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Joe Dumars: It’s not Lawrence Frank’s job to get young players up to speed

David Mayo of MLive’s Q&A with Joe Dumars:

Q: [Lawrence Frank’s'] approach seems to be coach to the top end, to the people already familiar with the system, and make every else catch up, make them sink or swim.  Are they sponging it?  Are they accelerating at the right pace?

A: "I think you have to coach like that.  I think you have to set the bar of expectations of not only how you play, but how well and how quickly you learn the system.  We don’t have a lot of time to keep going over things until somebody finally gets it.  It’s up to them to get up to speed, come in early, stay late, do whatever you’ve got to do, to get up to speed with what we’re doing."

I really hope I’m misinterpreting this, because, at face value, it’s very troubling.

Setting expectations is a great idea, but it’s extremely unwise to let young players who can’t meet the expectations fall even further behind. Player development is too important to a franchise’s success – especially one in the rebuilding stage where the Pistons are – to take such a simplistic approach.

Sometimes, you get young players who are intelligent and driven and can keep up on their own, players like Greg Monroe and Brandon Knight. Coaching those types is easy.

But more than anything, Lawrence Frank and the entire Pistons organization should be judged this season on how they develop all Detroit’s young players – especially Andre Drummond. When the Pistons drafted Drummond, I expressed concern about how they would develop him.

I’m more worried now than ever.


  • Nov 1, 201212:01 pm
    by Oracle


    You’re being a bit of a worry-wart, Dan.  He doesn’t say player’s have to do it on their own, with no coaching.  He’s saying that during the scheduled practice, they’ll move at a certain pace.  Coaches won’t hold certain players later, or call them in earlier.  If a player chooses, of his own volition, to “come in early, stay late,” then I’m certain that the coaching staff will help them.  The message here is “motivated players will be fine, the coaches will help them every step of the way.  Players who don’t care, we aren’t going to drag you along by the hand.”

  • Nov 1, 201212:16 pm
    by bugsygod


    I very much agree with this appoach, its similar to in college.  The professor doesnt teach to the less informed or to the person who is not understanding.  The professor says if you fall behind stay after for extra work.  I have been watching videos on pistons.com and this seems to be happending with player development director steve hetzel(think thats his title).  But the vidoes show after practice sitting w/ english, middleton and singler going over plays and spots they need to be. 
    HOWEVER, I am going to be the first to start the FIRE FRANK chorus if he does not start playing drummond more and more with Monroe.  Its RIDICULOUS, that we have been SCREAMING for an athletic rim protector/shot blocker and get TWO 7ft shot blockers and barely play one and inactive for the other one!  The Detroit Pistons are a better team with Drummond/Monroe in the game together.  The Rockets were running a layup line against us and Drummond gets 13minutes(ALL BACKING UP MONROE).  I mean why not play your best players together?!?!?  I think having a shotblocker will HELP the defense.  Im also tired of the worries/concerns over doing damage to Drummond’s mental if he does not play well.  He has been playing well and making an impact.  In last nights game Frank seemed soooo reluctant to put Drummond in the game specifically in the 3rd q when Monroe picked up his 3rd foul.  Frank turned to abdenour and asked how many on Monroe, looked down the bench and left Monroe out there.  Monroe then picks up his 4th foul!  So now that Monroe has to come out and now he has foul trouble. 
    I will be monitoring Frank for his flexibilty.  I can see now why the Nets had that long losing streak when Frank was the coach.  He is not flexible!  If they are finishing uncontested at the rim, PUT IN YOUR RIM PROTECTOR!  Why continue to be an undersized team??  SMDH!  He played the other rookies significant minutes, but Drummond(who you really needed) less than in the preseason.
    keep the same starters, but bring in drummond for max and jonas for prince, then when monroe needs to come out put in singler,  so then drummnd, jonas singler at that point.  this gives drummond more minutes and with monroe.  lesses princes minutes as well(which is not bad LOL)

    • Nov 1, 20122:02 pm
      by Keith


      The professor comparison is totally bunk. The players aren’t paying Frank to be there and it isn’t a question of attitude. The players are being paid to be there, Frank’s very existence is based on their abilities. He cannot just sit around teaching the ones that want to learn. We need young guys to develop to win anything, and Frank is payer to make that happen.

      • Nov 1, 20122:37 pm
        by RationalSportsFan


        I also do not like this analogy.  As a professor, if one of my worst students had the opportunity to become one of my best and make the university millions of dollars, I would be catering the class toward helping him/her reach his/her potential.

        • Nov 1, 20122:54 pm
          by bugsygod


          you would be a failed professor and obviously never went to college.  That is how college is taught.

          • Nov 1, 20123:06 pm
            by Keith

            Fair or not, this isn’t college. This isn’t anything like college. The kids aren’t showing up because they want to, they are showing up because they get paid. A professor doesn’t get fired if his students fail to learn, a coach does. College is based on the idea of people wanting and paying to learn something. The NBA is about being incredibly talented and payed to sell tickets.

          • Nov 2, 20121:09 am
            by BIGMARV

            I put it like this coaches coach players play I use to be a player and it does take additonal pratice to get better. But it has to be in the player to get that hunger in himself which means more workouts and more time in the film room by himself you always heard that from the greast players that played the game they put in the extra time to get better thats what Drummond will have to understand I think his closest teamates will school him on that its not up to Frank its on the player.

      • Nov 1, 20122:56 pm
        by bugsygod


        No the TEAM is paying Frank.  Gores is paying to him to win, if a player is not picking up the scemes/systems sorry, but he gets left behind.  These are MF’n grown ass men and they cant be responsible for there own learning??  they cant be responsible to stay after practice??  WTF, kinda team yall want here?  Slow down the WHOLE team because middleton is not picking up the system?  Thats sounds ludicruos.

        • Nov 1, 20123:09 pm
          by Keith


          I don’t think we’re much worried about Middleton, we’re worried about Drummond. Drummond is a 19 year old KID, not a MF’n grown man who has lived a hard life and learned hard lessons. Moreover, this isn’t LIFE, this is the NBA – a business based on entertainment. I want a team that wins, and you don’t win playing a bunch of crappy veterans who know the system. You win with talent and fitting pieces – two things our current coaching seems to have forgotten.

  • Nov 1, 201212:54 pm
    by Tom Y.


    Drummond has to play at least about 20 minutes (barring foul trouble etc.), and play at least around 10 with Monroe, preferably more. They are both better when they are together and the team is better, plus it’s the way to develop their chemistry for the future. It’s also better for Drummond’s development – Monroe will get him some baskets every game and this will help get his confidence up.

    If Drummond makes mistakes like not boxing out or blowing defensive assignments, than yeah, it may be educational to bench him, but explain why and then give him another chance! He can get confused out there, and just punishing him isn’t going to make it better.

    I think if the team ruins Drummond’s development it will really be too much for me as a Pistons fan. Can’t see myself picking another team, maybe I’ll have to start watching hockey or something.

  • Nov 1, 20121:00 pm
    by Patrick Hayes


    “maybe I’ll have to start watching hockey or something.”

    Don’t do it. The Pistons could win 10 games a year and it would still be superior to being a hockey fan. 

    • Nov 1, 20121:25 pm
      by Keith


      Why the hate, Pat? What did the NHL ever do to you, except constantly make stupid league decisions and get run into the ground by its owners…

      • Nov 1, 20121:34 pm
        by Patrick Hayes


        Haha, I was brought up in a household full of hockey hate. Not sure where it stemmed from. But I’m obstinate like Rip Hamilton and not changing.

        • Nov 1, 20122:35 pm
          by Keith


          Fair enough, I played a lot as a kid and in school, so I’m equally biased the other way.

    • Nov 1, 20126:52 pm
      by MNM


      and the fact that the NHL is on strike, so there is no hockey to watch… It doesn’t make a difference to me anyway, because the NHL or maybe the Red Wings apparently don’t believe in promoting themselves. Much of the time I don’t even realize they are playing unless I happen to flip through the channels and stumble upon it. At least with the Pistons, Im hearing commercials on the radio, seeing commercials on tv, adds pop up on the internet sometimes.. They make sure you don’t forget what night they are playing, what time, and what team… Hockey..?  I thought it would change once Tom Wilson went over there, but apparently not.

  • Nov 1, 20121:20 pm
    by Michelob Mike


    “I’m more worried now than ever”
    lol jesus fucking christ

  • Nov 1, 20121:25 pm
    by Nate


    Drummond needs to play alongside Monroe so that he can get the in-game mentorship he needs. Think about working in an office, would you rather work on a presentation with a senior person so that you can get game experience with someone talented, or just fill in for them when they’re out sick? 

    Joe D and Frank need to realize Drummond needs minutes and he’s going to do a lot of dumb things on the court because well, he’s 19. But, the only way to battle through those mistakes is to give him ample playing time alongside the best player on the team.  

  • Nov 1, 20121:42 pm
    by Keith


    I actually mentioned this exact issue about this exact article last week. If it’s not Frank’s job to get the players that NEED coaching up to speed, what the f**k is he pretending to do out there? He’s certainly not playing our best players, creating lineups that actually work, or making smart in-game adjustments. If his only job is to teach people who already know what their doing, why don’t we just get rid of him and save the money?
    Seriously, a coach’s entire job is to coach. Either he’s doing a terrible job (our starters aren’t very good), or he needs to start coaching the guys who still have something to learn.

    • Nov 1, 20121:56 pm
      by ds


      I took Joe’s comment a little different. I think he means that Frank can’t coach to the lowest common denominator – he has to coach the team. If one player falls behind then it’s up to THEM to catch up. The coach can’t stop coaching everyone else to help one person. For the most part I agree with this, though it isn’t black and white.

      I could be wrong, but that’s how I interpreted it. 

      • Nov 1, 20122:34 pm
        by Keith


        And hopefully I’m just misinterpreting it. It’s just, even coaching the way you say can be unproductive. If Frank expects to be coaching here more than another year or two, he has to realize Drummond and the rookies are his only chance. This team will NEVER get ANYWHERE based on how well Tayshaun Prince or Jason Maxiell know the system. The future of this team has little to do with any of our veterans, even Stuckey.
        So for the philosophy to be “leave people behind” instead of “coach the guys who need coaching, the vets don’t need babysitting” is still pretty dumb. I think the main difference between our approaches what we would consider to be “the lowest common denominator.” In my case, I think the lowest level is anyone who is not important to the team, regardless of skill and system savvy. Leaving Drummond, or English, or Singler behind because they don’t pick up the plays on day one is like trying to pass a college course with high school knowledge – you can get 100% on all the early quizzes, but you’re going to fail the class if you never learn anything new.

        • Nov 1, 20123:08 pm
          by ds


          I don’t disagree – but to play devils advocate for a minute. 

          These guys are supposed to push themselves as much as they can every day. They are trying to become the best in the world. So you need to reward success, not cater to failure. I don’t want Drummond (the easiest example here), to think that to organization is going to bend over backwards to spoon feed him information. If he feels entitled to special attention, it could really derail things for him and the organization. 

          • Nov 1, 20123:22 pm
            by Keith

            Great point, but to go further, what should be rewarded? Do you play a worse player just because he knows the system better? Do you play a better player even if he’s lazy and entitled?
            There are a lot of interesting contrasts in the NBA. Josh Smith is way more athletic than Kevin Love, but Love is a way better basketball player. Steve Nash is a way smarter and more skilled basketball player than Russell Westbrook, but Russell Westbrook is a considerably better player because of how freakish his athleticism is.
            So who and what is really being rewarded by playing Maxiell over Drummond? The team is playing an inferior player and likely holding back Drummond’s development. Is Maxiell’s better understanding of the system but inferior ability to work within it really a benefit? And who is to say Drummond isn’t working just as hard as Max? What does it say to Drummond that working hard and playing better still doesn’t get him minutes or shots? What incentive does he have to keep working if his coach never rewards his actual play?

          • Nov 1, 20123:41 pm
            by ds

            @Keith – for some reason it won’t let me reply to your post.

            Very good points, and I have no interest in defending so little PT for Drummond. I was talking about coaching attention, but IMO Drummond should play more and Prince should play less.

            It seems that good coaches need to have a sense of what individuals respond to – it’s not one size fits all. It’s bad if players feel they are entitled, but it’s also bad if players don’t think they’ll get their shot no matter what they do.


          • Nov 1, 20124:06 pm
            by Keith

            @ds, yeah, I think this comments system only allows for a certain number of sub-replies.
            And I agree with you. Some young guys don’t need much coaching, they know what they need and go out and do it. Some guys need a lot of coaching, maybe because they aren’t very skill initially or maybe they just never received much coaching to that point. The Drummond PT is dumb, but maybe I’m wrong and it’s what Drummond needs. I guess I have to hope so because Frank seems pretty resistant to change.
            But the very idea that it is not the coach’s job to get people up to speed seems patently false. That’s EXACTLY a coach’s job. If a player isn’t responding, you try a different tactic. If they refuse to learn, let them go. But everything we’ve heard has been about our young guys being hard workers, coachable, and eager to help the team. I can hope for the best version of whatever is said, but history taints my view. If it were Sam Presti saying this, I would immediately assume the positive side of an argument. But Joe D has run this team into the ground, consistently made bad coaching decisions, and has basically lied about the direction of the team for years. It’s a lot harder to hear HIM say something like that and not assume the worst.

    • Nov 1, 20123:03 pm
      by bugsygod


      So we have to slow down the whole team because Slava cant pick up the system??  Where have you been because you have NOT been watching the nba.  This is a GROWN MANS league.  If you cant keep up you get left behind.  I hope thats not your real thoughts, that you think they came in on day one and failed a quiz??  Because that sounds dumb.  The rookies have been there for over a month before training camp and somebody STILL cant pick up the system?  So what if the guy doesnt want to learn or is not trying, do we hold his hand and walk step by step??  FUCK NO!  How would monroe feel after working his ass off all summer, learned the system, but cant move forward because singler dont know what he is doing?  What kind of dumb sense do that make.  NO you wait see if singler wants to stay after practice and learn.  I swear you new pistons fans are some P***y’s.  Wanna baby somebody, get the F out here with that.  You either roll or get rolled over.

      • Nov 1, 20123:16 pm
        by Keith


        Win or lose, those are the only words that matter. If babying Drummond and holding his hand turns him into the next Dwight, I couldn’t care less about your false bravado. I don’t know how old you are, but you obviously have no idea what it is to be a 19-21 year old. Maybe you knew everything at that age, but most EVERYONE else does not. If everyone in the league should just put on their man pants and figure it out, we wouldn’t have coaches, busts, or draft gems.
        Also, guess what, hard work isn’t always enough. Just look at our team? Are they a bunch of lazy losers who aren’t picking up the system? Because they still aren’t a good team. Every indication and resource has said our young guys are highly coachable and hard workers. If they aren’t picking up the system at that point, they probably aren’t being taught very well.

        • Nov 1, 20126:27 pm
          by bugsygod


          WIN OR LOSE!!  that says its all, so why would frank(whose getting paid to win) slow down the progress of winning??  who said it was drummond behind??  he seemed to be ahead of the curve for most of the preseason.  and sorry dude in this world/country etc 19 is a GROWN ASS MAN!  I got a job at 18 and have gotten up for work for the last 20 yrs!  So what would make drummond different from me?? or anyone that begins working at a young age.  He cant stay after practice?  He cant go to practice early?  I guess i dont get your point or what your saying…”hold his hand?”  come on dude who wants a player like that.  I want go getters!
          Finally who said anyone was behind???  Where there names of the supposed “behind” players?  The only rookie who looks behind is Slava and i think a lot of that is the change in culture from coming from a new country.  So until you can point to me where frank is not coaching sumbody up…. 

  • Nov 1, 20122:03 pm
    by Edgar


    I think the problem is that “bar of expectations” Joe D referred to. I think it’s fine to pay lip service to making the playoffs and winning as many games as possible, etc., but hopefully there’s a more accurate internal assessment of this team’s “bar of expectations.” Setting the bar high for young guys and making them catch up to that bar in practice is fine for contending teams. If Perry Jones can’t catch up to OKC’s system, then too bad for him. OKC can afford to have him not live up to expectations. But, Detroit isn’t OKC. We NEED our young players, especially Drummond, to live up to their potential and being inflexible about player development is a luxury we can’t afford. All that said, I suspect Joe D is just talking tough.

    • Nov 1, 20122:20 pm
      by frankie d


      “All that said, I suspect Joe D is just talking tough.”
      wish that were true.  unfortunately, what has happened with the team and its young players over the last few years seems to fall exactly in line with that style of coaching.  and it explains why frank would play a worn-out retread like damian wilkins while keeping young players on the bench.
      unfortunately, dumars’ words confirm my worst fears about frank and that aspect of his coaching philosophy.
      never been a frank fan and this just makes me less comfortable with him as the coach of a team that is supposedly rebuilding. 

      • Nov 1, 20124:58 pm
        by Chris N


        “…unfortunately, what has happened with the team and its young players over the last few years seems to fall exactly in line with style of coaching and it explains why Frank would play a worn-out retread like Damian Wilkins (sic) while keeping young players on the bench.”

        The young players that were kept on the bench in favor of the likes of Damien Wilkins are 1) a big man that is currently no longer in the NBA, 2) an undersized stretch four who shot nearly twenty-three percent from the field and provided little else,  and (if we’re counting Walker Russell) 3) a 30 year old point guard that similarly could not shoot the rock.

        Conversely, Gren Monroe played thirty-one minutes a game last year and the rookie guard Brandon Knight played thirty-two.  Jonas Jerebko played nearly twenty-three minutes a game and Rodney Stuckey played around thirty minutes a game, and likely would have played more had he not been so oft-injured.

        You’re really going to go after Lawrence Frank for keeping young players on the bench last year?

        • Nov 1, 20125:34 pm
          by frankie d


          wilkins was just the latest in a long line of retreads who have stolen PT from young players.
          and yes, i would have preferred that macklin and daye and jerebko and even a SG like gordon have received every minute of the PT that wilkins got.
          macklin and daye may have established some type of trade value.  (who knows, maybe daye could have even roused himself out of his season-long slump.)  smart teams like houston acquire and develop young players so that they can turn around and trade them, if they don’t fit their team.  macklin showed fairly well during his limited PT.  daye could have been traded, apparently, but he would have been dumped for nothing last year, as teams were apparently eager to raid get a talent like daye on the cheap.  if both those young players had been given more and regular PT, who knows how much greater their value in the league would have been.  it certainly could not have been worse.
          jerebko? why couldn’t he have gotten his minutes up to 28-30 per game, which could have happened if wilkins was not clogging up the rotation.  it’s not as though JJ is incapable of logging those numbers.  his stats dwarf wilkins pitiful numbers.  why on god’s earth would anyone have preferred seeing wilkins stumble around the court, rather than have JJ out there for another 7+ minutes?
          the same case could be made for gordon.  gordon’s offensive numbers dwarfed wilkins’ and he could have often helped the team by being out there for longer stretches.    on a team that desperately needed outside shooting, gordon got only 10 shots a game, while shooting 43% from 3 point range. while gordon is no defensive stopper, neither was wilkins, whose primary positive was the he was at least in the proper place at the appropriate time, even if he got abused while he occupied that space.  he was the coach’s security blanket.  when they looked at game tape, he’d always see that wilkins was at least carrying out his assignment correctly, even while opposing players torched him.
          i would have rather seen gordon at least have the potential to score right back.
          all of those guys could have at least provided something.  possibly.  from increased trade value – macklin, daye – to on-court contributions –  JJ and gordon – the players wilkins took time away from could have added something to the franchise’s future.
          exactly what did wilkins contribute, other than giving frank a warm and fuzzy feeling when he watched game tape?

  • Nov 1, 20124:13 pm
    by Ray


    I’ll say it…DARKO!

    This feels like Darko all over again…the biggest difference is we are nothing close to a championship team….and No Ben Wallace and No Rasheed Wallace playing in front of him ….No corliss playing in front of him…and No Larry Brown!

    • Nov 1, 20124:37 pm
      by Chris N


      Ray are you saying that if the Pistons had force fed Darko minutes, he would have developed into a different player?  

      Are you saying that the Pistons should force feed Andre Drummond minutes now?  

      He played twelve minutes last night and wasn’t particularly effective doing so.  I don’t know that eight minutes more would have turned things around-perhaps they would have but I don’t think so.  I do think if he’d been more productive with the twelve minutes he had when he was out on the floor that he probably would have seen a few more minutes last night.

      I think that Drummond is an immensely gifted young player who can be really effective in spurts and not effective in others.  But he’s still going through the process of being a rookie in the NBA.  He’s still learning what he’s got to do to get himself out on the floor and keep himself there for sustained stretches.  Last night, he didn’t do that.  Maxiell played a better game.  Drummond will get another shot on Friday.

  • Nov 1, 20126:15 pm
    by tarsier


    We can argue about what was meant by the comment. But ultimately, I think everyone agrees that as coach, it is Frank’s (and his staff’s) job to help develop the team. Both those who take more and less time to “get it”. However, it is not his job, and in fact would be counter productive, to stymie the development of the entire team to help out one player who is struggling.

  • Nov 1, 20126:23 pm
    by Desolation Row


    Start Drummond. Start JJ. Start the future already. I didn’t pay for NBA League Pass out here on the West Coast to see Jason Maxiell play for his next contract. 

    I’m all for rigid “systems” when they work. Dumars’ hasn’t. It’s time he made some ch-ch-changes — turn and face the strain.


    • Nov 2, 201210:18 am
      by sebastian


      Desolation Row, I hear you man about the League Pass subscription. Personally, I am using the free trial week, before I decide on getting this season’s subscription.
      If OUR Pistons play anything like they did on Wednesday night, in Phoenix, LA, and Denver, then I am not going to spend my pennies on it.

  • Nov 2, 20128:35 am
    by XstreamINsanity


    I find some truth to that, but not much.  I think if Khris Middleton wanted to go in and workout on the team’s day off, any of the coaches would be willing to be there and help him out.  Same goes for any of the young cats.  I think what he was trying to say is that Frank (and the entire coaching staff) can’t “make” a determined team.  Joe wants players who want to play and specifically who want to play to their best potential and are determined to get there.  If you have someone that has talent but doesn’t want to practice hard or put in extra work, well that takes you back to someone…

    “We’re talking about practice?”

    Some players think that they can just go in the game and get 20 points a night.  Aside from those extremely physically gifted athletes, nobody can do that, not without chucking up a crap load of shots.  And those extremely physically gifted athletes didn’t just get that way by eating Wheaties in the morning and going to mandatory practice.  They put in the extra time to go to the gym and lift, to get up extra shots, to run long distances to build endurance, and to learn the playbook.

    If you have players on a team that aren’t willing to put in the work out of the actual game, then you shouldn’t want those players on your team.  You want players who want to be better and put in the extra work to do so, especially if they’re behind.  That’s what the point was of his message.

    But I can see the flip side also.  Andre Drummond needs to learn to block out better.  You can practice and preach that some in practice, but if he needs more help, because of his vast potential, you may need to push him.  There’s a fine line.  It’s not all Frank’s responsibility, but it partly is. 

  • Nov 2, 201211:18 am
    by MarkButter


    Joe is exactly right.  You don’t wait for the slowest player/student to catch up to the other 14/29 stutdents to catch up.  Why hold the other 14/29 back?  It makes no sense.

    The other thing is, we did that exact thing with Darko.  Obviously the circumstances are a bit different and being able to crack the rotation.  But I think it led to a bit of Darko’s play, not having played and everyone just “waiting” on him.   He didn’t think there was no “rush” because he wasn’t going to crack the lineup.  Now, playing for LB vs. Frank is different, but you raise the bar.

    Finally, this is their job.  You start a new job as a fresh employee or new grad, businesses don’t “wait” for you to catch up.  That’s the reason they hired you, to step in and get moving.  If you’re not playing this or that guy right now because he “might” hurt you, what’s to say he won’t “hurt” you later down the road.  Now, with NFL blocking schemes, calls, etc., your left tackle better know what’s going on or your QB will get killed.  I understand that, but that’s the exception.

    We’re NOT a play or missed rebound away from winning a chip.  Errors will happen.  I’d rather have them learned in the first quarter than become evident in the 4th.

    Finally, play Drummond.  Monroe & Knight are young enough to be able to relate to Drummond about staying late, arriving early, off-season workouts, etc.  Having Knight or Monroe bark at Drummond on the way down the court will do more for us as a team and for Drummond as a player than either Frank or Prince doing the same.  If Knight and Monroe are the leaders we belive them to be, it will work itself out.  If not, then we were wrong about knight/monroe more than Frank.

    Did I forget to mention to play Drummond?  He’ll adjust his game, and more importantly learn to adjust his game by playing (i.e., officials, the speed, etc.)  There’s NEVER been a way to imitate in practice, regardless of the sport, game speed.  Calling TO in practice to go over a missed assignment pales in comparison to barking at someone during the game. 

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