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Two more reasons I don’t like the Ben Gordon trade

When the Pistons traded Ben Gordon and a first-round pick for Corey Maggette, I made pretty clear I hated the trade, but Ben Gordon returning to town with the Bobcats yesterday provided a chance to evaluate the deal with more hindsight.

I still hate it.

And as I’ve considered the trade more, I’ve discovered two new problems I didn’t cover in my initial post.

Trade limitations

The Pistons can’t trade a first-round pick, like, ever – or at least until the Bobcats receive the pick they’re owed, and who knows when that will be?*

*As a reminder, here are the protections: lottery-protected in 2013, top-8 protected in 2014, top-1 protected in 2015 and unprotected in 2016.

The Pistons can’t trade their 2013 first rounder, because it might already belong to Charlotte. They can’t trade their 2014 first-round pick for the same reason. Or their 2015 or 2016 first rounders.

Heck, they can’t even trade their 2017 first-round pick, because of another rule.

NBA teams must have a first rounder at least every other year into the future, which is called the Stepien rule. Larry Coon explains the rule in more detail here, but here’s the relevant portion for this situation:

When dealing with protected picks, the Stepien rule is interpreted to mean that teams can’t trade a pick if there is any chance it will leave the team without a first round pick in consecutive future drafts.

So, because the Pistons might not have a 2016 first rounder, they can’t trade their 2017 first rounder.

The Pistons could gain flexibility if they acquire another first-round pick – the Stepien rule prevents a team from having consecutive future drafts without a first-round pick, not necessarily its own first-round pick  – but until they do, they’re stuck.

So, when you’re proposing trade ideas between now and Feb. 21, don’t include the Pistons’ first-round pick.

Summer of 2013 or bust

The Pistons have to use their cap space this summer. They can’t look at the market, decide there are no value options and defer until next offseason. Otherwise, the entire trade would have been pointless.

Detroit traded the last two years of Gordon’s contract for the final year of Maggette’s, essentially giving themselves cap room one year early. So, if they don’t use that cap room this summer, they’ll look pretty foolish.

Of course, the Pistons could wait until 2014 if they don’t like the 2013 market, and anyone who understands sunk costs would give them at least partial credit for their patience. But I don’t think the Pistons will operate that way.

I think they’ve backed themselves into a corner, where they’re going to spend this money this summer – no matter what.

97 Comments

  • Jan 7, 20135:01 pm
    by Sheed

    Reply

    Is there any chance for the pistons to get rudy gay and jose calderon this summer? That will make us nearly contender

    • Jan 7, 20135:12 pm
      by Jodi Jezz

      Reply

      I hope so…

      • Jan 7, 20135:48 pm
        by Stuckey and Whoever

        Reply

        When Drummond finally starts in 2030, start him already!!!  We need someone fill that grand cannon of a hole.  Nikola Vucevic makes less than 2 mill a year.  His had a 20pt and 30rbn game this year and is 22.  Greivis Vasquez also makes less than 2 mill a year I think and is putting up crazy good numbers..he is 25, 6-6.  Dump some of these contracts and go after these guys.  As much as I would like to see an up grade at the SF, Tay is a type of player who can still be effective until he is near 40.  Stuckey is the only real guard on this team and still does the most for the team.  Daye, CV, MAX, even maybe Knight..good time to make a deal.  I would like to keep Jonas but only if he wants to play hard, I don’t think Frank likes when all he wants to do is step out and shoot threes.  As multi talented as he may be Frank is right on that because the team does not need that right now.

        • Jan 7, 20135:57 pm
          by Stuckey and Whoever

          Reply

          Front Page of Nba.com
          Although Brandon Knight is a starter in Detroit, you shouldn’t rush to add him to your fantasy team.

          • Jan 8, 201310:15 am
            by tarsier

            Haha. Very true, though. Knight’s been a mediocre PG this year (which is a pleasant surprise because he was a project pick and was awful last year). Although, I do own him in one league because it is a dynasty league and I expect him to improve. And because it is a deep league and there aren’t great FA options.

  • Jan 7, 20135:03 pm
    by Vic

    Reply

    Those are pretty good reasons to hate that trade. Also the fact that there are few good free agents that they need and that are worth overpaying. 

    Maybe one good thing – it helped pre-tank the season. I shudder to think how good Ben Gordon would be playing off of Drummond. If Daye CV and Will Bynum could resurrect their game playing with Drummond, Ben Gordon would have been unstoppable

    • Jan 7, 20136:01 pm
      by gmehl

      Reply

      Yeah i heard rumors that Joe actually tried to trade CV rather than BG but no one wanted CV. It makes sense due to the glut of PF we have.

  • Jan 7, 20135:04 pm
    by joe dumars

    Reply

    I believe if the Pistons have their pick this year, they still have the ability to trade it after the draft.

  • Jan 7, 20135:05 pm
    by Steve K

    Reply

    All valid points.

    It’s incredible that — as much as people wanted BG out of town — Dumars sent him packing the only way that still pissed everyone off. He gave up a 1st round pick. Just unacceptable. It was a foolish move, and I still can’t believe he did it. What a waste.

    Am I surprised that BG played well last night? Of course not. Why not make the Pistons fans suffer. All the Pistons did was pay BG a ton of money and, in return, have BG play like total shite for 3 years straight. Why not hold a grudge? 

  • Jan 7, 20135:13 pm
    by joe dumars

    Reply

    I think what’s lost in this is how terrible Maggette is. I honestly can’t believe people thought he would be an upgrade for Ben.

    • Jan 7, 20135:29 pm
      by David

      Reply

      agreed. The lost 1st rounder would be a much less painful loss if the Maggette was playing well enough to become serious I’m-a-good/decent SG-Veteran presence-and $10million expiring contract type trade bait. 

      instead he’s just an expiring contract. might get moved. or he’ll clear the pistons cap space a bit. maybe that’ll work out well.

      • Jan 7, 20135:41 pm
        by tarsier

        Reply

        I don’t care how Maggette played. Short of a fantastic FA haul this summer, ti was just a really, really stupid trade.

        If Dumars lands CP3 or Dwight or second tier FAs at significantly less than amax deal, I’ll change my tune. Bu that never looked to be in the cards. 

  • Jan 7, 20135:14 pm
    by Jodi Jezz

    Reply

    We traded my boy Ben Gordon and now we have bum a** Singler starting as our SG…Come on Dumars, do better bro…

    • Jan 7, 20135:38 pm
      by tarsier

      Reply

      “Your boy” was awful in Motown. But taking a year off his deal wasn’t worth a first rounder. More like a second rounder or maybe two.

      • Jan 7, 20137:43 pm
        by Jodi Jezz

        Reply

        I agree his first 2 years were awful, but he got it together his 3rd year…During his 3rd year we saw a higher FG% and he was usually productive when he entered the game…On the other hand, I didn’t think the trade was bad…I don’t think 12-13ppg off the bench is worth 12mil per season…

        • Jan 7, 20139:39 pm
          by tarsier

          Reply

          The trade was bad. 12-13 ppg off the bench is definitely not worth 12M/yr. But getting that contract off the books one year sooner is not worth a first round draft pick either.

  • Jan 7, 20135:17 pm
    by jake

    Reply

    why would they HAVE to spend their money this offseason? that’s exactly the line of thinking that screwed us over for 100 million last time (BG & CV). they could extend monroe, eventually dump prince, and still have plenty of money to spend in 2014 with a cheap young core still intact. 

    • Jan 7, 20135:32 pm
      by David

      Reply

      extending monroe will actually involve spending money, btw. It unlikely the early year of cap space afforded by this trade will matter in terms of purely extending moose. But it will give the front office the freedom to extend him and still have space to acquire… chris paul (i wish).

       

      • Jan 7, 20135:48 pm
        by jake

        Reply

        they turned the reigns of the offense to monroe, stuckey, and knight with the trade. i think speeding up the development of our young core was the main reason joe made the move. 

    • Jan 7, 20135:39 pm
      by tarsier

      Reply

      They don’t HAVE to. But if they don’t, they threw away a first round pick for absolutely zero return. That knowledge tends to influence decision making.

    • Jan 7, 201311:55 pm
      by jacob

      Reply

      Detroit traded the last two years of Gordon’s contract for the final year of Maggette’s, essentially giving themselves cap room one year early. So, if they don’t use that cap room this summer, they’ll look pretty foolish.           WHY COMMENT ON AN ATTICLE YOU DIDN’T READ?????

  • Jan 7, 20135:25 pm
    by frankie d

    Reply

    o no…
    hated the trade from the very beginning.  it never made sense.
    thanks for the analysis, as it definitely clarifies some important points that i’d not even thought about before.
    now, considering this info, the trade looks even worse.
    i never quite got the BG hate.
    was he overpaid?
    seriously, but that was not his fault.
    could he play?
    he was basically the same player he’d always been.  
    his numbers were down, but then he was never used the way he’d been used before.
    another dumars special.
    please…someone get him out of there before he does more damage!!! 

  • Jan 7, 20135:35 pm
    by mixmasta

    Reply

    Why not sign Scott Machado? :)

    • Jan 8, 20139:08 am
      by Crispus

      Reply

      I agree but who do we drop?

  • Jan 7, 20135:40 pm
    by cr29

    Reply

    Why does Joe hate draft picks so much?

  • Jan 7, 20135:42 pm
    by tarsier

    Reply

    Thanks for the analysis Dan. I never knew how protected picks worked. I wasn’t sure if you could trade the pick to one team if it fell in one range and another team if it didn’t.

  • Jan 7, 20135:58 pm
    by Brigs

    Reply

    The thing I don’t like about the trade is the fact that joe d said he wants to keep the expiering contracts untill the summer. Why would u put yourself even further in a corner, I mean there’s a real good chance that the t wolves will be lookin to trade Kevin love I’m pretty sure Greg Monroe and maggette would get the deal Done but I guess joe already said no before he even tried

    • Jan 7, 20138:11 pm
      by Jordan

      Reply

      No way does Monroe and Maggette get Love.

      • Jan 7, 20138:42 pm
        by Brigs

        Reply

        Y not Monroe is a good younger player at the same position and they get to free up cap space. It’s been reported that love isn’t happy with the extension he got and has been injured a few times this season already so khan could use those reasons to justify doin the trade to his fan base and I think every piston fan would agree that love fits our team a 100 times better

        • Jan 8, 20132:35 am
          by oats

          Reply

          Even Khan knows that isn’t a fair deal. Monroe is a good player, but Love is a star player. Love is a top 10 guy. These guys aren’t close talent wise, and Love is only 2 years older than Monroe making age a non factor in the decision. Either you are way overvaluing Monroe or you are way undervaluing Love. If Khan accepts that deal he should be fired.

          • Jan 8, 20133:17 am
            by Brigs

            Maybe i am overvauling Monroe but I do think that deal could get done wit maybe one more player prolly like daye and we can even throw in Middleton or English in there. u guys seem to forget that kHan values Rubio alot more then love so like continues to complain to the media they will do that trade in an heartbeat

  • Jan 7, 20136:24 pm
    by Gareth Masters

    Reply

    It just gets worse and worse. Cheers for the insight Dan…

  • Jan 7, 20136:28 pm
    by bvpiston

    Reply

    Well, I like the Maggette-BG trade. I liked BG, he just never found a niche with us. Most importantly, he was overpaid. So is Maggette(difference is he expires in the summer). But…all this trade limitation talk is just an assumption. Here’s how I see it:
    First, let’s remember the pick is protected. So Joe D only gave this pick away under certain circumstances. I think he pretty much figured out that we weren’t going to make the playoffs this season. That means we’ll keep our pick this offseason. He got a little more confident that after he’d make some eventual moves, we’ll be pretty close to the POs next season, resulting in the pick only being top-8 protected. I have no problem with that. The draft is a crap shoot. You could win big or fail miserably. We’re never going to be bad enough to get a top-3 pick and get a chance at an impact player right away. We’ll be near the bottom of the lottery, where we could pick a solid rotation player. Well…no, thanks, there’s plenty already in the league each season available as free agents. 
    How much younger do we need to get? Really! We already have Dre, Moose, Knight, Singler and possibly English and Middleton. These guys will grow (hoping BK will, because he’s been very disappointing so far). Adding to those mentioned before will be our pick this upcoming summer. That’s plenty of young players on the roster. We’ll need some vets that can play. Not ancient Maggette, not inconsitent-but-fun-to-watch Bynum. Cliff Robinson-type players, Jon Barry-type players, Corliss-type players is what we need. 
    I just don’t see any downside for us with this trade. If we’re crying about our pick that means we’re planning on “rebuilding” another 4-5 years…Pass! I see this team being decent real soon, not five years from now. I’m sick of rebuilding and wanting youth. We’re already there!

    • Jan 7, 20139:42 pm
      by tarsier

      Reply

      “First, let’s remember the pick is protected. So Joe D only gave this pick away under certain circumstances.”

      No, the Bobcats definitely get the pick. All that depends on circumstances is which year they receive the pick.

    • Jan 8, 201312:02 am
      by jacob

      Reply

      This wasn’t a terrible trade, but we need to make another trade or sign a really good FA this summer.

  • Jan 7, 20136:39 pm
    by Nick

    Reply

    Its funny how the one person we traded is the one person we need to make the Pistons a playoff team LOL. I think Joe was gonna go after James Harden with that cap space but Houston messed it up for him. I would sign Eric Bledsoe as a free agent. I dont think Josh Smith fits with Detroit system and Cuban is not gonna let Mayo leave Dallas.

    • Jan 7, 20139:45 pm
      by tarsier

      Reply

      I’m fine with signing Bledsoe… if he can be had for <$5M/yr. And that probably isn’t happening. Bledsoe has talent. But he is a limited role type player. Make him your PG of the future and it will work out like Darren Collison.

      • Jan 7, 201310:27 pm
        by Stuckey and Whoever

        Reply

        Bledsoe for 5M/yr?!!  8 ppg bledsoe…he may be better than bynum but not for that money.

        • Jan 8, 201310:12 am
          by tarsier

          Reply

          A) I said less than 5M/yr. Which I doubt would actually be possible.

          B) Bynum makes over 3M/yr. So unless you think he is only microscopically better than Bynum, or you think Bynum is way overpaid, I don’t understand the strength of your objection or why you chose Bynum as the comparison.

          • Jan 8, 201312:06 pm
            by Stuckey and Whoever

            Because there numbers are about the same, case in point and Bynum does it for less money.  Yeah right now I do think he is only microscopically better than bynum and the proof says it.

          • Jan 8, 201312:13 pm
            by Stuckey and Whoever

            Numbers do not lie…watch the show.  sorry man had to do it.

          • Jan 8, 20131:30 pm
            by tarsier

            That’s a fair critique. But of course, Bledsoe’s strongest point is his D. And that is Bynum’s weakest point. And it doesn’t show up much in the numbers.

            Offensively, I’d agree that they are pretty equal. Although Bledsoe is much more consistent than Bynum. That could be seen as good or bad. It means he usually helps, unlike Bynum who is hit or miss. But he will probably never take over a game as Bynum has done several times.

            In summary, Will Bynum = Nate Robinson 

  • Jan 7, 20138:44 pm
    by Vic

    Reply

    Bledsoe is the guy but is he even available this year? 
    The Pistons are 1 or 2 well- fitting players away from contention…

    Bledsoe or Kyle Lowry would be the best fits, but would be hard to get.

    Good talent can be found in the draft way more efficiently than in free agency 

    • Jan 7, 201310:32 pm
      by Stuckey and Whoever

      Reply

      Greivis Vasquez is the man.  Getting paid less than Bledsoe, way less than Lowry and ave 14/9/5.  9 assist a game for the Hornets, the 9 -25 hornets.!

      • Jan 8, 20139:20 am
        by Crispus

        Reply

        He’s killing it for my fantasy team (General Greivis). No way the Hornets give him up for anything less than a star though.

        • Jan 8, 201312:00 pm
          by Stuckey and Whoever

          Reply

          Dude is a stat machine and can actually run an offense!  And I also have him in both my fantasy teams. 

        • Jan 8, 201312:12 pm
          by Stuckey and Whoever

          Reply

          I dont know if all they are going to take is a star, Bk7 and a couple of others may due.  Add some cash not a ton but enough.  If it was next year and he was doing this yeah, but this is good timing to make something happen.  Especially with our bench playing the way they are.

        • Jan 8, 20132:01 pm
          by Crispus

          Reply

          But they already have Austin Rivers and Gordon and then they’ll have Knight. Three guards who aren’t great passers when they currently have Vasquez who is playing like Andre Miller in his prime.

  • Jan 7, 201310:00 pm
    by domnick

    Reply

    well for me…

    why not trade before the deadline and see if we could get better and young players…

    i can’t see why we cant trade Tay prince..

  • Jan 8, 201312:00 am
    by jacob

    Reply

    I would trade anyone but Drummond and Monroe.

  • Jan 8, 20131:10 am
    by Otis

    Reply

    This trade never made any sense ever. The draft pick thing I never thought about (and, honestly, they can always trade into the bottom of the first round the year they lose their pick), but I’ve mentioned before (maybe not here) that it was a bizarre price to pay for getting cap space one year sooner, and a summer when it doesn’t seem like a good year to have cap space. Again.

    And yeah, Serge Ibaka and James Harden were supposed to be free agents when Joe made that awful trade. And they were two of the maybe four decent free agents we had any chance at all of overpaying to come here. But so was Carlos Boozer before the infamous summer of 2009, and we all saw how that worked out. This is why NOW is the time to reshape the roster, not during the summer when we’ve already lost much of our trade flexibility.

  • Jan 8, 20131:24 am
    by Swilling56

    Reply

    This trade would have been sweat if we wouldn’t have sighed Prince back. We would have more cap space this summer to get maybe two good players.. Now all we can do is pray for Rudy Gay because he is the only free agent that makes since for this team.

    • Jan 8, 20132:47 am
      by oats

      Reply

      Except Rudy Gay isn’t a free agent. He signed a 5 year deal in 2010. There are some rumors that Memphis will look to trade him either at the deadline or in the summer, but that isn’t a given and we have no idea if Detroit has something to interest them.

    • Jan 8, 20132:56 am
      by oats

      Reply

      Almost forgot, the top free agents appear to be Josh Smith, OJ Mayo, Al Jefferson, and Paul Millsap. Most people think Utah will hold on to Jefferson but let Millsap move on, but you never know. It also makes sense that Dallas would lock up Mayo, so we’re probably looking at Smith and Millsap.
       
      I didn’t understand why the BG trade was timed when it was. Considering Charlotte won that trade I’m betting they’d have done it if we insisted on waiting for the extension deadline to pass. If we did we would have seen the Harden trade that removed both him and Ibaka from the upcoming crop of free agents. Maybe then Dumars wouldn’t have made the deal, but if he still wanted to then Charlotte would be dumb to turn it down. It seems like he could have waited until he had more information on whether or not the deal makes sense.

  • Jan 8, 20131:42 am
    by inigo montoya

    Reply

    I liked Ben Gordon.  I thought that his talents were misused as a Piston.  If you look at his stats, the biggest difference now that he is with the Bobcats is that BG is attempting something like 6.7 3FGA per 36 minutes while as a Piston BG was only attempting approx. 4 3FGA/36 minutes.  BG actually has a slightly higher TO rate this year and interestingly his FTA rate has decreased.

    Still all-in-all I still think it was not that bad of trade.  I don’t think Ben Gordon was going to make the Pistons all that much better this year, especially the way the Pistons used him and I did not think Magette was going to make that much difference for either team.  Essentially the Pistons sold their draft pick to the Bobcats for $10 million.  If the Bobcats don’t get the pick this year, probably they will get it next year, probably around, let’s say number 12 in 2014.  Usually in most years you can buy the 23rd or 24th pick for $3 million so paying $10 million for the 12th pick seems a little high. Not as good as the Spurs did when the Spurs essentially sold the 30th pick of 2012 (Festus Ezeli) to the Warriors for the equivalent of Richard Jefferson’s salary this year, $9 million.

    Despite the loss to the Bobcats, I don’t think the Pistons are that far off from playoff contention.  I think the Pistons have more talent than Toronto, the Magic or 76ers and they could easily battle the Bucks and the Celtics for the 8th spot.  It will be interesting to see if Frank can get the team to turn it up a notch and get the team playing tighter, i.e. reduce the bad passes and the opponent’s steals and concentrate on the FT line.  

    Also play a more aggressive defense, Detroit ranks 28th in the league in defensive play rates despite ranking 10th in blocked shots.

    http://hoopdata.com/teamdefstats.aspx

    I don’t think the Pistons need to spend the money this year in order for the trade to be successful.  Having the ability to take on salary is huge and usually when you take in salary you usually get a 1st round draft pick back, just like the Bobcats and Warriors did.  

    I am also quite sure that the entire Piston management including the owner signed off on that trade and if the owner wants to run below the salary cap team next year, well that is the owner’s prerogative.  But everybody knows that the only way Gores gets some kind of return on his investment is to draw fans and the surest way, if not the only way to draw fans, is to win.

  • Jan 8, 20133:13 am
    by Satchel

    Reply

    This is a great posting… really sports blogging at it’s best. Solid analysis.

    I disagree on the trade. It’s the BG/CV SIGNINGS that were murderous to the franchise. Those were fire-able offenses – even for a GM who won a title.

    But the 2017 talk is ridiculous. The Pistons are not a playoff team but they’re not getting worse when Drummond starts next year. So they lose the pick in 2014. If they are a playoff team, good trade. If not, bad trade…. a late first round pick is worth $14 million.

    This means, Dumars HAS to pull the trigger on a big deal before next season. If they are a lottery team and lose the pick he’s unemployed. He’s like a politician with an election coming up. No playoffs in 2013-14, Dumars gets fired.

     

    • Jan 8, 201310:07 am
      by tarsier

      Reply

      If only I shared your optimism. At his point, I don’t know what it would take to get Dumars fired.

      If you’re a mechanic and you manage to screw up even more ten cars in a row that you work on and you’re still employed, do you really expect to get fired when you run the streak up to 15? 

  • Jan 8, 20139:48 am
    by Chris N

    Reply

    I’m not sure that’s correct Dan.  If the Pistons make the playoffs this year then their 2013 pick would belong to Cleveland.  If not, the pick belongs to Detroit.  The Pistons would be free to trade the pick provided they receive a first round pick for this year (as they may anticipate not being a team with a top 8 pick next season) or a first rounder for the 2014 season (when its possible and, perhaps, probable that the pick would be surrendered to Cleveland.) 

    So long as the Pistons acquire a pick to make up the deficit of not having their own, they’re free to trade first rounders to their heart’s content.

    That’s how I read it at least.

  • Jan 8, 201310:03 am
    by tarsier

    Reply

    With Dwight injured again and all the lack of chemistry in Lakerland even with him active, I wonder if he could be available for trade. Obviously, he’d command a hefty price, but Monroe+Prince+Max might get it done (possibly also include Stuckey and/or Jerebko).

    Pau, Howard, and Jordan Hill are all out and the Lakers haven’t built up a cushion of wins to wait on their returns, so they’ve gotta be desperate for an infusion of good big men.

    http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine 

    • Jan 8, 201310:04 am
      by tarsier

      Reply

      * http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=b2eqxux

    • Jan 8, 201311:15 am
      by Chris N

      Reply

      Dwight Howard isn’t healthy, may not be fully recovered from his previous injury and will be a free agent at the end of the season.  Those three things lead me to believe that they Pistons would trade for him.  They’d essentially be giving away cap space, a promising young talent and a steady rotation player for the right to not have Howard play and be able to line up to bid on his services as a free agent in the off-season.  I don’t see Dumars taking that offer. 

      • Jan 8, 201311:54 am
        by tarsier

        Reply

        It’s a lot more than the right to line up to bid for him. They would have the right to offer him the most favorable deal of anyone in the league. I don’t know that Howard would resign. But given how his LA experiment has fared, he may be a bit wary of giving up a ton of money to chase greener pastures.

        It would certainly be a risky deal. I don’t even know if I’d be totally on board. But it’s the sort of swinging for the fences bold deal that could save the franchise. And this season, Dwight’s health issues should help the Pistons wind up with a good draft pick. And if Dwight stays, the Pistons have a core set up to contend for years.

        If Howard walks, the cap space is not blown and the Pistons just need to go sign Jefferson or Millsap or Smith. That player will be a downgrade from Monroe, but not a huge one. And while the player comes at a higher pricetag, it won’t be for long, because Monroe will most likely get a max deal when his rookie deal expires.

        I don’t see Dumars taking the deal either because I don’t think Dumars is a good GM. He is risk averse and overvalues his own players. I don’t think the Lakers would take it either. But it seems like the kind of deal that both would have to spend a good while considering. 

      • Jan 8, 20132:04 pm
        by Crispus

        Reply

        Can you imagine Dwight and Drummond playing defense together when we “go big”? We’d be able to outscore teams 10-4 for the quarter.

        • Jan 8, 20132:21 pm
          by tarsier

          Reply

          :)

          Also, with an inactive Dwight, Drummond would have to play 30+ minutes per game. Slava could get minutes too. And Jerebko might make his way back into the lineup. I don’t know who else would back up Drummond and CV.

          • Jan 8, 20133:43 pm
            by Brigs

            Do u guys not see that the problem in LA is that they have 2 centers do u really think Drummond and Howard next to each other would be better wen we have way inferior guards then they do

          • Jan 8, 20135:16 pm
            by tarsier

            It’s certainly a chance I’d be willing to take.

  • Jan 8, 201310:07 am
    by Rich

    Reply

    “I think they’ve backed themselves into a corner, where they’re going to spend this money this summer – no matter what.”
    You’d think Dumars would have learned that lesson the summer of ’09.  Guess not…

  • Jan 8, 201311:04 am
    by MarkButter

    Reply

    Well, BG wasn’t going to get it done in Det.  With Stuck, Knight & BG as our back court, that’s a small backcourt on most nights.

    I’d rather see Knight develop (or not) with more minutes to determine if he’s our PG.  With BG around, that would have slowed.

    We can spend money next summer.  To have another rookie with the pick (though it is lottery protected), would make us too young.  Monroe, Knight, Drummond, Singler, Middleton & English, we’ve got 6 guys with 3 years or less, and 5 with two or less.  Adding another rookie, and I don’t seeing an impact guy in the NCAA right now (excl’g perhaps Zeller at IU), we probably wouldn’t be adding anything speacial.

    And given how we thought we might fight for a playoff spot and have the 15+ pick if we did make the playoffs, just re-enforces that we don’t need another young player.

    Granted, it does make our trade prospects a little harder, but if we can pick up a decent vet with a trade, and given our cap room maybe absorb his contract fully while getting a pick from a team to do it, then were OK. 

    But it’s darn near impossible to get a trade to work salary wise one-one, which this did.  Plus we do have a small trade exception that can be applied to our cap cost or in a trade.

    Neither maggette or Gordon were going to be long term solutions for us.  We shaved ~10M from our cap next summer for possibilities.  Plus, with the new CBA, part of the cap penalty now includes a penalty if you exceed the cap in any 3 out of 5 years.  Plus, we can still amnesty CV (if Gores wants to pay him) and have even more cap room.  We’re flexible, which we haven’t really been since we signed BG/CV in the summer of 2009.  That counts for alot with the new CBA and it’s escalating penalties.

  • Jan 8, 201311:07 am
    by Chris N

    Reply

    I’m still not sold that the Ben Gordon trade was a terrible move.  

    Gordon didn’t work out in Detroit.  Keeping him until his contract ended or until they could move him didn’t seem like a viable course of action it was a inefficient use of cap space. Every minute Gordon played for the Pistons and every dollar the team spent on his contract was playing time and cap space that would be unavailable to use on other-hopefully more productive-players.

    Amnestying Gordon would have served the same purpose as keeping him (the Pistons would still be responsible for paying the lion share of his salary even if it cleared up his place on the team’s salary cap) and would have likely constrained them from being as active in the market as they are likely to be this off-season.

    The first-rounder they traded could turn out to be a significant loss, but it could just as easily wind up becoming a boon to the team’s ability to move forward.  If the pick winds up occurring in a very weak draft class (think the 2000 draft) then really, what do the Pistons lose out on?  A three year commitment to mediocre player that could just as easily be duplicated by a pick in the second round?  Not a bad swap. 

    One thing that hasn’t been mentioned is the ramifications of the salary cap going forward.  Teams that are over the threshold can’t, for the most part, afford to stay there.  Which means opportunities for teams that have cap space.  I’d point to Denver and Houston as beneficiaries of such trades.

    Denver plucked a dynamic player like Andre Igudala from Philadelphia for a future draft pick and Igudala’s (sizable) salary.  Houston got one of the most dynamic players in the league for a solid, but frequently unspectacular, Kevin Martin; two first round draft picks, a second round pick and the young and developing Jeremy Lamb.  In both instances the teams doing the trading did so because they needed to shed (or avoid taking on) salary to improve their team.  The teams doing the trading had room (and assets) to accommodate them.

    Admittedly, the first round pick could come back to sting the Pistons if the player it materializes into becomes star player.  But its true worth is difficult to assess until a player is drafted.  The same can be said for cap space, but I argue that it holds the potential to reap much greater returns much more quickly than a lone draft pick.

    I’m holding out hope (and judgement) on how good or bad the Gordon trade was until we see what kind of results it will ultimately bear. 

    • Jan 8, 201311:57 am
      by tarsier

      Reply

      Agreed that it wasn’t necessarily terrible. But if the cap space is not used productively, it is–regardless of what happens with the draft pick. Because the draft pick is a crapshoot. But also the best way to build a team.

    • Jan 8, 20131:55 pm
      by apa8ren9

      Reply

      I agree, I dont think the trade was bad at all.  We have to remember the big picture.  It opened up all of the possibilities to improve your team when at first you had none.  Now that Gordon’s salary is no longer an albatross you can see cap space.  It was just last year everyone said we have no cap space.  It can change just like that.  What this trade did, like it or not is put everyone on notice.  Can we not see this.  If Joe doesnt make the best of this he’s gone.  Plain and simple.  Then all the haters will be happy.  That wont improve our position as a franchise but Joe will be out.
      Regardless of what you think of Joe, this will be our shot to improve.  Im sure there will be lots of possibilities available that havent materialized yet.  These high salary teams have to start shedding salary because of the new CBA. All of the new rules are just starting to kick in, and I believe you have to spend approximately 85-90% of the cap mandatory.  So you cant just go cheap.  I really believe in the off season there are going to be lots of trades and player movement.

  • Jan 8, 201312:11 pm
    by Derek

    Reply

    I think Utah will let Milsap walk this summer.  They have Enes Kanter and Derrick Favors locked in for years.  Jefferson may price himself out of Utah.  He hasn’t proven that he can be THAT guy to take them to elite status or regular contention.  Still in his mind he may view himself as one of the top three post players in the NBA.  The problem is, he only makes an impact on one side of the court (offense). 

    Kanter and Favors is probably their frontcourt of the future.  The question they have to answer is if those players are ready to play a prominent role now.  So part of me feels like there’s a possibility that Jefferson and Milsap walk.  For the Pistons, I think Milsap would be a serviceable back up for the 4 and 5.  Jefferson…meh.

    This leaves us requiring a replacement for Prince (Gay), a back up pg (Calderon), and shooting guard (JJ Redick, Wesley Matthews, or OJ Mayo).  The feasibility of the BG trade can only be determined based on what we do with our fiscal leverage.  Hopefully our future moves put us in a better place to contend.

    • Jan 8, 20132:10 pm
      by Crispus

      Reply

      I like all 5 of the guys you name in the last paragraph, but they are all on the upswing. We’d be buying high. I wonder if we can find underused guys who just need a change of scenery and more PT, like the guys (Jerebko, English, Daye until recently) we have sitting on our bench.

  • Jan 8, 201312:12 pm
    by Derek

    Reply

    Randy Foye will also be available.

  • Jan 8, 20131:41 pm
    by vic

    Reply

    I think I’ve settled on my advice for the Pistons. Draft:

    Otto Porter or Trey Burke= both are good passers and scorers. (Michael Carter Williams can’t shoot. Shabazz Muhammad can’t pass).

    Trey can run an offense with natural talent without taking 5 years to develop court vision. Drummond can clean up for Trey on defense.

    If we draft Otto Porter, sign Kyle Lowry as PG of right now and the future.

    If we draft Trey Burke, sign Paul Millsap as backup PF. 

    Move Knight to SG so he can outwork and outhustle and outspeed and outshoot other SGs. 

     

    • Jan 8, 20132:42 pm
      by tarsier

      Reply

      Lowry isn’t going to be an FA this summer. The Pistons could go after Calderon, but he is more limited and getting older. But then, he doesn’t seem to have the sort of game that will drop off suddenly with age.

      I’d love Lowry, but that ain’t happening without a trade. Calderon wouldn’t be terrible though. But I don’t know how much of an upgrade over Knight he is. Just stylistically very different. 

      • Jan 8, 20133:39 pm
        by vic

        Reply

        Calderon would be nice… but he’d have to take a paycut.
        Lowry could be traded. I think Toronto will choose either one.

        Two other bigs that can be stolen for a good price:
        Greg Smith
        JJ Hickson
         
        When it comes to guards theres only:
        Lowry
        Burke
        Calderon 

  • Jan 8, 20132:28 pm
    by Corey

    Reply

    If the Pistons don’t spend all their way back to the cap in FA this summer, they’ll be under the cap during the season, opening up a lot of trade possibilities. Houston took quite a while of building assets and saving cap space before it pulled off the Harden trade. This team has quite a few rotation-caliber players and young prospects on reasonable contracts now, and has many possibilities. Granted, if all Joe does with the opportunity is sit on the money until he can give a huge extension to Brandon Knight, then fire him.

    But the way I see it, the following players could all be considered desirable (to greater or lesser degrees) on the trade market, for either contract, potential, past performance, or recent play reasons, especially with how our bench has played lately:

    Maxiel
    Prince
    Daye
    CV
    Maggette
    Stuckey
    Singler
    Jerebko
    Knight
    Bynum
    English and Middleton (could get 2nd rnd picks for them)

    and of course
    Monroe and Drummond would bring back gold

    Probably Kravtsov is the only player currently on the roster that doesn’t have trade value. And the team has extensive expiring contracts.

    JoD has done a GREAT job of giving the team assets to work with. Or was it all luck?

  • Jan 8, 20133:23 pm
    by Pratik

    Reply

    Boston has always been rumored to trade with the Pistons. We should go after Rondo, this trade would probably never happen, but it brought a smile on my face :D

    http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=ajbxg9z 

    • Jan 8, 20133:39 pm
      by tarsier

      Reply

      Yeah, never gonna happen, but it would be pretty awesome.

  • Jan 8, 20133:27 pm
    by Pratik

    Reply

    I don’t think Houston would do this, but you never know. Prince for Chandler Parsons: http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=ayjpo7t 

    • Jan 8, 20133:41 pm
      by tarsier

      Reply

      Yeah I’m doubting they’re looking to take on additional salary to get about an equally good player who is much older.

      But it’s good to have a comment thread with so many possibilities of how Joe could resurrect his reputation as a good GM.

  • Jan 8, 20135:42 pm
    by Nick

    Reply

    We need to draft Marcus Smart. He is the only player I would even consider in this yrs draft that will make the pistons a better team. He’s a leader, has skill, and the killer instinct we need at the guard position. He reminds me of James Harden and thats what we need period.

    • Jan 8, 20138:23 pm
      by Vic

      Reply

      James harden freshman shooting TS and eFG  .632 .586

      Marcus Smart  .546 .471

      1st rule of drafting, not having a TS or eFG  over .550 is a cause to pause.
       if you can’t score without jacking up tons of shots in college the pros will be a problem. Good draft picks are at or near 550, potential stars are at or near 600.

  • Jan 8, 20136:52 pm
    by gmehl

    Reply

    Ok this is alarming. I was pulling for a Rudy Gay trade until i read this:
    http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1475029-updated-rankings-of-nbas-most-and-least-efficient-stars/page/5 

    • Jan 8, 20138:25 pm
      by Vic

      Reply

      Yeah that’s why I’m not into that trade. I’d rather draft otto porter, and sign a point guard.

    • Jan 9, 20135:08 pm
      by tarsier

      Reply

      Unlike the other inefficient players on the list, this is the first time Gay has struggled in these ways. I think he has earned the benefit of the doubt that he can bounce back to better production in a system that fits him better.

  • Jan 9, 20134:45 am
    by Pratik

    Reply

    Monroe Drummond combination will work. We just need a better coach to realize that and implement with a new strategy, which would include better shooters in the starting lineup. Stuckey should be our starting PG. Prince needs to go (for the time being I would rather have Austin Daye start and be a scoring threat, with Drummond Monroe covering for him on Defense, but daye has been rebounding well, and his defense is much better then CV’s). Knight can start at the 2, or let Will Bynum go and put Knight on the bench, and develop/start kim english at the 2 next year. There were a lot of Austin Daye haters at the start of the season, but he just hasn’t been given the opportunity to make a difference in Detroit, besides a few minutes off the bench. By starting Drummond, Slava can be equally as effective playing the role of Andre but off the bench, with the current bench game plan. Jonas also needs to get back into the rotation somehow. I like what Frank is doing, but I hate the fact that he just sticks to one group for a long period of time, before the 4 game win streak, the Pistons had a 6 game losing streak, with no changes to the starting lineup. Knight Singler Prince Max and Monroe do not work at all. Max, Prince, and maybe even Will Bynum need to go, gotta use the amnesty clause on CV this summer, free agents will sign with Detroit if the Pistons can some how close this season off with a .500 overall record, there not that far away from jumping Philadelphia in the standings, but would have to play .500 to chase Boston or the Bucks for a playoff spot. And yes, we could use more 4 game winning streaks. Closing out the month of Jan, with a winning record is crucial. And winning more games on the road will determine a turnaround, but I don’t think the Pistons are improving unless they finish the season .500 either competing for a playoff spot, or finishing 9th. 
     
    Current needs:
    1). True point guard – this may sound outrageous to some, but Boston has always been rumored to be interested in Prince, Stuckey, and other Pistons talent. If we could trade both of these guys and even maybe trade Knight to Boston for Rondo, that would be huge. Boston would probably want young talent in return – but Stuckey could really work with vets like pierce and kg, and we could give either Singler, Middleton, or even Jonas or Kim English. I’d try and keep English though and maybe even Singler too.
     
    2). Tayshaun for Chandler Parsons from Houston, Houston would probably not do this, but Tay would give them playoff experience plus better defense at the 3 spot, and better ball handling skills as Jeremy Lin turns the ball over way to much, same goes with Harden. We would get a good young player in return, who has the potential to avg 17-19 ppg a game and start for us at the 3.
     
    3). Lots of talks about OJ Mayo and Rudy Gay, signing with the Pistons as FA or via trade. Personally I think there both average players that people are mistaking as franchise/star players. I would rather go for Josh Smith, not that he would want to shift base to Detroit, but money definitely matters. 
     
    Two key players that Pistons should try to continually push for, should be Rondo and Josh Smith, Demarcus Cousins is a waste of time. Drummond/Monroe are both future All Stars, who will help the team turnaround. So is knight, but he should develop a game like Rip Hamilton and play the 2 position. Bottom line we need Joe Dumars to make better decisions and envision a team that has a defensive plus offensive scoring threat like the one below:
     
    Rajon Rondo
    Brandon Knight
    Josh Smith
    Greg Monroe
    Andre Drummond
     
    Bench:Obviously we’ll need a backup point guard, but Knight can fill in here and there.

    • Jan 9, 20139:04 am
      by vic

      Reply

      I like your thoughts. 
      I agree with everything except the Josh Smith thing. He’s past the age of effectiveness at SF, and he missess too many of his 3s. The last thing we need is to bring a player to the Pistons and watch him get lazy and worse of a player.

      I would definitely agree with leaving Daye at the 3, because he fits the 3 point shooter mold perfectly.
      If we traded for Rondo, We could draft Otto Porter and Daye could be backup 3.
       

  • Jan 9, 20134:49 am
    by Pratik

    Reply

    Bench would consist of our young energy guys:  Kim English Kyle Singler Kris Middleton Jonas Jerebko Slava  But yeah we will have to get a backup point guard

  • Jan 9, 201312:26 pm
    by piston moribund

    Reply

    Hopefully the Pistons will not be signing anyone this summer.  They have enough young talent that needs to be evaluated and played.  Saying good bye to Corey, Max, and Daye will allow time for English, JJ, Middleton, and Kravtsov to play without the financial burden.  That 10+2+5 million off the books. +6 more from Rip, which seems to be slipping everyone’s mind.  Thats a 23+ million reduction in payroll.  Which makes for a really smart business play considering the lousy attendance and low payroll.  At the end of the day, its still a business and Gores will make a business decision based on the product that can be delivered.  Overpaying this summer is a really bad idea.  Gay is crap and overpaid, we dont need another power forward, unless Minny is willing to trade Love for Monroe and Prince.
    Point is, even though the Lakers have Dwight, they still suck, and will suck even more without their two big men and Hill.  You have to decide if you want to follow the OKC model and tailor the roster around a much much lesser version of Pat Ewing and Brad Miller stepchild or get rid of Bullwinkle for a legit PF and build around Dre.  This is Joe D’s last pass.

  • Jan 10, 20138:28 pm
    by damian

    Reply

    i don’t like gordon or maggette; i don’t like trading first-round draft picks.
    giving dumars the benefit of the doubt, there’s an assumption that we’ll be in contention for the eight spot, in this season, and preferred this year of free agency o’er a double digit draft selection.

  • Jan 10, 20138:29 pm
    by damian

    Reply

    i don’t like gordon or maggette; i don’t like trading first-round draft picks.
    giving dumars the benefit of the doubt, there’s an assumption that we’ll be in contention for the eight spot, in this season, and preferred this year of free agency over a double digit draft selection.

  • Jan 11, 20131:52 am
    by MrCarter

    Reply

    My hope is that Dumars targets Tyreke Evans. He would be a good fit with Knight(who tends to play more SG at times) in our backcourt since Evans can play both positions too. And I GAURUNTEE you we’ll be amnestying CV this summer. That will leave us about $20 million in cap space. Im thinking we sign Evans to, say, a 4yr/$42million(10.5mil per year) deal. Remember, Evans gives you about 17pts/4rebs/4asts per game. Sounds pretty good to me at least. As for our 1st rd pick this year(if we dont land Muhammed), we might want to look into trading down considering how weak this years class is. Just my take.

    • Jan 11, 20131:03 pm
      by James Jones

      Reply

      Makes sense to me but TE will be a restricted FA so it’s hard to say if SAC would let him go that cheap.

  • Jan 11, 201312:59 pm
    by James Jones

    Reply

    With the new CBA you have to maintain a minimum cap requirement.  So unless we can sign a bunch of guys to 1 year contracts we can’t really hold the money til 2014.

    The easiest way to fix this is trade some guys for someone that can get us in the playoffs and give the pick to Charlotte.  Any type of PG that can run the point or a SG/SF that can shot the ball plus play a little D should help.  Though I’m not sure if anyone is out there and Joe will probably trade for a big guy we don’t need…

  • Apr 10, 201312:12 am
    by Oswaldo Prill

    Reply

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