense will make him the 2nd best player on a good team. Ben Wallace was one of the Pistons’ 2 best players, but he was the last option on offense. Not sure if Oladipo’s D ever gets to that level or not, but his offense isn’t as bad either.

          • Apr 9, 20135:47 pm
            by oats

            I wasn’t talking just offense either. I actually thought Ben was the best player by the way because he just had that kind of impact on the game. I don’t think Oladipo’s total impact will be enough to get to the point it needs to be in order to be the second best player on a good team. I guess you do just have Oladipo in the top tier while I have him clearly in the second tier. If I agreed with that assessment I’d be more nervous about the team dropping a spot or two. As it is I have the team picking from the second tier unless they move up in the draft from pick 5, so pretty much only if they get some luck in the lottery. That’s where we seem to differ, I only have a 3 man top tier.

  • Apr 8, 20132:11 pm
    by I HATE FRANK

    Reply

    We can lose the rest of the games, I just like that we finally beat the Bulls after 18 games …. 
    That’s insane …

    I think depending on how you grade the talent, you can get good player right you to the 7th or 8th pick that can contribute right away…

  • Apr 8, 20132:34 pm
    by I HATE FRANK

    Reply

    Guys that will still be around 6,7,8

    Micheal Carter Williams …
    Shabazz…
    Olapido…
    Burke…

    still not bad

    • Apr 8, 20132:47 pm
      by Huddy

      Reply

      Agreed, 6 7 or 8 is more likely to make our selection more obvious, but not necessarily a bad one.  At 4-5 there is a pretty big debate about who to pick meaning in the next couple picks there are at least solid options.

  • Apr 8, 20134:53 pm
    by Mark

    Reply

    It makes no sense why ppl keep saying we are more likely to be 6, 7 or 8 than 5th, when we ARE 5th right now.

    • Apr 8, 20135:07 pm
      by G

      Reply

      Because there are 2 teams that have only one more win than Detroit & they both have a much harder remaining schedule. Detroit plays Cleveland, Charlotte and Philly.

    • Apr 8, 20135:10 pm
      by oats

      Reply

      I don’t think that’s what is being said exactly. For the most part people seem aware the team is probably finishing 5 or 6. Given Detroit’s weak schedule remaining and the way they just played I think it is about as likely for the team to be in the 6th spot as the 5th. I also think everyone is aware that 5 is way more likely than 7 or 8. It seems like what you are seeing is more concern for what happens if the team does drop to 7 in the draft. That is still reasonably likely and thus worth talking about.

      • Apr 8, 20135:12 pm
        by oats

        Reply

        I guess the odds of them being anywhere in the 6-8 range is probably higher than the odds of them being 5th though since the odds of them being 5th are roughly equal to the odds of them being 6th.

        • Apr 9, 20138:54 am
          by G

          Reply

          I think 7 is more likely than 5.

          • Apr 9, 20133:04 pm
            by oats

            Well then I stand corrected.
             
            I still think 5 is more likely than 7. The Hornets and Kings still play each other, and I’d bet the winner of that game won’t pass the Pistons in the race to the bottom. That isn’t really worth arguing over though. I’m starting to think 6 is the most likely outcome with 5 and 7 being closer to even odds. I’ve changed my mind on this since yesterday.

          • Apr 9, 20133:35 pm
            by G

            For the Pistons to finish at the 5 spot, you’d need them to lose 3 more games to Cleveland, Charlotte, Philly, and Brooklyn. As well as Detroit is playing right now, that’s a tall order. I should mention, I’m not expecting Irving to play vs. the Pistons since the Cavs will be on the 2nd night of a back-to-back.

          • Apr 9, 20135:35 pm
            by tarsier

            You don’t know that. Finishing 2-2 would most likely land in a tie for 5. Going 1-3 could easily push the Pistons all the way to 4. It’s hard to say how many games Sacramento, New Orleans, and Cleveland will win.

            Losing to the Cavs would be huge though. 

    • Apr 8, 20135:27 pm
      by tarsier

      Reply

      And everyone is ignoring the decent although not amazing chance of being in the 1-3 range.

      • Apr 8, 20135:47 pm
        by oats

        Reply

        Yeah, that’s true. Anywhere in the top 6 in standings has at least a 1 in 5 shot of picking 1-3. That’s a puncher’s chance. Not that I’m counting on that or anything, but Detroit’s odds aren’t that bad yet.
         

  • Apr 8, 20135:50 pm
    by George

    Reply

    I mentioned this once in an earlier post, but I really think we should offer our pick this year to a team like the Bobcats for their #1 next year (assuming we don’t get a high pick).  There is no way in hell they will be a playoff team next year.  If they get the #1 pick this year and they get our pick, they could take a chance on a Noel (who probably won’t play next year) and they can still get another guy like Olapido, Porter, or Bennett with our pick.

    I just don’t feel 100% confidant in this years draft, and next year is ridiculously stacked.  It would basically work out to where Bobcats would get our pick next year (Gordon trade) and we get their 2014 pick.

    Next year, we have to focus on developing Drummond and Monroe and rebuilding our team/chemistry via free agency. 

  • Apr 8, 20136:17 pm
    by Big Rick

    Reply

    Valid points made on both sides of the Moose & Drummond pairing. But one thing that seems to have been lost in the shuffle is the defensive side of the ball. That should be more if a concern than the offense right now. Greg can’t defend his way out of a paper bag and he will continue to get exposed guarding forwards. 

    • Apr 8, 20136:57 pm
      by oats

      Reply

      Greg’s biggest problem on defense is his ability to guard the post, something that is magnified by playing center. What’s more, he is also decent at guarding jump shots and that is more likely to be used at power forward. His other huge problem on defense is that he is just an awful help defender. Playing center actually magnifies that problem as the closest guy to the hoop is also the most likely need to give help defense. I actually think he’ll hold up better at power forward than at center. He just won’t be getting pushed around so often. Even if not, I highly doubt he’ll really get worse than he has been at center.

      • Apr 9, 201310:56 am
        by Keith

        Reply

        I disagree with this assessment. Monroe isn’t particularly good at any part of defense except quick hands for steals. His problem as a help defender extends to an inability to consistently stay with his man off the ball. He has little agility, and simply does not move well side to side. What this means is that players often have a very easy time blowing by him from the perimeter. At PF, he is tasked with guarding the perimeter a lot more, and any quick player takes advantage of him. Of course, a C can have the largest individual impact on a team’s defense, so it’s not ideal to put a poor defender (he’s going to be a poor defender at any spot) there.
         
        The fact of the matter is, Greg is a very poor defender. We don’t really need to qualify much more than that because he’s not going to be a net positive at any position on the defensive end. Drummond’s development into a Dwight-level defender at the 5 is going to be paramount to Greg’s total value going forward. This is the main reason I wouldn’t consider Monroe a max player. Defense is half the game, and Greg is really terrible at it.
         
        Note: it IS possible to be a solid defender with limited athleticism. Marc Gasol is not a great athlete by NBA standards, but he does have other thing going for him. He is absolutely the smartest defender in the NBA, and uses tiny movements and spacing to cut off offenses before they get there. Also, he’s a giant with long arms, which means he has a lot more leeway to contest and bother opponents. Monroe, however, does not have that level of defensive awareness, is an even worse athlete, and is not particularly big or long for the position.
         

        • Apr 9, 201311:22 am
          by G

          Reply

          It’s a small sample size, but Monroe’s defensive numbers at PF so far are better than his numbers at C. This may even out, but I don’t think so. At PF he’ll usually have a size advantage. At C he’ll have no advantage, and as has already been pointed out, the C is the main help-defender. This is Monroe’s primary area of weakness, so moving him to PF should be a net-gain.

          What you think warrants a max contract and what the market thinks are 2 different things. Monroe is a flawed player, but he was a borderline all star last year and isn’t THAT far off this year. Moving him to PF will probably increase his value by hiding some of his deficiencies. In this market, he’s a max player. 

          • Apr 9, 201312:05 pm
            by Keith

            I’m not trying to debate what contract he will be offered, I just would play more hardball if I was Joe D. Hibbert got the max despite being a poor offensive player (although a great defender). Lopez got the max despite being a bad defender and rebounder (though a great scorer). Surely someone would offer Monroe the max regardless. But then again, Indiana has an albatross contract on their hands and can’t afford to go into the tax. NJ has more money than God, but still are hamstrung in improving their non-contender team because they’ve locked up all their money into limited players.
             
            If Monroe was even a neutral defender, I wouldn’t mind the max. But he’s not. Just to throw this out there (and I know PER is not the end-all-be-all of stats):
             
            At PF, Monroe has a 16.8 PER (above league average, but not close to being a star). His counterpart at PF averages a 16.9 PER (not terrible, again, but still better than he does.
             
            At C, Monroe has a 19.9 PER (very nearly all-star status, definitely a star if he played good defense. His counterpart at C averages a 20.3 PER (everyone who plays against Monroe at C ends up looking like a star)
             
            Basically, Greg has a lot of offensive value (mostly at C), but gives up more than he gets on average. I don’t see how you justify a max contract to a player like that.

          • Apr 9, 201312:33 pm
            by G

            You got that from 82games.com, right? I take their numbers with a largish grain of salt. Many of those stats don’t match up to what it looks like on the court, or they don’t factor in extenuating circumstances. 

            Here are a couple questions I would ask about that PER stat: does it look at the PER of the other starting PF, or the PF on the court when Monroe was on the court? Does it look only at the PF position, or does it look at the player Monroe was actually guarding? What about when Monroe has to switch? 

          • Apr 9, 201312:50 pm
            by Keith

            I’m pretty sure (though I can’t find the documentation) that the case is this: PER at position is based on minutes played at that position. So if Monroe is playing with Drummond at C, his numbers are rated as a PF. If he’s on the court with Maxiell playing PF, his numbers are rated as a C. The opponent is based on matched minutes. It’s not starter v starter or bench v bench, it’s who is actually on the court when Monroe is playing. Now, I believe it is an issue where it is taking the numbers of the opposing player based on position. That is, if Monroe is at PF, it simply takes the numbers of whatever PFs play at the same time – it doesn’t dig in to see if Monroe is actually guarding that PF at the time.
             
            Of course, that presents less of an issue with our team. We almost never cross-match defensively in the frontcourt, and we don’t switch our big men onto a guard in pick and rolls. I admit there are deficiencies in the data, but I expect that is less true of our team, which plays with very traditional roles.
             
            Of course, a bigger issue could be made of the offensive numbers. Monroe is a star at C offensively, but is considerably more average offensively at PF. These numbers don’t have as much suspicion since offense can dictate position a lot easier than defense. Granted, this kind of tells us what we already know. At PF, Monroe works a lot more from the top of the paint. He assists more, but turns the ball over more, rebounds less, and his efficency goes down. That’s because Monroe is a poor shooter and doesn’t have an adept dribble-drive game. Defensively he appears to be better at PF, but if he drops off in offense his value plummets.

          • Apr 9, 20132:08 pm
            by G

            It’s the defensive numbers I question. The offensive numbers back up what we’ve all been saying, that Monroe needs to develop a short to mid-range jump shot to be an effective PF.

          • Apr 9, 20132:56 pm
            by oats

            You realize how small the data set for him at PF is, right? Using 82games.com, the site you got your PER numbers from, only 2 of the top 20 lineups featuring Monroe is with him at PF. Those two lineups combine for 87 minutes, and 68 of them go to a lineup that features Tayshaun at SF. Both lineups feature Stuckey at SG, which I think we can admit is not ideal. Can we agree those numbers might not be totally accurate? 

          • Apr 9, 20133:32 pm
            by G

            I didn’t want to really address the small sample size, but yeah, it’s a small sample size. It’d also be worth looking at the season’s average PER for the PF’s Monroe was facing and comparing to PER vs. Monroe.
             

          • Apr 9, 20134:03 pm
            by Keith

            Those are very good points. They present their own problems of course (if Monroe is a PF, why did he play nearly all of his minutes at C? If the team was never serious about moving Monroe to PF, why play Drummond nearly all of his minutes there too instead of as a pick and roll PF?). The point about Stuckey is going to be a big one going forward. I completely agree that he has no business being on the floor with Monroe. Stuckey’s lack of shooting shrinks the floor for an already space-eating player like Monroe. Further, they both can’t have the ball, and Stuckey is not a passer when he drives. A Monroe-Drummond front line further diminishes any value Stuckey could have in such a lineup.
             
            The Tay point seems a little less useful. Despite how we all may feel about him as a part of the team, Tay was still better than the alternatives. When he was in Detroit, he was a better shooter, passer, rebounder, and defender than Singler/Jerebko. He was a ball stopper at times, sure, but our wings were pretty terrible anyway.
             
            Those numbers may be skewed, but it would be remiss not to say that the defensive “boost” at PF could equally be misleading. Pretty much everything tells us that Monroe isn’t a good defender, including the eye test. I’m not trying to say he needs to be great, I said already I would be happy with just neutral. To date, that hasn’t been the case. And to point at that sample size again, I have to question why people would say Monroe is an obviously better defender at the 4. 87 minutes over the course of the season means we’ve rarely seen it at all. I pointed to things I believe I’m seeing when I watch him play, because for the most part that’s the most reliable evidence I can use in such a small sample.

          • Apr 9, 20134:29 pm
            by oats

            The point of the Tayshaun comment was to show just what kind of numbers we are talking about with Monroe at power forward as opposed to a comment on Prince himself. Although it is also true that a lineup with Stuckey and Prince together has a tendency to be pretty iso heavy. Again, it wasn’t intended so much as a knock on Prince as a knock on small sample size that also happened awhile ago now. I immediately followed it up by pointing out Stuckey also being in the lineup is far from ideal, so I didn’t frame it well to make my point clear. My bad.
             
            I also agree that Monroe is not definitely a better defender at the 4. I most definitely agree that the numbers for him there defensively tell us very little. I just think the fact that he actually has a size advantage there, plus the fact that his awful post defense will be slightly less problematic makes him a slightly better but still bad defender at the 4. Even if he is mostly the same, just not playing center where the flaws in his awful help defense are magnified should make his bad defense less harmful. That said, the real crux of my initial argument that you disagreed with was the final sentence. I just don’t think he’ll be worse defensively at power forward than center. The reason is simple, he is just so awful defensively at center that he really isn’t likely to do worse than that.
             
            As for why he is playing center, well, I don’t completely understand the rationale there. The obvious answer is that the team decided to take things slower with Drummond than it makes sense to go, and as a result they had a lot of minutes at center left open. Monroe is clearly a better center than Slava, so it is only natural that he be the one getting most of them. What’s more, Slava is worse than Max, CV, and JJ, so the team just had more of a need at center than at power forward. None of this explains why they went so slow with Drummond, and that’s the part I don’t get. I will say this, I don’t think the team sees Monroe as a PF but rather they see him as a big that will switch between the power spots pretty often. It looks like the plan going forward will most likely involve staggering Monroe and Drummond so they combine to play pretty much all of the minutes at center between them. Maybe half of their minutes will be spent on the court together. I’d expect the team to add a new power forward this off season, or they might just role with CV and JJ as the back up bigs.

          • Apr 9, 20134:33 pm
            by G

            I think he brought up Tay because those minutes come from a different team than this one. It makes those numbers seem obsolete, if you think about it. 

            The whole “why did Monroe play most of his minutes at C” question, please direct that at Coach Frank. I was asking that question almost nightly since the beginning of 2013. 

            I think the “Monroe’s D should improve at PF” argument is better made as “Pistons’ team D improves with Monroe at PF” instead. With Drummond at C, there’s someone there to clean up Monroe’s messes. Monroe won’t have to worry quite so much about switching off his guy to cover a slasher, etc. The team’s better off with him at PF, whether he can cover the other PF any better remains to be seen. 

          • Apr 9, 20135:05 pm
            by oats

            That’s part of it too, the team just feels different since the Prince trade.

  • Apr 8, 20137:31 pm
    by Trent

    Reply

    Does it come down to best available again? like when we got BK nobody thought he would be on the board and nobody though we particularly needed a point guard but he was the best prospect on the board. Could that happen again?

    Also in hindsight, who you gonna take, Kemba or BK? I’m biased as a UConn man but I was pulling hard to get Kemba at that pick and he’s showing the guts and tenacity we all knew he had in a hopeless situation down in CHA.

    • Apr 8, 20138:10 pm
      by oats

      Reply

      First of all, I almost always say best player available. When players are even, then go for need. This year the need seems to be for any wing player, but if there isn’t one as good as the big men then you just get the big man.
       
      Point guard was definitely seen as a need then. Most people didn’t think Stuckey was really the answer at PG, so that was one of the holes on the team. The preference was for a big man, and especially for a big man that could play defense and help hide Monroe’s deficiencies.  I also didn’t have him as the highest player on my draft board when they did pick. I had Leonard on top of it, followed by Faried, and then Walker.
       
      As for Walker and Knight in a redo, I think I take Knight still. Walker is the better point guard, but he’s not exactly that good of a point guard. Knight doesn’t have a clear cut role, but even as a combo guard off the bench he might still be the more valuable player. I’m still going to back the younger player who also doubles as the better athlete because the difference between them is pretty slight. Again, that’s only if I only have them to choose from. I’d still take Leonard over either of them just like I wanted to on draft night.

      • Apr 9, 20132:47 am
        by oats

        Reply

        *Leonard, Faried, and then Knight was the order.

      • Apr 9, 20138:40 am
        by I HATE FRANK

        Reply

        “”"As for Walker and Knight in a redo, I think I take Knight still. Walker is the better point guard, but he’s not exactly that good of a point guard. Knight doesn’t have a clear cut role.”"

        thats been my point all year and last year…we compare Knight to guys thats been given a defined clear cut role with their teams. Knight has not been given a defined clear cut role , other than when Calderon joined the Pistons and he moved to SG…

        If you look at the 12 games following the Calderon debut…. Knight averaged around 16ppg shooting around 43% from the field and 41% for 3′s ….(NOT WOW Numbers, but solid in a defined role)

        However, There was a 8 game stretch following the All-Star game where Knight was
        averaging 18ppg shooting 46% FG and 46% for 3′s im not saying he maintains that high shooting percent, but he could level out to something decent while maintaining the scoring

        But since coming back to the Pistons have missing 5 games or pretty much 2 weeks of basketball he has struggled with shooting in the first 6 games, it has only been in the last 2 games where he scored 20 & 25 pts where he looked like he was playing directly after the all-star game…

        I guess my point is give the guy a defined clear cut role, and lets see what happens…. I believe IF the pistons want to move him back to PG…they have to give up on the notion that he is going to become a pass first PG….when he is clearing a scoring PG

        If they keep him at SG, you have to make sure he stays invovled in the offense…he cant just stand on the perimeter and just be watching the game….

        However, i like the flexiblity and options Knight brings…

        • Apr 9, 20138:48 am
          by G

          Reply

          Dude, this has been the story on Knight all season, when he had a defined role & when he didn’t. He’d have a couple really good games in a row & then fall into a slump. The one constant was turnovers. 

          • Apr 9, 20138:57 am
            by I HATE FRANK

            I agree you someone what …. but you deny that after the all star break until the injury he was playing really good basketball ….

            All I’m saying is give him a defined role and let’s see what happens 

          • Apr 9, 20139:08 am
            by G

            THAT WAS 2 GAMES! STOP SAYING THAT! 

            I don’t deny that for 2 games he was really good. He does that all the time – puts a couple good games together & then sucks again. It doesn’t matter whether he’s got a defined role or not, he’s inconsistent. 

          • Apr 9, 201310:16 am
            by I HATE FRANK

            overall he averaged 18ppg in that stretch 46% FG 48% after the all-star break….

            he had only 2 poor games…

            But im not debating with you….go look at the gamelog…and I watched each of those games…

          • Apr 9, 201310:50 am
            by G

            There were 2 games after the All Star break and before he got injured. If you’re talking about the 2nd time he got injured, then it’s 8 games and still less than 10% of the season. His role hasn’t really changed since he came back from his injury, so I’m not sure why you’re excluding those games. Either way, you’re cherry-picking a smaller sample size of data than you need to.

          • Apr 9, 20132:30 pm
            by I HATE FRANK

            Here we go….you going off the deep end….

            My point is clear …. I said in a defined role as a SG …. After the all star break he was playing good basketball …. In the 8 games he played averaged 18ppg 46% fg and 46% 3′s …..  he scored 20 or more 4 times …. he only had 2 poor games, and if you wanna call the game against he knicks poor you can…but I will say you didn’t watch the game …..

            We know its a sample size, I even said I don’t believe he could maintain the shooting percentage, but he could maintain the scoring at 16-18ppg 

            So the issue is? ….  

          • Apr 9, 20133:13 pm
            by oats

            Finding a stretch like that is not uncommon for Knight. It proves exactly nothing. Streaky players have hot streaks. You can’t argue he was more consistent over 8 games because 8 games isn’t a long enough stretch to prove consistency. It was a hot streak, get over it. Knight certainly has based off how he cooled off after that stretch.

          • Apr 9, 20133:16 pm
            by G

            Not sure how stating facts is “going off the deep end”. I was basically saying what oats said just below – that Knight is very inconsistent, whether he has a defined role or not. Grabbing an 8 game sample isn’t enough to extrapolate from. 

            You keep referring to this 8 game stretch between the All Star game and the 2nd time Knight got injured as somehow the metric by which his current level of ability should be measured. I don’t get that. It seems almost arbitrary. I could pick a set of 7 games at the beginning of the season where he averaged 18.4 ppg on 49% shooting, say that proves Knight was better offensively at PG, and be no more right than you are.

          • Apr 9, 20133:59 pm
            by I HATE FRANK

            The dumbest part …. Both of you are soo eager to trash knight you are completely missing the point….I did not say ….this proves anything …

            I said he was playing good basketball in 8 game stretch before his last injury in a consitent role, at SG

            Read the original comment smh

          • Apr 9, 20134:04 pm
            by oats

            So you are saying you weren’t actually making a point? Good of you to admit that what you said was basically nonsense.

          • Apr 9, 20134:12 pm
            by G

            So you’re saying absolutely nothing. Thanks for wasting our time.

          • Apr 10, 20137:24 am
            by I HATE FRANK

            First off no one, and I mean no one forces oats or G to reply … 

            2ndly….I didn’t say I didn’t have a point … The point is very clear….

            3rd … The reasons debates change and it turns into a silly arguements….you guys add words, that wasn’t said …

            Example: I was speaking about BK as a SG …with Calderon @PG…. The whole coaching staff, and even the players said it was a differemt role for Knight to adjust to….its a very small sample but I was talking 12 game he started as the clear cut starting SG small sample yes, but its still the best to look at because it was pre-injury…I said his numbers were solid or average or ok….then I said they got better after the all-star break…in a 8 game stretch before he got injuried …. The POINT is in a SG role we saw knight production go up…. but does it prove he can maintain it? No…and I said he probably could not maintain the shooting percentage. 

            The comment is about giving Knight a clear role…and I said LET SEE WHAT HAPPENS! I didn’t say in a clear cut role Knight is going to flourish at SG or PG …I said let see what happens …. I have said several times that next season is a make or break year for Knight, and I said I’m not opposed to trading Knight, I’m not saying he is our no question PG of the future…

            So Oats and G …if you dislike me or my comment its a simple fix..don’t read or reply to my stuff ….its rd ….2ndly if you dislike Knight soo much that if anyone doesn’t say Knight sucks! they don’t know anything…then you both need to start your own Brandon Sucks blog for people who thinks like you both 

          • Apr 10, 20138:18 am
            by G

            You wasted our time because we assumed you had a point. It SOUNDED like you were making an assumption, but you really weren’t. When we tried to nail down what you were actually saying, you would back off and say “stop putting words in my mouth” or something like that. If all you’re saying is that Knight was pretty good for an 8 game stretch, that’s not really saying anything.

            Here’s the last thing I’ll say about you using this random 8 game stretch to evaluate Brandon Knight – he got the full-time SG job when Calderon came on, which was 2/4/13. Knight has played in 22 games as the starting SG. He’s had good stretches and bad stretches, just like before. He looks more comfortable as a scorer than as a table setter, sure, but he remains inconsistent. 

          • Apr 10, 20133:56 pm
            by oats

            As I see it, the only way this board serves any kind of purpose is if ideas are challenged. When it seems like the idea is weak I have a tendency to challenge it. I’ll even argue with the way people make a point I happen to agree with. That’s because the purpose of a comments section on a site like this is to foster a place to debate things, and the debate can help us all learn things. So, if you say something stupid I’m not likely to ignore it, I’m going to challenge you on it. If it gets completely left alone then other readers might see it and think it makes sense, and that is the exact opposite of the purpose of this comment section.
             
            Look, you sounded like you were trying to make a point. If you take the time to single out an 8 game stretch, I assume it is supposed to be representative of something. If it isn’t representative of anything it is meaningless, and that means you are not making a point. If you are pointing it out and saying, “He could play like that if given the starting shooting guard spot” then you are making a point. As such, that point is subject to the very criticisms that were levied against it. Namely that Knight is a streaky player so an 8 game stretch is indicative of a hot streak and not a predictor for his success at that position. If you aren’t using that stretch as representative of what Knight could be at shooting guard, and it still sounds like you are, then you are not making a point. It really is that simple.
             
            How many times do I have to say that I don’t hate Knight, and I don’t think he sucks. I’ve defended him from those types of comments numerous times. He’s clearly the 2nd best perimeter player on the team and one of the 5 best players on the roster.I think I’ve made my stance on Brandon Knight abundantly clear, I sure know I’ve said it enough times. Knight is a good player, but far too turnover prone to be a starting point guard. If he shot a really high percentage or if he racked up a bunch of assists then you’d live with that, but he doesn’t do those things. He also looks more natural playing shooting guard, so that’s the position I think he is more likely to become a starting caliber player at. I think his skill set suggests he could develop in to a good starting shooting guard. That said, he has been predictably streaky there so right now he looks more like a bench player to me. That doesn’t mean he won’t get major minutes, he just won’t be relied on to consistently do his thing because he is inconsistent. That still makes him a good player. He’s also a very likable player, one that plays hard and seems to have his head on straight. I like Knight a good deal. That doesn’t change my evaluation of him, but it does mean I’m rooting for him.
             
            As much as you complain about people not reading what is said or having words put in your mouth, you are guilty of far worse versions of it than the things you hate when I do. I’ve sometimes inferred things from your comment that might not have been accurate, like whether or not you were making a point right there. You place words in my mouth that are the exact opposite of what I’ve said, and you do it a ton. You constantly accuse me of hating Knight or thinking he sucks, and every time I say more or less what I’ve said above. If people misrepresenting what you say is actually a concern of yours then stop doing it to me. When you do this it doesn’t even come off like you just misunderstood my point, you are deliberately adding things I didn’t say and I’ve refuted several times.
             
            You also love to accuse me of constantly looking to criticize Knight, and frankly that is a gross misrepresentation of what I’ve been doing. I’m attacking weak ideas, and for whatever reason the Knight fan boys love making unsubstantiated claims regarding Knight. That means I’m constantly criticizing those ideas which in turn comes off as criticizing Knight. I don’t want to criticize Knight, I just often end up doing so in order to swat aside the nonsensical arguments being made in support of him. 
             
            Finally, I don’t mind people contradicting me. I’ve had arguments with most everyone on here at one point or another. I’ve argued with G here a few times, including on this very page. Sometimes I’m wrong and I learn from the argument, and sometimes trying to figure out how to make my argument has helped me to learn something. My problem is when a comment is based on nothing. Actually, that’s not the problem. The thing I don’t like is when the initial comment is based on nothing, someone challenges it, and then the original commenter continues arguing it when there is no basis for the comment in the first place. That’s annoying.

        • Apr 9, 20138:58 am
          by I HATE FRANK

          Reply

          even if it is a 6th man…Jamal Crawford or JR smith role….

          Just make it clear cut…

          • Apr 9, 20132:29 pm
            by oats

            I was more talking long term not having a clear cut role. I don’t know what player he is going to be just yet, although I’m really convinced it isn’t a starting point guard. I don’t think his role is getting bounced around lately that has made him inconsistent though. He was the starting point guard for a year and a half, and for that time he was inconsistent. He moved to shooting guard and was inconsistent. Now he’s bouncing between the positions almost at random, and it is still inconsistent. That’s what happens with streaky shooters, and he has always been streaky. This isn’t something new for him. His current role is poorly defined because he hasn’t shown that he deserves a consistent one.

          • Apr 9, 20133:47 pm
            by Huddy

            So he could handle being a 6th man switching between the two guard spots and having his PT depend on how each guard is playing, injuries, etc, but he can’t handle playing stretches of full games starting at either position because that is just too unbalanced?  The role of a 6th man isn’t really some great level of consistency and moving a small scoring guard between PG and SG isn’t by any means some insane task that no professional basketball player could handle.  What is clear cut but about being a tweener 6th man?  he is assured 25 min or so? he already has that and has his whole career.  Is it that he should be a 6th man that only backs up one guard position?  So basically he just needs less minutes and to pick a position?

          • Apr 9, 20133:56 pm
            by G

            How about we just say he’s inconsistent and stop trying to make up reasons why? Some guys are just streaky players. 

            If we accept that Knight is a streaky player, then it’s actually better for him to be a scorer off the bench, like Crawford and JR Smith. Then you don’t have to rely on him, you just ride him when his shot is falling. The Pistons don’t really have that luxury right now, since they’re thin talent-wise.

  • Apr 8, 20137:34 pm
    by Brandon Knight

    Reply

    Knight is a competitor! He just needs to be consistent. I love it when he is confident and aggressive.

  • Apr 8, 201311:53 pm
    by Brandon Knight

    Reply

    Siva is a heck of a player!

    • Apr 9, 201312:01 am
      by oats

      Reply

      I like him as a college player just fine, but not as a pro. He’s really streaky and his shooting percentages suck. He’s no showed in way too many games for me to be excited about his pro prospects. Great game against Michigan tonight though, I will give him that.

      • Apr 9, 201312:16 am
        by Brandon Knight

        Reply

        His defense was good!

        • Apr 9, 20131:06 am
          by oats

          Reply

          His team plays a full court press so it’s a bit tough to judge his defense. They also kind of funnel things to Dieng a lot, so getting beat off the dribble is not a huge concern for them. I just don’t see him as a lock down guy, and he’d need to be a lock down guy to be a defensive sub. Since his offense kind of stinks on average, he’s just not a guy I’d even draft. If more guys stay in school than I’d expect then that changes things, but he’s still a late 2nd round guy. As a senior he needs to put up more than 10 points a game with 40% shooting from the field to be more than that.

          • Apr 9, 20131:39 pm
            by Huddy

            As a whole their team tends to maul the opposing ball handler.  I don’t see a lot of good defensive plays like jumping passing lanes or blocks, it is more that they slap around recklessly and end up getting away with it in the college game by being labeled tough in your face defenders, where in the pros they would be called for a reach every time.  It was obvious  last night almost the whole team could have fouled out, for every reach called there were two plays like it that could have been the exact same call.  A lot of guys on Louisville play very out of control, you can tell when siva is sliding on his knees keeping his dribble and when guys are leaping over people to try and get rebounds over and over, really sloppy as well as sloppy D, which won’t translate in the NBA.  
             
            Siva isn’t a great finisher as much as he is a hard worker and NBA scouts will see that without a jump shot and he has no chance.  Dieng could be a decent prospect with athleticism and that elbow shot. 

  • Apr 9, 20137:09 am
    by jayg108

    Reply

    sorry folks.  I’m absolutely thrilled they beat the mistake by the lake.  Finally!

    • Apr 9, 20138:37 am
      by G

      Reply

      They play Cleveland tomorrow. What are you talking about?

  • Apr 9, 20133:35 pm
    by Big Rick

    Reply

    Well said Keith. Although I don’t believe Moose is a MAX player, the market will probably dictate otherwise like G said. With that being said its gonna be interesting how free agency goes with this new CBA in place. Unless you’re Marc Cuban, the Lakers or the Nets; teams are projected to be a little more frugal when it comes to overpaying in fear of the harsh luxury taxes. 

    • Apr 9, 20133:55 pm
      by oats

      Reply

      People say that, but they were in full overpaying mode last year. It seems the adjustment teams are making is to be stingier with moving draft picks and players on rookie deals. That seems to be where they have decided to save money, they’ve recognized that rookie deals are where players are most likely to out perform their salary. Once they start pushing the tax line they start looking to get frugal, but on average the contracts being handed out in free agency have been the same as always. I guess it’s possible that will slow down as they finish correcting for the CBA, but it really hasn’t happened yet and I’m unconvinced teams will stop trying so desperately to win the off season that they actually all stop over paying guys.

      • Apr 9, 20134:16 pm
        by Keith

        Reply

        The main problem is that GMs in a lot of cases aren’t around long enough to implement or maintain a long term plan. GMs of bad teams especially are probably on the hot seat, regardless of the talent they may have collected on rookie contracts. These GMs are thus forced to go for win-now moves (read: overpaying for players that will marginally improve wins and losses), even if those moves hamstring finances in the future. Another team may offer Monroe the max, but it will be a short-sighted get.
         
        Giving Monroe the max isn’t just about Monroe for this team, it’s about the financial viability of our moves for the next 5 years (since even a 4 year contract wouldn’t kick in until 2014). If this was OKC, and Monroe was as good as Durant, it would be a no-brainer. But even OKC has moved better players for financial reasons (Harden). While another team may offer Monroe the max to save their GMs job in the short term, we have to honestly gauge whether we can afford all the players we intend to keep in the future. Maybe that means offering Monroe less than the max and letting UFA play out (we can always match, and an offer from another team will still be less than a max from us due to available raises). Maybe that means we don’t jump in with any real big contract free agents, and instead look for more mid-level value.
         
        Whatever happens, we may be able to see this summer what exactly the plans for Joe are. If he’s handing out max contracts to non-max players all over again, we’ll know he’s just fighting for his job. If he takes a more measured approach both to Monroe and FA, it hopefully signals a real long term plan in the works.

        • Apr 9, 20134:40 pm
          by G

          Reply

          OKC is a bad example. They moved Harden because he turned down their extension offer. They already had 2 better players on the team signed for big contracts for the next 5-6 years, and Ibaka’s was just a shade lower. They couldn’t afford to keep all 4.

          • Apr 9, 20135:43 pm
            by tarsier

            Still a bad move. basically everyone agreed they should just keep him through this season for a better shot at a championship and match whatever deal he picked up as an FA. And if, at that point, the money was too oppressive, move him. There would still be a nice market for his services.

          • Apr 10, 20138:59 am
            by G

            Sure, but what I was saying was you can’t compare OKC’s situation with Detroit’s.

  • Apr 9, 20135:18 pm
    by oats

    Reply

    @ I HATE FRANK.   I’ve… been meaning… to ask this… for awhile… What’s… with all the… ellipses? They don’t… seem to have… any meaning… the way you use them…

    • Apr 9, 201311:54 pm
      by ShimmeringWang

      Reply

      I lurk here and read the comments pretty regularly, and I’ve posted a few thoughts (usually just echoing something Oats or Tarsier has said, or just getting angry), though very rarely. 

      The first two or three times I read an I HATE FRANK comment, I noticed I had a really intense reaction: my blood pressure would go up, I would get anxious, and I had an almost unquenchable desire to throw my computer at a wall, curl into the fetal position, and take a massive dose of rohypnol in the hope I would wake up and remember nothing.  

      It took me a while to figure out, but eventually I realized it came down to three things, in this order:

      1) The ellipses. It’s like what they represent as a grammatical/syntactical device becomes mirror in my soul.

      2) The screen name. “ALL CAPS… THREE WORDS…. ONE OF THEM IS A PROPER NOUN… BUT EVERYHING IS ALL CAPS… AND HOW CAN YOU INDICATE A NOUN IS PROPER… WHEN EVERY LETTER IS ALREADY CAPITALIZED…. MAKING IT LOWER CASE WOULD BE SO DUMB I WOULD PROBABLY THROW UP… BUT MAYBE IT WOULD SOMEHOW BE BETTER?”

      3) The content. Unsupported nonsense backed by a strangely arrogant/flippant/confrontation attitude.

      After like the sixth quasi panic attack, I finally came up with a solution:

      I just read all of I HATE FRANK’s comments (as well as his screen name) in Christopher Walken’s voice. The capital letters represent Mr. Walken’s tendency to emphasize strange words, and the ellipses represent his tendency to pause in strange places.

      Crisis: averted. 

      • Apr 10, 20131:15 am
        by oats

        Reply

        First of all, some of what I HATE FRANK says makes sense. It’s not always head scratching stuff, he sometimes makes some really nice points. There’s quite a bit that I argue with pretty forcefully, but he’s not one of the people that when I see him post something I just assume I’m going to disagree with it before I read it. I mean, after that I read it and I often disagree, but that’s not really the point I’m trying to make. He’s really not that bad all things considered.
         
        As for the ellipses, I’m mostly just trying to figure them out. I get that a lot of people have their little quirks with their speech or their writing, that’s just part of how we communicate. I tend to have run on sentences myself. I’m definitely no stranger to oddly phrased writing. I just don’t understand what the ellipsis means when he uses it. Sometimes it separates two very distinct thoughts, and sometimes it just pops up in the middle of a sentence with no apparent purpose. Sometimes I see it and think it represents the words that would actually make his sentence make sense but are oddly missing. That last sentence sounded mean and it really wasn’t intended too. I’m just referring to the occasional post where he has to go back and explain what he meant because he wrote it too fast and I can’t follow the thing. Maybe they don’t really have a meaning, and if that’s the case I wonder why they are used at all. It’s slowly becoming a kind of mystery for me.

        • Apr 10, 20138:23 am
          by G

          Reply

          I end up with a lot of run-on sentences and unnecessary commas. I also capitalize words unnecessarily because I like people to read what I write with the same emphasis as if I were speaking. 

          That said, I have problems getting through some of his responses (I think I asked him to repeat his response in English once), and maybe the Christopher Walken thing will help. 

        • Apr 10, 20139:25 am
          by tarsier

          Reply

          I think they just replace most punctuation: commas, periods, colons, semicolons. Really, pretty much everything except question marks, exclamation points, and apostrophes.

    • Apr 10, 20134:02 pm
      by I HATE FRANK

      Reply

      LOL… I really don’t know

      Its a bad habit 

      • Apr 10, 20134:22 pm
        by oats

        Reply

        I usually understand you fine, but they really stand out. Like I said, I’m in no position to judge people for their idiosyncrasies when they type because I have more than a few of them myself. I’ve just been wondering if there was more to it than just a bad habit. Thanks for the explanation, even if it doesn’t really explain much.

  • Apr 9, 201311:46 pm
    by haydzzz

    Reply

    I know its off topic but any of you guys see trey burke get up for that block??
    The way everybody goes on about his athleticism i didnt think he was capable of that 

    • Apr 10, 20131:26 am
      by oats

      Reply

      Yeah, Burke is a much better athlete than he is given credit for. There is this idea that short guys have to be super quick and athletic to make up for their height. I think it started with that idea and wanting to express that Burke wasn’t that Ty Lawson, Rajon Rondo, or Chris Paul type of athlete. So the short hand sort of slowly transitioned from not an elite athlete, to limited athletically. The problem is that limited athletically is what you say about bad athletes, so then it started in to calling him a bad athlete. The way people talk about Burke’s athleticism is nonsense. He isn’t limited athletically, and he definitely isn’t a bad athlete. He’s a good but not great athlete. If you think he has to be an outstanding athlete to make it in the NBA at his height, that isn’t good enough. Personally I think the hindrance for short players is less athleticism and more talent. The talent has to be there to overcome their height. I’d say Burke qualifies as talented enough to be a productive starter.

    • Apr 10, 20138:57 am
      by Vic

      Reply

      Right I’ve been trying to tell people this all year. Trey is not unathletic, and he has a 65 wingspan that you could see in that block. He was lower than the man he blocked but he still got his hand on the ball

  • Apr 9, 201311:57 pm
    by gmehl

    Reply

    Did anyone see Cleveland’s awesome tank job against Indiana after being up 20 with only 9 minutes to go in the game. If only we could tank correctly like that. Oh i forgot meaningless wins where guys like Stuckey and CV who’ve played shit all year decide to show signs of a pulse are just awesome to witness.

    • Apr 10, 20138:25 am
      by G

      Reply

      It’s April. Time for Stuckey to come out of his coffin and rise again.

  • Apr 10, 201312:34 am
    by Oakk

    Reply

    free agent buy-in: 
    Andre Iguodala for 4400m / 4yrs (SF)

    draft:
    Oladipo or Mclemore (If we are lucky to have top 2 pick, we could have Mclemore)

    These two step are the factors relatively under our control,  and will boost us in next season.  

  • Apr 10, 20132:25 am
    by Big Rick

    Reply

    LOL @ the comment right before your last Oats. Your break down of the (…) ….
    CLASSIC.  

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