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Dominant shot-blockers Kyle Singler and Greg Monroe not enough to lead Pistons past Rockets

Detroit Pistons 82 FinalRecap | Box Score 96 Houston Rockets
Jason Maxiell, PF 19 MIN | 3-6 FG | 0-0 FT | 4 REB | 0 AST | 6 PTS | 0After a poor game against the Thunder last night, Maxiell was back to his reliable self. He wasn’t good, wasn’t bad. Solid rotation minutes.
Tayshaun Prince, SF 30 MIN | 6-9 FG | 0-0 FT | 6 REB | 3 AST | 13 PTS | -6Prince got off to a good start with eight early points, but couldn’t really sustain it. He shot the ball well and, early on, his length on defense was bothersome to James Harden.
Greg Monroe, C 32 MIN | 4-10 FG | 4-4 FT | 11 REB | 1 AST | 12 PTS | -8As tarsier pointed out in the comments, Monroe has suddenly become a pretty decent shot-blocker. It’s still a small sample size, but with two tonight, he’s averaging more than a block per game through seven games. That’s certainly better than he’s shown his previous two seasons.
Brandon Knight, PG 35 MIN | 6-10 FG | 2-2 FT | 4 REB | 7 AST | 16 PTS | +3Knight shot well, passed well and defended Jeremy Lin well. His five turnovers are the only thing that prevents this from being an A.
Rodney Stuckey, PG 29 MIN | 4-12 FG | 0-0 FT | 2 REB | 2 AST | 8 PTS | -17Stuckey continues to seriously cut down his 3-point attempts. And by ‘cut down,’ I mean ‘never shoot them ever.’
Austin Daye, PF 6 MIN | 2-2 FG | 0-0 FT | 1 REB | 0 AST | 5 PTS | +9Austin Daye got in in garbage time and knocked down both of his shots, including a three. He is far out of the rotation, so minutes aren’t a guarantee for him. But tonight, unlike many times last season, when he got a brief chance, he made the most of it. And the Pistons still need someone who can shoot, so if he can get going, even someone who has struggled as much as he has can never fully be counted out of this rotation.
Jonas Jerebko, PF 16 MIN | 3-12 FG | 0-0 FT | 4 REB | 1 AST | 8 PTS | -18Jerebko shot a little too much from the perimeter for my liking, but Jerebko continues to be great defensively, particularly at forcing turnovers. He had two steals in 16 minutes tonight. He came into the game averaging 2.3 per 36 minutes, which is already a great number that will only increase after tonight’s performance.
Charlie Villanueva, PF 9 MIN | 1-5 FG | 0-2 FT | 2 REB | 1 AST | 3 PTS | +7He shot poorly but two rebounds! In just nine minutes! That’s eight per 36 minutes! A respectable number for a near 7-footer! Progress!
Kyle Singler, SF 23 MIN | 0-5 FG | 0-0 FT | 3 REB | 0 AST | 0 PTS | -21Singler was bad this game, but glancing at his line, he had four (!) blocked shots. I thought that was a fluke, but looking at his per-36 minutes numbers, he’s averaging more than a block per-36. I don’t think it’s a fluke, watching some of his plays tonight. He’s obviously not a guy who is going to jump out of the gym and erase shots at the rim like Drummond. But his slowness on the perimeter actually helps him get blocks. He gets beaten on first steps pretty often on perimeter players, but he’s athletic enough and long enough that he recovers well and is really good at sneaking over the top of shorter players who beat him and getting a hand on their shots.
Khris Middleton, SF 9 MIN | 1-3 FG | 2-2 FT | 0 REB | 0 AST | 4 PTS | +7Middleton saw his first action tonight and he was also promising, particularly his two steals. I don’t think there’s a rotation spot that he could push forwith the roster as it is, but he’s quick in passing lanes and his shot still looks nice.
Andre Drummond, C 20 MIN | 2-2 FG | 3-6 FT | 7 REB | 0 AST | 7 PTS | -9The Pistons, including Drummond, struggled to keep the very active Omer Asik off the glass. Drummond whiffed a couple times in the first half trying to get a body on Asik, one of which led to an offensive rebound, but that’s not a huge deal. Drummond continues to be the team’s second best big man and obviously is ready for more than the limited backup role he’s playing. Hopefully returning home and getting extra practice time is the final push Frank needs to ratchet up Drummond’s minutes. Hopefully.
Will Bynum, PG 13 MIN | 0-4 FG | 0-0 FT | 1 REB | 2 AST | 0 PTS | -17Bynum didn’t shoot well and didn’t play with much energy in this game. He did, weirdly, also block a shot tonight in a game in which the Pistons blocked nine.
Lawrence Frank, HEAD COACH I was happy Frank went to the Drummond-Monroe combo in the first half and disappointed he didn’t go back to it in the second half, although I think the game quickly getting out of hand and Frank just wanting to end this disaster of a road trip played a role in that. Frank didn’t coach a great game tonight, but the Pistons did have a better gameplan against Lin, putting Prince on Harden more in the first half worked OK for stretches and he gets a bit of credit for those things.

Monroe/Drummond watch

After last night’s successful Monroe/Drummond pairing, Lawrence Frank went back to it in the first half tonight. Monroe and Drummond played four minutes together in the second quarter. The results weren’t as dynamic as they were last night, but still … Drummond and Monroe were obviously two of Detroit’s best five players tonight. So logically, it makes no sense that they’d play only four minutes together. Rationalizing a little, Frank did empty the bench in the fourth quarter and gave Daye, Villanueva and Middleton a crack at some extended playing time, so maybe if Houston hadn’t gone on a 22-1 run in the third and fourth quarters, they would’ve played more together. At least that’s what I’m telling myself so that this phenomenon doesn’t drive me crazy.

The defense has potential

Drummond getting  a significant role is obviously key to this, but the Pistons had other small positives defensively in this game. Knight’s individual defense on Lin was good. Knight is a guard with the quickness, length, smarts and size to be a good defensive player. For whatever reason so far in his career, he just hasn’t been. Hopefully tonight is a step towards him figuring that out.

Jerebko is a terror in the passing lanes. He’s constantly causing deflections and getting steals, which is a case to get him more minutes. The Pistons are awful as a halfcourt team. Steals lead to transition opportunities, and the Pistons could definitely use the easy shots.

Prince isn’t a lockdown, all-defense team type of player anymore, but as he showed for stretches in the first half against Harden, he’s still smart and bothersome on D and his length can still cause guys to take shots they’re less comfortable with.

Monroe has blocked five shots in his last two games. The Pistons as a team are averaging six per game, which puts them in the top half of the league. Collectively, the Pistons have a lot of good defensive tools — guys with long arms, fast guys, a point guard who has good size for his position and a prototypical young shot blocker who should be anchoring things soon. Very soon. Please soon.

The offense doesn’t

This probably won’t go over well in the comments, but I’m essentially giving Frank a pass this season when it comes to offense. He just doesn’t have the tools for this team to succeed offensively. With no one who is an elite 3-point shooter, teams have zero reason to pay attention to Pistons players on the perimeter. Pretend you’re an opposing coach. Name one guy the Pistons could put on the floor who you would worry about leaving if it meant you could throw extra defenders at Monroe. In fact, there are guys on the Pistons who are way too comfortable taking shots they have no business taking (looking in Stuckey’s direction) that Houston was all but begging the Pistons to shoot threes tonight.

Someone commented in the game thread that the Pistons look like they moved away from using Monroe as the ‘hub’ of the offense. That’s not really true. Houston just took it away. Monroe attempted 10 shots. He attempted four free throws. He turned it over four times and had an assist. That all translates to Monroe having the ball in his hands quite a bit, looking to make plays. The Rockets had defenders sagging off of perimeter players onto him all game long. Without shooters to make defenders pay for cheating, this will be a frequent and successful strategy against the Pistons this season. The Pistons are making 35 percent of their threes as a team, a respectable number. But when you consider that many of those threes are uncontested, it’s not that impressive. The lack of perimeter threats on the team will continue to be something that Frank can do little about and it will continue to hurt the spacing necessary to make the team’s offense more fluid.

I expect the Pistons to be a bad offensive team this season. I’ll measure Frank’s success/failure as a coach by how much better the defense gets and how much he plays Drummond.

 

161 Comments

  • Nov 10, 201211:20 pm
    by HIRE MIKE BROWN

    Reply

    It bothers me that we found something that was working, and then tonight its like Frank just said…lets try something else and see what happens…

    in 6 of the 7 games we have been playing from behind 

    • Nov 10, 201211:27 pm
      by Mark

      Reply

      Agreed. Bynum is still awful btw. It appears he fooled everybody in the preseason with his uncharacteristcally unselfish passes to Drummond, because I’m not sure I’ve seen him pass it ONE time to Drummond yet in the reg season.

      Our whole offense with him in the game appears to be: Bigs set screens so he can play streetball with himself.

      We had a willing and unselfish playmaker, who rebounded and played good perimeter defense in Williams – basically everything we are lacking from our guards – and we chose Willi freaking Bynum over him.

       

      • Nov 10, 201211:50 pm
        by Patrick Hayes

        Reply

        “I’m not sure I’ve seen him pass it ONE time to Drummond yet in the reg season.”

        http://www.pistonpowered.com/2012/11/video-andre-drummond-getting-back-to-his-forte-throwing-down-a-lob-against-the-denver-nuggets/

        Bynum is averaging 6.3 assists per 36 minutes and leads the team in assist percentage at 34.2 percent. Maybe you’re just not watching closely enough? 

        • Nov 10, 201211:56 pm
          by ryan

          Reply

          Agreed. Will Bynum has has some solid games and he’s been looking for Monroe. Bynum is limited but his effort is there and that I appreciate.

        • Nov 11, 20121:32 am
          by Mark

          Reply

          ok, so he passed to him once. lol

          • Nov 11, 20121:36 am
            by Patrick Hayes

            He’s obviously assisted Drummond much more than just once this season. that’s just the only one I have video of handy.

          • Nov 11, 201211:16 am
            by tarsier

            Game 1 vs HOU: Bynum assists Drummond on his only basket
            Game 2 vs PHX: Bynum does not assist Drummond (neither did anyone else and one of his two baskets was a put back)
            Game 3 vs LAL: Bynum assists Drummond once (his other basket was a put back)
            Game 4 vs DEN: Bynum assists Drummond twice (his other basket was a desperation 3)

            Those two haven’t connected quite as much since then. But through four games, Bynum had four assists to Drummond (to zero by the rest of the team combined) on his total of 8 field goals.

          • Nov 11, 20123:12 pm
            by Mark

            4 assists to him in 4 games? Is that supposed to be a good thing? Thats terrible if you ask me

          • Nov 11, 20125:04 pm
            by tarsier

            I guess it’s good nobody asked you because what you had to say is terribly ignorant. To quote Gregg Popovich, “Geez oh whiz”.

            1 assist per game from your starting PG to your starting C would not be great, but it wouldn’t be terrible either. Assuming your starting PG passed the ball around relatively fairly to all, he probably spends about as much time on the floor with each other starter and enough on the time with miscellaneous bench players to work out to being about two more guys. So, just spitballing, that would work out to 6 apg–even not accounting for the fact that in today’s NBA basically every other position scores more than C.

            But now let’s put it in context.

            Obviously, neither Bynum nor Drummond is a starter. And you do realize, don’t you, that it is a very outstanding PG in this league who averages 1 assist per game per teammate. Particularly when you have a duo like Bynum/Drummond, neither of whom has seen a whole lot of playing time? When is Bynum supposed to be setting Drummond up? When they’re both sitting on the bench? The two of them have played a grand total of 79:36 together. I don’t have game by game breakdowns of PT together, but that comes out to about 11:14 per game. And again, when Bynum is playing the point, his job isn’t to set up Drummond, it’s to score or set up any of his teammates. So if he is getting one assist per 11:14 he is on the floor to any given player, that is excellent. That would put him on pace for 12.66 assists per 36 minutes. So what exactly are you complaining about? I bet under half the teams in the league have a single duo (having played at least 48:00 together) averaging a better assist rate. Granted, that is only in the first four games. And that–I believe we have no established we can call it torrid–pace has not held up over the last three. But if you want to keep complaining about this, please bring some data to the table yourself to support the notion that Bynum-Drummond has been underperforming instead of taking a cursory look at that which I provide, assessing it completely out of context, and providing ever so well-articulated (sarcasm) remarks as “That’s terrible if you ask me”.

            Furthermore, as I established in my initial comment, Drummond has hardly been scoring a lot. Maybe if Bynum looked for him more, he would more often. But if Bynum had 4 assists to Drummond while the rest of the team combined had 0, you can hardly put that all on Bynum.

  • Nov 10, 201211:25 pm
    by Nate

    Reply

    Where’s Lawrence Frank’s grade? I’d give him an F for not playing Monroe and Drummond together hardly at all, and putting Charlie V in at the end over Drummond. Wasting minutes on a player who will be gone soon makes a lot more sense than giving them to your rookie big man who’s played very efficiently this year and has insane per 36 numbers.

    • Nov 10, 201211:28 pm
      by Mark

      Reply

      An F would be to generous. He deserves a G-

      • Nov 10, 201211:40 pm
        by Vince

        Reply

        He should be fired. I’ve seen coaches get fired for less.

        • Nov 10, 201211:49 pm
          by Stuckey and Whoever

          Reply

          Mike Brown

          • Nov 10, 201211:58 pm
            by Vince

            Saunders/O’Brien/D’Antoni/Both Van Gundys… All of which – except for Saunders – I think are better than Frank at this point.

          • Nov 10, 201211:59 pm
            by Vince

            Hell, I’d take Del Negro. 

          • Nov 11, 201212:02 am
            by Patrick Hayes

            @Vince:

            All of those guys were also coaches of teams that had significant expectations, which this current Pistons team doesn’t have. Dumars, Gores, everyone who would make that decision has said over and over that improvement over the course of a season is the goal. They’re not firing Frank after seven games. 

          • Nov 11, 201212:09 am
            by Vince

            Patrick, I’ll just rehash what I just told Ryan, I know it won’t happen, and I know all those coaches had high expectations with their current team, but to some respect don’t the Pistons? This was a team that was labelled as an intriguing prospect coming into the season, words like “playoff contention” “.500 basketball” “bright future” were thrown around and its been the complete opposite. 

            The Pistons won’t fire Frank, thats a given, I’m just really pissed the coaching isn’t consistent and this team is looking like it could compete for the Bobcat’s record from last year.

            (Bobcats who’ve got more wins than us with a crappier roster and a first-year coach) 

          • Nov 11, 201212:19 am
            by tarsier

            Patrick, I agree that the Pistons won’t fire Frank for 7 bad games. And they shouldn’t fire him for losing those games. But yeah, right now is all about improvement. Failing to play your best hope for a “lineup of the future” does not bring improvement.

            I don’t care about the record, but he is coaching terribly for player development. If that does not change, he should be fired. I don’t understand how one could argue against that.

          • Nov 11, 201212:25 am
            by Patrick Hayes

            The Bobcats hired a coach and told him specifically his job is player development. Rich Cho and Jordan both said as much when he was hired. They sought an unknown guy who specialized in working with young players and that’s what they hired him to do.

            Now compare that to the mixed messages the organization has sent out and try to imagine being in Lawrence Frank’s situation for a minute. You are working for a GM with a notoriously quick trigger when it comes to firing coaches, even successful ones. That person has overseen firings that have been pretty acrimonious — Brown, Saunders, Curry and Kuester all left on fairly bad terms. When Rip Hamilton and Michael Curry butted heads, Dumars fired Curry. When things went bad in the locker room for Kuester, even going as far as a public boycott/mutiny, Dumars never offered as much as a public statement backing the coach in that situation. 

            You’re working for a new team owner who has said he’d like to make the playoffs. You’re working for a GM who has talked about a long range plan/player development, but also echoed those ‘we want to win’ type of comments the owner made.

            If you’re coaching under those circumstances, I really feel like that’s not setting up a coach for success. In Charlotte, that coach knows exactly what he’s being evaluated on and so does the public. Frank has nowhere near that advantage here.

            And all that being said, he’s still doing a bad job. But I think it’s important to point out that others should share in that blame.

          • Nov 11, 201211:18 am
            by tarsier

            That’s fair. I honestly had not considered all of that. I see the Pistons and I see what I, and what most fans I know, want out of the team. And contending now isn’t realistic.

        • Nov 11, 201212:00 am
          by ryan

          Reply

          My question is who replaces Lawrence Frank if we fire him? We need stability so these young guys can develop firing a coach is the opposite of that. So if we’re going to fire him we need to make sure that the guy coming in next is a long term guy.

          Nate McMillan is a guy I like a lot but I don’t think that the walk it up style he had Portland playing is a good idea here. I’m also not sure how willing to adjust his style he is.

          Further if we fire Lawrence Frank it looks bad for the franchise as a whole.

          I’m not sure what the answer is but I hope Frank turns it around so we can stop discussing him.

          • Nov 11, 201212:04 am
            by Vince

            Oh dear how could I forget McMillan! Loved his stuff in Portland.

            I know it won’t happen, its detrimental to the team, and I’d rather not fire him at all, I’m just putting things in perspective, if this was any other team with this start he’d be gone. I’ll admit that any other team might have more talent and a better schedule but this start is downright scary.

            I honestly hope he does, because all he has done thus far has made me dislike him more and more. 

          • Nov 11, 201212:18 am
            by Patrick Hayes

            McMillan is a great coach. He’s also a great coach who was oft-criticized for playing limited veterans over young players, particularly burying guys like Nic Batum and Rudy Fernandez on the bench.

            I think everyone is looking at Frank out of context from the majority of coaches. The majority of NBA head coaches are mediocre or worse. The majority, even good ones, often make baffling lineup decisions because they prefer consistent mediocrity of predictable veterans to occasionally dynamic, occasionally dumb, erratic play of young, developing players.

            Frank’s decision to not play Drummond more this season has obviously been wrong and been by far the most frustrating part of an overall frustrating season. But there are plenty of coaches who would be doing the exact same thing in this situation.  It doesn’t make it right,  but if it were grounds for firing someone or whatever, it wouldn’t be such a common occurrence in the league.

          • Nov 11, 201212:20 am
            by tarsier

            It’s not grounds for firing someone when you are a team with expectations. But the Pistons aren’t. They should be all about player development.

          • Nov 11, 20123:08 am
            by frankie d

            love mcmillan, and he would have been a great hire back when detroit was in its post-larry brown phase, but he is a horrible coach for young players.  unless you are a guy like brandon roy  or aldridge, it is harder than heck for a young guy to get on the floor for nate.  one mistake and he’ll bury a young player.
            that was the big reason he got fired last year.  he just would not play his young guys like nolan smith and luke babbitt, first round choices that were sitting, collecting dust on the bench.  as soon as nate got fired, those guys started seeing regular minutes.
            again, for the right team, nate is a great coach.  but for a young team that needs to invest in and nurture young players, nate is not the coach.
            i lived in seattle when he coached the sonics and lived in portland during his entire blazers run.
            that is just his style. 

  • Nov 10, 201211:36 pm
    by Vince

    Reply

    I stopped watching midway through the third, it was too painful to watch. Quick question, is there a reason English didn’t play tonight? I was surprised to not see him come off the bench with Singler in the early going and he just sat the entire game, is he injured? Because if he isn’t what does that mean if Frank would rather play CV (good write up on him btw) Daye and Middleton ahead of him?

    Either way I’m entirely disappointed with the game, like Ray “Name Changer” Frank pointed out Frank isn’t putting together the best the team has to offer. Monroe and Drummond were great last night, and as far as I saw they only played 5 minutes together. Drummond had outperformed Maxiell in only one extra minute, and I’m pretty sure Dre’s per-36 absolutely smashes Max’s, so why is Max still starting? English is a solid three-point threat, why not play him? His rotations are wack and his situational coaching is off the charts terrible, when the bench came in during the third and ruined the 4 point gap the starters had established he didn’t flinch. First up, Drummond should’ve played with the starters at the beginning of the third, secondly, when he subbed the second unit on and they couldn’t shoot/rebound/defend and let a 4 point gap become a 17 point hole, THATS WHEN YOU CALL A TIMEOUT AND SUB STARTERS ON. Drummond and JJ can’t shoulder the offensive load when Singler can’t shoot and Bynum is a liability, thats when you sub English/Knight and Monroe on to help Drummond and JJ.

    This is becoming increasingly ridiculous. I always dismissed the idea of Frank getting fired, but at this point I would be glad to see him go if it meant this team would become somewhat consistent and was utilized to its full potential. 

    • Nov 10, 201211:44 pm
      by jjrob15

      Reply

      The issue, I think, is one of limits. The Piston roster is just limited. Limited athletically, limited shooters, limited defenders, limited talent. There is definitely a level of inconsistency with Coach Frank’s lineups, but at this point it seems like he’s testing and experimenting. Mid season is when I think they will hit their stride. 

      • Nov 10, 201211:54 pm
        by Vince

        Reply

        Thats why we have training camp and the pre-season!! You say we lack shooting, defense, athleticism and talent, well hell, we have players who offer each of those: Drummond – Monroe – Maggette – Stuckey – Knight would have scoring (Maggette, Monroe, Stuckey and Knight), defense (albeit very average), rebounding (Monroe/Drummond), athleticism (Drummond/Maggette/Stuckey) and talent (Drummond/Monroe/Knight). A second unit of Kravtsov – Jerebko – Singler – English and Bynum would provide instant offense, some athleticism, defense and rebounding. 

        You’ll notice I left out Prince and Max, for the sake of my argument we traded them for some gatorade along with CV and Daye.

        My point is, if it takes 41 games for Frank to make up his mind and stick with a set starting 5, a good bench and a consistent and good rotation, then I think we have the wrong coach. There is so much potential is this team, my intial prediction for the first 7 games was 4-3 considering all the prowess this team had shown. I’m extremely disappointed we’re at 0 – 7 and the team has only competed once or twice. Its ridiculous. We could be doing so much better.

        • Nov 11, 201212:04 am
          by jjrob15

          Reply

          The young guys are definitely playing the best, I agree. and though the teams have bits and pieces of talent, athleticism, defense, etc., those pieces are still inferior and inconsistent, and young. I think Frank trusts vets as opposed to the young guys. Is it wrong? At times, yes. But its and old school mindset, and will take time. I  thought this team would make the playoffs as an 8th seed, and i still think they have a chance. But the problem is, the team is stuck in half rebuilding- half now mode.

          • Nov 11, 201212:12 am
            by Vince

            Completely agree. I’m just annoyed because after three years of some of the worst basketball I’ve ever seen I thought we had finally turned a corner… only to have one of the worst starts in Franchise history.

  • Nov 10, 201211:37 pm
    by jjrob15

    Reply

    Hang in there; the future is very bright. The work will pay off. As Brandon Knight always says: TGBTG. 

    • Nov 10, 201211:53 pm
      by ryan

      Reply

      What is it that Brandon Knight says?

      • Nov 11, 201212:05 am
        by jjrob15

        Reply

        To God be the glory. 

  • Nov 10, 201211:46 pm
    by Mark

    Reply

    Drummond is shooting 72% FG this year. They might want to get him the ball more…

  • Nov 11, 201212:00 am
    by Stuckey and Whoever

    Reply

    You cant give the coach a pass Patrick.  You going soft these days?!  If you want to have the ball in the hands of knight most of the time your best 3pt shooter in the starting line up.  Thats what u get, post up Monroe and Stuckey more and Knight will be more available from three.  Monroe shouldnt be getting the ball around the elbow for that reason, work the inside out game with the slashing guards.  And don’t say Stuckey never, EVER needs to shoot 3′s.  Insert Drummond because the kid is way ahead of his time.  Not only can he probably shoot better Free throws than max, but he is needed badly on offensive glass and he can defend just as well.  He is the future playing next to Monroe, 0-7 what are you waiting for coach.  And your giving him a pass..?!  Is Frank paying you under the table?? haha

    • Nov 11, 201212:13 am
      by Patrick Hayes

      Reply

      “You cant give the coach a pass Patrick.”

      I clearly said that there are two very big, very specific things I’m holding him responsible for. The offense on this team was always going to be brutal, no matter who the coach. They have no spot-up shooters, a turnover prone point guard, a combo guard who is below average at finishing at the rim and a starting SF whose specialty is the worst shot in basketball, the long two. They do not have the tools to be a good offensive team. So I’m judging them on the tools they do have — length/activity/potential to be bothersome defensively and development of youth. What is so unfair about that?

      “Thats what u get, post up Monroe and Stuckey more and Knight will be more available from three.”

      Just because Knight is their ‘best’ 3 point shooter doesn’t mean he’s a great 3 point shooter. He’s a streaky shooter. The Pistons need spot-up shooters. Teams that have big men as talented offensively as Monroe always surround those guys with spot-up shooters. The Pistons haven’t given Frank the tools necessary to build a productive offense around Monroe’s skillset yet.

      “And don’t say Stuckey never, EVER needs to shoot 3?s.”
       
      Oh, excuse me for not wanting someone who is a proven bad 3-point shooter to be on pace to obliterate his career high in 3-point attempts. Just keep on shooting those, Stuck. After all, you don’t actually have to make shots to be called a 3-point shooter. You just have to attempt a lot of them, right?

      “Insert Drummond because the kid is way ahead of his time.”

      I’ve written too many words to bother counting in recaps dating back to the preseason that Drummond is ready for an increased role.

      “Not only can he probably shoot better Free throws than max”

      Maxiell is at nearly 70 percent, Drummond is at 57 percent. Also, I could give a shit if Drummond makes free throws or not. He’s on the court to block, dunk and rebound.

      “Is Frank paying you under the table?”

      He must’ve really broke the bank if I gave him a ‘D’ in the recap.

    • Nov 11, 201212:25 am
      by tarsier

      Reply

      There are many commenters who are harsher on Frank than Patrick. And there are also many, including myself, who are further on the fire Frank train than Patrick. however, he hardly qualifies as an apologist or defender of Frank.

  • Nov 11, 201212:02 am
    by Adam

    Reply

    Stuckey just doesn’t seem to be gelling with this offense at all. I’d like to see more of a lineup of Knight/English/Tay(or singler)/monroe/drummond. In theory, this gives us some of that 3-point shooting that you’ve noted patrick, along with rebounding and shot blocking.   

  • Nov 11, 201212:17 am
    by jjrob15

    Reply

    @Vince exactly, fans deserve to witness a winning season.

  • Nov 11, 201212:24 am
    by Ozzie-Moto

    Reply

    Joe Dumas should have been fired 3 years ago period.. not to say that his last drafts have been bad he had 3 guys FALL to him and his picks were pretty consensus but the way he has managed all the young players and trades have been horible     I see a guy that hangs on to his “belief ” about what he thinks is good more than he can see what is in front of his face. has hung on to the wrong vets. under developed younger plays as traded away one that are better than the one’s he has kept.  Only the changing ownership gave him one last shot. Frank OK maybe he was Gores choice (herd that) but again an academic  nerdy coach that just lacks what it takes to lead. giving away Afflio for nothing, extending Tay (man has the energy of a sloth) thinking Stuckey will ever be anything more than an OK guard off the bench. I did think that It was time to trade either CB or Hamilton but not getting NOTHING back for Chancey in the end. the list goes on and the current situation  is 100% on him…  ( assist to Gores if he picked Frank ) 

    • Nov 11, 20121:06 am
      by rick

      Reply

      “he had 3 guys FALL to him and his picks were pretty consensus”
       
      You right about consensus nut didnt he still have to make the pick. I mean going by your standard then he had no choice in picking Darko,correct. If it’s the consensus then you know it’s nonsense if you get all mad about that pick,because like you said these ”choices” are consensus.

      “ but the way he has managed all the young players and trades have been horible I see a guy that hangs on to his “belief ” about what he thinks is good more than he can see what is in front of his face.”

      How exactly has he managed the young players? And Just because he bought in Charlie V and Ben Gordon doesn’t mean he can rectify that situation. Had he not made those moves we may not have the young players we have now. 

       has hung on to the wrong vets. under developed younger plays as traded away one that are better than the one’s he has kept. Only the changing ownership gave him one last shot.

      What vet did he hang? Lol. So he gave away Johnson and Affalo and exactly what have they won since they left Detroit. Again with them we may not have the guys we have now. 

      Ownership knows that the last two years before they arrived that the man worked under restrictions, but I guess you did not know that. Stop complaining about Joe and tell Frank to look in the mirror. 

      Oh yeah you can book it Patrick let Detroit’s record be 1-10 by the end of next Sunday and Frank will get fired. They will lose to OKC then Philly and come home for their first victory on Friday. Anyone who loses that much isn’t teaching anyone anything other than how to lose. Fcaew it Frank was a bad choice and Im willing to bet that if they paid Rip money to go away why would they not do the same for a coach. This is a new rgime and this Gores hire no matter what many people may think.            

         

  • Nov 11, 201212:25 am
    by Corey

    Reply

    No idea what’s wrong with Stuckey. He’s terrible this year.
    I hated the lineup with Drummond, Bynum, and 3 small forwards in the second half (singler, prince, jerebko).  This was when they got killed.  The offense was totally lost with Bynum trying to play hero ball and drive into a pack of Rockets every play.  Drummond only touched the ball on offense a couple times. Every time he did, it seemed like he scored a basket or was fouled. Hey, maybe someone should actually pass it to him occasionally…
    This team needs another good guard BADLY.  It desperately needs an infusion of both perimeter shooting and ballhandling.  Knight is playing better. I think he’s getting the hang of it. No one else playing guard is doing anything.  
    Prince was good for a quarter, very good, and then he hardly did anything. 
    At least things are simplifying for Joe D, in figuring out what the team needs.  It’s becoming clear to me that:
    1 They have two good starter big men for the future in Monroe and Drummond. I could even see them both making the same all-star game someday.
    2 Knight is going to be at least competent. In another year or two he might even be good.
    3 They have a variety of decent young options at SF. They’re currently inconsistent, but I think it would help them if they played on a more balanced roster.
    4 They need a good shooting guard who can shoot the 3, and a good backup (or starting) point guard.  
    Unfortunately, Chad Ford of ESPN is projecting all the top draft prospects next year to be forwards and centers.  Joe D needs to get creative to get this team some better guard play.
    I’m starting to think they really do need to cut somebody loose or make a trade to open up a spot, and bring TWill back. He might be useful. 

    • Nov 11, 20121:52 am
      by ryan

      Reply

      There aren’t that many good young shooting guards in the NBA right now. Everyone wants to play point guard or small forward. Who would you have on your list of the best young shooting guards in the league?

      • Nov 11, 20121:54 am
        by ryan

        Reply

        James Harden is obviously one of the top guys. Jeremy Lamb is another very solid prospect.

        • Nov 11, 20122:01 am
          by ryan

          Reply

          I’d be 100% okay with shipping Austin Daye to Milwaukee for Doron Lamb if they’re willing to bite. Lamb is a solid shooter off the bench at the two. Seems worth it to me.

  • Nov 11, 201212:39 am
    by YesSir

    Reply

    If Mike Brown got fired i expect frank to be following soon the rockets aint yeah i said aint that dam good. We have more talent on our team overall. But frank refuse to use the line ups right, hey some games daye must play he can score sometimes just for a few minutes to keep the offense rolling hell if he miss take him out everybody was off tonite and the rockets aint that good on defense either. We are getting outscored we have terrible one on one defenders terrible help defense, i say frank dont have the best team to work with but dam harden first game he didnt even no the offense, and tonite we had an fill in coach frank got out coached by a backup damn frank.

    • Nov 11, 201212:53 am
      by Patrick Hayes

      Reply

      “ We have more talent on our team overall.”

      The Pistons have no one as good as James Harden. Lin is better than Knight. Asik has been one of the best defensive centers in the league this season. The Rockets have a ton of talented young PFs — Patrick Patterson and Marcus Morris were lottery picks. Royce White and Terrence Jones were projected by many to go in the lottery and fell just a bit. Chandler Parsons and Carlos Delfino are reliable 3-point shooters. Donatas Motiejunas would’ve been a top five pick if he’d entered the draft a year earlier than he did. How, exactly, do the Pistons have more talent overall than that? 

      • Nov 11, 20121:34 am
        by Mark

        Reply

        Monroe is better than James Harden. Harden’s an overrated 6th man. 

        • Nov 11, 20122:23 am
          by Patrick Hayes

          Reply

          Your story man.

        • Nov 11, 20128:44 am
          by Fan

          Reply

          Agreed, Monroe has higher BBall IQ, better court vision, better passer, can score. Harden is just a scorer. That’s it. If he can’t score he’s useless. Monroe can still contribute in some other way even when his shots aren’t falling. 

          • Nov 11, 20129:52 am
            by Patrick Hayes

            Harden’s averaging 5 rebounds, 5 assists and 2 steals per game.

            Damn, I feel like more people in the comments need league pass and Basketball Reference. 

          • Nov 11, 20125:21 pm
            by Fan

            @Patrick Monroe’s assist would be much higher if his team mates (Stucky, Prince, Knight) were actually hitting wide open shots. Plus Monroe is averaging 9.1 rebounds, 3.6 assists per game (compared to hardens 4.5), 1.6 steals (Harden 1.7) and Monroe is only playing 33 minutes compared to Hardens 39 minutes per game. Imagine Monroe getting the same minutes as Harden.
             

          • Nov 11, 20125:31 pm
            by Fan

            And by the way Harden has a whooping 5 turnovers per game. Monroe has only 3.

          • Nov 11, 201210:47 pm
            by tarsier

            Every player in the league would get more assists if their teammates hit wide open shots. i hate that argument because it is so overused (e.g. player x totally should have had a triple double tonight but his teammates were missing their shots OR player y would be among the ranks of elite PGs an assist rate if only his teammates hit their shots).

            NBA players tend to hit about 45% of their shots. Last season, teams ranged from 41.4% to 47.8%. It will probably be about the same again this year. That differential is not large enough to make major differences on how many assists most players get.

          • Nov 11, 201210:48 pm
            by tarsier

            And, for what it’s worth, even if it did, it would hurt Harden more than Monroe because the Pistons are 24th in FG% while the Rockets are 29th.

        • Nov 11, 201211:38 am
          by HIRE MIKE BROWN

          Reply

          I agree Mark…at least based on the good ole Skip Bayless eyeball test…and Stats from the last 4 games
          if you take away the first 2 games of the Season…
          Harden 19ppg 4.5rebs 3 ast 1stl …..BUT shooting 32% from the field  , 4-23 for 3?s and averaging a  over 5 to’s per game….
          Greg – 18.5 ppg 11rebs 5ast 2blk 1stl ….shooting 45-46& ….and 3?to …..
           

          • Nov 11, 20125:07 pm
            by tarsier

            Because when you are 6 games into a season, it is totally reasonable to remove the best 2 for the purposes of statistical analysis.

            Everyone looks well below their actual or expected performance levels if you take away the best third of their games. 

          • Nov 11, 201210:49 pm
            by tarsier

            But then, anything that draws on Skip Bayless is liable to be pretty absurd.

      • Nov 11, 201211:49 am
        by Jodi Jezz

        Reply

        Lin is better than Knight??? Lol…

        • Nov 11, 201211:54 am
          by Patrick Hayes

          Reply

          Compare their numbers, jackass.

          • Nov 11, 20125:09 pm
            by tarsier

            But Knight was a lottery pick projected to go as high as 3rd overall and Lin was undrafted. So Knight must be better, right? To say otherwise would be like claiming that Ben Wallace was better than Emeka Okafor. And what kind of coked out lunatic would think that?

        • Nov 11, 201212:07 pm
          by Desolation Row

          Reply

          Without question. He is extremely active on offense and can work well as a primary catalyst for plays. Yes, he turns it over a lot, but the benefit that comes with it is in getting his team to move and involves everyone in an inspired offense. He’s also a much smarter player and, at this point, has a higher performance ceiling than Knight any given game. 

  • Nov 11, 201212:43 am
    by bobby

    Reply

    Personally I don’t mind the losing much. It’s not pleasant right now, but with the prospect of using our cap space this summer to get a game changing free agent looking more slim, it couldn’t hurt to have a top 5 pick next year and hire a decent free agent.

    Knight/Monroe are already being developed and getting minutes–I’m confident Frank will get Drummond his minutes eventually as well. There’s nothing wrong with making a rookie earn his minutes. I know a lot of you would argue that he’s played better than Max and therefore he has earned his minutes. However, earning minutes means that he must be consistent as well.

    Unfotunately he hasn’t been the most consistent thus far (which is expected). If he keeps up what he is doing, and even adds a little more consistency, I’m sure he will be playing alongside Knight/Monroe. Then next year, with a new top 5 rookie and a free agent things could really pick up! 

    PS not sure why everyone is getting on Patrick for not wanting to fire Frank… everyone loved him when he turned the team around last season. Perhaps this is just what people think is the new norm after the Mike Brown firing.  

    • Nov 11, 20127:33 pm
      by revken

      Reply

      Agreed.  I’m disappointed they haven’t won yet, but didn’t expect them to win most of these games.  Expecting Drummond to earn his minutes makes good sense to me, and he seems to be doing that and growing into a good NBA player.  I’m sure his minutes will continue to increase.

      Stuckey’s play has been disappointing, and that is probably the biggest contributor to us not winning a game yet.  Last year he did well against the Kings.  A similar effort this time would have netted us a win.  None of us knows for sure what the problem is, but hopefully he’ll get back on track.  If not, we will be worse this year than last.  Then we have to hope for a good lottery pick.  

  • Nov 11, 201212:48 am
    by Domnick

    Reply

    we need to get the right pieces first before we blame the coach.. obviosuly.. we improved our defense in the past 3 games… look at last night, okc almost lost the game… we played better defense and starting to see drummond and monroe together..
    now, who is playing bad in offense? — Stuckey… is getting worse… fg% is bad… not an effective defender either.. so we need to make a good move before the trade deadline… they need to decide now on Stuckey… i want to trade him.. for a better 2-guard

    • Nov 11, 201212:50 am
      by bobby

      Reply

      i wouldn’t mind trying to find a way to throw prince in the deal. or CV if any team would everrrr be willing to trade him.
      just kidding that’s not realistic. i’ll settle for a stuckey/prince trade 

  • Nov 11, 201212:53 am
    by Mel

    Reply

    A veteran guard who can shoot the 3 can help. But really, the Pistons offense is not the problem. It’s their EFFORT, Tayshaun even admitted and when he speaks most of the time he’s not B S -ing. Stuckey is the main culprit. I use to give him a pass in years past, but no more. He want to play else where and thats OK with me go to Portland or what other team out west that make’s you happy. I want to watch players who give it there all even if we loose 50 games if the effort is displayed I’m happy. Shoot, I remember when we got Zeke, he came with talent but what was most noticeable was the effort he played with. Knight gives that same effort , not as talented but the effort is enough that eventually the skills will catch up. Stuck has all kinds of potential but he simply take games off , and this year is inexcusable. So Stuckey , Daye , Cv, and Frank sorry but you got to go. 

  • Nov 11, 20121:02 am
    by Mel

    Reply

    Oh yeah, and to talk about talent on a team we have enough to win games. Look at Cleveland, Charlotte, we’re just as good if not better and they’ve won games. Then you can look at coaching the Lakers, Brooklyn, Sac, Port,Wash, all have more talent but barely winning games. It’s no excuse for the Pistons but coaching and effort. IMHO  

    • Nov 11, 20121:14 am
      by rick

      Reply

      Moreso coaching, and  at best Detroit is 5-2 with the right coach and at worst 4-3. They should have won on opening night, against Phoenix, Sacramento, LA a loss although if they were a 2-0 team beaming wth confidence they may have stole one in LA. Then against Denver they were in it and against OKC. So I give them the losses to LA and OKC but all the other losses were not just about effort but futile coaching. I am all for patience, but I am so tired of people saying we are not ready(Tell OKC that) amd while I know we are not them why can we not build that confidence level up. If your leader isnt getting the job done why all of a sudden does the onus fall onto players ,whose only job is to play. Coaches put players in successful situations and I have yet to see their coach do that.

  • Nov 11, 20121:16 am
    by MNM

    Reply

      Frank isn’t the problem.. It’s a roster that is so bad, Maxiell is starting at power forward among other issues. Constantly changing the coach on an average of 2 years doesn’t do anybody any good. You look at a team like the Spurs.. Go look at how long Gregg Popavich has been coaching San Antonio and within that same time, look how many coaches the Pistons have had.. It’s rediculous. Frank isn’t the one drafting, trading or signing players. It’s quite clear that this roster was so bad when he got here, he’s had to start from the ground up just trying to teach these guys how to play defense and “”have eachothers back” drills” in practice for these guys to trust one another.
     
      On another note, I still can’t believe Austin Daye isn’t worth a 2nd round pick to somebody, and if he is, I can’t believe Joe hasn’t done anything about it. Charlie Villinaueva looks a bit pudgy to me, at least he did tonight (I can’t believe he’s still here).. Since the preseason, he basically looks like a boxer (see offseason) who is trying to play basketball.. He’s awful.

      Andre Drummond had a typical game tonight, at least from what I expected after what he did last night.. I didn’t expect he was gonna come close to that and I was right. For people who expect him to start, he’s prolly gonna have to put together consistantly good/solid numbers off the bench for weeks and earn that 5th spot.

    • Nov 11, 20122:23 am
      by Mark

      Reply

      Drummond had 7 pts and 7 rebs in only 20 min. I’m not sure you can expect any player, including LeBron, to consistently put up 22/8 in only 20 min like he did last game. But 7/7 in that time is still great production. Had he gotten 10 more min, probably would’ve had a double double. I’m not sure what you expected when he only got 2 FGA’s, but by contrast Maxiell had 6/4 in the same min. So not sure how you justify him starting, but saying Drummond needs to still prove himself. 

      Last 2 games, Drummond is avg 15 pts, 8 rebs on 10-12 FG in 20 min. iirc, Maxiell is avg 4 pts and 2 rebs in the same min. Time for Maxiell to prove himself. Drummond already has. 

      • Nov 11, 20122:25 am
        by Mark

        Reply

        *Maxiell actually avg 4 pts, 5 rebs last 2 games. Still pales in comparison to AD
        ‘s 15/8. Not to mention Drummond’s paint defense has been great too. 

      • Nov 11, 20129:16 am
        by MNM

        Reply

        Mark..Learn to read.. Really…I never expected him to start. I also never expected him to have another 20/8 performance.. On the other hand, I think others did and I wouldnt be suprised if others expected him to have a game like that in 20 minutes.. I don’t know what you were doing, but it wasn’t reading my comment.. Slow down… and try again.

  • Nov 11, 20121:22 am
    by Indonesianpiston

    Reply

    Monroe, knight and drummond are the best we’ve got. Stuckeys talent is vanishing. It’s visible. The rest of the guys are glue guys. Tay is or used to be the ultimate glue guy. We have too many Tays on our team. We need to develop the talent to reach their big potential. Meaning more minutes. Give the local fans what they want! Start Dre over Max. Common man.

    • Nov 11, 20124:40 am
      by rick

      Reply

      Maybe it’ because he is switched position’s with Knight. Basically the same player in my opinion.

  • Nov 11, 20125:25 am
    by Venice

    Reply

    HIRE COACH LARRY BROWN !

  • Nov 11, 20127:10 am
    by Eric

    Reply

    Frank stinks.  Is Joe D going to wait for the team to be 0-20 before he pulls the trigger like the Nets did.  This team is basically the same from last yr except for Gordon and Wallace.  They should not be an 0-7 team. 

    • Nov 11, 20129:50 am
      by Patrick Hayes

      Reply

      Wallace was their best defensive big last year and Gordon was a 40 percent 3-point shooter. Those are actually pretty big skills that are missing from this team.

      “They should not be an 0-7 team.”

      Uh … OK. Would like 1-6 or 2-5 be much better? This isn’t a good team. Teams that aren’t good don’t win much. 

  • Nov 11, 20127:21 am
    by HIRE MIKE BROWN

    Reply

    We are 0-7! …5 games you can connect right back to coaching…

    The idea that you want to give him a pass for the poor offensive play is ridiculous. The previous 2 games the offense started to look at least decent …. The spacing on the floor was wonderful…. The 2 main
    Facilitators were Monroe and Knight, were the options were simple and quick decisive …. Verse the Rocket Monroe wasn’t allowed to be a facilitator, and knight wasn’t put in a situation where he could create (5 turnovers from Knight, but they we’re spaced out and he had 2 early , and one late) he needs space to be creative…

    They may not be elite but we do have 3 point shooters…. Singler before the rockets game was shooting 50% for 3′s, english high 40′s, Knight 40%, even jonas has been shooting the 3 ball well ….you have austin daye and Charlie.V on the bench they can shoot the 3 ….

    We have a coach that does NOT know how to get the most out of the talent he has.

    There NO play RUN for Drummond in the POST! Even when he has the physical advantage…. But when Maxiel is in the game against players more physically dominate he get plays run for him in the post….

    So do not give him a pass on offense….

    • Nov 11, 20129:49 am
      by Patrick Hayes

      Reply

      I think the fact that you think this would be a 5-2 team if you subbed Mike Brown or whoever in as coach is insanely, insanely ridiculous. So you go ahead and think I’m ridiculous and I’ll go ahead and continue thinking you’re ridiculous.

      • Nov 11, 201210:10 am
        by HIRE MIKE BROWN

        Reply

        I never said 5-2 , I said 5 losses can be related directly to poor coaching ….. How you can argue against that is beyond me …and your caught up on a screen name … Dee Brown , Brain Hill … EVEN YOU or I could do a better job coaching this team … BUT YES! Mike Brown has been a recently relevant NBA HEAD COACH … Even if was on the back of Lebron and Kobe…. Lawrence Frank has Not … He might say the right things in interviews but when was his last winning season? …. How can we accept a 0-7 start after a season when we started 0-16? …. Expectation for this team is NOT NBA final, or eastern conference finals … But legit push at the play-off …. I don’t want us to wait until the last 15-20 games of the seaons to start winning because we are playing hard wit integrity while other team have decided to throw in the towel to secure the best lottery pick that they can….which what happened last year….

        • Nov 11, 201210:25 am
          by Patrick Hayes

          Reply

          “I never said 5-2 , I said 5 losses can be related directly to poor coaching”

          OK, whatever you said, you’re still wrong. Yes, poor coaching has been a significant factor this year. But you’re being dishonest by painting it as the team’s only issue. Stuckey has been awful. Monroe got off to a slow start. Knight has had a couple of high turnover games. Not all of the blame for this start goes on the coaching staff. Players have to make shots. That’s a big part of it too.

          “EVEN YOU or I could do a better job coaching this team”

          Nope. Not at all. You or I would be a million times worse as a coach than the worst coaches in the league.  

          “BUT YES! Mike Brown has been a recently relevant NBA HEAD COACH” 

          Yes. He’s been in the news a lot lately. For having his team tune him out and getting fired in-season faster than any coach in the last like three decades or so. Relevance!

          He’s been an effective defensive coach in Cleveland. He’s also had a ton of talent, which hides his flaws as a coach. Frank looked like a competent coach when he had talent in NJ too.

          “Expectation for this team is NOT NBA final, or eastern conference finals … But legit push at the play-off”

          They were always a longshot playoff team. The highest any national site had them in their preseason rankings was 18th. Most predicted they’d be in the 20-25 range of teams record-wise. They only people who have treated the Pistons like they are basically a playoff lock are homer Pistons fans blinded to the flaws that this team still has.

           

          • Nov 11, 201211:17 am
            by HIRE MIKE BROWN

            “OK, whatever you said, you’re still wrong. Yes, poor coaching has been a significant factor this year. But you’re being dishonest by painting it as the team’s only issue. Stuckey has been awful. Monroe got off to a slow start. Knight has had a couple of high turnover games. Not all of the blame for this start goes on the coaching staff. Players have to make shots. That’s a big part of it too.”

            and we still had chances to win those games….but if you want to pardon Franks thats up to you…but even your own post-game comments support what I am saying…by giving “D” Grades 

             ”Nope. Not at all. You or I would be a million times worse as a coach than the worst coaches in the league”

            Lol..maybe I put too much faith in you then…either way it was clear sarcasm…. 

            “Yes. He’s been in the news a lot lately. For having his team tune him out and getting fired in-season faster than any coach in the last like three decades or so. Relevance!
            He’s been an effective defensive coach in Cleveland. He’s also had a ton of talent, which hides his flaws as a coach. Frank looked like a competent coach when he had talent in NJ too.”

            So are you telling me you Believe Lawrence Frank is a Better Coach than mike Brown?  

          • Nov 11, 201211:21 am
            by HIRE MIKE BROWN

            “They were always a longshot playoff team. The highest any national site had them in their preseason rankings was 18th. Most predicted they’d be in the 20-25 range of teams record-wise. They only people who have treated the Pistons like they are basically a playoff lock are homer Pistons fans blinded to the flaws that this team still has.”

            Several places called the Pistons Darkhorses in the east…Once again I read it here on this site….but even if the expectation is only 20-25 games to be won…WHY ARE YOU NOT PLAYING YOUR YOUTH! IT MAKES NO SENSE to start Prince or maxiell …if you dont plan on winning or competing 

          • Nov 11, 201211:24 am
            by Patrick Hayes

            “but if you want to pardon Franks thats up to you”

            I don’t pardon him at all, other than my statement that I’m not worried about the offense being bad since I expected that anyway. He’s been bad. I’ve said and written that dozens of times. But firing him doesn’t cure what’s wrong with this team. They’re still a bad team that is deficient in a lot of key areas.

             ”So are you telling me you Believe Lawrence Frank is a Better Coach than mike Brown?”

            Not necessarily. I think they’re both mediocre coaches who have clear flaws. They can win games if they have good talent. But they also aren’t the type of coaches who I think are going to get the most out of a young roster or a roster with limited talent. That’s not really a knock on either guy, either. That statement could define a lot of NBA head coaches.

            Basically, I don’t think who your coach is matters all that much unless you have one of the top guys. Popovich, Jackson, Carlisle, Thibodeau, Spo … if you don’t have one of them, then you’re likely going to be complaining about the guy you have.

          • Nov 11, 201211:31 am
            by Patrick Hayes

            “Several places called the Pistons Darkhorses in the east…Once again I read it here on this site”

            ‘Darkhorse’ isn’t that much different than ‘longshot.’ Darkhorse just means that while they aren’t a likely playoff team they could conceivably improve a lot if all of their young players took big steps forward.

            My problem isn’t that some people thought the Pistons could sneak into the playoffs. My issue is people took that slim chance they had if everything went right and have now turned it into an expectation, as if it was a given that this team would be decent and now they’re some kind of major disappointment because they’re losing.

      • Nov 11, 201210:15 am
        by Domnick

        Reply

        can we trade both of them? i think joe d needs to move those bad players…

  • Nov 11, 20128:06 am
    by Indonesianpiston

    Reply

    Totally agree with you on the offensive call for maxiell. At best maxiell should only get the bail out mid range shot. Drummond should get intentional touch. Its ridiculous how they purposedly not passing the ball to drummond. Its like he’s everyones new hope and Frank play the tough love card too much. Even Greg said man becarefull franks gonna pull you if you make small mistake.

  • Nov 11, 20129:08 am
    by Corey

    Reply

    We should keep in mind that this is a likely lottery team that’s played one game at home so far. Lottery teams lose most of their road games. no one wants hear it it, but with only 1 home game, this team shouldn’t be expected to be better than 2-5. The only games one would give them a real shot at we’re rockets at home, and Sacramento, Houston, and Phoenix on the road. They should have won half those. When they start playing at home more, they’ll win some.

    but not the OKC game… 

  • Nov 11, 20129:51 am
    by HIRE MIKE BROWN

    Reply

    We are not a bad team…. We are just being poorly coached….I’ve seen seen team with equal or less talent do better …. I’m sorry as a Pistons Fan you can’t accept a 0-7 start after last seasons 0-16 start ….

    It tears away at a franchise ….

    • Nov 11, 201212:21 pm
      by MNM

      Reply

      “We are not a bad team…. We are just being poorly coached….”  -Might be the dumbest/most “homerest” comment of the season so far..and Im saying “so far”, because something tells me you’ll find a way to come up with more.

  • Nov 11, 20129:54 am
    by D. Stewart

    Reply

    Concerning Middleton, you made the statement, “I don’t think there’s a rotation spot that he could push for.” And I guess I find that disturbing considering that we’re talking about a winless team here. If you’re 0-7, I would hope that almost all “rotation spots” would be up for grabs. If Middleton is not allowed to “push for a spot” on a winless squad, then Frank is much more inflexible than I ever imagined … and we (as fans) are in deep, deep trouble. I say let the equipment manager have a shot if you think he can help. At this point, there’s no way that this ineffective rotation should be set in stone. We’re not the Miami Heat. We’re the bumbling, stumbling Detroit Pistons.

    • Nov 11, 201210:01 am
      by Patrick Hayes

      Reply

      Who do you bench? Prince and Stuckey are out of the question. They haven’t been good, but they’re highly paid veterans and if the team benches them, it not only sinks their trade value even more, it potentially creates a bad locker room situation. Jerebko? Singler? English? Theoretically, yes, Middleton could beat one of those guys out. But I think it’s highly, highly unlikely. He showed some a bit of potential, but it’s not like he looked like he’s a future star or anything like that. I don’t think he has more potential to contribute at this point than Singler or Jerebko. I’d rather see them getting the minutes.

  • Nov 11, 201210:26 am
    by HIRE MIKE BROWN

    Reply

    Brutally Fan Honesty …. We’d be 100% okay with a 0-7 start with …. Drummond/Greg/Singler or Jonas/Middleton/Knight line up ….

    With Prince, stuckey, and Maxeill coming off the bench…will it happen not likely…

    But stuckey is in his 5 year … Prince his 11th year…..Man in his 8 … And other than a 10 or maybe 15 game stretch last year with Stuckey….they all have been just barely average …. So why not give younger more exciting players a chance to just be barely average? …

    A youth movement …. Never hurts any franchise

    • Nov 11, 201210:39 am
      by Patrick Hayes

      Reply

      Do you think Dumars is OK with that philosophy? He’s always, as a GM, been a veterans-first type of person. What makes you think he’d advocate a coach deciding to bench veterans — two of whom Dumars just signed to pricey contract extensions last offseason — to go with a ‘youth movement?’

      The fact is, Frank is carrying out a philosophy that has long been a part of this organization under Dumars’ tenure. 

      • Nov 11, 201210:54 am
        by HIRE MIKE BROWN

        Reply

        I’ve been Dumars support for years …even when he made questionable moves I supported the vision…But I am a strong believer in coaching … Micheal Curry, Kuester, and now Franks are low-budget coaches …with No consistent winning history …and it has shown in the team …. Even if it was the owners puting him in a box… You should change the philosophy

  • Nov 11, 201210:47 am
    by YesSir

    Reply

    Frank got out coached by a back up. We are not that bad to lose to houston twice they just lost 3 in a row. Honestly cv ben gordon got a bad wrap here they both were good before they came here, check cv stats as a buck check bg stats as a bull now look at bg on the bobcats. Daye is better than advertised frank does not know how to use daye or cv right. neither did kuester. daye made the most of his little 5 mins last nite.

    • Nov 11, 201210:50 am
      by Patrick Hayes

      Reply

      You will probably find plenty of support for a ‘Frank doesn’t develop players’ type of statement.

      But I guarantee you will find zero support if the players you are using as your examples are Villanueva, Gordon and Daye. 

    • Nov 11, 20126:01 pm
      by PISSED-ON!

      Reply

      No Sirrrr man those bums CV and Daye havent been S**T since they got here the dream is over let those guys go if youre such a fan of them I hope you follow them to Italy in the Euro leauge next year cause thats where they will be.

  • Nov 11, 201210:58 am
    by YesSir

    Reply

    Patrick the rockets are not better than us lets compare pg knight did good against lin. Stuckey if plays well harden cant check him harden by far is there best player period. sf tay is better than parsons. i like patterson but max is ok. and Moose is better than asik and patterson. bench a wash we should have won the game. we should have kept delfino i always liked him.

    • Nov 11, 201211:14 am
      by Patrick Hayes

      Reply

      The Rockets have the best player on either team in Harden and they have more depth. Are they better overall than the Pistons? I dunno. I think they have more talent top to bottom for sure. Both are going to be late lottery teams though. I don’t think it’s some kind of outrage that the Pistons lost to them. 

      • Nov 11, 201211:35 am
        by HIRE MIKE BROWN

        Reply

        Harden Really? Maybe you need too look up basketball reference…

        if you take away the first 2 games of the Season…

        Harden 19ppg 4.5rebs 3 ast 1stl …..BUT shooting 32% from the field  , 4-23 for 3′s and averaging a  over 5 to’s per game….

        Greg – 18.5 ppg 11rebs 5ast 2blk 1stl ….shooting 45-46& ….and 3′to …..

        NOW EXCUSES AND COVER TIME…Go Ahead Patrick.. 

        • Nov 11, 201211:35 am
          by HIRE MIKE BROWN

          Reply

          stats based on the last 4 games

          • Nov 11, 201212:50 pm
            by jerrific

            and you chose the last two games why? because I’m pretty sure the first two still count. How do those stats look if you also took away Monroes best two games?

          • Nov 11, 20125:13 pm
            by tarsier

            C’mon jerrific, isn’t the answer obvious? He took away Harden’s best two games out of six because otherwise his point would look invalid.

            Besides, those two were like a week ago, you can’t use them. That’s only about three orders of magnitude away from using Garnett’s MVP season in a measurement of how good he is right now.

          • Nov 11, 20126:48 pm
            by HIRE MIKE BROWN

            ITS ABOUT CONSISTENCY!!! and what happens when Defenses adjust….. Because so many people after two game dubbed Harden MVP of the league…but other than 2 games…he has been terrible!

            Monrow started slowed but in the last 4 he has played the way we expected him to play this season….

            A good big than can score can average a double double is harder to find than a Scoring SG.. 

          • Nov 11, 201210:52 pm
            by tarsier

            And maybe Harden will learn to adjust after 4 subpar, but not awful, games. Let the numbers average themselves out. Once he has played 20 games or so, we will have a better idea of how good he is than we do now (and even better yet after a season or two). And by then, 2 games one way or the other won’t alter things much. So there is no need to throw them out. But after 6 games, it is preposterous to throw out 2.

          • Nov 11, 201211:58 pm
            by jerrific

            When has Greg Monroe ever proved he’s capable of putting up forty points in a game? (he probably is, but he has yet to prove it.) Consistency is important, but to cite that as a reason for a reason for a players value after six games is insane. That isn’t enough time to prove any type of consistency, regardless of the outcomes. 

  • Nov 11, 201211:31 am
    by Pistons87

    Reply

    Man it’s like 80% if the commenters are not watching the same games I am. This team lacks NBA quality players  period.   Point to Monroe, Stuckey, Drummond, knight all you want but the only one who is above average at his position is Monroe. Knight had not proven he can be starter yet or even A quality backup. Drummond is raw, raw, raw but has potential, still he would probably not leave the bench on a playoff team.

    There are so many wholes on this team: little outside shooting, no good one on one defenders, no good team defenders, no backup PG (hell no PG really). Noone could win with this mess against an average team.

    • Nov 11, 201211:34 am
      by Patrick Hayes

      Reply

      This!

    • Nov 11, 201211:44 am
      by HIRE MIKE BROWN

      Reply

      So in your Opinion Pistons 87…0-7 is accept..and you believe that Frank is getting all he can get out of this no talent team?

      because what the fans are saying is, the no talent player are not being put in the best position to win games…not that we are going to win 40 games…but you should not start one season 0-16 and follow it up with another 0-7 start…DO ANYONE UNDERSTANDS THIS?

      • Nov 11, 201211:53 am
        by Patrick Hayes

        Reply

        Why are you putting words in anyone’s mouth? Pistons87 did not say anything that you just extrapolated from that comment.

        No fan wants to watch an 0-7 team. But you’re also a bit delusional about what was realistic for this team to accomplish this season. 

      • Nov 11, 20122:41 pm
        by Pistons87

        Reply

        As a fan I habe to hope that things get better but the only way this team was going to be average was to have amazing jumps in productivity by our PG and backup PG, a significant jump by our SG, and dominant  play out of Monroe. None of that had happened. 

        Im not OK with 0-7. But I’m not going to kill Frank when the problems with this team are structural and talent (I’m looking at you Joe D). 

      • Nov 11, 20125:16 pm
        by tarsier

        Reply

        2-5 would probably be a reasonable expectation. But you don’t fire a coach for underperforming expectations by two games. If Frank were fired, it should be because he refuses to play a guy who has the potential to be the best player on the team (granted, i don’t actually expect him to pass Monroe) in a few years.

  • Nov 11, 201212:02 pm
    by Mel

    Reply

    They where 21-21 the last half of last season and we have better talent now than we had then. We beat Cleveland by 50  and we beat the Lakers at home, we also beat a few other good teams down that stretch. But this year Frank is incorporating new defensive schemes that the team is having problems applying. I believe the team is thinking too much and starting to doubt Frank. I find it interesting  one night players and coaches saying that there not worried about scoring and that they can score when they want but then after tonights game everyone is complaining about the offense. The only winning seasons  he had were with veteran players, as soon as the talent left he lost all control of the team. I remember when we hired Frank, Jersey fans where laughing at what a joke he was. He gives the impression that he knows what he’s talking about but he’s still a coach who started out as a video coordinator just like Mike Brown did for Bikerstaff when he came to the league. And you know what happen to Mike Brown.

  • Nov 11, 201212:09 pm
    by Mel

    Reply

    It’s interesting now that we are 0-7 that it wasn’t expected to win games, while during the preseason even national critics where even changing their opinions about the Pistons. So it’s not too far fetched to have expected this team to win at least one game by now.

    • Nov 11, 201212:12 pm
      by Patrick Hayes

      Reply

      No one expected the Pistons to be 0-7, but looking at the schedule they opened with as well as the lack of overall talent on the roster, a bad start shouldn’t have been completely unexpected either. 

  • Nov 11, 201212:25 pm
    by Desolation Row

    Reply

    Drummond needs more playing time. Until either this is addressed or we start winning games, I will not defend Lawrence Frank. Starting Drummond gives us the best chance to win both now and in the future. I could see if Maxiell was a better player like Kris Humphries or Tyrus Thomas how there would be hesitation. But he is a bottom-of-the-rotation player on any team and should not be offended, given his skill-level and talent, by being asked to come off the bench for a better player just because he is younger. Nor should any potential veteran considering playing for Detroit look at that situation and be irked by the fact that a lesser player was benched for a superior talent just because the lesser player was an “established” veteran. 

    TL;DR — Start Drummond not just to develop him, but because playing him gives us a better chance to win now than Maxiell does. 

  • Nov 11, 201212:27 pm
    by Mel

    Reply

    Hey Pat, just trying to understand what you mean by lack of talent. Do you mean not having Big Ben or Gordon on the team ? Because now you have two 7 footers and 3 other rookies that are better than our vets when it comes to 3 point shooting. Gordon was good but defense sucked and Ben of course was Ben. But honestly if Frank would have played Drummond more during the Sacramento game that could have been won let alone the other games. I believe it has to do more with effort and line up combo’s thats effected us this first 7 games. They may turn it around and I sure hope so, but when players are even questioning the effort you have to wonder. ( Even Monroes effort wasn’t as strong in the first couple of games.)

    • Nov 11, 201212:41 pm
      by Patrick Hayes

      Reply

      By lack of talent, I mean that this team does not have enough talent to be a playoff team. They have limited veterans, two turnover prone, shoot-first point guards, awful perimeter shooting and a collection of young, untested players. I think it’s crazy that people expected that this team would be a shoe-in to the playoffs.

      The losses of Gordon and Wallace hurt. Wallace was the team’s best interior defender and Gordon was a 40+ percent 3-point shooter. I’m not saying that either guy should’ve been brought back, necessarily, but both guys did have specific skills that have not been replaced adequately. Are either guys you can necessarily rely on? No. But both are NBA rotation players with specific skills who were essentially replaced with rookies, and only one of those rookies, Drummond, is an elite prospect. So yes, there was bound to be dropoff from last season because of their losses.

      “Because now you have two 7 footers and 3 other rookies that are better than our vets when it comes to 3 point shooting. ” 

      Of those five players, would any of them be rotation players on a good team right now? You’re confusing ‘potential’ with ‘production.’ The Pistons certainly have a roster with more young players and more upside than last year. But that doesn’t mean those players are ready to be contributors right now.

  • Nov 11, 201212:44 pm
    by Stuckey and Whoever

    Reply

    Quick question basketball reference Patrick.  When is the last time a rookie piston big man had numbers around 22 and 8?  Not even Greg Monroe did that his rookie season!  He is better than Max.  And I like Max.  Taking the passive aggressive approach hasn’t work for years and won’t work this year.  You make changes early to set yourself up for the best chances to win later in the season.  And have the confidence to do it!  The Lakers have made changes early because they know there are a team that wants to contend.  FREE ANDRE DRUMMOND!!!!!!!!!!  Or Fire Frank!  If you can only be the laughing stock of the league for so long, some people just get used to it.  Not me!!  Don’t tell me he is not ready to start. 
     

    • Nov 11, 201212:54 pm
      by Patrick Hayes

      Reply

      “When is the last time a rookie piston big man had numbers around 22 and 8?  ”

      He had a great game. Probably a bad idea to draw conclusions based on one performance alone, that’s a pretty small sample size and it’s not fair to Drummond to expect that kind of production every game at this point.

      “Don’t tell me he is not ready to start. ”

      When did I say that? On this team, he’s their second best big man. Sure, he’s still raw, he’s going to have bad moments, but he’s their best option to play a primary role, starting or otherwise, next to Monroe. I’ve been writing pretty much that same thing since the preseason, but since I’m not a frothing at the mouth ‘fire the coach! this should be a playoff team!’ screamer down here, I get portrayed as being not in favor of playing Drummond. The reality is I’ve been advocating big minutes for the guy ever since he performed well early in preseason.

    • Nov 11, 20125:31 pm
      by tarsier

      Reply

      During his rookie season, Monroe posted:

      14-11 against the Lakers on Jan 4
      16-13 against Philly on Jan 8
      14-11 against Memphis on Jan 12
      16-9 against Dallas on Jan 17
      15-17 against New York on Jan 30
      20-11 against New Jersey on Feb 4
      14-13 against San Antonio on Feb 8
      27-12 against Indiana on Feb 23
      16-11 against Philly on Feb 25
      12-16 against Utah on Feb 26
      18-11 against Minnesota on Mar 2
      16-10 against San Antonio on Mar 10
      21-10 against Toronto on Mar 16
      17-10 against Atlanta on Mar 20
      14-12 against Miami on Mar 23
      22-14 against Washington on Apr 5
      20-10 against New Jersey on Apr 6

      So I’d hesitate to say, “When is the last time a rookie piston big man had numbers around 22 and 8?  Not even Greg Monroe did that his rookie season!” 

      • Nov 11, 20125:35 pm
        by tarsier

        Reply

        Which of those are better or worse than 22-8, you’d have to judge for yourself with the obvious exceptions of 27-12 and 22-14.

      • Nov 12, 201212:04 am
        by jerrific

        Reply

        But, did Greg Monroe do it it just twenty mintues? Hate to nitpick, but the limited amount of pt Drummond did it in is just as impressive as the numbers he put up. 

        • Nov 12, 201212:26 am
          by tarsier

          Reply

          I’d rather have 27 and 12 in 32 minutes than 22 and 8 in 20 minutes any day.

  • Nov 11, 201212:47 pm
    by T MC

    Reply

    Only thing worst than watch those bums stink is listening to special K & Blaha excuses!
    The Detroit press is critical of all our sport teams except the pistons why?
    How can BOTH the front office and the players get passes? Our media seems just to turn a blind eye.

  • Nov 11, 201212:48 pm
    by Mel

    Reply

    “Of those five players, would any of them be rotation players on a good team right now?”
    You won’t know unless you play them. Dion Waiters was awful during preseason now during the regular season he’s being considered rookie of the year potential. Drummond is considered raw but with less playing time he’s playing better than Max. I don’t think I’m that confused.
    You have to give the young talent a fair chance to see how they can perform in the spot light.

    • Nov 11, 201212:57 pm
      by Patrick Hayes

      Reply

      Dion Waiters is a lottery pick. English, Singler and Middleton are second rounders, Kravtsov wasn’t even drafted. How many rookie second rounders or undrafted players are in rotations on teams, good or bad, right now.

  • Nov 11, 201212:49 pm
    by Rodman4Life

    Reply

    Everyone is missing the point.  If you really care about the Pistons, you’re pulling for a small injury to Prince or, preferably, Stuckey.  Then Dumars doesn’t have to look bad, Frank won’t look bad, but we can see the player we want inserted into the lineup for a short stint. 

  • Nov 11, 20121:04 pm
    by Mel

    Reply

    Ben Wallace was not a lottery pick and look what he did for his career when given a chance. Your point is not valid there Bro. There’s plenty of player including second rounders who’ve been major contributors on teams. If your loosing like we are what’s going to hurt to play your rookies ? At least your going to get the effort. And many did not consider Waiters a lottery pick. Look at Rivers he’s a lottery pick and is not doing well. Whether its a first or second rounder is besides to point to me, Chase Budinger was a bottom of the barrel pick and he contributed his first year.

    • Nov 11, 20121:19 pm
      by Patrick Hayes

      Reply

      Haha. “Bro.” We’re not bros.

      “Ben Wallace was not a lottery pick and look what he did for his career when given a chance.”

      Wallace played less than 200 minutes as a rookie. He was an end of the bench guy most of his second season too. Yes, he worked his ass off and became one of the best defensive players ever. But he’s the exception, not the rule. You’re illogical. Because you can point two one or two rare players who exceed expectations for undrafted players, it means they all will? And it means you should play them right away as rookies because there is a minuscule chance you have the next Ben Wallace? There’s a reason teams don’t play second rounders and undrafted guys much. It’s because overwhelmingly, players drafted or signed as rookie free agents aren’t good enough to make it long term in the league. I hope the Pistons have an exception or two in this current crop, but you seem to be acting like these are can’t-miss prospects.

       ”There’s plenty of player including second rounders who’ve been major contributors on teams.”

      As rookies? Name them. It’s a short list. There are usually two or maybe three second round rookies a year who contribute in a rotation. You know how many second round picks there are a year total? The overwhelming majority of second round picks barely ever touch a NBA court.

      “If your loosing like we are what’s going to hurt to play your rookies ?”

      Nothing. I’ve never once said they shouldn’t play their young players. But I’m also expecting that if they did, those young players would be worse than the veterans they replace (Drummond replacing Maxiell would be the exception, I think Drummond would be better). English wouldn’t be better than Stuckey right now. Middleton/Singler wouldn’t be better than Prince. Kravtsov wouldn’t be better than Maxiell. Sure, go ahead and play them and see if they develop. 

      “And many did not consider Waiters a lottery pick. Look at Rivers he’s a lottery pick and is not doing well. ”

      The point isn’t that lottery picks never fail. They obviously do. But teams also invest guaranteed contracts in them, they are picked in the lottery because they have greater upside than guys taken later in drafts and there is a much greater payoff for developing a lottery player than a second rounder. If you develop a lottery guy, you might be getting a star. Developing a second rounder might get you a role player. Huge, huge difference in incentives there.

      “Chase Budinger was a bottom of the barrel pick and he contributed his first year.”

      EXCEPTIONS ARE NOT THE RULE! You cannot take an example of one guy working out when the overwhelming majority don’t and say, “Well, Buddinger was good, so the Pistons HAVE to play all four of these second round/undrafted guys in their rotation.”
       

  • Nov 11, 20121:20 pm
    by Patrick Hayes

    Reply

    Alright, it’s been real everyone, but I’ve gotta get out of this thread and do something productive with my day before my head explodes.

    • Nov 11, 20124:43 pm
      by Desolation Row

      Reply

      Haha it almost seems like you are being trolled but I couldn’t say for sure…

    • Nov 11, 20125:15 pm
      by PISSED-ON!

      Reply

      LOL yeah pat dont let these fools ruin your day but thanks for responding to the threads thats real effort!

  • Nov 11, 20121:34 pm
    by Mel

    Reply

    Go ahead Patrick I’m going to watch the Lions game. I was being cool  with you when I said Bro. But since we’re not bros, Ha Ha Ha, here’s some facts of successful second rounders who start.
     
    Luis Scola
    Carl Landr
    Marc Gasol
    Mehmet Okur

    Monta Ellis
    Mo Williams
    Gilbert Arenas

    Michael Redd
    Louis Williams
    Paul Millsap
    Dejuan Blair

     

    • Nov 11, 20127:56 pm
      by Jordan

      Reply

      11 in the last 10 years that is an impressive success rate. And most werent relevant in their rookie years.

  • Nov 11, 20121:45 pm
    by Scott Free

    Reply

    I think a lot of us are allowing the underplaying of Drummond to cloud a BIG reason the Pistons have been ineffective — Stuckey.  This team NEEDS Stuckey to have a consistent 15-16 ppg from Stuckey if they want to compete.  Otherwise they’re making a fist with 4 fingers.

  • Nov 11, 20122:35 pm
    by frankie d

    Reply

    “The losses of Gordon and Wallace hurt. Wallace was the team’s best interior defender and Gordon was a 40+ percent 3-point shooter. I’m not saying that either guy should’ve been brought back, necessarily, but both guys did have specific skills that have not been replaced adequately. Are either guys you can necessarily rely on? No. But both are NBA rotation players with specific skills who were essentially replaced with rookies, and only one of those rookies, Drummond, is an elite prospect. So yes, there was bound to be dropoff from last season because of their losses.”
    this is very true.  the curious thing is that there has been no real attempt to  address those losses through coaching schemes or player rotations.
    the team needs interior defense?
    then why has it been difficult to get the two new seven footers on to the court, despite the obvious failure of the team’s interior defense.  
    when you watch the games, it is clear that every opponent is simply taking the ball to the basket as many times as they can.  the only time that strategy is changed is when drummond comes into the game and you can immediately see teams hesitating on their drives to the basket.
    3 point shooting?
    the best 3 point shooters on the team – other than knight – are probably english, middleton, singler, daye and cv.  of that group, only singler is seeing consistent minutes.  considering the team’s lack of 3 point shooting and how it impacts the rest of the offense, i just think it is crucial to find someway, somehow to get a couple of those guys into the regular rotation.  how you do that, i’m not sure, but considering the real lack of that skill among the current rotation, it just seems like something that needs to be addressed.
    and if the team has no use for either CV or daye, why are they still on the active roster?  what is the point?
    i know i am one of the few fans who believes that both players still have some way they might contribute.  they both have shown in the past that they can shoot 3′s.  both have defensive issues.  why not find some way to keep them on the floor – a zone defense, for instance – and allow them to at least attempt to use their 3 point shooting skills.
    i just know that the idea of keeping a couple on he active roster, when you have no interest in playing them, when those same players have skills you need…well, it just seems a little crazy to me.
    if you aren’t going to use them, trade them, deactivate them, send them to the d-league…do something.  but why simply clog up the active roster with dead weight.
    the pistons saga gets curioser and curioser. 

  • Nov 11, 20122:39 pm
    by Anthony

    Reply

    The last time the Pistons started of 0-7 they won the next 8 games… Just sayin

  • Nov 11, 20125:11 pm
    by PISSED-ON!

    Reply

    Im tired of it its getting sad im just wating for them to lose more so they can start cleaning house, even if they win one in the next week the ratio is so bad they might not win no more than 10-15 wins this season. Its depressing, sad and im just tired of It idk if Frank is coaching these guys right or is he over coaching in practice is he working the players too hard? their rotaion is pityful the bench is good (minus a few exceptions cv,ad) but they cant never show their dominace because the starting line-up is awful there are at least 4 guys now on the rotation that can be in the starting line up but frank over looks it so at this point all of my emotion and dedication is gone they are hard to watch and if the staff and players dont care then why should we care. I am a hard core piston fan but its too many games in the season to have me depressed over a team that can be better with a couple of changes im pretty much about to be a fan of good entertaining basketball thats all I can say.

    • Nov 11, 20126:17 pm
      by tarsier

      Reply

      regression to the mean

      It is highly improbable that the pistons finish with 10-15 wins. If, at the halfway mark, they are, let’s say 6-36, it will still be highly improbable. 

      • Nov 11, 20128:08 pm
        by Piston Heel

        Reply

        idk if the schedule not in their favor by then its possible, they have to make changes to the line up to play better or produce some wins

        • Nov 11, 201210:58 pm
          by tarsier

          Reply

          Look, they have the talent of about a 33 win team (i.e. winning about 40% of their games). Maybe you think they have less talent, perhaps even little enough to win just 25% of their games. Thinking any less of this squad would be almost as absurd as thinking they are title contenders. But of course, that fact can’t change the past. 0-7 remains 0-7. But that means, you don’t forecast 0-7 forward to 0-82. You forecast forward the fact that they should win about 40% of their games over the next 75 to estimate that they’ll end with about 30 wins. Or, at a 25% clip, that they’d end up with about 19 wins (instead of the 21 one might have projected to start the season).

          • Nov 12, 201212:22 am
            by Piston Heel

            Dude you can throw plus minus percentages all you want if these dudes go 0-11 by next week you can throw 33 games out the window… its about heart, pride and Determination not facts and figures yeah we know we have the team to do it hell they was projected to be a bottom feeder in the playoffs but now we looking at them getting 15-33 wins if and I mean IF they dont make any kind of moves that will be the projection.

          • Nov 12, 201212:32 am
            by tarsier

            Oh yeah, for sure. If they have the talent of a 33 win team and get off to a significantly worse start, they probably won’t finish with 33 wins. But they will probably finish on a 33 win pace the rest of the year. In this case, of course, 33 is just a number I randomly chose. Nothing special about it. It could just as easily be 24 or 37 or whatever else.

            But pride and determination are irrelevant to the discussion. If they are present, losing won’t make them go away. If they appear to go away, odds are you were seeing something else. And being “hot” or :cold” can change over the course of one game. The fact of the matter is that, for the most part, we already saw this team last year. So we know how good it is. Whether 4 games from now they are 4-7 or 0-11 doesn’t change that.

  • Nov 11, 20126:35 pm
    by T Casey

    Reply

    I’ve been saying since it was first rumored that we might acquire Lawrence Frank as head coach that is was a bad move. Based off of his stint in NJ and here, he has never gotten his teams to perform better after his arrival than before, they progressively get worse with him at the helm, and he hasn’t noticeably developed any of his players’ games either here or in New Jersey.

    It’s no coincidence that we’re seeing the same inconsistent and uncommitted team play here that developed in New Jersey under his coaching, despite previously going to the Finals two straight times under Byron Scott the year before he got there. His defenders can keep pointing to every other issue they want, but, although some other factors do play a role, this is exactly the kind of play his detractors said to expect when we first hired him. He simply isn’t a good head coach. And you can’t expect a team to play to their potential with a losing coach at the helm. It’s ocmpletely unrealistic.

  • Nov 11, 20126:42 pm
    by Mel

    Reply

    Thanks, T Casey. Very well put.

  • Nov 11, 20127:24 pm
    by Mark

    Reply

    I have had enough of the Dumars/Frank regime. They need to give the youngsters minutes. If there is a chance to deal Prince and Stuckey, deal them. Stuckey it appears has reached his ceiling. We need new leadership in the person of Laimbeer to bring back the passion to this team. There is lack of fire and intensity which has permeated this organization. Time to clean house  

  • Nov 11, 20127:45 pm
    by Desolation Row

    Reply

    I know it was just one game, but Austin Daye looked solid yesterday. I’d like to see him play a bit more to see what they have with him in game-time situations. He did his part; he came off the bench and played well in limited minutes. Maybe he is past his shooting woes. 

    • Nov 12, 201212:29 am
      by Piston Heel

      Reply

      It was garbage time vs garbage players thats all imma say lets not get carried away

      • Nov 12, 201211:07 am
        by Crispus

        Reply

        Sometimes it seems like Daye is playing against the rim, not even the other team.

  • Nov 11, 201211:41 pm
    by JakartaPistons

    Reply

    Wow. long threads. The more the losses the longer the threads. Frank is metamorphosing into Kuester 

  • Nov 12, 201212:17 am
    by Travis

    Reply

    I would call about 10 commentators on this post shortsighted Piston fans, but that would disservice to shortsighted NBA fans. Many of you sound like you could coach, play, manage, and be a better owner than   many of those in the Pistons organization.

    I suppose that’s what happens when everyone on the Internet has an opinion.

    My opinion: The Pistons are overly matched, outplayed, out hustled, and are exhausted from being away from their own beds. They have been living out of a suitcase and have been sleeping in beds for 6’3 men. That’s a lot for a young team to deal with on the road against playoff teams.

    Coach Frank is a coach that likes to make changes after watching the results in practice. Hence, Maggette not playing the last two games and the lack of a new starting lineup. I recommend everyone reserve their rash judgements until Frank has a chance to deal with a rested team that has a few more practices and home games. 

    You can flame on as much as you want, but your rebuttal and my response will just be another online pissing match that goes around and around like a merry-go-round.

    • Nov 12, 201212:36 am
      by tarsier

      Reply

      “The Pistons are… exhausted from being away from their own beds. They have been living out of a suitcase and have been sleeping in beds for 6’3 men.”

      So do you think that the Pistons organization is just terrible at booking hotels that can accommodate big people in spite of the fact that they clearly have the money to shell out for big enough beds? If it’s not something especially bad about the Pistons’ travel planners, then what kind of excuse is that? They’re opponents are in the same situation. Whether people agree with you or not about the hardships of being an NBA player, I see no reason to think that it gives any team a competitive advantage over another.

      • Nov 12, 20121:53 am
        by Travis

        Reply

        Honestly, if you actually watch behind the scenes shows on the NBA channel, they talk about even the nicest hotels do not have beds to accomodate players larger than 6’5″. That’s a fact. Not some bs.

        Don’t call out someone if you don’t read or watch what goes on behind the scenes. That might require some thinking on your behalf though.
         

        • Nov 12, 201210:52 am
          by tarsier

          Reply

          But how does that affect the Pistons worse than any other team? How does it give anyone a competitive advantage. I never said that it was easy to find massive beds. I said that I doubted the fault was on the woeful incompetence of the Pistons organization. Because that would be the only explanation of how other teams would have an edge on Detroit in this regard.

  • Nov 12, 20121:51 am
    by koz

    Reply

    @ Mel Ginobili was 57th pick

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