Comments on: Scottie Pippen didn’t want Isiah Thomas on Dream Team

By: Dano

Dano — Tue, 19 Jun 2012 02:21:36 +0000

It’s fairly difficult to compare Grant hill to Scottie Pippen from a statistical standpoint. Do you think Grant Hill’s stats would have been better or worse had he been playing for the Chicago Bulls in the 90s, instead of being far and away the best player on some dismal Pistons teams?

By: oats

oats — Mon, 11 Jun 2012 18:26:09 +0000

This isn’t sound logic. Declaring someone the best player on the team is in fact an individual accolade, so if individual accolades mean nothing then Pippen is a much better player than Thomas. Three times as good in fact. For that matter, if individual accolades truly mean nothing, then Darko is as good as Chauncey Billups and Ben Wallace while being better than Stockton, Malone, or Barkley. Robert Horry is also much better than Thomas. If we are going to acknowledge that individual accolades actually do count, then every accomplishment of Pippen’s has to be looked at. The fact that he was a very good player, a perfect complement to Jordan, and one of the best defensive players of his generation are all relevant. So is the fact that he was integral to 6 championship teams.

Since Pippen was really only the best player on his team while in his prime for one season, then the standard you are setting by knocking him not winning as the man on his team is that he must win 100% of the time he is the best player on the team and in his athletic prime. With that standard, no one is any good. Thomas certainly didn’t win it all 100% of the time. Pippen really only got one shot at winning as the star player, and making any statements about how good he is based off that one year is totally unfair. Maybe in time, or with a slightly better roster around him he wins a championship.

Look at that 93-94 roster, it isn’t very good. Horace Grant was good, BJ Armstrong could score ok but wasn’t a very complete player, and Steve Kerr shot a high percentage but didn’t shoot much and scored only 8.6 pts/gm. Those were the 3 next best players on that team, unless you want to argue the merits of a terribly inefficient Kukoc scoring 10.8 pts/gm. For that team to be any good at all is a testament to just how good Pippen really was. That team won by sharing the ball and playing good defense. Pippen led the team in assists and was their best defensive player. He carried that team. To complain about Pippen not winning with that team is absurd. Besides, what did Jordan ever win without Pippen? That argument can go both ways, but everyone acknowledges the absurdity of it when used against Jordan. It’s still not a good way to judge Pippen. The Jordan led teams were better than the Pippen team because Jordan had Pippen as a teammate.

By: detroitniner

detroitniner — Mon, 11 Jun 2012 16:37:02 +0000

@ Dano – Pippen won nothing w/o Jordan on his team. Individual accolades mean nothing. Championships mean it all. Zeke was his team’s best player. Pippen was not, until Jordan left. Jordan was like Superman. Does Superman’s sidekick get props for doing something if Superman is always around to make things happen. No. Zeke was like Batman. No one really likes him but he gets the job done and you have to respect that. Shut the frak up Pippen and take some Immodium AD for that runny mouth and Bayer for that Bad Boys headache. Curious how you never had a another one during a NBA game again. Hmmm?

By: detroitniner

detroitniner — Mon, 11 Jun 2012 16:25:51 +0000

Zeke is and will always be my favorite basketball player and favorite Piston. What all of those guys did was politic him off of the Dream Team. Pippen did nothing without Jordan, even playing with Barkley and Olajuwon. He’s a coat-tailer and did not have enough PULL in the league to keep Zeke off of the Dream Team. That honor goes Magic and Jordan. Jordan didn’t like Zeke because they were the SAME PERSON: all ego and domineering. Watch Jordan’s HOF induction speech for proof. Magic was the only person that could have gotten Zeke on the team but he was too busy kissing Jordan’s Nike’s too make that happen. Magic and Zeke were tight. They kissed before every game when they played in The Finals but all of that changed when Zeke beat him. Zeke wanted what Magic had was ready to ALL that it took. Magic couldn’t handle that and still can’t and trying to cover it all up in the book he wrote with Bird that he was mad at Zeke for questioning how he got HIV? Hell, WE ALL DID!!!! Zeke beat ‘em all with smile on his face and bad tidings in his heart because he wanted to win. Frak the Dream Team and all it stands for because the BEST PLAYERS WERE NOT ON IT. Politics at its best!

By: Mark

Mark — Mon, 11 Jun 2012 13:05:38 +0000

What happened to covering the combine on here? After doing all those long write-ups on all the prospects every day, leading up to the draft, and all the lottery selection show coverage, I thought you guys would have had wall-to-wall combine coverage this weekend. There was lots of interesting tidbits related to the Pistons prospects and not a peep on here.

You guys do a great job keeping up every day, and are more than deserving of days off though. Was just curious as it was a pretty big new weekend, compared to the normal off-season malaise.

By: tarsier

tarsier — Mon, 11 Jun 2012 09:09:04 +0000

You’re right, I forgot to mention that for Hondo. That was my bad. I often make mistakes, but the message remains the same. There have only been a handful of better SFs ever than Pippen.

By: tarsier

tarsier — Mon, 11 Jun 2012 09:07:15 +0000

As I said, his best statistical year was 93-94. Both players obviously contributed way more than just what their stats say. But it is worth bearing in mind that stats are primarily about offense. Hill was no slouch on defense, but anyone would have said his offensive value outweighed his defensive value. The opposite would be said of Pippen.

My point was never that Pippen would wipe the floor with Hill. Merely that you are wrong when you say he came into the league a better player than Pippen ever was.

Also, I hardly remember the stats off the top of my head, so I looked them up. And I did screw up in that regard as I accidentally looked at Hill’s dreb column instead of treb column. So that probably makes enough of a difference to shift over the best statistical season of each into Hill’s favor. But again, not by a landslide or anything.

How was Hill a much better scorer? He had one season over 22 ppg. Most of his prime, he was around 21 ppg. Most of Pippen’s prime, he was around 19 ppg. Playing next to Jordan is more than enough to explain that 2 point discrepancy. Hill was not a better rebounder. he rebounded at a better rate for two seasons. So his rebounding peak was higher, but his average rebounding through his prime seasons was lower.

Like I said, I don’t know if I agree, but I certainly can’t make a strong case against the idea that at their primes, Hill was the better player of the two. That’s a totally reasonable statement. But he did not best Pippen’s near MVP season numbers for 5 years. Each of those 5 years, he bested Pippen’s numbers in at least one category, often two. But look at whatever stats you want (simple or advanced) as long as you look at the whole set and not just one thing. Their numbers were comparable throughout their primes. Pippen has the edge overall because his prime lasted longer, he got championships, and he was the better defender which doesn’t show up much in stats (but what stats it does show itself in, blocks and steals, he killed Hill on).

By: Max

Max — Mon, 11 Jun 2012 04:05:18 +0000

Funny how you don’t give Hondo the bump for being part of the greatest dynasty in all of sports and then winning after the dynasty was over and the team had rebuilt itself.
And Worthy was far superior to Pippen on offense and didn’t have an ego that needed pacifying.

By: Max

Max — Mon, 11 Jun 2012 04:00:54 +0000

You don’t argue fairly and leave out relevant numbers.
Grant Hill averaged close to 10 rebounds a game in year 2 which Pippen has never done so how do you just leave that out? Hill was a much better scorer, a better passer and a better rebounder.
Hill entered the league and scored right away at the level of Pippen and peaked and close to 26 a game which Pippen never approached. Hill also averaged around 7 assists a game for three straight years from his 2nd to 4th year and Pippen never averaged 7 assists a game either.
And Hill’s best year was 00 btw and he was getting better every year, whatever the numbers say, until he left Detroit.

By: tarsier

tarsier — Mon, 11 Jun 2012 02:33:54 +0000

But since you say all of years 2-6 were better, let’s look at it year-by-year:

Year 2: half an assist more for Hill, much lower points, blocks, steals, FG% (advantage Pippen–easily)
Year 3: one assist more for Hill, somewhat lower points, rebounds, blocks, much lower steals (advantage Pippen–but not by so much)
Year 4: was Hill significantly better in any way? better stats across the board for Pippen except .4 lower apg (big advantage for Pippen again)
Year 5: comparable stats to Pippen’s but significantly higher assists with significantly lower rebounds and steals (small advantage Pippen)
Year 6: Hill has higher scoring than Pippen but significantly lower rebounds and steals (advantage Pippen)

Which of these years was better than Pippen’s 93-94 season? And more importantly, how was it better? Hill got more assists but tended to be beaten in most other categories. Now, I recognize that it is unfair to compare all his seasons to Pippen’s best season ever, but you were the one who claimed Hill had 5 seasons better than it. I just don’t see how. Hill’s best year statistically was his third season.

Hill 96-97 vs Pippen 93-94:
points: Pippen by 2.4
rebounds: Pippen by 0.5
assists: Hill by 1.1
steals: Pippen by 1.3
blocks: Pippen by 0.3
FG%: Hill by 0.5%

I could see claiming Hill wins this matchup, but only by the slimmest of margins. And this was the single best season for Hill.