Comments on: 3-on-3: Trading Tayshaun Prince

By: frankie d

frankie d — Sat, 10 Mar 2012 18:40:06 +0000

and the pistons are the only team that made moves that resulted in a “rebuild” being necessary.
the other teams all fell prey to something – catastrophic injury, retirement, age – that caused the collapse of their title teams.
detroit is the only team where you can point to specific actions by management, that were within their control, that caused the destruction of their title/playoff teams.
detroit fans really have gone through something unprecedented.

By: apa8ren9

apa8ren9 — Sat, 10 Mar 2012 16:34:30 +0000

Great stuff guys, as for Prince it comes down to disagreeing on the value of leadership, 2 million dollars per year and a fourth year on contract for a 31 yr old competent avg to slightly above average SF in the NBA. I think that about sums that up all of the arguments (myself included) about Prince seem to be in this bubble. Its the type of stuff to get you through a terrible season. I believe Prince will be here for the duration or at least as long as Joe is there and will play a critical role in helping us become competitive again over the next 2 years. The only way Prince will be gone is if we are in on a sweetheart deal. Like the Gasol one for the Lakers, that is the only way I see Prince leaving Detroit.

By: Max

Max — Sat, 10 Mar 2012 05:18:53 +0000

I like putting the Pistons in that group, but how many years did the Bulls, Celtics and Rockets miss the playoffs after losing Jordan and Bird and Olajuwon? I’m thinking the number for all three is bigger than three and the Pistons haven’t gotten their third lottery pick yet from their upcoming third year out of the playoffs.
Also, the Lakers are in their own universe.

By: Patrick Hayes

Patrick Hayes — Sat, 10 Mar 2012 05:06:23 +0000

Since Isiah's rookie year, six teams have won multiple championships, including the Pistons. Of those, the Pistons have missed the playoffs eight times. Here are the rest:

- Spurs have missed four times

- Rockets have missed ten times

- Lakers have missed two times

- Celtics have missed nine times

- Bulls have missed nine times

Basically, other than the Lakers and Spurs, who are head and shoulders above everyone, the Pistons are right in line with other multi-champions when it comes to rebuilding/reloading periods.

Seriously, the Pistons are one of the league's flagship franchises and one of the most successful in modern NBA history. Teams like that don't go through long, painful rebuilds like the dregs of the league go through. This will be Detroit's fourth straight losing season and third straight season not in the playoffs. I don't see anything unfair at all about fans saying enough is enough when it comes to the "rebuild" process. Other franchises of Detroit's caliber have shown an ability to retool or rebuild and at least get back to the playoffs in a reasonable amount of time.

By: Max

Max — Sat, 10 Mar 2012 04:58:36 +0000

I think the Bulls were also being spiteful and allowed themselves to knowingly overpay because they were also injuring the Pistons by signing Wallace. I also think Dumars should have matched because the Pistons weren’t going to get under the cap anyway.
There is a basic fault when discussing contracts in not considering that these players aren’t all in a store somewhere as available for purchase which gives customers the right to pick and choose as they will. Usually, the options are extremely limited. Joe Johnson’s contract was about his leverage. He would have walked and joined the Knicks if they didn’t overpay and if they had not, they would probably have missed the playoffs last year and this year so the team felt like they had to bite the bullet. I’m quite sure the Hawks never thought they were making a great deal and were probably gritting their teeth the whole time. I think they made a mistake but I guess if you are the Hawks, having a streak of making the playoffs is a big deal. They haven’t won a title since Bob Pettit was there and for most of my life have more often than not missed the playoffs.

By: Max

Max — Sat, 10 Mar 2012 04:48:15 +0000

Those weren’t rebuilding periods in that they each only included very short stretches towards the bottom before the Pistons had plenty of reasons for excitement. In the 90s, they were awful one season and then they had Grant Hill. Rebuilding accomplished. His rookie year was exciting and by his 2nd year, the Pistons were good. In the 2000s, I and everyone else expected them to fall off of a cliff when they traded Grant Hill, but instead they won 36 games and after that one terrible year of rebuilding the Pistons were back in the playoffs and wouldn’t stop going until their most recent appearance. If you put all of the years the Pistons missed the playoffs between the drafting of Isiah and the hiring of Coach Q, you probably don’t equal the pain and suffering of the average rebuilding period.

By: Patrick Hayes

Patrick Hayes — Sat, 10 Mar 2012 04:37:17 +0000

The Bulls overpaid a productive player who was at the age players are when they typically start to show signs of slowing down. It was a gamble and it didn’t pay off, because Wallace very clearly wasn’t the same player in Chicago he was in Detroit, even if he was still a decent player. In fact, his last season in Detroit showed some signs that he was nearing the end of his prime. They paid him big betting that he had at least a couple more vintage seasons in him and they turned out to be wrong. It happens. Atlanta is going to find out the same thing with Joe Johnson. They maxed him out when he was at the tail end of his prime and he’s going to spend most of the life of that contract severely under-performing it.

It’s always risky to sign guys who are 30 or older long-term. There are countless examples of those contracts not being wise investments. Jermaine O’Neal was a good one, Shaquille O’Neal was a good one, Rasheed Wallace didn’t even make it the life of his contract before retiring, Ron Artest is another. It happens all the time, so Prince’s contract isn’t a total shock. I still don’t think that it will ultimately be a great investment. The Pistons have certainly handed out worse contracts to worse players in recent years, but I’m not going to pretend that I think Prince’s deal was a good one for the team just because it wasn’t as terrible as Ben Gordon’s deal.

By: Max

Max — Sat, 10 Mar 2012 04:35:37 +0000

I think RIP’s fiery personality and Prince’s calm, logical demeanor are what separates them as well as the fact that RIP couldn’t handle being challenged for minutes and shots. You’ve been pretty consistent in your criticism towards Prince for taking too many shots but it’s speculation to say how Prince would handle teammates pushing him for minutes and shots because it has never happened yet. I think it would be a lot easier in Dumars’ position to sign off on subtracting RIP when you have Stuckey and Gordon who are established NBA players to fill the spot than when you consider losing Prince and have only an unproven Daye and 2nd year player who just missed an entire season due to injury with Jerebko to fill the void.

By: Patrick Hayes

Patrick Hayes — Sat, 10 Mar 2012 04:31:18 +0000

Wallace was a solid player into his 30s. But if you don’t think he regressed significantly during that time, you’re crazy. He was nowhere near the same player he was at 32, 33, 34, etc. that he was in his prime years. This happened because all players regress in their 30s. Some more rapidly than others and occasionally there’s someone like Steve Nash who defies all logic and plays at an all-star level into his late 30s. That’s so exceedingly rare though and I don’t get why you treat it as a foregone conclusion that Prince won’t experience this kind of decline. Maybe he won’t and if he doesn’t, I’ll probably still be here writing posts about how crazy it is that 35 year old Tayshaun Prince is producing and defending like 27 year old Tayshaun Prince was. But that’s so highly, highly unlikely based on the history of how players age/decline.

By: Patrick Hayes

Patrick Hayes — Sat, 10 Mar 2012 04:27:32 +0000

That’s certainly not an insult directed at Prince. I take your comment as not fully understanding the impact of Wallace in his prime. He was a legitimate franchise player and MVP candidate. He was the cornerstone of that championship team, even if people want to pretend that every player on that starting was as valuable as the next. There was a clear tier. It was Wallace way up here, then everyone else in some order behind him. Wallace in his prime might have been worth three Princes. That’s not to say Prince was bad. But he’s always just been a valuable, competent complimentary player.