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Helpless Pistons improve lottery odds with 105-82 loss to Timberwolves

J.J. Barea dashed past Jose Calderon on the perimeter. Charlie Villanueva flashed high above the 3-point line to defend a screen Barea never used, and Jason Maxiell stood flat-footed near the free-throw line before turning around too late to catch a streaking Barea, who made a layup.

Lawrence Frank wants a timeout. He may talk about the help,” Pistons broadcaster George Blaha said. “Wasn’t that a great movie?”

92 Comments

  • Mar 26, 201311:45 pm
    by MNM

    Reply

    They got that loss back from the Charlotte game

  • Mar 26, 201311:48 pm
    by MrCarter

    Reply

    No grades??

  • Mar 26, 201311:59 pm
    by domnick

    Reply

    what grade do you expect? no grades are better than Fs

    • Mar 27, 201312:12 am
      by MrCarter

      Reply

      I just always found them interesting to read

  • Mar 27, 201312:34 am
    by I HATE FRANK

    Reply

    And Not too long ago some posters here was ready to give Calderon 10 mil per year

    • Mar 27, 201312:52 am
      by Vince

      Reply

      Name a few. Actually, name one. Just one PP commenter who wrote, black on white “Calderon should re-sign with the Pistons for 10M/Y.” 

      Calderon is a one-dimensional player, he is a good player, but one-dimensional nonetheless. He’d be luck to get anything over 7M+ per year. Personally I’d sign him to a 10M/2y contract. 

      • Mar 27, 20131:19 am
        by gmehl

        Reply

        Yes i remember guys talking about signing him for between $6m-7m per. I also recall someone saying to front load his deal but i NEVER recall anyone saying to sign him for $10m per season.

    • Mar 27, 20138:19 am
      by G

      Reply

      I don’t want Calderon at $10M per year. If that’s the price, let him walk. I don’t think ANYBODY wants him at $10M per year though. Calderon was the only guy hitting shots in this game, by the way.

      • Mar 27, 20138:24 am
        by Derek AKA Redeemed

        Reply

        Agreed.  An older pg capable of running the offense and doubling as a scoring dummy for the opposing team, should not be a high ticket item.

      • Mar 27, 20138:48 am
        by G

        Reply

        Don’t get me wrong, I’d like the Pistons to re-sign him, just not at that price. And his defense, while bad, isn’t THAT bad. Monroe’s is worse, for instance, and Stuckey when guarding SF’s is also worse.

        • Mar 27, 20139:08 am
          by Derek AKA Redeemed

          Reply

          I like him less and less as our starter.  If Calderon can be retained as a reasonably priced backup pg/mentor, cool.  If not, let him kick rocks.

          • Mar 27, 20139:23 am
            by G

            Do you have a favorable alternative to the starting PG spot? Next year I mean, obviously he’s the best we have this year.

          • Mar 27, 20139:28 am
            by gmehl

            Jarrett Jack would be worth a look

          • Mar 27, 20139:30 am
            by Vince

            As much as I like Jarrett Jack, I have a feeling he’ll be too expensive.

          • Mar 27, 20139:51 am
            by Huddy

            Jack is good, but not as much of a floor general and like Vince said will probably be looking for a high contract since he has performed well.  I don’t see any reasonable FAs that could replace Calderon.  10mil is too steep, but if we can get him at a reasonable level we should.  Letting him run the offense and show what our team can do with a healthy (hopefully starting) Drummond, Monroe, (hopefully improved) Knight, plus whatever off season moves we make will make it that much easier to draw in a future PG when Joses time is done.  If he plays 2-3 years I would hope the team will have come into its own in a way that makes it an attractive destination for a new good PG when Jose is done.  Even if our draft position makes one of the PGs the best option I would rather Burke or Smart work with Jose, so keeping him should be a priority.  I see a lot of people saying 5 a year, which I like, but even more like 6-7 is ok since he is pretty valuable on the trade market for contenders if we need more space in the future.

          • Mar 27, 20139:54 am
            by G

            Problems with Jack – he’s not that much younger than Calderon, he’s not really a good defender either, and he’s not nearly as good a passer. And the Pistons would be paying for one of his best seasons, which is helped by the fact that he plays for the Warriors.

            Jeff Teague is an RFA that might be worth seeing how high Atlanta would go to match. 

             

          • Mar 28, 20138:27 am
            by Derek AKA Redeemed

            Jarrett Jack is a good alternative.  He is a bigger and stronger defender.  With his size and strength he can guard ones and twos.  He probably won’t leave Golden State.

            DJ Augustine would be a good alternative off the bench.  He can run and offense.  He can shoot.  He has good active hands on D.  He is probably more of a defensive liability than Calderon.

            Alec Burke is a big (6’6″) young (21 y/o) pg with potential.  He may be worth the look.  The Jazz were shopping him at one point. 

            Greivis Vasquez is a big (6’6″) young (26 y/o) pg.  He is already capable of running a team and playing at a high level.  Hornets, uh Pelicans would be idiots to let this kid go.  Let’s hope for stupidity.  After all, they are changing their name to the Pelicans.

            Eric Bledsoe is a young (23 y/o) pg. with ferocious defensive ability and explosive athleticism.  His opportunities to shine dwindle with each game Chris Paul suits up.  Once the Clips sign Paul, they may look to get a cheaper alternative.

  • Mar 27, 201312:37 am
    by C-Foe

    Reply

    Never thought I’d see the headline “Timberwolves rout Pistons” without Kevin Love playing.  I guess it could be worse, it could have been “Bobcats crush Pistons”. 

    • Mar 27, 201312:54 am
      by Vince

      Reply

      “D-League All Stars dismantle Detroit Pistons in an embarrassing 147-89 home loss”

      • Mar 27, 20132:16 am
        by C-Foe

        Reply

        Nice one Vince.  Wait, aren’t the Bobcats a bunch of D-Leaguers anyway? 

        • Mar 27, 20132:22 am
          by Vince

          Reply

          Hahahaha well there definitely is D-League talent there

    • Mar 27, 20139:17 am
      by MIKEYDE248

      Reply

      I only got to watch a couple minutes of the game somewhere just after half time and turned it off when the T-Wolves started pulling away.  It wasn’t until this morning that I heard that Love wasn’t even playing.  I think this loss is worse than if they would have lost to the Bobcat.

  • Mar 27, 20131:13 am
    by Cliff

    Reply

    dan, in a game such as tonight’s, i’m glad you did yourself a favour and not bother posting grades. watching the game was already torture, writing about it would no doubt be unthinkable.

  • Mar 27, 20132:02 am
    by AU Examiner

    Reply

    Time to go Joe Dumars.

    I am tired of your spin and excuses. You are responsible for this mess called the Detroit Pistons.

  • Mar 27, 20132:56 am
    by oats

    Reply

    I have to say, Frank’s minutes allocation was pretty spot on for tanking. 23 minutes to Middleton, 12 to Slava, 12 to English. If I was going for full on tanking I might have cut in to Jose Calderon’s 32 minutes for more Brandon Knight turnovers minutes at point guard (sorry, I couldn’t resist). All in all, Frank did a good job fighting for lottery position.
     
    Is anyone else getting to be really fond of Middleton? He looked pretty good again, and I think he’s my favorite of the rookies not named Drummond. Singler looks to be better than him right now, but the gap isn’t that big and Middleton’s ceiling seems to be quite a bit higher. 

    • Mar 27, 20132:57 am
      by oats

      Reply

      I placed a slash through turnovers in that first paragraph but it doesn’t seem to have stayed in when I hit post. Odd.

      • Mar 27, 201310:02 am
        by tarsier

        Reply

        formatting does not work well in the comments section

      • Mar 27, 201310:17 am
        by G

        Reply

        I’ve tried to do that before and been unsuccessful. I think the BOLD, italics, and underline all work, not sure why strike-thru doesn’t.

        • Mar 27, 201310:18 am
          by G

          Reply

          Nope, underline doesn’t work either. Weird.

          • Mar 27, 201311:39 am
            by tarsier

            neither do the bullet point or numbered lists

    • Mar 27, 20134:50 am
      by gmehl

      Reply

      Yeah Middleton has come a long nicely over the stretch since Drummond has been out. He needs to bulk up like most rookies and if he can just gain more confidence in his shot than he just might pan out.

    • Mar 27, 20138:22 am
      by G

      Reply

      Middleton’s offense is better I think, and he’s more athletic, but he doesn’t do all the things Singler does yet. 

  • Mar 27, 20134:39 am
    by Gareth Masters

    Reply

    $10m over 2 years sounds about right for Jose. And I would still sign him, it’s hardly his fault out there.

    The end of the season can’t come soon enough now, this is basically impossible to watch now.

  • Mar 27, 20134:39 am
    by Paul Williams

    Reply

    Hahahahaha, further proof that George Blaha is THE greatest sports announcer in, at the very least, Detroit sports.

  • Mar 27, 20134:40 am
    by Gareth Masters

    Reply

    ESPECIALLY in the early hours here in the United Kingdom, jeeeezzz….

  • Mar 27, 20134:46 am
    by Gareth Masters

    Reply

    All I can say is at least we are tanking properly this year – shame there is no real prize in the draft though. Classic state of affairs..

    • Mar 27, 201310:11 am
      by tarsier

      Reply

      That’s what they said two years ago. And look at Irving, well, at least when he’s healthy.

  • Mar 27, 20135:13 am
    by Jodi Jezz

    Reply

    Hopefully Dumars makes it a mission to find us a good coach next season…My Pistons are looking bad right now…

    • Mar 27, 20138:30 am
      by Derek AKA Redeemed

      Reply

      Who do you like as a replacement for L Frank? 

      I like:

      Jerry Sloan – I like the tight half court offense and controlled fast break system he runs. He could whip the team into shape.  He has the hall of fame level career that brings instant credibility.

      &

      Stan Van Gundy – His teams play hustling defense and really solid pick and roll half court sets.  My concern is his proclivity for throwing his team and management under the bus in the media.  The Pistons are young enough for him to mold like a college team minus the dead weight definitely need to cut.

      • Mar 27, 20139:19 am
        by MIKEYDE248

        Reply

        I’m not sure either of these coached would be an upgrade.  Never like either Van Gundy and sloan would be a latteral move.  I would rather see Frank get one more year than trade him in for another coach we’ll all be saying should be fired for the next two years.

        • Mar 27, 20139:34 am
          by G

          Reply

          Riiiiight…

        • Mar 27, 201310:01 am
          by Derek AKA Redeemed

          Reply

          Our lack of talent makes me want to give Frank another shot after this critical offseason.  I just can’t take another season like this.  As for Sloan being a lateral move, we’ll have to agree to disagree.  Sloan has a track record that states otherwise.

          Stan Van is something of a panic artist, but he has shown an knack for getting his teams to place really hard.

        • Mar 27, 201310:16 am
          by tarsier

          Reply

          Sloan would be a lateral move?!?! The only coach currently in the league who is defnitely better is Poppovich. A case could be made for Adelman, Karl, Thibodeau, and a couple others. But if the Pistons could get Sloan that would be a HUGE upgrade.

          The issue, of course, would be convincing him to take the job. 

          • Mar 27, 201310:56 am
            by G

            Unsure if he was being sarcastic or not. That last bit, “I’d rather trade Frank in for another coach we’ll all be saying should be fired” makes me thing yes.

            Sloan would be fantastic, but he might be done with coaching.

          • Mar 27, 201312:13 pm
            by jerrific

            I wanna give him the benefit of the doubt and say that he meant no amount of coaching can turn this talent into a good team. At least I hope that’s what he meant. 
             

          • Mar 27, 201312:23 pm
            by G

            That could also be true. I disagree, but they definitely need talent more than they need a coaching change.

          • Mar 27, 20131:42 pm
            by MIKEYDE248

            That was kinda my thinking that unless we are going to make a significant coaching upgrade, why bother.  I would like the revolving door at the coaching position to stop.  That might be one of the things holding this team back and also making coaches not want to come here.

            I use to love watching Utah thru the 90′s and use to always cheer for them, but the thing I remember most about them is that the never won a championship and always seemed to choke in games that they should have won.  Sloan may be a better coach than Frank, but I think he would just be another stepping stone, not someone to bring us a championship.

          • Mar 27, 20132:04 pm
            by G

            I think the choking in the playoffs had more to do with their star player getting a little weak-kneed in big moments. Plus, he ran into the ’97 & ’98 Bulls. I think Sloan is better than all but maybe a couple coaches currently in the league.

  • Mar 27, 20138:21 am
    by Derek AKA Redeemed

    Reply

    The team is disheartening to watch and games are so irrelevant at this point.  I’m looking forward to a total team makeover.  While I think Frank is a straight shooting knowledgeable coach, I’ve reach a point where I don’t think it’s working at all.

    Drummond played mini minutes for far too long.

    Max played extended minutes for too long.

    Starters and bench players played the same 20 to 25 minute rotations for to long into the season.

    We went entire games failing to make adjustments when teams went on significant runs.

    Too often we called time outs and failed to execute with anything that resembled precision.

    The team played lackluster at the start of the season, lost focus around December, and checked out after the Prince trade.

    We need a need crop of talent.
    We very likely need a new voice in the locker room.

    My draft wishlist includes

    Ben Mclemore & Victor Oladipo

  • Mar 27, 20138:24 am
    by G

    Reply

    This is a team that desperately needs a shot blocker down low. Minnesota basically ran a layup line on the Pistons. Without Drummond down there, guys like Barea can take it to the hole with impunity. It’s embarrassing.

  • Mar 27, 20139:03 am
    by jmak

    Reply

    One thing that I’ve noticed with L Frank is that we will run plays that work very well in the first quarter, and then our starters rest up, and when our starters come back in, we never run those working plays again. We have had some fantastic first quarters where we are cutting and screening, but then it’s like he forgets to call plays after that. 

    I don’t see us trying to run those same plays and other teams just adjusting and stopping. I just see us not even trying to run those plays anymore.

    It’s tough to say whether any coach would have made a huge difference, but Frank just seems like the perfect assistant coach kind of guy — tons of knowledge and seems to plan well, but doesn’t have the in game coaching that winning teams need. 

  • Mar 27, 20139:09 am
    by vic

    Reply

    Pistons Makeover – take your pick.

    New Coach: Bill Laimbeer or Jerry Sloan

    1st Draft Pick: Otto Porter or Ben McLemore

    2nd Draft Pick: Adriean Payne or Nate Wolters
     
    Free Agent: Tyreke Evans or Paul Millsap or Trevor Ariza 

    • Mar 27, 20139:40 am
      by Vince

      Reply

      Is Sloan still willing to coach? If so why would he come here? 

      I’d personally go after Laimbeer, he’ll put some grit into this team, I was disappointed when we didn’t pursue Woodson/Adelman/Laimbeer/Avery when they were available.

      1st Draft Pick: Marcus Smart or Trey Burke
      2nd Draft Pick: Patric Young or Gorgui Dieng
      3rd Draft Pick:  Ray McCallum or Solomon Hill

      Free Agents: Trevor Ariza/Corey Brewer/Timofey Mozgov/Josh McRoberts 

    • Mar 27, 20139:55 am
      by Jacob

      Reply

      Draft Noel if he’s there. Sign Brewer.

    • Mar 27, 201310:10 am
      by jmak

      Reply

      I wouldn’t be entirely surprised if we ended up signing Chauncey and put Knight back at the PG position. I’m not sure many teams are going to want Chauncey, and bringing him back would allow for the Pistons to rehash about how good we were not too long ago. — Not sure if Chauncey only wants to play for a contender or if he hates the Pistons now. 

      Not a great free agent class this year, which is why the BG trade. Waste of a first round pick since there isn’t anything great to sign — We could still make some sort of sign and trade, though.  

      • Mar 27, 201310:11 am
        by jmak

        Reply

        which is why I hate the BG trade***

      • Mar 27, 201310:27 am
        by tarsier

        Reply

        why would the pistons want chauncey at this point?

        • Mar 27, 201310:34 am
          by jmak

          Reply

          If they plan on playing BK at the PG, then I would assume that they would want a veteran guard who would know his role. 

          • Mar 27, 201311:43 am
            by tarsier

            Why? Do PGs historically develop better when they have well past their prime veterans on the team with them?

            And even if so, why Billups and not one of countless others? 

        • Mar 27, 201310:35 am
          by jmak

          Reply

          A lot of it probably hinges on how much Jose gets paid this off season. 

        • Mar 27, 201310:45 am
          by jmak

          Reply

          Teams are also valuing the ability to maneuver — smaller contracts, even if they’re stop gap guys. They probably value Chauncey over other veteran PGs. They might also keep Bynum, but I don’t see that happening IF they plan on having BK be our PG. Too many variables at the moment — draft position, trades. 

          • Mar 27, 201312:12 pm
            by G

            Prefer they bring back Chauncey… to coach.

  • Mar 27, 20131:42 pm
    by Gabe

    Reply

    i alsmost went to this game, glad I didn’t bc wit was a pathetic excuse for a home game, haven’t won one in about 40 days 

  • Mar 27, 20132:51 pm
    by allweatherfanaddict

    Reply

    Hi, first time commenter, long time follower.

  • Mar 27, 20133:59 pm
    by allweatherfanaddict

    Reply

    Jose has been one of our best players since he got here. I love defensive guys but for what this guy does he deserves a pass. Unless CP3 is coming, this is the best man for the job for several reasons. A: JC is the type of pg that can make a Monroe/Drummond tandem work, an outstanding passer who can spread the floor with efficient 3pt shooting. B: This team needs a leader on and off the court, badly. C: He can teach BK7 alot while making him EARN the starting spot. D: If BK7 does earn the job (and i hope he does), JC would make a great backup, or trading chip. I cant wait to see Jose and Drummond together with an improved roster. Here’s another thing, imagine how good Miami would be with those two guys and their big 3. I think we have Bosh trumped with Monroe, he dominates him. Moose’s jumper WILL improve. Now we need to get a heck of a lot better on the wings, and we will get one in the draft, and most likely the other via trade/FA. Maxiell is a true piston, but hes not a starter. I hope he comes back as a reserve behind Moose at PF. Singler would also make a good reserve. Stuck and JJ should be used as trade bait, but if they stay they make good backups. If Rodney could shoot 3′s better he would be an ALL-STAR, and he does seem to be improving. He should be in the guard rotation off the bench. I like WB but we cant have 2 guards that cant shoot 3′s well, so Stuck stays until we can upgrade. I am not giving up on him or BK as our future PG. I am gonna wait one more year on them. PG is not our biggest need. Wings and a backup center, preferably a veteran that plays great D. Ben Wallace? I also think Slava has a lot of upside as a defender, he keeps getting better and he will probably eventually ”get it”. All in all, I am very excited about the young core we have now and the team’s flexibility going forward.

    • Mar 27, 20134:33 pm
      by G

      Reply

      Did you say Stuckey seems to be improving? At shooting threes? Adding a 3 won’t make Stuckey an All Star unless he turns into Ray Allen or something.

      I think 3 positions need attention in the off-season: PG, SF and back up big – either C or PF. Whether they re-up with Calderon, go after a FA like Teague or Paul, or use their draft pick on Burke, the Pistons need a starting caliber PG, and Knight & Stuckey don’t fit the bill. Singler should come off the bench, I agree, and I like the idea of getting Speights as a PF/C off the bench.

      On the whole though, I think this team is a lot farther off than you think it is. The #1 need is actually talent, and if that means drafting a SG & sliding Knight to the bench, so be it. 

      • Mar 28, 20136:42 am
        by allweatherfanaddict

        Reply

        There IS a lot of talent on this team, in the form of upside. These players are so young and have been so misused. Almost no player on this team has been used the way they should be. Moose is a PF, Drummond is a starter, Max and Kyle are reserves, Stuck is a backup PG, BK7 is a 6th man but for now our best SG, Jerebko should be playing in certain situations,and on and on. The pieces don’t fit right now, because a couple are missing, but the foundation for a great team for years to come are here. We do need a very talented player on the wing and another solid player in the front court, I agree. I didn’t say anything about Speights, but I was thinking it. And Burke? Have you looked at his tournament stats so far? He wont even be Brandon Knight, and I am a UM fan. I don’t care if he was Isiaah Thomas Jr from the university of Detroit, he will be the second coming of Mateen Cleaves. We are not drafting a barely 6 footer, unless he actually was Isiaah. Help IS on the way. Pieces WILL fall into place, and we will be very competitive starting next year. I could be wrong about Stucks shooting, maybe a little wishful thinking there, but he wouldn’t have to be a GREAT 3pt shooter to be better than Ray Allen. Rodneys defense, versatility,and strength would make him a better ALL-AROUND player. IF he could shoot better, but he doesn’t. If he could shoot at least 34% from deep, then he would be one of the better 2s in a league that’s now pretty weak at that position. Just saying. And sorry for the hypothetical Stuckey stuff. I really don’t see him in our ideal future. If we cant get CP3, or re-sign Calderon, I love the Billups idea. Teague would not be any meaningful improvement over BK7. Knight will be a Jason Terry type, but more athletic, and it’s funny they both recently got dunked on really hard. Knight is only 21, very athletic, intelligent and hard working, plays D, shoots very well and is a true blue PISTON. I will enjoy watching him grow. Thank you very much for your input G.

        • Mar 28, 20138:05 am
          by G

          Reply

          Hang on. I got past your first couple sentences where you said there’s a lot of talent on this team but more than half the starters should come of the bench. To me that says “lack of talent”.

          • Mar 28, 201310:19 am
            by G

            To sum up using different words, Stuckey & Knight are bench players, Jerebko is super-limited, and Maxiell and Singler are also bench players. That leaves Drummond & Monroe, and Calderon if the Pistons re-up with him. The bench would be Stuckey, Knight and Singler, and sometimes Jerebko if the situation is right. 

            I brought up Speights because I like him as a backup big man. Maxiell is gone, Speights is better. 

            For Stuckey to match the current version of Ray Allen, he would need a lot more that a 34% 3-pt shot. Stuckey doesn’t play good defense, and Ray Allen’s isn’t that bad. So defensively they’re about equal, maybe a slight edge to Allen. Offensively Allen’s shooting is still excellent, .450 FG%/.424 3PT%/.881 FT%. Stuckey’s is TERRIBLE at .398/.269/.793.

            Jeff Teague would be a HUGE improvement over Knight at PG. Look at the numbers:
            Teague – 14.8 ppg on .454/.371/.887 shooting, 7 assists, 3 turnovers and plays great D
            Knight – 13.7 ppg on .411/.367/.738 shooting, 4.1 assists on 2.8 turnovers and plays decent D. Teague shoots better across the board, gives you more assists with the same turnovers, and he plays slightly better D.

      • Mar 28, 20139:10 am
        by Derek AKA Redeemed

        Reply

        You mentioned Teague as a legit starting pg.  I agree, he has developed into a really good floor general.  He sucked in his first two years.  The big knock was the lack of effort and aptitude.  It took time for him to develop, just like it’s going to take time for BK7 to develop.

        An argument for getting Teague actually strengthens the argument for letting BK7 develop.  Unlike a number of commentors, I think BK7 can and will be a standout pg in the league.  Unlike many commentors, I’m not impressed with Trey Burke.  He looks a lot like a poor man’s DJ Augustine.

        • Mar 28, 20139:57 am
          by G

          Reply

          Differences between Teague & Knight – Knight was basically handed the starting PG spot off the bat, with Stuckey there to take some of the load off. Teague didn’t get the starting job until last year. Teague’s first year with the full-time job he averaged nearly 5 assists to 2 turnovers. Knight has never had even a 2 to 1 ast/to ratio (college, high school, never). When Teague was given his shot, he proved he could handle the PG. Knight had his shot, he proved he couldn’t handle it.

          Burke actually looks like a rich man’s DJ Augustine. He shoots better, gets more assists, more steals, despite the fact that Augustine (let it not be forgotten) played with Kevin Durant. And it’s not exactly like Augustine is a bum either (although I’d be hoping for better with a high pick). His last 2 years in Charlotte he averaged about 13 ppg and 6 assists without turning it over a ton.

  • Mar 28, 201310:26 am
    by Derek AKA Redeemed

    Reply

    I guess it’s a matter of perspective.  Atlanta had old man Bibby walk running the point with Teague on the bench incapable of trying to figure things out.  For two years Teague was unable to break into the lineup or get consistent time because his practice efforts suggested he needed to be on the bench.

    Knight was thrusted into the starting position after an injury to the starter.  He has shown signs while working through mistakes.  Knight proved he could lead a team as a scoring guard pg in high school & college.  And he will prove it again in the pros.

    Burke and Augustin had nearly identical stats in college. 

    Augustin stats 16.9 pts, 2.9 rbs, 6.2 asts
    Burke stats 16.8 pts, 3.2 rbs, 5.7 asts

    I don’t expect much difference in the pros, but I’m willing to give Trey about 3 yrs to develop.

    • Mar 28, 201310:48 am
      by G

      Reply

      Look at their sophomore years (you know, when both had better teammates):
      Augustin – 19.2 ppg on .439/.381/.783 shooting, 5.8 assists, 1.2 steals
      Burke – 18.8 ppg on .470/.383/.801 shooting, 6.7 assists and 1.6 steals

      Scoring PG’s have a much better time in college than in the pros. In college Teague was probably the best player on his team, and I know Knight was the best on his. You usually don’t see big assist numbers in college by NBA quality players because that star player is usually his team’s best option. My point about the Teague vs. Knight argument is when both were given an opportunity to earn the starting PG spot, Teague earned it and Knight lost it.

       

      • Mar 28, 201311:04 am
        by G

        Reply

        That last paragraph might not have been clear, so to elaborate, when Teague got a shot at an NBA starting PG spot, he proved he could play PG in the NBA. Knight has shown no aptitude for the PG position in the NBA. Yes, Knight showed he had talent in college. That’s why the Pistons drafted him at #8. Doesn’t mean he’s an NBA PG.

        By the way, who was the injured starter who “thrust Knight” into the starting role? I don’t remember that. If we’re making excuses for him, then the lock out would be a better one, except that Knight hasn’t really improved this year. He’s had nearly a full season, a full off-season, and then much of this season to get his PG game into shape and it never happened. Compare Knight’s stats this year with Teague’s last year & Teague’s numbers still hold up.

        • Mar 28, 201311:56 am
          by Derek AKA Redeemed

          Reply

          A couple of factors resulted in Knight being put into the starting role.  Stuckey’s contract situation was being resolved and Ben Gordon got injured.  Knight has been receiving on the job training instead of sitting and watching like Teague.

          I’m not making excuses for Knight.  In fact I will readily admit he has struggled, but I am not convinced that he is a failed experiment.  His intangibles (smarts, work ethic, high character, willingness to hustle, willingness to play through pain, etc.) suggests he is worth developing.

          Compare Knight’s second year stats to Teague’s third year stats.  No.  I would prefer to compare Teague’s 3rd year production vs Knight’s 3rd year production.

          • Mar 28, 201312:47 pm
            by G

            Why compare their 3rd years? The minutes don’t add up. Jeff Teague saw 1,682 minutes of court time his first 2 years in the league. Knight saw 2,129 his rookie season.

            Alright, compare their 2nd years. But use their per 36 min numbers and advanced stats, since Knight played more than double the minutes Teague played his second year:
            Teague per 36min – 13.5 on .438/.375/.794 shooting, 5.2 assists & 2.4 turnovers.
            Teague adv. stats – 14.6 PER, .521 TS%, 23.3 AST%, 15.6 TOV%, .083 WS/48min
            Knight per 36min – 15.8 on .411/.367/.738 shooting, 4.7 assists & 3.2 turnovers.
            Knight adv. stats – 12.7 PER, .517 TS%, 22.3 AST%, 17.2 TOV%, .026 WS/48min

            So despite having WAY more reps (Knight logged over 2000 minutes his first year, Teague only 719), Knight had a lower PER, shot the ball worse, had a lower assist rate & a higher turnover rate, and was much lower in Win Shares per 48 minutes. If you compare Knight’s 2nd year to Teague’s 3rd (at which point Teague had STILL logged fewer NBA minutes than Knight), the numbers are brutally in Teague’s favor.

            Stuckey wasn’t going to be the starting PG, that’s why they drafted Knight. He started the first game at SG, it’s not like he was out. And since there was the lockout, his contract situation wasn’t exactly keeping him out of team practices. Ben Gordon has NEVER been a PG, the Pistons weren’t looking to him to run the point. It was always Knight.

          • Mar 28, 20132:12 pm
            by Derek AKA Redeemed

            It takes time to develop.
            It took Teague 3 years.
            Give Knight the same time.

          • Mar 28, 20132:46 pm
            by G

            That’s my point! Going by minutes, Knight’s had more time that Teague. Not all years are created equal, but you’re saying Teague’s first 2 years when he averaged 10 & 13 min a game are the same as Knight’s first 2 when he averaged 31 & 32 minutes a game.

      • Mar 28, 201311:42 am
        by G

        Reply

        Last thing & then I’m done – Augustin has been pretty solid when given a starting role. He averaged 14 & 6 with under 2 turnovers his first year as starting PG, and considering that was on the Bobcats, not too bad. His problem has been his offense hasn’t translated to the NBA (shooting barely 40% from the field), and that’s where Burke is better.

        • Mar 28, 201311:48 am
          by Derek AKA Redeemed

          Reply

          We don’t know if Burke’s offense translates better in the NBA.  At least we don’t know yet, right?

          • Mar 28, 201312:57 pm
            by G

            We don’t, but Burke has better shot in college than Augustin did.

        • Mar 28, 20133:45 pm
          by allweatherfanaddict

          Reply

          I recently looked up career stats for the best ten or so PGs in the league right now. Since you are so invested in stats,( Frylock ) check this out: In their 3rd year, almost everyone of them improved the most, and exploded from there. So, seriously take the time to look it up for yourself, it will be worth it.  I expect Brandon to do the same next year.

          • Mar 28, 20134:20 pm
            by G

            I am a fan of stats, and you know what else I noticed? All the top PG’s averaged over 5 assists by their second year and had at least a 2 to 1 assist/turnover ratio. That is to say, they all showed APTITUDE at running the offense in their second year. Knight shows no aptitude for the position, he hasn’t even improved.

  • Mar 28, 20132:06 pm
    by Derek AKA Redeemed

    Reply

    Burke’s better shot in college doesn’t necessarily mean he will be productive in the pros.  We shall see.  Scott Machado is another pg both of those players remind me of, though Scott may be better than both players when it comes to running a team.

  • Mar 28, 20137:45 pm
    by allweatherfanaddict

    Reply

    Well, it is kind of hard to get assists when guys don’t make shots. He doesn’t have Korver to pass to. There should be a new, more accurate stat for playmaking ability. If a guy creates a scoring opportunity he should be credited whether the reciever converts or not. The standard stats of the game are very primitive, although improving. Defense is 50% of the game and there is really no way of telling exactly how good a guy is defensively by today’s statistics. It’s word of mouth, really. If stats told the whole story there would be no need for scouting, but that’s another story.  I am not saying Knight will be a superstar, but I expect him to improve, give him at least another full season before you say things like Jeffrey friggin Teague is WAY better, cause the last time they faced each other JT was 2-9 with 5 TOs. They pretty much cancelled each other out, but Brandon did have the edge on him. And how did they fare in the skills challenge, with the world watching? That’s real stuff. All that aside, there was a 16 game stretch this season that BK7 averaged 18.9 PPG, a little later Jose came, and soon he started setting new career highs in points like every week. OK a few weeks. Then he got hurt. He is a perfectionist, and he struggles at times because of it. And now he has a big chip on his shoulder. Watch out.

    • Mar 29, 20138:26 am
      by G

      Reply

      Heard this excuse before. Detroit shoots .444 FG%, which is pretty close to league average. Charlotte is the worst shooting team in the league, yet Kemba Walker is racking up 5.6 assists per game. 

    • Mar 29, 20138:40 am
      by G

      Reply

      I’m hearing a lot of excuses… And then you picked one game & used it to explain how Knight was better. How about every time they went head to head? They basically score the same except Teague had a better FG%, and that PG stuff I was talking about? Teague wastes Knight. They basically have the same turnovers, but Teague gets nearly twice as many assists. 

      Knight’s defense looks decent so far, but Teague’s is good too. He’s averaging basically 15 & 7 while getting nearly the same turnovers as Knight, & shooting the ball better.

      The skills challenge? Are you serious? THAT’S your barometer for a good PG? Then Tony Parker must be the worst PG in the NBA! You’re getting ridiculous homey. THEY DON’T PLAY AGAINST A DEFENSE IN THE SKILLS CHALLENGE! Knight’s problem is his handle is weak and he makes bad decisions that result in turnovers, none of which would get exposed in the skills challenge. C’mon.

    • Mar 29, 20138:59 am
      by G

      Reply

      One more thing about Teague before you say he & Knight are basically the same player – ESPN ranked the top FA’s by position a month ago (written by one of the Basketball Prospectus guys) & Teague was the #3 PG after Paul & Jennings, and ahead of Calderon (who is clearly a better PG than Knight). 

      • Mar 29, 201310:57 am
        by oats

        Reply

        I prefer Teague to Jennings actually, especially if price is being taken in to account. Jennings shoots 39.4% from the floor. Not good. I actually think Calderon is a better point guard than either, but not by a lot and he is too old to be a long term answer at the position. Still, it seems unfair to go Jennings and Teague are ranked ahead of Calderon as a free agent (which takes age in to account), and Calderon is better than Knight (which doesn’t take age in to account), therefor Jennings and Teague are better than Knight. I mean, they are better, I just don’t like that proof.

        • Mar 29, 201312:54 pm
          by G

          Reply

          Factor in defense. Calderon is bad, Teague is good. If you look at the WAR numbers in the article, Teague’s is only 0.3 ahead of Calderon. They’re pretty close. I don’t think the age plays much of a factor, other than they’re projecting improvement for both Teague & Jennings over the next 3 years. Calderon’s numbers should be pretty similar to what he’s got right now.

          Would you agree with this – that in 3 years Calderon will still be a better PG than Knight, but Jennings & Teague will be better than Calderon?

      • Mar 29, 20131:27 pm
        by allweatherfanaddict

        Reply

        Teague is in his 3rd year right? The basics if what I was saying was give him another year, before you make a claim like that. It would be a big mistake to sign him if they did end up being similiar. That is a reasonable thing to ask. So, “”ridiculously horny”" was a bit extreme. I like that, but I’m not. My barometer is what is most recent. And I know the skills challenge isn’t the best barometer, But your response? C’mon, TP wins that like every year, and he is one of the best. You sound a little mad or something.

        • Mar 30, 20134:44 pm
          by G

          Reply

          The skills challenge is an obstacle course. It’s like judging the best soldiers by who makes it through the obstacle course with the best time instead of their performance in the field when people are shooting back. Use game situations to evaluate ability to play in a game, don’t use a glorified drill. I’m not mad, I’m incredulous that you even brought it up.

          Teague is in his 4th year, but only his 2nd year starting. His first year he only played 700 minutes & his second year he only played about 900 something. Even then, Teague averaged better than a 2 to 1 AST/TO ratio in his 2nd year despite only playing 13min a game. I expect Knight to improve SLIGHTLY on his turnovers, but not much.

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