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Al Horford, Hawks take out spiraling Pistons

Atlanta Hawks 114 Final

Recap | Box Score

103 Detroit Pistons
Jason Maxiell, PF 17 MIN | 3-7 FG | 1-2 FT | 6 REB | 0 AST | 1 STL | 0 BLK | 0 TO | 7 PTS | -6He’s been playing his worst ball of the season and a matchup with uber-athletic Josh Smith wasn’t going to remedy that. He didn’t do much when he was out there, and it’s become pretty obvious that once Andre Drummond returns in the next week or so, Maxiell’s days as the starter are probably limited.
Greg Monroe, C 31 MIN | 5-9 FG | 5-8 FT | 8 REB | 5 AST | 2 STL | 1 BLK | 2 TO | 15 PTS | -11Monroe bounced back nicely from a pair of rough games against the Pacers tonight. With Max’s play slipping and no other legitimate rebounder around, he’s been one of the guys who’s really been affected by Drummond’s absence. Monroe is a good rebounder, but right now, he’s the Pistons only rebounder.
Jose Calderon, PG 33 MIN | 3-11 FG | 0-0 FT | 5 REB | 9 AST | 0 STL | 0 BLK | 4 TO | 7 PTS | -10He’s in a bit of a shooting slump, but the nine assists are the most he’s had since before the debacle(s) against Indiana. His neck beard is looking as good as it has during his Pistons tenure, though, so there’s that?
Rodney Stuckey, PG 36 MIN | 10-17 FG | 2-2 FT | 5 REB | 2 AST | 1 STL | 0 BLK | 2 TO | 22 PTS | -18Stuckey’s struggled with his shot this season — and part of his success tonight was the fact that he took most of his shots at the rim — but from outside 10 feet, he’s shooting a putrid 36.5 percent. Then again, he’s only shooting 39 percent overall, so, yeah, yuck.
Kyle Singler, SG 29 MIN | 5-11 FG | 2-2 FT | 4 REB | 1 AST | 1 STL | 0 BLK | 2 TO | 13 PTS | -9Solid. There’s not a lot that Singler is going to do that really wows you outside of make his shots and do what he can on defense. Unfortunately, that defense against Kyle Korver slowly deteriorated as the game went on.
Jonas Jerebko, PF 24 MIN | 9-12 FG | 2-2 FT | 6 REB | 3 AST | 1 STL | 0 BLK | 1 TO | 21 PTS | +4Maybe Jerebko isn’t quite as bad as everyone thought. He’s done a lot of his recent damage with the game out of reach, but that’s how every game has been recently. Basically, his entire game is based around hustle and he was all over the place tonight; in a good way. He even topped it off with a slick behind the back pass to Slava Kravtsov for a dunk in the final minute.
Charlie Villanueva, PF 7 MIN | 1-4 FG | 0-0 FT | 2 REB | 0 AST | 0 STL | 0 BLK | 1 TO | 2 PTS | -9These “wait, Charlie V still plays for the Pistons?” games are becoming more and more frequent.
Khris Middleton, SF 23 MIN | 2-6 FG | 0-0 FT | 2 REB | 2 AST | 0 STL | 0 BLK | 2 TO | 4 PTS | +6He just, kinda, stands around when he’s on the court. He’s active on defense, but on offense he just looks around and either stands in the corners or at the top of the key. Looks like a rookie getting playtime for the first time in basically an entire year.
Viacheslav Kravtsov, C 17 MIN | 1-2 FG | 0-0 FT | 2 REB | 1 AST | 1 STL | 0 BLK | 1 TO | 2 PTS | 0I get that it’s nice to see guys on the bench thrive when given the chance. When Slava got his double-double against Indiana, it was cool to see him doing well, but there’s a reason he wasn’t playing before. Outside of that game, he’s averaging 4.5 points, 2.3 rebounds and 3.5 fouls in his last five games.
Kim English, SG 23 MIN | 2-5 FG | 6-6 FT | 1 REB | 2 AST | 1 STL | 0 BLK | 2 TO | 10 PTS | -2He was active, but again, his shot hasn’t been there yet this season. He is getting more comfortable, though, and once a young guy kind of gets his footing, you’d hope the jumper comes. Without that, he’s not doing much to help.
Lawrence FrankThings went to hell once he gave Monroe and Calderon a break early in the second quarter. Part of the problem was Brandon Knight and Will Bynum being out, but without Monroe or Calderon, the Pistons offense is non-existant. He is playing the kids, so that’s something, but the team’s also been victim to opposing scoring runs the size of tidal waves, part of the reason they’ve dropped five of seven by 10-plus points.

130 Comments

  • Feb 25, 201310:36 pm
    by menten

    Reply

    B- Calderon HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!
    we played defense like a piece of shit, are you kidding me!??

  • Feb 25, 201310:38 pm
    by menten

    Reply

    ^ “he” not we

    • Feb 26, 20136:03 am
      by ZekeKhaseli

      Reply

      Calderon is not the problem. Our bigs spearheaded by the “Grit, grim and physical toughness” of Jason Maxiell reflects the chink in our armor. We are poor defending the paint and rebounding the ball. Just like last year. Something that coach Frank should’ve prepared coming on the season. Its his fault

      • Feb 26, 20138:32 am
        by Derek

        Reply

        Bigs went from playing gritty physical defense to being uninspired and going through the motions.  They get beat off the dribble.  They turn their heads, lose sight of their man, and get beat with interior cuts/passes.  They are letting loose balls hit the floor instead of going after them.

        Ok, so I understand the trade deadline was in the minds of the guys.  I understand they were shocked Prince left the palace (got traded), but it is time to put the shock away and play for pride.  If not pride, then play for what’s left of your NBA career.

        This team needs an enema (1989 Jack Nicholson Joker voice)!

  • Feb 25, 201310:46 pm
    by ryan

    Reply

    Jose Calderon is starting to show his limitations pretty badly.

    • Feb 26, 20131:01 am
      by Jack Hodgins

      Reply

      Raptors fan here, Jose Calderon does a lot of good things like his sweet stroke from beyond the arc, his great playmaking skills and just his basketball IQ so why isnt he a top 20 PG? because his Man on Man D is turrible, that what we learnt when he played for us on offence he enchances your team immensely but his lack of D can kill you… anyway I still miss him 

      • Feb 26, 20135:35 am
        by Gareth Masters

        Reply

        Hopefully Drummond’s imminent return will mask some of that deficiency…

        • Feb 26, 20136:04 am
          by ZekeKhaseli

          Reply

          I’m not worried about Jose. Keep sounding the alarm, not all people gonna fall for it

  • Feb 25, 201310:50 pm
    by Mark

    Reply

    yeah, these guys need to be judged on more than their offense. Monroe’s man put up 20-20 on him. Calderons man put up 20-10 on him. They both got punked and deserve D+’s at best for tonights game.

    lol@ the Jose beard comment though.  

  • Feb 25, 201311:17 pm
    by Jay

    Reply

    Who knew how important B. Knight was important to this team’s success. We always gave him shit for stalling the team….but as these past games have shown, at least on the eye test, we are sooo much better with him playing. I can’t wait to get back drummond in the lineup. We would actually have a decent starting 5 with those two playing.  

    • Feb 26, 20134:45 am
      by T Casey

      Reply

      That’s how it’s been since we drafted Knight tbh. People quickly forget that insterting him into the starting lineup was what helped turn things around last year. Despite his erratic and often poor play this year in specific, he’s still one of the most important players on the team. That’s one reason fans like me think he can be a very good player yet.

      And, yeah, I think it’d be completely ridiculous for Drummond to not be starting by the end of the season asusming he comes back 100%. I’d love to see what we could do with him and Knight starting together. That’d be one high energy group.

      • Feb 26, 201312:55 pm
        by sebastian

        Reply

        T Casey, I had said all season long up until Dre Drummond’s injury that not only was Dre not playing significant minutes with Moose, he [Dre] was also not playing significant minutes with B. Knight.
        It is equally as important that B. Knight (who should be OUR starting PG) plays significant minutes with Dre as it is important that Moose and Dre play together.
        L. Frank has had so many missed opportunities as the Head Coach.
        Joe’s first move at the end of the season should be to fire L. Frank’s a$$!

  • Feb 25, 201311:32 pm
    by tim

    Reply

    existant?  Cmon now step your spelling game up.  JJ has gotten an unfair rap this season.  He clearly should be playing ahead of CV (and should’ve been all year).  Frank is terrible at managing rotations/playing time and has probably accounted for 5 losses with his terrible personnel decisions.  No way he should’ve rested monroe and jose at the same time.  Damn our defense is terrible.  

  • Feb 25, 201311:35 pm
    by Mark

    Reply

    Kratsov is a failure. We were better off trolling the D league for someone younger. This team is hard to watch.   Draft Burke. This team needs leadership badly. 

    • Feb 26, 201310:40 am
      by Scott Free

      Reply

      He’s only 25.

    • Feb 26, 201310:43 am
      by mike

      Reply

      why would u want to draft a pg that would be stupid we have knight and r likely to resign either jose or bynum (hopefully not both), when we need a sg or sf really bad. we need to draft otto portter or olidipo assuming we dont win the lottery. or another option is if zeller is still there pick him and trade monroe before next years trade deadline for a proven wing player if zeller proves to fit better with drummond.

  • Feb 25, 201311:43 pm
    by Jodi Jezz

    Reply

    Come on Dumars, please don’t bring Calderon back to Detroit!..Give Knight the green light and then lets put a talented SG and SF next him…I guarantee Knight’s game will begin to blossom if we did that…

    • Feb 26, 20136:54 am
      by Vince

      Reply

      I’m ready to bet you a grand that Knight will never live up to your – or I HATE FRANK’s – expectation of him. You talk about him like hes the next Chris Paul or Steve Nash. He’s not. Get it in your head. Just because his stats reflect those of a younger Billups doesn’t mean he’ll become Billups or a premier point guard, he could become the next Smush Parker.

      Knight isn’t a franchise cornerstone or player, at best he’ll be a serviceable sixth man or decent-ish starter. He is a crappy ball handler, he can’t pass and is a walking turnover; he can drive and shoot the 3, thats it, he is a dime a dozen guard, he is “Rodney  Stuckey 2.0: Now with more wasted hopes and better 3PTFG%”

      Knight isn’t that good. Get it into your head. 

      • Feb 26, 201310:37 am
        by I HATE FRANK

        Reply

        “”I’m ready to bet you a grand that Knight will never live up to your – or I HATE FRANK’s – expectation of him. You talk about him like hes the next Chris Paul or Steve Nash. He’s not. Get it in your head. Just because his stats reflect those of a younger Billups doesn’t mean
        he’ll become Billups or a premier point guard, he could become the next Smush Parker.”"

        1. How long did it take Billups to develop? and we rarely get to see knight as a scorer with the ball in his hands….he is either off the ball or has been playing as a pass first PG…He need the ball in his hands to create offense…

        Knight isn’t a franchise cornerstone or player, at best he’ll be a serviceable sixth man or decent-ish starter. He is a crappy ball handler, he can’t pass and is a walking turnover; he can drive and shoot the 3, thats it, he is a dime a dozen guard, he is “Rodney  Stuckey 2.0: Now with more wasted hopes and better 3PTFG%”

        2. LOL@ he can Drive and Shoot 3′s …Exactly…. People get on Knight for his turnovers…. but he is playing a style of play that doesnt fit his skill set… and Calderon Ast has taken a hit in this system.

        I dont think Knight is a cornerstone …But he can be a very productive player….just not in this system and I’ve been saying that for several months…Im all for trading him if we are going to keep Frank,, because Frank has no idea what to do with him…

        • Feb 26, 201311:12 am
          by tarsier

          Reply

          COME ON!!! Stop with the Billups comparisons already. I’m just gonna quote myself here since this needs to be reiterated as much as possible to everyone who says Knight has a bright future and uses Billups as evidence.

          “We all know players sometimes get suddenly better, it’s what we have MIP for, it just doesn’t happen very often. But if you want to say that is what might happen, why not just say Knight might suddenly get way better. You don’t need an example of another player who did. We already know there are a few among the myriads of disappointments.”

          If you want to say that Knight has a bright future, there is definitely a legitimate case you could make, but use Knight’s game to make your case, not Billups’!!

          Also, you have to stop complaining about Knight being “used as” a pass first PG. When he has the ball in his hands, it’s his choice whether to try to facilitate or score. He chooses to try to facilitate more often than you’d like. But you put it on Frank. That is like putting it on all of Josh Smith’s coaches that he chooses to shoot too many outside shots. You can blame the coach for many things (including a portion of this). But he should not be first in line for the blame for a player’s poor decision making.

          • Feb 26, 201312:02 pm
            by I HATE FRANK

            “”COME ON!!! Stop with the Billups comparisons already. I’m just gonna quote myself here since this needs to be reiterated as much as possible to everyone who says Knight has a bright future and uses Billups as evidence.”"
            1. Was Not My comparison…I was responding to a comment…My point is System means alot, some player shine in certain systems so do not. That All

            “”Also, you have to stop complaining about Knight being “used as” a pass first PG. When he has the ball in his hands, it’s his choice whether to try to facilitate or score. He chooses to try to facilitate more often than you’d like. But you put it on Frank. That is like putting it on all of Josh Smith’s coaches that he chooses to shoot too many outside shots. You can blame the coach for many things (including a portion of this). But he should not be first in line for the blame for a player’s poor decision making.”"

            2. If Knight does bust in this league, Ok… But you Kill me when you think coaching or the system does not determine a player choices on the court. If you Practice all week, to be a facilitator you’re going to be a facilitator. PERIOD, Its not like all of a sudden he can start jacking up shots, and go against what they’ve ran all week long.

            Knight is a 2nd year player, I know that we compare him to other 2nd year PG’s…. but he is not in a similar situation at all compared to those PG’s…. I’ve said it several time Knight just DOES NOT FIT (SURE IT HAS NUFFIN TO DO WITH COACH, same coach that has started Maxiell for 69 games, over more productive players, the same coach that has probably blown more double figure leads than any other coach in the league, the same coach who everyone questions his game and player management ). But I do believe he can become a very productive player in this league. Jeff Teague is in his 4th year, and now showing promise…. Sometimes its about patiences and the right system and oppurtunity… how you can argue against that is beyond me…

          • Feb 26, 201312:24 pm
            by tarsier

            And do you attend practice? Do you know what Knight practices? Do you know how much Knight vs. Frank vs. anyone else is dictating what he work on?

            Again, I refer to the Josh Smith example. I am confident that his coaches do not have him practicing shooting jumpers.

            As I said, I believe that some of the blame goes to Frank. I don’t know that I agree that Knight would be a particularly great score first PG. Or if that would be very beneficial to the team. But maybe he would and maybe it would. And Frank has not done much with him.

            But I have never seen a coach take so much flak for a player’s decisions. In spite of the fact that the rationale you give applies to every single player in the league who may make bad decisions.

  • Feb 25, 201311:44 pm
    by Mrshourite

    Reply

    Wow! Knew it was a matter of time before the Calderon bashing began. All this B.Knight fan boy worship is starting to get pretty old. I think the loss of Drummond has had far more of an adverse impact on our overall play than the absence of Knight these last few games. With that being said I do agree that we need our core roster healthy and available in order to be the slightest bit competitive on a game to game basis. We are getting throttled by playoff teams and lottery teams, our front line is really getting exposed. As of now Monroe is not a max player, but unfortunately he currently is holding down the spot as our best player. Hopefully Dre will take the necessary strides to overtake that role on our team within the next year or so. 

    • Feb 26, 20134:56 am
      by T Casey

      Reply

      We were competing fine without Drummond, for the most part. But since Knight’s been out, we’ve gotten killed in 3 straight games. I’m not saying he’s necessarily more important to our chances to win than Drummond. There are other factors to why we’ve been competitive without Drummond like the addition of Calderon, sure. But we haven’t been competitive at all since Knight went down. That’s got to say something. He makes a lot of mistakes, but he’s tough and pushes the tempo more than anyone which is a clear plus.

      • Feb 26, 201311:36 am
        by Clint in Flint

        Reply

        “We were competing fine without Drummond, for the most part”

        What team were you watching? 

      • Feb 26, 201312:37 pm
        by T Casey

        Reply

        The team that won 4 of 6 without him. You know, the team that didn’t get blownout in 3 straight games.

    • Feb 26, 201311:17 am
      by Huddy

      Reply

      Maybe our loses have less to do with BK7 and more to do with playing 2 of the top 4 teams in the conference.  “We were competing fine without Drummond”  against who?  We beat Charlotte, the wizards, the bucks, and the Spurs without Tim Duncan or Manu (granted they are still a good team without them).  If you look at our schedule from the season that is basically exactly as we have played all season, we beat some bad teams, have a couple of decent wins, and thats it.  I’m not a BK hater (I don’t have the confidence that many fans do in him) but It is a little out there for his fans to look at a couple games, one of which had the Pistons down 2 PGs not just BK, and act like hes the key to the team.  How much better he will get can be debated, but as of now (for the actual season) he isn’t improving our team with passing, isn’t scoring very efficiently or at a high level, and there is little evidence that (right now) he is anymore of a game changer for us than Drummond. 

      • Feb 26, 201312:51 pm
        by T Casey

        Reply

        That’s a good point. But I’d wager the Spurs are just as good as or better than either Indy or Atlanta even without Duncan and Ginobli at this point. What he does do well is push the tempo and stretch the defense when he’s shooting well which are both plusses we’re without atm.

        • Feb 26, 20131:08 pm
          by Huddy

          Reply

          Pacers are better than Spurs without Tim and Manu, but like i said that is still a good win for us.  But its almost more important to look at the sample size.  Not really enough games to show that anyone is the real reason why we lost.  I actually don’t think either BK or Drummond are truly make or breaking our ability to win as they are currently being used.  Drummond is great, but can only have so much of an impact coming off the bench so to say whether or not him being in the game means a win or a loss for us is tough.  BK is just beginning to work into the SG position and I just don’t think his production warrants any talks of why we should be beating the 2nd best team in the east.  At the end of the day our full roster being healthy isn’t enough to win and we have proved that all season.  We have gaps in wing scoring and defending, so really these guys being out is just a way for us to mix up the line up and let players like Slava and Middleton get some run. 

  • Feb 25, 201311:46 pm
    by Passion not energy

    Reply

    Shows you how much this team misses AD, Monroe looks so feeble with his defense or lack thereof and Calderon definetly needs a guy like Drummond to erase his lack or unwillingness to play defense.

    If I was Joe I wouldnt offer Calderon a contract, I’d sit on that pile of cash until real players are available.  

  • Feb 25, 201311:49 pm
    by Brandon Knight

    Reply

     
    Brandon Knight is our future point guard, whoever disagrees is an idiot. Sorry! He is a hardworking man. We all saw what happened to us when he was out. Calderon is garbage! Why do you think Toronto traded him? He is old and limited offensively. And garbage on defense. We should get rid of him and place knight back at the PG position. I don’t understand why everyone gave up on him this fast. He is full of potential. He was struggling lately because they moved him to the shooting guard position where he has no experience playing it. He was practicing and playing point guard position for 5 years; you can’t just move him like that and expect him to succeed. He is better at the PG position. If any is wondering why he is not putting up a lot of points, it’s because he doesn’t shoot a lot. He only attempts 12 shots a game. That ranks him 32 among guards. I think it’s because he is lost between passing and scoring. If he focuses more on being score-first point guard like D-Rose and Irving, he can be big in the NBA.
     

    • Feb 26, 201312:37 am
      by Brandon Knight

      Reply

       
      Just to prove my point take a look at Knight’s game log and look how many points he puts up when he attempts more than 14 shot a game.
       
      http://www.nba.com/playerfile/brandon_knight/game_by_game_stats.html
       

      • Feb 26, 201312:46 am
        by Brandon Knight

        Reply

        This is shocking guys, I just calculated how many points he averages when he shoots more than 14 shots a game.  and I got 21 points/game. This is what I am talking about. BK7. Now what?

        • Feb 26, 20137:01 am
          by Vince

          Reply

          Holy shit! What are the odds!? When you shoot more there is a chance you score more!

          Thank you Sherlock!

          • Feb 26, 201310:57 am
            by Brandon Knight

            Well he will never average 20 or more if he is going to shoot only 12 shots. What I am trying to say is that Knight should start shooting more. 

          • Feb 26, 201311:05 am
            by tarsier

            And what others are trying to say is that he should only shoot more if that makes the team score more. Do you have any sort of evidence that that might be happening?

          • Feb 26, 201312:34 pm
            by G

            So, you’re saying Brandon Knight is the PG of the future, but he should start shooting more and spend less time distributing. FYI – among PGs, Knight is tied with Chris Paul for FGA per game at 19th. Scoring-first PGs Russell Westbrook and Kyrie Irving average around 18 shots per game, but they also fill it up better.

            All shoot first PGs have to take it to the rack. If you can’t finish at the rim you should pass it to someone who can, or you aren’t really helping the offense. Well Knight shoots about 48% at the rim. That is not a good number. For example, Irving makes 54% at the rim, Rose hit 55% last year, Westbrook gets 53%, and Monta Ellis, a terrible chucker by the way, gets 56%. 

            If Knight was to become a shoot-first PG, he’d be passing up MUCH better options in Greg Monroe & Drummond. Calderon (who you blasted for some reason) is more of a mid-range jumper/3pt shooter, but he finishes at an extremely efficient 56%. Besides that, I want my PG to be able to run PnR without turning it over all the time. Calderon can, Knight can’t. It’s as simple as that.
              

      • Feb 26, 20139:56 am
        by tarsier

        Reply

        Here, make your life easier:

        http://bkref.com/tiny/Lin8C
         
        When Knight shoots over 14 shots a game, a totally arbitrary number, he shoots 41%. Just like when he doesn’t. How is this so exciting? 

        • Feb 26, 201311:27 am
          by Huddy

          Reply

          Also are we under the impression that BK starts averaging 20 pts a game we are solving PG needs?  How does BK just shooting more and getting 20 at an inefficient percentage make him a good PG?  Not being a passer makes everyone around him worse.  How productive is Andre Drummond going to be with a homeless man’s Russell Westbrook jacking more shots and not getting others involved.  If you think he has a high ceiling and will grow to be an efficient all around PG then thats fine, but why do we want a 40% shooter to just start shooting more and stop concentrating on evolving his passing game. 

        • Feb 26, 201312:28 pm
          by I HATE FRANK

          Reply

          Everytime I try to GET OUT! They Pull ME BACK IN!!!!

          STATS: When Knight shoots 16 or more shots

          He averages 22 PPG!!!! 47.6 FG!!!!

          the Pistons are 6-5

          In the 5 Losses = – 7.4
          In the 6 wins = + 10.5

          BTW: The Top 10 PG in Scoring Average 16.5 shoots per-game…And ONLY Jrue Holiday, Tony Parker and Kyrie Irving Shoots better than 45% ….Out of the 10!!!

          So when I say Knight Needs to shoot more, and the ball needs to be put in his hands as a scorer… Thats YOUR EVIDENCE!

          • Feb 26, 201312:38 pm
            by G

            How about this for an explanation – when Knight’s shot isn’t falling, he shoots less. 16 shots is a lot to take in one game (if you’re on the Pistons). It would follow that anyone shooting 16+ shots has a hot hand & they’re feeding it. 

            Knight doesn’t average 16.5 shots per game, he averages 11.8. If you want to cherry pick a small, skewed sample size out of Knight’s stat sheet, you have to do the same with the other guys. 

          • Feb 26, 20131:01 pm
            by tarsier

            Yes, you can cherry pick just the right number within any small sample to skew the results.

            Fact, you’re wrong anyway.

            When Knight takes 15 or more shots, he shoots 41.7%
            When Knight takes 16 or more shots, he shoots 42.4%
            When Knight takes 17 or more shots, he shoots 40.8% 

            So yeah, cherry picking the number 16 helps your cause because in the 9 games in which Knight has shot exactly 16 times, he’s hitting 45.8%. But do you think that is evidence that he should always shoot exactly 16 times?

            The fact of the matter is that his FG% trends down as he shoots more. His 4 career games in which he has shot 20 or more times, he has actually shot very well. But those still aren’t enough to buck the trend.

            Allow me to cherry pick the range of 12-19 FGAs:

            12 FGAs           44.0%
            13 FGAs           41.0%
            14 FGAs           42.9%
            15 FGAs           36.7%
            16 FGAs           45.8%
            17 FGAs           39.2%
            18 FGAs           38.9%
            19 FGAs           36.8%

            Now, based on that data, do you think he should shoot more?

          • Feb 26, 20131:16 pm
            by G

            Ok, doing your work for you…
            Knight had 11 games where he attempted at least 16 field goals. His FG% for those “hot hand” games was 46.6% (not 47.6% – I count 208 attempts and 97 made), and he averaged 1.245 points per attempt.

            I took a look at Irving’s “hot hand” numbers. To get a similar sample size I had to go with games where he attempted at least 22 shots (which Knight has yet to do, by the way).  I ended up with 13 games of 22 or more attempts compared to Knight’s 11 of 16 or more, so I think that’s close enough. In those “hot hand” games, Irving made 47.9% of his shots, averaging 1.3 points per attempt.

            Monta Ellis has the worst FG% of all PGs in the top 10 in scoring, but in his 9 games of 22+ FGA, he averages 46.8%. 

          • Feb 26, 20131:19 pm
            by tarsier

            I’m looking at career numbers, not this season numbers. The sample size is still small, but looking at just this season makes it much too small.

          • Feb 26, 20131:27 pm
            by tarsier

            I don’t even believe in “the hot hand” but G’s explanation still makes sense provided the player/coach/team believes in it.

            If a player is shooting really well, he’ll take more shots.  Even if on those more shots, he doesn’t keep shooting really well, he has the initial burst of good shooting to pull up his overall shooting for the night. So games in which a guy shoots a lot should be higher percentage games. The fact that they are not for Knight’s career (unless he is at exactly 16 FGA or 20+) is actually disappointing by that line of reasoning.

          • Feb 26, 20131:50 pm
            by G

            The “Knight Should Shoot More” argument assumes that he’s capable of handling a scoring load similar to that of Kyrie Irving or Tony Parker.

            Well, we can argue stats all we want, but that argument fails the eye test. First off, if Knight could handle that type of scoring load, he’d be doing it. This impression you guys (not you tarsier, the other guys) have that Knight is doing all sorts of passing that takes away from his effectiveness is simply not true. He’s near the bottom of the league in assist ratio (the % of that player’s possessions that end with an assist). Detroit shoots .444% as a team, so even if you account for the possibility that Knight set some guys up & they missed their shot, that still only counts for about 6.6 assist attempts per game and 11.8 FGA per game, meaning he’s looking for his own shot about twice as much as he’s looking to pass. Add turnovers to the assist attempts and it’s still 9.4 assist attempts per game (Monta Ellis’ number would be about 11.8, for comparison’s sake).

            And then just watch a game. Can he break down a defender like Irving, Ellis, or Parker can? No. Can he fill it up like Steph Curry, Calderon, Chris Paul, etc. can? No. Knight is in a no-man’s land of being a poor passer and a somewhat ineffective shooter. Not something you want in a PG. Since he’s a natural scorer, he needs to work on his shot and try to fit along side Calderon as a SG, and when he starts being a legit scoring option, then he can start taking 16+ shots a game. 

  • Feb 25, 201311:58 pm
    by piston moribund

    Reply

    Bullwinkle got worked tonight.  15 and 8 is a horrible stat line for someone who is considered the best on the team.  No defense on Al.  Bad rotation a couple of times.  Disappears for stretches and only shot the ball nine times.  Held the ball a couple of times from 15ft out and made a statue out of himself.  Everyone in the entire building knew he wasn’t going to shoot it. 
    Frank is a horrible coach. 

    • Feb 26, 201311:40 am
      by Clint in Flint

      Reply

      “Frank is a horrible coach.”

      Do I hear an AMEN? 

    • Feb 26, 201311:44 am
      by MIKEYDE248

      Reply

      Almost anyone would look bad if you look at the rest of the team around him.  You can’t defend 5 good players with 2 good defenders and 3 not so good to bad defenders.

    • Feb 26, 20131:00 pm
      by T Casey

      Reply

      That’s true, but Frank has looked bad on two straight teams. At some point, you have to take into consideration the common denominator between the two.

  • Feb 25, 201311:58 pm
    by Blocks By Dre

    Reply

    Wow, I was gonna cheer everyone up by saying that at least we might end up with a higher draft pick until I realized…man this team is depressing as hell! That and the draft is rigged so even if we take a huge nosedive and end up with the worst record, with Stern running the show I doubt we would end up with the #1 pick. Cheers to not watching any more games until Drummond returns guys! Oh and I think with our second round pick if he’s still available we should go after LeBrayn Nash. His name alone is great but looking at his game he’s not that bad and might be better than Middleton is anyways

    • Feb 26, 201310:04 am
      by tarsier

      Reply

      A) The lottery is not fixed. If you are stupid enough to believe it is, do you also believe the moon landing was faked? And that shaving makes your hair grow back thicker?

      B) There’s no way Detroit ends up with a worse record than Charlotte or Orlando. Everyone else is still in play.

      C) It’s not all about who wins the lottery. Having a worse record still means getting a better pick, even assuming none of your combinations get drawn.

    • Feb 26, 201312:52 pm
      by Crispus

      Reply

      I literally thought you made that guy up. I pictured a weird light brown LeBron with wide-set eyes and long lank hair.

    • Feb 26, 20133:17 pm
      by G

      Reply

      Setting aside all the other crazy stuff in that comment, LeBryan Nash? What about him do you like, the poor FG%, the poor 3PT%, or the poor assist/turnover ratio? What makes you think he’ll enter the draft anyway? He’s a sophomore, why not wait a year or 2 when he’s got a chance at being a first round pick? Why not Adreian Payne or Ray McCallum instead?

      FYI – LeBryan Nash’s strength is supposedly defense, yet here go ESP’s list of his weaknesses:

      Maturity issues
      Poor body language
      Doesn’t always defend

       Perfect fit…

  • Feb 26, 201312:07 am
    by dvs33

    Reply

    i think stuckey needs a bit of love tonight. he battled and shot at a good rate. not too many long jumpers which is good. the game as a whole was horrible to watch. jj was fun at the end though

  • Feb 26, 20132:48 am
    by MrHappyMushroom

    Reply

    I didn’t see the game, but why would Stuckey and JJ (combined 19-29 and 43 points) get essentially the same grade as Calderon (3-11 and 7 points)?

  • Feb 26, 20135:52 am
    by duke

    Reply

    Where are our two Will Bynum haters because some how this loss is his fault. Please take that as a joke, as any loss is a team loss. I have never said this before but perhaps a coaching change is needed, or some new vision. Did we get any rebounds last nigt?

  • Feb 26, 20138:08 am
    by Jopps

    Reply

    The comments on articles on this sight has become toxic. I’m sick of reading through piles of garbage only to find one or two good and reasonable comments at best. I can’t even laugh off comments anymore, it’s too sad. This is not some 2K game we are talking about. Trades left or right, firing coaches here and there. Depressing.

    I just hope everyone on this team will prove all of you wrong, to be honest. It would be a lot of fun.

    Go Pistons!           

    • Feb 26, 201310:14 am
      by tarsier

      Reply

      Every Pistons fan hopes so. But most of us are more realistic and would rather advocate for changes that are more likely to help than for sitting passively by and wishing that a not particularly great bunch suddenly becomes amazing.

    • Feb 26, 201310:35 am
      by Scott Free

      Reply

      I’m with you Jopps.  I’d have a hard time distinguishing these comments from a fantasy league, if not for the constant mention of Jason Maxiel.  Heck, even the writing staff is getting a little punchy.

      It feels like there’s a lot of basketball fans in Detroit, but not many Pistons fans.  I don’t think anyone expects us to be the crazed homers that follow the Lions season after awful season.  But why follow a team if all you can think about is who you can trade them for?  

      Thats why I’ve all but migrated to MLive.  More often than not, they understand the subtle difference between being critical and being negative.  Plus, no ginned up conversations about racial politics from basketball announcers. 

      • Feb 26, 201311:04 am
        by tarsier

        Reply

        Because we are Pistons fans, not Knight fans or Maxiell fans or Jerebko fans or whatever else. So we want what is best for the Pistons. And some of us believe that is trading certain players. Most of us believe that is moving on past Frank and/or Dumars.

        It all comes down to priorities. Some fans really value continuity. I value success much, much more highly than continuity. 

        • Feb 26, 201311:18 am
          by Scott Free

          Reply

          An organization is just a name without people.  Otherwise you’re just cheering for the name on the front of the jersey.  Why care about the Pistons if the personel is interchangeable with any other team?

          Out of curiosity, have you watched a Memphis game since Tay was traded? 

          • Feb 26, 201312:17 pm
            by tarsier

            And a person is just a name without a body. But are you going to complain if Monroe develops a body like Orlando Dwight Howard?

            Face it, fans cheer for names. Don’t believe me? I bet very few Pistons fans liked Sheed before he came to Detroit. But we loved him there. I was not a Drummond fan when he was at UConn. Now I am.

            If it’s about the individual players to you and not the team, then how do you determine who you like? Is it every former and current Piston? Is it based on how long they were in Detroit? Or what percentage of their career? Or just current Pistons? In which case, you’d hate to see a trade, but as soon as it is over, you’re just as happy because your allegiances have shifted?

            Explain to me how your fandom works if you are not rooting for the success of the team. Are you really just rooting for continuity and hoping that success will come along?

          • Feb 26, 201312:34 pm
            by Scott Free

            I think you’re splitting hairs to suggest rooting for an organization and rooting for the players on said organization are different goals.  

            That said, theres no mathematical formula.  Its usually the degree to which a player has been with the Pistons, how well they fit the organization’s halmarks (workmanlike attitudes, physical defense, ect.), how their conduct has been while they were with the organization, and their importance on a given squad.  

            And no, on the alliance shifting thing — thats what I was getting at when I asked how many games you’ve seen Tay play since leaving the Pistons.  It was the right decision to move him, but he was moved to a better fit for him as well.  I didnt like the circumstances that saw Rip leave the Pistons, but whenever he’s not injured I try and catch Chicago games.  I still like seeing Chauncey (and if he can break into the rotation) Grant Hill on the Clippers.  

          • Feb 26, 20131:07 pm
            by tarsier

            So do you watch every former Piston? Daye on the Grizz, Afflalo on the Magic, Johnson on the Raps, Gordon on the Cats, I’m pretty sure Wilkens is playing somewhere and maybe Wilcox too.

            Most of the players people are talking about trading have contributed about as much to the organization as those guys.

          • Feb 26, 20131:32 pm
            by Scott Free

            “Most of the players people are talking about trading have contributed about as much to the organization as those guys”  Thats pretty bold thing to say right after they moved Tayshaun.  (now who’s forgetting players as soon as they leave this squad?)

            Forgive the nuance, but you’re mistaken if you think my argument is that Pistons fans can’t look for trades.  I’d be pretty happy if they could get some return on Stuckey, myself.  But Pistons fans are trade obsessed and not particularly loyal to any one player or lineup.  Maybe its because the current crop fails to register with local fans — but I know Tigers fans, or Wings fans, or Lions fans would see this through with a fraction of the whining and complaining that we basketball fans lodge at our squad.  

          • Feb 26, 20132:04 pm
            by tarsier

            Note my use of the word “most” and not “all”. Prince was one guy.

            Pistons fans become loyal to a lineup or player once it does something. Why should we be loyal to this bunch that is not very good?

            I would rather keep Monroe and Drummond than flip them for something equivalent (unless the fit was improved). The same for Jerebko, Bynum, Stuckey, and Knight. Because I like them. But if I have any reason to believe they could be flipped for someone better or someone just as good who would fit better, I do want to trade them.

            So it seems to me that this is just a matter of how much continuity you are willing to sacrifice for how much success or vice versa. 

        • Feb 26, 201312:21 pm
          by Scott Free

          Reply

          woof, you make Jim Rome look urbane.

          • Feb 26, 201312:44 pm
            by Patrick Hayes

            Just taking your advice to be less wordy.

          • Feb 26, 201312:52 pm
            by Scott Free

            Touché  (or in your case, douché)…  with that one gesture you can summarize 90% of your posts here!  Good on ya.  

        • Feb 26, 20131:53 pm
          by G

          Reply

          That never gets old

  • Feb 26, 20139:09 am
    by hirobeats

    Reply

    Yo, I couldn’t agree with Jopps more. I used to swear by this site, read it everyday. But these poisonous comments have really soured my opinion of this site. Now look, of course, I personally am a fan of Brandon Knight, most of you already know that he is my favorite player. And if it’s true that the Pistons are giving up on him already, that would be unfortunate. I mean, given the fact that he is following a similar (albeit better) career path than a young Billups, what proof do we have to justify that he ISNT going to be as good as Chauncey? Isn’t it AT LEAST POSSIBLE the that the pistons being so bad for so long has made us impatient, and less tolerant of the fact that he will need more time to develop into a plus player? But that’s me personally. My gripe is with the negativity that surrounds this team and the comments on this site. Sure its more irritating when most of the negativity is direct towards who I personally consider to be my favorite player, nevertheless, this is really the only community that us die hard pistons fans have to come together and enjoy talking basketball. In short, ya’ll boys are makin’ tough for some of us. (yes, im black) 

    • Feb 26, 201310:12 am
      by tarsier

      Reply

      People have got to stop comparing to Billups. Based on your logic, the Pistons should snap up every struggling young PG they can find because he is on a similar career path to Billups. Once in a very rare while, they’ll put it all together and become good, like Billups. But most of them won’t.

      I certainly would not advocate getting rid of Knight for nothing. But if decent value can be had for him, why not go for it. There is the chance that he suddenly blossoms and Detroit misses out. But if you’re smart, you play the odds, not your hopes and dreams.

    • Feb 26, 201310:28 am
      by tarsier

      Reply

      We all know players sometimes get suddenly better, it’s what we have MIP for, it just doesn’t happen very often. But if you want to say that is what might happen, why not just say Knight might suddenly get way better. You don’t need an example of another player who did. We already know there are a few among the myriads of disappointments.

      But, if you insist on comparing to Billups, at least be accurate. In Billups’ “bad years”, his first four seasons, he was better in almost every (not rebounding) advanced metric than Knight. His common stats didn’t look quite as good because we didn’t have as many minutes handed to him on a silver platter regardless of performance.

      • Feb 26, 201310:34 am
        by hirobeats

        Reply

        I never said that I’m comparing him to Chauncey, I’m addressing the fact that so many people have. That’s neither here nor there, I can’t help but notice that you didn’t touch on my point about us being bad leading to us being impatient with his development, can you really tell me that that doesn’t have ANYTHING to do with it?

        • Feb 26, 201310:58 am
          by tarsier

          Reply

          Do you really think that we are more impatient with his development than we were with Darko’s?

          If anything has made us unfairly impatient, it’s how quickly so many very good PGs have been developing lately. But I’m still not really buying that.

          I think we are just impatient because we realize that most of the time, if a player doesn’t get develop early, he doesn’t suddenly pick it up later on.

          • Feb 26, 201311:15 am
            by hirobeats

            When we had Darko we were the best team in the NBA, you are proving my point with that statement. He hasn’t given us ANY indication that he isn’t going to be AT LEAST average. Now, to be fair he hasn’t given us any indication that we would be significantly above average either. I didnt wanna go there because I hate this player comparision bullshit, but I have to call you on your statement about if players don’t develop early then they don’t at all. That’s absolutely not true, sure most super stars develop early, but no one is claiming BK to ever be a superstar. Since we are so driven by advance stats (which is unequivocally a gift and curse) take a look at Jrue Holiday, through his first 2 season, he was practically a mirror image of BK7. Look what happened after he figured out how to play ball in the Big leagues. and knight is far more physically gifted to boot. But, whatev. we can go back and forth with this all day, im not going to change your mind, and you wont change mine. I like the young man’s game, and I prefer to root for him. And I’ll respect your right to not. 

          • Feb 26, 201311:56 am
            by tarsier

            How was I proving your point? You were saying that we are less patient because the Pistons are bad. I am saying we were just as impatient with Darko when the Pistons were good. So being bad is clearly not the reasons.

            As for players who don’t develop early not developing at all, I’m not saying there aren’t counter examples. I’m saying it is definitely the case for the vast majority of players. So giving an example of someone who did otherwise proves nothing. Heck, I’ve never said there isn’t a chance Knight will get good. I’m saying the odds are against it. However, unless you can get a decent return for him, you might as well wait him out at least through his rookie contract to see if he can pull it all together.

            Also, Jrue is not a great example for your point anyway. He had been playing well for the past couple seasons but clearly had his upside blocked by playing alongside a point forward. Once Iggy was traded, everyone expected Jrue to suddenly put up better numbers. I will concede that his numbers improved a bit more than expected.

            So if you’re going to try to make that comparison, who is holding back Knight? Once upon a time, you could have said Stuckey. But this season, there was plenty of time with Stuckey coming off the bench before Calderon was brought in. And Knight still struggled because, at least so far, he’s just not as good as most of the players he gets matched up with.

          • Feb 26, 201311:58 am
            by tarsier

            Also, why would you think that I’m not rooting for Knight. I would love for him to prove me wrong. But you know: hope for the best, expect the most likely.

        • Feb 26, 201311:00 am
          by tarsier

          Reply

          And I certainly can’t speak for all fans, but I honestly believe I’d be more impatient with him if the Pistons were good. Because then I would want to flip him while he still had a little value for a guy who can contribute now.

          Since the Pistons are bad, I really don’t care if he develops slowly, as long as there is a light at the end of the tunnel. If I had good reason to believe that he would become at least an average starting PG, I would be much more patient. 

  • Feb 26, 20139:38 am
    by Brendon

    Reply

    After Drummond comes back who backs him up Slava or Max?

  • Feb 26, 20139:46 am
    by Scott Free

    Reply

    Somewhere an injured Brandon Knight receives a B- for cooking an apple turnover.

  • Feb 26, 201311:07 am
    by Brandon Knight

    Reply

    I hate Calderon. You can’t just pass the ball and not score. Calderon is dead on offense. Big example is the Celtics. Rondo doesn’t score he just passes the ball. Look they are much better without him. We need Knight back as our PG. He is better on the offense: he can drive, he can shoot, he is quick and he is athletic. 

    • Feb 26, 201311:38 am
      by Huddy

      Reply

      Yes damn all those unimportant assists.  What has Rondo ever accomplished anyway?  What a perfect example of why not to have a pass first PG on your team.  I’m looking for a Brandon Jennings type player right?  Real inefficient scoring not getting other players involved, but hey maybe we get to see a 50 pt game one day…sick.

    • Feb 26, 201312:07 pm
      by tarsier

      Reply

      As Pistons, Knight uses up 4 more possessions per game than Calderon by attempting to score or turning it over. And he scores 0.7 more points per game.

      So let’s just ignore all the assists right now and imagine that they are worthless. Would you really rather spend four more possessions per game to get 0.7 points? That “addition” has an offensive rating of 19. In a league where an average offensive rating is just over 100. And the standard deviation is probably about 5.

      Is 13.6 ppg vs 12.9 ppg really the difference between a good scorer and a bad one?

      • Feb 26, 201312:19 pm
        by Huddy

        Reply

        Totally agree and really what great point guard can’t pass the ball also.  Players like D Rose, CP3, Nash  these guys aren’t just scoring they can pass.  Rondo’s team has always asked less of him in scoring.  When they won the championship he had Pierce Ray Allen and KG on the team, scoring wasn’t a priority he made all of them better because thats what a PG does.  Obviously all of these guys are established great players and BK is young, but I would hope our goal for him isn’t just jacking up as many shots as it takes to average 20 a night.  SG’s and SF’s can get away with being high volume scorers and nothing else on a team that has the other pieces that it needs, a PG can not.

        • Feb 26, 20131:43 pm
          by Brandon Knight

          Reply

          Then can you explain to me why the Celtics are playing better without him??????

          • Feb 26, 20132:12 pm
            by G

            Their bench was playing like crap before Rondo went down and now they’ve kicked it up a notch (Jeff Green especially), the team plays better under adversity, they made a sweet trade for Jordan Crawford… there could be a million reasons, most of which are more plausible than Rondo being a detriment to the C’s.

          • Feb 26, 20132:33 pm
            by tarsier

            This is actually a big topic. It is surprising enough that people tried to get to the bottom of it:

            http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/8951206/ewing-theory-revisited 

          • Feb 26, 20133:27 pm
            by G

            Ewing theory already doesn’t apply to Rondo because the C’s won a championship with him starting at PG. Plus, this season is a bit of an aberration, since Rondo’s been injured before & this is the first time the team has looked better in his absence.

          • Feb 26, 20133:42 pm
            by Huddy

            exactly why did the Celtics win a championship with him if he isn’t good?  Why are the Knicks playing worse with Amare back when he is actually producing well off the bench?  not all answers are simple.  I would argue that a NBA championship win is more telling of how a team plays with someone than a month stretch of games.  Other PGs score more than Rondo but that makes him bad?  Other elite PGs HAVE to do more because they don’t have the same assets that Rondo has, in addition to this simply having good players isn’t the only reason he looks good, if that was the case Chalmers would be an assist master.  Who is supposed to do the passing on the theoretical team you are making here Brandon?  What good team in the NBA doesn’t have a passer on the team?  Even Westbrook averages 8 assists a game.  Read what G posted above about his shooting. 
             

          • Feb 26, 20133:56 pm
            by G

            Thanks, homes. Plus, read the “correlation does not imply causation” link I posted, it’s a classic mistake people make. Basically means that comparing 2 related things doesn’t always prove that one caused the other to happen. 

          • Feb 26, 20133:58 pm
            by tarsier

            Actually read the article. The point isn’t the Ewing theory. The point is that it has a perfectly good explanation in it for why the Celtics have been better since Rondo went down.

            Garnett’s quote:
            “Rondo does so many different great things for this team,” said Garnett. “You can kind of get lackadaisical. It’s very similar to when you have someone cooking for you, and you’re expecting that every day. But as soon as you start to feed yourself, all of a sudden you start making these gourmet dishes. You start having more people to the house. And you never know you really possessed that. It’s kind of like that.”

          • Feb 26, 20134:08 pm
            by G

            That’s pretty interesting. Again, it sounds WAY more plausible than, say, the Celtics are just better when Rondo doesn’t play.

  • Feb 26, 201311:10 am
    by George

    Reply

    The fact that this team is flailing because our 19 yr old rookie is out is scary.  JoeD did an awful job building this “borderline” playoff team.  Don’t mention Knight being out too because as half he postures here already know, he is Stuckey 2.0, but is a worse defender.

    • Feb 26, 201312:09 pm
      by tarsier

      Reply

      How is this a “borderline playoff team”? Or a “‘borderline’ playoff team”? The Pistons are a run of the mill bad team.

      • Feb 26, 20133:56 pm
        by George

        Reply

        JoeD said we should be a playoff team heading into the season.  Gores said expected playoffs entering the season too.  Where the hell do you get your info?

        • Feb 26, 20134:00 pm
          by tarsier

          Reply

          Anyone can say whatever they want. I can say the Pistons are going to win the draft lottery AND the NBA championship. Bit it would be bullshit.

          So are those words from Dumars and Gores. Look at the actual team. Their record is my info. This is not a borderline playoff team. This is a 10-12 seed team. 

  • Feb 26, 201312:42 pm
    by I HATE FRANK

    Reply

    @Tarsier,

    Your John Smith example is horrible…

    Josh Smith is an example of a player plays outside himself….who wants to be something he is not….

    Knight is being asked to be something he is not, even as a spot up SG…he is being asked to be something he is not….

    Im okay with calling a spade a spade and say Knight has not been what i expected, but neither has this system

    • Feb 26, 20131:03 pm
      by tarsier

      Reply

      How do you know that Knight is being asked to be something he is not and Smith is trying to be something he is not?

      You know that both play in a way they are not best suited for. But to know why exactly they do so would require insider information that I am doubting you are privy to. 

    • Feb 26, 20131:29 pm
      by tarsier

      Reply

      Wow, you just got tag teamed on your little 16+ FGA comment. Totally shot down. I almost feel bad.

      • Feb 26, 20135:50 pm
        by I HATE FRANK

        Reply

        not really you both feed off each other, and didn’t disprove anything I said….
        all you said was 16 shot is too small of a sample to use, I only used 16 shot attempts because its the average for the top 10 scoring PG’s…

        I said to you earlier in the year 16 shot attempts was the average…and that i’d like to see him get his shot attempts up….

        But Oh well…. Trade him! …i have no emotional attachment, I just dislike our players being misused by an terrible coach…

         

        • Feb 26, 201310:05 pm
          by tarsier

          Reply

          No, your problem isn’t just that 11 games is too small a sample size (although that is a problem). It’s that you had one cherry picked stat (which wasn’t even accurate) and I gave you about a dozen cherry picked stats that showed the opposite.

          It’s also that your logic depends upon correlation implying causation. In spite of the fact that other perfectly good explanations can be found.

          And yes, we built off each other, because there were so many holes in your argument to be pointed out, it would have been hard for one of us to get all of them. 

          • Feb 27, 201311:49 am
            by I HATE FRANK

            I dont want to insult you, because you are too intelligent, and I really enjoy our back and forth..

            So are you really being Slow Intentinally or Just being STUBBORN?  THE ONLY REASON I PICKED 16 SHOTS…. IS BECAUSE THAT THE AVERAGE SHOT ATTEMPTS FOR THE LEAGUES TOP 10 SCORING PG’S!!!!!!

            If i wanted to cherry pick … with NO FOUNDATION or reasonable basis….

            Id say in the games where Knight has took 20 or more shot attempts… he averages 27ppg shooting 50% 4ast 6rebs and 1to….

            That would be cherry picking…

            To use “Cherry picking” as arguement against me, when I gave you an outline, resonable basis, and easy to comprehend…. is weak on your behalf…

            I work with people in epidemiology every day, you can manipulate stats to make Lebron look average…but what would be the basis of that arguement?

    • Feb 26, 20133:50 pm
      by G

      Reply

      Knight was in a bit of a shooting slump, perhaps related to his confusion on what his role is, perhaps not. However, since he’s been asked to do less ball handling, his turnovers have dropped dramatically while his assists have stayed basically the same. I think Knight was probably being asked to do “be something he is not” when they asked him to be a PG.

      And for everyone who uses the Billups comparison for Knight, saying “Billups took a long time to develop as a PG too”… it’s a stupid comparison. Billups was traded twice before his 2nd year in the league and had 4 different coaches in his first 3 years in the league. In every case Billups was asked to conform his game to what the coach wanted him to do, not the other way around. By contrast, Knight was given the keys to the offense basically right off the bat. It’s not the same situation, and it’s not an apt comparison.

       

  • Feb 26, 20131:00 pm
    by Pratik

    Reply

    This debate/argument should not be about any particular player, it should be about the team. This team is awful and it’s even harder to watch without Brandon Knight, Andre Drummond, and Will Bynum, who I believe are part of the future of this franchise, at least on the current roster. Joe Dumars and the management know we are bad, Tom Gores is aware that no one comes to the Palace and watches games, that is why Joe D and the management put us in a situation to have financial flexibility. Now we have to wait and watch what there going to do with this, and it might not be much. But at the least he can get rid of players who are hurting this franchise, such as Charlie V, Rodney Stuckey, and I would even put coach Frank in this list of people. Pistons should not be serious about resigning Jose Calderon, unless he agrees to come off the bench and Will Bynum signs with someone else this offseason. We can not keep telling our players they are going to lead this team as the starting PG and then suddenly convert them into a shooting guard or bring them off the bench. The way the Pistons organization has handled Rodney Stuckey is truly SAD, and not fair to Stuckey. He’s not a bad player, but the guy went from being the replacement to Chauncey Billups, to a franchise player, to the sixth man, and now he’s just whatever, a guy coming off the bench. Stuckey himself could not handle all of this change, number of coaches and systems: Flip Saunders, Michael Curry, Kuester, and now Frank, he has to see a therapist and stay SANE. Instead of getting rid of coaches, players, and bringing in new guys from the lottery, the management needs to focus on making Detroit a desirable place for basketball as it once was. That includes focusing all of their attention on player development, having CLEAR ROLES for each and every player that they understand (WHICH IS ON THE COACH, but if the coach isn’t doing his job, the management needs to direct him towards that), being involved in the community, helping reshape the future of Detroit, and playing with pride each and everyday. If a coach can’t get his players to play with pride and respect the game of basketball, the fans who come spend all of their money and time to see the team perform well, then he isn’t a coach. Great coaches make the most of their roster as Rick Carlise and Larry Brown and even Flip Saunders did. Not taking anything away from the players, but we need leadership on this team, and we have the right players to do that like Brandon Knight, Andre Drummond, Greg Monroe, Will Bynum (who I feel should start rather then Calderon, or Stuckey on this current roster because he plays with a lot of heart, and makes his teammates better). Everyone else on this roster including guys like Jonas Jerebko, Kyle Singler, Kim English, and Khris Middleton are players who have shown potential but need to be developed before they are given bigger roles. Kyle Singler is the starting SF on this team, what will happen to him when we sign someone who is better for that position and he goes back to the bench. He will probably handle it much better then Stuckey or Jason Maxiell (when Dre comes back, his ass better be benched). I’m sad that Joe Dumars continues to hire SOFT COACHES, who maybe intelligent and hard working, but if the players do not look up to their coach, or the coach has never played basketball before or has success as a coach, then idk man…I’m really sad that we didn’t hire Mike Woodson when we had the opportunity to. You can make the argument that Mike had great players in Atlanta and now in New York, but look at the way he handles such players. His team looks up to him and respects him. We haven’t had a coach that demands that respect from his players since Larry Brown. Flip Saunders was a great season coach, but that team had the attitude that they didn’t need a coach, or at least that’s what they portrayed. Again I don’t think that Frank is a bad coach, but he will never be a coach that the players can respect and look up to, and it’s not his fault, we just have a different culture in DETROIT which doesn’t fit with him. 

  • Feb 26, 20131:22 pm
    by Pratik

    Reply

    Detroit is a city that is passionate about all of it’s sports teams and enjoys watching football, baseball, hockey, and basketball. Because of our passion for our teams, we are impatient whether the team is a rebuilding squad and is below .500 each year, a championship contender, or a consistent playoff team. We want to see the Detroit Pistons do well and sometimes that leads to an enormous amount of impatience. But that culture doesn’t just exist amongst the fans but also the management and the players, because they are human and they listen to critics, and can sense the impatience of this state as a whole. They are also egotistic and selfish at times, and make decisions that don’t ever fit with the core philosophy of the organization. That leads to bad decisions such as signing Ben Gordon and Charlie V, who were both considered as great offensive weapons around the entire league at the time. But they never fit with the organizations historical roots, or if the organization was trying to change the fact that defense doesn’t come first into a fast pace western conference style offensive team, then it should have quit preaching it’s players about defense, because they simply acquired players who were bad defenders. This all goes back to the management and today’s failure is also on them because there the ones who make the decisions and create the team missions/philosophies. When Joe Dumars makes statements during the draft about Andre Drummond and Brandon Knight and says “he is a detroit piston, because this is what we stand for…etc etc., then we must trust him to acquire such players. But if he signs players who go against what he did earlier, then were giving him too much power and Tom Gores has to make a decision to just LET HIM GO, and bring in a fresh and new GM, who has a different system to implement. If were going to commit to rebuilding and starting fresh, which we have now done by trading Tayshaun Prince, and probably will do by using the amnesty clause on Charlie V, not extending Stuckey, letting Maxiell go, and not signing Calderon, then getting rid of Joe D is probably a good idea, because he belongs in that era, he is part of the past, everything he does will remind him of how good Detroit was, when a). he was a player and b). when he built a team that won a championship and should have repeated, and went to the eastern conference finals every year after that. Joe Dumars has to go, Coach Frank has to go, Rodney Stuckey, Charlie V, Jason Maxiell, all have to GO!!!

    • Feb 26, 20132:18 pm
      by G

      Reply

      If you want anyone to read that, please put spaces between your paragraphs. 

      • Feb 27, 20135:03 am
        by Tom Y.

        Reply

        heh, I just scrolled right past that.

  • Feb 26, 20135:07 pm
    by I HATE FRANK

    Reply

    Oh 46.6 perfect with 16 or more shots….and didn’t cherry pick anything clearly the comparison that I used was that the Top 10 PG’s averged 16.5 FG attempts…

    And there a difference coming into a game know you will get 16-18 shots, verse 11 or 12 attempts…

    And I’m not saying Knight is going to be great, and I don’t blame coaching when he misses shots…but if any player isn’t being used correctly that’s a problem…

    • Feb 26, 20135:23 pm
      by G

      Reply

      You cherry picked a pretty small sample size against a much larger one. Knight’s 16+ FG attempts has happened only 12 times. His overall FG% is a better indicator than his FG% when he shoots 16 or more times. What you’re doing is basically the same as saying “Miguel Cabrera has a much lower batting average in games with at least 6 plate appearances, so we should pinch hit for him late in games”. Saying more shots for Knight = better FG% is a dumb conclusion.

      • Feb 26, 20135:44 pm
        by I HATE FRANK

        Reply

        NO!

        Because my point was when he shoots the average attempts of the League Top Scorers at PG… he plays just as well at hey do…as a scorer

        The average attempts is 16!!!!!!

        So I used 16!!!!! 

        Its funny that my good ole friend Tar… talked about his 17,18,19 FG attempt percent…and his body of  work for those attempts are even smaller…

        So neither of you proved anything other than you dont like Knight as a PG….or u dont think he has a high ceiling

        Which is cool, im not trying to change either of your minds…I said he is a scoring PG and needs to put in that position or he needs to be traded.

         he needs the ball in his hand as a scorer to be effective….

         

        • Feb 26, 201310:21 pm
          by tarsier

          Reply

          I thought you said the average was 16.5

          Then clearly the number to select would be 17 or more vs 16 or less.

          Regardless, whether intentional or not, it was a single, meaningless split. Because, as can be seen by the whole range of stats I provided, his efficiency goes down with number of shots.

          And yes, the sample size for any given number of shots is very small. So any one of the data points I gave would individually be pretty meaningless. That’s why I didn’t choose a simple above x/below x split. Because the point was the trend  as the number of FGAs changed. That allows one to use the still not terribly large sample size of all of Knight’s games in which he shot 12-19 times.

        • Feb 27, 20138:44 am
          by G

          Reply

          Look man, it’s not like the Pistons are supplied with an abundance of scorers that are taking the ball out of Knight’s hands. If he had the ability, we would have seen it. I’m not saying he can’t improve, but there’s no conspiracy to keep his FG attempts down. He’s just not a good enough option to jack up 16+ shots every night.

          Here are a couple facts to consider –
          a) Knight’s handle isn’t that good. It’s okay, but he’s not Kyrie Irving. Knight has shown that if the defense keys off him, turnover city.
          b) Knight finishes about 47% at the rim. That is NOT a good number. The Pistons have several MUCH better options. In fact, Knight might be worst on the team finishing at the rim.
          c) You’re comparing a small sample of games Knight played where he decided to carry the scoring load against a MUCH larger sample of games where other players HAVE to carry the scoring load.
          d) You’re also assuming that Knight scored more efficiently because he took more shots instead of assuming Knight took more shots because he was scoring more efficiently. One of these makes sense, and let me help you out – it’s not the first one.

          • Feb 27, 201312:51 pm
            by I HATE FRANK

            http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/plus/shooting.cgi?player_id=knighbr03&year_id=2013&shot_distance=0-3

            52% at the rim….

            Also EVERYONE KNOWS at the rim is a misleading Stat… Its more about a teams style of play…. Lebrom is a super gifted to start with, then when you consider how many fast break uncontested dunk he gets every night….

            Or even someone average like Will Bynum, he lives off the pick and roll…and push the tempo in the open floor with spacing all over the floor….

            http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bynumwi01/shooting/2013/ Kyrie Irving is 58%…so is will Bynum just as good as Kyrie Irving is around the Rim?

            SMH….

            My original, original,original point is … knight needs more shot attempts…he is NO a tradional PG…and should have never been draft if thats what we wanted out of him…he has always been a scoring PG that willing to pass… Especially as the defense has to adjust to him….

            Dumars made the mistake at thinking it would be a natural transition for Knight because hge got better at playing the PG position at Kentucy, HOWEVER, Knight has and always will be a scoring first PG …. so IF he is gonna be on this roster let him play his game

            NO SCORER GOES INTO A GAME LIKE ”All I need is 12 shot attempts” No!!! thats how jason Kidd and Rondo go into a game…

            use him correctly or trade him

    • Feb 26, 201310:24 pm
      by tarsier

      Reply

      Are you really claiming that Knight goes into the games knowing he is going to take 16-18 shots versus 11-12? Really?

      Also, as I pointed out before, in games in which Knight attempt 16+ shots, he shoots 42.4%. Unless there is significant evidence that Knight is a totally different player than he was last season, there is no good reason to throw out more than half of the data we have on him. And his overall stat line bears out that he is basically exactly the same player.

      • Feb 27, 201312:20 pm
        by I HATE FRANK

        Reply

        For the record!!! in the 2012-2013 reason

        Knight of has 7 games where he has took more than 16 shots

        in those 7 games he is 58-128 that 45.3!

        And yes the sample is TOO Small….

        And YES, I believe is Knight knew he’d get up more attempts and offense was adjusted slightly for him to take advantage of his offensive skills a scorer…you’d see a much different player in Knight… 

  • Feb 27, 20139:09 am
    by Dan Feldman

    Reply

    I’ve really enjoyed following the discussion on this thread, and I want to contributed a few numbers. G’s point that Knight shoots a lot after he’s shot well early and that a total-game field-goal percentage is boosted by those early shots has numbers to back it up.

    After 16

    Looking at only the games Knight takes more than 16 shots, Knight’s shooting percentage drops after his first 16 shots.

    In his first 16 shots, Knight shoots 45.5 percent (51-of-112).
     
    After that, Knight shoots 43.8 percent (7-of-16).

    By comparison, Knight shoots 39.8 percent (211-of-530) in the games he doesn’t take more than 16 shots.

    After average
    That’s a pretty small sample, so let’s lower the line a bit. Knight averages 11.8 points per game. Let’s look at only games Knight takes more than his average number of shots.
    Before reaching his season average, Knight shoots 42.8 percent (127-of-297).
    After that, Knight shoots 38.5 percent. (40-of-104).
    By comparison, Knight shoots 39.7 percent (102-of-257) in the games he takes a lower-than-average number of shots. 

    So…

    The numbers indicate Knight shoots more only when something goes right early, and if he keeps shooting, his field-goal percentage drops. I don’t believe Knight is good enough right now to have a favorable situation every night, the type of matchup that means good, early shooting. I certainly don’t have a problem with Knight shooting more when he has that matchup, but I see little evidence that Knight’s number of shots should go up in general.

    • Feb 27, 201312:06 pm
      by I HATE FRANK

      Reply

      I can accept that, just like I can accept it from G or Tariser…

      After 16
      Looking at only the games Knight takes more than 16 shots, Knight’s shooting percentage drops after his first 16 shots.
      In his first 16 shots, Knight shoots 45.5 percent (51-of-112).
       
      After that, Knight shoots 43.8 percent (7-of-16).
      !!!!!!!!!!By comparison, Knight shoots 39.8 percent (211-of-530) in the games he doesn’t take more than 16 shots.!!!!!!!!!!!

      EXACTLY!!!!

      I HEAR YOU its too small of a sample…with 12 games…. HOWEVER! he is still much better when he gets more shot attempts….

      Every scorer in the league talking about getting into a rhythm as a scorer…and Althought Knight was given the starting job as PG… By design he has played off the ball…and forced into becoming a more of a perimeter spot up shooter…. 

      • Feb 27, 201312:25 pm
        by G

        Reply

        Again dude, you’re putting the cart before the horse. Knight’s shot is VERY inconsistent. When it’s falling, he shoots a lot. When it isn’t falling, he shoots less. If you pick a small selection of games where he took a lot of shots (for him), you fail to account for all those games where he couldn’t find the rim and as a result only took a few shots.

        Also, Knight IS A PERIMETER SPOT UP SHOOTER! He doesn’t finish at the rack well, in fact he’s probably worst on the team. What Knight DOES do well is hit threes. Huh.

        Finally, why do you think the coaching staff/offensive scheme is the reason Knight shoots less than 12 shots per game? The Pistons are not exactly against scoring PG’s. Billups was one, and Stuckey (if you consider him a PG) and Bynum are both scoring point guards. Knight was clearly drafted as a scoring point, but failed at the “point” part of it and the scoring part isn’t terrific either.

      • Feb 27, 201312:28 pm
        by Dan Feldman

        Reply

        Your argument has a flaw. When Knight takes any shot between 1-16, he doesn’t know he’ll get shots 17+. His total number of shots should make no difference how well Knight shoots 1-16.

        When Knight shoots above 45 percent before reaching his season average for attempts, he has exceed his season average for attempts 59 percent of the time..

        When Knight shoots below 45 percent before reaching his season average for attempts, he has exceed his season average for attempts 38 percent of the time.

        In other words, whether Knight shoots a lot appears to be determined by how well he shoots earlier in games. Is that on Frank or Knight?

        • Feb 27, 20131:04 pm
          by I HATE FRANK

          Reply

          im not gonna blame Frank for knight missed shots…but I will blame him for a piss poor rotation and system…

          Once again…it depends on what side of the debate you are on….when it comes to stats…

          16 or more shots…46.6% but then you guy fire back with he gets worse dropping to 44&

          17 or more…45%…but then you guy fire back and say its from early sucess…

          I used a 12 game sample…based of the average of the league top scoring PGs….it gets called Cherry picking….

          My bottomline… is he need more shot attempts, and if he fails at that then you know what you have…. right now we have no clue what we have in Knight.

          we dont know if he is Stuckey 2.0 or What we all hoped Stuckey would be….

      • Feb 27, 201312:41 pm
        by G

        Reply

        By the way, this whole argument is also addressed in baseball with batting average. Say in a given season a player with a lifetime batting average of .300 is batting .260 with 81 games to go (half the season). Does that mean he’ll bat .340 the rest of the way to get back to his career average? No. He’s more likely to bat .300 the rest of the way, ending up at .280. He’s more likely to bat .260 the rest of the season than .340.

        Applying it to the current discussion – say Brandon Knight starts a game out cold from the field and is 1-8 in the first half. That’s a 12.5 FG%. You would suggest that if he jacked up at least 8 more shots in the second half he’d be more likely to hit at least 6 of them (75%) because when he shoots more he scores more efficiently.

        This is wrong. Brandon Knight’s FG% this year is about 41%, meaning he’s much more likely to hit 3 of those additional 8 shots than say 6 of them.  

        • Feb 27, 201312:47 pm
          by G

          Reply

          amendment to the 2nd paragraph – going 6-8 in the 2nd half would get Knight close to that 46.6 FG% that I HATE FRANK says he would average if he took 16 shots per game.

          • Feb 27, 20131:16 pm
            by I HATE FRANK

            im saying lets see what happens!

            Im saying Brandon Knight is a Elite or Will be elite!

            But if we do not find out what we have in him, then we wasted a draft pick.

  • Feb 27, 20131:20 pm
    by I HATE FRANK

    Reply

    im saying lets see what happens!
    Im NOT! saying Brandon Knight is a Elite or Will be elite!
    But if we do not find out what we have in him, then we wasted a draft pick.

    • Feb 27, 20133:33 pm
      by G

      Reply

      Here’s what you said (and I’m paraphrasing): 
      1) Brandon Knight should try to be a scoring point instead of a passing point (or a shooting guard)
      2) Knight’s FG% suffered when he tried to be a passing point  
      3) Hey, when he takes at least 16 shots his FG% goes up, so he should shoot at least 16 shots per game
      4) If he jacks up a bunch of shots and sucks, then at least we’ll know he sucks 

      Here are my counterpoints:
      1) Brandon Knight’s failure as a PG came from his inability to run the offense, which is necessary if you’re a scoring point or a passing point. Decision making problems = shooting guard
      2) Knight never really was a passing point, often the offense ran through Monroe or Tayshaun
      3) We talked this to death, tarsier killed the 16 shot attempts thing when he broke down what Knight’s FG% by number of attempts… basically the 16+ shot attempts appears to be the RESULT of good shooting, not the CAUSE.
      4) I totally disagree with this. The Pistons should be encouraging Knight to “find his way in the offense”, not urging him to jack up shot after shot. I don’t want to waste him either, forcing him to shoot on a cold night or against a bad match up would do way more damage than good.

      You can’t expect Knight to perfectly integrate with a new role & new teammate instantly. He actually was having a pretty good game before he went down, and actually several of those shots were spot-up jumpers. His skill-set fits the 2-guard better anyway. He reminds me a bit of Jason Terry that way, they tried to make him a PG when he’s really a short SG.

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    Reply

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