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Joe Dumars Week

Joe Dumars inspires an incredible range of opinions among Pistons fans. Eight years ago, a team he built won an NBA championship. Now, the team he built is more likely to win the NBA lottery.

One of the greatest players in franchise history, Dumars became the Pistons’ general manager in 2000. Since then, he’s been rated as the league’s best GM and it’s worst. No doubt, he fits somewhere between, but where?

This week, in addition to our normal coverage, we’re going to present a series of posts on Dumars – a referendum on his tenure as Pistons president, and ultimately, whether it should continue.

Ladies and Gentleman, Joe Dumars Week begins.

42 Comments

  • Feb 6, 201211:44 am
    by Birdman84

    Reply

    “This week, in addition to our normal coverage, we’re going to present a series of posts on Dumars – a referendum on his tenure as Pistons president, and ultimately, whether it should continue.”

    I’ll save you guys some trouble. No, it should not continue.

  • Feb 6, 201211:48 am
    by TakMac

    Reply

    I was thinking about this over the weekend.

    I went to go try and rebuild the Pistons over on the trade machine and I stared at the screen for a few minutes. Then a few minutes more. Then I realized that the Pistons don’t have any viable trade assets. There is no trade taht the Pistons could make that would help them that does not involve trading Knight or Monroe.

    I don’t know if we have the worst roster in the NBA, but it is certainly the least flexible roster.

    But thank god we have Tayshaun and Stuckey for 3 more years. Otherwise we’d probably only have 4 wins.

    Vote No on Dumars in 2012

  • Feb 6, 201212:24 pm
    by frankie d

    Reply

    great…so joe d will no longer be dark lord voldemort, he who shall not be named!
    for a guy who has been around forever, he is remarkably absent from almost all discussions about the state of the team in the area’s media.
    when you read articles or columns in either of the major dailies about the state of the team, it is amazing how often his name is not even mentioned. 
    coaches, players, owners…they all get discussed and scrutinized.  dumars?  strangely absent.

    • Feb 6, 201212:36 pm
      by Patrick Hayes

      Reply

      Are you saying that he’s just not discussed enough or that he doesn’t talk to media enough?

      Because if it’s the latter, I don’t think Dumars is uncommon in rarely speaking. Aside from a few media loving guys like Ainge and Morey, GMs are a pretty quiet lot. Sam Presti only talks a couple times a year. I couldn’t pick RC Buford out of a lineup if my life depended on it. Coaches and players in general are scrutinized way more because they are the product we see and they can be evaluated/discussed/scrutinized on a game to game basis.

      • Feb 6, 20122:07 pm
        by frankie d

        Reply

        i am primarily referring to the fact that he is not discussed enough.  read the news or freep and read columns from everyone from drew sharpe to terry foster and wojo and albom.  read the beat writers.  seldom is dumars’ role in the team’s demise discussed.  again, everyone else is discussed, but other than an occasional, cursory, brief mention of his name, he is a non-entity.
        in the best mitch albom tradition, bad events have just …happened, through no fault of anyone.  
        players have moved on, players brought on board….the team lacks cap space or young players to make certain moves…somehow….someway and no one is to blame when things don’t work out.
        nowhere do you see any real analysis of his moves, or how his trades and signings may have affected the team.
        it would be one thing if joe had nothing to do with the team’s demise.  or like morey, he’d hired into a situation with lots of things to resolve and clear out.   but he has been in charge from the good days to the bad days, and is obviously responsible for the personnel moves that have been made.  for the media to not prominently note his role, when the current state of the team is discussed is dishonest, imho.
        it also would be nice if he was more visible, but that is another issue and  of secondary importance.    
        the main problem i have with his lack of visibility is when quotes that most likely come from joe are provided anonymity.   there are often good reasons to use quotes from unnamed sources.  most times, in sports, it is, imho, not justified.  but when anonymity is used to pursue personal grudges in the media, to besmirch someone’s reputation  - as seemed to be the case in the rip hamilton affair, when lots of poisonous stuff was planted in the media – it just is not fair.  if joe wants to get information out, let him be man enough to stand in front of a mike or talk to a reporter and say what he thinks.  with those quotes accurately attributed to him.  let him deal with the consequences.
        the gms you mentioned above have had a lot of success.  
        when things are going great, there is less need of communication with the public. 
        morey is the only gm who has not been on a very successful team, but he has obvious excuses, starting with the career-ending injury of his francise center.  and morey is generally considered – like presti and buford – based on his moves, one of the best gms around.  he inherited a team with two franchise players – yao ming and t-mac – who went through career debilitating and ending injuries and they’ve remained an above .500 team.   a team that went through a dip, but not the catastrophe that detroit has gone through.  and he’s built a team with lots of young, tradeable assets and cap flexibility.  whether he’s able to parlay that into on-court success remains to be seen, but his record, especially considering his obstacles, has been impressive. 
        of course, joe can stay in his office and speak to no one.
        but he’s lost a lot of credibility with his fan base and the way to get it back is not to hide behind his longtime media mouthpieces, many of whom are friends from way back.
        i sorta, kinda socially ran in the same social circle as sharpe and foster back in the day when they both covered the pistons for their papers.  they were young beat reporters when joe d was a young player and they established relationships and friendships that endure to this day.  i know for a fact that it colors their ability to report on him, in any sort of objective way.
        (and yes, i know that they are now columnists, but they are still journalists.  i know the difference between the beat writers and the columnists.)
        their influence trickles down, just as joe falls’ influence and mitch albom’s influence has trickled down in detroit sports journalism.
        if joe d wants to see the palace filled with fans again, one of the most important things he can do is to start to talk to the media, and through them, fans.  and to talk honestly.  no more BS that anyone can see through.
        he’s always been the most important piston during his reign.  everyone knew it.  more important then coaches and individual players.  even fans have been aware of his importance.  there have been few individuals who’ve had the kind of relationship as first a player and then a successful executive as joe d.  jerry west is the only one who really comes to mind.  bill russell to some degree, but his relationship with boston fans was not really all that great.  his refusal to accept accountability and responsibility for the team’s recent problems is a huge part of why fans have deserted the team.  he can rectify that by assuming a higher profile.

        • Feb 6, 20124:57 pm
          by apa8ren9

          Reply

          I think he isnt mentioned a lot because opinions are all across the board.  Usually the papers like to hone in on some type of theme or trend that’s happening.  Just like on this board opinions run the entire spectrum so he cant necessarily be pinned down in a short narrative.  Also, I think its pretty hard to sway people from those opinions since he actually two championships and GM’ed a 3rd and we have been competitive most of the time. Fans that critique basketball are very territorial.  They defend the guys they like to the end.  With that being said.  I dont think the writers can pin him down and that is why you dont see him written about much.  From the looks of things Gores has given him the green light so there isnt really anything to talk about, he is safe for now.  If the off-season is a disaster though – look for him to catch more heat in the papers, but it looks like that is 2 years away from getting to that point.

        • Feb 6, 20125:24 pm
          by Patrick Hayes

          Reply

          Couple of thoughts on the media covering the team:

          - All of the major beat writers covering the Pistons are newer to the beat (i believe Vince Ellis is the most senior of them, and he’s only been the Freep beat guy for a few seasons), and therefore, don’t have a history/relationship that some long-term beat writers would have.

          - Dumars, as I mentioned, has always been reclusive. He didn’t talk when the team was great and everyone thought he was a genius and he doesn’t talk now when the team is terrible and most people blame him. It’s not like he’s shirking responsibility. The guy just rarely talks to the media.

          - The columnists don’t ever write about the Pistons b/c this is a huge pro and college sports town and the Pistons are terrible. It’s hard to have that perspective in this little corner here where we all think the Pistons are the greatest and watch them even when they’re using every Tom, Dick and Morris Day and the Time washed up celebrity to distract us from how brutal the team actually is. Dan and I write about the Pistons because we’re always interested in them. But columnists have to write about what their audience wants. With the Lions, Tigers and Red Wings all good and with UM and MSU football and basketball programs all performing well, the Pistons can’t even be called a back-burner team. They’re on no burner in local media.

          I would suspect you’d see Dumars getting ripped occasionally be columnists if they remembered the Pistons existed. Hell, Dumars getting ripped by a columnist would actually be a good thing in some ways. At least it would be coverage in the state’s major news outlets. The audience just, overall, isn’t there for Pistons news because of the success of other teams and media outlets have adjusted accordingly.

          - Beat writers rarely rip a source in an opinion piece unless it is unbelievably necessary. Their job is a grind (albeit a fun one, since they get to watch ball every night), especially when the team is losing. When you have a source like Dumars who is rarely available, it would make little strategic sense to rip him when you might need him for access down the line. It’s one thing if you have a long relationship where you can do it in a fair way that doesn’t erode some trust. But with newer beat writers who probably don’t know Dumars all that well yet, it’s tough to expect that they’re going to write something critical.

          - You gotta stop using Portland media as a comparison. The Blazers basically own the Pacific Northeast. There is little pro and college sports competition there. They have a history of a rabid, college-like fanbase. And, on top of that, some of the absolute best beat writers in any NBA city cover the Blazers. The Pistons don’t have any of those things going for them.

          • Feb 6, 20127:53 pm
            by frankie d

            i don’t even want the writers to rip dumars.  i just want them to objectively report on why certain circumstances exist.
            for instance, when discussion about a couple of  young players – spaights and mullens – happened, the beat writers did not truly explain why the pistons could not pursue those players.  one writer, i think it was vince ellis, did a cursory bit of reporting that read like a press release from the team, as to why they could not pursue those players.  
            no cap room, other teams not wanting our young talent, etc, but no real explanation of why the team was in it’s current salary cap bind.  a fan has to search the internet for basic salary cap information that explains the team’s circumstances. how many fans know that the team has almost 6.5 million tied up in the salaries of two guards who are not on the team?
            when a beat writer writes the type of article where those things might be issues, or that attempts to explain or even justify why the team cannot take certain actions, or has little flexibility, i think it is only fair that they really explain why that circumstance exists.
            what typically happens with detroit writers is that they state the fact without telling a reader why that fact exists or the background that may have cause that fact to exist.
            they could even have a boilerplate paragraph that they insert into such stories, cutting and pasting it, from article to article, to fully inform fans as to why things do or don’t happen.  state objectively that 5.5 million is owed to rip and that 788,000 is owed to terrico white and that those salaries impact on the team’s ability to pursue certain actions.  not reporting that information is unfair to fans.
            just some simple, basic reporting is all i expect.  and if that reflects badly on dumars, then that is just the way it is. 
            this is what i think happens.  the older guys like foster and sharpe are friends and unfortunately will do any and everything to avoid criticizing dumars, even if it compromises them professionally.  they’ll lfigure that no one will notice that much and if they do, so what.
            and the younger guys, ones without that personal relationship, are not secure enough to step out and write stuff that might generate negative feedback from a guy like dumars, who is rightfully a legendary figure in the city. 
            i think there is a reasonable space, where professional reporters can do their jobs and fans can get the information they need and want.

          • Feb 8, 20122:36 pm
            by Dan Feldman

            “when a beat writer writes the type of article where those things might be issues, or that attempts to explain or even justify why the team cannot take certain actions, or has little flexibility, i think it is only fair that they really explain why that circumstance exists.”

            With space limits, it’s just not feasible to address every reason behind everything.

            The Pistons have no cap room
            …because Dumars signed Villanueva and Gordon
            …because he cleared cap room by trading Billups for Iverson
            …because Dumars saw his core as stale
            …because they hadn’t made the Finals in a few years
            …because they became complacent after a championship
            …because Dumars put together a championship team
            …because Bill Davidson hired Dumars
            …because Dumars played for the Pistons
            …because Jack McClosky drafted Dumars

            …and on and on. There’s a limit somewhere, and I don’t think the beat writers really fall on the wrong side of it.

  • Feb 6, 201212:28 pm
    by Stuckey and Russel Walker Jrr

    Reply

    This should also be known as Laser week.  Come on now you know that was a good one.

    @TakMak  Try mentioning BG and CV and the rest of the hurt overpaid bench players before you talk about Stuckey and Tayshaun.

  • Feb 6, 201212:39 pm
    by D_S_V

    Reply

    Yes! Joe Dumars Week is my FAVORITE week of the year!

  • Feb 6, 201212:59 pm
    by Victor Fontana

    Reply

    I’d normally argue in favor of letting JD in charge, maybe giving him the opportunity to build around Monroe and Davis/Drummond. But signing Tayshaun and Stuckey to those contracts makes his case difficult. I still don´t understand the reasoning behind those deals.

    • Feb 8, 20122:45 pm
      by Dan Feldman

      Reply

      On a simple level, acquiring quality players is difficult. Typically, letting quality players go for nothing is a poor choice.

  • Feb 6, 20121:01 pm
    by sebastian

    Reply

    Joe has really jacked up OUR roster, over the last 4 years, no doubt about it. He has recently stated that he would not be interested in making a trade that would be described as a lateral (my word) move.
    I think that Joe needs to consider making a move that may be considered a lateral move, but I think that the following suggestion would be an “under the radar” move, but it would go a long ways to helping OUR Pistons to becoming more competitive going forward.
    Trade: Maxey, Daye, the draft rights to Kyle Singler, and OUR 2012 Second Round pick to the Houston Rockets for: Jordan Hill, Hasheem Thabeet, and Terrance Williams.
    Jordan Hill: Would be a real addition to OUR current front line, where he could play with Monroe and become a Ben Wallace-type player.
    Thabeet could become an option off of the bench at the center position and at times could play with Monroe.
    Terrance Williams could become a back court mate of Stuckey and Knight. Williams would be a defensive piece on the parameter. Additionally, Williams would make it so that Stuckey plays harder, because their games are so similar I believe that practices between the two would be beneficial to the both of them, when they play in real game situations.
    On March 1, Joe should fine any contender that would be interested in Tayshaun’s services and move him for a late first round pick.
    If Joe was to make these moves in coming days, then I would say that he has restored some resemblance of respectability.
    I truly believe that some deals will need to be made, as soon as possible, so that WE don’t waste the efforts of Monroe and Knight. Also, it is not good to have these guys become to familiar with losing.

  • Feb 6, 20121:04 pm
    by Max

    Reply

    I predict that a lot of people will say Dumars should be fired, but I also predict they will offer no ideas regarding who should replace him and that they couldn’t off a viable name if they tried that wouldn’t be anything more than a shot in the dark or like betting on the actual lottery where the odds against you actually picking the right number are in the millions.

    • Feb 6, 20121:23 pm
      by neutes

      Reply

      There are a lot of stupid smart people out there, so I agree I wouldn’t want to trust just anyone to do the job. Of course, I don’t think it takes a genius to be a GM, well an NBA GM anyway, which is hands down the easiest GM job of any of the major sports. I could do it. You could do it. Laser could do it. Unfortunately none of us are former players or know the right person who knows the right person. Dumars is easily replaceable, but at least he’s no Otis Smith, so it could be worse. Not much worse, because you can’t get much worse, but somehow there is worse out there.

    • Feb 6, 20121:32 pm
      by Patrick Hayes

      Reply

      I’m on the fence about whether Dumars should stay or go, but “who would you hire instead?” qualifies as about the silliest reason to not make a move. As far as respected guys with track records, Donnie Walsh and Kevin Pritchard are still out there I believe. And some of the most qualified people are working in the league as underlings right now. I’m pretty sure most people hadn’t heard of Sam Presti before he was hired or Chris Grant or Dell Demps or Neil Olshey, for example, and those guys are all doing respected or better jobs. There are probably several people working in the league who could do the job effectively if given the opportunity. Doesn’t mean they should necessarily get rid of Dumars if they have good reasons for keeping him, but inaction simply because you don’t do due diligence on other viable candidates is inexcusable.

      • Feb 6, 20121:50 pm
        by Max

        Reply

        It’s not as if Dumars is not a GM with championship pedigree and while I’d actually agree that Pritchard is a viable name that is out there (when I couldn’t think of one myself) Donnie Walsh is incredibly overrated and is probably too old if he actually was a good GM.   My point isn’t just that about picking a replacement though and is as much about the idea that’s it’s about 5 years too early to even have this conversation.   Name me the championship GMs who have been fired for missing the playoffs twice and you won’t be able to do it and while I’m sure I’ll get some flack for saying this; if the Pistons fire Dumars, he immediately goes to the top of the list of available GMs in terms of resume.  The fact of the matter is that there is not an available GM to hire that has constructed a championship squad and while you can name some GMs who were unknown and  unproven and are doing decent job (don’t know why you include Demps) they are the exceptions and not the rule.  The more likely result of firing Dumars is to replace him with a vastly inferior GM who will not carry cache, respect, familiarity and good will with the other GMs without surviving a trial by fire whose outcome no one can intelligently predict.
        BTW: Evidence of how bad Walsh was; when he was hired by the Knicks he was asked to name his best move managing the Pacers.  He answered by naming his trade of Detlef Shrempf for Derrick McKey which was an awful trade and I was shocked that Walsh would say so.

        • Feb 6, 20122:08 pm
          by Patrick Hayes

          Reply

          Donnie Walsh isn’t overrated. He built a championship contender in Indiana and masterfully undid Isiah Thomas’s years of mess in NY to make the Knicks players for stars in free agency. He did exactly what he was hired to do.

          As for Dumars, you’re right. He would be highly sought-after league-wide. But that’s not the point. It’s commonplace in the corporate world to change leadership positions over time. There is a line of thinking that high level managers, eventually, need to be changed, that new voices are needed in an organization. I don’t know if the Pistons are at that point yet, but they could be. It’s a results business. He hasn’t had good results (by his standards) for going on four seasons now. The arena is empty and the team has sunk money into players who haven’t lived up to those contracts. Tom Gores, first and foremost, is a successful business man. Dumars probably doesn’t have much time to right this.

          • Feb 6, 20122:23 pm
            by Max

            He masterfully undid Isiah’s tenure by dumping for several years in order to land LBJ and failed when if he had left well enough alone they would have been built around Zach Randolph and been much better sooner.

          • Feb 6, 20122:24 pm
            by Max

            And if building a contender in Indiana automatically means that Walsh was good, then how does having much greater success and a title reflect on Dumars?

          • Feb 6, 20122:29 pm
            by Max

            If Gores is smart, he will realize that Dumars is the Pistons greatest asset.

          • Feb 6, 20122:29 pm
            by Patrick Hayes

            When have I ever said Dumars doesn’t, overall, have a good track record and reputation? You don’t need to criticize Walsh, who was also very good, to make the point that Dumars is a respected executive in the league.

          • Feb 6, 20122:34 pm
            by Max

            @Patrick…..not making the point about Walsh to defend Dumars.  I’m a New Yorker and I was saying he was overrated the day he was hired in NY and have found plenty of people around me who agree.   He’s good at PR and managed to put some respectable players around Reggie Miller and sneak into the finals, where the team wasn’t really a contender since they had no chance of winning, a couple of times due to a weak conference.
            He did made a great trade of Dale Davis for Jermaine O’Neal and to me, that’s about the best thing he ever did.  Otherwise, if you scrutinize his Pacers and Knicks record, I for one find plenty of fault.
             

  • Feb 6, 20121:05 pm
    by Max

    Reply

    *offer

  • Feb 6, 20121:32 pm
    by neutes

    Reply

    I think this is a great idea. Do you guys plan to recapture the glory days of his playing history as well? I have to be honest I’m a Dumars fan. He’s a Piston for life. He’s been a part of this franchise since he was what? 22 years old? I don’t care if Dumars is fired or not. I’d rather he got his head out of his ass and made some moves, because I don’t really want to see him get fired. All I’m asking for is some sign that he gets it. Year after year he disappoints me. The latest is the Prince signing. And to be honest the Rip buyout wasn’t all that great of a decision either. Just give me a sign Dumars. Any sign. I’ll forgive the 40 consecutive dumb decisions if you could just do one thing right.

    There was a rumor he was offered the Nets job when Russian Mark Cuban took over and he declined it. Think about this: He was offered a job with a clean slate, tons of 1st round draft picks, and an owner willing to spend whatever it took and he decided to stay with this sinking ship. That boggles my mind if true.

    • Feb 6, 20122:10 pm
      by Dan Feldman

      Reply

      Although there might be some passing mentions to Dumars the player, this week will primarily revolve around Dumars the executive.

  • Feb 6, 20121:59 pm
    by Max

    Reply

    Dumars is attempting to be a lifer and why shouldn’t he.  If the Pistons take the despicable action of firing him, he will have his pick of available jobs and teams will be falling all over themselves to hire him.   He doesn’t need a clean slate because he has championship pedigree, a HOF name and is still fairly young for his job.   If he gets fired, he will get a huge raise from someone else so he’s got leverage up the wazoo.

    • Feb 6, 20122:07 pm
      by neutes

      Reply

      I don’t get your whole championship pedigree kick you’re on. If some other team hired Dumars I’d just laugh my ass off watching him laugh his way to the bank. At this point I have so little confidence in Dumars that I’m quite positive whatever team he took over he’d run right into the ground. Being desired and being good at what you do don’t always correlate (i.e. Gordon, Prince, Rip, CV, etc).

      • Feb 6, 20122:21 pm
        by Max

        Reply

        I don’t get the kick you’re on whatsoever and naming a few bad moves doesn’t really substantiate anything since every GM in history makes bad moves over time.  Dumars has made two lottery picks since achieving an all time great run in this league for which he deserved disproportionate credit as compared with many another GM who presided over runs because he built the team from the ground up and chose every player.  I don’t think it’s fair to knock him until at least that first lottery pick, Monroe, has completed his fourth year and I believe if someone were to take over now, they would eventually get undue credit because Monroe will be earning a disproportionate for whatever success this team has moving forward.  The bottom line is that if the Pistons are good two years from now and Dumars is still in place then everyone will foolish for questioning him now and realize how short sighted they were.  Coaches often have short tenures in this league but the GM job is one that takes in a far longer view and even rookie GMs are usually allowed to run a team into the ground for about 5 years before anyone thinks of firing them.   The Pistons fan base however is incredibly spoiled and is experiencing its first fairly normal rebuilding period since Isiah.   After Zeke retired, the Pistons missed the playoffs once before having the incredible good luck of drafting Grant Hill 3rd overall.  Most teams required 10 trips or more to the lottery before they walk away with a Grant Hill and that simply accelerated the process beyond what is usual.  When Grant Hill decided to leave, the Pistons had the incredible good luck (I won’t even argue to give Dumars total credit) of trading him for Ben Wallace who performed beyond anyone’s wildest expectations when he arrived.   Dumars made a series of shrewder than shrewd moves afterwards though and the rest is history.  However, for fans to not expect to be bad (or even understand how it happened and is normal) after making the conference finals 6 years in a row and the playoffs more years than that seems to me to be a sign of ignorance and poor thinking.

        • Feb 6, 20122:29 pm
          by neutes

          Reply

          Because there’s now light at the end of the tunnel we should forget the last 3 years of some of the worst General Managership in the history of the NBA? I get that he could stay in place and ride out these contracts and keep drafting lottery picks and maybe he looks good at the end. I’m still pissed that for 3 straight years he didn’t have a clue. He didn’t even mutter the word rebuild until this year. What the hell has he been doing? Running this team into the ground was never part of the plan. Rebuilding was never the plan. It’s only the plan now because he failed, and now has to admit defeat by saying the word rebuild.

          • Feb 6, 20122:40 pm
            by Max

            But you are very wrong if you believe that rebuilding is not inevitable and also if you think 3 years is a long time to be bad.  They have Monroe and Knight for their pains and they will have another lottery pick for this third year.   Unfortunately, Dumars missed on Darko because until drafting Monroe, the Pistons suffered a drought going back to Grant Hill regarding the draft of any impact player lottery pick, but that is what comes with great success.

          • Feb 6, 20122:51 pm
            by neutes

            I never said it wasn’t inevitable. I just don’t know what’s better – to plan and orchestrate a systematic rebuild or to hang on and try to fight until you have nothing left and have no choice but to rebuild. Dumars chose the latter and it became so difficult for just about every fan to watch him try to hang on these past few seasons when we all knew the inevitable outcome. I could go back and forth on this but the fact is Dumars should have recognized the future he was trying to prevent was unavoidable and planned accordingly.

            What’s great is we have a whole week to argue about this still! I’m so excited!

          • Feb 6, 20123:09 pm
            by Max

            I think the Billups trade (as badly as it turned out) was Dumars attempt to both rebuild and possibly hang on.  Iverson had one of his best statistical years the season before in Denver, Billups kept missing games or playing hurt in the playoffs ever year–which has continued 2 out of the 3 years since–and people thought the Pistons problem was that they were too predictable and needed an X-factor.  Personally, I thought Stuckey was and and could have been that X-factor but leaving that aside, acquiring Iverson allowed Dumars to swing for the fence for one year (a total whiff) and if it didn’t work out, get far enough under the cap to make some big rebuilding moves.    I think his biggest mistake was in the timing of it because there were literally no great free agents to sign with the money that summer and he actually signed two of the best–going by the objective rankings of that summer free agent class–but they have badly underperformed and so, the Pistons were not able to hold on.
            Dumars’ problems however were greatly compounded by the Pistons going through their worst season in history regarding injuries and health so it was fair for him to feel like he didn’t even get a chance to see whether his moves had worked or not that year and so he didn’t change much of anything and took his look last year.
            There has been a lot of debate about whether Dumars had the power to makes significant moves last year and I don’t believe that he did, but in either event, last year was in all fairness his, and everyone’s, first real look at the team following the signing of BG and CV.
            He did not make a trade in the few weeks he had prior to this season but he has said that he doesn’t want to make lateral moves or ones that are not dedicated to the future so I think it’s fair to say that since he did get his first look at the team following the BG and CV signing that he has admitted to himself that he must rebuild the team and I think he has a better asset in Monroe to get started with than he had the last time around when he was a rookie GM.
            Someone said they could do a better job and that I could do a better job and I would respond by saying that if I were to take over right now, I would agree with Dumars’ position of not making lateral moves or ones that are not principally dedicated to the future of the team and I would be looking to next year’s draft and identifying players around the league in general who could fit well with Monroe.  Once I had taken my survey, I would show great patience, as a rookie GM with time to rebuild, and I wouldn’t make any moves to acquire any but those players I had identified that would fit well with Monroe and I wouldn’t worry whether it took me a year or 3 to acquire enough of them, to go along with high draft picks, to put the team back in contention.  The worst place to be in the NBA is a 5-8th seed.   That is death and mediocrity and you can’t get much better or worse.

  • Feb 6, 20123:09 pm
    by Max

    Reply

    I meant to say, but you can get worse.

  • Feb 6, 20124:33 pm
    by gordbrown

    Reply

    Do I wish that Dumars had traded Hamilton and kept Billups? Every single day the Pistons play. Having said that this is the same Billups that was amnestied at the start of the year.. This is the same Billups that posted nearly identical stats to Stuckey last year. Teams get old and then they fall off a cliff. It will be interesting to check with SA when Duncan is gone. Also they had to be one of the worst teams in the league to get Duncan in the first place. Their success is a testimony to his durability as much as anything else. As much as I would like the team to have a high pick in the lottery this coming year, I doubt it will happen. Plus I want to the Pistons to win just to shut up the “I told you so crowd.” There is no reason, given some growth in what they have and a much easier schedule the rest of the way not to see dramatic improvement going forward. And that’s OK with me. Respectability might equal whistles which are much more valuable than lottery balls (which will only break your heart) in the long run.

  • Feb 6, 201210:28 pm
    by gmehl

    Reply

    I have mentioned this before and i will so again. You have to look at Joe in 2 ways: Joe from 2000 to 2006 and Joe from 2006 to 2012. To me they are like 2 very different people and needed to be treated that way. Joe from 2000 to 2006 took over a team that needed to rebuilt from the ground up which he did rather quickly that included a lot of savvy moves and also a lot of luck. Then Bill Davidson died, assistant coaches (Hammond) and scouts around Joe left. I am not saying Hammond was the brains behind all the success but rather just a sounding board to Joe. Then of coarse the sale which i feel made Joe rush and panic into a lot of decisions i am sure he wouldn’t of made if he had Davidson and Hammond surrounding him. Moving onto Joe from 2006 to 2012 we have a GM who lives in his own shadow and is constantly making the same mistakes by trying to patch over problems by either reaching for upside in drafts or handing out silly extensions to players so they can become Piston lifers. I loved Joe Dumars the player and i loved Joe from 2000 to 2006 but i am not so fond of Joe from 2006 to 2012. So it leaves the question of whether i think Joe should be fired or not. Part of me says yes and part of me says no but i am starting to lean towards that maybe its in his best interests that he has a year or 2 off and then find another position as a GM elsewhere. He has not been thinking clearly ever since his mentor and father figure Mr Davidson died and maybe he just needs some time away from the game. Maybe he could stay on as a scout for the pistons which i would assume would be less taxing for him and then in a couple of years revisit the option to be GM again.

    • Feb 7, 20122:03 am
      by Max

      Reply

      What has Joe done since the terrible signings of BG and CV that shows any lack of patience on Dumars’ part?  Where has he tried to patch over problems since then?  Personally, I can thinking of nothing I really approve of between the trading of Stuckey and those signings other than the drafting of Jerebko, but since then, I approve of his last two drafts and haven’t wanted him to make anything other than forward thinking moves and there hasn’t been one move I would consider that significant or would warrant placement on a timeline of this franchise’s history.

      • Feb 7, 20123:33 am
        by gmehl

        Reply

        Max the point i was trying to make (timeline aside) is that Joe from 2006 to now he seems to be a totally different person to the one that took over in 2000. I know we all change with time but thought that it was appropriate to point out that it might be in part due to the people who are no longer surround him in the front office. I remember the good old days where everything Joe touched turned to gold. He was like a gambler on a winning streak holding all the aces and then i guess he must of lost that lucky rabbit foot because as we have all seen since 06 he hasn’t had much luck. Also when i said patch over problems maybe i should of said rebuild on the fly. By that i mean’t the way he wasted the Billups money on CV & BG. Joe is a guy that could make a fire without match but if you give him a match he couldn’t start one to save his life. He had all that money and wasted it but you give him a couple of 2nd round picks and the guy will find you a decent rotation player or even a fringe all-star. Tom Gores is a smart guy and i assume that is why he hired all those advisers at then end of last year. I suppose it still doesn’t explain the money doled out to Prince but it makes me feel happier believing that.

        • Feb 7, 20128:57 am
          by Max

          Reply

          He drafted Greg Monroe lately which is the luckiest thing he ever did and the best transaction he has ever made.

    • Feb 8, 20122:54 pm
      by Dan Feldman

      Reply

      “You have to look at Joe in 2 ways: Joe from 2000 to 2006 and Joe from 2006 to 2012. To me they are like 2 very different people and needed to be treated that way.”

      I think this is a flawed way of evaluating Dumars. It’s easy to separate those periods, but he is the same guy. It’s difficult, but merging the two is necessary to determining whether he should continue on the job. The Pistons can’t keep one Dumars and fire another. There’s just one Dumars.

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