Comments on: It took a while, but Grizzlies finally punish Pistons for poor shooting, turnovers http://www.pistonpowered.com/2012/03/it-took-a-while-but-grizzlies-finally-punish-pistons-for-poor-shooting-turnovers/ Your Go-To Source For Pistons Coverage Sun, 26 May 2013 02:49:57 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.4.1 By: Max http://www.pistonpowered.com/2012/03/it-took-a-while-but-grizzlies-finally-punish-pistons-for-poor-shooting-turnovers/comment-page-1/#comment-56542 Max Tue, 06 Mar 2012 21:13:52 +0000 http://www.pistonpowered.com/?p=9245#comment-56542 Who would argue BG is better than Prince? Also, I wasn't taking recent years.  I was talking history.   Billups was a better free agent.  You could argue Bison Dele was though I wouldn't.   That's about it.   Grant Long?   There is no reason for the Pistons to attempt to get under the cap.  It's downright counterproductive if anything.   Billups was a midlevel exception and that's all the Pistons will ever need for free agents because if they spend more they are going to be overpaying for the right to sign a player who didn't have more appealing options in terms of destination a la BG or CV. Also, no team has ever won a championship by first getting under the cap and if Miami wins; they will be the first.   Even there, it's not like the Pistons could get under the cap and sign LBJ and  Bosh. Who would argue BG is better than Prince?
Also, I wasn’t taking recent years.  I was talking history.   Billups was a better free agent.  You could argue Bison Dele was though I wouldn’t.   That’s about it.   Grant Long?   There is no reason for the Pistons to attempt to get under the cap.  It’s downright counterproductive if anything.   Billups was a midlevel exception and that’s all the Pistons will ever need for free agents because if they spend more they are going to be overpaying for the right to sign a player who didn’t have more appealing options in terms of destination a la BG or CV.
Also, no team has ever won a championship by first getting under the cap and if Miami wins; they will be the first.   Even there, it’s not like the Pistons could get under the cap and sign LBJ and  Bosh.

]]> By: tarsier http://www.pistonpowered.com/2012/03/it-took-a-while-but-grizzlies-finally-punish-pistons-for-poor-shooting-turnovers/comment-page-1/#comment-56429 tarsier Tue, 06 Mar 2012 14:21:59 +0000 http://www.pistonpowered.com/?p=9245#comment-56429 Does it matter? This question could be rephrased as "how often have the Pistons had significant cap room?" In recent years, once. And they seriously botched it on BG and CV. But there was no reason to believe that other players wouldn't have signed with Detroit had they been FAs. Players almost always follow the money. Also, one could argue that BG, crappy as he's been, is better than a 31 year old Prince. And I certainly believe that at the end of each of their deals, Gordon at 29 or whatever will be better than Prince at 35 or whatever. Does it matter? This question could be rephrased as “how often have the Pistons had significant cap room?” In recent years, once. And they seriously botched it on BG and CV. But there was no reason to believe that other players wouldn’t have signed with Detroit had they been FAs. Players almost always follow the money. Also, one could argue that BG, crappy as he’s been, is better than a 31 year old Prince. And I certainly believe that at the end of each of their deals, Gordon at 29 or whatever will be better than Prince at 35 or whatever.

]]> By: tarsier http://www.pistonpowered.com/2012/03/it-took-a-while-but-grizzlies-finally-punish-pistons-for-poor-shooting-turnovers/comment-page-1/#comment-56423 tarsier Tue, 06 Mar 2012 14:06:04 +0000 http://www.pistonpowered.com/?p=9245#comment-56423 I clearly recognize that you can't just double minutes and expect stats to double as I was saying who knows which player would be better if both got 30+ mpg. And lost in both stats is everything that doesn't show up in a play-by-play. But, if I recall correctly, a player is penalized for their scores that are assisted as some of the credit for the score ends up going to the player credited with the assist. And it is also definitely not fair to expect a player's production in 16 mpg to not increase dramatically by doubling his minutes. I clearly recognize that you can’t just double minutes and expect stats to double as I was saying who knows which player would be better if both got 30+ mpg. And lost in both stats is everything that doesn’t show up in a play-by-play. But, if I recall correctly, a player is penalized for their scores that are assisted as some of the credit for the score ends up going to the player credited with the assist.

And it is also definitely not fair to expect a player’s production in 16 mpg to not increase dramatically by doubling his minutes.

]]> By: Max http://www.pistonpowered.com/2012/03/it-took-a-while-but-grizzlies-finally-punish-pistons-for-poor-shooting-turnovers/comment-page-1/#comment-56320 Max Tue, 06 Mar 2012 05:43:58 +0000 http://www.pistonpowered.com/?p=9245#comment-56320 Yet another flaw of both stats is that it doesn't account for which players can create for themselves and which require circumstances to get them an open jumper.   Most small forwards can't get the ball up the floor as reliably as Prince and some don't do it well enough to even contribute in that area. Yet another flaw of both stats is that it doesn’t account for which players can create for themselves and which require circumstances to get them an open jumper.   Most small forwards can’t get the ball up the floor as reliably as Prince and some don’t do it well enough to even contribute in that area.

]]> By: Max http://www.pistonpowered.com/2012/03/it-took-a-while-but-grizzlies-finally-punish-pistons-for-poor-shooting-turnovers/comment-page-1/#comment-56318 Max Tue, 06 Mar 2012 05:39:40 +0000 http://www.pistonpowered.com/?p=9245#comment-56318 @FoodForThought  How many free agents as good as a 31 year old Tayshaun Prince have the Pistons signed in their entire history?  That's food for thought. @FoodForThought  How many free agents as good as a 31 year old Tayshaun Prince have the Pistons signed in their entire history?  That’s food for thought.

]]> By: Max http://www.pistonpowered.com/2012/03/it-took-a-while-but-grizzlies-finally-punish-pistons-for-poor-shooting-turnovers/comment-page-1/#comment-56312 Max Tue, 06 Mar 2012 05:29:02 +0000 http://www.pistonpowered.com/?p=9245#comment-56312 One major fault though is that anyone knows that you can't simply double the minutes of a player who plays 16 minutes a game and expect them to double their stats. Another is that the players who plays 16 minutes a game can devote much more of his energy to those 16 minutes a game. Another is that many a role player who comes off the bench has too limited of a skill set (can't play defense) to play with all of his team's lineups. Another is that the player who plays a lot of minutes might improve his individual efficiency in fewer minutes but at the expense of the team if the team does not have competent backups. There are 15 teams who don't have a small forward with Prince's EFF.   Lost in the debate over the who is an average starter is the fact that the NBA has a dearth of starting level small forwards.    I am playing in 5 fantasy leagues this year and in every draft, small forward was the position where the talent level dropped the quickest. One major fault though is that anyone knows that you can’t simply double the minutes of a player who plays 16 minutes a game and expect them to double their stats.
Another is that the players who plays 16 minutes a game can devote much more of his energy to those 16 minutes a game.
Another is that many a role player who comes off the bench has too limited of a skill set (can’t play defense) to play with all of his team’s lineups.
Another is that the player who plays a lot of minutes might improve his individual efficiency in fewer minutes but at the expense of the team if the team does not have competent backups.
There are 15 teams who don’t have a small forward with Prince’s EFF.   Lost in the debate over the who is an average starter is the fact that the NBA has a dearth of starting level small forwards.    I am playing in 5 fantasy leagues this year and in every draft, small forward was the position where the talent level dropped the quickest.

]]> By: tarsier http://www.pistonpowered.com/2012/03/it-took-a-while-but-grizzlies-finally-punish-pistons-for-poor-shooting-turnovers/comment-page-1/#comment-56285 tarsier Tue, 06 Mar 2012 03:43:29 +0000 http://www.pistonpowered.com/?p=9245#comment-56285 What PER says is that in however many possessions there are in 16 minutes, Novak contributes more than Prince does in the same number of possessions. What EFF says is that in 34 minutes of possessions, Prince contributes more than Novak does in 16 minutes. But does he contribute more than Novak would in that many possessions? We have no way of knowing. But at least in a limited role, Novak appears to be the better player (to the extent that PER or EFF can measure these things). Just like a guy who gets 10 rpg in 25 mpg is a better rebounder as best we can tell than a guy who gets 12 rpg in 40 mpg. What PER says is that in however many possessions there are in 16 minutes, Novak contributes more than Prince does in the same number of possessions. What EFF says is that in 34 minutes of possessions, Prince contributes more than Novak does in 16 minutes. But does he contribute more than Novak would in that many possessions? We have no way of knowing. But at least in a limited role, Novak appears to be the better player (to the extent that PER or EFF can measure these things). Just like a guy who gets 10 rpg in 25 mpg is a better rebounder as best we can tell than a guy who gets 12 rpg in 40 mpg.

]]> By: tarsier http://www.pistonpowered.com/2012/03/it-took-a-while-but-grizzlies-finally-punish-pistons-for-poor-shooting-turnovers/comment-page-1/#comment-56281 tarsier Tue, 06 Mar 2012 03:34:19 +0000 http://www.pistonpowered.com/?p=9245#comment-56281 Doesn't matter if the player affects pace. Because a higher pace will also mean the other team is scoring more, which isn't tracked by PER. That is why normalizing for pace really matters. My point for why EFF may be a decent guide is that it doesn't normalize for number of possessions (which is pace * minutes). But that will inflate the numbers of those with poor backups, and that definitely decribes Prince. Doesn’t matter if the player affects pace. Because a higher pace will also mean the other team is scoring more, which isn’t tracked by PER. That is why normalizing for pace really matters. My point for why EFF may be a decent guide is that it doesn’t normalize for number of possessions (which is pace * minutes). But that will inflate the numbers of those with poor backups, and that definitely decribes Prince.

]]> By: Max http://www.pistonpowered.com/2012/03/it-took-a-while-but-grizzlies-finally-punish-pistons-for-poor-shooting-turnovers/comment-page-1/#comment-56267 Max Tue, 06 Mar 2012 03:06:30 +0000 http://www.pistonpowered.com/?p=9245#comment-56267 When you look at PER, Prince is the 34th small forward but stupid things happen on that list like Steve Novak being 9th despite only playing 16 minutes a game.   With EFF, things like that don't happen. When you look at PER, Prince is the 34th small forward but stupid things happen on that list like Steve Novak being 9th despite only playing 16 minutes a game.   With EFF, things like that don’t happen.

]]> By: Max http://www.pistonpowered.com/2012/03/it-took-a-while-but-grizzlies-finally-punish-pistons-for-poor-shooting-turnovers/comment-page-1/#comment-56261 Max Tue, 06 Mar 2012 02:56:38 +0000 http://www.pistonpowered.com/?p=9245#comment-56261 http://www.nba.com/statistics/player/Efficiency.jsp?season=22011&league=00&conf=OVERALL&qualified=N&position=2&splitType=9&yearsExp=-1&splitDD=&pager.offset=0 http://www.nba.com/statistics/player/Efficiency.jsp?season=22011&league=00&conf=OVERALL&qualified=N&position=2&splitType=9&yearsExp=-1&splitDD=&pager.offset=0

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