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Rodney Stuckey, Tayshaun Prince and Austin Daye all received interest at trade deadline

Jeff Zillgiit of USA Today:

Pistons took calls (Tayshaun Prince, Rodney Stuckey, Austin Daye) & made calls but person w/knowledge says deal unlikely at trade deadline.

It’s a little disappointing — everyone wants their team to get caught up in the excitement of trade deadline day, after all — but the Pistons’ best chances for more wholesale roster changes will be after the season anyway, when they add draft picks, possibly use the amnesty provision and have a full offseason that doesn’t include a lockout and a coaching search to make trades.

88 Comments

  • Mar 15, 20123:12 pm
    by Mark

    Reply

    I understand not trading Stuckey and Tayshaun, but what reason is there to keep Austin Daye, if you are going to keep Tayshaun too? He’s never going to play and then just leave you with nothing. Plus with Singler you already have Daye’s replacement.

    Unless teams were offering nothing more than a 50-60th pick, I cant come up with a logical explanation for keeping Daye.

  • Mar 15, 20123:30 pm
    by jon

    Reply

    dumars is stupid for not trying to save his career as the pistons GM buy trading players to get players that can help them out more and help the young stars (knight and monroe) rather keep prince, daye, bynum, gordon, villanueva and everyone else but knight and monroe

    i cant stand that dumars is just sittign by and saying we will have to look at fixing our problems in the offseason

    umm all the players you got other then thru the draft is damien wilkins who really aint all that great player to have….TRADE DEADLINE IS THE TIME TO DO A TRADE IDIOT

    dumars does know what hes doing around the trade deadline and while seeing others getting players the pistons were looking at but by keeping players for nothing and letting go someone that had some value in richard hamilton

    we couldve traded hamilton and got something instead of buying him out fully

    WELL HOPE YOU DO SOMETHING AND IF NOT….YOU SHOULD BE FIRED

    • Mar 15, 201211:53 pm
      by Dan Feldman

      Reply

      The Pistons couldn’t have gotten any value for Hamilton. Reportedly, they would have had to give up a first-round pick just so another team would take him.

  • Mar 15, 20123:30 pm
    by Richard

    Reply

    After the Ben and Charile deals a few years ago the team is more cautious with deals now.. I would have loved to see the team make a deal for Marcus Morris from the Rockets.. Both guys not getting playing time plus I think Marcus would have fit better here.. And who knows if Kyle is going to play with the team next year. I just hope they get it right this summer in the draft. The last two year they did.. So i can see them keeping the same spot in the lottery this year so if Sullinger, Gilchrist, Terrence Jones or Perry Jones are there take em.. This is the order I value each draft pick too..

    • Mar 15, 20125:45 pm
      by brgulker

      Reply

      Why would free agency signings make Joe gunshy over trades?

  • Mar 15, 20123:38 pm
    by frankie d

    Reply

    what a crock of nonsense.
    joe d has been saying the same – or similar – nonsense forever.
    every year its the same old stuff.
    every freaking year the same old nonsense.
    it’s not as though he doesn’t need to do things.
    its not as though there aren’t obvious moves to make.
    i’d bet he could have moved tay for a first rounder at least.
    and he comes back with the same team.
    keeping daye and stuckey makes sense, but the only way keeping tay makes sense is because of the schoolboy crush that joe d has on him.
    look at what portland just did.
    their season was heading south and did they just sit on their hands and do nothing?
    no, they traded gerald wallace to NJ for a 2012 top 3 protected first rounder, shawne williams and okur.
    great trade.an absolutely great trade.  the only danger is if NJ gets lucky and gets a top 3 pick.  otherwise, portland just pulled a lottery pick in exchange for an older guy who is while still good, on the downside of his career.
    and they also traded marcus camby for jonny flynn and thabeet.  they will probably keep flynn and dump thabeet.
    another good move.  they trade an older guy who was not in their long term plans for two prospects.  they will probably keep one and get cap relief from the other
    so in total, the blazers get a lottery pick from NJ, and two prospects who might translate into cap space or a decent player considering what happens the rest of the year.
    and in the meantime, detroit is sitting on its butt…
    nene is supposedly going to denver for mcgee…i guess george karl thinks he can handle mcgee.

    • Mar 15, 20123:50 pm
      by Patrick Hayes

      Reply

      “i’d bet he could have moved tay for a first rounder at least.”

      Source?

      “look at what portland just did.”

      Firesale, then fired their coach?

      “otherwise, portland just pulled a lottery pick in exchange for an older guy who is while still good, on the downside of his career.”

      Right. He’s also way better than Prince and a former All-Star. He also has two fewer years on his contract. So using that deal as an example of how easily the Pistons could’ve traded Prince for a lottery pick is not a good argument. Also, the Nets are really stupid.

      “they trade an older guy who was not in their long term plans for two prospects.”

      Love that you fail to mention Camby’s biggest selling point, his huge expiring contract. That makes a significant difference, no? You think Houston is trading for him if he has Prince’s years/money? Of course not. But never let facts get in the way of a poor argument.

      “detroit is sitting on its butt”

      By just about every local and national account, they were active. No one wanted what they had to offer. It happens.

      • Mar 15, 20124:02 pm
        by frankie d

        Reply

        “By just about every local and national account, they were active. No one wanted what they had to offer. It happens.”
        it happens every year.
        i agree that the nets are truly stupid.  i have no idea why they made the deal.
        but, as wc fields said, there’s a sucker born every minute.
        unfortunately, joe d has transformed into the league’s sucker.
        i never claimed i knew that tay could be traded for a first.  i said, “i bet..” which infers that i have no knowledge, but i am willing to wager on certain facts.
        portland has signified they are in full rebuild mode.
        nate mcmillan is not a coach who handles young players well.  he just is not.  he does not trust them and is therefore not the coach to handle a rebuild.  while i don’t necessarily agree with the move, i definitely understand it.  it makes perfect sense if you are going to rebuild your team.
        what is good is that they didn’t stumble around for years, imagining that they’d be able to muddle through to a mediocre finish.  they haven’t like what was going on this year, they made quick, decisive moves and they are heading in a very obvious direction. 
        much, much better than 3 years of god knows what and then finally saying – that the team is rebuilding – what should have been said years ago.
        i’m certainly not saying the blazers have handled things perfectly..they’ve made some decisions i’ve thought were god- awful.
        but they are obviously being a lot more proactive and aggressive and trying to fix their problems.  and in the meantime joe sits around with his thumb up his behind and continues on in a half-rebuild/half-playoff push that is leading to at least 2-3 more years in the wilderness.

        • Mar 15, 20124:55 pm
          by Laser

          Reply

          But, see, it’s WORSE than that, Frankie. They FINALLY admit the team is rebuilding, they go 12-7 during a soft stretch against mostly teams that are just doing a better job of tanking than us… then suddenly they’re standing pat like they’re convinced they’ve turned a corner or something. It’s maddening.

          • Mar 15, 20125:48 pm
            by brgulker

            +1

            I wish more people would realize that this recent winning is as much the result of an easy schedule than anything else. And it only gets harder from here.

        • Mar 16, 201212:22 am
          by Dan Feldman

          Reply

          “what is good is that they didn’t stumble around for years, imagining that they’d be able to muddle through to a mediocre finish.”

          Yes, Portland — first-round exits the last three years and a 41-41 record the year before — did a great job of not getting stuck being mediocre. 

          “but they are obviously being a lot more proactive and aggressive and trying to fix their problems.” 

          They’ve definitely been more proactive. The biggest reason: They have better players to work with. 

          “and in the meantime joe sits around with his thumb up his behind and continues on in a half-rebuild/half-playoff push that is leading to at least 2-3 more years in the wilderness.”

          Hasn’t Dumars pretty clearly said he wouldn’t make a move that helped the team only this season and not in the future? Moves like signing Wilkins don’t necessarily mean the Pistons are selling out for a playoff push. There’s a reasonable case to be made Wilkins will make Daye better in the long run. Will that happen? I have no idea. You don’t either. Is that the better plan than gifting Daye playing time? I don’t know. But it’s a reasonable plan.

      • Mar 15, 20124:39 pm
        by frankie d

        Reply

        btw, firesale hardly describes what portland just did.
        they got two prospects for one of the league’s oldest players who was on an expiring contract.
        and oh yea, both the prospects are on the last year of their deals too.
        and they trade a 30 year old SF in his 11 year for a lottery pick from one of the league’s worst teams in one of the deepest drafts in years. 
        firesale, hardly.  a great, great move  where they got much more quality back than they probably ever imagined.  and it makes one wonder what NJ’s GM has been smoking. 
        and oh yea, that vet hold an option for 11 million next year that he would be crazy not to exercise.
        one of the best trades i’ve seen since chauncey for AI.  ( if you’re denver, obviously.)

        • Mar 15, 20125:49 pm
          by brgulker

          Reply

          Thabeet and Flynn aren’t prospects, though. They’re busts on an expiring contracts. Portland is blowing it up, not looking for young talent.

          • Mar 15, 20126:26 pm
            by frankie d

            agree with that view, basically.  not a fan of either.
            however, they will keep them on the roster and instead the blazers waived oden and chris johnson, so they will be on the roster and they aren’t quite old vets.  who knows, either of them might just turn into something.  not likely, of course, but its better than getting 31 year old journeymen.

          • Mar 16, 201212:25 am
            by Dan Feldman

            If the Blazers are so smart, why did they cut two young players and keep 39-year-old Kurt Thomas?

  • Mar 15, 20123:45 pm
    by Laser

    Reply

    It’s more than “a little disappointing.” Joe Dumars should be traded to the glue factory.

    The Pistons’ recent improvement isn’t just bad for the team because of the lottery balls it’s costing us, but it’s just another bullshit reason Joe thinks he can sit on his fat ass and do fucking nothing while the fanbase suffers and dwindles.

    He made this mess, he’s had nothing but time and excuses to get something done, and he sits on his fat fucking hands and does nothing. You put the fucking roster together; nobody got here by accident. The team’s been losing games CONSISTENTLY at a 66% clip and is going nowhere. He can’t do a fucking thing about it.

    The company line: “Wait til the offseason.” Then when the offseason comes and Joe can’t do SHIT to fix this fucking thing, it’s: “Wait til the trade deadline.” I wanna skin that motherfucker alive. I wish he at least had the decency to fucking quit already. He doesn’t fucking DO ANYTHING. Just takes the best available guy when he slips down in the draft. Fucking A.

    • Mar 15, 20123:53 pm
      by Patrick Hayes

      Reply

      You are not a smart person.

      • Mar 15, 20123:57 pm
        by Reaction

        Reply

        The only thing is we have been assuming that Dumars had his hands tied down when Karen Davidson owned the team… it would be expected that there would be some movement of the sort at the very least.. Not saying its always possible though

        • Mar 16, 201212:34 am
          by Dan Feldman

          Reply

          If there were a chance to move Gordon and Villanueva, it was while Dumars’ hands were tied. Now, it’s too late. Everyone knows those two can’t play anywhere near what their contracts call for.

      • Mar 15, 20124:05 pm
        by Laser

        Reply

        @Hayes: That might hurt if you actually thought it was true, which you couldn’t possibly.

        • Mar 15, 20124:09 pm
          by oats

          Reply

          I don’t know if it is true, but your comment he responded to certainly makes it sound true. I get the internet is the place to say stupid and hateful crap, but that post did make you look like a complete moron.

        • Mar 15, 20124:15 pm
          by Patrick Hayes

          Reply

          No, I really do. I’m fed up man. There was a time I appreciated some of your comments, understood the frustration, etc. Hell, at one time, you actually talked occasionally about things that were actually happening on the basketball court. Imagine that! Just watching the team you supposedly like play basketball! That time has passed. Your comments are not informed — as evidenced by your ridiculously stupid one earlier suggesting that you can’t find impact players in the middle of the lottery — or just full of over-the-top, hateful crap like this one. Tired of it. It’s not productive, it’s not intelligent and it’s beyond the bounds of being a passionate fan. You are ranting to rant and call attention to yourself. It’s pointless and it adds nothing to the conversation.

          • Mar 15, 20124:27 pm
            by Laser

            I don’t want attention. I want Joe to get the attention. I’m very smart, by the way. And I never said it’s impossible to find impact players in the middle of the lottery, just that the Stones weren’t going to turn into a contender with two more such picks. We’re not going anywhere.

          • Mar 15, 20124:44 pm
            by Patrick Hayes

            “I’m very smart, by the way.”

            Then present yourself like an adult.

      • Mar 15, 20124:24 pm
        by rick77

        Reply

        I like that retort Patrick, funny if I say so myself. I wonder what people had to say when we were winning? If team A does not want to trade with you then why would you trade for the sake of trading? If it does not make good basketabll sense then I would not make a mover either. Trying to appease this selfish, spoiled, rotten fanbase surely would be the last thing to do on my to do list.  Fans need to get over their NBALive Dreams and realize this business is like playing poker and its all about who folds first. Someone will be lsoing someone in the offseason and that is when we will pounce. Im sad McGhee is gone(crickets chirping) but on to the next one. BTW John Wall just got a big man which means they will win some games and maybe move past us in the standings. Other than that nothing new to report.

        • Mar 15, 20124:37 pm
          by Laser

          Reply

          1) There’s nothing spoiled about this fanbase. We’ve had nothing but prolonged misery for going on four seasons with no signs of stopping. We can’t even get sympathy from our fellows, who are too drunk on a decade-old championship to see that the emperor has no clothes.

          2) If Joe couldn’t make a GOOD trade, that’s fine; I don’t want him to make a bad move. It’s just that if he can’t do anything to improve the bad team he put together all on his own. I’d like him to take some accountability for his mismanagement of the team and let someone else do the job. He can’t do anything. He has nothing to offer. Fine. He should move on.

          • Mar 15, 20125:35 pm
            by tarsier

            #2 here is your one and only good point you frequently make. and i agree one hundred percent. it’s fine to say dumars wasn’t able to make a good trade; but if he can’t, let someone else give it a go. some gms clearly do manage to pull it off. stick to your points like this one and none of your batshit crazy talk about skinning people alive.

          • Mar 15, 20125:55 pm
            by rick77

            Cmon Laser were you hiding in cave on 04? Hey I hate losing just like the next man but I realize in professional sports that its not always about what we want as fans but what the team wants. I saw greatness 8years ago and several years after that. The Cavs for instance have won nothing and lost LeBron. Would you rather have LebRon and lose him and win nothing or know that the Stones were part of history. Look at this way Jope fleeced a lot of people back in the day how long do you think the same Gms will allow Joe to get in over on them? My problem is yall act like 30 other teams aint trying to win and that because you have an affinity for the Pistons that we should just be winning just because. The league goes in rotation and if you ask me the East is not loaded to teh point where Dumars cannot make a move to position the Stones back at the top. It takes time, and bitching and moaning everytime the man does or does not do anything won’t change anything. I am all for debate b ut to talk shit about the man liek you can do a better job is funny but maddening as hell. I like this blog because we all have great opinions and I appreciate the moderators for allowing a open and very engaging forum. It gets bad when people bitch to to be bitching because no matter how much you do it ,things aint changing. I have a solution how bout you boys go become Gm and Ast Gm then see how hard it is to build a team then come back and see how much the board likes you and some of the moves you all claim you woudl have made.

          • Mar 15, 20126:00 pm
            by tarsier

            Also, I’d like to point out that this is really only the third season of misery. At least for most of us. While 2008-09 was hardly stellar, the Pistons were still good enough to root for them to win instead of for them to lose and there was the hope of free agency 2009. It was only about 24 hours into said free agency when misery began with the signings of BG and CV.

      • Mar 15, 20125:52 pm
        by brgulker

        Reply

        Actually, I agree with what Laser is saying, minus the vitriol and hatred (although I’ve certainly been angry as hell at Jod a handful of times the past few years).

        I think Dumars has probably convinced himself that his team is finally playing like the team he envisioned, while conveniently ignoring that the recent uptick in performance is coming against their easiest stretch of schedule.

        If there was interest in Tayshaun, and Dumars didn’t bite, he made a big mistake. It’s hard to imagine a viable trade for Tay that doesn’t make sense. Same with Daye.

        I understand holding onto Max and Stuck, though.

        • Mar 15, 20128:15 pm
          by Patrick Hayes

          Reply

          Ben, I don’t disagree with you, but there is a HUGE element here that is being glossed over: what the hell was that “interest” in Prince?

          I mean, a GM could’ve said “I’ll give you a shorter contract if you give me Prince and a first.” Now, that constitutes interest. And I’m not a Prince fan whatsoever. But to me, it’s not worth it to be rid of that contract if the price is an asset.

          Now, if there was a credible offer that had value to the Pistons that was turned down, that’s a different story and completely open to criticism. But short of knowing what “interest” means, I fail to see how anyone can credibly criticize for not making the move.

    • Mar 15, 20124:05 pm
      by Tiko

      Reply

      you wanna “skin that motherfucker alive”? 

      thats pretty fucked up..

      • Mar 15, 20124:39 pm
        by Laser

        Reply

        Look, if he resigns in disgrace, I’ve got no beef with him. But something has to give. This is not acceptable.

  • Mar 15, 20123:50 pm
    by frankie d

    Reply

    denver showed everyone how to conduct business.
    they sign nene to a big contract, retained their asset and then traded his butt.
    they get a young guy who apparently denver thinks they can resurrect.
    great move.

    • Mar 15, 20124:06 pm
      by Laser

      Reply

      It’s like the whole world’s gone crazy except me and Frankie D.

      • Mar 15, 20124:10 pm
        by oats

        Reply

        You were just talking about skinning a man alive, and you think everyone else is crazy?

        • Mar 15, 20124:18 pm
          by Laser

          Reply

          There’s no fate too harsh for Joe Dumars.

          • Mar 15, 20124:36 pm
            by oats

            Right… I understand getting worked up and saying something stupid. I mean shit happens, I’ve done it before. Now you’ve had someone call you out on it and instead of reflecting on it and realizing how mean spirited and stupid you sound, you actually defend it? You are either an idiot or a terrible person, and either way I’m done with reading what you have to say. Your screen name now means I should scroll down to the next comment. My not listening to you almost certainly means nothing to you, but I’m not saying this for you. I now just want it on record that I hate that even good internet communities get posts like these on them.

          • Mar 15, 20124:43 pm
            by Laser

            Eh. You can’t please ‘em all. For what it’s worth, I still like you and value your friendship.

          • Mar 15, 20125:57 pm
            by Youssif

            Like Oats above, I used to enjoy reading some of your comments… but wow, I can’t believe you’re standing by saying something like “I wanna skin that motherfucker alive”.
             
            Basketball is just a game man. Have some perspective, even within (hopefully) figurative language.
             

      • Mar 15, 20124:11 pm
        by frankie d

        Reply

        detroit fans have been drinking the kool aid for too long.
        for years, we were told that the only reason joe wasn’t active was because mean old karen wouldn’t let him do anything.
        now that mean old karen isn’t around, the organization goes back to the same old excuse they’d been putting out before: we were active but just couldn’t make any deals.
        funny, other teams are able to do deals, just not detroit.
        amazingly, portland just got a freaking lottery pick from NJ, a great trade.
        joe would rather keep his honeybun, tay, rather than trade him and pick up assets for his rebuild.
        what a waste!

        • Mar 15, 20124:25 pm
          by Patrick Hayes

          Reply

          This is dumb. How is it giving anyone a free pass to simply say, “Hey, they have a lot of shitty contracts for players who have underperformed. It’s probably hard to trade those guys.”

          Do we need to attach disclaimers all the time saying Joe Dumars signed those contracts? I mean, at some point, the past is common knowledge, right? He handed out really, atrociously bad contracts while getting rid of a few cheap, productive rotation players. Everyone knows this. No one disputes that that is what happened. But at some point, it’s not relevant to the present anymore, right? They are here. The owner of the team decided to retain him. The grown, thinking adults in this comments section can all understand that those bad contracts are not just going to be given away, right?

          Do you honestly think that  Dumars would’ve turned down what NJ offered for Wallace if they called and say, “We’ll give you this for Ben Gordon?” Of course he wouldn’t turn that down! But the little problem, that you just take a convenient hop, skip and a jump over in your arguments is that NO ONE IS OFFERING FIRST ROUND PICKS for anything Detroit would be willing to trade.

          The Spurs had to give away a first round pick just to get out of paying the last $10 million on Richard Jefferson’s deal in two seasons. Do you want to give away first round picks or good young players just to get out of paying these guys? Because I’m sure there are deals out there that could be made in that case. But that doesn’t really serve the long-term outlook of the team well, does it?

          • Mar 15, 20124:59 pm
            by frankie d

            i don’t get paid millions of dollars to do what joe d does.
            i just observe and comment.
            portland just traded an 11 year vet with an 11 million dollar option – at his disposal – for a top 3 protected lottery pick.  that is commendable work. 
            we know that joe had a very nice offer for tay last year that he turned down.
            we hear now that other teams had interest in tay.
            i have no idea what can specifically be done because i’m not party to negotiations, but i do know that other teams get rid of players that are on unattractive contracts, somehow, someway. 
            gilbert arenas was traded. rashard lewis was traded.  steven jackson was traded twice within 2 days.   guys on bad contracts get traded all the time.
            is it tough?
            i’m sure.  
            is it impossible?
            demonstrably not, as it is done frequently.
            i’ve never said he had to get a lottery pick in return for a guy like tay.
            but what i have said is that he needs to get rid of an almost schoolgirlish attachment to certain players, a “crush” on them that stops him from looking at them objectively.
            according to your chart above, it’s been almost 3 years since detroit made a trade.  during that time, the team has been one of the leagues worst teams.
            no one is saying trade, just for the sake of making a trade.
            but the fact that joe feels comfortable doing nothing says a lot about the hold he has on the local media.  
            instead of scrutinizing – and possibly criticizing his actions and non-actions  - the local media simply repeats the same recycled excuses he’s offered year after year for doing nothing.
            its laughable.  what happened to the karen davidson excuse?
            it is past the point of being ridiculous and dumb.
            what is dumb is refusing to trade a 10 year vet when you have young players chomping at the bit for playing time.
            what is dumb is nailing young players to the bench and refusing to play them  which allows their value to plummet, making a trade for them that much more difficult.
            what is dumb is allowing old retreads to eat up PT that should obviously be provided to younger players, and doing that year after year after year, while you are supposedly rebuilding.
            what is the point?  does the GM think the team is a playoff team?
            a lottery team?
            does he even have a clue?
            and how do any of his actions indicate exactly what the mission of the team is?
            while other teams are trying their best, detroit fans get more of the same old excuses they’ve heard year after year.
            and fans are supposed to be skeptical after they hear those excuses once again and somehow don’t believe them?

          • Mar 15, 20125:12 pm
            by Patrick Hayes

            “gilbert arenas was traded. rashard lewis was traded.”

            They were traded for each other. I think everyone who follows the league understands that guys on equally horrid contracts can be traded for each other on occasion. The downside to trading Gordon or V for a bad contract is you can’t use the amnesty on that bad contract you get in return. So if you trade for a dipshit (say Blatche) hoping the change will wake him up and it doesn’t, you don’t even have the amnesty to use on him in the offseason.

            “steven jackson was traded twice within 2 days.”

            The Spurs traded for him because he has one less year on his bad contract than Jefferson. They will save about $10 million this way. But they also had to give up a first rounder to do it. Again, everyone knows these types of trades — giving an asset with a bad contract to save money — exist. Does it make sense for the Pistons to give up a pick just to move a bad contract though? I’m not convinced it’s in their best interest.

            “no one is saying trade, just for the sake of making a trade.”

            You are, in fact, kind of saying that. You are insinuating that Dumars could’ve made trades, while admitting that you don’t know what was offered in return, and criticizing for not making said trades. To me, this sounds like advocating making a trade just to make one.

            “but the fact that joe feels comfortable doing nothing says a lot about the hold he has on the local media.”

            I’ve tiptoed around this before, but I’ll just say it: your media critiques are arrogant bullshit. Flat out. You aren’t privy to the access, relationship, etc. that guys have and you assume they are shills for the front office. That’s unfair and no one should take your opinion all that seriously on it.

            “what is dumb is refusing to trade a 10 year vet when you have young players chomping at the bit for playing time.”

            You are talking about Austin Daye here. This is funny to me.

             

          • Mar 15, 20125:38 pm
            by tarsier

            You have to concede that while he is talking about Daye, he is also talking about last year. And last year, Daye looked so much better than he does now.

          • Mar 15, 20125:41 pm
            by frankie d

            ““no one is saying trade, just for the sake of making a trade.”
            You are, in fact, kind of saying that. You are insinuating that Dumars could’ve made trades, while admitting that you don’t know what was offered in return, and criticizing for not making said trades. To me, this sounds like advocating making a trade just to make one.”
            not true.  but we do know that joe d had a chance to trade tay for butler and a first round choice last year and turned that trade down.
            that, imho, would have been an excellent trade.  a first rounder and cap space for tay and the ability to move on with your young players.
            great trade, and the fact that joe d refused to do it indicates bad judgment.
            regarding the media, i’ve been on both sides of the fence.  i’ve reported and understand the dynamic of writing something uncomplimentary about someone, and then trying to maintain a professional relationship with that person.  it is tough, and a delicate dance to conduct.   i’ve also been the guy that the local newspaper writer has needed to talk to, and i know what it feels like to have to deal from that perspective.
            unfortunately, the local detroit sports media tends to be lazy and cowardly.  instead of writing something that may make someone, like dumars, mad, they skirt around issues or do not write anything critical because they don’t want to deal with the difficulty of having continued contact with that person.  or their job may be in jeopardy because they have poor relations with important people that they have to have contact with.
            if you cannot see that, or if you are too close to the situation to be objective, sorry.  that is the way it is and most objective observers understand that.  guys like joe falls and mitch albom, both of whom peddle the most useless pablum have set the unfortunate standard in detroit.
            in fact, i have a simple question: can you point to a single article in the detroit news or the detroit free press that can be characterized as critical of dumars? anything that questions the moves he’s made over the last few years?
            i’d like to see that article.
            and i am talking about an article that examines the moves and objectively discusses the ramifications, not some soft pedaled piece that in passing mentions that things have not turned out the way joe thought they should have turned out?  no, something that runs down the good, the bad and the ugly and renders a judgment on the actions?
            i’m curious.  if you can’t find such an article, your  description of my critique has no weight.  surely any GM who has presided over a team with detroit’s bad record deserves criticism and i’d like to know which beat writer has even taken the time to objectively report on the missteps and miscalculations.   they haven’t, you know they haven’t and for whatever reason, it pains you to acknowledge it.
            if i am wrong, please provide the proof.
            if you cannot provide the proof, well, it will be obvious whose observations are arrogant bullshit.

    • Mar 15, 20124:39 pm
      by Patrick Hayes

      Reply

      “Denver showed everyone how to conduct business.
      they sign nene to a big contract, retained their asset and then traded his butt.”

      HAHAHA. Yeah. It’s that simple, Detroit. You, too, can get a young asset if you’re willing to trade your reasonably signed top five center.

      Frankie, your trade deadline analysis is whack. And you were calling out Broussard yesterday? Come on. You are comparing situations that have ZERO to do with Detroit’s. Denver traded a very good near All-Star for a potential-laden young player. Good for them. Detroit doesn’t have a very good near All-Star to trade (unless you count Stuckey, and I hesitate to call him a near All-Star based on six weeks worth of strong play).

      • Mar 15, 20125:18 pm
        by frankie d

        Reply

        no, the analogous player is tay.
        like tay, nene is a little older and on a contract that will probably be too expensive for his value.  in fact, nene is from the same draft.
        they resigned him, retained the asset and then flipped him for a younger prospect.  just yesterday, i posted that the way to deal with mcgee was to trade for him, audition him and then make a decision about his market value based on your relationship with him.
        that appears to be exactly what denver is doing.
        i never imagined that detroit could simply straight up get mcgee for tay.  what i did imagine was that they might be able to package other pieces along with tay and along with taking on blatche and do a deal.
        who knows if that was a possiblity.  it doesn’t matter.
        what does matter is that there is/was interest in tay out there and joe could have moved him for something.  what that something is, i guess we may find out as time goes on. trading him for a mid-to-low first would probably be reasonable.  i might have even considered something less.  addition by subtratction.  if portland can trade wallace for a high lottery pick, plus cap space, tay can surely bring something in return.
        whe joe d signed tay, my position was that it was justifiable as long as he was doing it as a way to retain the asset so that he might be able to flip tay for value later.   he’s failed to do that, and i doubt that he ever will do it.  tay will probably retire a piston, and that is whack.
        i’m not the only person who believes that bringing tay back makes no sense.  and the fact that joe d refuses to trade him, when given the chance is a sign of a confused organization that will probably continue to wallow in mediocrity for years.

        • Mar 15, 20125:31 pm
          by Patrick Hayes

          Reply

          Listen man, just because you write a lot of words doesn’t mean you have valid arguments here.

          I’ll save everyone the time of reading this: your premise is fatally flawed. There is nothing analogous between Nene and Prince. Nene is a top five center, a near All-Star, and reasonably signed based on the going rate for top flight centers. Prince has never sniffed an All-Star game, his ceiling is serviceable role player and his contract is at a premium price — he might not be overpaid, but if he’s not, he’s paid at the maximum level a player his age/skillset would typically get paid at. There is ZERO comparison between situations here. ZERO.

          • Mar 15, 20125:43 pm
            by tarsier

            Prince has in fact sniffed an all-star game. It is commonly believed that he was held out in 2006 because the coaches didn’t want to put in 5 Pistons. Regardless of whether that is true, Prince was a fringe all-star level player from 2005-2007. This is a bit like saying that Monta Ellis has never sniffed an all-star game.

            But yes, Nene has much more value than Prince, in spite of being in the midst of something of a down year.

          • Mar 15, 20125:53 pm
            by frankie d

            zero comparison.
            oh, i guess the following similarities mean nothing:
            they are both nba players
            they both are entering their 10th year
            they both have been with the same team their entire career
            they both signed contracts with their same teams this year, one signed for 5 years, the other – tay – for 4 years
            they have both been regarded as good, but not great players who are long time starters
            neither player has ever made an all star team, despite your description of nene as a “near all star” 
            but according to you, there is no comparison between the two players.
            you’d flunk a basic english composition course if you ever presented an essay with that as your thesis statement.
            i  have never stated that tay was as good as nene is at this point in their careers.
            what i have stated, which is something that you apparently have difficulty comprehending is that he is a player with demonstrable value.
            for you to try to argue that he has no value is as demonstrably false that it needs no response.
            you try to make the classic straw man argument, raising something i’ve never come close to arguing.
            pretty freaking dumb.

          • Mar 15, 20127:49 pm
            by frankie d

            i guess hollinger is an idiot also, cause his  very positive view of the trade – for denver – and of nene is very similar to mine.  his take on the trade:

            “McGee has become a YouTube sensation for all the wrong reasons, making a colossal mental error at least once a game. I may need to move to Denver just to watch George Karl’s reaction to coaching him.
            And yet I like this. I know how weird this looks, but hear me out. The Nuggets had buyer’s remorse on Nene from almost the day the contract was signed,….Nene is 29 years old and relies heavily on his athleticism, and at $13 million a year for each of the four years after this one makes him a major risk, especially since the Nuggets have a lot of other young, talented players who will need to be paid over the next three years.
            McGee, on the other hand, is 24 years old and hugely productive. He’s Nene’s equal as a finisher and scorer, and a much better rebounder and shot-blocker. He makes dramatically less than Nene right now, and while that gap will close this summer, the chill of restricted free agency should still allow the Nuggets to keep him for much less than the four years, $52 million owed Nene.
             
             
            Additionally, the Nuggets will get a huge trade exception out of this. If my cap math is right, they can slot both Turiaf and McGee just inside the $7 million exception left over from the Raymond Felton deal (seriously, how giddy must the Nuggets be about that trade?), and thus can do a straight deal of Nene into a $13 million exception.
             
            Basically, they amnestied Nene and got players back.
             
             
            So while I’d rather have Nene than McGee today, I’m not sure that’s true three years from now. And when you look at all the other cap management considerations, this is a nice deal for Denver.”

          • Mar 15, 20128:25 pm
            by Patrick Hayes

            Again, thousands of words don’t make your argument stronger. It’s still a straw man.

            You are arguing that because the Nuggets traded Nene for a young player with upside and trade exception, the Pistons could’ve done the same thing with Prince. I’m sorry, but that’s not evidence. Different players, different value, different positions, different market for each guy. Good trade for Denver if they think they can get through to McGee and if they think Nene’s injuries will prevent him from returning to form. But it has ZERO to do with Prince. It offers ZERO proof that there was a deal remotely similar for Prince out there that the Pistons could’ve made.

            This is an example of a credible argument: “The Pistons were offered X, Y and Z for Prince and turned them down. It was a stupid decision to turn them down.” But we don’t know that, do we?

            Let me use an example here: there are some people who believe rumors that Dumars at one time had a deal in place to trade Hamilton for Boozer that was nixed. Now, the anti-Dumars crowd is quick to point out that a rumor that has not been verified by any party is not evidence. How is this different? How is the Nuggets pulling off a trade with Nene that benefited them with youth and cap space evidence that the Pistons could’ve done something similar with Prince?

            The Hollinger thing you excerpted (generously, I might add) from doesn’t support what you are saying. That is my beef with this whole thread: I don’t care if people are critical of Dumars. I don’t necessarily have faith that he’s the right person to make the necessary moves to make the Pistons a contending team again. But I can also put those thoughts aside and objectively say, “It’s kind of unfair to criticize someone for not making moves when I don’t legitimately know that he was offered more than spare parts or garbage for them.”

          • Mar 15, 20129:40 pm
            by frankie d

            “You are arguing that because the Nuggets traded Nene for a young player with upside and trade exception, the Pistons could’ve done the same thing with Prince.”
            please refer to anyplace where i have stated this.
            i never have argued such a thing.
            i’ve indicated that heck, it would be nice, but then i’d like to have my way with beyonce for a night.
            what i have said repeatedly is that tay has value and that he could be traded for value – a draft pick, or picks, if necessary – and that the pistons would be better off if they traded him for just about anything.  it would be addition by subtraction.  getting rid of him would rectify several mistakes, including not trading him last year.  and it has been reported both last year and this year, that there has been interest in tay.
            based on joe not trading him and based on joe’s statements about him and based on his resigning, it is pretty obvious that tay has not been traded because joe refuses to trade him, not because there is no interest.
            there has been documented interest – according to published reports – and tay is still a piston.

      • Mar 15, 20125:48 pm
        by tarsier

        Reply

        Also, how is Nene a top five center? WHich of the following guys would you take Nene over?

        Dwight Howard
        Andrew Bynum
        Marc Gasol
        Al Horford
        Roy Hibbert
        Greg Monroe
        Tyson Chandler
        Joakim Noah
        Al Jefferson
        Marcin Gortat

        I’m sure there are arguments for him over several of these guys. But no way is he better than more than half of them. And I may have even missed someone.

        • Mar 15, 20128:27 pm
          by Patrick Hayes

          Reply

          This season, you’re right. Should’ve clarified that. He’s struggling with injuries and clearly not the same player right now that he was the last few seasons.

          But ask that question last year? He’d clearly be above Gortat, Chandler Monroe, Al Jeff and Hibbert. Dwight is clearly the top guy, but he was in the mix somewhere with Bynum/Marc/Horford/Noah.

          • Mar 15, 20129:54 pm
            by tarsier

            Absolutely true (last year, Nene would have garnered consideration for second best C). And we gotta expect Nene to bounce back a bit after fully recovering. But I still find top 5 a stretch. Nene cannot be assumed to be quite as good and several other guys have improved.

  • Mar 15, 20124:15 pm
    by Laser

    Reply

    To clarify: I understand the notion that the Pistons have almost no flexibility at all, so they received no tempting offers. I’m simply saying that the man who single-handedly assembled this roster and put them in a positon where they aren’t very good and have no flexibility should at least have the dignity to resign in disgrace.

    Now, I can’t fathom a world where inaction is the best course of action for this team (whether it be doing something with Bynum, Tay, Max, Daye), but the fact that the man responsible for this mess gets a free pass is beyond belief. Clearly he has nothing to offer this team, and the fact that he continues to draw a paycheck in this town baffles me.

    • Mar 15, 20124:29 pm
      by Mark

      Reply

      Have you even been watching the team for the past month or so?

      Dumars has a coach in place who is turning that mess of a team that Kuester had into a fundamentally sound winning basketball team right before our eyes.

      Frank is proving Dumars correct that he did have a decent roster in place, he just needed a good coach to make it work.

      Now, of course it isnt a great roster, so do expect miracles, but they look like a competent, cohesive, and competitive team again for the first time since the Billups trade.

      You can’t just bash him for all the bad trades in the past, and then ignore the positive steps that are being made in the present. Because thats all that really matters. What is he doing to get the team back on course from his mistakes. And right now, the hiring of Frank and this staff, the drafting of Knight, and the re-signing of Stuckey and Tay all look like good moves.

      Why? Because they are winning again, and that is the whole point of it all.

      • Mar 15, 20125:20 pm
        by Laser

        Reply

        YES! Stay the course! That’s what I’m talking about.

    • Mar 15, 20124:34 pm
      by Patrick Hayes

      Reply

      I have not read one person with the exception of the occasional outlier in the comments give him a “free pass.”

      He handed out atrocious contracts. He sold too soon and too low on a few cheap rotation pieces. His first two picks in the 2009 draft were wretchedly bad. Everyone knows and understands the reality of what those moves have done to the franchise over the last four years. But most thinking people (read: not you) also understand that the team’s owner is not getting rid of him. So it would be pretty stupid to sit around dwelling on the horrid choices he’s made in the past while talking about the present. Everyone knows why the Pistons aren’t making trades right now: it’s because they only have like four legit assets, and those are guys they’d probably rather hang onto. Personally, I would love to see Gordon, Villanueva go. But I also realize it would take giving up an asset to do it. So do I want one of them gone bad enough to also part with someone like Knight or Jerebko or a 1st round pick to facilitate another team taking on their contracts? No.

      As for the more minor deals, Daye is simple. His value is a second round pick. If you believe Daye sucks, you take the pick. If you believe Daye still has more upside than anyone you’d pick in the second round, you keep him. Bynum and Maxiell? It’s not like those guys are going to get less valuable heading into the final year of their contracts. If no one offers you anything for them, you try again in the offseason or at the next deadline. It’s pretty simple.

      Saying that it’s really difficult to trade players who don’t have a lot of value, which is the position most people take on here, isn’t being an apologist or whatever you want to call it.

      • Mar 15, 20125:52 pm
        by tarsier

        Reply

        By a free pass, I think he means that people aren’t calling for his head because of his demonstrable impotence in the area of cleaning up his own mess. And on that count, I agree with Laser. Dumars has made a ton of bad moves. Now, if a GM has a good team, just not screwing up is good enough. But when he makes a good team into a bad team and then is given a second chance, not screwing up is not enough. He has to at least try to fix things. If he can’t or won’t, let somebody else try to.

        • Mar 15, 20128:10 pm
          by Patrick Hayes

          Reply

          LOL … OK … so he was given a second chance this summer when Gores made the decision to retain him, right? So lockout, then short offseason, then season … and that’s it? Second chance over? I’m sorry, that just seems stupid to me, and I don’t honestly even consider myself in the “Joe has to stay” camp.

          I understand that cleaning up the mess is going to take time, whether it’s Dumars doing it or someone else. The owner made the decision that it will be Dumars. So he’s going to need more than a short offseason/trade deadline to do it. That’s just the way it is, people calling for the dude’s head are just setting themselves up for disappointment. It’s not going to happen right now.

  • Mar 15, 20124:20 pm
    by Mark

    Reply

    I dont get it. What did you want Dumars to do, go to Billy King with a gun to his head and make him choose Tayshaun over Gerald Wallace for their lotto pick?

    He chose Gerald Wallace, who is the better player. How is that Dumars’ fault?

    We are a rebuilding team. Rebuilding teams don’t have assets to trade. Thats why we are rebuilding.

    Teams that have assets to trade are either good teams who’s run has ended, who decide to blow it up, or bad teams who have disgruntled young talent that they are forced to trade because they didnt know how to develop them.

    You should be happy we are not in the latter like WAS. And also be happy we are much further along in the rebuild, than still at the beginning stage of blowing up a good team who’s run has ended. 

    We have Monroe, Knight, Stuckey, and our 1st round pick. Those are our main assets. Why would we trade any of them when all our playing great and are all we have to rebuild with?

    And now that Tay has settled in to his new role with this young team and playing like a true vet/mentor successfully, I’m fine keeping him. No reason to just trade him for a bag of balls. I’d rather keep him.

    Personally, I like how we have a set rotation now and are developing a winning culture again. To me, thats more valuable in the long run than acquiring 1 late 1st round pick or whatever.

    • Mar 15, 20124:47 pm
      by DetInDC

      Reply

      Word.

    • Mar 15, 20125:12 pm
      by Lorenzo

      Reply

      Kudos to Mark and Hayes for their posts; the delusional nonsense really needed to be condensed.

    • Mar 15, 20125:59 pm
      by RussellC

      Reply

      I see nothing wrong with staying put. They had nothing that they wanted to part with that would have brought any value by way of another first round pick. They have the beginnings of a strong foundation and are sure to get some help in this year’s draft to fill the hole in the frontcourt. They play hard, Monroe is good, Knight is not the turnover machine he was earlier and Stuckey is playing the way he should have been playing all along. Keeping those three together and adding a piece here and there they should be pretty good in the next year or two.

  • Mar 15, 20124:21 pm
    by Jamey

    Reply

    Love the Pistons staying where they are. Recently they have shown more promise than at any other time post-Chauncey. Stuck looks like a legitimate threat going forward, Knight keeps improving, Moose is already one of the better bigs in the league, and Prince is playing at his contract during this stretch. We need more at PF, but Max has exceeded my expectations as a starter already.  

    In my estimation, fans love trades as they want a quick fix despite the fact that this rarely occurs for championship franchises, especially ones that are not in major media markets (see Detroit). As a a result, keeping a team together is the most beneficial route when the team is displaying signs of chemistry, effort, and improvement. All of this is occurring under Frank, the team is 12-7 over the last 19 games. The next portion of the schedule is challenging, but at this rate I expect a few solid road wins and the playoffs to stay within sight the remainder of the season.

    I fail to understand the logic behind “aspiring” for a high draft choice. Nothing is guaranteed in the draft and more than anything you have to improve in incremental fashion. Look at OKC, they went from a doormat, then to a young rising team in the playoffs, then to a top 8 team, and now to a top 3 team. It took years even with players of Durant, Harden, and Westbrook’s caliber. And even that was a quick turnaround, i.e., I’ve never seen a team go from a 20 win team to a 60 win team in a year. So, I am delighted by the progress we are seeing and expect the team to continue to improve under Frank who looks like Joe D’s best hire since LB.

  • Mar 15, 20125:30 pm
    by Jodi Jezz

    Reply

    I guess Dumars didn’t find a trade he liked…We all don’t know what was going on when Dumars was making calls and receiving calls…But one thing we all should be glad about is Dumars was active and he was getting offers for our players…Maybe we’ll get something done in the summer time…

  • Mar 15, 20125:42 pm
    by frankie d

    Reply

    greg oden has been waived by the blazers.

    • Mar 15, 20126:02 pm
      by Reaction

      Reply

      Sign em and pray Arnie can save his career

    • Mar 15, 20126:07 pm
      by Youssif

      Reply

      I know he can’t shoot the three, is a solid defender when healthy, puts forth effort, and is therefore a misfit culturally with the rest of the veterans, but I’d roll the dice and sign him.

  • Mar 15, 20126:10 pm
    by tarsier

    Reply

    Wow, I don’t know when I last read a post that I by and large agreed with the comments of Laser and Frankie D and disagreed so much with Patrick. These are weird times.

    Dumars has let this team down time and again by standing pat. He made the team terrible and has not done anything to fix it. Time for somebody else to try to. And come on, this is a bad team. It is ok for bad teams to take risks. Doing nothing is both boring and unhelpful. Dumars as a GM looks like Daye as a player. he showed some real falshes of brilliance before. But after some bad misses, he isn’t even taking shots anymore. Dumars has, however, drafted pretty well. Let him stay on with the scouting department if he wants to.

    • Mar 15, 20128:57 pm
      by Patrick Hayes

      Reply

      That’s your right I guess.

      Honestly, I’m not even trying to defend Dumars on this thread. I’m trying to defend sanity.

      - It is insane to me to criticize someone for not accepting trade offers when we DON’T KNOW WHAT WAS OFFERED. If he turned something credible down, by all means, fire away. But I don’t know that he did, and in reality, understanding the lack of assets this team has, I truly believe he wasn’t offered anything of value. That makes more sense to me until I’m proven otherwise.

      - I get that people are mad about the past. I’m mad too. Dumars made horrid signings, botched the first two picks in the 2009 draft badly and gave away two useful, cheap players to sign less useful expensive ones. Those moves all played an equally big role in him being handcuffed from making moves as the ownership situation. He deserves a large share of the blame, although the ownership situation certainly made it more complicated.

      - The new owner HAD ALL OF THIS INFORMATION AND MORE at his disposal when he decided to retain him. Gores hasn’t made any moves so far that strike me as rash (as evidenced by his drawn out coaching search/interview process, hiring a consultant, adding new front office roles, etc.). So I don’t think he retained Dumars without thinking about it and I don’t think he retained him and then was caught off guard that Dumars would re-sign Prince. Gores was on board with that move. So even if fans hate it, there’s a more than good chance that the dude signing the checks believes in the vision, whatever that may be.

      Putting these concepts together, I feel like: A. It would’ve been hard to make a sensible trade today no matter who the GM was b/c the only real assets on the roster are guys who are probably not worth parting with; B. Cheap players who the team might part with like Daye and Bynum have under-performed, hurting their market value; C. Expensive players like Gordon, Villanueva and Prince have played terribly for most of the season, hurting their value; even Maxiell’s overall numbers aren’t great because he got off to a bad start to the season before coming on; D. Looking around the league, team’s that successfully shed salary either had to give up assets to do it (like the Spurs giving up a future No. 1 pick to dump Jefferson) or dealt with teams who stupidly over-valued big name players with injury problems (NJ with Wallace, GS with Bogut and the Wiz with Nene). None of the Pistons high-salaried players filled the needs that those dumb teams were looking for (centers or a big name to try and convince a FA to stay).

      So yeah, criticize away. Be frustrated. I get it. But it’s maddening to read criticisms of trades that didn’t happen when we don’t even know what was offered. It’s maddening to read a hyperbolic lunatic talking about skinning someone alive (and he’s actually written worse than that) about one of the most respected people in the history of the league, whether he’s worthy of keeping his job or not. I get that a lot of people want Dumars gone, I do. I get the reasons, most of which I think are valid (even if I don’t necessarily think he should or shouldn’t go). I just don’t understand why common sense has to get tossed out the window in the discussion.

      • Mar 15, 20129:33 pm
        by frankie d

        Reply

        “It is insane to me to criticize someone for not accepting trade offers when we DON’T KNOW WHAT WAS OFFERED. If he turned something credible down, by all means, fire away.”
        for whatever reason you continue to disregard the fact that tay has repeatedly received attention.
        last year, dallas wanted to trade for him and joe d declined the offer.
        this year, the local papers reported that joe received calls on prince and he obviously did not trade him.
        those are two very specific examples of situations where he did not make trades of some sort that were available.
        and what is insane is the idea that casual fans who read papers and/or websites are supposed to have indepth and detailed knowledge of specific trade offers that teams contemplate.  obviously, no one outside of an organization, an agent and maybe players and family know about potential trades.  to argue that  fans cannot make logical judgments about available information – history of interest in trades for a player, contemporaneous interest in that player – and argue that the player could have and possibly should have been traded is ridiculous.  and of course, because the local media never really informs readers about specifics – how vague can you get – fans would have no way to discern whether joe ever passed up a good trade.
        in contrast, local portland writers reported on specific trades that were being discussed – crawford to LA or Minny; felton to LA – while detroit writers simply provide vague information about certain players being talked about in trades.
        lazy journalism at its detroit best.
        is that specific enough for you?
        in fact, i find your dishonest allusion to my not being specific enough hilarious.
        when i’ve brought up specific ways that the portland media is superior to detroit’s your response has been that i should stop the comparisons.  you seem to want it both ways.

        • Mar 15, 20129:56 pm
          by Patrick Hayes

          Reply

          “last year, dallas wanted to trade for him and joe d declined the offer.”

          STRAW MAN STRAW MAN STRAW MAN

          What was or wasn’t offered last year when Prince was playing better and had an expiring deal is IRRELEVANT to this year’s trade deadline.

          “this year, the local papers reported that joe received calls on prince and he obviously did not trade him.”

          Right. But what if those calls were to offer shit? Or to say, “We’ll take Prince’s contract if you give us your pick or Knight or Jerebko?” “Offers” or “interest” doesn’t mean there was a market for him. It could mean that people were trying to vulture in and get an asset out of taking on years/money of a contract.

          “those are two very specific examples of situations where he did not make trades of some sort that were available.”

          Uh … the second example has zero specifics in it.

          “and what is insane is the idea that casual fans who read papers and/or websites are supposed to have indepth and detailed knowledge”

          Uh … you don’t have to have in-depth knowledge. But you should at least know something that was offered. Last year, it was reported that Butler/first was offered, so that can easily be judged as bad or good. This year? We just know that “offers” were offered. I don’t think that’s enough info to say it was a failure to pass on it. You can choose the mystery door if you want. I’ll stick with hanging onto Prince into the offseason to see if something better comes along.

          “to argue that  fans cannot make logical judgments about available information”

          I’m not arguing that fans can’t. Fans can and do. You just aren’t making logical conclusions in these threads today. I’m saying that I can’t logically judge whether Dumars failed by passing on offers if I don’t know whether the offers are shit or not. If a team offered an expiring contract for Prince? Then yes, that was a fail. If a team offered to take Prince for an expiring if the Pistons gave an asset too? Then I would say Dumars made the right decision to pass.

          “in fact, i find your dishonest allusion to my not being specific enough hilarious.”

          I find your need to write thousands of words to say very little and your need to copy and paste everything John Hollinger writes hilarious. But C’est la vie I guess.

      • Mar 15, 20129:52 pm
        by tarsier

        Reply

        I agree wholeheartedly about how crazy Laser sounded. That’s part of why it is so unusual for me to agree with him. And yeah, we don’t know what Dumars was offered. But I’d like to see some effort. So out of curiosity, how long would you wait without seeing Joe do a single thing?

        • Mar 15, 201210:10 pm
          by Patrick Hayes

          Reply

          I expect this team to legitimately be a playoff team next year, and if they’re not, I’ll probably be ready to move on from the Dumars era.

          I wrote this in another comment a few weeks ago, and really believe it: the Pistons, along with the Lakers, Spurs, Celtics and Bulls, are the league’s elite, flagship franchises. Those teams have all earned that with their success over the last 30ish years. To me, it’s not acceptable for those teams to miss the playoffs for more than three consecutive years and this will be year three for the Pistons. You just don’t dare go much longer than that when you have a franchise with the history this one has and jeopardize ruining that status.

          As far as the blueprint to actually get there, I dunno. Could be a draft pick, a signing after an amnesty and Monroe taking another huge leap forward. Could be a trade. I don’t really care all that much about the how. The result should be continued, sustained improvement and a playoff spot. Short of that, it’s probably time for the team to move on from Dumars.

          Like I’ve said, I would’ve loved to see a trade made today. The logical side of me just believes that most likely, there was nothing on the table that would’ve had any benefit except for maybe salary relief at the expense of giving up an asset, and that, to me, is not a positive move.

  • Mar 15, 20126:56 pm
    by ottawa16

    Reply

    I think what Frankie D was talking about in regards to media not putting heat on Dumars has so validity. Its been the same articles about “not making a trade for sake of trade” or “cant make trade cuz of management issues”, bad contracts, etc. As fans the media is the median b/w us and the organization. So when the media puts out articles that basically say give Dumars a pass, thats what it feels like we’re representing which is false.

    Now I’m not on the fire Joe D b/c I look at both positive and negatives and also who do you replace him with…cant think of a candidate. This will sound crazy but we have talent on this team. We still do t have an identity. Are we run n gun(stuckey n knight) or half court (monroe n prince)? Is there a plan cuz it just seems we are content with just using the draft to make this team better. We just need an athletic big, period. Ive been saying the past couple of years, Dallas has har a couple of young bigs (Ian Mahinmi comes to mind) that would be perfect compliment. Its not a gaurantee we get that in the draft.

    • Mar 15, 20128:33 pm
      by Patrick Hayes

      Reply

      I don’t have problems with media criticism. It’s needed. If reporters/columnists get something wrong, if they’re sloppy, if their analysis is sloppy, whatever, it should be called out.

      My issue is that he’s assaulting the integrity of people. Essentially labeling people lapdogs for the organization and calling into question their integrity as journalists is unfair unless you have the proof to back it up. If I was criticizing something that was written somewhere, I would say, “this is wrong and here’s my counterargument as to why.”

      His version, what I find offensive, is to not point out specific things that have been written that are wrong or instances where someone is protecting Dumars or the front office. He speaks in generalities. Hell, two of the three main beat writers have been full-time on the Pistons beat less than two full seasons, and somehow they have histories of being lapdogs for the organization? I just think it’s a lazy, weak argument that he has as of yet never offered on specific example to back up. It’s his opinion, which is fine, it’s just a lazy generality.

      • Mar 15, 20129:20 pm
        by frankie d

        Reply

        that is simply not true.
        in fact, when you cited to something that vince ellis had written and i specifically criticized that piece and pointed out exactly why i criticized it, you made the same argument you are making now.  that i was attacking the integrity of the writers.
        i have been very specific in the past. in fact, i have contacted the writers directly to voice my concerns.  i have the emails to prove it and i’m more than happy to reproduce them.
        i have made a very specific charge: that the writers have never written an article that even objectively reports on the transactions in a way that reflects any sort of critical thinking.  they simply do not do it.
        and i also stated that they sit back and basically regurgitate press releases from the pistons.
        lo and behold, mr. ellis actually posts a comment where he specifically states that he would have written about a contractual transaction – daye and monroe’s extentions – but that he had not gotten a press release from the team and therefore did not report on it.
        what he wrote confirmed exactly what i have argued.  his words, not my arguments.
        so, yes, i have been very specific and to indicate otherwise is simply not consistent with the facts.

  • Mar 15, 20127:36 pm
    by vic

    Reply

    I agree with them not making a trade just to get press. 
    But I wish they would have moved Will Bynum or Austin Daye. True that Daye may not have had a lot of value, but Will Bynum would be a great backup to all the teams that openly said they needed a backup Pg. Joe D could have worked a little harder to sell that one. Its not like we need playoff injury insurance.

    Definitely pick up Greg Oden.

    • Mar 15, 20128:34 pm
      by Patrick Hayes

      Reply

      Bynum’s issue has been his nagging injuries this season and poor play when he was briefly in the rotation. Probably made teams more hesitant to consider him.

  • Mar 15, 20128:46 pm
    by Roit

    Reply

    so disappointed to hear about this .

  • Mar 15, 20128:46 pm
    by Daye and Knight

    Reply

    I would have liked to see a deal get done but I wasn’t really expecting one to happen…have any of you seen our roster? No one obtainable on here really screams out “Trade me!” just have to take our chances in the draft, no point in getting upset. Move on and get over it guys, the season isn’t over and the sky ain’t falling cause we weren’t able to get a second round pick…big f*ckin whoop

  • Mar 15, 201211:42 pm
    by OneBadMutha

    Reply

    The Nene trade has no relation to anything regarding the Pistons.  With the Nene/McGee trade, you had one team w/ buyers remorse and another team faced w/ either over-paying a guy or losing him for nothing.  They both played the same position.  Both teams made a risky move.  It could go boom or bust for both.
    Tay, on the o/ hand, is exactly what he’s always been.  Not great but serviceable.  Living up to his contract.  With his type of game, he’ll probably live up to his contract and continue to be serviceable.  He’s not good enough to trade for a lottery pick or prospect w/ any kind of upside….yet not bad enough or hand-cuffing the organization w/ his contract that it would make sense to just dump him for an expiring.
    This idea that you gut your roster of anyone who’s over the age of 24 when rebuilding is idiotic.  It’s videogame franchise mode…but it’s not what you do in real life.  It’s what Washington did…and how is Wall’s process of learning to win coming along?  You need vets to fill the gaps so that guys like Monroe and Knight can have realistic responsibilities and at least compete with a purpose. Let’s not forget that Cliff Robinson, Barry, and Michael Curry were screwing up Detroit’s draft position in their rebuild while Ben Wallace and eventually Chauncy, Rip and Tay would be filtered into a winning team.
    If Mike Valenti was brain-washing the local sports fans back then, you all would’ve clamored to have Dumars fired at that time as well.

  • Mar 16, 20129:35 am
    by Max

    Reply

    This is one screwy thread.  Bravo to Patrick for taking up the good fight for sanity.
    I’m fed up with Dumars not getting any credit for Monroe and more impatient with how blind some of you are regarding what Monroe means.   He is quickly becoming one of the best centers in the league and he is the opposite of a headcase.  All of this “Dumars has done nothing lately” flat out ignores that he just drafted the best big man the Pistons have drafted in several decades at least.
    Dumars reaped Monroe and Knight from two terrible years and he will have a chance to make another pick this year–I for one am not finding this year so terrible as there have been marked improvements.
    The frequent comment, “their recent turnaround had more to do with their schedule than anything else” ignores so many things that are evident to anyone watching the games.  Aside from Frank’s positive effect, the growing chemistry between players and the natural progression of Monroe and Knight, Stuckey has simply been playing out of his mind.  Whether he keeps it up is an open question but he has been a different player in the last month and it has been the major reason why they have looked like a much improved team.
    @Frankie D.   Dumars may simply differ with you entirely and wish to keep Prince.  I object to the notion that Dumars or any GM is bound to certain generalized prescriptions of how to run a team and there is no obvious rule as in a team should always trade this kind of veteran making this much for so and so.  Dumars may simply value what Prince brings and the issue isn’t ultimately important enough one way or the other to suggest whether Dumars is competent or not.  Your arguments on the issue lack all proportion and let me ask you since I know you follow Portland: How did trading a veteran asset PG in Andre Miller in exchange for a young PG in Raymond Felton work out?  Everyone applauded it but they’d be better right now and Nate would still be the coach if they had kept the veteran in his mid thirties.
    @Laser.  I agreed with Webber recently when he said that it was the poorly run franchises that caved in to their fan bases’ desires for moves.

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