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Detroit Pistons #DraftDreams: Kendall Marshall

Info

  • Measurables: 6-foot-4, 195 pounds, sophomore guard from North Carolina
  • Key Stats: 8.1 points, 9.8 assists per game, 47 percent from the field and 35 percent from 3-point range
  • Projected: Top 15
  • Hickory High Similarity Score

Why I’m intrigued by this guy

Frequent commenter Mark brought up an interesting point in the comments over the weekend: what if the bigs that Pistons fans are currently debating the merits of are not really worth debating at all? What happens if the clear, definitive best player available at nine is a perimeter player? Now, Mark was making the case for hoping Perry Jones III is there, but it’s a valid point with a few players, including Kendall Marshall.

Now, I’m gonna save that small but vocal and excitable bunch in the comments some trouble: this post is not necessarily advocating that the Pistons should take Marshall and do something else with Brandon Knight. I don’t dislike Brandon Knight. In fact, I’m pretty fond of him. But Knight is actually a perfect example of what makes a player like Marshall so valuable. Knight came into last year’s draft and was picked in the lottery because he’s a point guard prospect — an athlete who still needs to learn the position but has the physical tools that would make him an elite player at that position if he ever combines the two. As we saw with Knight, he was sometimes dynamic and other times the learning curve was pretty obvious — he has a ways to go as a distributor, running a halfcourt offense and taking care of the ball, and those are not easy things to pick up on the fly. The Pistons are investing in him and hoping it pays off down the road. Marshall, on the other hand, is someone I believe will be highly sought after and climb into the lottery because he’s the rare point guard prospect these days who is a natural at the position, so the teaching element will be less of an investment. He’s a fantastic distributor. There are fewer and fewer of those in the league each season as the NBA point guard position has been trending towards more hybrid guard skillsets.

Pros for the Pistons

The biggest pro for Marshall in relation to the Pistons has nothing to do with him actually being on the Pistons. I really believe he’s a sleeper in this draft that some savvy team will grab earlier than he’s projected to go or even move up to get him. A couple of point guard needy teams — the Hornets and Blazers — are picking right after the Pistons. In fact, many draft experts have had Marshall going to the Blazers at 11 since the lottery order was announced. So if there’s another team out there that really falls in love with Marshall, the Pistons’ pick at nine is the perfect spot to try and move up to get him.

And, on the off chance the Pistons actually decided to draft Marshall? Well, as mentioned above, he’d immediately become the best distributor they’ve had in several seasons. He’d allow Knight and Rodney Stuckey to play off the ball more, and both of those guys are actually at their most effective off the ball (although the current hope is Knight will eventually grow into that distributor role). Lawrence Frank seemed to like a three guard rotation last year, and Marshall would be enough of a contrast to what Knight’s and Stuckey’s skills are that the Pistons could have a pretty dynamic backcourt attack. It’s highly unlikely, but Joe Dumars has never been afraid to take the best player regardless of positional need, so if he becomes convinced Marshall is the best guy at nine, he could theoretically take him and then figure out how the parts fit later. Marshall’s passing, ability to run an offense full-time, size for the point guard spot and ability to take care of the ball as well as hit from outside would all be big additions to the Pistons’ lineup. He’s also big for a point guard at 6-foot-4, potentially making the Pistons’ backcourt a difficult one to guard since all three primary guards would have good size. Marshall would create easy shots for everyone in Detroit’s lineup, and that’s a hugely valuable skill in today’s NBA, which has an abundance of shot-takers and a shrinking number of shot-creators.

Cons for the Pistons

Clearly, nearly everyone expects the Pistons to go big at nine because it’s an obvious, gaping hole on their roster. If they took a guard, no matter how talented, at nine, it would be an incredibly unpopular pick. Even if there’s a legit case that a player like Marshall could be better than those late lottery bigs and even if there’s a case I could make that Marshall wouldn’t be a bad addition (and he wouldn’t be), I’m not sure Dumars has the stomach for the ‘Dumars has lost it’ calls to get even louder (although, I think if Dumars picked Marshall, there would be some rejoicing in the advanced stats community, which has typically been the most vocal of the vocal Dumars critics the last few years).

What others are saying

Chad Ford:

No one has helped their draft stock more in March than Marshall. Yes, he broke his hand and was unable to play in the Sweet 16. But Carolina’s struggles without Marshall on the floor highlighted how important he was to the team. Marshall is the best passer in college basketball. He’s unselfish and makes everyone around him better. The questions for Marshall surround his lack of elite athleticism and his ability to guard the ultra quick point guards at the NBA level. Marshall also needs to improve his jump shot.

In a normal draft, a prospect like Marshall is probably a mid- to late-first round pick. However, this is a very weak point guard class and a number of teams in the lottery including the Utah Jazz, Phoenix Suns, New Orleans Hornets and Portland Trail Blazers all need point guards. Currently we have him ranked as the No. 2 point guard in his class behind Weber State’s Damian Lillard. Marshall’s ranked No. 17 on our Big Board but is projected to go five spots higher than that in our Mock Draft at No. 12 to the Hornets. He could go as high as No. 9 to the Jazz.

DraftExpress:

Marshall’s 10.7 assists per 40 minutes game adjusted this season rank the highest of any player in the history of our database (which goes back to 2001/2002). He’s also #1 all-time in Pure Point Ratio by a large margin, while his 3.51 Assist-Turnover Ratio ranks 3rd all-time..

When looking at Marshall’s game from an NBA perspective, his passing ability is clearly his greatest selling point, and it’s hard to overstate how good of a passer he is and how great a feel he has for managing a game.

In terms of point guard style, Marshall is a prototypical pass-first point guard taken to the extreme, as evidenced by his just 6.2 field-goal attempts per game in 32.9 minutes. He possesses an uncanny, second nature feel for the game, always instinctively playing with his head up and quickly moving the ball to the highest percentage scoring opportunity. Managing the game clearly comes very easy for him both in the half court and transition, as he looks as natural as any player in the country finding teammates for easy baskets.

What is the best thing Kendall Marshall does for his team?

Brett Friedlander (follow him on Twitter) covers the Atlantic Coast Conference on his ACC Insider blog for the Wilmington Star-News:

I’ve been covering college basketball for more than 25 years, and Kendall Marshall is one of the best — if not THE best — I’ve seen at distributing the ball to his teammates in places in which they can be most effective. He’s not the quickest point guard around, but he more than makes up for it with great vision and an even better feel for the game. While his offensive game is still a work in progress, Marshall has the ability to get to the basket when defenses try to take away his passing lanes and he started showing a greater willingness to take the open 18-20 foot jumper as the season went on. The kid isn’t a great athlete, but he’s a top point guard prospect, a leader and a winner — as evidenced by what his absence meant to North Carolina in the NCAA tournament.

Previously

55 Comments

  • Jun 4, 20129:41 am
    by Gregoire

    Reply

    Just an option when trading down for 2 first-rounders (very unlikely) and getting Marshall and maybe Leonard…

  • Jun 4, 20129:56 am
    by Roit

    Reply

    If we moved down our pick, Leonard was a good choice

  • Jun 4, 201212:12 pm
    by Mitch

    Reply

    This is something I’ve thought about ever since winning the lottery became unlikely.  Obviously a hypothetical, but “what if” we take Marshall with the pick and get the “true Point guard” that everyone wants.  Then see if we can swing Knight for a mid-first, maybe to a team like NO, and draft a big like Leonard.  Then we get a PG and big to pair with Monroe.  Once again just a dream scenario, but pretty cool to think about.

  • [...] part of their DraftDreams series, Patrick Hayes of PistonPowered looks at North Carolina point guard Kendall Marshall. Most pundits have the Pistons going with a big man [...]

  • Jun 4, 20121:34 pm
    by rick

    Reply

    Man I dont know why everyone is screaming for Leonard or Zeller in the first round as a Piston. Im not getting a big white guy unless he is the next coming of Kevin Love. Im not picking these guys because they are 7’0 tall and did nothing partculary well hence why the Pistons are looking at the foreigner from previous post. I dont want the next coming of Eric Montross period point blank. Being 7’0 in college does not translate to immediate impact on the NBA level. So whatever everyone is thinking in terms of skills I just dont see it from either player. I would grab a big in the second round and take the best player available not a project(Leonard) or a player who has reached his ceiling already(Zeller). They were solid in college but since when did that always translate well to the NBA ? I think people are overlooking size for actual skill and longevity. At 9 I want an impact player and I think Detroit can get that instead of reaching for size. I mean OKC got Perkins in a trade they didnt draft him but they did draft Ibaka, who played overseas a year before joining team. They also acquired Sefolosa in a trade with the the Bulls. It is my opinion to draft best player available then if someone wants to trade with you at least now you have the assests to do so.  Any other year guys like Zeller and Leonard wouldnt get a sniff in the lottery and now because Detroit needs a big we have to reach for one. Im sorry, but this will get the team in trouble down the road and will continue to toil in mediocrity.

    • Jun 5, 20121:37 pm
      by Marvin Jones

      Reply

      Maybe because both guys are actually talented. You seem to think that every big white guy is Montross and that’s a really stupid statement to make. Kevin Love was a pudgy white guy who changed his body and put in the work to become better, why couldn’t Leonard or Zeller do the same thing. Really dumb response.

      • Jun 5, 20124:36 pm
        by rick

        Reply

        Dude get over yourself and your non-evaluation skill of knowing talent. Who did Leonard actually outplay in the Big Ten that leads me to believe he is worth waiting on as a professional? Im waiting….. Everybody wants to be an armchair Gm until that pick actually happens and the player doesnt pan out. Then every so called expert has buyers remorse and so forth. Then we hear the catcalls for Joe D’s job, when you dont have to deal with the shit accept be like the typical fan and say some dumb shit “like we shouldve drafted this other guy instead of that guy. When in fact you wanted the same guy that got picked just not man enough to admit it. I’m man enough to say I dont want a garbage big men who did absolutely nothing impressive in college  besides show bits of potential, which is the same thing Darko did. For you though Ill leave Montross outt and I will give you another flameout, Paul Davis , who was just soooo talented and where is he now? So dont me what my statement is when its clear as day. Dont knock me cause I dont like what you like.

         Now you want to compare Leonard and Zeller to Love whose father actually played in the NBA? Cmon man get a clue before you attack me and my opinion. I dont see any upisde in Zeller because he is no better than Hansborough, and Leonard just seems very fragile as a player mentally.

        • Jun 5, 20124:58 pm
          by Marvin Jones

          Reply

          Dude you can compare anybody to anybody but that comparison doesn’t make them that person so how about not comparing Leonard to anyone. The fact is the kid 7 feet, athletic, a good rebounder and shotblocker, can run the floor, can hit the 15 footer, has some post moves and is not afraid to bang in the post.  I don’t have to compare him to anyone, those are skills that the Pistons need and as long as Joe is satisfied that he will work hard on his game then the rewards outweigh the risk. You sound like you’re probably descibing yourself as an armchair GM because you don’t know me well enough to say what I would do. 

    • Jun 5, 20122:23 pm
      by oats

      Reply

      On top of what Marvin said, it’s also a pretty racist argument. Actually, that is just being more blunt about why it is stupid. I mean, what did trashing white basketball players really add to the argument? It really makes it easy to dismiss everything you have to say, especially on a Pistons site. One of the most beloved Pistons of all time is Bill Laimbeer, who just happens to be a big white guy.

      • Jun 5, 20124:44 pm
        by rick

        Reply

        Whats stupid is the assumption that I’m a black man making that statement and in my opinion it is hardly racist.  As far as you know I’m white so get a clue dude. Dont try and co-sign on his behalf because you agree with his assertion, hopefully he’s a big boy and can defend himself.
        Now here is my statement again for those who cannot take the time to read in full context.
        “Im not getting a big white guy unless he is the next coming of Kevin Love.” Now in that statement tell me where does the racism exist.  You probably are too dumb to even know that it could be I am biased for guys who actually made a significant impact on their prosepective team more so than racist. I said I would take Love and the last time I checked he’s white so I just think you two need to get a clue before you start casting stones.

        • Jun 5, 20124:56 pm
          by oats

          Reply

          I never said you were black. I don’t care what race you are. Racism is discriminating on the basis of race. Saying you wouldn’t draft a big white guy is clearly doing that. You are making a judgement on a player’s ability to play basketball based on his race. You can totally be a white guy racist against white guys. As for drafting Love, making a single exception doesn’t change the fact that you are saying you don’t trust white guys to play basketball. Yeah, I’ll say it again, that is blatantly racist.

          • Jun 5, 20125:33 pm
            by rick

            I dont want any big slow footed white guy that did not make a impact on his team not named Kevin Love. I dont care about what you or your butt buddy thinks because you are obvioulsy white and wouldnt know what racism is unless it hit you in the head. Ive heard white commentators on Espn and TNT make the same statement and laugh about it because thats the way the league is. You two on the other hand are out here trying to lead some sort of crusade about what racism is and dont know shit. It was a blanket statement that you chose to take to another level for no reason other than to serve your own agenda. I dont care because its my opinion and wont change because you two have hurt feelings. Im sitting here with my white fiance and she actually thinks you guys are hilarious and also very sentsitive considering their was a movie called “white men cant jump” but I guess that was racist as well. You guys are too funny considering your rationale. Too me its a hopeless argument because the so called pundits have said the same thing over and over again. Another thing you can totally be is stupid for assuming some shit about someone you dont even know. You see I made my observation watching games you made your statement because I said I dont want a big white guy. With me at least I observed, with you two, you guys half ass read and took what you wanted from it and ran with it. Funny

        • Jun 5, 20125:04 pm
          by oats

          Reply

          By the way, I’m not just co-signing the statement, I’m making it clear what I think is wrong with what you said. I also don’t know why you thought I was assuming your were black, but that assumption definitely says something about how you view racism. There are a bunch of different versions of racism, and the white guy who thinks white guys are bad at sports is a pretty common version of it. I know you didn’t go quite that far, but I do think it’s important to be aware of what you are saying. You are saying white guys are inherently more likely to fail in the NBA due to their whiteness, or at least the big white guys are. That is clearly discriminating against a player due to his race, and is racist.

        • Jun 5, 20125:21 pm
          by oats

          Reply

          One last point, if your problem is with Leonard’s production, then just say so. You didn’t say that, you said it was because he was white. I’m going with what you gave me, and you gave me white as the reason not to take him. I have no idea why you’d have taken Love. Maybe you love the Beach Boys and dig Kevin Love’s uncle being in the band. Why is the onus on me to figure out you were complaining about Leonard being unproductive? I went with what you gave me to work with.

          • Jun 5, 20125:46 pm
            by rick

            Why you take it so personal? Had Patrick or Dan said something like I was outta line then I’d re evaluate what I post, but seeing how they did’nt which isnt to say they actually agree but the fact that they didnt says enough to me. I find discriminatiing when ass clowns say they dont want to draft a kid because he is skinny or because Daye was skinny. Look up what racist and discrimination is then talk to me about my statement. Im not racist all I did was discriminate agaisnt atll white guys nothing more or less. Like I said you and your butt buddy took it to another level for what reason I dont know. The Leonard/Zeller fan club, maybe, I dont know. Never said I dont like white people or hate them( thats racist ) and thats why I’m laughing at you because the both of you seem to lazy enough to understand the difference between racism and discrimination. All I did was say i didnt want them because they as white guys are atypical of what usually is in the NBA, unless you are a Love someone with special skills.

          • Jun 5, 20126:30 pm
            by oats

            Ok, let’s start from the top. I happen to be part white, part asian, and in no way does that impact what I do or don’t know about racism. I also happened to go to a school that was 88% black, and the vast majority of them loved on the wrong side of the tracks. I am actually from the area that Michael Vick and Allen Iverson are from. The ESPN 30 for 30 documentary on Iverson did a decent job alluding to the racial tension in this area. It is a real, almost palpable thing, and frankly racism is something you are bound to run into if you live in this area. I happen to have seen racism first hand in many different forms first hand. Admittedly a sizable portion of that was being directed at friends of mine, but I caught some of it too. I also can claim to having been stopped DWB. I had a bunch of friends in the backseat, and front passenger seat, and they were the only people the cop was likely to have spotted in the vehicle. Admittedly Driving While Black is a relatively minor form of racism in the grand scheme of things, but it’s something I’ve been through. I’ve been spit on by black people calling me a cracker, which admittedly doesn’t have quite the same negativity attached to it that words hurled at black people do, but given the scariness of the situation I feel like it’s worth bringing up. Some people thought I was in the wrong bar, and took exception to it. Based on the brass knuckles some of them were wearing, I wisely got the hell out of there.
             
             
            Okay, those are my credentials since you feel it is relevant. I assure you it isn’t. There is big bad racism, and that is admittedly not what you were guilty of. Look, I don’t care what race you are, and I really don’t care that you have a white fiancee. That’s because there is this lesser racism, which might be even more insidious. The idea that you can tell something about a guy based on looking at him. That is what I’m talking about. You weren’t slamming Leonard and Zeller for being mediocre basketball players, or they aren’t productive (although Zeller is really productive), or for having limited skills. At least not entirely. You slammed them for being white, and that is simple minded thinking. Their race has nothing to do with their basketball skill, and frankly shouldn’t enter the discussion. Talk about their production, or their physical limitations, or whatever. You didn’t do that though. I mean, you said you don’t see the skill for them, but it was immediately after you pointed out that you don’t want white guys on your team. It reads like you aren’t seeing the skill because you don’t think white guys are skilled.
             
            It is really important to be careful with what you say. You are propagating the myth that race says something concrete about a person. Pointing out that Kevin Love is an exception doesn’t change that fact either. That’s like back in the day when a slave owner would show off his house slave and tell everyone about the black kid who could actually read. Obviously my analogy is overstating the issue, but the point is recognizing an exception doesn’t change the fact that the underlying premise is that white people are worse at basketball. As for the analysts, I’m not able to talk directly to them the way I can talk directly to you so they are getting this directed at them. What they are saying is just as wrong as what you are saying. In the movie you referenced, the characters make money off of the fact that people assume white guys are worse at basketball. I repeat, they are taking advantage of other people’s racism to make money. All of this ties into the idea that there is a fundamental difference between whites and blacks that you can count on reliably. This myth is harmful, and you are verifying to others that you think it isn’t just a myth with what you said. This makes it easier for people to justify other, more harmful racist thoughts. That’s why I called it out, because that type of thinking shouldn’t fly. It probably wouldn’t happen to readers on this forum, or at least I hope it wouldn’t. Still, I firmly believe the only way to effectively combat these attitudes is to call them out when they raise their ugly heads. That’s what I’m doing.
             
            I’d also like to say that I read, and comprehended everything you said. I also know what racism is, and I know what discrimination is. Racism is a form of discrimination by the way. Like any other form of discrimination, there are varying degrees of it. Seriously, look it up in any dictionary, they always have a few different definitions. One of them is always “prejudice or discrimination based on race.” Your point wasn’t lost on me either.  My comment is about the part of what you said that I fervently object to, and I say this because it’s a real problem. Maybe I’m talking to a brick wall, but I’m saying this anyways. Maybe someone else reads it and gets what I’m saying, and maybe not. Still, I firmly believe that the first step is try to make a difference, even if it is ultimately futile.
             
            By the way, you most definitely were not pointing out how few white guys there are in the league. That didn’t factor into what you said. You said you don’t want to draft a white guy. That is two very different things. That’s like if a few years ago someone said they wouldn’t draft a black quarterback because there weren’t many of those in the NFL, or hire a black coach in football, or hire a black GM. Does that make it more obvious why it is racist? I hope so. Don’t draft the white guy is totally playing into the mindset that white’s and black’s are inherently different, and that is a big deal.
             
            As long as we’re on the subject, drop the homophobic butt buddy stuff. I don’t know Marvin personally, we definitely aren’t gay lovers, and that is really f***ing offensive. I know this site isn’t big on profanity, but that is something that really deserves it. Deriding me by calling me a homosexual is not okay. Homosexuality is nothing to be ashamed of, and isn’t something that should be used as an insult. That is not okay on any level, and is actually way worse than your vaguely racist comment earlier. Using it that way implies homosexuals are somehow less than their heterosexual counterparts, and that is wrong on so many levels. I know it’s the internet and all, but come on.

          • Jun 5, 20126:35 pm
            by oats

            *lived on the wrong of the tracks… Probably other typos in there, but in my defense this is a topic that I get riled up about.

          • Jun 5, 20129:49 pm
            by Patrick Hayes

            Wow, did this convo certainly devolve. Dan makes the calls on over the line comments, so I’ll let him address this thing later, but just wanted to quickly say a few things:

            - There are several valid reasons to not be sold on Leonard as a prospect. Him being white isn’t one of them. Yes, the modern NBA landscape is littered with plodding, low-skilled, white big men taken way too high in the draft. As a white guy, I can laugh at harmless jokes at the expense of such players. I would say that Leonard is not in that category, though. He’s not a plodder. He’s fairly fleet-footed and athletic for his size. He’s just not highly skilled and there are questions about how motivated he is to get better. As Sop said above, BJ Mullens is a pretty good comparison, and not b/c both are white. Similar backgrounds, similar athleticism, similar lack of refined skill and similar questions about the motivation of each. But seriously, if anything, don’t be leery of reaching for Leonard because he’s white and so were a collection of stiffs who were drafted way too high. Be leery that he’s a low-skilled big man. Teams always, always, always reach for size, regardless of race. If it’s size with skills, that’s great. But more often than not, reaching based on positional need is always a bad idea and it rarely pans out.

            - Semi-off topic, but Rick’s comment — “white guys are atypical of what usually is in the NBA, unless you are a Love someone with special skills” — is pretty funny to me considering the player in this year’s draft who most closely resembles Love’s skillset is Sullinger, who is not white.

            - The ‘butt buddy’ thing is crude, offensive and unnecessary. I’m not a prude about language here and resort to occasional immature retorts myself when provoked, but one of the things I really, really like about PistonPowered’s comments section is that Dan and I don’t have to really censor or police it for stuff like this very often. People fight, people argue, people yell sometimes when they disagree, but by and large, we’ve never had the problems with juvenile name-calling and such that plague places like Yahoo, ESPN, MLive comments sections. People here are passionate and disagree, sometimes vehemently, but instances like this are really very rare, and that’s something Dan and I both appreciate it.

            Now, as I said above, some things in that thread clearly veer off the tracks, so don’t be surprised if Dan edits a couple of these posts to remove some personal attacks. All three of the commenters interacting here — oats, Marvin and Rick — have been valuable members of the comments here for a long time. Wouldn’t want a basketball discussion that derailed into some personal and non-basketball stuff to make any of you not want to comment here.

            For now, let’s all just take a breath, move on to different conversations and agree that no one wants Meyers Leonard (I kid, I kid).

  • Jun 4, 20121:59 pm
    by DG

    Reply

    While I think actually actually drafting and retaining Marshall for the Pistons would be more of a luxury than a need (bigger needs at C and SF), Marshall would be the exact type of guard that would give the Pistons a top level three guard rotation.

    I am in agreement that I also think Marshall will be a star — he’s got a special skill that sets him apart.  I also like the idea of trading down, especially if the bigs we are interested in are gone or it’s too early to draft them.  Marshall and Rivers are both players I think will move up and teams will target.

    Could the Pistons trade down with Boston at 20 and 21 and end up with Melo and Nicholson?  I think that would be a helluva draft for the Pistons.  Would Houston be interested?  Maybe they could move into the range for Leonard if that were the case.

    I can’t get myself to fall in love with either Henson or Perry Jones because of their tweener status, but those guys are probably the best options likely to be left that meets the Pistons need at #9 (shot blocker/rebounder that compliments Monroe or plays SF).  I don’t view either one as safe picks.  Henson needs size, and that’s always a point of hesitation.  Jones needs to get his head on straight.  Oddly enough I think of Daye with both of their deficits.

  • Jun 4, 20122:33 pm
    by Daye and Knight

    Reply

    Not for it. Could have another Daye “situation” if we did that why downgrade Knight when he is working his ass of now and was our hardest worker during practice? He’ll become a better passer and is already good at attacking the basket he’ll only get better from there. The luxury of having a Knight/Stuckey back court is BOTH can pass and attack the basket. Knight can knock down the open 3 and Stuckey can absorb body contact and draw fouls. Why ruin what could be a good back court for years to come? I agree with mark and if there isn’t any good big men left go with best player available, but another point guard makes no sense when we already have knight. We need a veteran back up at PG and maybe one in the second round but that’s about it. I think at 9 if Drummond or Robinson isn’t there we look at Terrence or Perry Jones. Both can play either the 3 or 4 and those are needs to fill and unlike Henson and Zeller both have upside and could end up being a steal at 9 like how we stole Monroe from the Warriors when they decided to take Udoh. Knight slipped to 8th and I still feel like that’s going to be a steal because he’s a hard worker and has his head on straight. So this year if we can’t find a big that can turn things around I’m sure at least one of the Jones will be available, and if not then maybe another team passed on Barnes. When we won the championship Chanuncey wasn’t a pure PG he could score and get people involve, kind of reminds me of Knight. Not saying that Knight is Billups but he could very well be with his ability to pass and hit 3′s. Let’s not ruin a good thing by taking Marshall and let Knight continue to grow without any complications (or lack of confidence if we take a PG with our first pick)

    • Jun 4, 20122:45 pm
      by Patrick Hayes

      Reply

      Why is it downgrading Knight? It’s simply upgrading the guard spot, if they determined that Marshall was the best available at nine. A three guard rotation of Knight-Marshall-Stuckey is pretty good. All three can play PG, all three are big enough to match up with most two guards defensively and Marshall’s passing would make things much easier on Knight and Stuckey when he’s on the floor with either guy, not to mention the Pistons’ frontcourt players. All three guys could get big minutes and the Pistons would have a really difficult backcourt to match up with defensively. Face it, any big they get will only be a minimal upgrade . Their frontcourt will still be a relatively easy one to defend. Adding Marshall would make their three-guard rotation really dynamic.

      • Jun 4, 20123:17 pm
        by Daye and Knight

        Reply

        My grandma would be a minimal upgrade to our front court. I get that: but what I’m saying is if we go for BPA, a PG should be our last choice. Assuming we get Marshall, how are we going to explain to knight (you’re still our guy) when we take another PG in the first round after doing so last year? It doesn’t make sense to me. Taking what Mark said we hold go BPA but I’m not going to take Marshall over the likes of Terrence Jones or Perry Jones III when they have upside and fit a need as well.

        • Jun 4, 20123:36 pm
          by Patrick Hayes

          Reply

          It would have to be done delicately, for sure, but the Pistons successfully did it with Rodney Stuckey when they drafted Knight. I think they could pull it off, it’s just something Knight would have to be in on as a possibility before it happens. “Hey, we like what this guy could do for the team as a whole, but more importantly you. He’d free you up to use your speed running the floor, he’d find open shots for you since 3-point shooting is a major strength for you and we’d have three very different and versatile guards blah blah blah.” Long story short, whatever they did with Stuckey that obviously sold him on the fact that he’s very important to the team long-term despite the fact they selected a player who played his position at the time, do something similar with Knight.

          And again, not saying I’m necessarily advocating this. If Henson, Sullinger or PJIII is there at 9, I’d definitely take one of those guys. But if they’re gone and the choices are a player like Marshall or the lesser tier bigs like Zeller, Leonard or Moultrie or a tweener like Terrence Jones, I’d probably take Marshall. I think he makes the Pistons better than any of those second tier guys.

          • Jun 4, 20124:01 pm
            by Daye and Knight

            Ya the second tier guys are what gets to me. Outside of Terrence Jones I would be very hesitant to use the 0th pick on the guys you just listed and I’m afraid Dumars might end up with one of them if Henson or PJ III is off the board. I would be more ok with Marshall if I knew it wouldn’t mentally effect Knight. Stuckey was less effected because he still was able to keep his starting job. If we took Marshall either him or Knight would be regulated to the bench at the start of games and I don’t think we should use a pick at 9 for Marshall to become a bench player, or start him and use our promising second year player who we just drafted at 8 last year and make him a bench player. If either was sold to the idea though, it wouldn’t be a bad pick, but still IMO not a good one

          • Jun 4, 20124:10 pm
            by Daye and Knight

            *9th pick

          • Jun 5, 20122:00 pm
            by Marvin Jones

            Why do you people seem to feel we MUST have a “true” point guard when we have a glaring need for a center. How many “true” point guards are still playing, ONE. A third guard would be a good thing, but not at #9, do what the Lakers did the last time they were in the lottery, they drafted a young talented center and brought him along patiently and now he’s a monster.  If you have a chance to get a talented center you get one, especially since we really don’t NEED a PG.

          • Jun 5, 20122:21 pm
            by Patrick Hayes

            I didn’t say we must have him. I just said I’d rather take him than a lesser tier big out of the Moultrie/Leonard group. Marshall is just a better player and prospect than those guys. I’d gamble on him becoming a good to very good NBA starter over Leonard or Moultrie for sure.

  • Jun 4, 20123:18 pm
    by Daye and Knight

    Reply

    *should go

  • Jun 4, 20125:20 pm
    by John V

    Reply

    If we could trade back into the 1st round and grab him, I would be all for it. Getting PJIII or Henson at 9 and trading for a pick to get Marshall would be great. But I am still very pro Jones/Henson.

  • Jun 4, 20125:26 pm
    by sop

    Reply

    Marshall would be a lot more tempting if he could shoot the 3 or drive the lane. He’d also be a huge liability on the defensive end with the extremely quick point guards all throughout the league these days. I’m curious how he would have played without the wide array of Tar Heels scorers around him from last year.

  • Jun 4, 20126:24 pm
    by vic

    Reply

    I like Marshall, but I couldnt justify the opportunity cost when you could get Maxhado who’s just as amazing a passer in the 2nd round… shorter – but a better athlete and shooter.

    I love the idea of trading for 10 or 11 and a 2nd rounder. 
    That way we could still get a high risk /high reward big like Henson/Leonard in round 1, and get Crowder, Oquinn, and Machado in the 2nd round.

  • Jun 4, 20126:34 pm
    by frankie d

    Reply

    all of the negatives people state about marshall are almost identical to the things that people have said about andre miller his entire career.  marshall reminds me of andre miller and will probably have the same sort of solid career that miller has had…at least.
    not sure if i would take him at 9, but he would be a nice addition.  
    the other real problem is that joe d has shown no ability…zero ability to do what would be necessary to make that kinds of moves necessary to reconfigure the roster to accommodate another guard.   my fear is that joe would bring him in, and he would simply sit for a couple of years and then who knows what might happen.

  • Jun 4, 201210:05 pm
    by Chris

    Reply

    Of the four Nth Carolina guys people are talking about I think Marshall will have the best career. Some of the big guys people are excited about (not just the Carolina guys) will probably spend half of their 5-6 year careers on the bench trying to maintain optimism.
     
    Marshall is a different kind of player to Knight and they could potentially compliment each other. Drafting Marshall does not mean Knight isnt going to be a very good player- he can maybe just be himself a bit more.
     
    If you draft M you have to find another was to get extra help up front- but in all honesty- you probably would have to do that regardless. What do I know though? Lets just see what happens…

  • Jun 4, 201210:28 pm
    by Corey

    Reply

    Here’s something I don’t get: when people say a particular pick is too early for a player. How do you know a particular pick is “too early” for a player? Because some mock draft said so? What was “too early” for Kenneth Faried last year? About pick #2, as it turned out. So I don’t get how someone can really say pick X is too early for Leonard or Moultrie or Marshal or anybody else. When it comes down to it, the team needs the guys to draft someone they believe will really make a difference on the court, whether popular wisdom says it’s 5 spots too early or not.

    • Jun 5, 201212:35 pm
      by Vic

      Reply

      I agree. Quit the idiot groupthink and get what you need that works to make your team better.

    • Jun 5, 20121:39 pm
      by Patrick Hayes

      Reply

      Saying ‘too early,’ to me at least, just means that there are significantly better players still on the board. Personally, if the Pistons or any team took Leonard or Moultrie over Marshall, I would call it a mistake. Even if Marshall doesn’t necessarily fill the greatest need, I think he’s going to be a significantly better player in the longrun. Now, if Henson, Sullinger, Jones or Barnes (and maybe Zeller … still on the fence about him) are still there at nine, then I’d be fine with the Pistons landing anyone from that group. If they’re gone, though, I’d prefer they take a player like Marshall rather than reaching for one of the less talented bigs in the draft. It’s one thing to reach for a pick if all the talent left is fairly comparable. It’s a mistake to do it if there are players who have already shown they are much better prospects on the board, and I would put Marshall much further ahead of Leonard or Moultrie as a prospect.

       

      • Jun 5, 20122:10 pm
        by Marvin Jones

        Reply

        From all accounts Leonard is VERY talented, just would need time to mature. I certainly would not say Marshall is way ahead of Leonard as far as talent is concerned. From what I’ve read Marhsall’s defense, quickness and shooting are all in question even though his ability to run a team is not, so there are a number of things he needs to get better at to be successful at the NBA level, just like Leonard. Get a talented center and let him grow with Monroe and Knight and we’ll be in good shape for the future.  

        • Jun 5, 20122:20 pm
          by Patrick Hayes

          Reply

          Leonard very well could mature. But as a college player, he isn’t even as advanced at this stage in his career as Cole Aldrich was at Kansas when he was drafted, and Aldrich has still yet to develop into even a rotation big for Oklahoma City in two seasons there. Granted, he’d probably play more on a bad team, but still … Leonard is a prospect because he’s really big and has decent athleticism, but he was not a very good college player. Marshall, on the other hand, was a very good college player, he has a skill that is rare in the NBA — he’s a true pass first point guard with size — and he was a huge factor for a really good team. Those things in my mind all make him a better gamble than Leonard.

          • Jun 5, 20122:35 pm
            by Marvin Jones

            Aldrich hasn’t cracked OKC’s lineup because he’s really not that talented, he’s more of a banger and garbage guy. Leonard has much more talent than Aldrich and he’s a legit 7 footer which Aldrich is not. Leonard’s numbers were not that bad in a tough situation at Ill. CBS Sportsline does a profile on the top 50 players in the draft, take a look and see what they have say about Leonard as far as his strenghts and weaknesses, pretty impressive in my opinion.

          • Jun 5, 20124:03 pm
            by sop

            I would agree with Patrick that Leonard has a high bust potential. Actually he probably has a greater bust potential than anyone in the draft not named PJIII.
             
            Cole Aldrich might be too short of a comp but what about BJ Mullens? The similarities there go beyond each players’ game too since they both left college early to help out their families financially.
             
            But my biggest knock against Leonard is that he’s a big whiner. If you watched even one Illinois game this year you would have had several examples of his bad body language and quick frustration.

    • Jun 5, 20126:30 pm
      by tarsier

      Reply

      10 would have been too early for Faried because if you drafted 10th and wanted him, you could trade down and get him and another asset. Obviously, predicting talent is imperfect, but if a guy is almost definitely going to be on the board a lot longer, it is too early to take him.

  • Jun 5, 20124:29 pm
    by Marvin Jones

    Reply

    That’s called maturity and hopefully he’ll mature beyond that sort of display. Remember this year coach Frank had to talk to Prince about his bad body language so it’s not limited to 20 yr olds. You can compare him to anyone you like, but just because someone has a similiar build or even situation does not mean they will turn out the same.  All of the prospects at #9 have warts so you take a chance on the most talented one and hope he develops. The Lakers picked Bynum at 14 when they were last in the lottery and even though he’s still immature, he’s a monster match up. You don’t pass up chances to get a legitimate talented  center.

  • Jun 5, 20127:38 pm
    by Marvin Jones

    Reply

    Well said Oats, well said

    • Jun 5, 20127:59 pm
      by oats

      Reply

      Thanks. A part of me wishes I didn’t let myself get so worked up over something said on the internet, but a much bigger part of me thinks that someone has to get worked up over it. Since I do it naturally, I might as well be the one to do it. I just wish it didn’t take me so long to wind down afterwards.

  • Jun 6, 20127:36 am
    by rick

    Reply

    I apologize to you Patrick, but don’t back down from my comments because I hear them on television all the time. I mean I was watching ESPN the other day and the Asian announcer on FirstTake made refrence to Skip Bayless talking in conversation to Stephen A Smith about fried chicken in OKC. Was I suppose to take his comment as a backhanded insult when in fact I as a black man love fried chicken? Im not all offended by what is actual fact based off of numbers that tell the story. It is not anything personal against any white people in general just a comment picked up and thrown around NBA circles all day everyday. To take my words and spin them the way you feel they came out was flat out wrong. My problem with people calling other people out is that if you are going to do so please do so in a educated manner without name calling and such. When did I disrespect either of you personally? Never, until you started disrespecting me. All you had to do was say, “damn Rick that is kinda weak of you to say that” or “damn Rick why does if have to be like that”. But to say you dumb or stupid just shows your lack of understanding/rationalization. I can write three or four paragraph soliloquy detailing my thoughts on racism and discrimination all day but that is not what this blog is about. Im all about the Pistons, but I do find it funny that most people will try to call you out or say you are dumb because they dont agree with you instead of just offering up a good debate. I have seen people argue with the folks who offer this blog calling em out all the time with no respect or regard for what they bring to us and I have you guys trying to assassinate my character off a silly comment thats thrown around regularly. If you read what Patrick wrote then that is the type of response I expect. Dispute my claim with factual eveidence as he did. To me thats the best way to shut someone up. I guess you are not someone who knows me , therefore you do not know the tone of my conversation. At the same time that does not justify you trying to call me out and give me a lesson about something I have lived the past 34 years of my DAMN life! Then you give me some miniscule ass situation that happened to you as justification to your stance! I mean thats like a white guy saying I have two black friends instead of saying I have friends from all races,ethnicites as well as different backgrounds. For you to get worked up over a silly comment like that on teh internet just shows the level that some people take things to that have no bearing whatsoever on them and get all worked up for no reason.

    Before I go I want to leave an example of someone taking someone words and running with them spinning them for their own agenda, something reporters and newssations do regularly to get more clicks as well as draw attention to something that does not need it.

    As long as we’re on the subject, drop the homophobic butt buddy stuff. I don’t know Marvin personally, we definitely aren’t gay lovers, and that is really f***ing offensive. I know this site isn’t big on profanity, but that is something that really deserves it. Deriding me by calling me a homosexual is not okay. Homosexuality is nothing to be ashamed of, and isn’t something that should be used as an insult. That is not okay on any level, and is actually way worse than your vaguely racist comment earlier. Using it that way implies homosexuals are somehow less than their heterosexual counterparts, and that is wrong on so many levels. I know it’s the internet and all, but come on.

    Again this is a classic example of someone taking statement twisting it around and running with it. Would you go and file defamation or slander off that comment? I want to know exactly where did I say you were homo? You just implied thats what I meant not taking the time to think to yourself ”hes only trying to be funny because this guy and I happen to agree.” No you took my words and put your own spin on it to make a point and try to make me look bad in the process. Look I could care less about what you think about me because like I said your experiences more than likely pale in comparison to mine especially in concerns about DWB. Therefore you will never understand , but what you will try do is paint mE as the racist knowing full Damn well my comment wasnt meant like that. Whateva man continue to fight the good fight just dont try to make me a pawn in your silly game.

    To Dan and Patrick I apologize if I went off the tracks a bit and will tailor my comments a bit better in the future. I think you guys know what I meant and I just got my words tangled in a bunge and felt like most would understand the logic that I was explaining. Never did I think someone would take my words and spin them outta control but I will admit I have seen people do it to you guys when you offer an observation or your opinion. The best thing is to have thick skin and learn from your errors. Hope you understand and keep the up the good work.

  • Jun 6, 20127:43 am
    by rick

    Reply

    Oh yeah btw Oats you are from where Vick and Iverson are from like that means anything significant or important, but come to my neck of the woods up here in Detroit Michigan. Maybe then you will have a newfound respect for the terms you think I use so very loosely. LMAO. Always up for a good debate, just dont put words in my mouth. Thank you.

    • Jun 6, 20128:46 am
      by oats

      Reply

      I should probably just drop this, but that’s not really my personality. It’s a flaw of mine to be honest, I have a hard time letting go of things. So, let’s take this from the top shall we. Talking about statistical facts is one thing. You can point out how few white guys are in the league all you want. Using that to justify a negative view on a specific player is not okay. That’s where I am trying to draw the line. Using race to draw a conclusion is my point of objection. I should point out I may have been overly aggressive with my starting point, but I do think it is a stupid thing to say. In hindsight I should have been more clear that I actually don’t think you are stupid, but rather that you expressed a profoundly dumb idea. I won’t back off that either. I do apologize for insinuating a lack of intelligence on your part, even if you are expressing rather dumb idea.  Smart people can say or think stupid things too.
       
      The fried chicken thing is stretching it an awful lot. Stephen A. Smith and Skip Bayless actually know each other, and if one of them has a fondness of fried chicken and the other brings it up, there is nothing remotely racially motivated in that scenario. If someone with know idea how that person feels about fried chicken brought it up, then we have a whole different ball game. Further more, the prevalence of a dumb idea does not in any way justify spreading it. If every basketball analyst on the planet said white guys are bad at basketball, I’d still call you out if you said it. None of that really is relevant to what I was talking about. I’m saying you went past just discussing statistical probabilities and took it to a further point. You are also making it sound like Kevin Love is the level a player has to be at to be worth risking drafting a white guy. The fact of the matter is that white players fill into a wide spectrum of skills and talent levels. Keith Van Horn, John Havlicek, AK47… The list of white guys not as good as Kevin Love but still worth having is pretty long, and I won’t even pretend like I’m remotely capable of setting forth a comprehensive list. Heck, even Laimbeer was not as good as Love, but a hell of a lot better than Eric Montross. There is plenty of room for a guy not to be Kevin Love but still be valuable, and you summarily dismissed all of that.
       
      As for me placing words in your mouth, I’m not really guilty of that. If you want to say I’m twisting your words, well, you have somewhat of an argument here. It’s a little thing called subtext, which when added to the text, leaves you the full context of what you said. I wasn’t exactly pulling this subtext from nowhere either. It was there, clear as day. The subtext is important, human beings are set up to look for the subtext of whatever they are given. The subtext of your statement was, “White guys can’t play, with a couple exceptions here or there. Don’t ever risk taking one unless you are certain he is the exception.” So, I am literally taking what you said, pointing out the flaws in it and the subtext that under rides it. Placing words in your mouth would be adding things you didn’t say. You know, what you were totally guilty of when you had me ascribing a race to you. For the record, I hadn’t even considered what race you were at the time I said that, it just wasn’t relevant to my point. But I didn’t do that, none of my arguments relied on something that wasn’t actually there. What was there was a wide sweeping dismissal of white guys not named Kevin Love.
       
      As for the butt buddies thing. Look, there are not two ways of looking at this. The term is a slur against homosexuals. No two ways about it. I know you meant it as someone I was cozy with, or agreeing with, but that is not what the term means. If I start dropping the N word and use it to mean ignorant people (I’ve heard people justify that word in that manner by the way), then you would totally be justified in calling me out for using a racist term. You shouldn’t use homophobic slurs flippantly any more than you should use racist terms flippantly. These words have clear cut meanings, don’t pretend like they don’t. I shouldn’t sit by and just go, “Oh, but he doesn’t really mean to be offensive.” Your intentions don’t matter, what matters is that what you said is really offensive. Maybe it’s asking too much to expect an apology on this point, but I do feel like I’m actually owed one.
       
      As for my little anecdotes, I only brought it up because you questioned whether I knew anything about racism. You also seemed to imply that being white somehow hinders my knowledge of it. I gave a couple quick examples of how I’ve been the target of racism, and it isn’t a pleasant thing for me to bring up. The idea that I don’t know what I’m talking about because of where I’m from or the color of my skin really grates at me. First of all, even if I was just an outsider looking in, that doesn’t prevent me from comprehending what I’m witnessing. Secondly, I’ve dealt with it more than I’m comfortable really talking about to be honest. You can deride the experience of having someone throwing racial slurs at me while spitting on me and threatening me with imminent bodily harm if you want, but I don’t think many people will agree with that line of thought. I also find the idea that the only way to really experience racism is to go to Detroit rather absurd. You really think that I haven’t seen racism up close and personal living in the south? I live about 90 minutes from the capital of the Confederacy. I am not saying any of this to suggest you haven’t dealt with it more often, or in a more harmful way than I have. I’m only saying I in fact do have some first hand experience with the topic.
       
      By the way, it should be noted that I’m actually more concerned that you are using your terms far too narrowly. Racism is a broad term, and it all hinges on the idea that you can know something about a person based off their race. You said something that suggests that is in fact possible. I’m saying this a topic where you have to be careful what you say, and be as clear about it as possible. Even subtext can be harmful.

    • Jun 6, 20129:01 am
      by oats

      Reply

      I forgot to say I’m not really trying to paint you as a racist. I’m saying you are supporting racist attitudes. Plenty of people unintentionally do that very thing all the time. I’m saying even an unintentional racist remark should be called out. Things said without racist intent can still contribute to the problem. I also say this in the hopes that someone thinks about what I’m saying and chooses their words more carefully in the future. I also hope someone might see this and decide to do this sort of thing on their own if they come across this type of situation in another setting. The whole point of all of this is that words have meaning, and they are important. Choose your words carefully so you are actually saying what you mean to say. If you had been trying to talk about the percentage of white athletes in the NBA, you failed to do so. Nothing you said brought that up. That’s the entire message here, really. Be aware of what you are saying, because it is really important. Casually racist comments have a way of seeping into a reader’s subconscious if they don’t pay attention to them, and that is part of how the idea that there are concrete fundamental differences between races can be confirmed for someone. I think it’s important to pay attention, and that’s really all I’m trying to do. Make certain the attention is being paid to ideas being espoused.
       
      Okay, I think I’m off my soapbox for now… I’d prefer not having to climb back on it.

  • Jun 6, 20124:43 pm
    by rick

    Reply

    I hope you get the message and the message is dont assume. When you assume you make an ass out of you and me. Period. I dont care what you may think I thought because I know what I said. The part about Stephen A Smith and Skip Bayless was that the Asian announcer  on First Take stated to Skip in a conversation to Stephen A that their were good Barbecue joints in OKC. Was I to take that as a personal jab? Was I to take it as insult to my heritage and background or for that matter assume he was making a statement that was out of bounds. Its all up to interpetation. This argument manifested from thing to another for absoultely no reason that for your own self gratification. You see to me its about the thickness of your skin and if you cannot handle then thats on you. For you to try and give me history lesson really gets me because you dont know anything about me to even try to have this discussion with me. All you had to say was Rick provide stats to back it up. I dont need someone telling me what racist and racism is when I live the shit everyday man. Never do I go out and purposely intend to maliciously insult anyone because I know exactly how it feels.  Furthermore your weak ass example of the ‘”N” word is so out of bounds in comparison to butt buddies that I dont know whether to take you serious or not. Whether my words were callous or not you just gave your justification for using racist terms. I mean you blantantly state that you knew what I meant but chose to go on a diatribe about homosexuality as if I said you were gay. Thats what Im talking about when I say putting words in my mouth and you knew full damn well what I was saying. You just chose to ignore it like the Kevin Love part my statement. Im done arguing with you and hope that you can get that chip off your shoulder because no matter what I stand by my words.

  • Jun 6, 20125:11 pm
    by rick

    Reply

    If you are looking to mentor people about flippant and blantant diregards as it pertains to racism you can always try the Freep, MLive or hell ESPN for that matter. Then you will have a different outlook as it pertains to this particular subject. My other issue is I take umbridge with those who try and use the internet as a tool to advance their personal agenda without taking into consideration that their are real issues at hand yet they attack those who may have the same opinion but just voices it in a different manner. The main thing is people need to stop being so ultr-sensitive to everything if they want people to take these same issues serious when they do arise. In short when their is a racist act being displayed in here  I have to believe that the overall presence in this blog would take control of said situation. I honestly feel you stated your true colors when you made your statement  ”I should probably just drop this, but that’s not really my personality. It’s a flaw of mine to be honest, I have a hard time letting go of things.” To me that says it all. You like to argue if for no reason other than to argue. So in the end was it really worth all the effort? The way I see it Im going to think how I think as Im sure you will continue to think as you do. Next time ”break me off” with facts to dispute my claim, not try and scold me. You will get alot further that way. Patrick has humbled me on more than one occasion. As a man I respect his opinion as well as position and know that we will not always agree, but that doesnt mean we can’t have a spirited debate.

    • Jun 7, 20126:52 am
      by oats

      Reply

      No, all of this is clearly wrong. This back and forth we are having is not between just the two of us, at least not entirely. It has happening on the internet, and you have no way of knowing who is or isn’t paying attention. That changes everything. The decidedly public nature of an open internet thread makes this the place to hold this conversation. Words have meaning. Words have power. Words are how you spread ideas, and ideas lead to actions. If this was a one on one conversation we probably would have been more civil broaching the topic, and I’d have dropped it awhile ago. That isn’t what is happening here. For all intents and purposes, this needs to be treated as a public debate. That is why I’m being so forceful, because anyone can come across this. This is the way all internet conversations should be treated, unless they involve private message boards, emails, or messaging.
       
      You are the one who isn’t taking into account the real issues at hand. Casually racist comments that are relatively harmless contribute to the bigger problem. Those types of comments are easy for someone to gloss over, to read but not really be aware of them. They enter the mind, but they go unchallenged, allowing them to stay there. This one comment in and of itself is not a huge problem, but the average person is inundated with thousands of supposedly innocent comments that eventually become more concrete. It creates an environment that helps perpetuate the problem. Just focusing on bigger picture stuff is wrong. It misses the true problem. Those bigger problems all stem from an idea, and in order to combat racism you have to combat the ideas that it is founded on. That means you have to confront even the smallest, least harmful versions of the idea, and you have to make it known that that is where the line needs to be drawn. The line isn’t using hate speech, or beating up people for reasons related to race. The line needs to be drawn that at the fundamental idea that there are concrete differences between races, that there is something you can know about someone due to race. That’s the only way to combat an idea, at it’s most basic level. What you said wasn’t all that bad in the grand scheme of things, but it made you complicit in the big picture stuff too. That by the way is why I’m not just using a more friendly way of coming about this. The public nature requires me to take a hard stand and make it clear to anyone reading this exactly what is being discussed. I can’t just coax it terms I think will work best for you, it has to be a broad gesture. And let’s be clear here, what we are talking about is a topic worth my grandstanding. That’s part of it too. The nature of this argument demands a bigger stage, so to speak. It is inappropriate to talk about this without making it out to be a big deal. This is really big deal. We’re talking about the power of words, the power of ideas, and the power of hate.
       
      This isn’t a casual conversation. This topic has far too much weight for that. It could have been more casual, but you pushed it here by hinting that white people don’t get racism, by insinuating only people with personal ties to the debate can have an opinion, and by trying to dismiss what you said as harmless. That kind of conversation can’t be casual, it has to be in your face. You provoked this attitude from me. i won’t deny my original statement made it likely it would go here, it definitely did. I wanted to point out that racism inherent in the comment, and it is there. It’s important that attention is drawn to racist ideas and statement, even if they are only the result of someone not being clear with their thoughts. I honestly expected you to clarify what you meant, and then we’d have been done with this. Instead you went on the attack. Again, you went on the attack because you thought I was, so I’m exactly as responsible for getting us here as you are. But you helped get it here, and you can’t then complain that this is where the conversation has led. As for the facts, the facts are simple. The fact is you can’t conclusively determine anything about a player based off his race. I was using facts to dispute you. It came in the form of a scolding, but it was a fact. The scolding was also justified.
       
      Maybe this isn’t the best forum for this, but this is where the conversation came up. It belongs here because it was relevant to what was said here. What’s more, we’re talking about race on a basketball site, and that is appropriate. Basketball history has strong ties to racial issues. Whether we’re talking about Larry Bird saying he was offended when he was guarded by white guys, most anything related to Donald Sterling, whether or not the NBA is marketing a league with mostly black athletes to white people, the Miami Heat hoodie photo, or even stupid things being said by fans. Those are all fairly current topics in the NBA. Yeah, this conversation is basketball related. But like I already said, I’m doing it here because you brought it up here. You questioned why it was a big deal and why I was taking it so personal, and I answered you. Don’t forget the order of events here, everything I’ve said has been a response to something you said.
       
      As for the Asian announcer… He works at ESPN. Stephen A. Smith and Skip Bayless have held conversations on air about both of their love of fried chicken on the very show you are talking about. He has first hand knowledge that Stephen A. Smith likes chicken. I could bring it up comfortable in the knowledge that I wasn’t just racially profiling Mr. Smith. He declared his love of it on television. Again, this is clearly not racism. This is talking about something you personally know to be accurate about the person, and not just a “He’s black so he must love fried chicken” type of stereotype. What you said was different, you used a “He’s white so he’s bad at basketball” stereotype.
       
      You’re really trying to defend the butt buddies thing still? What the hell man. Was my using the N word an overstatement? Of course it was. I was deliberately using a more extreme example to highlight what was wrong with what you were doing. That phrase, much like the N word, is a term used to degrade a group of people. The word came around as a crude method of calling someone a sodomite, and it’s purpose is to try to portray homosexuality in a manner that small minded people think is gross. It equates a connection between two people to it’s most base form. It implies that there is nothing more to it than that, that it’s just an unhealthy attraction to a body part. It is a term of scorn. You also used it to take a jab at me. It may have been intended as good natured ribbing, but that was not what it was. You threw around homophobic hate speech to try to put me in my place. This is not debateable Rick, and it is not even a little acceptable. The word might not be the absolute worst thing to throw at a gay person, but it is still on the list. I deliberately chose the worst example I could think of to show why you can’t just redefine hate speech for your intended usage. Maybe I should have used the Clerks 2 example of trying to redefine porch monkey as lazy person since that is closer to the level of hate involved in butt buddy (note, it didn’t work, and they had to admit that some things can’t be pulled away from their hateful roots). The point remains, that term is nothing more than ignorant minded hate speech. Actually, this goes to the points I already made. If I used the N word in a public environment to mean ignorant, and the person I was talking to knew what I meant by it, does the guy standing near us have the right to be offended? Of course he does. What’s more, even if the person I’m talking to understands what I mean, he can still find the term offensive. I understood what you meant, and still found it utterly repugnant. Unless you want people to think you are into that whole gay bashing mindset, drop it from your repertoire of phrases. If nothing else, reserve it for people that you know don’t mind it and never use it with or around people who might take offense to it. I clearly do, and that is reason enough for you to apologize for it. Again, what you meant doesn’t matter. It’s what you said. You said something crude, hateful, and offensive. This is not a remotely defensible act, so stop it. I don’t want to read that kind of thing, and it isn’t an argument you can win. You are completely, and entirely in the wrong on this point. You can not casually throw around homophobic slurs, no matter the intention. I can’t believe I actually have to keep making this point, even after Hayes pointed out that it was crude and offensive. Some things you can’t say, period.

    • Jun 7, 20127:39 am
      by oats

      Reply

      I almost forgot. The problem isn’t with my assumption. I dealt with what was said. I’m dealing with what is there. Both text, and subtext. This is not an assumption. The full context of your statement didn’t agree with what you meant. I shouldn’t be dealing with what you meant to say, I deal with what you said. The full context. That’s not on me, it is what you said, and you are responsible for it. This is how people communicate. The subtext is just as important as the text itself, it’s how we process information. Even just looking at the text, the text itself is advocating using race as a means to make a judgment call on a person. It’s not calling for it to be the only factor, but definitely a large one. That’s worth me taking the time to point it out. It’s the equivalent of me telling someone to watch their purse because a black guy just entered the room. I could even give some lame excuse that I’m just talking about the statistics, that black people are more likely to go to prison at some point in their lives. Admittedly that statistic says something about systemic racism in the legal system, but all of this has to do with systemic racism in our culture. When you point out that announcers say stuff like this, you are talking about how institutionalized racism has become in our culture, but you use it to justify using institutionalized racism. Again, this was me using a deliberately worse example to show why the connection is problematic. It is still another version of the same basic idea, the idea that the races are inherently different. That is the point of contention.

    • Jun 7, 20127:55 am
      by oats

      Reply

      Oh, and again, I have dealt with the Kevin Love thing before. Allowing for exceptions to the rule doesn’t change the fact that you are saying the rule is white people are bad at basketball. It changes nothing. I didn’t ignore it, it didn’t mean anything. When you pointed it out again, I addressed it thoroughly.

  • Jun 7, 20127:23 am
    by oats

    Reply

    Patrick and Dan, I need to apologize for this thread. I definitely am complicit in it getting to this state. I didn’t mean to bring it here, and I’m sorry that it did. That said, now that it is here, I’m not likely to back down from it. This is something important enough to me that I can’t just back down on it. I’m a firm believer in the power of words and the power of ideas. I also believe that when talking in a relatively public forum, you have to be especially mindful of the ideas you are expressing. I know I don’t always live up to the sort of high standards I’m trying to set, but I feel it is important to set them there. I know I can come off confrontational, and definitely did here. Like I said, I played a major role in getting the conversation so far off the tracks. If I were to step out of bounds, I’d hope someone would call me out on it. Rick’s accused me of having an agenda, and while I don’t think that’s entirely accurate, there is some truth to it. I believe people should be responsible for what they say, even if it isn’t what they mean. I also believe that when someone says something wrong, you draw attention to it so people can learn from it. I’m not some politically correct crusader, trying to pick fights when they weren’t there. Hell, I’m often not very PC myself. I just believe in standing up for what I believe. This isn’t the ideal place for this discussion, and I know that too. I’m only having it here because it came up here. When Patrick asked me to let it cool off I decided to sleep on it… and then it was back. I decided to walk away, and then sleep on it again, and here it was again. Again, I’m not blameless here, I just don’t want my continuing the argument to be taken as a sign of disrespect to you guys or what you do.

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