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Pistons defense, rebounding falls apart in loss to Orlando

Orlando Magic 110 FinalRecap | Box Score 106 Detroit Pistons
Jason Maxiell, PF 32 MIN | 5-10 FG | 1-1 FT | 5 REB | 0 AST | 11 PTS | +3Maxiell had another solid night, and had one of the best dunks of the season so far over Glen Davis, but he and Monroe were both bad defensively and got bullied by Orlando’s frontline on the boards.
Tayshaun Prince, SF 34 MIN | 7-11 FG | 4-4 FT | 3 REB | 3 AST | 18 PTS | 0Prince had one of this better games of the season and continues to impress with his quicker decision-making. But he was part of a perimeter defense that gave up way too many open looks, in the fourth quarter especially.
Kyle Singler, SF 29 MIN | 5-10 FG | 3-4 FT | 2 REB | 1 AST | 14 PTS | +17Singler wasn’t great defensively, but he was efficient, spaced the floor and had his second straight nice game as a starter.
Greg Monroe, C 36 MIN | 9-12 FG | 5-5 FT | 7 REB | 1 AST | 23 PTS | 0Monroe was great overall offensively, poor overall defensively. He wasn’t his active self on the glass, but he was unguardable on offense.
Brandon Knight, PG 35 MIN | 4-12 FG | 1-2 FT | 6 REB | 12 AST | 10 PTS | -2Knight was very solid distributing the ball. He’s still rough around the edges as a point guard (more on that in a minute), but he had 12 assists and just three turnovers. Two of those turnovers were early in the game, so he played most of the game turnover-free. He did struggle shooting the ball though.
Jonas Jerebko, PF 13 MIN | 1-1 FG | 0-0 FT | 2 REB | 0 AST | 2 PTS | -2Jerebko didn’t play worse defensively than the starting frontcourt, but he also wasn’t particularly active during his 13 minutes.
Corey Maggette, SF 14 MIN | 3-8 FG | 1-2 FT | 1 REB | 0 AST | 7 PTS | -4Maggette showed a couple flashes of rounding into playing shape, but he’s still a little sloppy.
Andre Drummond, C 15 MIN | 5-6 FG | 0-0 FT | 3 REB | 0 AST | 10 PTS | -9Drummond was highly effective, the starting front line was bad defensively and somehow, Drummond only managed 15 minutes. Makes no sense.
Will Bynum, PG 11 MIN | 1-5 FG | 0-0 FT | 0 REB | 3 AST | 2 PTS | -4Bynum didn’t shoot well. He did pick up three assists, but he forced his own offense a bit and wasn’t effective when he was on the court.
Rodney Stuckey, PG 21 MIN | 4-7 FG | 1-2 FT | 1 REB | 1 AST | 9 PTS | -19Stuckey shot better in the second half, but wasn’t good defensively and was a -19 in the game for the Pistons. +/- doesn’t tell the whole story as it largely depends on who a player is on the court with, but he was the only Piston with close to that bad of a +/-.
Lawrence Frank, HEAD COACHThe usual suspect with Frank — his frontcourt defense struggled, Drummond played really well in limited minutes and he didn’t change up his rotation at all to account for those things. The Pistons lost this game because of the players. They didn’t rebound well and they made awful decisions defensively that left shooters open. But Frank’s lack of creativity using Drummond more effectively continues to be baffling.

Monroe played great except …

I touched on Monroe’s poor defense above, but as a below average defender to this point in his career, that’s just something the Pistons have to account for right now. But he also had one bad offensive possession late in the game. With about 30 seconds left on an in-bounds play, the Pistons got a favorable matchup — Monroe with the ball and Arron Afflalo guarding him in the post on a switch. Monroe looked off balance and awkwardly plowed to the basket before gathering himself. He tried to draw contact, faded on his shot and missed badly, looking for a bailout whistle which was never going to come on that play. As the Pistons and Monroe get better, he’s likely going to see the ball more in situations like that and needs to get better at taking his time. If he would’ve realized that he didn’t need to go that quickly, he likely would’ve found a much better shot.

Knight played great except …

No real complaints about Knight trying to set up others tonight — 12 assists with just three turnovers is very good production, even if he shot poorly. He also did a nice job defensively against Jameer Nelson. But little plays here and there are signs that Knight is very much a work in progress as a PG. On a 2-on-1 break with Singler late in the game, Knight first tried to attack the defender, realized late that he should pass and put Singler in an awkward position to try and get a shot off. Singler was fouled and hit both free throws, so it worked out, but it was a reminder that a pass-first mentality does not come naturally to Knight.

The shooting guard situation

Singler has been really solid through two games in the starting lineup. His floor-spacing has made the offense run more smoothly, he’s an intelligent player who knows his limitations and stays within them and, although he’s not exceptional in any one key area, he’s pretty solid across the board. Plus, despite being a power forward in college, he’s held his own against two guards. I don’t expect that to continue against the best ones in the league, but he’s more athletic than he’s given credit for and his long arms help make up for his lack of quickness against perimeter players. But he’s also not a long-term solution at that spot. Based on his play this season, though, neither is Stuckey. He’s just far too inconsistent.

The situation is OK for now — Singler is playing well, the starting unit as a whole looks more fluid offensively and Stuckey has accepted — or hell, downright begged for — the bench assignment. But shooting guard remains the postion the Pistons most need to address.

54 Comments

  • Nov 16, 201210:42 pm
    by EMBRACE THE PROCESS

    Reply

    I think Knight should get an A

    Shooting was off…but 12 ast,,,and like you said they came early….all in the 1st qrt….he also played excellent defense again…

    Nelson had a nice ast game, but I blame the double teaming and trapping defense, I would just like to see more man to man and pressing by the guards…. 

    • Nov 16, 201211:02 pm
      by Patrick Hayes

      Reply

      Eh, I can’t give him an A. He didn’t just shoot poorly, a lot of his misses were clean looks. He also continues to drive me crazy when he passes up clean looks at threes to drive inside for contested mid-range shots instead. He did that a couple times tonight.

    • Nov 17, 20125:54 pm
      by Stuckey and Whoever

      Reply

      The thing that gets me is how the team pulled it together the second half last year.  Well a High School coach would say take that amount of success and develop from there.  It seems like just because of a few new players coach throws in a wrench to the plans that were doing better than any other recent ones in say 4yrs, and things go to crap.  Specifically in Stuckeys case, wasn’t he playing his best basketball then??  And he sure wasn’t throw in the corner while he was playing that way.  Stuckey still deserves to start and I would be straight pissed If I was him too. 

  • Nov 16, 201210:45 pm
    by EMBRACE THE PROCESS

    Reply

    Okay….

    How about this Frank…

    Go ahead and continue to start Maxiell, but Drummond has to be in the game late for defensive reasons…he alters shots…. I just dont see Glenn getting that shot off against Drummond…. 

  • Nov 16, 201210:48 pm
    by EMBRACE THE PROCESS

    Reply

    I agree, about Knight becoming a Pass-First PG…. and he is a offensive attacking PG…I would love to see him play more like Tony Parker… he doesnt need to be a 10 ast guy…but if Knight could be a 17 and 6-7 guy… that would be awesome

    But its nice to see the development 

  • Nov 16, 201211:17 pm
    by Jodi Jezz

    Reply

    This guy Frank is messing up my team…Singler shouldn’t be a starter on the Pistons…

    • Nov 16, 201211:22 pm
      by Patrick Hayes

      Reply

      Oh, this guy.

      Luckily, it’s not your team.

      • Nov 16, 201211:34 pm
        by Jodi Jezz

        Reply

        I’m sorry Patrick, I don’t believe in your boy Singler…He seems better suited coming off the bench or starting for another team…A Knight/Singler back-court isn’t going anywhere nor is it Pistons basketball…I’m fine with Stuckey playing 6th man, but we need to trade for a legit SG to be our starter not Singler…

        • Nov 16, 201211:39 pm
          by Patrick Hayes

          Reply

          They have no better option right now. Also, seems like I read similar sentiments somewhere before. Oh yeah:

          “The situation is OK for now — Singler is playing well, the starting unit as a whole looks more fluid offensively and Stuckey has accepted — or hell, downright begged for — the bench assignment. But shooting guard remains the postion the Pistons most need to address.” 

          Weird. Singler is ‘my boy’ when I just wrote the same basic thing you did.

          • Nov 16, 201211:49 pm
            by Jodi Jezz

            I never posted that…Let me make this clear though, I like Singler as a player…I just don’t think he’s a starting 2…I wouldn’t mind seeing him log in big minutes off the bench at the 3…
             

          • Nov 17, 20121:35 pm
            by tarsier

            Of course you never posted that, Jodi. Patrick is saying he posted that. Which he did. And it is nearly exactly the same thing you just said.

            Basically Patrick is arguing that Singler is doing a good job as starting SG on the team but that he shouldn’t have the role long-term. You are trying to argue (but kinda accidentally agreeing) by saying Patrick is too big a Singler fan because Singler isn’t the long-term solution. 

        • Nov 16, 201211:41 pm
          by Patrick Hayes

          Reply

          And just to point out, you not believing in Singler is probably a good thing. You’re also the guy who has spent the past year or so in the comments here ‘not believing in’ Jerebko and believing heavily in Villanueva and Gordon, so excuse me if I don’t take your evaluation of Singler’s talents all that seriously.

          • Nov 17, 201212:01 am
            by Jodi Jezz

            Patrick, Jonas has been everything I said he was going to be, nothing but a role player…In addition, who wouldn’t have believed in Gordon or Charlie V when they both came to Detroit off of 20ppg and 16ppg seasons…UCONN Baby!!

          • Nov 17, 20129:22 am
            by Andrew

            Not believing in Jerebko isn’t a knock on Jodi’s personnel judgment – Jerebko’s production has been anemic this season, and his defense, poor.  He doesn’t seem able to hold up defensively as a power forward, but isn’t skilled enough to make it as a small forward.  He’s a classic tweener, and those usually don’t turn out too well.

          • Nov 17, 20121:43 pm
            by tarsier

            “who wouldn’t have believed in Gordon or Charlie V when they both came to Detroit off of 20ppg and 16ppg seasons”

            If this site is anything close to a representative sample, most Pistons fans. Because we recognized that both were coming off career seasons in contract years, both were terrible defensively, and, even if they maintained production at the absolute highest level they had ever played at, their contracts would be just about right. Most did not expect them to be as bad as they were, but even if they had put up somewhere around their career average production to that point, they would have been severely overpaid.

            That said, it wasn’t at that point that your belief in them was unwarranted. There was still a large minority f Piston fans excited about their new FAs. It was how you ignored evidence and stuck to your guns for more than two years after the fact that makes your belief in BG and CV downright ludicrous.

            One more thing, Jerebko’s performance (statistically) has been pretty bad this season. But you vehemently defend Stuckey (who has been much worse). So why not JJ? Why is the body of work more meaningful than 10 games in one case but not the other?

        • Nov 16, 201211:42 pm
          by Pete

          Reply

          I agree. The Pistons need a REAL  starting caliber shooting guard. Not Combo guard or a small foward playing SG (Singler or Daye..smh). Afflalo looks more and more like the player the Pistons shouldve KEPT. He exactly what they need.. 

          • Nov 17, 201212:00 am
            by Patrick Hayes

            The issue isn’t what they ‘need.’ It’s what they have. And among what they have, Singler is best suited to start at SG right this moment.

          • Nov 17, 20121:44 pm
            by tarsier

            And probably will be for a while, unless they can find a way to trade for Klay Thompson or some such player.

  • Nov 16, 201211:40 pm
    by ZekeKhaseli

    Reply

    I backed patrick on this one. When Singler was in the game we were + 15 or something. The spacing was a lot better. He gave us the three point threat. Aggressive to the hoops and all. No argument about Stuck coming off the bench. We are inconsistent on protecting the paint and grabbing the offensive rebound. Jerebko’s energy is down and we need to get Monroe-Drummond combo more playing time.. I blame the coaching for not getting back to the starter in the fourth. We would’ve won by establishing the defensive energy on the fourth early on.. oh well.. we got the green machine next.. don’t know what to expect anymore with so many juggling the rotation thing.. Frank is just one confused coach

  • Nov 16, 201211:41 pm
    by ZekeKhaseli

    Reply

    We are 1-9.. if the next 10 games we’re not getting better, there will be move made by management.. crossing finger

    • Nov 17, 20121:45 pm
      by tarsier

      Reply

      You have too much faith in management *cough Dumars cough*

  • Nov 16, 201211:42 pm
    by MNM

    Reply

    So when the draft comes, do the Pistons draft a lottory worthy shooting guard, or a lottory worthy small forward…?

    • Nov 17, 201212:35 am
      by Reaction

      Reply

      Shabazz. If we get lucky

      • Nov 17, 201210:25 am
        by MNM

        Reply

        Matt Dery had mentioned that he was reinstated to play last night and that a Pistons scout there. I haven’t seen him play, but I’ve heard about him.

    • Nov 17, 20122:44 am
      by Joe Dumars

      Reply

      Ben McLemore would be a nice second option for a shooting guard. Hes got a real smooth jumper like Ray Allen.

      • Nov 17, 201210:27 am
        by MNM

        Reply

        I know it’s early, and Im not familiar with him, but does he seem like he could be a “go-to” scorer?

  • Nov 16, 201211:43 pm
    by Day and Knight

    Reply

    Jodi, of all guys that enter this site I HAVE to be at the very least top 5 in the “who loves Stuckey the most” contest. It’s well documented I’m sure Patrick could back me up on that one…but with that being said, Singler definitely belongs in the starting line up. Not saying he’s better overall but for what we need he fits the bill more than Stuckey.

    On a side note, Drummond fits the bill more than Maxiell as well, but Frank is pretty damn stubborn so not much we can do there unfortunately 

  • Nov 16, 201211:50 pm
    by Jay

    Reply

    So stuckey was -19 and singler was +17. Hmmmmm
     

  • Nov 16, 201211:56 pm
    by shawn brown

    Reply

    i going to come from a glass is half – full perspective.  we have the makings of one hell of a frontcourt and a decent bench. (with the exceptions of c.v. and daye) everyone has to remember that this team is real young.  drummond is only 19 , i believe that knight and monroe are 22 and 23 respectively.   knight looks to be making progress.  where i think gores messed up is hiring frank instead of woodson.   this is not a knock on frank as he has proven with the right team and situation hes a solid NBA head coach, but i dont think this situation is right for the team or him. why not play drummond more?   what do you have to lose at this point?   

    • Nov 16, 201211:59 pm
      by Patrick Hayes

      Reply

      In fairness, I don’t think it was the right situation for Woodson, either. If you’ve noticed, his preference in NY is to build his bench/reserves with ever 37-year-old dinosaur he can find. Woodson is a solid coach who does much better with veterans, and that appears to be what Frank is too, which is why he’s been kind of a disaster with young teams in NJ and Detroit.

      Personally, I wish the Pistons would’ve done something like Charlotte did. Recognize that they were not going to be good, then brought in an unknown or lesser known coach who specializes in young player development.  

    • Nov 17, 201210:31 am
      by MNM

      Reply

      Shawn- He’s younger than you thought.. Knight actually doesn’t turn 21 till December..

  • Nov 17, 20121:15 am
    by starlight0997

    Reply

    Let’s scratch what I said earlier on front court and back court defense. It seems that I have forgotten that OKC still does not have great low posters (Perkins is there for defense, and Ibaka is more on pick and pops and athletic moves rather than turning his back). The defensive performance against Philadelphia also might have been just a bit flukey (on the low post anyways). Knight has been playing relatively well on defense (though I’m not sure about the other guards). This could be fixed if only Drummond played a little bit more. 
    It looks like yet another fourth quarter melt down. At this point I don’t know if we should point fingers at the players (for their disappearing) or… Frank (I have been patient with this guy, but now I just don’t know anymore).

  • Nov 17, 20121:27 am
    by Mark

    Reply

    yeah Woodson was not a good fit for this team. He needs a roster full of veterans and we dont have that.

    Adelman was the one we should’ve gotten. Imagine his SAC offense here with the passong ability of Monroe and Drummond? Not to mention Knight who is turning into a great playmaker too.

    Just looking at what hes doing in MIN with thst young team, he wouldve been perfect.

    Thats the type of coach we need. A proven coach. No more of these you guys like Frank, Curry, Kuester. I think Stan Van Gundy should be the next coach. Look at what he did with ORL, taking them from worst to the Finals. He’s proven he can develop a young team. And developed Dwight into the best C in the league. I’d love him to do the same with Drummond/Monroe.

    • Nov 17, 20121:27 am
      by Mark

      Reply

      *young guys

      • Nov 17, 20122:38 am
        by Joe Dumars

        Reply

        Stan Van Gundy didn’t take the Magic worst to the Finals. The Magic made the playoffs with Brian Hill as the head coach the season before their signed Van Gundy.

        I think the Pistons might have trouble hiring a proven coach with how often coaches get fired. There really hasn’t been a stable coaching situation since Chuck Daly

  • Nov 17, 20126:46 am
    by EMBRACE THE PROCESS

    Reply

    LOL… How man people have seen Shabazz player?

  • Nov 17, 20128:32 am
    by bugsygod

    Reply

    This was a coaching loss pure and simple.  You have a 13pt lead in the 3rd q against a weak orlando team and then proceed to let big baby and reddick beat you.  So no defensive adjustments?  no get the ball out of redicks hands?  just one on one D late in the game on the 2 hottest players. smh.  i think we are all recognizing that flaw in Frank…non flexible.  Drummond still only getting 15mins??  why??? HE IS PLAYING WELL, PROTECTING THE RIM, YOU ARE A BETTER TEAM WITH HIM ON THE COURT!  Oh well, another high lottery pick and salary cap room this summer.

    • Nov 17, 20128:56 am
      by vic

      Reply

      accurate. kudos to Stuckey for doing his best to try to help the team win. but     unless Frank wants to defend the paint, the paint will be open and then the 3 point line will open up too.

  • Nov 17, 20129:02 am
    by bugsygod

    Reply

    Also it will be Funny when the cavs, bobcats, wizards, raps, etc start tanking at the end of the season and the pistons will still be looking for wins.  Then these teams will pass us by for draft positions and we have the false belief by winning games late in season that we are improving and playoff worthy next year. 

  • Nov 17, 20129:14 am
    by Pistons87

    Reply

    Rodney deserved a D at least.  His only good stretch was when he subbed for Knight and even that was debateable. I like Rodney but this version of Rodney may not even belong in the NBA. I really hope he pulls it together.   

    Frank Deserved an F. His worst coaching job of the season and his decision to play maggette, Bynum, Stuckey, Jerebko and Drummond together for 5 minutes to start the 4 was miNd boggling. That’s a tank the season lineup.  no defense (Andre can’t do it all), no shooting, no cohesion. His rotations just killed last night. 

    • Nov 17, 201210:10 am
      by vic

      Reply

      I can’t wait for the days like the old days when they win when they can, and lose honest… and random average fans can’t make better coaching decisions… and players don’t put themselves on the floor – and then put themselves on the bench to help the team win.
      4TH Quarter is winning time, not lose your lead time.

      If Stuckey joins the 2nd unit, and Maggette joins the 2nd unit –  Bynum sits out! English goes in. There’s absolutely no outside shooting in that lineup. How do you have 5 players that all cut to the hole and drive to the hole at the same time, playing with only 1 ball?

      If the first unit works so well because of the floor spacing that Singler brings, how do you not have at least 1 player that can shoot in the 2nd unit? They draft Kim English to shoot and play wing defense – then they lose in the 4th quarter because they play 5 rim attackers and no perimeter defenders. 

      Maybe Tom and Joe D are tanking thru Frank, and Franks the only one that doesn’t know. Or maybe Frank is in on it too, and they just want to keep their draft pick. I’m trying to keep it positive – because if they aren’t doing this on purpose its a very sad situation. 

  • Nov 17, 201210:33 am
    by Lisa

    Reply

    We need a closer. Monroe was awful at the very end of the game, with 30 second to go. Frank took an important time out, and what did we get, a pray being thrown up by Greg. Awful! The bench lost that game for us. We never have any time outs left at the end of the games when we need them the most.

    • Nov 17, 201211:32 am
      by frankie d

      Reply

      i’ve noticed the lack of late-game time outs also.
      in just about every close game, when they definitely need them, they are always scrambling with no time outs.
      pretty poor game management. 

  • Nov 17, 201211:44 am
    by frankie d

    Reply

    imho, the biggest problem right now is that the line-up and rotation is not being dictated by what actually works best on court.
    it seems that the coach is simply trying to make sure certain players get on the court and he is cobbling lineups together in order to get those players on the court for a certain length of time.
    i’m not sure if dumars is putting pressure on frank to get certain guys on the court or whether frank is making those decisions alone, but the line-ups are, at times, just totally nonsensical.
    i can’t believe that frank is that dumb, so i have to believe that dumars is putting some kind of pressure on him to play certain guys.  this result is not pretty to watch. 
    i’m no fan of frank – i just think he was the wrong guy for this team – but i still think that dumars is actually the main culprit here.  he just has too much money and too many minutes tied up in players who will not be part of any future piston solution.   so the question becomes: why are they playing so many minutes while important cogs in the future sit and watch? 

    • Nov 17, 20124:10 pm
      by Vic

      Reply

      It’s hard for me to believe that Frank is this dense too… Even with his history of poor starts, his rotations and nonsense roster decisions are incredible. I think it’s a tank job to keep a high draft pick…Because losing veterans don’t have high trade value, even if they start and play too much 

  • Nov 17, 201212:13 pm
    by LT

    Reply

    Patrick, why don’t you criticize Will Bynum more frequently. i do not recall his grades on past games. f i was doing the assessment, then he would have received a D or F every game this year. In my opinion he does not fit on this roster because he and Stuckey appear to be redundant, only Stuckey is better. I will be waiting to read yoyr response, Patrick.

    • Nov 18, 201210:26 am
      by Patrick Hayes

      Reply

      “ f i was doing the assessment, then he would have received a D or F every game this year.”

      Well, your grades would be wrong then. Bynum’s had a couple of good games, a couple of really bad ones and most have been in the middle. 

  • Nov 17, 201212:38 pm
    by Scott Free

    Reply

    Damn!  If Knight walked on water you’d complain about him not swimming enough.

    • Nov 17, 20121:51 pm
      by tarsier

      Reply

      How do you figure? He had a good game (great in one statistical category, poor to decent in most others) and he got a good grade. If he has a great game, he’ll have a great grade. But 4-12, only getting to the line twice, only converting one of them, and 3 TOs is a far cry from “walking on water”. The 6 boards and 12 assists were fantastic, though.

    • Nov 18, 201210:27 am
      by Patrick Hayes

      Reply

      Giving him a B while complimenting his passing, defense and lack of turnovers is complaining about him?

      • Nov 19, 201212:50 am
        by Scott Free

        Reply

        Poor example to prove a trend.  His big hang up is a poor assist to turnover ratio… well this was one of his better games in this regard… Figured he’d get a B+ for improvement (and for a point guard getting that many rebounds).   

  • Nov 18, 20129:07 am
    by Dan

    Reply

    im trying to understand what this team’s defensive and offensive systems are supposed to be. At this point it seems to be ‘everyone do what you are good at’ ( with push on hard work and fundamentals). Oh and the isos for Tay, which give him ok stats on good nights but still slows down the team. 

    My view- Dial down complexity so the guys can play your system. And cut down the rotation. I’d sit Tay and Corey, move JJ to exclusively play at the 3. 

     

  • Nov 18, 201210:25 am
    by Raphael

    Reply

    This coach refushe’s to make adjustments. The only reason the starting line up changed is because Stuckey was sick and he requested to come off the bench. The second unit should be stucky, English, in the back court. Bynum shouldn’t get the mounted he’s been getting.  

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