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Greg Monroe carries Pistons in overtime loss to Clippers

Greg Monroe took Blake Griffin out of the game.

After letting Griffin move him out of the way for his game-tying tip-in late in regulation, Monroe scored on all three of his overtime possessions – including a tip of his own miss by darting past Griffin.

Monroe (23 points and 15 rebounds) belongs in games like today’s 87-83 overtime loss to a team that’s on its way to holding homecourt advantage in a playoff series, and he’s on his way to getting the Pistons to that stage. But he’s not ready to do it by himself – and unfortunately, besides Jonas Jerebko, Monroe didn’t have much help today.

When Monroe carved up Griffin, the Clippers brought in Kenyon Martin, who forced Monroe into a crucial miss. On the other hand, Monroe didn’t take his first shot of overtime until the Pistons trailed by four, thanks to his guards turning the ball over twice and missing a jumper.

On the bright side, the loss gets the Pistons one step closer to adding help around Monroe.

Dreadful guards

Rodney Stuckey (1-of-8 with two turnovers), Brandon Knight (3-of-14 with four turnovers) and Ben Gordon (3-of-11 with five turnovers) combined to shoot 7-of-33 with 11 turnovers.

At least Stuckey had an excuse. David Mayo of MLive:

Detroit Pistons guard Rodney Stuckey even found walking and pulling on a pair of jeans almost too painful to bear Sunday afternoon.

The Pistons lost 87-83 in overtime to the Los Angeles Clippers, a game they led by nine points in the fourth quarter, though the lingering issue is Stuckey’s left big toe, which rendered him a completely different player.

“It’s my foot, man,” Stuckey said. “That’s it. I’ve just got to get it right. It’s just been killing me the last couple of days. I just have to rest it and try to get it right. I thought it would be fine but it’s just like the more pressure on it, the more it hurts.”

Stuckey injured the toe late in Wednesday’s win at Sacramento. He played through it in a loss Friday at Utah, but exacerbated it in the first quarter Sunday.

The Clippers have an excellent set of defensive guards in Chris Paul, Randy Foye and – when he’s motivated like he was today – Nick Young. I would’ve liked to see Stuckey face that test, as I’m still not certain how much Stuckey has improved. He’s definitely better than he was last year, but how much?

For Knight and Gordon, the performance wasn’t that out of line.

Knight missed all seven of his 3-pointers, and most of his best offensive games this season have been based on standstill outside shooting. Until he develops a more well-rounded offensive game, he’ll be subject to cold games, as all 3-point shooters are.

Gordon is streaky and turnover prone. If you didn’t know that, you don’t know Gordon.

Hustle and grit and everything nice

Ben Wallace (+8) and Jonas Jerebko (+7) led the Pistons in plus-minus tonight for good reason. Wallace (seven rebounds and two blocks in 17 minutes) played staunch defense, and Jerebko (14 points, eight rebounds, a steal and a block in 29 minutes) was his usual, energetic self. Matt Moore of Hardwood Paroxysm put it well:

Jerebko’s one of those guys who if he played for Chicago, would be a cult figure. Such a good player.

In defense of Isolayshaun

Tayshaun Prince’s shot selection, especially late, came under fire for all his isolation looks. It’s unclear whether Prince or Lawrence Frank is most behind the sets, but the reviews are nearly all unfavorable.

As Patrick has bemoaned many times, Prince once again led Detroit in shots (17 tonight). I entirely agree with Patrick that Isolayshaun isn’t particularly fun to watch. But quite often, including tonight, it’s effective.

Prince scored 20 points on 20 plays. His teammates scored 63 points on 88 plays.

Maybe Prince’s teammates would score more efficiently if he did a better job getting them involved. That’s certainly possible. But, for now, Isolayshaun is an effective band aid when the Pistons’ offense is struggling.


  • Mar 18, 20127:12 pm
    by frankie d


    i am truly mystified: can anyone explain why frank went with a 3 guard lineup at the 5:22 mark of the 4th quarter?
    jerebko had been having an excellent game – he was laughing in the face of the clippers – and he sits at the end of the game?
    i’m curious…what was the rationale?

  • Mar 18, 20127:28 pm
    by John


    Hopefully ping pong balls.  No trade=need to upgrade some how.  I didn’t get to see the game though so I couldn’t tell you.  The box score definitely agrees with you though, with a +7 for JJ

    • Mar 18, 20127:39 pm
      by tarsier


      You know what trade I’d love to see (not necessarily from the Pistons)? Two GMs with comparable teams basically putting a bet on which of them will do better by trading draft picks at the beginning of the season. It would be the most fun GM pissing contest around.

  • Mar 18, 20127:35 pm
    by tarsier


    The guards were terrible but it is inaccurate to say that Moose got no help outside of JJ. Prince put together a very good game.

    • Mar 18, 20127:42 pm
      by Stuckey and Whoever


      Yeah Prince had 20 pts 7 boards shot better than 50%, I would take that kind of help 9 times out of 10.

  • Mar 18, 20127:53 pm
    by Mel


    I just got back from the game, Boy it was electric. The Boys represented very well , I would have liked a win but it is what it is, ping pong ball right? Moose handled Blake pretty well , no lobs. But Chris Paul was on it the last quarter to finish and nobody could stop him. So I couldn’t get too mad. Seems Like Stuck hurt himself sometime in the 1st half and then in the second. I was pissed not to see him or Knight go off, but the Clippers contained the back court pretty well. That’s why Jonas, Monroe and Prince had a good game. Prince could not miss most of the game. All in All I had a great time and enjoyed watching my boys put up a fight on the road. Last year I saw the Pistons against the Lakers ( Monroe’s first year) and comparing this years team (Live) to last years team is like night and day.There was one stretch in the game Detroit’s defense was like 2004′s totally frustrated the crowd. I’m happy we got L Frank as a coach.
    I just wish they would have won D@m!#.

  • Mar 18, 20127:54 pm
    by Matt


    But why in the world did Frank isolate Prince for three consecutive possessions with the game on the line in regulation? Since when is Prince a closer? Sheesh.

    • Mar 18, 20127:57 pm
      by frankie d


      remember the play that jacob eich highlighted a few weeks back?  the end of the game play that tay totally botched?
      i’d have thought that the coach would have recognized that tay is not the guy you want to handle the ball in those circumstances.  
      i guess not.

    • Mar 18, 20128:00 pm
      by tarsier


      no way of knowing whether that was frank’s decision or prince’s

      • Mar 18, 20128:48 pm
        by RationalSportsFan


        Well, a couple of the times everyone cleared out for him, so that’s a decent sign that it was Coach Frank’s call.
        I also found the isos weird, mainly because Tay’s offensive strengths do not include isos from the top of the key.  He is much better off the ball as a spot-up mid-range shooter or on the block vs undersized defenders.

  • Mar 18, 20128:04 pm
    by frankie d


    looked like the called play was an isolation with tay.  
    didn’t look as though anything was out of the ordinary…everyone was in position, the play just didn’t work.
    usually, if a guy blows a play up and goes on his own, you can tell by the way the other players react or by the other guys scrambling around to deal with the confusion.
    none of that happened.  he just dribbled it and lost it on the turnover.
    least, that’s how it looked to me.

    • Mar 18, 20128:11 pm
      by tarsier


      I wouldn’t know. I had to “watch” on GameChannel.

  • Mar 18, 20128:20 pm
    by Max


    Didn’t Prince recently make a game winning shot?

  • Mar 18, 20128:35 pm
    by Mark


    The Macklin Watch Update: 13 pts, 16 rebs, 4 asts on 50% FG today.

    Avg 16 pts, 17 rebs, 4 asts, and 3 blks in his 2 games.

    I know its the d-league, but he’s also just a rookie 52nd pick, which makes it note-worthy, imo. And makes me even more interested to see him play with us when he comes back.

    We should be out of the playoff race by the time he comes back, and could get a few weeks worth of games out of him getting meaningful PT.

    When I watch him play, I cant help but think he would be a perfect fit next to Monroe. He’s got the size, strength, solid defender and shot-blocker, and a very nice post game on offense. Basically everything we’re looking for out of our upcoming draft pick. Not that Macklin is going to be that, but I want to at least see what he looks like next to Greg for some games.

    • Mar 18, 20129:11 pm
      by frankie d


      ben w. is playing well and we have to continue to play ben!
      ben w. is the future of the team!
      fans just don’t realize that he’s got a secret formula that is going to kick in next year…it’s going to allow him to roll back the clock and provide him with 5 years of prime time physical conditioning. that is why its so crucial to play him now. the team needs to get accustomed to playing with ben because he’s going to be around for a long time!
      the rejuvenated ben w. will make the need for a young big man like macklin entirely unnecessary!

    • Mar 19, 20121:39 am
      by rick77


      Man give it up ! Stop all this bullshit complaining! Macklin is garbage period. If he was that damn good he would have been a first round pick. Yall complain about how yall want a high pick and this and that. Just stfu sometime and just be supportive. So what Ben Wallace played. If anything he is showing others/younger players professionalism. Sometimes their is an underlying message that goes further than one game, but I dont know if any of the armchair coaches/gm’s in heer get that. These boys played a hell of a game and the foundation has been set. All they need to do is learn from it. Every young team has its ups and downs and this team will bounce back. The complaining is futile because it doesnt matter what we think. The coaches will play the best players available. Macklin is dominating the D League. Woopty damn doo! Im happy for him but when I see him play, at least the sporadic moments, he looks very unorthodox.I don’t think he is ready and people who opine for him must be really crazy if they think a professional basketball coach void of big man on his roster would deny his team a chance to get better by not playing the 52nd pick in the draft if he could actually play. Folks around here should consider things like learning the playbook before we assume that he is glued to the bench cause the coaches like B. Wallace more than him.

      • Mar 19, 20122:32 am
        by Lorenzo


        You are spot on sir. Couldn’t have said it better my self.

      • Mar 19, 20127:04 am
        by tarsier


        You need PT to be an example of professionalism? I would have thought it would come through even more clearly when you maintain a high level of professionalism in the face of seeing your minutes go to a young guy who has a long shot at being part of the future.

    • Mar 19, 201212:04 pm
      by vic


      he deserves a chance. Most people that dominate in the d-league end up being serviceable in the NBA (Jeremy Lin is only the most recent example).
      We sure could have used Amir Johnson the past couple years

      • Mar 19, 201212:28 pm
        by frankie d


        describing a player as “garbage” and trying to determine his eventual place in the league based on his draft position is just dumb.
        as dumb as it gets.
        if any nba fan doesn’t know how impossible it is to judge players based on where they were drafted, they haven’t been playing attention for the last 30 years.
        if anything, all detroit fans have to do is remember amir johnson, a guy whose profile is very similar to macklin’s.  and amir is now a solid nba rotation player.

        • Mar 19, 20122:25 pm
          by rick77


          Dumb is questioning a professional organization and how they run things without any insider knowledge. Dumb is calling someone else dumb because they do not agree with your opinion. You spew that mess out like its gospel. I would take you serious if it was not  so inflammatory. Excuse me for being brutally honest about Macklin but if the shoe fits or if walks like a duck, well you get what Im saying. Please dont get mad because I stated the obvious. You come in ranting about how he tearing up the D League and ranting about B Wallace playing and it makes no sense. Then you attack my statement as if you been providing rationale explanations. Give me a break! Now to compare Amir and this guy is hilarious because we took Amir out of high school and this dude out of college and Amir is probably younger than Macklin and if I am not mistaken he spent more years in college than the avg NBA player. The difference in the two is one went to college and the other one didnt. Johnson has been in league for over 5years and your are using him for comapriosn sake, which to me makes no sense because Johhson did not go to school. Macklin has had his apprenticeship in college and it got him picked 52nd. So you tell me who has the higher ceiling? I mean one is straight outta high school and has a chance to be good. Macklin on the other hand  has ben to college for four years and he is what he is. Get off your high horse and accept fact for what it is. Johnson just now recently in the past two years gotten better even though he still fouls alot but trying to compare Macklin career with Johnsons is hilarious simply put. Two different players and one looks the part and the other actually plays the part. Now you tell me where the similarities begin.

        • Mar 19, 20122:30 pm
          by Patrick Hayes


          “remember amir johnson, a guy whose profile is very similar to macklin’s.  and amir is now a solid nba rotation player.”

          LOL … you realize that Amir and Macklin are the same age RIGHT NOW, don’t you? Sorry, but comparing the upside of those two players is crazy.

          • Mar 19, 20122:38 pm
            by frankie d

            who compared “upside”?

          • Mar 19, 20122:55 pm
            by frankie d

            both macklin and johnson were late second round picks who spent time in the d league.
            that is the common aspect of their “profile”.
            according to your logic, rick, johnson is “garbage” and because he was drafted in the second round, “If he was that damn good he would have been a first round pick.”
            dumb. period. every year first rounders go bust and every year, second round picks do well.
            about as dumb as it gets to make categorical judgments based on draft position.
            and oh yea…he also…”unorthodox”!
            and we all know that an “unorthodox” player cannot make it.
            yep guys like ginobli, a late second round, unorthodox guy would never make it cause he’s garbage. we’ve all just been experiencing a mass hallucination.
            like i said….dumb.

          • Mar 19, 20126:54 pm
            by vic

            i wasn’t comparing upside, just similar production in the D-League – could mean similar abilities in the NBA when given opportunity.

  • Mar 18, 20129:23 pm
    by Josh


    Turiaf’s just been waived, so I guess he’s available. I heard he’s also big.

  • Mar 18, 201210:08 pm
    by Stuckey and Whoever


    From Frank “next step is learning how to finish out games from all standpoints: from a coaching standpoint and from a playing standpoint”
    I’m Glad he is including himself in that category.  Sort of up in the air for me weather Stuckey should of played the second half.  I understand there is a small chance of them making the playoffs still, and you want to see a player like Stuck fight through it.  (Injury)  But at the same token, if he already got a small injury a few days ago… I would be glued to Arnie if I was him.  Which I am sure he is for the most part but it did not turn into a good move to play him so hope it is nothing serious.

  • Mar 18, 201210:21 pm
    by Corey


    Fear the Moose! He was incredible in OT. Seeing him drive Blake Griffin right off the floor was a treat.

  • Mar 18, 201211:38 pm
    by Daye and Knight


    Just seeing it was hard for Stuckey to even put on jeans without us foot being in pain enough to worry a little, hopefully he gets better soon, especially for the Heat game since I’m supposed to go there.

    We lost today, and the Kings won so nw we’re #6 if the draft started today and the luck of the draft wasn’t on our side. Sacramento got Cousins before we could get him and that’s working out for us but let’s see if we draft someone they want and it works out or them lol

    Drummond is projected to go #6 to us now if he decides to join the draft but then again the draft is 3 months away ANYTHING could happen by then

  • Mar 19, 201212:51 am
    by domnick


    PHX and LAC beaten us because their PG’s are moving the ball better… i can’t imagine that we can win if they’ve got alot of Assists… double digit assists.. Nash and Paul… we need to limit these guys too..

    • Mar 19, 20121:16 am
      by Mark


      yeah, Nash/Paul two of the best to ever play PG, lock HOF’ers. Tough for a rookie to deal with. Good news is we dont have to play a HOF PG every night, and next game Lawson should be a closer matchup for Knight.

      • Mar 19, 20122:30 am
        by Lorenzo


        Woah! Paul a HOF lock already….lets not get ahead of ourselves. He’s young and has plenty of time to do so but he needs to win some hardware first. Regardless, I agree that the opposing pg’s moved the ball very well the last couple of games, team D is still the achilles heal of this squad.

        • Mar 19, 20127:14 am
          by tarsier


          Untrue. If he were to retire today, he may not be all-time top 50, but he would already be a HOF lock. He has been the best PG in the league (and top 5 overall) for about 4 years. Not many guys can put that on their resumes.

          And he has hardware, just not championships. All-NBA, all-defense, ROY, all-star berths, olympic gold, etc. There is no basis for saying a guy needs NBA championships to get into the hall?

          • Mar 19, 20129:49 am
            by Steve K

            Whether or not he’s a sure-fire HOFer is sorta beside the point. Chris Paul is a perennial All-star and one of the best PGs in the league.

            The Pistons will not be facing players of that caliber each night is the main point.

          • Mar 19, 201212:56 pm
            by rick77

            Man how old are you? That is ridiculous. Almost borderliner assanine. He’s good but he is not HOF material yet. A lot of people get caught up in the moment and believe that ESPN hype machine. When he carries a team over the top then maybe just maybe. To annoint him after dazzling play in NO surely does not quantify HOF mention,but then again Scottie Pippen did make it. Speaking of Pippen he did win championships, something that elevated him to his status next to Jordan. Why cant Tony Parker be HOF? Is he not too sexy for you? All substance and no flash. Cmon man! If we sue your formula then I can say that Tayshaun Prince went to Olympics, has a few defensive second teams on his resume, six staight Eastern Conference finals appearances and a ring. So does he get into the HOF? He won a title,right,no. I bet iff the shoe was on the other foot then Paul would definitely get the nod. I dont subscribe to hype man and you should do the same. It makes me almost not take you seriously. I will admit Paul is good but he aint the next coming of I dare say it. Naw I wont even broach it, but I bet people know who I was about to say considering their was a debate not long ago on this board comparing the two back as to who was better between Paul and said player. Just know he wore a Pistons jersey.

          • Mar 19, 20121:22 pm
            by Max

            He’s way better than Nash though and most of the point guards who are in.  He is near the top the elo rater and hof likelihood meter on basketballreference.com for point guards, has arguably the best per game numbers and is already finishing high on many a conservative writer’s all time list.   If you had to be a better point guard than Isiah to get in the hall of fame than there would only be a handful of candidates at most and not dozens of actual members.  Isiah is far from the cut but rather an upper echelon no brainer.  Tarsier is right,  If you are the best player at your position for half a decade, you will probably get in on that alone and Tony Parker will easily make the hall.   You seem like a lot of people who want to set the bar arbitrarily according to your own standards when you should be looking at who actually does and doesn’t get elected.   Don’t even think of Isiah but ask yourself whether Paul is better than guards like Dennis Johnson, Lenny Wilkins, Gail Goodrich, Pete Maravich, Earl Monroe, Dave Bing, David Thompson and, much as I love him, Joe Dumars because Paul is better than these players and they are all in.   Personally, I think he is clearly the best PG drafted since Isiah and the only players who would give me any pause are Gary Payton and Jason Kidd and I’m including John Stockton amongst players who wouldn’t make me pause.

          • Mar 19, 20121:47 pm
            by Patrick Hayes


            You are right, Parker is a HOF lock. His NBA success alone may or may not do it, but as one of the best international players of all-time, the international committee will definitely put him in.

          • Mar 19, 20124:04 pm
            by Max

            Yup, the international committee was what I was thinking when i said Parker would get in “easily” and it applies to Ginobili too.

          • Mar 19, 20125:02 pm
            by tarsier

            I would have no problem with saying Paul has already had a better career than Reggie Miller, who I also consider a sure fire HOFer. Obviously, if he retired right now, he would not be an all-time great. but I said that in my previous comment too.

          • Mar 19, 20125:08 pm
            by tarsier

            just how hard do you think it is to get into the hall of fame? i mean, it is certainly a minority of players who manage it. but virtually every player who was a superstar for several years makes it in.

          • Mar 19, 201210:19 pm
            by Lorenzo

            @tarsier…..lol, @ the “untrue”…. easy there buddy this isn’t a true or false examination where things work in such absolutes. I grant you that Paul is one of the top players in the game at the moment and is building up an excellent resume; none the less the issue is very much up for discussion. There are a number of current and former players who have accrued comparable numbers and accolades whose HOF credentials must very likely still be discussed….Hill, McGrady, Penny, Richmond, Hardaway, Yao, Billups…etc. etc. Do any or all deserve to be in there? It’s as interesting a discussion as any. Bottom line, let Paul play out his career before you call him a lock, barring him winning multiple titles or an MVP (both very possible) in the next few years, it’s still a discussion.

          • Mar 19, 201210:35 pm
            by Patrick Hayes


            Just because I love a good HOF debate.

            Paul – in, no question. Best PG in the league for going on 5-6 seasons now, carried a really poor Hornets team (I believe the second and third best guards on that team were Jannero Pargo and Mo Peterson) to the second round and a near-upset of the Spurs, plus all the accolades others have mentioned. Plus, no signs of his game slowing down in the next couple seasons. He’s in.

            Hill – In. Injuries have made his pro career fall short of what it could have been, but he was one of the best non-MJ players of the 90s and don’t forget, college career counts to, so what he did at Duke plus his late years Renaissance will get him in pretty easily I think.

            Yao – In. Again, injuries cost him what would’ve been an iconic career, but as an international player, there is no question that the most successful NBA player ever to come from Asia gets in.

            Penny – Out. One of the most tragic career arcs ever, but Penny just didn’t have a long enough peak.

            Tim Hardaway – Out. Good player, but a notch below the elite PGs of his era — Payton, Stockton, Kidd. Had he not had the knee injuries, he could’ve been better than those guys, but I don’t think his peak was good enough.

            Billups – In, but I’m biased here.

            Richmond – Out, although I think Mitch is a good candidate for the veterans committee to get in someday simply because he spent so much of his career on unimaginably dreadful Sacramento teams.

            McGrady – In. Toughest call because his peak was so short, but at his peak, he was arguably the best in the game.

            Incidentally, Paul is better than any guy on that list.

      • Mar 19, 20128:17 am
        by domnick


        Lawson is another good PG… undersized but very good

  • Mar 19, 201211:38 am
    by RationalSportsFan


    “I entirely agree with Patrick that Isolayshaun isn’t particularly fun to watch. But quite often, including tonight, it’s effective. Prince scored 20 points on 20 plays.”
    That stat isn’t that meaningful without knowing how many of those plays came out of isolation.  It is possible that he was efficient spotting up or posting up, but not in isos.

    • Mar 19, 201212:01 pm
      by RationalSportsFan


      Got some stats.  On the year, Tay is averaging .8 PPP on Iso plays (or 80 points per 100 possessions).  Pistons are averaging 97.3 points per 100 possessions as a whole.  So, it seems clear that Tay Isos are detrimental to our offensive performance.

  • Mar 19, 201211:47 am
    by frankie d


    i’m still waiting for someone to provide some kind of rationale for frank going with 3 guards in the last half of the 4th quarter?
    under the circumstances…very poor guard play…JJ haveing an excellent game…
    it obviously blew up in his face…the team scored one basket after that point and gave up a couple of offensive rebounds that really hurt.  the tying basket with about 19 seconds left came on an offensive rebound where detroit couldn’t keep LA off the boards.
    what on earth was frank thinking?
    can anyone provide a reasonable explanation?

  • Mar 19, 201211:57 am
    by shawn brown


    on an unrelated topic …would the pistons take a flyer on greg oden for a year. they are about a year away from contending for a playoff spot and the frontcourt is an issue. joe dumars signed chauncey and nobody at the time thought it would be a good move (at least thats how i remember it).   i know that injuries have been an issue with oden but i dont think this is a guy without talent. what do you guys think?

  • Mar 19, 201212:20 pm
    by frankie d


    detroit fans should give up the oden dream.
    he has had 5 knee surgeries and 3 microfracture surgeries.
    he is probably one and a half to two years away from playing.  could he come back?
    i guess, but investing two years in him, considering is just not worth it.
    if they could sign him and not use a roster spot while he rehabbed, sure, do it.  why not.
    but if they have to use a roster spot for him it is not worth the gamble.
    no comparison to chauncey or even mcdyess.  
    chauncey was healthy, and mcdyess had come back and played, even though he was not the player he’d been pre- knee injury.
    actually saw oden last night at the local craft brewpub, the laurelwood public house.   he is a huge, huge guy.  he’s still hanging out in portland. looked pretty down. at least he has good taste in beer.

    • Mar 19, 20122:49 pm
      by sebastian


      frankied, I’m with you in regards to Oden. The guy should just return to college and work towards his alternate goal of becoming a dentist.

  • Mar 19, 20121:30 pm
    by Max


  • Mar 19, 20122:40 pm
    by rick77


    Max what you failed to recognize was the gentlemen said that Paul had been dominating for like four years. You provided more rationale insight as to why he would be put into the Hall besides just throwing out his past four years. The one thing you would want to do is try and not lump people together by saying “like a lot of people” because my opinion is my opinion and it has absolutely nothing to do what others think. My whole argument is why does everyone have to complain about dumb shit?  Really are we about to sit and argue about whether Macklin should be playing or not and why is B.Wallace playing when in fact its painfully obvious why.When the Pistons start winning what will the complaint be next? At the end of the day we do not know what goes on behind those doors in Auburn Hills as all we can do is specualte.Period. So until then I will continue to follow Dan and Patrick as they provide a non biased opinion w/o denigrating people.

    • Mar 19, 20123:54 pm
      by Max


      I’m sorry you took offense but I did feel like what you said about Paul fit into the larger context of opinions people have offered about who gets into the HOF.  That’s all I meant by “a lot of people”.
      I really was just addressing your saying that Paul wasn’t going to make the HOF .  While Tarsier did say four years regarding Paul’s dominance, the truth is that Paul has been at that level longer so I just evened things out by saying half a decade even though Paul has been right about at the top since nearly the day he stepped on the court.  His rookie of the year season aside, this will be the 6th year in a row that Paul has put up top five per game numbers in the whole league.
      His PER is 8th all time and he stands as the #1 PG:
      Isiah is 121st btw which makes me distrust PER more than ever.  Still……..look at the names at the top of the list and Paul looks like a HOF,
      I totally agree with you about people complaining about dumb shit.  Everyone wants to play coach and GM and arrogantly assume they know better for all of their protests of being humble.  Dumars and Drank, who actually have the jobs have very difficult decisions to make and occupy positions where no one’s bats 1000 in the best of circumstances.   Personally. I’m encouraged about the team’s growing chemistry and growth and young core.  All of this second guessing about yesterday annoys me the more when you consider they hung with one of the best teams in the west in a game that achieved playoff physicality.  When you add the fact that this occurred during a night when Stuckey, who had been absolutely killing it, came up hurt and lame, it is double annoying.

      • Mar 19, 20125:12 pm
        by tarsier


        My 4 years number was just an estimation I threw out there, partially accounting for the fact that he has not given a full year’s work every season (injuries). Obviously, half a season of putting up HOF numbers should count for less than a full season doing it.

  • Mar 19, 20123:28 pm
    by rick77


    Dumb Frankie is acting liek Ginobli did not have International experience. You can argue until the cows jump over the moon but I agree with the team and coach on where he should be playing. Unfortunately for you and his posse of fans that is the D League, sir. It amazes me that you just described Ginobli in describing Macklin. Unbelieveable! I think Patrick stated it best when he said these two guys are teh same age. Comparing the two is dumb. If they are the same age then Macklin by your estimates should be starting. Yeah right and I guess every other GM in the league is dumb as bag of rocks for passing up on someone with limited upside. I want to see the team gel and run plays so that when they get into situations like they have been for the past week they will have gained the knowledge through trial and error. Throwing Macklin in there for the sake of a few is not the goal I would imagine or else it would have happened by now. he is at best a serviceable situational player who will be given minutes once he has caught up to what everyone else is doing. Something Amir had to learn at 18 not 25! Boom!

  • Mar 19, 20123:46 pm
    by israelipiston


    Really unfair to pigeon hole Macklin
    GM’s make mistakes all the time
    Hell – Ben Wallace was not even drafted
    We need to give Macklin a chance and not just assume he will suck because he was drafter in second round
    All of the below  were drafted in second round – means all GMs were wrong!!!
    Best Second Round Draft Picks
    Michael Redd
    Gilbert Arenas
    Mehmet Okur
    Carlos Boozer
    Luis Scola
    Mo Williams
    Trevor Ariza
    Monta Ellis
    Marcin Gortat
    Paul Millsap
    Marc Gasol
    Dejuan Blair
    Amir Johnson

    • Mar 19, 20124:10 pm
      by Max


      And the great Dennis Rodman who arrived in the NBA at 25 too and who gradually became a much better basketball player.

      • Mar 19, 20124:41 pm
        by oats


        The real difference between all of those guys and Macklin, they all played really well at their last stop before going to the NBA. Macklin was a decidedly average college player. Don’t get me wrong, Macklin absolutely should be playing. This team has nothing to lose. If I had to guess, I’d bet against Macklin being a rotation caliber big on a good team, even if I do think it’s worth throwing him out there to give him a chance to prove me wrong. Still, I feel like it’s silly to complain about Wallace playing over him (like frankie was doing, and what set Rick off to begin with). JJ can slide over to the 3 and allow Macklin to get the minutes currently allocated to Wilkins. How does that not make sense? Wilkins is old, on a 1 year deal, and he is the worst player in the rotation (even if he is better than I thought he was, and I do appreciate what he has brought to the team).

        • Mar 19, 20125:17 pm
          by frankie d


          i love ben wallace’s game.  i always have. 
          and i appreciate what he brings to the team now.  he’s still, as old as he is, the team’s best interior defender and there are absolutely times when his presence makes a big difference.  he’s not the same ben as he was in his prime, but even a debilitated wallace is still a quality player.  
          but on a team like the pistons, a rebuilding team, what sense does it make to play guys like wallace and wilkins while you keep a young guy on the bench without finding out whether he can play?
          can macklin play in the nba?
          i have no idea.  he has some interesting skills and size, but i don’t think anyone knows until he gets out on the court and either fails or succeeds.
          figure out where he is supposed to play – the one or two or three spot.  it doesn’t matter.
          but the idea of playing ben wallace 21 minutes, while a rookie cant get on the court and has to go to the d league to get PT just doesn’t make any sense.  is the team rebuilding or not?
          in the last 20 games of the season, the team needs to find out whether it has a big man who can be a part of the rotation.
          we all know what ben can do.  we have no idea what macklin can do.  i’d like to find out.

          • Mar 19, 20125:34 pm
            by oats

            You do realize I said I wanted Macklin to play, right? I just don’t see the point in railing against Wallace playing when Wilkins is a clearly inferior player and it would be more productive to pull him from the lineup than pulling Wallace. Frank has two jobs, win games and develop young players into a stronger core going forward. Pulling Wallace achieves only of those goals, pulling Wilkins has a chance to achieve both. I actually want the team to take losses to help draft position, but that isn’t something I think you can ask a coach to do. So, again, play Macklin and sit Wilkins.

          • Mar 19, 20126:44 pm
            by frankie d

            take wilkins out of the line up?
            are you serious?  no can do!!!
            he has to stay.
            no way, no how would i ever think that taking wilkins out of the lineup would be a good thing.
            i object …damien wilkins is the heart and soul of the team and if he’s ever removed, the team won’t function.!!
            wilkins shall not be removed!!!

    • Mar 19, 201210:16 pm
      by Patrick Hayes



      Listing the guys over the last decade or so who have made it as second round picks doesn’t mean that Macklin necessarily should be playing and getting minutes at the NBA level right now. Sure, maybe he turns into a player. But even though a handful of players have emerged from the second round and been good players over the years, the odds of that happening are really long — the list of guys who never sniffed minutes or even made a roster is much longer. Again, that’s not to say Macklin won’t make it, but I can’t think of any team that just gifts second rounders, especially guys like Macklin who has limited upside anyway because he’s already 25, minutes. Even on most bad teams, second rounders don’t play off the bat unless they kick the door in by out-playing everyone (like Isaiah Thomas with the Kings this year) when they get their few opportunities or they get to play because of injuries/roster defections (like what happened in Cleveland last year when Lebron/Ilgauskas/West left and three other regulars missed significant time with injuries).

  • Mar 19, 20123:46 pm
    by frankie d


    lol! keep commenting…the more you write, the dumber you get.

  • Mar 19, 20123:49 pm
    by israelipiston


    I forgot my boom!!

    • Mar 19, 20124:12 pm
      by Max


      Anyone know a good boom operator?

  • Mar 19, 20124:40 pm
    by Coach_Ackley


    J.J. Hickson was just boughtout buy the Kings so now he’s on the open market I think the Pistons should look into him…….

    • Mar 19, 20124:43 pm
      by Max


      Yes!  Sign him up!  He’ll probably join a contender though…………shrug.

    • Mar 19, 20129:14 pm
      by tarsier


      To me, this is more evidence of why Joe D did a poor job at the deadline. Flipping Daye for Hickson would have made sense for both parties. And if Sactown was willing to waive JJ, they probably would have gone for it. Who cares if he didn’t have any good offers? He could have made some good ones–like Daye for Hickson. Now granted, this does open up the outside chance for an even better possibility of getting Hickson while keeping Daye. But Dumars could not have known that.

      This, plus the not trading Prince last year (yeah I know that was before the Gores era, but it is still indicative of Dumars’ competency), plus the deal he gave Prince, plus signing Wilkins instead of taking a flyer on a total unknown in another young guy is why I really want Dumars fired. I just don’t trust him as a GM.

      • Mar 19, 20129:36 pm
        by Lorenzo


        On the issue of flipping Daye for JJ, I think its quite presumptuous to assume that Sac Town would have accepted the move let alone would have been interested in Daye. On contrary I would think they would be rather opposed to the move, why trade one rubbish player on your roster (Hickson) for another rubbish player (Daye) that you very likely do not think highly of? It’s essentially swapping dead salary, makes more sense to buy the guy out like the Kings did. It also gives you an indication of what the market is/was for guys like Daye and Hickson….clearly in the sh!ter.

      • Mar 19, 20129:54 pm
        by frankie d


        which player would you rather have: damien wilkins ore jj hickson?
        hickson has certainly had a bad year so far, but he’s shown enough at times to merit some kind of attention.
        last year, he averaged almost 14 points and 9 rebounds, with a 15.6 PER.  in the right system, he can obviously offer something.  i have no idea what happened with him, but i’d give him a shot.
        he’s exactly the kind of player the pistons should be trying to add to their roster, rather than keeping old guys like wilkins on board.

        • Mar 19, 201210:11 pm
          by Patrick Hayes


          “which player would you rather have: damien wilkins ore jj hickson?”

          First, why would they have to choose? They have a roster spot open.

          And secondly, it’s not like they can just “choose” to have Hickson. As a big who (kind of) has a pulse and who will be cheap, he’ll have a list of teams who want him.

          • Mar 19, 201210:43 pm
            by frankie d

            didn’t realize if they’d kept that spot open.  
            and while he’ll have his choice of suitors, the pistons can make a good argument to him.
            there is a huge hole in the team at the very position he plays.
            in fact, his skills line up well with monroe’s.  while he has a decent shot, i recall him back in his college days and he was very, very active around the basket.   apparently one of the things that has happened is that he’s fallen in love with his jumper.  playing with a good passing big man like monroe would allow him to move in closer and not focus as much on his jumper.  
            he’s coming up on a contract year, and it would definitely be in his best interests to go someplace where he’ll get minutes and play within a system that works for him.
            he’s been playing the center spot, apparently, and he’s a natural power forward.  he’d be able to play his natural position with the pistons.  while he is not the exact fit for the team, he still works well, imho.
            sacramento is a bad system for a guy like hickson.  he’s not as skilled as either thompson or cousins, and the sacramento guards are not pass-first types.  in fact, they really don’t have a “true” point guard at all.  they really have a bunch of combo guards – probably even more shot-happy than detroit’s – and a player like hickson, who cant create his shot and is dependent on guards getting him the ball, may get into very bad habits.   which is apparently what happened.
            (read a stat somewhere that last year cousins had one of the league’s lowest percentages of baskets that resulted from a teammate’s pass.)
            it was obviously a very, very bad fit for hickson, and detroit’s team is probably a much better environment for a guy like hickson.  
            essentially, he can play like a bigger, quicker jason maxiell with more offensive skills. he’d be an upgrade over maxiell.
            i hope joe goes after him aggressively.  hickson has shown that he can offer a team certain things – good offensive production, aggression offensively, rebounding – and its worth a shot to see if he can fit in better with a different group of players.
            frankly, i’m surprised that sactown traded for him, considering the team they already had.  just looking at their guards from last year – thornton, evans – it doesn’t appear to be a team well-suited to a player like hickson.
            but, maybe their loss can be detroit’s gain.

          • Mar 19, 201210:48 pm
            by rick77

            See those are the type of arguments that I am talking about when I get upset because they never divulge what the reasoning is but go off on a tangent. Again I respect everyones opinion but that does not mean I have to agree. You on the other hand take the time to explain your point and give reasons how you came to your conclusion. You can even say thats dumb but to call someone dumb because they dont agree with you is childish.

            Moving on I hear on BSKBALL.com that Hickson is looking at the Warriors. I dont understand why the Warriors would do this. i mean they signed Kwame to a big deal and they have Bierdrins plus Bogut, who is hurt. I dont know why his agent wouldnt steer him our way. Its not inconceiveable to think that he could here start because I think he could. I mean they had Udoh and traded him for an injured player. Oh well I guess we can never get lucky. Im sure Joe D cast his lot, but sometimes guys play where they think they can get a better chance when it comes to these buyouts.

          • Mar 19, 201211:07 pm
            by frankie d

            here is the link  to the stat about percentage of shots assisted.  
            it was ridiculous.  only 32% of his at-rim shots were assisted, while the next closest player was at 48%.  cousins had, by far, the lowest percentage of any player in the league.
            what that obviously means is that the guards are not passing the ball to the big guys.  and you put a guy like hickson in that mix, with his limited ball skills, and its going to be tough for him to get his offense other than by freelancing and probably going one-on-one, which really isn’t his game.
            they’ve got the same guards this year, and they’ve added a couple more shoot-first combo guards, jimmer and isaiah thomas, which obviously doesn’t help his game.
            this just might be the classic case of a player landing in a horrible spot for his skills.

      • Mar 19, 201210:09 pm
        by Patrick Hayes



        “Flipping Daye for Hickson would have made sense for both parties.”

        Not necessarily … what if the Kings don’t like Daye? Plus, he’s already signed for next year, Hickson wasn’t, so they’d be committing salary to a player they maybe didn’t love. Kings are pretty loaded with players on the wings (Jimmer, Thornton, Garcia, Donte Green, Tyler Honeycutt, Outlaw). Plus, with Isaiah Thomas playing more, that has moved Evans into that wing rotation more and more too. Not sure they’d have any interest in Daye.

        “This, plus the not trading Prince last year”

        Him re-signing Prince certainly makes this less likely, but as you point out, the sale of the team was not finished at the trade deadline last year. So trading Prince, an expiring salary, for a first round pick, even a late one, still represented a future guaranteed salary. It might be unlikely, but given the “don’t add future money” thing, that could’ve played a role in that trade.

        “plus signing Wilkins instead of taking a flyer on a total unknown”

        Well, Wilkins was kind of a last minute replacement for the total unknown in Singler who that roster spot was intended for.

        I understand your point, but I don’t think they originally intended Wilkins to be anything more than a training camp body. But Singler didn’t come and Wilkins ended up having a good camp, so they kept him.

        • Mar 20, 20129:22 am
          by tarsier


          Butler didn’t have any more future salary commitment than Prince. But you’re right on the Wilkins circumstances. I forgot about that.

          While the Kings may not have been interested in Daye, I am guessing somebody would have given up a second rounder for him. And one has to think the Kings would be interested in a second rounder for Hickson. Heck, I would have been happy just to see Dumars give up their late second rounder for JJ even if Daye was completely uninvolved. I understand the rationale for keeping Dumars, I just have yet to see that he even has the right vision for the team (regardless of whether he has the competency to pull it off, which I am actually guessing he does). But Langlois says he makes statements like “we won’t mortgage the future for the present but that doesn’t mean we will sacrifice the present for the future either.” I believe in completely committing to either the future or the present, not half-assing it like Joe appears to.

          • Mar 20, 20129:47 am
            by Patrick Hayes

            Butler didn’t have salary commitments, but the pick did. Even if it was minimal, a first round pick is still guaranteed future salary. Prince at the time had no future salary beyond last season.

            None of that is meant as a Dumars defense, either. I have no impassioned plea to either keep or get rid of him.

          • Mar 20, 201211:12 am
            by tarsier

            You’re right again. i forgot about that. Granted, if the salary of a pick was not wanted, it would have been easy to flip for cash or a future pick or something. But yeah, I hadn’t though of that.

  • Mar 19, 20126:23 pm
    by AtotheK


    i hope we go after turiaf or hickson. we obviously wanted to add a big man at the deadline. macklin’s numbers in d league are impressive, but i’d rather see one of these veteren bigs next to monroe for the rest of the season. most likely wouldn’t be enough of a spark for a play-off push, but i’d like to see em stay competitive and draft henson.

  • Mar 19, 201210:08 pm
    by rick77


    You just dont get do it do you Frankie? Its not a matter of me disagreeing with you for arguments sake. Its just that I respectfully disagree with your assertion that Macklin should be playing over Wallace. Never once did I call you dumb because you had your opinion and its painfully obvious who the dumb one is. Everyone who disagrees with you is dumb? Cmon what world do you live in? Again my opinion is my opinion and if you could do Franks job better then go out apply. I just dont believe Macklin will be good but maybe average. His upside is like that of Brandon Weeden of Okla St in football. Whose gonna draft a 28year old quarterback in the first round?maybe he can turn into something serviceable, but to call people out on intelligence shows that you must be lacking in said department or else you would just respectfully disagree and explain why. You know, kinda like how Patrick or Dan does. You just want to see if he can play so you can Dumars is dumb or some off the wall comment pretending to be a real fan. Good or bad I love my Pistons and I am sure Dumars will get them back to contending. People still have not said who would replace so complaining about the current state of affairs does nothing good.      

  • Mar 19, 201210:51 pm
    by rick77


    Now you have said something I can agree with Frankie and my comment was about earlier comments made. Not your recent comment with Patrick as I happen to agree with your point.

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