Comments on: Pistons’ loss to Bucks was nearly perfect http://www.pistonpowered.com/2012/04/pistons-loss-to-bucks-was-nearly-perfect/ Your Go-To Source For Pistons Coverage Tue, 18 Jun 2013 04:31:02 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.4.1 By: tarsier http://www.pistonpowered.com/2012/04/pistons-loss-to-bucks-was-nearly-perfect/comment-page-1/#comment-64140 tarsier Mon, 16 Apr 2012 22:37:06 +0000 http://www.pistonpowered.com/2012/04/pistons-loss-to-bucks-was-nearly-perfect/#comment-64140 yes, i would. but i can understand not describing him that way. it is much like i describe kwame brown as a bust in spite of the fact that he has found roles on a couple teams. but if he went in the late teens, i would not describe him as a bust. yes, i would. but i can understand not describing him that way. it is much like i describe kwame brown as a bust in spite of the fact that he has found roles on a couple teams. but if he went in the late teens, i would not describe him as a bust.

]]> By: frankie d http://www.pistonpowered.com/2012/04/pistons-loss-to-bucks-was-nearly-perfect/comment-page-1/#comment-64039 frankie d Mon, 16 Apr 2012 01:19:33 +0000 http://www.pistonpowered.com/2012/04/pistons-loss-to-bucks-was-nearly-perfect/#comment-64039 i don't define such a player in that fashion.  a bust, to me, is thabeet.  or yi. or adam morrison.  or patrick o'bryant. to me, henson, if he is lucky is brandon wright.  wright has found a spot in dallas, and he's playing off the bench, with the second unit.  he's a solid rotation player, now, after about 4 -5 years of failure. he was picked 8th in '07.   imho, i guess you are describing wright as a bust. i don’t define such a player in that fashion.  a bust, to me, is thabeet.  or yi. or adam morrison.  or patrick o’bryant.
to me, henson, if he is lucky is brandon wright.  wright has found a spot in dallas, and he’s playing off the bench, with the second unit.  he’s a solid rotation player, now, after about 4 -5 years of failure.
he was picked 8th in ’07.  
imho, i guess you are describing wright as a bust.

]]> By: tarsier http://www.pistonpowered.com/2012/04/pistons-loss-to-bucks-was-nearly-perfect/comment-page-1/#comment-64020 tarsier Sun, 15 Apr 2012 22:17:01 +0000 http://www.pistonpowered.com/2012/04/pistons-loss-to-bucks-was-nearly-perfect/#comment-64020 If such a player as you describe went in the top ten, I would describe that as a bust. If such a player as you describe went in the top ten, I would describe that as a bust.

]]> By: frankie d http://www.pistonpowered.com/2012/04/pistons-loss-to-bucks-was-nearly-perfect/comment-page-1/#comment-64018 frankie d Sun, 15 Apr 2012 20:57:52 +0000 http://www.pistonpowered.com/2012/04/pistons-loss-to-bucks-was-nearly-perfect/#comment-64018 i've never said he'd be a bust.  i think he will probably be a bench guy who comes in and plays defense with the second unit.  there is a place in the league for guys like him, but they just don't end up being starters and stars. in this draft, i would not use a lottery pick on that type of player.  i'd try to get that type of player in the second round. i’ve never said he’d be a bust.  i think he will probably be a bench guy who comes in and plays defense with the second unit.  there is a place in the league for guys like him, but they just don’t end up being starters and stars.
in this draft, i would not use a lottery pick on that type of player.  i’d try to get that type of player in the second round.

]]> By: tarsier http://www.pistonpowered.com/2012/04/pistons-loss-to-bucks-was-nearly-perfect/comment-page-1/#comment-64010 tarsier Sun, 15 Apr 2012 19:43:03 +0000 http://www.pistonpowered.com/2012/04/pistons-loss-to-bucks-was-nearly-perfect/#comment-64010 I understand your point. And I certainly don't think strength is meaningless. It is just one of several factors. I don't think Henson is all that weak. But as I mentioned before, we will probably have to wait for the combine to know for sure. Also, I was surprised by your example of Thabeet. he is definitely not weak. He just is not that good, even on defense. He is a good shot blocker, but not a good defender. Weak players are definitely at a disadvantage, but not one they can't overcome. Prince was a great example you gave of a guy who is not particularly strong but played very well for quite a while anyway. Other examples include Reggie Miller, Kevin Durant, Steve Nash, and Brook Lopez. Other guys who would fail the eye test in some ways but play damn well anyway are Chris Paul and Kevin Love. But it is definitely harder for a scrawny weak player to make it as a big man than as a wing or PG. So we shall have to see if Henson is a Garnett/Rodman type who is deceptively strong, if he is a Bosh type who comes in as a toothpick but develops more in the pros, or if he will be a total bust. I understand your point. And I certainly don’t think strength is meaningless. It is just one of several factors. I don’t think Henson is all that weak. But as I mentioned before, we will probably have to wait for the combine to know for sure. Also, I was surprised by your example of Thabeet. he is definitely not weak. He just is not that good, even on defense. He is a good shot blocker, but not a good defender. Weak players are definitely at a disadvantage, but not one they can’t overcome. Prince was a great example you gave of a guy who is not particularly strong but played very well for quite a while anyway. Other examples include Reggie Miller, Kevin Durant, Steve Nash, and Brook Lopez. Other guys who would fail the eye test in some ways but play damn well anyway are Chris Paul and Kevin Love.

But it is definitely harder for a scrawny weak player to make it as a big man than as a wing or PG. So we shall have to see if Henson is a Garnett/Rodman type who is deceptively strong, if he is a Bosh type who comes in as a toothpick but develops more in the pros, or if he will be a total bust.

]]> By: frankie d http://www.pistonpowered.com/2012/04/pistons-loss-to-bucks-was-nearly-perfect/comment-page-1/#comment-63981 frankie d Sun, 15 Apr 2012 16:37:37 +0000 http://www.pistonpowered.com/2012/04/pistons-loss-to-bucks-was-nearly-perfect/#comment-63981 i understand the difference between slight of build and weak and thin.   dennis rodman was slight of build but strong. latrell sprewell was slight, but very strong. jordan was slight, but strong.   brandon knight seems to be slight of build, but pretty strong.  garnett gained lots of strength but was still pretty thin. henson is weak and thin. daye is weak and thin. tay is weak and thin.   some guys never get any bigger simply because of genetics.  their frame cannot handle more weight. danny ferry was an example of that.  he tried desperately to bulk up and ended up being the same bird-chested skinny guy he always was the day he retired. i don't know about henson, but he looks to have a narrow chest and shoulders, which usually means that he will have a real limit on his ability to bulk up and add weight and strength.  (he does not appear to be one of those rodman-type, strong, skinny guys.)  i watch lots of college BB and i watched lots of NC BB.  henson got pushed around a lot.  whenever he ran up against a big guy with any kind of bulk - even anthony davis, who was not a huge guy, but who seems to be wiry strong - he got punked, and had to scramble just to maintain his position on both ends. do you even watch much college BB?  i get the feeling you are simply looking at stats and examining "production" rather than actually basing your opinion on having watched the players. i cannot tell if you are being facetious about lack of size and bulk not mattering. in detroit we've had plenty of lessons that tell us that it matters a lot. daye is exhibit A...and he's a perimeter guy. tay's inability - or maybe refusal, who knows - to add weight and strength had a hugely negative impact on the team during its heyday.  one of the huge problems the pistons constantly encountered was tay's inability to handle the power 3's like pierce and lebron as the team went further in the playoffs.  he constantly got manhandled by those bigger, stronger 3's and his lack of sheer size and strength was a big part of his problem. of course you always want to do your due dilligence in order to determine how a player will physically project into the future.   i'm not talking about how the player "looks"; i am talking about how his physical presence, or lack thereof, impacts on his production.  and there have been plenty of college players who get drafted and because of their inability to handle the league's physicality, they fail.   thabeet and yi are just two of the latest examples. brandan wright is another who is only now carving out a niche as a 4/5 who can play in a zone, but who is incapable of defending man to man because of his slight build. i understand the difference between slight of build and weak and thin.  
dennis rodman was slight of build but strong. latrell sprewell was slight, but very strong. jordan was slight, but strong.   brandon knight seems to be slight of build, but pretty strong.  garnett gained lots of strength but was still pretty thin.
henson is weak and thin.
daye is weak and thin.
tay is weak and thin.  
some guys never get any bigger simply because of genetics.  their frame cannot handle more weight.
danny ferry was an example of that.  he tried desperately to bulk up and ended up being the same bird-chested skinny guy he always was the day he retired.
i don’t know about henson, but he looks to have a narrow chest and shoulders, which usually means that he will have a real limit on his ability to bulk up and add weight and strength.  (he does not appear to be one of those rodman-type, strong, skinny guys.) 
i watch lots of college BB and i watched lots of NC BB.  henson got pushed around a lot.  whenever he ran up against a big guy with any kind of bulk – even anthony davis, who was not a huge guy, but who seems to be wiry strong – he got punked, and had to scramble just to maintain his position on both ends.
do you even watch much college BB?  i get the feeling you are simply looking at stats and examining “production” rather than actually basing your opinion on having watched the players.
i cannot tell if you are being facetious about lack of size and bulk not mattering.
in detroit we’ve had plenty of lessons that tell us that it matters a lot.
daye is exhibit A…and he’s a perimeter guy.
tay’s inability – or maybe refusal, who knows – to add weight and strength had a hugely negative impact on the team during its heyday.  one of the huge problems the pistons constantly encountered was tay’s inability to handle the power 3′s like pierce and lebron as the team went further in the playoffs.  he constantly got manhandled by those bigger, stronger 3′s and his lack of sheer size and strength was a big part of his problem.
of course you always want to do your due dilligence in order to determine how a player will physically project into the future.  
i’m not talking about how the player “looks”; i am talking about how his physical presence, or lack thereof, impacts on his production.  and there have been plenty of college players who get drafted and because of their inability to handle the league’s physicality, they fail.  
thabeet and yi are just two of the latest examples.
brandan wright is another who is only now carving out a niche as a 4/5 who can play in a zone, but who is incapable of defending man to man because of his slight build.

]]> By: tarsier http://www.pistonpowered.com/2012/04/pistons-loss-to-bucks-was-nearly-perfect/comment-page-1/#comment-63958 tarsier Sun, 15 Apr 2012 12:35:48 +0000 http://www.pistonpowered.com/2012/04/pistons-loss-to-bucks-was-nearly-perfect/#comment-63958 Again, on neither count was I referring to body shape, I was referring to production and impact. Huge difference there. Also, Henson isn't weak, he's of slight build. But I guess neither of us can bring much evidence on that count, so let's just agree to disagree until the combine gives us some data. The fact of the matter is that I would rather have a guy who doesn't look the part of an NBA player but produces like one than a guy who looks the part but doesn't play that well. Production simply translates better than the eye test. Also, most college guys get bigger and stronger after coming to the NBA. Henson is not my idea draft target anyway, and ignoring red flags about his lack of girth would be a mistake for any GM with Henson on his draft board, but you seem to want to only look at the guy and completely disregard what he has been able to do in spite of being slender. That too would be a huge mistake. Again, on neither count was I referring to body shape, I was referring to production and impact. Huge difference there.

Also, Henson isn’t weak, he’s of slight build. But I guess neither of us can bring much evidence on that count, so let’s just agree to disagree until the combine gives us some data.

The fact of the matter is that I would rather have a guy who doesn’t look the part of an NBA player but produces like one than a guy who looks the part but doesn’t play that well. Production simply translates better than the eye test.

Also, most college guys get bigger and stronger after coming to the NBA.

Henson is not my idea draft target anyway, and ignoring red flags about his lack of girth would be a mistake for any GM with Henson on his draft board, but you seem to want to only look at the guy and completely disregard what he has been able to do in spite of being slender. That too would be a huge mistake.

]]> By: frankie d http://www.pistonpowered.com/2012/04/pistons-loss-to-bucks-was-nearly-perfect/comment-page-1/#comment-63935 frankie d Sun, 15 Apr 2012 03:44:52 +0000 http://www.pistonpowered.com/2012/04/pistons-loss-to-bucks-was-nearly-perfect/#comment-63935 perkins, kendrick is even more of a stretch. kendrick came into the league overweight, a bully.  he's still a bully, but he's in shape now.  he's a physical presence, which would never be said of henson. chandler was always an elite athlete.   he just needed to focus.   he was exremely fluid for a big guy, he just didn't have any skills. henson is just the opposite.  you can tell he's had excellent coaching in the past, but he's just not that good of an athlete.  he's got skills, because he's had good coaching.  and he's tall and long, but not a fluid athlete like chandler.  sp he is successful at the college level with the combo of his length and his skills, but he's a mediocre athlete.  it amazes me that people cannot see that about him.  he's a big doofus. you can't just define a guy as a "good defender" without saying who he is going to defend. again...who is he going to defend?  what position? and what player in the nba is like him...and successful? he may be able to get away with his "slenderness" in college, but it will matter in the nba. not a huge deal in the nba? since when has physical weakness for big guys NOT been an issue. that has to rank as one of the silliest things i've ever heard.  nba big men take the lunch money of skinny guys.  they even do it to guys who play on the perimeter - daye- so what do you think will happen to guys - what does happen regularly to guys - like henson who come into the league without strength? they get punked. perkins, kendrick is even more of a stretch.
kendrick came into the league overweight, a bully.  he’s still a bully, but he’s in shape now.  he’s a physical presence, which would never be said of henson.
chandler was always an elite athlete.   he just needed to focus.  
he was exremely fluid for a big guy, he just didn’t have any skills.
henson is just the opposite.  you can tell he’s had excellent coaching in the past, but he’s just not that good of an athlete.  he’s got skills, because he’s had good coaching.  and he’s tall and long, but not a fluid athlete like chandler.  sp he is successful at the college level with the combo of his length and his skills, but he’s a mediocre athlete.  it amazes me that people cannot see that about him.  he’s a big doofus.
you can’t just define a guy as a “good defender” without saying who he is going to defend.
again…who is he going to defend?  what position?
and what player in the nba is like him…and successful?
he may be able to get away with his “slenderness” in college, but it will matter in the nba.
not a huge deal in the nba?
since when has physical weakness for big guys NOT been an issue.
that has to rank as one of the silliest things i’ve ever heard. 
nba big men take the lunch money of skinny guys.  they even do it to guys who play on the perimeter – daye- so what do you think will happen to guys – what does happen regularly to guys – like henson who come into the league without strength?
they get punked.

]]> By: tarsier http://www.pistonpowered.com/2012/04/pistons-loss-to-bucks-was-nearly-perfect/comment-page-1/#comment-63930 tarsier Sun, 15 Apr 2012 03:01:56 +0000 http://www.pistonpowered.com/2012/04/pistons-loss-to-bucks-was-nearly-perfect/#comment-63930 And I wasn't referring to any awkwardness at all. i'm not even sure what you mean by that. I mean, like Okafor and Kendrick Perkins, Henson projects as a poor man's Tyson Chandler (or just a Tyson Chandler for his whole career before last season with Dallas). Good defenders, but not great. Prototypical centers. Nice addition to a team, but inevitably overpaid. Yeah Henson is much skinnier than them. But for some reason I doubt that his slenderness will really be a huge deal. And I wasn’t referring to any awkwardness at all. i’m not even sure what you mean by that. I mean, like Okafor and Kendrick Perkins, Henson projects as a poor man’s Tyson Chandler (or just a Tyson Chandler for his whole career before last season with Dallas). Good defenders, but not great. Prototypical centers. Nice addition to a team, but inevitably overpaid. Yeah Henson is much skinnier than them. But for some reason I doubt that his slenderness will really be a huge deal.

]]> By: tarsier http://www.pistonpowered.com/2012/04/pistons-loss-to-bucks-was-nearly-perfect/comment-page-1/#comment-63928 tarsier Sun, 15 Apr 2012 02:58:13 +0000 http://www.pistonpowered.com/2012/04/pistons-loss-to-bucks-was-nearly-perfect/#comment-63928 By Perkins, I meant Kendrick Perkins. By Perkins, I meant Kendrick Perkins.

]]>