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	<title>Comments on: Isiah Thomas&#8217; Dream Team exclusion due to Michael Jordan, timing</title>
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		<title>By: Rashod Welch</title>
		<link>http://www.pistonpowered.com/2012/08/isiah-thomas-dream-team-exclusion-due-to-michael-jordan-timing/comment-page-1/#comment-145155</link>
		<dc:creator>Rashod Welch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Apr 2013 22:50:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pistonpowered.com/2012/08/isiah-thomas-dream-team-exclusion-due-to-michael-jordan-timing/#comment-145155</guid>
		<description>The topic of this discussion is exactly why people fight so hard to make sure history, in all areas, is kept OUT of the hands of the revisionists.

Powers that be in the Sports Media have attempted to perpetrate a fraud over the past 20 to 25 years and revise NBA history.  They have tried to sell the unwitting public on the following 3 lies:
 
LIE #1) BASKETBALL IN THE 80s AND EARLY 90s WAS MAGIC-BIRD-JORDAN.  

It wasn&#039;t.

Anytime you hear someone refer to that era as the &quot;Magic Bird Jordan&quot; era, you should correct them.  It was actually the &quot;Magic-Bird-Isiah&quot; era.  The truth is, Michael was just coming up and learning how to win while those three teams dominated (the Pistons in the later part of course).  When Michael started winning, it could easily be said that the Showtime era was over.  Jordan so dominated and changed the way the game was played that he really does deserve his own era.

*Consider this:  Isiah and HIS Pistons were the ONLY team to beat Jordan&#039;s Bulls, Magic&#039;s Lakers and Bird&#039;s Celtics in their prime years.  

Jordan&#039;s Bulls really beat old-guard teams that were past their respective primes.  However, Jordan was so incredible individually, even while learning how to win as a team that his eventual surpassing of those teams was accepted as inevitable.

LIE #2: ISIAH AND JOE DUMARS WERE PEERS ON THE COURT AND THE CORE OF THE PISTONS.

They were not.

Dumars, who I LOVE as a player and with whom I actually share a birthday, has benefited greatly from the media&#039;s disdain of Isiah Thomas.  He&#039;s one of the saints turned deity by history, lol.

Joe Dumars was Isiah&#039;s Pippen/Worthy/McHale.  He was the clear #2 and EVERYONE who watched knew it. INCLUDING HIM.

LIE #3: ISIAH AND JOHN STOCKTON WERE NEAR EQUALS ON THE COURT AND THE CORE OF THE PISTONS.

...Please.

This issue boils down to one very simple point, yet basketball revisionists choose to obscure it. If Stockton was so close to Isiah&#039;s equal or slightly his better, then why over 20 years later is the &quot;snub&quot; still considered an outrage?

No one is crying foul over Kevin Johnson not being on the team, right?

Look, if you were someone who seriously followed the NBA closely during that era (as I did), the FACT is that Stockton was no where near Isiah&#039;s caliber.  He just wasn&#039;t. Anyone who tries to argue differently is trying to push an agenda.  Stockton led the league in assists because that was the way the Jazz were structured.  Stockton set em up, Malone knocked em down.  And it worked very well.  In fact, Jerry Sloan is probably, in some weird way, the grandfather of the current NBA offense which is pick-n-roll to the 10th power now!

Now, you&#039;ll get some people who didn&#039;t really see these two play but will saber-metric the numbers and claim Stockton was better.  He wasn&#039;t.  Isiah was FAR more to the Pistons than Stockton was to the Jazz.  Isiah could simply...take...over...a...game.  Stockton couldn&#039;t.  Isiah could create not just for himself but for his teammates as well.

I saw the two play...Isiah was the best small man to ever play until Allen Iverson showed up.

&quot;The Snub&quot; is one of basketball&#039;s &quot;high crimes&quot;.  It marked a moment where the integrity of the game was upended by petty personal rivalries and politics.  Jordan robbed a deserving player of a special honor that could not be replaced. 

It&#039;s also a shame that 20 plus years later, basketball still hasn&#039;t admitted that. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The topic of this discussion is exactly why people fight so hard to make sure history, in all areas, is kept OUT of the hands of the revisionists.</p>
<p>Powers that be in the Sports Media have attempted to perpetrate a fraud over the past 20 to 25 years and revise NBA history.  They have tried to sell the unwitting public on the following 3 lies:<br />
 <br />
LIE #1) BASKETBALL IN THE 80s AND EARLY 90s WAS MAGIC-BIRD-JORDAN.  </p>
<p>It wasn&#8217;t.</p>
<p>Anytime you hear someone refer to that era as the &#8220;Magic Bird Jordan&#8221; era, you should correct them.  It was actually the &#8220;Magic-Bird-Isiah&#8221; era.  The truth is, Michael was just coming up and learning how to win while those three teams dominated (the Pistons in the later part of course).  When Michael started winning, it could easily be said that the Showtime era was over.  Jordan so dominated and changed the way the game was played that he really does deserve his own era.</p>
<p>*Consider this:  Isiah and HIS Pistons were the ONLY team to beat Jordan&#8217;s Bulls, Magic&#8217;s Lakers and Bird&#8217;s Celtics in their prime years.  </p>
<p>Jordan&#8217;s Bulls really beat old-guard teams that were past their respective primes.  However, Jordan was so incredible individually, even while learning how to win as a team that his eventual surpassing of those teams was accepted as inevitable.</p>
<p>LIE #2: ISIAH AND JOE DUMARS WERE PEERS ON THE COURT AND THE CORE OF THE PISTONS.</p>
<p>They were not.</p>
<p>Dumars, who I LOVE as a player and with whom I actually share a birthday, has benefited greatly from the media&#8217;s disdain of Isiah Thomas.  He&#8217;s one of the saints turned deity by history, lol.</p>
<p>Joe Dumars was Isiah&#8217;s Pippen/Worthy/McHale.  He was the clear #2 and EVERYONE who watched knew it. INCLUDING HIM.</p>
<p>LIE #3: ISIAH AND JOHN STOCKTON WERE NEAR EQUALS ON THE COURT AND THE CORE OF THE PISTONS.</p>
<p>&#8230;Please.</p>
<p>This issue boils down to one very simple point, yet basketball revisionists choose to obscure it. If Stockton was so close to Isiah&#8217;s equal or slightly his better, then why over 20 years later is the &#8220;snub&#8221; still considered an outrage?</p>
<p>No one is crying foul over Kevin Johnson not being on the team, right?</p>
<p>Look, if you were someone who seriously followed the NBA closely during that era (as I did), the FACT is that Stockton was no where near Isiah&#8217;s caliber.  He just wasn&#8217;t. Anyone who tries to argue differently is trying to push an agenda.  Stockton led the league in assists because that was the way the Jazz were structured.  Stockton set em up, Malone knocked em down.  And it worked very well.  In fact, Jerry Sloan is probably, in some weird way, the grandfather of the current NBA offense which is pick-n-roll to the 10th power now!</p>
<p>Now, you&#8217;ll get some people who didn&#8217;t really see these two play but will saber-metric the numbers and claim Stockton was better.  He wasn&#8217;t.  Isiah was FAR more to the Pistons than Stockton was to the Jazz.  Isiah could simply&#8230;take&#8230;over&#8230;a&#8230;game.  Stockton couldn&#8217;t.  Isiah could create not just for himself but for his teammates as well.</p>
<p>I saw the two play&#8230;Isiah was the best small man to ever play until Allen Iverson showed up.</p>
<p>&#8220;The Snub&#8221; is one of basketball&#8217;s &#8220;high crimes&#8221;.  It marked a moment where the integrity of the game was upended by petty personal rivalries and politics.  Jordan robbed a deserving player of a special honor that could not be replaced. </p>
<p>It&#8217;s also a shame that 20 plus years later, basketball still hasn&#8217;t admitted that. </p>
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		<title>By: Patrick Hayes</title>
		<link>http://www.pistonpowered.com/2012/08/isiah-thomas-dream-team-exclusion-due-to-michael-jordan-timing/comment-page-1/#comment-81901</link>
		<dc:creator>Patrick Hayes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Aug 2012 01:51:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pistonpowered.com/2012/08/isiah-thomas-dream-team-exclusion-due-to-michael-jordan-timing/#comment-81901</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Laettner was picked because he was clearly the best player in college basketball at the time. Shaq was the best NBA prospect in college basketball at the time. That&#039;s a huge, huge difference. The criteria for the college player they picked was simply &#039;best player in college basketball.&#039; I don&#039;t know if there&#039;s a player in my life I&#039;ve disliked more than Laettner, but the dude was one of the all-time great college players. He deserved to be there.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Well, he didn&#039;t &#039;deserve&#039; to be there. I think they should&#039;ve just picked 12 NBA guys. But if the idea was to pick 11 NBA guys and 1 college guy, then Laettner was unquestionably the college guy at the time.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Laettner was picked because he was clearly the best player in college basketball at the time. Shaq was the best NBA prospect in college basketball at the time. That&#8217;s a huge, huge difference. The criteria for the college player they picked was simply &#8216;best player in college basketball.&#8217; I don&#8217;t know if there&#8217;s a player in my life I&#8217;ve disliked more than Laettner, but the dude was one of the all-time great college players. He deserved to be there.</p>
<p>Well, he didn&#8217;t &#8216;deserve&#8217; to be there. I think they should&#8217;ve just picked 12 NBA guys. But if the idea was to pick 11 NBA guys and 1 college guy, then Laettner was unquestionably the college guy at the time.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris H</title>
		<link>http://www.pistonpowered.com/2012/08/isiah-thomas-dream-team-exclusion-due-to-michael-jordan-timing/comment-page-1/#comment-81867</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris H</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 12 Aug 2012 21:00:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pistonpowered.com/2012/08/isiah-thomas-dream-team-exclusion-due-to-michael-jordan-timing/#comment-81867</guid>
		<description>I didn&#039;t really watch college basketball at the time, but being from Michigan and watching the UofM final fours during the fab five timeframe I was familiar with Laettner, but that was because I had no idea who Shaq was.  After watching him during his rookie season I can&#039;t believe Shaq got left off of that team.  Yeah he never could shoot a jumper or a free throw, but he gave the dream team centers a rough time during his rookie year. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I didn&#8217;t really watch college basketball at the time, but being from Michigan and watching the UofM final fours during the fab five timeframe I was familiar with Laettner, but that was because I had no idea who Shaq was.  After watching him during his rookie season I can&#8217;t believe Shaq got left off of that team.  Yeah he never could shoot a jumper or a free throw, but he gave the dream team centers a rough time during his rookie year. </p>
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		<title>By: DamPenguin</title>
		<link>http://www.pistonpowered.com/2012/08/isiah-thomas-dream-team-exclusion-due-to-michael-jordan-timing/comment-page-1/#comment-81849</link>
		<dc:creator>DamPenguin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 12 Aug 2012 16:12:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pistonpowered.com/2012/08/isiah-thomas-dream-team-exclusion-due-to-michael-jordan-timing/#comment-81849</guid>
		<description>From a lifelong Pistons fan... Isiah was snubbed, no knock on Stockton (Hall of Famer, All-Time Assists leader) it just shows how good Zeke was.  But that wasn&#039;t the biggest snub on the Dream Team... the biggest snub was Christian Laettner over Shaq.  If Shaq was on that team there just
wouldn&#039;t be any more comparisons of who had the better team. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>From a lifelong Pistons fan&#8230; Isiah was snubbed, no knock on Stockton (Hall of Famer, All-Time Assists leader) it just shows how good Zeke was.  But that wasn&#8217;t the biggest snub on the Dream Team&#8230; the biggest snub was Christian Laettner over Shaq.  If Shaq was on that team there just<br />
wouldn&#8217;t be any more comparisons of who had the better team. </p>
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		<title>By: Max</title>
		<link>http://www.pistonpowered.com/2012/08/isiah-thomas-dream-team-exclusion-due-to-michael-jordan-timing/comment-page-1/#comment-81822</link>
		<dc:creator>Max</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 12 Aug 2012 08:59:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pistonpowered.com/2012/08/isiah-thomas-dream-team-exclusion-due-to-michael-jordan-timing/#comment-81822</guid>
		<description>John Stockton played from the age of 22 to 40 and wound up playing in 10 all star games, starting four of them and played a total of 197 minutes when all of the best players were on the court.  
Isiah Thomas played from the age of 20 to 32 and played in 11 all star games, starting 10 of them and played a total of 318 minutes.   This means Isiah practically averaged starters minutes throughout his entire career in all star games.   What does that tell you?  
There is no comparison regarding who was the bigger star.   As for better player? 
Even though Stockton played many more years, enjoyed a longer prime and played next to a much better player for his entire career than Isiah ever got to play with for a single season, Isiah won two more rings than zero, got to more finals, more conference finals and quite obviously posted many more legendary individual games in the playoffs.   
Tarsier I think said something in an earlier thread about other players not having the stage Isiah had as a defense of their not having big clutch resumes in the playoffs to compare with Isiah&#039;s.  The argument goes that without a great supporting cast, a player doesn&#039;t have a chance.   Well, Isiah was posting legendary all time playoff moments long before the Bad Boys.  In Stockton&#039;s endless career of consistent elite play, did he ever score 15 points in 90 seconds to tie a game in the playoffs and send it to overtime like Isiah did in 85?   Of course not.   He never even scored 35 points during an entire game.   Isiah could have scored 35 practically any night he wanted but for Stockton it was something of an impossibility--although I think it was a mental block.  In any case, what does that tell you? </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John Stockton played from the age of 22 to 40 and wound up playing in 10 all star games, starting four of them and played a total of 197 minutes when all of the best players were on the court. <br />
Isiah Thomas played from the age of 20 to 32 and played in 11 all star games, starting 10 of them and played a total of 318 minutes.   This means Isiah practically averaged starters minutes throughout his entire career in all star games.   What does that tell you? <br />
There is no comparison regarding who was the bigger star.   As for better player?<br />
Even though Stockton played many more years, enjoyed a longer prime and played next to a much better player for his entire career than Isiah ever got to play with for a single season, Isiah won two more rings than zero, got to more finals, more conference finals and quite obviously posted many more legendary individual games in the playoffs.   <br />
Tarsier I think said something in an earlier thread about other players not having the stage Isiah had as a defense of their not having big clutch resumes in the playoffs to compare with Isiah&#8217;s.  The argument goes that without a great supporting cast, a player doesn&#8217;t have a chance.   Well, Isiah was posting legendary all time playoff moments long before the Bad Boys.  In Stockton&#8217;s endless career of consistent elite play, did he ever score 15 points in 90 seconds to tie a game in the playoffs and send it to overtime like Isiah did in 85?   Of course not.   He never even scored 35 points during an entire game.   Isiah could have scored 35 practically any night he wanted but for Stockton it was something of an impossibility&#8211;although I think it was a mental block.  In any case, what does that tell you? </p>
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		<title>By: Max</title>
		<link>http://www.pistonpowered.com/2012/08/isiah-thomas-dream-team-exclusion-due-to-michael-jordan-timing/comment-page-1/#comment-81791</link>
		<dc:creator>Max</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Aug 2012 23:27:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pistonpowered.com/2012/08/isiah-thomas-dream-team-exclusion-due-to-michael-jordan-timing/#comment-81791</guid>
		<description>@Patrick---I read my comments and it is clear that I was blaming the writers for not giving Isiah all team awards.   However, Isiah not getting those awards is just about the only valid argument I can see for even having the thought that Isiah maybe shouldn&#039;t have made the team but what kills that argument is that Bird and Johnson did make the team.   If accomplishment was a basis, Isiah deserved inclusion doubly.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Patrick&#8212;I read my comments and it is clear that I was blaming the writers for not giving Isiah all team awards.   However, Isiah not getting those awards is just about the only valid argument I can see for even having the thought that Isiah maybe shouldn&#8217;t have made the team but what kills that argument is that Bird and Johnson did make the team.   If accomplishment was a basis, Isiah deserved inclusion doubly.</p>
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		<title>By: Max</title>
		<link>http://www.pistonpowered.com/2012/08/isiah-thomas-dream-team-exclusion-due-to-michael-jordan-timing/comment-page-1/#comment-81790</link>
		<dc:creator>Max</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Aug 2012 23:16:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pistonpowered.com/2012/08/isiah-thomas-dream-team-exclusion-due-to-michael-jordan-timing/#comment-81790</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t blame the media for his non-inclusion particularly.  I believe Jordan was the #1 factor by a mile and that Isiah didn&#039;t have any allies for a host of reasons.   However, the media didn&#039;t fully turn on him until Rodman&#039;s Bird comment and it has been one long free fall after that.   In 1988, Isiah was pushing for his name to be included in the top five and Stockton was just one of the young guard.   By 92, Isiah had proven himself on the court beyond a shadow of a doubt.  Isiah should have been the 4th player on the team overall and wasn&#039;t for politics.   Stockton had no better claim than KJ even other than Malone being an earlier invite.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t blame the media for his non-inclusion particularly.  I believe Jordan was the #1 factor by a mile and that Isiah didn&#8217;t have any allies for a host of reasons.   However, the media didn&#8217;t fully turn on him until Rodman&#8217;s Bird comment and it has been one long free fall after that.   In 1988, Isiah was pushing for his name to be included in the top five and Stockton was just one of the young guard.   By 92, Isiah had proven himself on the court beyond a shadow of a doubt.  Isiah should have been the 4th player on the team overall and wasn&#8217;t for politics.   Stockton had no better claim than KJ even other than Malone being an earlier invite.</p>
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		<title>By: Patrick Hayes</title>
		<link>http://www.pistonpowered.com/2012/08/isiah-thomas-dream-team-exclusion-due-to-michael-jordan-timing/comment-page-1/#comment-81787</link>
		<dc:creator>Patrick Hayes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Aug 2012 22:20:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pistonpowered.com/2012/08/isiah-thomas-dream-team-exclusion-due-to-michael-jordan-timing/#comment-81787</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;@Max:&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;I can take an argument for Isiah over Stockton seriously. Personally, in fact, I think Isiah was better, although it was pretty close.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;But what kills your argument is when you say insane things like this: &quot;the writers, who hated and underrated Isiah for living and still do, say.&quot;&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Sure, writers have biases. But to act like there wasn&#039;t support for and against Isiah&#039;s inclusion in &#039;92 is ridiculous. I highly suggest you read McCallum&#039;s book. There is a lot of interesting nuance in there, particularly about Daly&#039;s and McCloskey&#039;s unwillingness to fight for Isiah behind closed doors. It wasn&#039;t the media that kept Isiah off the Dream Team. It was a combination of the fact that Stockton had closed the gap enough between the two around the time of the selection to make picking him over Isiah less egregious than it would&#039;ve been a couple seasons prior and, more importantly, Isiah had zero allies, not even his own coach or GM, at the time. To blame the media is absurd.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Max:</p>
<p>I can take an argument for Isiah over Stockton seriously. Personally, in fact, I think Isiah was better, although it was pretty close.</p>
<p>But what kills your argument is when you say insane things like this: &#8220;the writers, who hated and underrated Isiah for living and still do, say.&#8221;</p>
<p>Sure, writers have biases. But to act like there wasn&#8217;t support for and against Isiah&#8217;s inclusion in &#8217;92 is ridiculous. I highly suggest you read McCallum&#8217;s book. There is a lot of interesting nuance in there, particularly about Daly&#8217;s and McCloskey&#8217;s unwillingness to fight for Isiah behind closed doors. It wasn&#8217;t the media that kept Isiah off the Dream Team. It was a combination of the fact that Stockton had closed the gap enough between the two around the time of the selection to make picking him over Isiah less egregious than it would&#8217;ve been a couple seasons prior and, more importantly, Isiah had zero allies, not even his own coach or GM, at the time. To blame the media is absurd.</p>
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		<title>By: Desolation Row</title>
		<link>http://www.pistonpowered.com/2012/08/isiah-thomas-dream-team-exclusion-due-to-michael-jordan-timing/comment-page-1/#comment-81786</link>
		<dc:creator>Desolation Row</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Aug 2012 22:01:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pistonpowered.com/2012/08/isiah-thomas-dream-team-exclusion-due-to-michael-jordan-timing/#comment-81786</guid>
		<description>This happened when I was 3. A few posts are cool, but might be about time to turn the page and move on from this &quot;drama&quot;...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This happened when I was 3. A few posts are cool, but might be about time to turn the page and move on from this &#8220;drama&#8221;&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Max</title>
		<link>http://www.pistonpowered.com/2012/08/isiah-thomas-dream-team-exclusion-due-to-michael-jordan-timing/comment-page-1/#comment-81783</link>
		<dc:creator>Max</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Aug 2012 21:04:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pistonpowered.com/2012/08/isiah-thomas-dream-team-exclusion-due-to-michael-jordan-timing/#comment-81783</guid>
		<description>Also. I don&#039;t think Isiah would have made the Dream Team during the 88-91 era either because the media and players had already turned Isiah into the NBA&#039;s top villain and never treated him with any decency or fairness from the moment he backed up Rodman&#039;s comments about Larry Bird being overrated because he was white.   In my judgement, Isiah&#039;s snubs for the all team awards were about 90 percent due to that incident and I even think the controversy was the 2nd most important reason he was left off the Dream Team.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Also. I don&#8217;t think Isiah would have made the Dream Team during the 88-91 era either because the media and players had already turned Isiah into the NBA&#8217;s top villain and never treated him with any decency or fairness from the moment he backed up Rodman&#8217;s comments about Larry Bird being overrated because he was white.   In my judgement, Isiah&#8217;s snubs for the all team awards were about 90 percent due to that incident and I even think the controversy was the 2nd most important reason he was left off the Dream Team.</p>
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