Comments on: A behind the scenes look at Vernon Macklin with the Fort Wayne Mad Ants

By: frankie d

frankie d — Wed, 21 Mar 2012 16:23:37 +0000

“…You finally told his ass Patrick. I actually have had disagreements with the both of you, but you on the other hand respectfully disagree and this guy always tries to make the point you;re referencing or anyone else seem like theyre stupid. ….”

i cannot, for the life of me, imagine why anyone would ever say that the person who writes stuff like the above-noted quote would be stupid or dumb.
can anyone imagine that? the nerve…
how could anyone ever begin to think that the brilliant mind that produced that clear, concise, razor-sharp thought could be dumb?
pity the fool who would ever dare to think such a thought!

By: frankie d

frankie d — Wed, 21 Mar 2012 01:41:36 +0000

@max
“Sometimes, it seems like you want to frame the issues to make yourself look right and I can see why Patrick feels irritated by you. You pick apart individual phrases and sentences and fail to acknowledge the spirit. ”
guilty as charged. for the most part.
i don’t necessarily frame issues to make me look right, but i do frame them, and pick apart specific words and phrases , in a way consistent with the particular point i am making.
it’s a habit. it’s what happens when you go to law school and write briefs for years and years. specific words matter, and if someone says something specific, then i will typically hold them to those specific, exact words.
now, that may be a bit strict and somewhat unfair on a blog devoted to basketball where most people are not as concerned with being quite as exact, but it is a habit. and, i’ve noticed that others can get quite picky with some of the things i’ll post. i may, however, take it to another level, i will acknowledge.
but figuring out the “spirit” of what someone is saying may be just as tough sometimes, though doing so may be more in line with the general ethos of a blog of this sort.
i most often make general comments that are not directed towards anyone, specifically. occasionally, i will direct a comment, but i will specifically do so, and it is obvious that i’ve done so. and, generally, i try to say anything that might be considered derogatory in a very general way, so that it is not directed to anyone in particular. oh occasionally, i may say that some commenter has said something dumb, but that is most definitely the exception, rather than the rule. yes, i will say lots of snide, cutting things, but rarely will those comments be directed towards anyone in particular.
that is especially the case with patrick and daniel.
i try as hard as i can to be a good guest and not insult the host. (i certainly don’t think that other writers or even commenters deserve the same consideration.) but if someone does decide to confront me, then i will certainly respond in kind. again, another habit. if someone initiates a confrontation, i will almost always come back with twice as much force.
i think i do question the validity of statements, especially when they are made with little or no evidence or when someone makes categorical statements that should be qualified. everyone does that, imho, and i expect it when it happens to me. but i always do is note that i am expressing my opinion, which is as subject to attack as anyone’s.

By: swish22

swish22 — Wed, 21 Mar 2012 01:26:43 +0000

Nice update on Macklin Patrick. Nice work as always!! This is my first source for Pistons hoop!
Maybe a game of horse could settle this war going on!! I’d be glad to meet either one of you in the finals! (lol)

By: rick77

rick77 — Wed, 21 Mar 2012 01:09:01 +0000

You finally told his ass Patrick. I actually have had disagreements with the both of you, but you on the other hand respectfully disagree and this guy always tries to make the point you;re referencing or anyone else seem like theyre stupid. Everyone will have different opinions and the fact remains that we will all have different viewpoints, but that does not make any of us stupid or dumb because we do not agree with what the other person said.I say we all have have a lot of passion and want to see the same thing. If you dont agree, just give your reason why and move on. It does not have to be a pissing contest.

By: Max

Max — Wed, 21 Mar 2012 00:12:49 +0000

I think Macklin can play.

By: Patrick Hayes

Patrick Hayes — Wed, 21 Mar 2012 00:08:30 +0000

Before this went way off the tracks, here are the simple points I was making:
- It’s not outrageous for rookie second round picks to not play much, if at all. In fact, most don’t play much as rookies, even the guys who end up being very good. Sure, there are situations where guys do get minutes as rookies, whether that is a result of injuries, depleted roster, underperforming veterans, etc. But those situations are far less common than second round picks sitting on the bench a lot as rookies. You can even make a case that sitting isn’t necessarily detrimental to a lot of those guys — Gilbert Arenas very famously turned himself into an All-Star and developed a solid work ethic directly because he sat as a rookie.
- There is not enough evidence on Macklin to conclude whether he is a useful player or not, and that’s OK. He’s done enough to warrant coming back next year by seemingly having a good attitude and working hard (and also not bristling at being sent to the D-League like Terrico White reportedly did). Yes, the Pistons could really use him developing into a rotation big. But they also needed Jason Maxiell to bounce back, they also needed to get Jerebko minutes and, yes, they need to play Ben Wallace even if this is his last season since he’s their only big with a competent understanding of how to play defense. His minutes, how he does his job, those things bring value to young players like Macklin, Jerebko and Monroe in particular. Investment in second round picks is minimal compared to the investment the Pistons have in players like Monroe, Jerebko, Maxiell and even Villanueva. Yes, the Pistons would benefit from Macklin turning into a rotation big, but they would benefit immensely from Monroe continuing to turn into a franchise guy, Jerebko turning into a starting player at either F spot and Maxiell and Villanueva rebuilding any kind of minimal value to either contribute to this team or make them tradeable for something that isn’t a negative asset. Using the allotted minutes on those things this season seems more valuable to me than seeing if Macklin has any upside. They can figure Macklin out by using practice, D-League, summer league, camp and preaseason next year.
- I think the Amir Johnson comparison that popped up in another thread and has been mentioned once or twice here is an illogical one. Macklin is older. It took Amir five seasons or so to develop into a functional rotation piece who could stay on the court 20 minutes without fouling out. If Macklin now is where Amir was as a Piston development-wise, I think the chances are less likely that he can develop given that he’s already 25. Now, if he’s better now than Amir was then (and there isn’t enough evidence that he is or isn’t), that’s a different story. Maybe he can help now, maybe he can help next season. At any rate, I don’t think him sitting for now as long as the players in front of him are playing reasonably well (and they have been, even if none of them other than Monroe are starting caliber).
- And in regards to arguing back and forth with frankie d, I should definitely show more restraint, but it’s probably not happening. I write as a hobby mostly, but I still put an intense amount of work into it, so I have a hard time sitting idly by when people lob criticisms that I feel are unfair in the comments. I have plenty of amicable interactions with people who disagree with me. With you and one or two others though, I have a harder time being civil. I feel like your comments often don’t just disagree with points, they insult the credibility of others (occasionally me, occasionally other writers, occasionally other commenters). I think it’s extremely weak on your part and it’s not something I can easily just let go when it happens.
I fail to see how any of those points are illogical.

By: Max

Max — Wed, 21 Mar 2012 00:07:19 +0000

Wow.
@Frankie D Sometimes, it seems like you want to frame the issues to make yourself look right and I can see why Patrick feels irritated by you. You pick apart individual phrases and sentences and fail to acknowledge the spirit. It’s almost like a semantic argument where you are trying to prove someone is not all knowing when they never said they were. The exceptions are not the rule and whether Macklin will make it or not; he is not the exception in terms of hitting the ground running–he is not Paul Millsap or Ginobili. Within the debate itself, Patrick freely admitted he didn’t know if Macklin would make it and hoped he would. Further, he did write the article for this thread and finished it off by saying it would help the Free Macklin movement.
@Patrick Sometimes, although they are your own articles, you have a tendency to take things people say as directed towards you when they may be addressing others on the board or just the board in general. I don’t know if this dynamic played into this argument but Frankie brought up something I’ve felt before when I felt misunderstood.

By: Max

Max — Tue, 20 Mar 2012 23:32:14 +0000

Maybe Joe was hoping Frank would play him and finally decided it wasn’t going to happen. I don’t think he would tell him to play him.

By: frankie d

frankie d — Tue, 20 Mar 2012 21:37:05 +0000

lol!
typical. weak stuff.
when you can’t defend what you write you lash out and do exactly what i’d indicated you’d do previously. you try to stop athe dialogue.
what did jack nicholson say in a few good men?
you can’t handle the truth!
frankly, i don’t come here to interact with you as much as share thoughts with others.
but you will respond to things i may write in a very detailed fashion and when i respond in kind, you object.
it is telling that you will spend all of your time reading and responding to what i write and then blame me for the fact that it engages you for whatever reason. as i said, you can always deny me access if that is what you want to do. it is certainly your preragative.
i will miss chatting with the likes of max and others.
asi’ve noted previously, if i don’t like what someone writes, i skip past them.
and i have not bitched about the general intellect of folks who post here. sometimes commenters say dumb things and i will call them out on it, but for the most part, i maintain positive relations with most folks who want to interact with me.
frankly, i wouldn’t care if you never responded to anything i ever wrote. no one puts a gun to your head to do so. for whatever reason, you feel compelled to do so.
your problem is that you can’t handle someone who calls you on the BS that you try to peddle.
now, you don’t try to peddle it all the time, but when you do, and when someone calls you out on it, you react in this fashion.
again, your prerogative, but everyone sees what you are doing, and it doesn’t speak well for you.

By: Sebastian

Sebastian — Tue, 20 Mar 2012 21:29:03 +0000

Isaiah Thomas, 60th Pick 2011 Draft. Currently getting starters’ minutes at PG position, while averaging 10 ppg, 3.3 apg, 2.3 rpg for the Sacramento Kings.