↓ Login/Logout ↓
Schedule/Results
↓ Roster ↓
Salaries
↓ Archives ↓
↓ About ↓

The Andre Drummond/Jason Maxiell debate continues

The Vinces — Vince Ellis of the Detroit Free Press and Vincent Goodwill of The Detroit News — each have features on Jason Maxiell‘s solid statistical contributions this season today.

I touched on that as well in a post and the weekly PistonPowered Freep column last week. Maxiell is clearly having a pretty good season. I would never make an argument that Maxiell shouldn’t have a significant role on the Pistons and I don’t even object to him being in the starting lineup. This, though, from Ellis’ story, is a point I might argue a bit:

Twitter and fan sites have been full of activity from those thinking Drummond, the team’s first-round pick, should be in the lineup instead of Maxiell. They might have a point, and even Frank speaks of developing and evaluating players.

But what about guys earning playing time based on merit? Any objective observer can see Maxiell is the superior player right now.

I would probably describe Maxiell as the smarter player. I would probably describe him as physically stronger. And he’s probably a tad better offensively at this point because he does have the ability to knock down a 15-footer, which Drummond doesn’t have.

I’d be hesitant to call him ‘superior,’ though. Drummond’s per-minute production is better than Maxiell’s. I’m not saying that would necessarily hold up if Drummond suddenly began playing 25+ minutes per game, but I’m not saying it wouldn’t hold up either.

I don’t think Ellis is making an unreasonable conclusion. There’s a chance that if Drummond were shoved into the starting lineup and expected to play bigger minutes against starting-caliber players, he’d get exposed — perhaps he’d be in foul trouble or some of his occasionally flawed fundamentals would be taken advantage of more often or bigger, stronger frontline players would put more of a physical beating on him that would wear him down and make him less effective. Those types of things happen to raw young players fairly frequently when they go from small roles to big roles. But Drummond’s excellent production in limited minutes, along with his physical profile — he’s bigger and stronger than your typical 19-year-old entering the league — make me think there’s also a decent chance he’d be more productive than Maxiell if his workload increased and they were playing comparable minutes.

That’s not a knock on Maxiell, either. He’s been very solid this season and certainly doesn’t deserve to be completely demoted or anything like that. But the Pistons also haven’t been very good whether he’s been on the court or off it, so I don’t see what the harm would be in upping Drummond’s minutes a bit at the expense of a few of Maxiell’s minutes to see if Drummond’s per-minute production is a mirage or not.

91 Comments

  • Nov 20, 201211:43 am
    by WW

    Reply

    Bull, Drummond is more of a difference maker now than Maxiell and will only get better.
    Maxiell is lifetime bench player who is only starting cause our team and coach are awful.

  • Nov 20, 201211:50 am
    by Crispus

    Reply

    Maxiell is our only attractive trade chip. Joe D and L Frank might just have a plan where they phase in Drummond as the trade deadline approaches then boom! Maxiell’s gone and Drummond is the starter.

    • Nov 20, 201212:08 pm
      by labatts

      Reply

      Yes, perhaps they plan to trade him and a future first rounder for an oft-injured player past his prime.  Nah, that would never happen.

    • Nov 20, 201212:11 pm
      by steve

      Reply

      I agree, They need Maxie to play the best he can this year until the trade deadline. By then Drummond will be ready to start and we can use Maxiell and for once get something for a player.

  • Nov 20, 201211:58 am
    by sloppy joe

    Reply

    Maxiell has been an excellent difference maker for our team this year.  Whether he is knocking down a crucial jumper from the circle or powerfully slamming it down to energize the team.  Sure Drummond has made some excellent plays as well, but you have got to leave max in the lineup.  Give the kid time to mature… he looks excellent, and I’d hate to ruin the promise he is showing by rushing him into the starting lineup while he is still a teenager.  Maybe he can learn a bit by watching Max play with grit and toughness.  This is the Motor City we are all about grit and toughness and Max embodies that well.

    • Nov 20, 201212:02 pm
      by Patrick Hayes

      Reply

      Is there a such thing as a difference-maker on a 2-9 team?

      • Nov 20, 201212:09 pm
        by labatts

        Reply

        lol.  They could be 1-10

      • Nov 20, 20121:18 pm
        by EMBRACE THE PROCESS

        Reply

        Patrick – That’s all I been trying to say in my own special way …. I’m not saying Drummond would dominate ….but at the end of the day … We are talking 10ppg 6rebs 1.5 blocks ….. I’d rather that from rookie, than a player going into his 9th year having his BEST SEASON

      • Nov 20, 20121:42 pm
        by rick

        Reply

        Better coaching and substitution patterns would have them at least 6-4 in my book.  They have not played any of the upper echelon teams yet and have been in just about every game or even had the lead. At what point will people realize that Frank may be a good assistant coach and nothing more? He will stick to his routine no matter what, which in my opinion may be tailored better for the college game. People would not pay attention to who starts if the wins were there. The man just can’t get it done.

        The Celtics gift wrapped a win. Based off the schedule they had just come off of they were ripe. If a coach has his assistants paying attention to little things like that then Detroit would be in a better position that they are. Taking advantage of weary legs and back to backs gives you a physical advantage. Honestly speaking Detroit is a better team than most give credit and many of their veterans have been playing together to long not to have better results. They do not have a star, but they have a team and its up to the coach to put them in a successful position. 

        Give this team a veteran point guard and maybe a defensive big man and the sky’s is the limit. The one thing that concerms me is the fact that Frank probaby couldnt even go to Mgt and ask for that kind of help,which tells me where he really stands in the organization.  

        • Nov 20, 20121:51 pm
          by Patrick Hayes

          Reply

          “At what point will people realize that Frank may be a good assistant coach and nothing more?”

          I think just about everyone does realize this. He’s not an awful coach and not a great coach. He, like most NBA coaches, falls somewhere in the middle. He’s mediocre, probably better suited to coach a veteran team, etc. But you also have a way too optimistic view of the overall talent on this roster. This is a lottery team. A great coach alone certainly would not have this team 6-4 right now. Better coaching may have accounted for one or maybe two more wins in that stretch. Coaching is over-valued in the NBA. It’s a players league. If you don’t have talent, you’re not going to win, that goes for the elite guys all the way down to the worst coaches. The Pistons have one all-star caliber player in Monroe, and he’s only a fringe all-star. They have a bunch of limited veterans and a bunch of young, unproven players with varying degrees of upside. That is not a playoff team and likely not even a .500 team. 

        • Nov 20, 20124:54 pm
          by MNM

          Reply

          They have not played any of the upper echelon teams yet and have been in just about every game or even had the lead”   …. Lakers (blowout loss), OKC (2 times, 2 losses), Boston (blowout win)..? Who do you consider “upper echelon”?

        • Nov 20, 20129:51 pm
          by Mateo

          Reply

          I guess you don’t consider the Lakers, OKC(twice), Boston as upper echelon teams, you could even throw Denver in the if you want(they are a playoff team). That would make 5 of our first 11 games against teams in the top 10, mostly on the road. 

        • Nov 21, 20123:31 pm
          by tarsier

          Reply

          At least 6-4? Any team that should be at least 6-4 10 games into the season is a team that has a real shot at home court advantage in the first round.

          Either you are the most deluded Pistons fan out there or you are trolling. 

      • Nov 21, 201212:29 pm
        by Piston Heel

        Reply

        Is there a such thing as a difference-maker on a 2-9 team?

        HELL NO NOT ON THIS TEAM!

    • Nov 20, 201212:17 pm
      by steve

      Reply

      Im trying to think of a player who’s career benefited by not playing much their rookie year????
      Heck, remember how skinny Howard was coming in as a kid? They started him right off the bat 

      • Nov 20, 20121:13 pm
        by Patrick Hayes

        Reply

        Jermaine O’Neal is probably the best example. Garnett didn’t start consistently getting 20+ minutes until mid-Decemberish of his rookie year. But yeah, I can’t really think of many bigs who the ‘slow’ approach worked with.

        • Nov 20, 20125:16 pm
          by sloppy joe

          Reply

          Kwame Brown
           

          • Nov 20, 20125:19 pm
            by Patrick Hayes

            Haha, how exactly did his career benefit by not playing early?

        • Nov 20, 20125:24 pm
          by Dan Rafferty

          Reply

          Kobe Bryant

          • Nov 20, 20129:29 pm
            by Patrick Hayes

            Yeah, Kobe is one, but I was just thinking in terms of big men.

          • Nov 21, 20126:32 am
            by EMBRACE THE PROCESS

            Someone said something about Kobe being through along Slowly, well Kobe played Behind a all-star Caliber player …. If Drummond was playing behind Rasheed and Ben wallace in their Prime I would get it …and I’d be talking about our depth! …but unless Maxiell starting today becomes a game changing dominate 4 or closer to 20&10 guy …. Nuffin makes it okay for me

        • Nov 21, 20126:54 am
          by Derek

          Reply

          Zach Randolph was brought along slow, then again he was playing behind Rasheed Wallace.

      • Nov 20, 20125:21 pm
        by Patrick Hayes

        Reply

        Two more i’d add — Tyson Chandler and Joakim Noah. Both guys hovered less than 20 minutes their first few months. Not sure that was something that actually helped their development or if it was just coaches preferring veterans (I think it was definitely a coach preferring vets in Noah’s case), but both guys did do some sitting at the start of their careers and turned out OK.

      • Nov 20, 20126:47 pm
        by kaleb y

        Reply

        umm how about Greg Monroe? He didnt play at all in his first 2 games and didnt play much the first quarter of the season even though the pistons sucked then too. As his production increased his role increased and 3/4 into the season he became a starter. Give drummond time, he still has too many holes defensively for me, not skill wise but awareness wise, knowin where to be and team defense. Same goes for offensive on some plays too.

  • Nov 20, 201212:04 pm
    by Ben Fridsma

    Reply

    Maxiell is the only person who fights for rebounds. stronger than monroe and drummond. okay drummond scores more. id rather have Maxiell than drummond any day.

    • Nov 20, 201212:17 pm
      by Patrick Hayes

      Reply

      Maxiell’s Rebounds per 36 minutes: 8.4
      Drummond’s: 11.1
      Monroe’s: 10.4

      Maxiell’s total rebound percentage: 13.8
      Drummond: 18.1
      Monroe: 16.9

      Maxiell might ‘fight for’ more rebounds than those two, I don’t know how to measure that. But I’d definitely take the guys who actually get more rebounds.

      • Nov 20, 20121:12 pm
        by DasMark

        Reply

        I’d like to think that Frank is transitioning. He’s marginally increasing Dre’s minutes. I don’t know if he’ll overcome Max in the starting line-up this season, but I could see them splitting minutes by season’s end. Who knows? 

        Also, if this team is still looking terrible by the trade deadline, they may trade Maxiell to a contender for a late draft pick or second rounder. Which would be beneficial to Detroit in multiple aspects.

        I’m with you Pat, I’m not averse to Max’s role on this team. He’s performed well considering his talent and skills. But, I wouldn’t go as far as to state that Max is “superior” to Drummond. 

  • Nov 20, 201212:07 pm
    by jake

    Reply

    drummond has a tendency to take himself out of plays because he tries to do too much. i.e. jumping as high as he can to swat a well contested shot, leaving his man to get the offensive rebound. you won’t see max doing that. another thing that jason does well is get himself in perfect position to take charges knowing that he won’t have an opportunity to block/contest the shot. drummond would simply foul or, like stated above, take himself out of the play by doing too much.

    there’s no doubt that drummond will eventually be the better player, but max makes all the little plays at this point. frank sees that, and i hope that pistons fans see that too.

    • Nov 20, 201212:20 pm
      by Patrick Hayes

      Reply

      “there’s no doubt that drummond will eventually be the better player, but max makes all the little plays at this point. frank sees that, and i hope that pistons fans see that too.”

      As I said in the post, Maxiell is surely the smarter, more savvy player of the two right now. But I also hope Pistons fans see that Drummond is far, far more productive on a per-minute basis and deserves an increased role based on that performance. Not saying those minutes should come at Maxiell’s expense necessarily, but they should come at someone’s expense. Drummond, flaws and all, is already their second best big.

  • Nov 20, 201212:12 pm
    by Vic

    Reply

    I like the way that Maxiell is playing this year and I like the fact that Drummond gets to watch how he works on the first unit. But Drummond needs 10 more minutes the game if they want to win more, because he defends the paint and rebounds at a better rate than Maxiell does.

    Also if you look at how the lineups are now, Drummond actually fits better with the first unit. the first unit needs defense in the paint (our 2 wins were against Bynum leas Philly, and jump shooting Garnett), and the second unit needs a floor spacer because it’s all slashers drivers and cutters as of right now. 

    But I don’t expect Frank or Max to make that move, so we can just hope for 25+ min a night from Drummond if they want to keep winning.

    • Nov 20, 201212:17 pm
      by Patrick Hayes

      Reply

      “he defends the paint and rebounds at a better rate than Maxiell does.”

      This. Exactly. 

  • Nov 20, 201212:14 pm
    by Corey

    Reply

    This whole discussion is flawed, except on the “who should start” level. There shouldn’t be any question of whether Max or Drummond should play. There are plenty of minutes for both. The question is: should Jerebko be playing, if he has to play power forward? He’s been really poor the last several games, and I think it’s at least partly because he isn’t a power forward. He shouldn’t be asked to bang with Big Baby and players that size.

    Detroit’s big man rotation should look something like:
    Monroe: 35 mpg
    Maxiel: 28 mpg
    Drummond: 24 mpq

    This adds up to 87 minutes, leaving 9 more available.  These could go to either Max or Drummond on a game-by-game basis, or to Jerebko, or even to Kravtsov if they start to play him. There is really no need to trade minutes between Max and Drummond. There are enough for both to play 30 mpg if desired.

    My personal hope is that Max’s strong play (and let’s remember that this means “competent rotation player” not anything more) will result in a deadline trade giving the Pistons an asset for the future.

     

    • Nov 20, 201212:21 pm
      by Patrick Hayes

      Reply

      Yeah, you’re right. An increase in his minutes don’t have to come at Maxiell’s expense. They just have to come at someone’s. He’s out-played every big in the rotation except Monroe and deserves to play more as a result of that.

    • Nov 20, 20121:29 pm
      by apa8ren9

      Reply

      That is spot on Corey.   You will need Maxiell because you dont have any more bigs that can actually play.  It has to come at Jerebko’s expense as he is the one that is not playing well at this time.   Since it is unlikely that Maggette’s time will be reduced that leaves jerebko as the odd man out and the one that should get 6-12 spot minutes.  Maggette has been getting those leftover 3 backup minutes and is the immediate solution should Singler have an off night.  Someone has to pay up and it should be Jerebko– for now.

    • Nov 20, 20122:03 pm
      by Vic

      Reply

      Good point, JJ has never been a PF. But before his slot he brought so much energy and hustle and productivity… But I agree with you, Jonas is the odd man out and should be waiting until tayshaun and/or Maggette are gone. If it was me though I’d start Jerebko and let Maggette and Tayshaun back him up

  • Nov 20, 201212:18 pm
    by Tom Y.

    Reply

    Looking at basketball reference, Dre’s ahead of Max in pretty much every statistical category  per 36 and in advanced stats, including both offensive and defensive rating and win shares (also way ahead of him and most NBA players in PER, which is not part of Basketball Reference). (Also, off topic, but it’s sure fun that he’s also ahead of Anthony Davis in most of those)

    I do think that Max has been examplifying the effort and intensity Frank wants to see on this team, and I mostly understand Frank’s approach in using minutes to make Drummond constantly work hard and avoid mistakes. He wants him to develop good attention to fundamentals and get used to playing hard all the time. That’s important, but as Patrick has said, if he earns it and then you don’t give it to him, what kind of lesson is that? I understand tough love, but for now it seems like there’s a little too much tough and not enough love…

  • Nov 20, 201212:27 pm
    by MrCarter

    Reply

    I guess I never looked at it that way before. But yeah maybe they should let Maxiell start until the deadline. They should look to trade Tayshaun as well but ONLY if it meant getting an additional 2013 1st round pick in return(and probably some cap space). And please, we couldnt GIVE Villanueva to anyone so we might as well get use to him. He’ll probably be amnestied this offseason anyway.

    • Nov 20, 201212:35 pm
      by labatts

      Reply

      “He’ll probably be amnestied this offseason anyway.”
       
      Why do you think this? Won’t that be his contract year?  I think it is safe to bury the amnesty discussion.

      • Nov 20, 201212:37 pm
        by Patrick Hayes

        Reply

        Yeah, I’m certainly rooting for the amnesty, but I think they’ll only use it if they have a player who is going to sign and they need that extra cap space to make it happen. There’s a chance they could keep his expiring deal and hope a trade materializes.

        • Nov 20, 201212:49 pm
          by Scott Free

          Reply

          I could hope a fortune materializes too (doesn’t mean I should wait for it to happen).  

  • Nov 20, 201212:31 pm
    by bugsygod

    Reply

    My concern is not max playing or starting.  WHY CANT DRUMMOND PLAY WITH MONROE!!  that is the question that needs to be asked.  when monroe was rolling the other night against the celts, he comes out and drummond gets in has some pretty good plays, BUT Frank does not come back with monroe, he comes back with maxiel to play with drummond.  I realize drummond right now is the back up center, but when your starting center monroe is versatile enough to play the 5 & 4, why not play them together more?  This combo in the limited times they have played toghether seems like it really works and is the future of the franchise! 
    start maxiel first 5mins of game, then bring in drummond for last 7 minutes, play monroe for first 9mins of quater, that way drummond/monroe play for about 4-5mins together.  at the 9min mark of 1st q come with jj for monroe.  play him the next 8minutes. 3 in 1stq and 5 in 2nd q.  drummond comes out at about 7min mark of 2nd q for maxiel, this gives drummond 12min in 1st half and 5min with monroe.  its not that hard, you just bring in drummond for max instead of jj for max.  this increases drummond to 24mins per game and reduces max to 24mins.  but the key is PLAY DRUMMOND/MONROE TOGETHER PLEASE!!

    • Nov 20, 20121:12 pm
      by tarsier

      Reply

      This.

      • Nov 20, 20121:33 pm
        by apa8ren9

        Reply

        exactly, i think a lot of us have been saying this since the first preseason game.  I certainly have.  I dont know if Frank thinks this is something he can spring on teams and surprise them, but there have been plenty of examples in just the first 11 games of the season where we are getting hammered on the boards and I noticed that its always when Drummond is not in the game.  Which is all the time.

    • Nov 20, 20122:25 pm
      by Matt

      Reply

      I wonder to what extent the hesitancy pairing Monroe/Drummond has to do with the fact that Monroe (a) rebounds really well (so there’s only so much Drummond could add to that) and (b) needs a lot of space in the paint to work on the offensive end, which Drummond–having no j–would take away. Makes sense to me that Max would be the logical choice until that puzzle is solved, since Max rebounds decently well, too, and can threaten to shoot. 

      • Nov 20, 20123:23 pm
        by tarsier

        Reply

        Defensive rebounding gives diminishing returns, offensive rebounding not so much. Because players relatively rarely get an offensive rebound that one of their teammates would have grabbed anyway whereas most defensive rebounds would have been corralled by a teammate if that player didn’t get it.

        That is one of the reasons I never understood all the complaints about Maxiell’s shortcomings as a defensive rebounder when he was fantastic on the offensive glass. 

      • Nov 20, 20126:52 pm
        by Bugsygod

        Reply

        The pistons right now need more rebounding!  There one of the worst in the league.  That is one of the main reasons Drummond should be playing to help in the rebounding area.   We are giving a lot of credit to Maxiel playing well, but when you really look at the spots we are weak at is interior defense and rebounding.   But Maxiel is playing so well?! This was a problem last year and continues this year with Maxiel starting.  The point of drafting Drummond was to fix these areas.  Drummond has shown in his limited minutes that he helps very much in these areas. Monroe is looking to have a monster year this year. So I’m not really seeing the coachinlogic. Yes Drummond makes rookie mistakes and his conditioning is not at a high level, But Hell Maxiel being undersized is a Consistent disadvantage and you can still see max getting winded in games!   Frank just seems to be going out of his way to praise Maxiel, makes sure max gets his minutes, etc. I just don’t know why. Monroe/Drummond gives Detroit an actual real size advantage 

  • Nov 20, 201212:36 pm
    by XstreamINsanity

    Reply

    Pretty good article.  My only argument, Drummond could potentially have solid 15 footer…..or longer.  Remember this play?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVh99O3Kc48 

  • Nov 20, 201212:41 pm
    by Scott Free

    Reply

    Maxiel is having a career season (albiet in a contract year), so I’ve changed my mind about Drummond starting.  Obviously good arguments can be made either way.  What I don’t get, and I’ve yet to hear a quality answer to:  Why Drummond and Monroe play so little together?  It’s so bonkers, part of me worries Frank sees Drummond competing with Monroe for minutes and Jerebko with Maxiel.

  • Nov 20, 201212:45 pm
    by dtmfr

    Reply

    Patrick Hayes,  ENOUGH with all the Drummond/Maxiell garbage. It’s like you have no talent to write about anything else.  Maxiell will be gone at in 71 games at the most. Let Frank/Dumars play whomever they want. Why don’t you start writing on how the Pistons need to continue to lose so we can land a talented player in next June’s draft?  Why don’t you start profiling some players in next June’s draft? ENOUGH will Drummond.  ENOUGH with Maxiell.

    • Nov 20, 201212:51 pm
      by XstreamINsanity

      Reply

      Probably because most Pistons fans don’t endorse tanking…and this coming draft prospects aren’t that great.

      • Nov 20, 20122:23 pm
        by Vic

        Reply

        I hate tanking… But there is a lot of opportunity in this years draft whether we draft 3, 13, or 33. They could get a star or a pg that can pass, defend, shoot, and finish drives.

        Top 5
        Tony Mitchell
        Shabazz Muhammad

        Top 20
        Marcus Smart 
        Trey Burke
        Michael Carter Williams

        2nd round
        Nate Wolters 

    • Nov 20, 20121:10 pm
      by Scott Free

      Reply

      If you’re expecting him to write about next years draft in NOVEMBER of this season, you expect A LOT of profiles on Shabazz Muhammad in the intervening months.  

      I don’t think Patrick has agreed with a single point I’ve made since haunting these forums, but I’ve got his back on this — the frontcourt rotation is pretty much the only intriguing story on an otherwise subpar team.  

      • Nov 20, 20121:15 pm
        by Patrick Hayes

        Reply

        Really? I don’t think I disagree with you a lot. Here and there occasionally, but you certainly don’t stick out in my mind as someone I’m always disagreeing with. I usually think your points are reasonable.

        • Nov 20, 20121:32 pm
          by Delray313

          Reply

          The question is who will take us further in the near future the answer is Drummond right now he is learning the position and being on the bench should make him hungry. Max problem is he is undersized his heart and will are in place he just get out matched some nights. I say Drummond will be a mix of Howard and Amare when he hits his prime he did ok against Garnett, when Dre figures it all out he and Monroe will be the best front court in the NBA. Drummond has a knack for drawing fouls and scoring around the rim i think he can start now he will only flourish with pt.

        • Nov 20, 20122:48 pm
          by Scott Free

          Reply

          See you’re disagreeing with me here too!  I kid though, It’s all in good-fun.  Why would you (or really anyone) want to comment in agreement?   

           

          • Nov 20, 20123:38 pm
            by Corey

            I agree.

            ;)

    • Nov 20, 20121:27 pm
      by Patrick Hayes

      Reply

      @dtmfr:

      “ENOUGH with all the Drummond/Maxiell garbage.”

      Enough with arguably the central issue around the team right now? Granted, it’s not necessarily about Maxiell necessarily, but Drummond making a strong case for more minutes is a huge issue. Also, part of that issue is who increased minutes for Drummond would come at the expense of. Considering most people want to see a Drummond-Monroe frontcourt for significant stretches, that obviously affects Maxiell since he’s the guy currently starting next to Monroe.

      Sorry if your delicate sensibilities are offended, but I’m not going to stop covering a newsworthy, interesting issue. It’s not my fault there isn’t much else newsworthy going on with the team right now. If they win more games, I’ll write about it less.

      “ It’s like you have no talent to write about anything else.”

      Um … have you not seen my analysis of NBA players as rappers? I rest my case.

      “Maxiell will be gone at in 71 games at the most.”

      Right. Because Dumars makes trades so often. I’d say, considering Dumars’ recent track record, it’s far more likely that they don’t trade Maxiell and instead give him a four year extension in the offseason for more money than any other team was willing to offer.

      “Let Frank/Dumars play whomever they want.”

      Me writing things on a blog has no bearing on their decisions for playing time. You know that, right? They will continue to play who they want irrespective of what I or anyone else writes.

      “Why don’t you start writing on how the Pistons need to continue to lose so we can land a talented player in next June’s draft?”

      Do the Pistons need to be told to lose? They seem to be doing a good job of that on their own without me writing it.

      “Why don’t you start profiling some players in next June’s draft?”

      Well, unless underclassmen start declaring the first week into their college season, I don’t really have a good handle on who will be available. And if I write about the draft now, what will I write about in February-June? 

      • Nov 20, 20121:38 pm
        by XstreamINsanity

        Reply

        Hopefully you’ll be writing in Feb-June about an 8th seed…..SIGH!!!!!!

      • Nov 20, 20122:52 pm
        by Scott Free

        Reply

        I’m just going to toss this out there on a tongue-in-cheek basis… but why choose?  If Max and Drummond are fighting over minutes, why not occasionally swing Maxy to the SF spot (he’s shorter than half the SF’s on our squad AND he can hit a 15 footer.)

        • Nov 20, 20122:55 pm
          by Patrick Hayes

          Reply

          Utah has used Millsap that way occasionally in big lineups with two of Favors/Al Jeff/Kanter up front, although Millsap has a better handle than Maxiell. I’m all for creative lineups though. Maxiell would do fine guarding some backup SFs.

        • Nov 21, 20122:42 am
          by Tom Y.

          Reply

          Yeah, because we have so many minutes to spare in the SF position…

          • Nov 21, 20129:20 am
            by Scott Free

            Good point. We’re a squad overburdened by 6th men.

  • Nov 20, 201212:58 pm
    by israelipiston

    Reply

    Patrick – I cannot agree with you stating that Maxiell has outplayed every big except monroe so he deserves to play. Drummond cannot learn from sitting on the bench watching. Remember Monroe’s rookie year – he sat on the bench and when he finally played his shot was blocked over and over. Like 5 times a game. Yet, Monroe figured out how to adjust and not get his shot blocked. He never would have adjusted if he stayed on the bench.

    Plus I cannot buy the argument about earning playing time. Tayshan sat on the bench behind Michael Curry and we only found out how good Tayshan could be when we were forced to use him to guard Tracy Mcgrady in the playoffs. How could we know how well Tayshun could play when he was guarding Michael Curry in practice.

    Drummond needs to play – period. The more he plays the better he will get and the better the Pistons will be – now and in the future.

    • Nov 20, 20121:15 pm
      by tarsier

      Reply

      “Patrick – I cannot agree with you stating that Maxiell has outplayed every big except monroe”

      When did he say that? I saw this one:

      “Drummond, flaws and all, is already their second best big.” 

    • Nov 20, 20121:28 pm
      by Patrick Hayes

      Reply

      Yeah, I think you misread somewhere israelipiston. I said that about Drummond, not Maxiell.

  • Nov 20, 20121:13 pm
    by Desolation Row

    Reply

    I only support Maxiell eating up Drummond’s minutes until the trade deadline. Before then, I’m all for boosting his trade value and letting Drummond earn his minutes / progress in Frank’s process.

    If it passes and Joe D hasn’t made a deal, Maxiell needs to come off the bench, contract year or not. Time to unleash the beast. Every measurable statistic seems to indicate Maxiell is not as productive as Drummond. So the argument that he is entitled to those minutes just because he “fights harder” or “plays smarter” is rather moot if Drummond’s athleticism is making up for it. I therefore can only get behind the “letting Drummond learn” process for so long and only understand letting Maxiell eat up Drummond and JJ’s mins if it means building his trade value. Otherwise, watching this team is a complete waste of money and a slap in the face to every fan who has stayed loyal…

  • Nov 20, 20122:05 pm
    by Piston Moribund

    Reply

    Max only looks like he is being effective since he has to work twice as hard to garner the appearance of playing well.  Its like a corporate lackey who needs twice as long to complete a task but appears to work hard.  Dre looks like hes a bit lost at times and yet he manages to get his hands on most of the rebounds even though he doesn’t end up with all of them.  Its takes him less effort to achieve the same result so it looks like Max is bring in more energy.  Less efficiency = more work = “bring more energy” = pay raise = extension = Joe D fired = Frank fired = better pistons team.  Perception often times dictates reality and not the other way around.  Or in the case of CV, perception is reality.

  • Nov 20, 20122:10 pm
    by Slap Dog Hoops

    Reply

    Drummond is in no way ready to start.  He’s too raw and his limited offensive skills might actually hurt the Pistons that help them if he started.  Sure, if you look at the number, Drummond may hypothetically be better than Maxiel, but numbers only tell a small portion of the story.  Numbers don’t factor in the pressure that comes in being a starter and the on court chemistry that may occur if such a change happens.  

    He’s better off backing up Greg Monroe getting spot minutes and providing energy off of the bench.  He is in no ways ready for such a responsibility and in many ways should not have even been selected so high in the draft.

    • Nov 20, 20122:58 pm
      by Piston Moribund

      Reply

      Watching is also a tell and anyone who watches basketball can surmise that putting Moose in the high post and putting a 5-6″ center will cost the team in rebounds and defense.  He is too far away to really matter in the rebound department.  Starting or not, Dre should get more minutes then Max precisely b/c of what you just said, Dre IS better then Max.  If you insert a legit center, then that allows Moose to operate more freely without shouldering all the rebounding responsibilities.  That is why the Pistons get crushed when there are real centers in the game.  You can see Max get over powered most of the time and not getting the offensive rebounds when it counts most the majority of the time.  The norm is that he cannot get the rebounds, it is only when he does come up with one that the unexpected becomes extraordinary.  Against the Celtics, he got two offensive rebounds in the stats in the same offensive sequence.  His total offensive number was 2, the same number and not more.  The way that people have been hyping up his play makes it quite obvious that they are not watching the game.  He is having a career year and compared to most teams, his ceiling deserves to be bench numbers, that is just a fact.  He is only a moderately sized fish in a puddle playing for his last contract.  That makes him the smartest person in the organization.  Unless Joe D and Frank are really “playing him”, i which case, X-mas cant come soon enough.  Where is Trader Jack when you need him most.

    • Nov 20, 20124:20 pm
      by Desolation Row

      Reply

      “Numbers don’t factor in the pressure that comes in being a starter and the on court chemistry that may occur if such a change happens.”

      Umm… what? How do they not factor it in? Are you saying that the more minutes Drummond gets, there will be a decline in efficiency? Otherwise, the numbers absolutely factor it in because they are meant to serve as a benchmark against to measure players against each other. If a player’s numbers drop because of pressure, they will drop and you can measure it. I think you’re underestimating the benefit of metrics in this regard. 

      “… Should not have been selected so high in the draft.” Support for this argument is….??? His per minute averages suggest he should have been drafted higher. You say the numbers don’t tell the whole story, and I presume you mean this because he’s had limited minutes, yet you advocate against giving him more minutes to prove that he is worth being drafted so high. In other words, if he does perform in limited time you think it means nothing yet you don’t want to give him more minutes to prove he can sustain his performance.

      Your argument, in summary, seems to be: he’s overrated because if he gets more minutes and starts he’ll have a drop-off (based off zero regression analysis whatsoever), but let’s not test this theory either. In other words, you have no argument. I’m sorry, I don’t mean to be an ass here, I’m just not sure what your point is outside of “Drummond sucks and I have nothing to support this assertion.”

  • Nov 20, 20124:06 pm
    by tarsier

    Reply

    “He’s too raw and his limited offensive skills”
    “He’s better off… getting spot minutes” 
    “in many ways should not have even been selected so high in the draft.” 

    Did you just read draft profiles/analyses? Or have you actually existed for the past 2 months? If so, why haven’t you watched Drummond at all?

    • Nov 20, 20124:22 pm
      by Desolation Row

      Reply

      I agree. No explanation for the argument outside of blind faith in “the process” and authority figures. 

  • Nov 20, 20124:22 pm
    by RationalSportsFan

    Reply

    Starting or not, there is no excuse for Drummond to only be playing 15.4 MPG.  I am honestly unsure of what Frank’s reasoning process could possibly be.
    He wants Drummond to earn his minutes? Well, Drummond put up the best game of his career vs OKC, and Frank responded by playing him less than 15 minutes in 3 of the next 4 games.

    • Nov 20, 20124:25 pm
      by Desolation Row

      Reply

      I think there is an excuse: build up Maxiell’s numbers and leverage his performance + expiring contract as a trade chip, then start Drummond after trading him or bench him after the trade deadline. Works out well in giving Drummond time to develop (still early in the season). However, that’s literally the only argument I can accept and a part of me fears we’re going to stand pat and offer Maxiell more money than he’s worth for way too long… and we’ll have the blind sheep fans who say it was a good move by Dumars a la Tayshaun Prince’s re-signing.  

      • Nov 20, 20125:49 pm
        by RationalSportsFan

        Reply

        The issue though, as mentioned by many above, is that Drummond does not have to cut into Maxiell’s minutes much at all.  He can cut into other players minutes.  Cut 4 from Tay, 2 from Max, and 2 from Jerebko (though obviously Drummond would not be directly replacing Tay, but someone like Jerebko would play more minutes at SF) and you have 8 more mins per game for Drummond.

  • Nov 20, 20125:36 pm
    by Andrew

    Reply

    A question:  What does “merit” mean?
     
    If “merit” is defined by “play most likely to lead to a win in a given game”, Drummond has earned at least 30 minutes a game on merit.  Mr. Hayes has said Drummond has shown himself to be the team’s second best big man, and I agree.  But we’re both using the eye test.  I can’t find a persuasive statistical argument that Drummond is less than the best player, big or small, on the roster.  Drummond is 15th in the NBA in PER, Monroe is next best at 43rd.  Drummond is 16th in the league in true shooting percentage, Maxiell is next best at 88th.  Drummond, per minute, is the best rebounder by every metric I’ve seen.  He’s the best shot blocker.  He leads the team in on court/off court differential.  He leads the team in own production/opponent production ratio.  If someone claims a different Piston is a better player than Drummond, they have to do so in the face of all available statistical evidence.  
     
    However, I don’t think that’s how Frank defines “merit”.  I think his definition is closer to an amalgam of “effort, consistency, seniority, low error-rate, not a teenager”.  By this definition it may be there is nothing Drummond can do this season that will surpass Maxiell’s cumulative “merit” earned over a lengthy NBA career.  Production or on-court utility isn’t “merit” here, it’s a hoped for by-product of merit.  If so, Frank deserves to be on the hot seat as a Detroit coach.  Detroit fans have already suffered through one Rod Marinelli; we don’t need a second.
     
    As to Mr. Ellis’ quote, any “objective” reader would conclude he hasn’t been watching closely, doesn’t understand statistics, or does not have access to a dictionary (with which he could find the word “objective” defined).  It’s perfectly reasonable to feel that Drummond’s statistics would not hold up with increased playing time, or against starters, or that he harms the team in ways that don’t show up in even advanced statistics, or that Maxiell excells in valuable but statistically invisible parts of the game.  But to state, as an absolute fact, that Maxiell is objectively better than Drummond is just stupid  (in my subjective judgment).

  • Nov 20, 20127:15 pm
    by esrom

    Reply

    don’t trade maxiell!  how he’s playing, for only $5M a year.
    sure, we all hope to see drummond supplant him someday(now?),
    but he’s a fine player off any teams bench. 
    wait ’til we see how much the market will give him before we ship him out.   

    • Nov 21, 20122:54 am
      by Tom Y.

      Reply

      We’ve already seen Max up his game in a contract year, then let himself slump and get out of shape afterwards. At over 30 when it’s time for him to sign a new deal, I don’t expect him to ever have another season as good as this, certainly not several seasons. He’s a good big off the bench for 15-20 minutes per game, which is certainly important for a playoff team, not so much for a rebuilding team. Not that I’d be so much against keeping him in that role, but I’d rather have a pick if we can get one for him.

  • Nov 20, 20128:58 pm
    by Corey

    Reply

    I want to see Maxiel traded because it would mean “selling high” on him. If he gets a new multi-year contract he’ll never be in the shape he is now in his contract year, and never be as good. Sure, I’d like to keep him for $2m/year, but I have no faith in JoD on that subject. He has a strong history of overpaying his vets on contract extensions. I’d rather the team trade him for a late first or another player they want long-term than do that.

  • Nov 20, 20129:05 pm
    by ZekeKhaseli

    Reply

    The Pistons are not gonna trade Maxiell. They have too much respect for him. The script unfolded the way they wanted to. Drummond is earning the minute. Max is playing well. The bad thing is the record. This is actually good for Drummond IMHO. Part of the mental development

  • Nov 21, 20129:30 am
    by EMBRACE THE PROCESS

    Reply

    Problem is out of all the ownners in the world, we get a Gene Simmons look-alike with no Basketball IQ …. for the first-time ever im okay with let Joe Walk…. Have a Fundamental basketball coach is great when you are the Spurs or Celtics , not when in your heart of hearts you know you have a team several years away or a breakout star away from even being a legit team. We arent even Marketable

    • Nov 21, 201212:27 pm
      by Crispus

      Reply

      “You gotta lose your mind in De-troit Rock Cit-ay”

  • Nov 21, 20129:34 am
    by Piston87

    Reply

    Somonelse wondering why Drummond is playing more:

    http://www.thenbageek.com/articles/the-2012-rookies-through-10-games

    • Nov 21, 20129:35 am
      by Piston87

      Reply

      Forgot the quote:

      “But why hasn’t Andre Drummond been getting a ton of playing time? It sure as hell isn’t because the Pistons are trying to “win now”. What is it about those nights where Drummond plays 14 minutes, grabs 3 rebounds, 2 blocks, a steal, and scores 10 points with 80% true shooting that makes Frank hesitate to see what he can do in 20 minutes? Or 25?”

      • Nov 21, 20129:49 am
        by EMBRACE THE PROCESS

        Reply

        Even with road games announcers, they speak about how impressed they are with Drummond…

        Shaquille O’neal who Hardly will EVER Praises BIG MEN said Drummond is someone to keep an eye out for

        Unbias Writers are saying WHY DOESN’T Drummond play more!

        It doesnt make sense to sit the most dominate interior, HELL even perimeter defender we have (im reaching at bit about Perimeter defender, but he has more steals in the open court than our guards do)

        • Nov 21, 20123:32 pm
          by tarsier

          Reply

          Shaq hardly ever praises big men? He loves big men. Except Dwight Howard.

          • Nov 21, 20123:36 pm
            by Patrick Hayes

            Shaq also insists that DeAndre Jordan is better than Marc Gasol, so he’s not exactly an authority I trust all that much in his big man evaluations, even if he is right on Drummond.

  • Nov 21, 20129:51 am
    by EMBRACE THE PROCESS

    Reply

    what pisses me off the most is that…Frank and joe are sitting somewhere thinking they are outsmarting everyone else… Thats what Pisses me off

  • Nov 21, 201212:22 pm
    by Piston Heel

    Reply

    I sum it up like this yeah maxiel is having a carrer season for himself but its a shame that a rookie Drummond still looks better than a 8 year vet maxiell. Drummond just looks like he belongs in the line up down low, maxiel might have the heart but drummond has the presence to bring the masses

  • Leave a Reply

    Your Ad Here