↓ Login/Logout ↓
Schedule/Results
↓ Roster ↓
Salaries
↓ Archives ↓
↓ About ↓

Greg Monroe has bounce-back performance, Pistons don’t, in loss to Philadelphia

The good news? Despite losing to Philadelphia tonight, Greg Monroe had his best offensive game since late November with 22 points on 7-for-13 shooting. Monroe bullied his way inside, he had three assists and limited his turnovers to two, got to the line 10 times and, in general, looked more comfortable than he has in some time.

The bad news? Monroe and the Pistons weren’t up to the task defensively against the Sixers. Philadelphia shot 54 percent overall and 36 percent from 3-point range, they out-rebounded the Pistons, they had 23 assists on 44 made shots and Jrue Holiday was unguardable with 21 points in the second half.

Detroit Pistons 97 FinalRecap | Box Score 104 Philadelphia 76ers
Jason Maxiell, PF 26 MIN | 1-10 FG | 0-0 FT | 11 REB | 0 AST | 2 PTS | -6Not even the fact that Maxiell was the only big on the Pistons who was active on the boards could make up for his awful shooting performance.
Tayshaun Prince, SF 37 MIN | 6-12 FG | 4-4 FT | 8 REB | 2 AST | 16 PTS | -12Prince had a good game, particularly his help on the glass, but an uncharacteristically dumb turnover late on an out of control drive when the Pistons were still in it knocks him from an A- to a B+.
Kyle Singler, SF 29 MIN | 2-4 FG | 0-0 FT | 2 REB | 2 AST | 5 PTS | -5Singler’s stat line wasn’t remarkable, but he did play pretty good defense on Jason Richardson.
Greg Monroe, C 35 MIN | 7-13 FG | 8-10 FT | 7 REB | 3 AST | 22 PTS | -8A major, major step in the right direction for the previously slumping Monroe. His defense was bad and he missed a couple of close-range shots late in the fourth that would’ve kept the Pistons close. But he also made a fantastic catch of a really wild Brandon Knight pass that had him off balance on one of those missed shots.
Brandon Knight, PG 38 MIN | 8-18 FG | 4-6 FT | 3 REB | 4 AST | 22 PTS | -6Knight started slow, but deserves credit for turning things around. Jrue Holiday, as Dan pointed out in the preview, was a tough matchup for him (the second half proved as much), but Knight turning it over just twice was a positive.
Charlie Villanueva, PF 22 MIN | 3-7 FG | 0-0 FT | 5 REB | 1 AST | 8 PTS | +1Villanueva hit a couple of big threes to keep the Pistons close in the second half, had a couple of steals and helped out on the boards more than he usually does. He also had a bad turnover late and was part of an interior defense that fell asleep late on a Jason Richardson layup off an inbounds play. So in other words, it was a typical Villanueva up and down performance.
Corey Maggette, SF 8 MIN | 0-2 FG | 3-4 FT | 2 REB | 0 AST | 3 PTS | -3Maggette continues to make a minimal, if any, impact when he’s in the game and somehow continues to hold onto his rotation spot.
Andre Drummond, C 14 MIN | 0-1 FG | 0-0 FT | 0 REB | 1 AST | 0 PTS | +1Drummond grabbed zero rebounds when he was on the floor, which is inexcusable for someone as big and talented as he is. Further complicating things, with Maxiell’s awful performance tonight, a strong performance by Drummond would’ve furthered his case for an increased role. Instead, he had his most passive effort of the season. HOWEVER … 13 minutes is still way too few for him, even in a bad performance. There’s a reason Jrue Holiday had a quiet first half and exploded in the second. Drummond’s rim-protecting presence (he did have two blocks in his 13+ minutes) changed the way Philly attacked. Without Drummond on the court, the Sixers went inside at will.
Rodney Stuckey, PG 31 MIN | 5-14 FG | 9-9 FT | 2 REB | 5 AST | 19 PTS | +3This grade was a lot higher until the final minutes of the game. Stuckey made an awful pass that resulted in a turnover, forced a three even though six seconds were left on the shot clock on another possession and was the one defending Holiday when Holiday hit a dagger jumper with less than a minute left to push Philly’s lead to five.
Lawrence Frank, CoachAlthough Drummond should’ve played more, I also don’t fault Frank much for sitting him. Sure, I think Drummond certainly would’ve made Philly think more about attacking the basket if he were on the court more in the second half. But I’ll also concede that Drummond didn’t seem to be playing particularly hard. I do, however, fault Frank for continuing to stick with Maggette. He has plenty of other bench options who deserve a shot at those minutes. And, once again, a bad start in the third quarter was a problem. The Pistons led by three at the half, but Philly erased that with a 14-0 run to open the third quarter. I have no idea what has been happening at halftime lately, but the Pistons continuously come out sluggish to start third quarters. That actually wasn’t an issue for Frank last season, it was more of a John Kuester thing, no idea why it suddenly is this season.

135 Comments

  • Dec 10, 20129:46 pm
    by tarsier

    Reply

    The Pistons ae just trying to sneak up on the league next season. Since they don’t have a flashy team like the Lakers, nobody realizes that their talent level is actually much higher than their performance. They just lead the league in stupid lineup decisions. So when they suddenly play with a modicum of sensibility next year, everyone will be like “where the heck did these guys come from? how did they get so good so fast?” And the new FAs/draftees will get tons of credit. So they will get traded for significantly more than they’re worth. And that is how the Pistons plan to return to prominence.

    That’s the idea, right? I have to convince myself that someone in the organization has a plan no matter how absurd and twisted. 

    • Dec 11, 20127:04 am
      by Vic

      Reply

      Yes that’s the only thing that makes sense, that’s why I call it reverse tanking… Plus they get to keep tdrag thigh draft pick this year if they are really bad.

      My only problem is who is doing the tanking… I don’t know if Frank is in on it and he’s just a really good actor, or if he’s really just this bad. If he is, we’ll need Laimbeer. 

  • Dec 10, 20129:51 pm
    by Ozzie-Moto

    Reply

    This is so clearly not winning basketball or wanting to become a great team basketball  but more    “Hope we don’t loose”basketball.                                                                           Drummond being developed as if he barely had an upside …….  Leave it to Detroit to ruin another players development … or at least stunt it … but hey guys you signed to over paid contracts years ago are given more years to justify their salaries.  The sad thing in i have never EVER really herd a Detroit Sports Writer call out this BS even though it has been going  on for the last 5 years   

    • Dec 10, 20129:56 pm
      by tarsier

      Reply

      Well, to be fair, it has hardly been going on for 5 years. before this season, the only prospect that really didn’t seem to get a fair shake was Macklin. Daye, Jerebko, Monroe, and Knight all got their opportunities. And except for Daye, they did take advantage of it. And it would have been foolhardy to not give BG and CV lots of chances for at least the first 2-3 seasons.

      • Dec 10, 201211:37 pm
        by frankie d

        Reply

        really?
        aaron afflalo?
        amir johnson? 

        • Dec 10, 201211:53 pm
          by tarsier

          Reply

          Arron Afflalo and Amir Johnson are arguably pre-rebuild. Depending on whether you count the AI year as rebuild yet or just a lost year for an experiment that could have immediate value or could allow for rebuilding.

          Either way, both got real chances as Pistons. Afflalo was getting nearly 20 mpg in a crowded backcourt (which is a ton for a 27th pick in his second season putting up 5 ppg and 2 rpg with a PER below 10). Amir often seemed to deserve a larger role. But whenever he got one, he picked up fouls too quickly. In his 15 mpg, he was getting 3 PFs. And he had some nice raw talent, but was seriously lacking BB IQ.

          Both were traded away for too little. But they were not obscenely underused in Detroit. 

          • Dec 11, 201212:36 am
            by frankie d

            sorry, but that is laughable.
            you can characterize their tenure in any fashion you want.
            the fact is that they are both players who have proven to be quality nba players, starters and solid rotation players, and they were literally given away for a price that has ended up being zero.
            nothing.  nada.
            the team literally has no assets to show for the trading of two quality nba players.
            at the time, when some of us fans complained about the lunacy of the series of moves that led to their departure, we were told to shut up and simply accept that acquiring CV and BG and chris wilcox was so important that a couple of scrubs like those 2 was well worth it.
            pre-rebuild?
            WTF does that mean?
            they were traded after the AI debacle, not before, and were ostensibly moved to make the numbers work for the signing of several free agents.
            under the circumstances, to say that those players, especially considering the plight of the current pistons’ squad, were given a fair shake is just laughable.
            a perversion of any interpretation of the concept of a “fair shake”. 

          • Dec 11, 20128:47 am
            by tarsier

            The Pistons undoubtedly gave up on them too soon and gave them away for far too little. I would not question that.i would advocate that.

            But their roles and opportunities during their Detroit tenure were not particularly mismanaged. That was what the discussion is about.

            It’s easy to come along and say that I’m wrong if you decide to make up that I am talking about a completely separate issue from the one that is being discussed because then you get to make up what sort of side I am taking on that issue. But I wasn’t talking about that. And if I were, I wouldn’t have said what you somehow inferred from totally unrelated statements.

            “they were traded after the AI debacle”

            As I stated incredibly clearly, it is disputable whether the rebuild started with the AI trade or the following summer with BG, CV, etc.

            Finally, tell me, how did they not get a fair shake in their Detroit tenure? Not whether their trades were fair to the Pistons (nobody thinks that), but when were they deprived of opportunities they’d earned?

          • Dec 11, 20121:43 pm
            by frankie d

            i hate to get persnickety on you, but if i am going to address your point, i have no other choice.
            the definition of “pre-”
            pref.
            1.
            a. Earlier; before; prior to.
            b. Preparatory; preliminary.
            c. In advance.

            2. Anterior; in front of.

             
            even conceding that the rebuild happened began after the year of AI, with BG and CV, the 2 trades happened concurrent with, at the time of,  the rebuild, not before the rebuild.  in fact, the two trades were supposedly and specifically done in order to facilitate the rebuild process.  their trades were part of the rebuild process.
            so while it is an extremely fine point, it is extremely important.
            (that fact makes their trade even more incredibly stupid.  joe d traded two young, cheap, productive players he had invested draft choices in, in order to spend almost $100 million on two older replacement players who had huge question marks  associated with their careers. 
            what would have made sense was to simply keep the cheaper, younger players, save your money and wait for a more opportune time to spend that money that was apparently burning a hole in joe d’s pocket.  he was using a business model from a decade prior, seemingly unaware of coming changes in the league’s salary, contractual and financial structure.)
            amir’s career in detroit went off the deep end once AI joined the team.  he’d been starting and playing well at the beginning of the season – when the team was 4-0 – but when AI joined  the team, he faltered and was out of the starting unit and from that point on his minutes were inconsistent, despite relatively solid production.  he just didn’t fit with AI; he seemed to get in his way offensively.  and then he was given away in order to clear cap space.
            AA never got the chance his numbers merited.  while his PER was not good – not quite sure what brings it down – his other advanced numbers were solid for a second year player.  in fact, his shooting numbers were the best of any backcourt player on the roster.   i argued in lots of pistons forums, right after the AI season, before his trade, that the pistons needed to find a way to get him into the starting unit.  to this fan, it was pretty clear that the team needed the skills – shooting, solid perimeter D – that he brought to the court.  to trade a first round draft choice who has shown promise – and his potential was fairly obvious at that point, i would argue – in order to bring in an older, more expensive, more limited player, BG, was not a fair or smart thing to do.  his playing time and rotation spot was first sacrificed for AI and then for BG.
            i only bring up the lack of value received for AA because of this….
            if they had traded him and gotten value in return – a draft choice, a player – then you could argue that he got a fair shot, and the team simply used him as an asset to improve the team.
            but the trade that sent him to denver has to rank as one of the worst trades in the last decade. (they essentially sent 2 late first round choices to denver for a late second round choice who turned into a player who is no longer with the team.  and i know that sharpe was an early second round choice, but joe d actually traded about 2-3 spaces down in order to get out of the first round and pick sharpe.)
            over the last few year only a few young guys like stuckey and monroe and knight have gotten what i would call fair shakes from the team.  lots of other young players – from amir and delfino and AA and daye and macklin and JJ and now drummond are getting shafted by the team.  that refusal to give young players a fair shake and an honest shot at jobs is a huge reason the team has been treading water for so long.

          • Dec 11, 201211:15 pm
            by tarsier

            I agree with much of what you said (including that the Afflalo and Amir trades were part of the rebuild). But again, I was never once talking about he trades (which were terrible). I was talking about how much opportunity they got to play while in Detroit. So everything about how stupid those trades were is not a point in this argument. I agree. But it’s not what I’m talking about. You keep changing the topic and arguing against something I never said.

            You can argue that Afflalo looked solid. And he did. But he was getting nearly 20 mpg. And he was a second year player from near the end of the first round. Stuckey, Rip, and AI had all earned a lot more minutes than him (AI wasn’t great that season but when you have a future HOF who was easily playing all-star caliber ball the previous season, you give him the full year to see if he can get his mojo back). In that context, getting over 15 mpg is nothing to complain about.

            Amir is the guy that you could argue deserved more PT. But as I pointed out, whenever he got it, he just picked up fouls way too fast.

            Again, all I said was that most of the young prospects who have flashed potential in Detroit since the rebuild got their opportunities. The Pistons may not have taken advantage of their opportunities to hang onto them, but they did play the men–except Macklin (you could argue Summers, but he never really showed anything in his scant opportunities).

  • Dec 10, 20129:55 pm
    by Ozzie-Moto

    Reply

    Coach Frank ……  Grade F  and he got that based on a curve ….  JD picked 3 stiff coaches in a row  (after the big names )  Horrible   WAKE UP Detroit sports writers  grow a pair,  Call it as it is. Team is being mismanaged 

    • Dec 10, 201210:00 pm
      by tarsier

      Reply

      there should be a PP poll on who has been the most incompetent member of the Pistons organization during the rebuild:
      Kuester, Curry, Frank, Dumars, or Daye 

    • Dec 10, 201210:02 pm
      by Patrick Hayes

      Reply

      The coach is bad. Everyone understands this. But fans acting like this team loses games solely because of the coach is beyond annoying and beyond ignorant. Is it Frank’s fault Maxiell had an awful shooting game? Is it his fault that Stuckey, Prince and Villanueva had terrible turnovers in the final two minutes when Detroit was still in it? Was it his fault that Spencer Hawes was diving all over the floor for loose balls, but the Pistons didn’t really see fit to match that effort?

      I’ll respond to your ‘grow a pair’ ignorance by simply telling you to watch the game with a more objective eye. Realize that Frank shares a large portion of the blame for losses, but to ignore significant poor decisions of players because you don’t like the coach is just simple-minded, shoddy analysis.

      • Dec 10, 201210:07 pm
        by tarsier

        Reply

        It’s not all on Frank. But his lineup decisions are baffling. We fans recognize that the players on the team are not that talented. And it’s understood that during the regular season, not a lot of moves get made, so we just have to accept that. The Pistons can’t just go pick up some stud to make the team better. But they can play sensible rotations. So of course that’s the part we gripe about. Because it is the part that seems fixable in the short term. How Maxiell missing his jumpers could be fixed is beyond me.

        • Dec 10, 201210:14 pm
          by Patrick Hayes

          Reply

          Honest question: what’s a sensible rotation to you? I mean, to me, the only move I think is absolutely baffling is not playing Drummond 25-30 minutes per game, including significant minutes with Monroe.

          I’d like to see more of English. I hate that Villanueva is playing more than Jerebko, and I’d like to see Middleton and Kravstov get a bit of time. But is there any guarantee that English in an expanded role would be good? And Jerebko was pretty bad for a significant stretch before he got benched. Kravstov and Middleton don’t seem ready to contribute. Yes, I want to see those guys play, but I don’t think them playing would make the Pistons a better team right now. 

          • Dec 10, 201210:25 pm
            by tarsier

            Yes, the Drummond thing. Playing CV is also rather inexplicable. He has been surprisingly helpful on offense but just as bad on defense. And playing Maggette at all makes no sense. So there are three big things.

            The other is when he puts players in and takes players out seems to make no sense. It’s like he is following a pre-written script rather than making decisions based on what is happening. And, tying in to that, he doesn’t seem to understand the concept of adjustments.

            I mean, for a while, I was not on the full negativity about Frank bandwagon. I thought it was just overly critical people noticing mistakes in a small sample size. But he keeps on doing things that appear to have no rhyme or reason. Now, I’m not going to put who takes how many shots on him. That is mostly just how the game flow plays out. But seriously, he really does look like he decided before the game started who would go in when and then he just stuck with it.

          • Dec 10, 201210:26 pm
            by tarsier

            Sorry, got a bit repetitive there.

          • Dec 10, 201211:17 pm
            by I HATE FRANK

            @tarsier …..You are correct, we have two interchangeable players in our starting line up… Maxiell and Singler

            Sometimes it would be nice, to bring them off the bench in the 2nd half…especially if Stuckey or Drummond looks better in the first half….

            Or maybe playing English, or maybe bring jonas back…

            I was wrong about Prince he has played very good basketball, but no other vet has made a real impact where you can say…they deserve PT over an of the younger players….

             

          • Dec 11, 20127:13 am
            by Vic

            10 minutes of Drummond in the 4th quarter would have won the game, even if he didn’t get any rebounds or points. Just the simple move to stop Holiday from having a holiday at the rim would have made the difference. But Frank is too busy trying to teach the process and make points insteaif of making simple decisions that win games. Everybody doesn’t have to have a great game to win. You just have to manage and motivate your players to do the right things at the right time.

          • Dec 11, 20128:54 am
            by tarsier

            No, Vic, an unproductive Drummond would not have won the game. He would have been an offensive liability and minor defensive upgrade. Could 10 minutes of Drummond in the 4th quarter have swung the game? Possibly, but only if he was productive. And you have no possible way of knowing whether he would be.

            Look at it this way. Imagine that when the Mavs won their title in 2011, Butler had been healthy. An imagine he played reasonably well and they won a coupe close games. People would say that there is no way they would have won without Butler (a la James Posey). But they wouldn’t know that. As it turns out, they did win without him (and there is a decent chance the Cs would have won in 2008 without Posey).

            There are so many unpredicatable factors in the outcome of a basketball game that you can very rarely say (______ would be the difference in the outcome if ______ were changed to _____). When you do so, you just set yourself up to look like an ignoramus.

          • Dec 11, 20129:07 am
            by Vic

            Blocked shots are exactly the production that was needed in that 4th quarter when Holiday was taking over the game. Even with no rebounds he had 2 blocks in the 14 measly minutes he played.  He coukld have clogged up the paint better than CV and made their offense work harder to score.

            Blocked shots and protecting the paint = production unless your name is Lawrence Frank and you’d rather measure effort and energy

          • Dec 11, 20129:20 am
            by Patrick Hayes

            @Vic:

            “Just the simple move to stop Holiday from having a holiday at the rim would have made the difference.”

            Three of the five shots Holiday made in the fourth were jumpers, so Drummond, even if he suddenly became more engaged and active than he’d been earlier in the game, wouldn’t have had any impact on whether or not Holiday made those three shots in the fourth. 

          • Dec 11, 20122:42 pm
            by vic

            so he didn’t hit any layups? I know I saw at least one.
            taking away the layup threat helps cut the spacing needed for iso jumpshots too. It also helps the perimeter defender to play up closer and be a little more aggressive.

            what I’m saying is not too much of a stretch, its just basketball, and we’ve seen it all season. 

      • Dec 10, 201210:35 pm
        by tarsier

        Reply

        I mean, do you not watch these games and find yourself thinking. “I could coach better”? I know I do, even if I am almost certainly wrong about that. I never watch the players and think to myself, “I could play better.”

        That’s probably where at least some of the frustration comes from.

        I’m not convinced that anyone could coach this team into the playoffs (although it would be real interesting to see if Popovich could–not that it’s fair to Frank to compare him to Gregg). So there are few games where I leave thinking, “if only the Pistons had a good coach, this would have been a W.” I don’t blame Frank for the loss. I blame him for seemingly incomprehensibly bad decisions.

        • Dec 10, 201210:44 pm
          by Patrick Hayes

          Reply

          “I mean, do you not watch these games and find yourself thinking. “I could coach better”?”

          Nope. That’s almost as crazy as thinking you could play better than the players. Except Austin Daye. You could probably play better than him.

          I agree that it’s frustrating. Frank is a mediocre coach who would probably be fine with a veteran team but bad with a young team, like a lot of coaches. But the reason I’m not quite as hard on him — and don’t get me wrong, I do think he sucks — is I think he’s carrying out what the organization wants. We have years of evidence that suggests this is how Joe Dumars thinks you should develop young players. We have years of evidence that Joe Dumars is sympathetic to veteran players and easily casts away coaches. Knowing that background, I have some understanding of why he probably does the things that he does. This is an organizational thing, not a Frank thing. That doesn’t take Frank off the hook at all, but I also think he’s just doing the job how his boss wants the job to be done. 

          • Dec 10, 201210:52 pm
            by tarsier

            “Nope. That’s almost as crazy as thinking you could play better than the players.”

            Almost as crazy it may be. But what goes through my head is sometimes quite crazy. I usually try to filter out most of the crazy before it comes out of mouth (or my fingers in this case, I guess). So I recognize I couldn’t coach better. It just feels that way. 

          • Dec 11, 20121:22 am
            by Haan

            Yes, Frank’s doing the organization’s bidding, up to a point. When the owner foresees playoffs and the GM/ VP concurs, the coach aims to win now.  But the drafting of Drummond (with some luck) and the signing of Kravtsov indicate to me Dumars providing resources to address the offensive boards problem.  Also, he must foresee the end of the Maxiell and Villanuena era (linked to the offensive boards problem) and has worked to provide a bridge to a better tomorrow.  Does that mean that he’s pressuring for Drummond and Kravtsov to replace CV and Maxiell in the rotation?  Probably not, but as a member of the Bad Boys, he’s familiar with situational subbing in a platoon of big guys.  When the Pistons are getting killed on the offensive boards, can not giving Kravtsov a minute of burn really be seen as implementing his vision, not just for the future, but also the present?  And is mechanical subbing and non-responsiveness to game situations really the way to maximize chances of winning, even setting aside consideration of the wisdom of allotting so much time to vets presumably on their way out (CV, Maxiell, Maggette)?  Incidentally, what’s the source of knowledge for Kravtsov not being ready to contribute?

      • Dec 10, 201211:41 pm
        by PK SMID

        Reply

        Patrick, I think you and a lot of Pistons fans agree on Frank, I just think some of us may not express it that well…I don’t think Frank is a total moron, and I don’t think I could do a better job than he does, what I do think is that it is very frustrating watching this team lose while also playing mediocre veterans over younger players. I do not think minutes should be given away, and I don’t think no veterans should play, but it is terrible watching this team bumble its way to boring losses while CV and Maggette get legitimate burn.
        Based on everyone’s account, English is a hard worker and a coach’s dream, what could possibly be the explanation for playing Maggette in front of him? Villanueva has played much better this year than he did last year, but he is still a mediocre veteran who just fundamentally cannot play defense, his role should be as late game 3 point specialist, or as a sub if someone is having a particularly bad/lethargic night, NOT as a regular rotation guy. The organization and the Vinces have consistently made the Drummond argument a ‘Dre vs. Maxiell thing, but the much simpler explanation is just to shorten the bench. Let CV (or better yet Jerebko) play 8 minutes a night or something, and Maxiell and GMO can play 30-35 and Drummond can play 20-25, what is the drawback here? It seems to me we have 3 good big men, but Frank is stubbornly clinging to a 4-man rotation up front.
        Finally, I commend you guys on being able to write about the Pistons every night, I can’t even imagine. This team seems to have so many different identities, and a different flaw or strength each night, it is impressive you manage to have something coherent to say about them every day.

        • Dec 11, 20129:24 am
          by Patrick Hayes

          Reply

          “what I do think is that it is very frustrating watching this team lose while also playing mediocre veterans over younger players.”

          I absolutely, 100 percent agree with this. But why I don’t blame Frank much for it is because there is ample evidence that it is an organizational philosophy, not necessarily a Frank philosophy.

          Kuester buried young players at the expense of veterans. Curry did it with Afflalo and Amir Johnson. Saunders did it with Maxiell, Amir and Delfino. Brown did it with Delfino and Darko. I just really think there is some weird philosophy starting with Dumars that makes this organization favor veterans. That’s fine if those veterans are taking you deep in the playoffs. But as we’ve seen the last several years, it looks rather ridiculous if you’re losing games while also playing veterans.

      • Dec 11, 20121:14 pm
        by rick

        Reply

        Cmon now Patrick, do you really believe Detroit is devoid of talent like that so much in fact that they should not have a better record? You cant tell me with a better coach maybe a Doug Collins , Greg Popovich, Rivers, or even Thibideux(spelling sucks) that this team would not be better. Its about identifying yoru strengths and weaknesses and nota lowing other teams to expose you.  I mean if he could get in Monroes face and tell him about his tissue paper defense maybe Id have faith in him but since that is not who he is I cannnot take him serious as a coach. 

        I dont think fans are as naive or stupid as you percieve its just a lack of common sense by a man who probably is on his last leg as a head coach. I really believe that Detroit is better than 7-16 and for the record after the first 48 games the past two seasons his record is a whopping 11-47 b4 tonites game. Do you really think the team is going “balls out” for coach? His resume says all I need to know and he has to go. If this was team ran by a seasoned coach and they couldnt get it done then I might buy into the talent thing,but last time I checked the NBA is not some garbage league where guy’s can’t play.

         I just think it is him not defining roles and allowing guys to ease into them. Think about it for a second and say to yourself as a player “who the hell is Frank and do I listen to a coach who lost 16 in a row?” Can he really estabish an order when he has not been that successful himself? Maybe I am wrong but nothing about Frank screams success. Oh well, right? Everyone will have varying opinions on this one and I dont think people are wrong for it.

          

        • Dec 11, 20121:39 pm
          by Patrick Hayes

          Reply

          “Cmon now Patrick, do you really believe Detroit is devoid of talent like that so much in fact that they should not have a better record? ”

          I think I predicted they’d win 34 or 36 games before the season started. Right now, they’re on pace to win 25. So yeah, I think they should be a bit better than they are right now. But I don’t think they’re a playoff team and I don’t think any coach, even one that could coax maximum effort out of this roster, would finish .500 with this team. They just aren’t as talented as a lot of Pistons fans for some reason thought they were before the season started.

          “I dont think fans are as naive or stupid as you percieve its just a lack of common sense by a man who probably is on his last leg as a head coach”

          I never said fans are naive or stupid, as a whole. I do think Pistons fans are pinning an inordinate amount of blame on the coach though. Yeah, he’s a bad coach. But this is a bad roster, too, and plenty of players on it have underachieved. That’s not all Frank’s fault.

          Also, I don’t believe he’s on his ‘last leg’ as a head coach. I’d be shocked if he’s not the coach to start next season. Not letting him come back for another season would be admitting another huge failure for Dumars, and I just can’t see Dumars doing that, unless Gores gets rid of both of them.

          “Do you really think the team is going “balls out” for coach?”

          Yeah, for the most part. I think Knight plays hard, I think Monroe plays hard, I think Maxiell and Prince play reasonably hard, I think Singler plays hard, I think Jerebko plays hard (even though he was playing lousy), I think English plays hard. I can’t point to one person on the roster — with the exception of the usual suspects, Daye and Villanueva — and say, “man, that player is definitely not giving his best effort.” Who do you think is legitimately not trying hard? They’re a mistake-prone team being led by two players — Monroe and Knight — who are still clumsily finding their way as the centerpieces of a team’s offense. It’s not really an effort thing, they are just a bad team.

          “last time I checked the NBA is not some garbage league where guy’s can’t play.”

          Yeah, the guys who play the worst in the NBA are certainly a lot better than you and I. But the bad players in the league are significantly worse than the good players in the league. It’s not as if every player in the NBA has pretty comparable talent. There is a wide gulf between good and bad. The Pistons have a lot of limited or declining veterans and they have a lot of untested young players. Both players in those groups tend to be bad NBA players, hence the Pistons are a bad NBA team. Once Knight and Drummond take another step forward from inconsistent, mistake-prone young players and join Monroe as consistent, reliable NBA players, the Pistons will be a better team. They haven’t got there yet. It takes time.

          “I just think it is him not defining roles and allowing guys to ease into them.”

          Honestly, I think his problem has been the exact opposite. His roles are too defined, his rotation is too rigid and he does’t adjust for things like Drummond being better than anticipated or Stuckey being worse at shooting guard than expected or Maggette giving next to  nothing as backup SF. He’s taking over for a coach who the players didn’t trust because Kuester notoriously changed the rotation and changed guys roles on what seemed like a game to game basis. Players hated that, they didn’t respect the coach as a result and it made a toxic environment. So I get why Frank is rigid. I don’t agree with it, but I get it. He wants guys to know what their role is, to be comfortable in it and to have confidence that one bad game alone won’t get you buried on the bench, as it often did with Kuester. I get it. It just hasn’t worked, because Frank has entrusted guys in certain roles and they’ve either performed too poorly to justify keeping them (Maggette, for example, and Bynum until he was finally removed) or they’ve played to well to justify keeping them in such a small role (Drummond). Kuester was too flexible, Frank isn’t flexible enough.

          “Think about it for a second and say to yourself as a player “who the hell is Frank and do I listen to a coach who lost 16 in a row?””

          Jason Kidd, Richard Jefferson, Vince Carter are all pretty big egoed veterans and they listened to him and played well for him. Kevin Garnett, Paul Pierce, Rondo and Ray Allen respected him and listened to him as an assistant in Boston, and those guys are about as big-egoed as it gets.

          Seriously, any player on the current Pistons roster who would say “who the hell is this guy and why should I listen to him?” about any coach is a player I don’t want on the roster. This team has proven nothing at the NBA level. Frank has coached a team into the second round of the playoffs a couple of times. That’s more than any Pistons player, with the exception of Prince and Maxiell if you want to count him, has ever accomplished.

          • Dec 11, 20124:18 pm
            by rick

            Lol Patrick I knew you would come hard. I think we feel the same way just differently philosophically.

          • Dec 11, 20124:25 pm
            by rick

            I guess my frustration comes from the fact that in several of their losses they had huge leads and I feel that Frank needed to make the necessary adjustments when teams started to make runs. It’s not like we have seen him call and out bounds play that stops a run. The fact that he gives them the autonomy to do whatever is troubling to me moreso than anything. Cause like you said what has any other Piston besides the ones you mentioned done to deserve that freedom? 

             Detroit neesd an identity and I just don’t see them having one under their current coach. I know we dont have the best lineup but neither did I feel that way when we had Chauncey,Rip,Ben, and Tay to start our run. None on them with the exceptin of Ben was a great defender,but Carlisle came in and made them play defense and they became the Pistons we know today. Thats my point when I talk about Frank. I dont even think the refs or other coaches take him seriously but then again I am not that fly on the wall that hears any of this.

          • Dec 11, 20124:39 pm
            by Patrick Hayes

            I don’t disagree with you on Frank being a poor coach and poor fit for this team. I don’t think he’s dumb or a terrible coach overall, just a mediocre one, like most coaches in the league. He’s certainly not among the top guys, but there are also guys who are worse than he is.

            But I pin most of the blame for this performance at the top of the organization. It’s a poorly assembled roster, the team hasn’t committed full to bottoming out enough to truly rebuild and, considering what Dumars did with money in free agency the last time he had it, I’m leery about what might happen this offseason.

  • Dec 10, 201210:07 pm
    by Curtis

    Reply

    Hey Patrick, would it be possible to get an average grade (Based on your per game grades) on all individuals up to this point in the season? 

    I think it would be interesting to see who the top grades are, and how they line up with minutes played per game, and other such things.

    I also imagine Tayshaun would probably have one of, if not the highest average on the team so far.  Very consistant and good play from him this year, and your grades always seem to reflect that.

    • Dec 10, 201210:10 pm
      by Patrick Hayes

      Reply

      Yeah, we want to do it, just haven’t had time to compile yet. Hopefully in the next couple weeks sometime.

      • Dec 10, 201211:58 pm
        by MNM

        Reply

        Wait till the All-Star break, see who’s still on the team (God, I hope they make trades for picks), then do a mid-season grade for those remaining players.

  • Dec 10, 201210:15 pm
    by Nick

    Reply

    Detroit need to take the best player available in the draft next yr. Hopefully Muhammad and make a strong push for OJ Mayo this offseason. Mayo will be the prize of this offseason.

  • Dec 10, 201210:17 pm
    by Mel

    Reply

    I agree Frank deserves a Big Fat D as in Big Fat Dummy ( As Fred Sandford would say). This clown is lost when it comes to making substitutions. The reason Drummond played so passive is that the coach puts him in the game at the 40 second mark in one quarter and 35 mark in another. I know he was using him for defensive purposes, but then he puts him in the game when the momentum is going in the direction of the opposing team. So Drummond’s head is swimming, you could see it in his expressions. It’s not the first time Frank has done that either, it’s just Drummond is able to make things happen most of the time. That’s why Daye struggles in Franks regime. Even though Kuester sucked he at least knew when to play certain players ( remember I said certain players.) Also we’re like the BAD LUCK team of the league now, seems like when ever we play a team or player that’s struggling offensively they get HOT when they play us.  OH Yeah, Monroe had a OK game to me, he plays sometimes like he’s dreaming about a bag of weed or something when he starts games. He makes to many turnovers to be such a good passing guard, and he’s playing too soft right now with getting rebounds and lets not talk about boxing players out. What is that!!  

    • Dec 10, 201210:40 pm
      by Patrick Hayes

      Reply

      “I know he was using him for defensive purposes, but then he puts him in the game when the momentum is going in the direction of the opposing team.”

      Welcome to being a bench player. Seriously, how many games are the Pistons starters losing early? How many games do they lose momentum early? If Frank only brought Drummond in when the momentum was in their favor, he’d play even less than he does now.

      Drummond’s an energetic player (typically … tonight not so much), so why wouldn’t you go to him when your starters are lacking energy?

  • Dec 10, 201210:20 pm
    by Edgar

    Reply

    I have to disagree about not faulting Frank for sitting Drummond. I think that Drummond should be guaranteed at least 20 minutes a game and this should be communicated to him by the coaching staff. This way, if Drummond’s having a bad game like he was tonight, he and Frank know that they both have X amount of minutes left to improve his play. All players have bad nights or low energy nights, especially young players. It’s incumbent upon Frank to teach Drummond how to work his way through a bad night and find a way to be productive. He’s not going to learn that playing just 13 minutes or watching from the bench. Frank gets an F for his Drummond-development tonight.

    • Dec 10, 201210:37 pm
      by Patrick Hayes

      Reply

      “I have to disagree about not faulting Frank for sitting Drummond.”

      I didn’t say I don’t fault him. I said I don’t fault him much. As a fan, I want Drummond to play a guaranteed 25 minutes per game. Knowing and talking to many coaches at different levels over the years, I don’t know of any who would play a guy giving questionable effort. It’s not an unreasonable decision to sit him from a coaching perspective. Plenty of coaches, good ones and bad ones, teach lessons to young players that way.

  • Dec 10, 201210:21 pm
    by Mark

    Reply

    CV finishing the game was pathetic for one. Second, Frank needs to start being proactive with Drummond and challenge him when he’s having a sluggish night. He could’ve put him out there at the end and said “Here, you played bad the 1st 14 min, but here’s a chance to atone yourself, go out there and show me something and help us get a win.

    This preset gameplan Frank is taking with Drummond has to go. You can’t just go in games planning to play him exactly X amount of minutes, and only give him more if he’s playing extraordinary. Start pushing some damn buttons, Frank! wtf are you doing over there on the sideline all game?

    • Dec 10, 201210:24 pm
      by Mark

      Reply

      Frank has the motivational skills of Matt Foley, the guy who lived in a van down by the river. lol

    • Dec 10, 201210:31 pm
      by Edgar

      Reply

      Totally agree. I’d love to know to what extent Frank and/or coaches in general actually teach during a game. Playing effectively when you’re tired or when your shot’s off or when you’re in foul trouble are all skills, it seems to me. I wonder if Frank’s interested/capable of teaching those kinds of skills or if he just says, “Eff this, you’re not helping me win this game so you’re dead to me.” Kind of seems like the latter.

      • Dec 10, 201210:35 pm
        by Patrick Hayes

        Reply

        Seriously? You expect that a coach at the professional level should be talking to NBA players about how to play hard when they’re tired?

        • Dec 10, 201210:43 pm
          by Edgar

          Reply

          No, not how to play hard. How to play effectively. The kinds of tricks that old/unathletic/less talented players use to be effective that super-athletic guys aren’t used to relying on.

    • Dec 10, 201210:32 pm
      by Patrick Hayes

      Reply

      “CV finishing the game was pathetic for one.”

      CV ever playing is pathetic. But he also was rebounding, unlike Drummond. Not saying that justifies him playing, but still … Drummond getting 0 boards in 13 minutes is inexcusable. Please justify to me how that is OK.

      “Frank needs to start being proactive with Drummond and challenge him when he’s having a sluggish night.”

      What makes you think he didn’t? Drummond played eight relatively passive minutes in the first half. What makes you think nothing was said to him at halftime? Maybe they told him what he wasn’t doing and what they needed from him, then he want out in the second half for five minutes and was still passive.

      Maybe he was given that chance to atone himself and he just didn’t do it.

      The fact is, with Maxiell playing awful and Villanueva being Villanueva, Drummond had a fantastic opportunity to seize a larger role tonight and he simply didn’t do it.

      • Dec 10, 201210:39 pm
        by tarsier

        Reply

        Yeah, I’m not trying to lump myself in with this level of Frank hate. I don’t know if/how Frank was motivating or “pushing buttons” on Drummond. But I wouldn’t blame him for Andre’s poor play.

      • Dec 10, 201210:40 pm
        by Edgar

        Reply

        I think we all agree that Drummond had a terrible game and him getting no rebounds is indeed inexcusable. But, I don’t think it’s any more inexcusable or more detrimental than Maxiell missing so many shots. But, Maxiell’s earned the right to work through a bad night and I’d say Drummond has as well. Sounds like you disagree, but I don’t think 13 minutes is enough to do this.

        • Dec 10, 201210:49 pm
          by Patrick Hayes

          Reply

          Personally, I think he has. But I also understand that young players in general have shorter leashes in this league to play through mistakes. I don’t think that’s the wisest tendency a lot of coaches have, but I recognize that it’s conventional wisdom that a lot of coaches, not just Frank, support.

        • Dec 11, 201212:32 am
          by RalphHau

          Reply

          I agree that Drummond had a bad night, but he is still a pretty young man and the coach doesn’t seem to want to involve him in any plays.  I say throw the young man a bone once in a while, maybe he might feel as part of the team. 

      • Dec 10, 201210:42 pm
        by I HATE FRANK

        Reply

        I agree Drummond… just didnt have it going…

        • Dec 10, 201210:50 pm
          by I HATE FRANK

          Reply

          even if Drummond was rebounding, we know he can…and he also know he is our only rim protector…we also know they were lacking size at the 5, and each of their center had 4 fouls starting the 4th…not to play Drummond and Monroe…you are letting them off the hook

      • Dec 10, 201211:53 pm
        by Mark

        Reply

        Actions speak louder than words. Frank was going to give Drummond his usual 7 min in the 2nd half regardless. I’m talking about him going outside the norm for once and doing something tangible to motivate him, like giving him minutes late in a game that he wouldn’t normally get. Do something that might get him excited and maybe get him going. Franks a big talker, little doer. Whatever he said at halftime obviously didn’t get across to anyone, not just Drummond, giving up a 14-0 run to start the 3rd. So try a different tactic with him if talking to him didn’t get him going. Because had Drummond been able to get going, we probably win this game. 

        PHI’s Centers were all in foul trouble. Meaning it was a perfect opportunity to get Drummond the ball down low, where PHI couldn’t foul him or risk fouling out their only Centers. He would’ve been able to catch it inside and power dunk with little to no resistance. It was a good opportunity to play him late in a game and Frank didn’t capitalize. Instead went with CV while PHI scored at will on us. CV may have rebounded better, but Drummond would’ve no doubt been more help on defense. And we didn’t lose because of rebounding, we lost because we couldn’t get stops in crunch time, which is no surprise when you have CV out there.

        • Dec 11, 201212:15 am
          by tarsier

          Reply

          But playing him when he isn’t “going” is at least as likely to hurt the team’s chances in the game as help them. Could it motivate him? Sure. Could it tell him that it’s fine that he was playing less hard than usual? Sure. Could it just feel random? Probably. Regardless, we write the narrative after to fit the results. The results don’t follow the narratives we dream up.

        • Dec 11, 20127:21 am
          by Vic

          Reply

          Mark makes sense. Drummind would have helped win protecting the paint alone… Even if he let Moose get all the rebounds. But oops, they can’t play together, so Pistons lose

          • Dec 11, 20129:26 am
            by Patrick Hayes

            Monroe wasn’t really rebounding well last night either. Seven in 35 minutes is nothing to get excited about.

  • Dec 10, 201210:27 pm
    by ryan

    Reply

    We took another loss but I take something encouraging from this game. Looking at how well Evan Turner and Jrue Holiday (who we should have drafted instead of Austin Daye… fuc_____ no trying to stay positive.) have developed makes me feel like Brandon Knight can follow suit. Both of those guys had their struggles but are now playing quite well. Brandon Knight’s still in the struggling period but he’ll get there.

     

  • Dec 10, 201210:28 pm
    by Mel

    Reply

    Yeah I’ll say it is the Coaches fault. The reason the team falters at the end of games is because he doesn’t have designed plays for certain game time situations. That the reason players are making bone headed plays. We have enough talent to play most of the game up until the last few minutes then things fall apart. Frank coached better last year than he has this year. So when players make boneheaded plays during the end of games. I look at the coach first. Most good coaches practice design plays for the end of games or quarters when things are getting out of hand. It’s called execution. And I’ve seen young teams execute and less talented teams execute. Heck Doug Collins is doing it with Philly now.

    • Dec 10, 201210:33 pm
      by Patrick Hayes

      Reply

      “And I’ve seen young teams execute and less talented teams execute. Heck Doug Collins is doing it with Philly now”

      Are you saying Philly is less talented than Detroit? 

      • Dec 11, 201212:02 am
        by Mark

        Reply

        I’d say the talent level was even tonight. PHI w/o Bynum is no more talented than we are. So when talent is even you have to look at coaching as the difference. 

        • Dec 11, 201212:12 am
          by tarsier

          Reply

          For any given game, that is not the case because there is so much luck in a game. over the course of a season, sure (because the luck will even out). But how do you know Philly’s talent is about equal to Detroit’s? They are 6 games ahead of Detroit, which could be taken as evidence that they are more talented. You could also take it as evidence that their coach is better. Either way, the reasoning will look pretty circular.

      • Dec 11, 201212:43 am
        by domnick

        Reply

        without bynum yes… either way… even with andrew bynum… they can still be beaten… i think their lineup last season was better than this season

  • Dec 10, 201210:40 pm
    by I HATE FRANK

    Reply

    “”started slow, but deserves credit for turning things around. Jrue Holiday, as Dan pointed out in the preview, was a tough matchup for him (the second half proved as much), but Knight turning it over just twice was a positive.”"

    FOOLISHNESS!!!!

    Knight was 5-10 from the field…. he had 15 points in the 2nd half…. Knight started the game 0-3 and 0-2 in the first qrt… rest of the game 8-15 and 2-4 for 3′s (including the heave late in the game)

    So how did the 2nd half prove as much? ….

    HAHAHA!!!! you guys are trip!

     

    • Dec 10, 201210:44 pm
      by I HATE FRANK

      Reply

      “0-3 and 0-2 fpr ‘s in the first qrt”

      • Dec 10, 201210:48 pm
        by Patrick Hayes

        Reply

        That clarification doesn’t make your original comment any less asinine. I have no idea how you are arguing that I was unfair to Knight in my recap.

        • Dec 10, 201211:03 pm
          by I HATE FRANK

          Reply

          0-3 and 0-2 for 3′s …. in the first qrt ( an edit option would be great) but after the first qrt ..he went 8-15 for the rest of the game, and 2-4 for 3′s …. Dan was NOT RIGHT!

          • Dec 10, 201211:43 pm
            by tarsier

            Does it matter whether his misses were at the beginning or end? Knight played a good game overall, but let’s not dissect it quarter by quarter. Then you get meaningless numbers because of an incredibly small sample.

    • Dec 10, 201210:47 pm
      by Patrick Hayes

      Reply

      The only thing foolish is the thousands of comments you post saying the exact same thing.

      Seriously, I have no idea what you are objecting to in the portion of the recap you excerpted. I gave Knight credit for playing pretty well against a good defensive player. What’s wrong with that? I gave Knight credit for bouncing back from a slow shooting start. What’s wrong with that? I gave Knight credit for taking pretty good care of the ball. What’s wrong with that? He played pretty well. He also had a hand in getting torched defensively by Holiday, so that certainly factors into his overall performance, since Holiday took over the game, if you didn’t notice.

      You have no sense. 

      • Dec 10, 201210:57 pm
        by I HATE FRANK

        Reply

        Holiday took over the game YES!, when Knight was on the Bench, he drove pass stuckey like 3 times in a row…then he got switches with Drummond defending, and he got buckets…

        Im not saying he did put numbers up against Knight, but He wasn’t shutting Knight down either… Knight scored 15 points in the 2nd half and shot 5-10… …soo because Knight doesnt score 30 again? it proves that Dan was right?

        THATS FOOLISHNESS!!! 

        • Dec 10, 201210:59 pm
          by Patrick Hayes

          Reply

          Holy hell man, read the actual words written before you freak out.

          Dan wrote before the game that Holiday would be a tough defensive matchup. I wrote that that turned out to be correct — Holiday was tough for Knight and anyone else who tried to defend. I also gave Knight credit for playing well offensively against Holiday.

          What is the problem with any of that? 

          • Dec 10, 201211:05 pm
            by I HATE FRANK

            does not read that way… AT ALL!
             

    • Dec 11, 20129:30 am
      by Patrick Hayes

      Reply

      @I Hate Frank:

      You make reasonable points in some of your comments. But one thing that you consistently do that is just kind of cheating in an argument is you basically say, “Well … if you eliminate this and this, then this player had a great game.”

      Well sure. Knight shot 50 percent for the game. If I ignore the first half, then Knight had a good shooting game.

      To Knight’s credit, he didn’t let a few misses at the beginning sink his performance and he got himself going. But I also can’t ignore the first part of the game just because he got better later.

      It’s the same thing several people argue with Drummond. “Well, if you ignore the two or three times a game when he gets absolutely lost defensively, then he looks like the best rookie in the league.” You have to evaluate the whole picture.

      • Dec 11, 20122:34 pm
        by I HATE FRANK

        Reply

        YES SPENCER HAWES SIZE 16 happened to KNIGHT!

        Anyway, I did not disagree with your grade of Knight, but that your piggy backing on the thought that Jrue Holiday slowed Knight down when if you watch the game, clearly it didnt happen….Knight scored 8 more points than his season average….

        and about me, yeah I might do it from time to time…Especially if im trying to get a point across

        But Same thing for Dan, saying if you take away the 3 pointers and if you take away the uncontested lay-up… Knight would not have scored 30 points…

        WE ALL USE THE “WHAT IF”

         

        • Dec 11, 20122:41 pm
          by Patrick Hayes

          Reply

          Holiday didn’t really slow him down much, but don’t you think Holiday made those points harder for Knight to get than the stiffs he was playing vs. Cleveland? And the fact that he had to defend Holiday also made this a much harder game for him.

          • Dec 11, 20123:34 pm
            by I HATE FRANK

            Really quick about me before I answer ” I use to be a serious homer, if they put on the pistons red,white,blue and yes even the teal I only saw potential, how that has changed extremely over the years…. I said that because this is going to sound like a homer answer

            Did Holiday play better defense than Pargo YES, did he press Knight more YES…(So yes I get your point)

            However, but he didn’t force knight into bad shots or turnovers … Only difference between this game and cavs game is that Knight missed his open 3′s early…. ( I know another what if)

            Last note: this is the homer comment, I do not believe that many PG’s(maybe a handful) that can really stop an aggressive Knight from scoring …. And if he ever gets that mid-rage game to atleast 40% … He is going to be a nightmare to defend….

  • Dec 10, 201210:43 pm
    by Mel

    Reply

    I’ll put it this way, they’re not that much more talented than we are. We have more veterans also. We blew Philly out the last game we played them and could of blew them out this game if we had Doug Collins coaching. Philly has lost Iggy and Brand this year, we beat them last year also. So not including Bynum I’ll say we’re just as talented as Philly. Let Engish and Jonas play. That’s offense and defense not even used.  Philly are playing rookies I’ve never heard of and they’re contributing. 
     

  • Dec 10, 201210:47 pm
    by Mel

    Reply

    Oh yeah, Lou Williams too!

  • Dec 10, 201211:09 pm
    by I HATE FRANK

    Reply

    I think the best thing about the Piston games as a fan is this blog!

    May not agree wit you guys all the time, but thanks for what you do… 

  • Dec 10, 201211:36 pm
    by Ryan Kelly

    Reply

    Would love to see Kim english.  At least he makes shots at a nice fg%.   Really could use that with as many low percentage bums we have in this team.   Seriously has any player in recent memory looked worse taking shots than stuckey?   I mean ‘supposed’ offensive players not guys like Ben Wallace.   Stuckey out of control style just looks amateur.   Still can’t believe how many times he misses the entire rim on some of those drives.   Anyway.  Gimme Kim English. 

  • Dec 10, 201211:42 pm
    by jacob

    Reply

    This is starting to get kind of sad. When is enough going to be enough? Joe D needs to do a lot of work or lose his job.

  • Dec 10, 201211:51 pm
    by Jay

    Reply

    WHY ISN’T JEREBKO BACKING UP PRINCE?!?! Magette has been pretty useless. Just as Jerebko lost his position to Charlie for lack of production, I think it’s time Corey loses his. 

    • Dec 11, 201212:38 am
      by domnick

      Reply

      8 mins wont be a help for magette or jerebko.. i’d rather give it to middleton or english

  • Dec 11, 201212:09 am
    by Delray313

    Reply

    Dont blame Cv little buddies. This game was lost because stuckey wants to shoot 3s like he is ray allen and a huge turnover. Frank why the hell would you keep him in the game although singler wasnt great he would have played under more control than stuckey.

    • Dec 11, 201212:20 am
      by Mark

      Reply

      Agreed it wasnt CVs fault, it was Franks for putting him in there. Also, I blame Frank for not telling Stuckey to take to the basket when we are in the bonus. Stuckey shooting 3s when we are in the bonus is not acceptable, and Frank needs to either tell him that, or take him out if he insist on shooting 3s anyways. Stuckey was getting lit up by Holiday too on defense at the end. 

  • Dec 11, 201212:16 am
    by Mark

    Reply

    Singler is clearly worn out. With Stuckey thriving at backup PG though you cant put him back in at SG again. So I’d give English a chance. I think he could do the same that Singler was doing when he first got the start, because he’s fresh like Singler was at the time, and he’s a similar player. Right now Singler is worn out and needs a rest. Time to get a fresh player in there. 

    Let Singler take a reduced role for a few weeks as Tays backup at SF. Its time CM was replaced anyways and it would give Singler some time to recharge.

    This is what I’m talking about with Frank pushing buttons. Its a chance to get some inspired play happening at a position thats lagging right now. English will be all amped up to start and Frank instead chooses to stay with the guy who is dog tired. No creativity. No spontanaity. Just the same mudane routine everyday for Frank. No wonder his players rarely ever play inspired. They are probably bored out of their minds.

    • Dec 11, 20129:55 am
      by Crispus

      Reply

      I think the wounds are still too fresh from Kuester’s ‘Random Lineup GeneratorTM’. 

  • Dec 11, 201212:19 am
    by AtotheK

    Reply

    what is the grace period in which a team has to wait to trade a free agent they signed in the off-season? I think some of our expiring contracts/over achieving vets could net us either Jordan Hill or Jason Thompson. Either could be a great 4/5 off the bench and we’d still have $ to throw at Mayo and extend Moose. Wouldn’t give OJ a max deal, but would over pay him, considering  Ellis and Evans are next best options at the 2. Not sold on giving either of them big $

  • Dec 11, 201212:29 am
    by domnick

    Reply

    i saw the minutes of magette… 8 mins.. i’d rather give it to jj or middleton or english…

    8 mins is low for magette but it can provide better opportunities to young guys like middleton or english…

  • Dec 11, 201212:34 am
    by domnick

    Reply

    i think we are inconsistent in rebounding lately… we should’ve won this game… sixers are not a strong team.. even if bynum plays.. they are much beatable this time than last season with iggy with them…

    this is no-excuse… i am pissed off when we waste games like this!

  • Dec 11, 201212:52 am
    by frankie d

    Reply

    look, i dislike frank as a coach of any team i want to root for.
    his record speaks for itself. 
    it is what it is.
    bad.
    but there is no question that dumars is ultimately responsible for what is happening on the court.
    he’s put together a roster of very ill-fitting parts.
    and while it it slightly better than the rosters of the last couple of years, it is still a horrible mix of vets and young players, with too many players of the same type – combo guards, anyone? – and too few of the sort sorely needed – a real point guard, for instance?
    should frank be playing some young guys and sitting some of the vets?
    absolutely.
    but some guys, namely max and tay and CV shouldn’t even be on the roster to make things more complex for the coach.   nba coaches, for the most part, are sadly predictable and almost every nba coach – with a few notable and successful exceptions – would deal with the roster in the same way, given the players available.
    it is the same thing that has been going on for the last few years, though it is not quite as bad.
    and the culprit in the entire fiasco is my favorite bad boy joe d.
    i just wish it wasn’t so…. 

  • Dec 11, 201212:57 am
    by Jodi Jezz

    Reply

    Singler is garbage…How in the “H.E double hockey sticks” did Canon O’Brain receive the same grade as Stuckey…

    • Dec 11, 20129:40 am
      by Patrick Hayes

      Reply

      Stuckey made a third of his shots. He’s making 23 percent of his threes. He shot four in this game, for some unexplainable reason. He’s attempting nearly three threes per game despite that awful percentage. He’s attempting more threes per game than both Prince and Singler, who are far far better perimeter shooters than Stuckey.

      Singler didn’t take bad shots, he made 50 percent of the ones he took, he didn’t have an insanely bad turnover in the final two minutes like Stuckey did and he played good defense on Jason Richardson, who didn’t have a great shooting night.

      See that? When you use actual ‘data’ and actual ‘big boy words’ to make an argument, it’s easily to logically explain something.  

      • Dec 11, 201210:35 am
        by tarsier

        Reply

        Stuckey is the SG version of Josh Smith (although not quite as good). When he is playing defense right, it is obvious how incredibly good he can be on that end of the court. And all he has to do to be a good offensive player is stop shooting 3s already. But somehow, the heady parts of the game just never seem to lastingly click for him.

        • Dec 11, 201210:50 am
          by Patrick Hayes

          Reply

          “But somehow, the heady parts of the game just never seem to lastingly click for him.”

          Yep, exactly. 

        • Dec 11, 20122:10 pm
          by frankie d

          Reply

          this is where i fault the coach, to a large degree, for stuckey’s offensive problems this year.
          watching the games, especially the earlier games, it seemed clear that stuckey and knight were playing slightly different roles this year.
          last year, they seemed to handle point guard duties together.  most times, knight would handle the ball as the PG, but often, stuckey would take over those duties. 
          (stuckey is still a much better ballhandler.  imho, he is an elite ballhandler and he is especially effective because his size and strength makes it almost impossible for usually smaller, weaker PGs to disrupt his ability to bring the ball up court and advance it.)
          from the first moment of the first game this year, it appeared that the offense had been changed so that knight ran the point almost exclusively.  as a more traditional PG, while stuckey was put into a position where he was to simply catch and shoot, or spot up in the corner for the corner 3.
          in other words, he is taking so many 3′s because the team’s offense has been designed for him to take that shot.
          such changes have not worked out and seem nonsensical.
          putting both players into such roles, respectively, exposes their weaknesses and does not allow each player to do what each does best.
          anyone who’s watched stuckey since he’s been in the league – and he played the same way in college – knows he needs the ball in his hands so he can pound it, get his rhythm, and set his man up for his drive.   that is his game.  it is what he does.
          (and while knight has his problems playing the point, he has proven to be a good spot-up 3 point shooter, if he is allowed to play off the ball and set up for the long jumper.)
          to imagine that you could take stuckey and turn him into dell curry, spotting up and shooting 3′s makes so little sense, it is another one of those things that makes you wonder about frank.
          in his system, his guard performs that function, so stuckey has to perform that function, no matter that his skillset is not compatible with that approach.
          bad coaching 101. 

    • Dec 11, 201210:22 am
      by tarsier

      Reply

      What do you have against Singler? He’s not going to be a world beater. But he has produced better than the vast majority of rookies, his presence on the floor doesn’t hold back his teammates on either side of the court, and his skill set really fits a Pistons need. What more do you want from him?

      • Dec 11, 20126:56 pm
        by Jodi Jezz

        Reply

        I don’t know bro, I honestly don’t see a Knight/Singler back-court going anywhere…I feel as if he could give us the same production coming off the bench…Singler is slowly growing on me though…Singler needs to learn how to stop fouling so much and stay in-front of his opponents…

    • Dec 11, 201211:46 am
      by sebastian

      Reply

      Yo Jodi Jezz, you better watch it. Patrick gets really irate when Singler is called “Conan O’Brain,” but I’m with you, man, Singler is an 8th or 9th man. It is time to see what English can do at the starting SG position. I bet he (English) can run to the corner and hang around the 3-point arc, just as well as Conan and he (English) is a better defender at the position, also.
      L. Frank put English in the game!

      • Dec 11, 201212:16 pm
        by Patrick Hayes

        Reply

        Yeah, you’re totally right, as the person who wrote this post - http://www.pistonpowered.com/2012/08/is-kyle-singler-on-team-coco/ – I obviously get really irate by it.

        Singler is funny looking, I get it. But it’s really stupid to argue, in the face of stats that say otherwise, that he’s ‘garbage,’ as Jodi Jezz repeatedly writes.

        If Singler is an ’8th or 9th man,’ you do realize that that represents incredibly good value for a second round pick, the vast majority of which don’t pan out in the NBA, right?

        And you do realize that even if Singler is an 8th or 9th man on the roster of a good team, this is not, in fact, a good team, so he’s been more like one of their top four or five players this season, production-wise?

        I’m not making up his stats, and I’m not making up the stats of players like Stuckey, which have been awful even with his improved play of late. 

        • Dec 11, 20123:50 pm
          by I HATE FRANK

          Reply

          Can someone do an article on what happened to English?

          • Dec 11, 20124:20 pm
            by Crispus

            The player or the language? They have both suffered here…

        • Dec 11, 20127:10 pm
          by Jodi Jezz

          Reply

          Pat when I say he’s garbage I’m comparing him to other starting 2′s…I like Singler and I agree we got a valuable player in the 2nd round, I just don’t think he’s a starter or should receive starter minutes…You have to do more than “Shot the Ball” to be a starter…Stuckey is good, he just started the season bad…

  • Dec 11, 20121:02 am
    by domnick

    Reply

    stuckey,tay,maxiel,magette and cv are the vets playing…

    5 vets playing…. plus young guns monroe, knight, singler, drummond..

    not a bad fit… they still lack the cohesiveness — yes..

    i just think we need to put it together… rebounds.. defense… we had some improvement but the record is not good right now…

    that is being young…

  • Dec 11, 20125:01 am
    by HorsePower

    Reply

    From the expected playoff position to lottery position is not going to well sit with Gores. 
    Successful business people do not tolerate excuses. 
    The Pistons are rapidly approaching a breaking point where Gores hand will be forced to do something (at least at the end of the season).
    Frank and Joe, you better update your resumes guys. 

    • Dec 11, 20129:31 am
      by MIKEYDE248

      Reply

      You can’t really say that Joe has been doing a too bad of a job lately.  He drafted Monroe, Drummond, Knight and Singler.  Most of the bad decisions were when his hands were tied during the sale of the team.

      • Dec 11, 201210:05 am
        by Ozzie-Moto

        Reply

        You do know of course that you get the draft picks if you want them or not, and that there are like a zillion list of players and that the one’s we took are the one’s that were pretty much listed highest of the players left … so any of us here would have probably drafted the same players or players with about the same talent .. THATs not what people have complained about it is:  Letting go better players than he kept (AA comes to mind) not developing younger players, signing vets for to much money both ours and free agents, leaving us with basically untradeable players (an big trades that have worked out in the LAST 4 years?   and lastly hiring 3 ridiculous coaches in a row.  (Curry. Q, and Frank) 

        • Dec 11, 201210:25 am
          by tarsier

          Reply

          Give him credit at least for Singler. The other three, he deserves a modicum of credit for not screwing up, but just about everyone would have done the same thing (although, to be fair, I would have strongly considered Kawhi over Knight and I know a few others who would have been considering Faried–I still don’t know which would be the best choice of the three, though)

      • Dec 11, 201210:29 am
        by tarsier

        Reply

        Also, please stop over-using the “his hands were tied” excuse. We have no idea to what extent his hands were tied, but I’m sure he still could pull deals, he just needed to be more aware than usual of financial ramifications. And when the perfect offer came along (Butler/Prince swap), he whiffed. Finally, the bad decisions weren’t during the team’s sale. The only excuse that could be made about that time is that he couldn’t fix the mistakes that he made when he was free.

  • Dec 11, 20125:05 am
    by Gareth Masters

    Reply

    It was a horrible game for sure, the little niggly things that combined to lose us the match.

    I did enjoy our 6 point trip which iced their 17-0 run after half time… 

    • Dec 11, 20129:27 am
      by Mark

      Reply

      yeah, even though they didn’t win, that sequence was good for the young guys to finally break out of their funk and be able to overcome one of those Patented Piston lulls

  • Dec 11, 20129:50 am
    by Mack

    Reply

    I am aware FA signing is far away, but is there anyone the Pistons are eyeing? 

  • Dec 11, 201211:51 am
    by Scott Free

    Reply

    Id love to see a realistic speculation article about how the Pistons actually CAN drag themselves out of this 5 season rut.

    1. Everyone talks about the money we’re going to have in the off-season, when almost all of top free agents are big men (and Detroit will barely have enough left after a role-player signing to retain Monroe when his contract comes due)

    2. We also seem to lack the pieces to improve via trade.  Each of our players are more valuable to Detroit than they’d be anywhere else in the league (including Charlie Villanueva who’d be hard-pressed to make most squads).  

    3.  While I think Detroit has drafted well in the past couple seasons, (with another likely lottery pick on the way this year), we have a time bomb by trading Gordons draft pick which requires us to improve markedly in the offseason or risk losing a serious pick.

    It seems like theres a lot of hurdles (other than the increased competition in the league) to even become a middle-of-the-road team… and I fear that our success hinges solely on individual player improvement (which may never come).  Come on guys, give us a breath of hope here, its tough being a Pistons fan these days!   

    • Dec 11, 201212:51 pm
      by tarsier

      Reply

      “Everyone talks about the money we’re going to have in the off-season, when almost all of top free agents are big men”

      Another good big man would hardly be an awful thing to have. Every team needs at least three bigs in its rotation. And if it turns out that Monroe, Drummond, and FA signing are all good enough to be warranting significantly more than the 32 mpg that could be available to each in the frontcourt, a big man can always be traded for at least a comparably good perimeter player.

      “(and Detroit will barely have enough left after a role-player signing to retain Monroe when his contract comes due)”

      Detroit can go over the cap to resign Monroe (or any others of its own FAs). And there tends to be a decent margin between the cap and the tax line even if Gores is insistent on never paying tax.

      “Each of our players are more valuable to Detroit than they’d be anywhere else in the league.” 

      Max and Tay would definitely be more valuable on most other teams than they are on the Pistons. Other players are a bit more debatable.

      “(including Charlie Villanueva who’d be hard-pressed to make most squads)”

      Including CV?!?!?! Are you kidding? Especially CV is more like it. Every other player is probably a debatable matter (except the aforementioned Tay and Max who would definitely do more for a contender). Charlie has no value here, but none elsewhere either. And every other team in the league would have to have him on their cap figure next season. Detroit can amnesty him. That makes him significantly less bad for the Pistons to have than for anyone else.

      “While I think Detroit has drafted well in the past couple seasons, (with another likely lottery pick on the way this year), we have a time bomb by trading Gordons draft pick which requires us to improve markedly in the offseason or risk losing a serious pick.”

      I didn’t love the trade either. But the idea is that it become a mid to late first round pick. That’s a nice asset to have but hardly a huge deal. The question is basically whether the coming offseason will include moves to push Detroit up enough that the pick is not a major asset.

      • Dec 11, 20124:39 pm
        by rick

        Reply

        Not to be a dickhead but where have you read around the league circles that this is true? Last time I checked any player on the last year of his deal is a valuable commodity. Another thing I have been wanting to ask is hypothetically what if Charlie V had been playing balls out for Detroit the last couple of years , what could it have changed in terms of wins/losses? I think every organization and team has a scapegoat and Charlie V has taken the spot of Richard Hamilton, who by the way helped win a title. I guess my frustration is ” what if we were graded by everything we did differently on a daily basis at work how would we feel? I know he has not been the best but I am looking at the entire team over his tenure and nothing good has stood out that I would write home about. Yeah we got a great big boon this year in the draft but I get the feeling Monroe is gonna be our version of Al Jefferson if he doesnt get any help. A guy who puts up big numbers but is insignificant when it comes to wins/losses.

        • Dec 11, 20125:57 pm
          by Scott Free

          Reply

          If Charlie V had been playing balls out, we’d have seen two beige hardboiled eggs… sorry couldn’t resist.

          Actually if Villanueva had been playing well, we may not have seen an increase in wins (maybe here or there)… but we’d have a trade piece that other teams might be interested in acquiring.  Right now the Pistons have very few of those that arent instrumental to our long-term success. 

        • Dec 11, 201211:23 pm
          by tarsier

          Reply

          “Not to be a dickhead but where have you read around the league circles that this is true? Last time I checked any player on the last year of his deal is a valuable commodity.”

          I don’t know which of the things I said you are responding to. But if it is about Charlie, CV is NOT on the last year of his deal. It jsut feels that way to Pistons fans because Detroit can amnesty him over the summer. But his contract runs through next season. 

      • Dec 11, 20125:54 pm
        by Scott Free

        Reply

        I actually believe Tay and Max are more valuable to the Pistons than other squads.  (Hear me out)  Regardless our opinions of the matter, Tay and Max START for the Pistons, but would be rotational players on likely every other roster in the league.  

        We would NEVER get a player in return for either Tay or Max that could provide as much for the Pistons as those two have.  We would NEVER get an even deal for either of those two — because no one is desperate for either an aging yet efficient SF or an undersized albiet energetic PF, to give up another starting quality player (especially a squad thats signing them to ‘put them over the edge’).  

        Not to mention, we want the Pistons to get better, and that doesn’t happen by moving starters in exchange for situational players or late first/early second round draft picks.
         

        • Dec 11, 201211:28 pm
          by tarsier

          Reply

          Tay and Max are not more valuable to the Pistons than others because winning games is not valuable to the Pistons this season unless they can make the playoffs–which they can’t.

          “Not to mention, we want the Pistons to get better, and that doesn’t happen by moving starters in exchange for situational players or late first/early second round draft picks.”

          The entire point of moving them isn’t to be better this season. But without those two on the books, Detroit could sign players who give them about as much. But, adding draft picks is one of the best way to add value to a franchise. In other words, trading them is taking an immediate loss for a delayed gain (which admittedly probably isn’t as big–but the loss is irrelevant now unless you care whether you support a 30 win team or a 25 win team)

  • Dec 11, 201211:58 am
    by Al

    Reply

    I watched this game and yea they could have won it. Stuckey really wants to shoot the 3 bad for some reason smh, which in turn hurts the team especially when they are bricks. Stuckey first shot was an ill advised 3 in which he missed! I really dont understand why Frank is in love with Magette, I mean this guy walks into the organiation and instantly gets a roster rotation spot and plays bad and has yet to be pulled. I love that he is a voice for the youth but enough is enough already! Bring back JJ/English and lets evaluate. I was one of those guys who wanted Woodson over Frank, but, I was fair and gave Frank a chance but at this point man does Woodson look good with the Knicks, yea they have better players but they had a decent coach in Dantoni so it must be his coaching skills to bring them together like so.. I for one would love to keep Maxiell as a backup PF for the right price. Him and Stuckey would fit together well as a 2nd unit i think. But our future is kinda clear with Drummond and Monroe. I think if given a chance a back court of Knight/English with Singler @ SF would be very good. All of them like to hustle, pass and shoot very well. Throw in Monroe and Drummond and we may have something IMO.

  • Dec 11, 201212:10 pm
    by Al

    Reply

    Watching the season unfold at its current rate is very painful with a bright spot here and there. If it’s like Patrick says, the pattern of management in all, then yes it may very well be time for a change all across the board. There is no reason to have good talent and continue to waste them year after year. The names we all no but who honestly wants to add new names like English, Middleton etc. Why keep drafting then? Why not just make trades for who you really want. Are we waitng a #1 pick just to develope them properly?? Sure having loyalty to vets is a must but at some point business should be business especially if you want to be successful right? Prince, CV and Magette all knew the deal when they decided to stay, so feelings aside shouldn’t be upset if roles are reduced to a minimal unless we are in the playoffs where they then come in to play experience wise. Sighs, well i’m a fan so will always keep watching them reguardless, I just want to see them start to move back in the right direction sooner than later, its been far to long with to many potential draft talents wasted and successful on another team…

  • Dec 11, 20121:18 pm
    by danny

    Reply

    Pull some trades and and let the young boys play.  It is time I’ve tried to be optimistic but shit this team is not on the same page.  Pretty soon im going to start talking about getting a new head coach.  i wont talk about it now since we are paying like 15 other head coaches.

  • Dec 11, 20121:41 pm
    by Jud

    Reply

    Play Drummond with Monroe for a solid twenty games and see what happens.
    This back and forth lineup screws up the chemistry for everyone.

  • Dec 11, 20122:45 pm
    by I HATE FRANK

    Reply

    Last 10 games and more… Knight has emerged as the younger leader of this team…Prince is the stability, and we can not be a solid or good team without Monroe… However, Knight has stepped his game. 

    He is just playing better ball…. 

  • Dec 11, 20124:22 pm
    by piston moribund

    Reply

    Mark it down, Dec 15th.  http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/8734662/jeremy-lin-ryan-anderson-eric-gordon-nba-newly-eligible-trade-candidates
    A day that could bring an early Xmas or more of the same or the very possible, even worse then before.  Lets hope for the former.  Just so there is something new to talk about aside from the degrees of Pistons suckitude.  Cant we all just agree that we suck and move on.  Its like trying to decide if Joe D is fat or FAT.

    • Dec 11, 20126:03 pm
      by Scott Free

      Reply

      The only Pistons reference I caught was ‘Isolayshaun’  anyone hear any trade rumors involving Detroit?

  • Jul 1, 20139:04 pm
    by website

    Reply

    If some one needs expert view regarding running a blog then i advise him/her to go to
    see this blog, Keep up the fastidious work.

  • Hi there, I check your new stuff on a regular
    basis. Your story-telling style is awesome, keep doing what you’re doing!

  • Sep 2, 20137:56 pm
    by industrial workwear

    Reply

    Hi there to all, it’s actually a pleasant for me to go to see this website, it consists of helpful Information.

  • Leave a Reply

    Your Ad Here