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	<title>Comments on: Greg Monroe demands an increased role, gets it, looks smart</title>
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		<title>By: tarsier</title>
		<link>http://www.pistonpowered.com/2012/04/greg-monroe-demands-an-increased-role-gets-it-looks-smart/comment-page-1/#comment-63890</link>
		<dc:creator>tarsier</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Apr 2012 21:34:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pistonpowered.com/?p=9754#comment-63890</guid>
		<description>I do like PER but it&#039;s not like I would claim it is a great way of ranking the best players in the game. It is one more stat to throw into an argument, but nothing more than that.

That is what bugs me about those who go on rants against PER. They seem to think that it is supposed to be used as an absolute player ranking metric. I don&#039;t know of one PER user who claims that. It is comparable to when someone claims that number of championships won is part of how to assess the greatness of a player and somebody else retorts &quot;So Horry is a top 5 all-time player?&quot; Of course not. Nobody is claiming that. They just want to include number of rings in the discussion, not have it be the entire discussion.

I like PER because it is very good at what it is there for. It rolls up all the box score contribution of a player into one number. It has its flaws, but there is not a better stat that does the same thing. Again, EFF is the same stat. It&#039;s just the total one rather than the per possession one. That means they have different functions. If you want to know whose box score production has contributed more to his team, look at EFF. If you want to know who has been more valuable to have on the floor at any given time (again in terms of box score production), look at PER.

And of course, a strong PER over not many minutes means absolutely nothing. The margin of error is just far too large. For instance, if a guy played one possession all year and hit a shot on that one possession, he would have far and away the best PER in the league.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I do like PER but it&#8217;s not like I would claim it is a great way of ranking the best players in the game. It is one more stat to throw into an argument, but nothing more than that.</p>
<p>That is what bugs me about those who go on rants against PER. They seem to think that it is supposed to be used as an absolute player ranking metric. I don&#8217;t know of one PER user who claims that. It is comparable to when someone claims that number of championships won is part of how to assess the greatness of a player and somebody else retorts &#8220;So Horry is a top 5 all-time player?&#8221; Of course not. Nobody is claiming that. They just want to include number of rings in the discussion, not have it be the entire discussion.</p>
<p>I like PER because it is very good at what it is there for. It rolls up all the box score contribution of a player into one number. It has its flaws, but there is not a better stat that does the same thing. Again, EFF is the same stat. It&#8217;s just the total one rather than the per possession one. That means they have different functions. If you want to know whose box score production has contributed more to his team, look at EFF. If you want to know who has been more valuable to have on the floor at any given time (again in terms of box score production), look at PER.</p>
<p>And of course, a strong PER over not many minutes means absolutely nothing. The margin of error is just far too large. For instance, if a guy played one possession all year and hit a shot on that one possession, he would have far and away the best PER in the league.</p>
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		<title>By: tarsier</title>
		<link>http://www.pistonpowered.com/2012/04/greg-monroe-demands-an-increased-role-gets-it-looks-smart/comment-page-1/#comment-63887</link>
		<dc:creator>tarsier</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Apr 2012 21:22:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pistonpowered.com/?p=9754#comment-63887</guid>
		<description>The best rebounders will of course be under valued for the simple reason that the best rebounders aren&#039;t all about getting lots of boards but about limiting how many the opponents get. But again, that isn&#039;t something that shows up in the box score.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The best rebounders will of course be under valued for the simple reason that the best rebounders aren&#8217;t all about getting lots of boards but about limiting how many the opponents get. But again, that isn&#8217;t something that shows up in the box score.</p>
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		<title>By: tarsier</title>
		<link>http://www.pistonpowered.com/2012/04/greg-monroe-demands-an-increased-role-gets-it-looks-smart/comment-page-1/#comment-63885</link>
		<dc:creator>tarsier</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Apr 2012 21:18:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pistonpowered.com/?p=9754#comment-63885</guid>
		<description>Again, PER and EFF are essentially the same. EFF does not value rebounding any more than PER. The reason Rodman will be higher on EFF is simply because he played more possessions than most players. That is the only way to have a high EFF relative to PER just like the only way to have a high PER relative to EFF is to play relatively few possessions.

And yeah, I&#039;m not saying that the value assigned to any stat by EFF/PER is some sort of perfect metric. I&#039;m just saying it isn&#039;t some guy saying, &quot;I think this stat should be worth x.&quot; It is based on a statistical estimation of the average value of such a stat. So a rebound one season may actually be worth more than a rebound in another season depending on factors like what percentage of the boards are taken in by the offense or defense and how effectively teams score that year.

Many people have complained that rebounding is undervalued and scoring over valued. I would point out that scoring inefficiently is barely valued at all and can actually have negative value. Scoring efficiently is the fastest way to bring up one&#039;s EFF/PER though. The arguments are probably valid but I think it makes sense because at the end of the day,t he winning team is the one with more points, not the one with more boards.

Also, offensive rebounds actually tend to be quite valuable to EFF/PER. Defensive rebounds are not valued very highly, but again, I think that makes sense. Most defensive rebounds, if the player who collected it had not done so, it still would have gone to a member of his team. That means the fact that he grabbed that rebound was not actually very valuable at all. Of course, some players get a higher percentage of boards that would have gone to teammates and some get a higher percentage of those that would have gone to opponents. But since the box score doesn&#039;t show which are which, PER/EFF obviously can&#039;t account for that.

I would say that what PER/EFF most undervalues is actually blocks. Because, to the best of my understanding, it doesn&#039;t account for the fact that by and large, shots that get blocked are close to the rim and have a significantly better chance of going in (if not blocked) than average shots.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Again, PER and EFF are essentially the same. EFF does not value rebounding any more than PER. The reason Rodman will be higher on EFF is simply because he played more possessions than most players. That is the only way to have a high EFF relative to PER just like the only way to have a high PER relative to EFF is to play relatively few possessions.</p>
<p>And yeah, I&#8217;m not saying that the value assigned to any stat by EFF/PER is some sort of perfect metric. I&#8217;m just saying it isn&#8217;t some guy saying, &#8220;I think this stat should be worth x.&#8221; It is based on a statistical estimation of the average value of such a stat. So a rebound one season may actually be worth more than a rebound in another season depending on factors like what percentage of the boards are taken in by the offense or defense and how effectively teams score that year.</p>
<p>Many people have complained that rebounding is undervalued and scoring over valued. I would point out that scoring inefficiently is barely valued at all and can actually have negative value. Scoring efficiently is the fastest way to bring up one&#8217;s EFF/PER though. The arguments are probably valid but I think it makes sense because at the end of the day,t he winning team is the one with more points, not the one with more boards.</p>
<p>Also, offensive rebounds actually tend to be quite valuable to EFF/PER. Defensive rebounds are not valued very highly, but again, I think that makes sense. Most defensive rebounds, if the player who collected it had not done so, it still would have gone to a member of his team. That means the fact that he grabbed that rebound was not actually very valuable at all. Of course, some players get a higher percentage of boards that would have gone to teammates and some get a higher percentage of those that would have gone to opponents. But since the box score doesn&#8217;t show which are which, PER/EFF obviously can&#8217;t account for that.</p>
<p>I would say that what PER/EFF most undervalues is actually blocks. Because, to the best of my understanding, it doesn&#8217;t account for the fact that by and large, shots that get blocked are close to the rim and have a significantly better chance of going in (if not blocked) than average shots.</p>
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		<title>By: Max</title>
		<link>http://www.pistonpowered.com/2012/04/greg-monroe-demands-an-increased-role-gets-it-looks-smart/comment-page-1/#comment-63880</link>
		<dc:creator>Max</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Apr 2012 20:43:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pistonpowered.com/?p=9754#comment-63880</guid>
		<description>Also, I don&#039;t why it is true but EFF doesn&#039;t undervalue rebounding the way PER does.  Dennis Rodman for instance is an 18 point something in eff but by PER he is a slightly under average player for his career.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Also, I don&#8217;t why it is true but EFF doesn&#8217;t undervalue rebounding the way PER does.  Dennis Rodman for instance is an 18 point something in eff but by PER he is a slightly under average player for his career.</p>
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		<title>By: Max</title>
		<link>http://www.pistonpowered.com/2012/04/greg-monroe-demands-an-increased-role-gets-it-looks-smart/comment-page-1/#comment-63879</link>
		<dc:creator>Max</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Apr 2012 20:37:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pistonpowered.com/?p=9754#comment-63879</guid>
		<description>That&#039;s fine but a big goal I would think is to get Monroe to play more minutes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That&#8217;s fine but a big goal I would think is to get Monroe to play more minutes.</p>
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		<title>By: Max</title>
		<link>http://www.pistonpowered.com/2012/04/greg-monroe-demands-an-increased-role-gets-it-looks-smart/comment-page-1/#comment-63878</link>
		<dc:creator>Max</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Apr 2012 20:36:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pistonpowered.com/?p=9754#comment-63878</guid>
		<description>The decisions are personal and arbitrary in the sense that some stats are considered more important than others.  One big criticism I have of PER in general is that I feel it grossly undervalues rebounding.  The list of best players you get from PER doesn&#039;t just skew for minutes but also overvalues field goals and undervalues rebounding.  Hollinger may have rationals for why he weights certain stats but that doesn&#039;t make his reasoning a correct objective formula.  At the end of the day, there is no formula for winning that can be called objectively true and anyone trying to come up with one number to all of the stats will have to confront decisions about the relative value of each stat.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The decisions are personal and arbitrary in the sense that some stats are considered more important than others.  One big criticism I have of PER in general is that I feel it grossly undervalues rebounding.  The list of best players you get from PER doesn&#8217;t just skew for minutes but also overvalues field goals and undervalues rebounding.  Hollinger may have rationals for why he weights certain stats but that doesn&#8217;t make his reasoning a correct objective formula.  At the end of the day, there is no formula for winning that can be called objectively true and anyone trying to come up with one number to all of the stats will have to confront decisions about the relative value of each stat.</p>
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		<title>By: tarsier</title>
		<link>http://www.pistonpowered.com/2012/04/greg-monroe-demands-an-increased-role-gets-it-looks-smart/comment-page-1/#comment-63864</link>
		<dc:creator>tarsier</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Apr 2012 18:33:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pistonpowered.com/?p=9754#comment-63864</guid>
		<description>Taking more shots may be more tiring if it were done on a massively different level. And I haven&#039;t talked with a lot of big time scorers, I admit. But in my personal experience, and that of just about everyone I know, by far the most tiring part of playing basketball is playing D.

Anyway, that is hardly the point, because a &quot;massive&quot; difference int he number of shot attempts for someone like Monroe would be maybe 4 more a game. Even if shooting is considerably more tiring than setting screens, getting open, running plays, boxing out for boards, and all the other things that must be done on offense regardless of who is shooting, there is no way I will buy that putting up 3 or 4 more shots per game would reduce the minutes Monroe could handle by anything significant (2 at max).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Taking more shots may be more tiring if it were done on a massively different level. And I haven&#8217;t talked with a lot of big time scorers, I admit. But in my personal experience, and that of just about everyone I know, by far the most tiring part of playing basketball is playing D.</p>
<p>Anyway, that is hardly the point, because a &#8220;massive&#8221; difference int he number of shot attempts for someone like Monroe would be maybe 4 more a game. Even if shooting is considerably more tiring than setting screens, getting open, running plays, boxing out for boards, and all the other things that must be done on offense regardless of who is shooting, there is no way I will buy that putting up 3 or 4 more shots per game would reduce the minutes Monroe could handle by anything significant (2 at max).</p>
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		<title>By: tarsier</title>
		<link>http://www.pistonpowered.com/2012/04/greg-monroe-demands-an-increased-role-gets-it-looks-smart/comment-page-1/#comment-63863</link>
		<dc:creator>tarsier</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Apr 2012 18:28:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pistonpowered.com/?p=9754#comment-63863</guid>
		<description>As for the ides that the value of stats poured into PER and EFF are arbitrary and personal, you should read up more on how these things are calculated before talking about them at such length. Hollinger didn&#039;t just say &quot;I think a block should be worth x points and a rebound worth y points.&quot; What he did was to find the average number of points scored per possession and basically built everything around that. So if you use up a possession (by shooting or having a TO), you are docked the number of points an average possession is worth. But of course, if your consumption of the possession led to points (your shot went in) you get the points for making the shot. For a steal, you are credited with the value of a possession because you have cost the other team a possession. For a block, you get part of a possession based on statistical odds of the defending team recovering the ball after a block. For a rebound, you get the value of a possession multiplied by the odds that the other team would have collected the rebound if you didn&#039;t. Assists are the only stat I don&#039;t know about. I&#039;m assuming Hollinger has some statistical machination to give a fair value to them, but it&#039;s possible that that is the one stat for which you are right that it is personal and arbitrary.

But the moral of the story is that just because you don&#039;t understand how something is calculated doesn&#039;t mean it isn&#039;t done objectively.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As for the ides that the value of stats poured into PER and EFF are arbitrary and personal, you should read up more on how these things are calculated before talking about them at such length. Hollinger didn&#8217;t just say &#8220;I think a block should be worth x points and a rebound worth y points.&#8221; What he did was to find the average number of points scored per possession and basically built everything around that. So if you use up a possession (by shooting or having a TO), you are docked the number of points an average possession is worth. But of course, if your consumption of the possession led to points (your shot went in) you get the points for making the shot. For a steal, you are credited with the value of a possession because you have cost the other team a possession. For a block, you get part of a possession based on statistical odds of the defending team recovering the ball after a block. For a rebound, you get the value of a possession multiplied by the odds that the other team would have collected the rebound if you didn&#8217;t. Assists are the only stat I don&#8217;t know about. I&#8217;m assuming Hollinger has some statistical machination to give a fair value to them, but it&#8217;s possible that that is the one stat for which you are right that it is personal and arbitrary.</p>
<p>But the moral of the story is that just because you don&#8217;t understand how something is calculated doesn&#8217;t mean it isn&#8217;t done objectively.</p>
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		<title>By: tarsier</title>
		<link>http://www.pistonpowered.com/2012/04/greg-monroe-demands-an-increased-role-gets-it-looks-smart/comment-page-1/#comment-63862</link>
		<dc:creator>tarsier</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Apr 2012 18:20:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pistonpowered.com/?p=9754#comment-63862</guid>
		<description>I did concede that EFF leaders will read out more like a list of the best players in the league. Also, I explained why. And why it is totally useless in a discussion of whether someone would be playing more or less--PER is definitely not perfect but it is better for that.

While PER and EFF are more confusing than ppg and pp36, the comparison is still totally apt because the confusion does not stem from possession adjusting EFF into PER, it comes from starting with a conglomerate stat like EFF. In fact, the adjustment to PER is even better than the adjustment to per 36 minutes. Because it doesn&#039;t just account for court time but for total opportunities.

But yeah, assuming a list of the top PER performers will read out as the top players in the league is like assuming a list of points per 36 min leaders will read out as the best scorers in the league. By and large, it will be close, but it will have some egregious errors caused by small samples. You just have to ignore the players that don&#039;t play much.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I did concede that EFF leaders will read out more like a list of the best players in the league. Also, I explained why. And why it is totally useless in a discussion of whether someone would be playing more or less&#8211;PER is definitely not perfect but it is better for that.</p>
<p>While PER and EFF are more confusing than ppg and pp36, the comparison is still totally apt because the confusion does not stem from possession adjusting EFF into PER, it comes from starting with a conglomerate stat like EFF. In fact, the adjustment to PER is even better than the adjustment to per 36 minutes. Because it doesn&#8217;t just account for court time but for total opportunities.</p>
<p>But yeah, assuming a list of the top PER performers will read out as the top players in the league is like assuming a list of points per 36 min leaders will read out as the best scorers in the league. By and large, it will be close, but it will have some egregious errors caused by small samples. You just have to ignore the players that don&#8217;t play much.</p>
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		<title>By: Max</title>
		<link>http://www.pistonpowered.com/2012/04/greg-monroe-demands-an-increased-role-gets-it-looks-smart/comment-page-1/#comment-63856</link>
		<dc:creator>Max</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Apr 2012 17:24:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pistonpowered.com/?p=9754#comment-63856</guid>
		<description>And the comparison to per 36 minute numbers is poor because it&#039;s easy to understand exactly what the stat means and doesn&#039;t fill me with any ambivalence.   PER and EFF for that matter are warped metrics because the people who created them valued certain numbers over others and their decisions are somewhat personal and arbitrary.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And the comparison to per 36 minute numbers is poor because it&#8217;s easy to understand exactly what the stat means and doesn&#8217;t fill me with any ambivalence.   PER and EFF for that matter are warped metrics because the people who created them valued certain numbers over others and their decisions are somewhat personal and arbitrary.</p>
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