Comments on: Isiah Thomas was better than Kevin Johnson

By: C-Foe

C-Foe — Fri, 03 Aug 2012 13:22:55 +0000

Tarsier… Wilt, Russell, and Kareem all played the Center position, so two can’t be considered GOAT right? My point isn’t to nitpick your statement but to point out that it’s a subjective argument so it’s hard to justify “fair”. The criteria that’s used is not consistent. Big media outlets (read ESPN) love to shove this down our throats to promote players they love. Russell is considered GOAT because of his defensive dominance and the multiple championships with Boston, but many would argue Kareem and Wilt were better players based on PPG stats (Wilt – 30 PPG, Kareem – 24 PPG, Russell – 15 PPG). Even in this blog you see that writers use different criteria when deciding if Isiah is better than Kevin Johnson. Sometimes individual stats are used, sometimes it’s championships, all-star appearances, etc. From the PG position, Isiah can be considered one of the Greatest of All Time because of all-around accomplishments and so can Stockton and Robertson because as you established you can have multiple players from one position.

By: Max

Max — Thu, 02 Aug 2012 20:28:23 +0000

Also, on Stockton versus Payton. I get the longevity issue but winning needs to count for something too and the Sonic Jazz series in the 90s seemed like decisive knockout blows for Payton in my mind regarding who was the better player. People used to debate who was better between Olajuwon and Robinson and many were so blind that Robinson won MVP. Well, no one ever had the debate again when Olajuwon smoked Robinson in the playoffs and ended the argument for all time. Longevity had nothing to do with it. Once they met in the playoffs and Olajuwon absolutely dominated him, it was over. That is how I feel about Payton because he dominated Stockton with his size and athleticism, took him out of his game, constantly trapped him and made him give up the ball. Having seen it, I could never say Stockton was better than Payton.

By: Max

Max — Thu, 02 Aug 2012 06:29:16 +0000

Frazier is the only player other than Isiah that deserves the lion share for all of his titles as the team’s best player. He’s underrated as he would have gotten a lot more assists by the way they later tracked them and he’s probably the second best defensive guard in the whole top 10. He’s also a player who stepped up under presure, had great size, was a complete and had no weaknesses. Why exactly do you say I ranked him too high. Slam Mag named him 36 overall in their top 500 all time and placed him between Kidd and Payton amongst point guards.

By: tarsier

tarsier — Thu, 02 Aug 2012 04:55:56 +0000

Frazier is much too high. Stockton is much too low. And I certainly don’t expect that Rose, Rondo, Westbrook, and Williams will all be in the top 10. But I’m betting at least one of them makes it and at least one more is debatable/on the cusp (which is pretty much the same as what I said earlier: “making solid cases for the top ten”).

Payton in his prime may have been better than Stockton in his. May have been, mind you, not definitely was. But longevity has to count for something. And Stockton’s prime lasted forever.

By: tarsier

tarsier — Thu, 02 Aug 2012 04:50:49 +0000

Paul doesn't hit people or do physical violence. he is more of the Kobe variety--referred to as a "ruthless assassin" or some such because of the way he plays. Kobe is typically considered to be cut from the same cloth as MJ and even he has acknowledged that CP3 is exactly the same way. http://thetweetwatch.com/Detail/Status/158673434958766080 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WgQAbbsdM9c

By: tarsier

tarsier — Thu, 02 Aug 2012 04:44:10 +0000

I ignored the intent of what you were saying? Did you read my first paragraph? I completely agreed with you. Then I just went on to point out that a detail you included was errant. It doesn’t invalidate your argument or take away from the fact that I had already agreed with your main point. I just wanted to point out your misconception because it bugs me when people essentially put words in others’ mouths.

As for the primary difference between HOF probability and best player: besides the fact that HOF probability obviously only takes into account stats and only NBA stats at that, I believe, it is a predictor not a judge. This is like the difference between if I write a list of who I expect to be on the all-NBA first, second, and third teams and if I write a list of who I think should be on them. Most of the time, those two won’t be the same.

I apologize if I came off as trying to dismiss your point on a technicality. I thought it was clear from my first paragraph that that was not my intent.

By: Max

Max — Thu, 02 Aug 2012 02:10:59 +0000

TOP 10 PGs
1. Magic Johnson
2. Oscar Robertson
3. Jerry West – put up the assists, handled the ball and was of a height that he’d mostly likely play the spot in any era that didn’t just call them guards.
4. Isiah Thomas
5. Bob Cousy
6. Walt Frazier
7. Jason Kidd
8. Gary Payton – Watch Payton in his prime versus Stockton in his prime and tell me you are picking Stockon. Pull out the archives, I dare you.
9. John Stockton
10. Chris Paul — I can see him getting past Kidd, Payton and Stockton but not the top 6 and Rose, Rondo, Westbrook and the like will never crack the top 10.

By: Max

Max — Thu, 02 Aug 2012 02:02:36 +0000

I don’t know how to convince you but everyone who played Jordan, with a few exceptions, were terrified of him and it was both a measure of his greatness and a big asset. This was not about standard champion personality but who were the fiercest of competitors. I’d take Duncan’s personality over the alpha cold blooded killer one any day because things would be more harmonious but notice Duncan never won two in a row.
To finish up, Paul doesn’t compare as a fierce competitor with John Stockton because he never punches a big in the solar plexus when they are not ready for it as the run down the court like Stockton did a few dozen times. Once players knew he would do it when they and the refs weren’t looking, they had to pay attention to him all the time. He was like a little Laimbeer and they don’t come fiercer. Paul is like a ballet dancer compared to Stockton.

By: Max

Max — Thu, 02 Aug 2012 01:50:06 +0000

You completely ignored the meat and intent of what I wrote to priggishly focus on a detail that was almost like a throwaway on my part and isn’t so far off anyway. When I wrote, “and thus” I was clearly, as far as I was concerned, stating that a HOF probability monitor is like a gauge of who the NBA best players ever were in my interpretation, but you are right that the site does not state anything to the effect. However, what is the metric if not a measure of who had the best NBA career with their stats, height (?) and accomplishments as the factors? The point wasn’t a priggish one on my part at all since I was casting such a wide net. The numbers say Reggie Miller is far from deserving according to the metric so I wasn’t using it to determine the players at the top where near delineation would be required. A prig is someone who irritates by rigid adherence to narrow properties…………and I wasn’t severely misquoting anyone.

By: tarsier

tarsier — Wed, 01 Aug 2012 19:23:04 +0000

I’m not sure Paul belongs int he top 5 yet. Although he certainly will by the time his career is over. But by then D-Will, Rose, Rondo, Westbrook, and maybe one or two others will be making solid cases for the top ten too. And then there’s also Parker, Billups, and Iverson. We really are in a golden age of PGs.