Comments on: The Bens bail out Pistons in win over Orlando

By: Laser

Laser — Wed, 04 Jan 2012 18:31:19 +0000

@Hayes: 1) Yes, Gordon appears to have a bit more pep in his step than he has since he got here. But I think there are a few reasons for that beyond physical health. I just never thought it was remotely reasonable to suspect a guard’s physical skills would so quickly and drastically diminish at his age. Especially when there’s a perfectly good explanation because of the awful system he’s suddenly inserted into with no point guard, loads of competition for minutes and shots, etc. It strikes me that in order for him to be effective, Gordon needs to play around 40 minutes and take somewhere between 15-20 shots. Playing under 27 minutes (adjusted for the time Rip was benched) with a quick hook and no chance to find a rhythm, he never had a chance. There was an easy explanation for his decline this whole time, but you and Feldman and others, for some crazy reason I’ll never understand, wanted to guess he was washed up and just plumb forgot how to play basketball.

Similarly, Rip is very likely to have a bounce-back season. Granted, he’s got competition on the wings, but he’s got a point guard and bigs to set screens, so he’s probably going to have a reasonable bounce-back. The difference here is that he’s three full seasons (to Gordon’s two) removed from having a system in which he had a reasonable chance to be successful, and he’s five years older than Gordon, so at age 33 he’s at the end of the window that’s considered an athlete’s physical peak.

2) Shooting 40% from three every year is fine, I guess. I just have no respect for their system is all. And if Howard leaves town, this roster is going to be positively frightening. They need a real force down low to draw double-teams and collect offensive rebounds or they’re sunk. Even with Howard, on any given year I give them exactly ZERO percent chance of winning a championship.

3) Frank’s reputation and all that jazz is all individual accomplishments as far as I’m concerned. We can all see that he’s a competent coach, he’s got a lot of passion, and he’s an infinite upgrade over the duds who came before him. Of course he wants to win games now, so does the team and especially Joe, but that’s not going to do anything positive for the long view of the franchise.

By: Laser

Laser — Wed, 04 Jan 2012 06:11:48 +0000

1) I don’t do drugs.

2) Without Ben Wallace, we lose this game. Period.

3) It’s probably best you don’t talk any more about me.

By: Laser

Laser — Wed, 04 Jan 2012 06:01:01 +0000

Oh I believe you, but that doesn’t excuse it. They’ve got too much going on up front to settle for the kinds of shots they took against us and probably take against everyone. It’s pathetic. At least we have an excuse for doing nothing but jack up jumpers, since we have zero inside presence.

By: Laser

Laser — Wed, 04 Jan 2012 05:59:13 +0000

I have no respect at all for Orlando, but yes they should beat us every night.

And a happy new year to you, old friend.

By: vic

vic — Wed, 04 Jan 2012 04:09:46 +0000

the best thing about these games is the shortened rotation. Thanks to coach Frank. It helps bring the best out of the players that do deliver good defense.

By: Max

Max — Wed, 04 Jan 2012 01:22:41 +0000

Prince and Stuckey are two cases in point of young players who must have stayed ready and looked good when the got the opportunity on a prime stage. They had the mettle and moxie to believe they belonged. This are Daye’s problems as I see them.
Daye is much more than a shooter and can contribute on a variety of levels if his head is right and it is about a lot more than his shot. His body language is tentative, he came into camp weighing even less than he did last year and he probably needs to build his body to feel comfortable. Missing shots doesn’t explain why he is not challenging shots or getting any rebounds where he has to challenge someone. For all you or I know, he is having trouble compared with others at learning the sets and is performing out of sync. What I do see is about a lot more than his shot and everyone here must be seeing it too.
Last year, he had a great preseason too, started the first couple of games, played awful basketball and was yanked. This is a case of fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me. The preseason is just not NBA basketball and to think it really demonstrates anything is a lot like pointing to what players put up in the d-league, the euro league or college.
Personally, I would like to see him get some minutes instead of say Maxiell at the bigger positions in a trial by fire because he would have a speed advantage and an ability to pull big men away from the basket to open up driving lanes for the guards and he would get a lot more open shots–which I think he needs desperately. However, since everyone and the coaching staff seems to want to play him at the small positions, smaller, quicker, more savvy guards and forwards are staying right with him, swiping at him down down low and making it very difficult for him to ever put the ball on the floor. He doesn’t have the strength to get any initial position on NBA guards but he does have the shooting to play away from the basket on big men and take them out of where they want to be defensively. That’s how I see it through my crack in the clouds.
I do predict that Frank will figure out how to work him in more effectively but I don’t really think it should be more than on a b list of priorities and I’m not really sure how much his trade value shifts either way. He is a very young 6-11 with an intriguing skill set, a beautiful jumper and a body that anyone looks at and thinks needs filling out. The player who is directly in his way, Tayshaun Prince, is better than him, a mainstay, and a known favorite of the GM. Plenty of teams want a player like that in any case because optimists see potential in the unknown. Daye has had his moments and Darko looked like less at the moment Joe flipped him for the pick that became Stuckey.
The bottom line is that Daye has gotten opportunities during the first five games and has performed very poorly. Only the most negative Piston fans I would think are complaining about his getting less PT over the last two games where the Pistons have looked as good as they have in years.

By: frankie d

frankie d — Wed, 04 Jan 2012 00:01:20 +0000

what a crock of nonsense.
put down the crack pipe. try not to fool around with any more acid.
of course playing time doesn’t, in and of itself, lead to confidence.
regular playing time allows a player to play without fear of quickly being removed from a game if they make one mistake or something bad happens. this typically allows a player to play with more confidence, because he is not worrying about a quick hook. and if that player plays with more confidence, he is likely to perform to the level that he is capable.
and if a player has reached the nba, that player typically does something very well. with some players, that something is shooting. as any idiot knows, shooters go through slumps. and as any shooter knows, the only way to get out of a slump is to shoot. one cannot shoot and break out of a slump if one is sitting on the bench.
if one is never able to get an adequate number of shots to get out of a shooting slump, the slump will persist.
most times, however, shooters who have been very good shooters for most of their lives, easily pull themselves out of shooting slumps, simply by shooting, regaining their confidence and ultimately doing what they’ve done for most of their lives – putting the ball in the basket.
that is why good coaches will actually encourage a player, especially one who is recognized as a good shooter, to continue shooting, in order to maintain their confidence and shooting eye.
again, a player cannot do that if they are sitting on someone’s bench.
there is the rare nick anderson type situation – where a player loses his confidence and his performance suffers – but that situation is so rare that it is noteworthy when it does happen.
and one simple concept seems to escape some fans. of course you want to help a player like daye because one wants to see him do well. but a team also has an investment in players they have drafted and paid. they are assets. and an organization typically wants to make certain their assets maintain their value so that they might, say, be able to trade them if an opportunity arises when a good, young center prospect becomes available.
sitting a player on the bench, as some sort of morality tale, punishing “bad” or incompetent behavior, is cutting one’s nose off to spite one’s face.
yes, a team tries to get players to perform to the level of their ability in order to help that individual. but they also do so in order to maintain the value of an asset that they may have poured, literally, millions of dollars into. good organizations are always cognizant of that dynamic. bad organizations allow personal pique, a desire to “punish” players for not being good, to enter into their decision-making, and in the meantime, end up destroying the value of assets they should be maintaining and protecting.
so not only is it in daye’s interest that he get back on track. it is also in the best interests of the organization that spent a first round draft choice on him and has paid him millions of dollars and obviously hopes to get a decent return on that investment, somehow, someway.

By: Max

Max — Tue, 03 Jan 2012 23:13:34 +0000

To make the point another way…………I make the assumption that team confidence has something to do with individual player confidence and team chemistry. Now if the Pistons had played Daye more the last two games and the Pistons were now 0-5, how much less confidence would that group collectively possess right now and how marred would be their ability to help each other?
If they went 0-11 and Daye finally had a breakout after wasting 20-30 minutes a games for 11 games, wouldn’t it be less relevant and wouldn’t people think he was just scoring in a vacuum on a bad time where somebody had to score? Wouldn’t people feel like when you play 11 games, you’re bound to have one good one? Now alternatively let’s say he again has his breakout game during game 11 on a team where he wasn’t getting minutes but his team is rather 5-5 and after his natural, unforced outburst, the team is 6-5. Wouldn’t his breakout come in a context of cohesion and confidence that could collectively be built upon and seen as significant versus as just another garbage game where somebody was bound to do something to combat the malaise of indifference that losing and mistakes would have already created by going 0-11?

By: Max

Max — Tue, 03 Jan 2012 22:37:48 +0000

I will never care whether Daye gets minutes until he actually proves he deserves them. People here talk about it being better to lose more games and develop Daye, but I personally find the goal of improving the culture and doing everything possible to reestablish an identity where the players go into games thinking they will win as much more important that the development of a single player who may not ever be a decent pro.
Daye actually reminds me of Darko. He has lots of skills and gifts but when you put him in a game against actually professionals, he has almost no confidence, plays tentatively and generally looks like he doesn’t belong. Iman Shumpert looked more like he belonged in the league during his first preseason game before he got hurt than Daye has ever looked in my view. Minutes aren’t always the problem.
Compare Daye to the current Dorell Wright situation. He is playing terribly but still getting decent minutes and the reason was that he had a great year last year and finally proved he could be an effective starter in his seventh season. However, if he doesn’t find his shot soon, they should bench him and consider that last season may well have been a fluke.
I think Daye and Wright are similar in that they need confidence, but as minutes does not, as some people think, necessarily lead to confidence, there is no reason to treat him markedly different than every other player in the league who must EARN minutes. If you get minutes and consistently play terribly, doesn’t that lead to less confidence? Wright deserves minutes for now, both because there is not a better veteran behind him and due to the credit he holds in reserve from having a truly great year last year, but if he goes on like this he will lose his credit and starting role. That’s how the league works. Daye has not built up an iota of credit and from what I have seen, he will probably never be as good as Prince or Jerebko is right now.
A culture where minutes are not earned and players are not held accountable has little hope of eventual and lasting success in my view no matter who the players are.
Daye and Bynum shouldn’t worry though. The first five games this year was the Pistons healthiest stretch in over two yeas even as other teams are watching players go down right and left. I actually think the Pistons should emphasize winning over all for as long as they are totally healthy because it could be the huge advantage they need to have a better season than anyone expects. That said, I almost assume the coming injuries that I believe will create time for players currently riding the bench.

By: frankie d

frankie d — Tue, 03 Jan 2012 18:22:09 +0000

of course, a new ben is probably not going to come around the bend. but there are guys who could have helped the team that joe has not shown real interest in.
tyson chandler.
okafur.
deandre jordan. who joe passed on twice, in the same draft, and instead drafted the immortal walter sleepy sharpe.
fesenko.
dalembert.
solomon alabi. terrico white was a priority.
amir johnson. who is the starting center for a toronto team that is playing good defense. joe gave him away.
i’m sure there are others. lots of big guys who would be better than what the team has now, and would have been worth a gamble, have been out there and joe has passed on them.
sure, ben is a unique treasure, but you have to try to get a guy to replace ben. joe d hasn’t even been trying. getting a reasonable facsimile is not as hard as joe d has made it seem.