Don’t disagree with you on that.

A few things.

1.  Pierce played the 3 in Boston.  Delonte West, Szczerbiak, and Gerald Green were the shooting guards.
2.  Ginobili was never better than Rip, IMO.  He came off the bench and missed a ton of games.  He’s never been a big time scorer and he played with an all time great post player who kept the opposing bigs from sliding over to challenge his drives.  Plus, always had Duncan to rely on if he had a bad game.
3.  It’s easy to say Chauncey has been superior to Rip since they have split up.  Chauncey went to a team with a dominant scorer who he could feed the ball to.  Rip was stuck playing with 2 guards masquerading as point guards.  Rip never played with a point guard once Chauncey left.  Chauncey got to play with Melo (a top 3 scorer in the league).  It’s not like Chauncey was playing with Willie Green and Rip was playing with Chris Paul.
4.  And as for those Advanced stats that “prove” Chauncey and Ben were more valuable than Rip, I don’t put much stock in them.  Chris Paul’s career high in PER is higher than any season Kareem Abdul-Jabbar EVER had.  Enough said.

I know I’m never going to change your mind on Rip and you’ll never change mine. Rip and Chauncey should have never been broken up.  The team around them should have improved.  That’s on Joe.

Paul Pierce (he was a two before they traded for Allen) and Ginobili were better. Iguodala was probably better too, factoring in his defensive capabilities.

“And when you factor in Rip’s playoff success, you could really only go with Kobe and Wade for sure.”

Hamilton was a good player who had playoff success because he was on a great team. Was he an important component of that success? Sure. Was he the driving force? Hell no.

“Rip didn’t have the talent as the other guys, but he was a big game player.”

I’m not arguing that. He clearly got a lot out of his more limited physical skills (frankly, you could say that a guy like Iverson, for example, got even more out of his limited physical skills than Hamilton, but I digress). Those other guys are still slightly or way (in a few cases) better players though.

“People always say Chauncey, or Ben or Rasheed or even Tayshaun were more valuable than Rip.”

Ben Wallace and Chauncey Billups were. Rasheed Wallace is debatable — his defense made him extremely valuable, but his inconsistent offense and below average rebounding somewhat counteract that defensive presence. Hamilton was much better and more valuable than Prince.

“We will never know for sure because Rip was always there when we were good.”

Comparing the statistical impact of all of the players on the championship team helps us evaluate. Billups and Ben Wallace clearly had more impact based on virtually all the advanced stats available.

“He didn’t get hurt in key games.”

Everyone in Detroit’s starting five was durable. Prince didn’t miss a game for like five years. Ben Wallace played hurt all the time.

“He rarely laid eggs in crucial playoff series.”

He was a good, important player in his prime. I have never said otherwise.

“We don’t know how the team would’ve fared with Michael Redd or somebody.”

That’s a different argument. I’m not saying subbing Hamilton for any player above would’ve made the Pistons better necessarily. Who knows how that would’ve affected the dynamic of the team. What I’m saying is, individually, there were probably at least 8-10 SGs who were better than Hamilton during his prime. He probably falls in the 9-11 range somewhere for me if I were pressed to rank them.

“People assume if he were traded instead of Chauncey and he and Iverson battled for starting pg duties, the team would have went back to the ECF.  I don’t believe that.”

I’ve never once heard someone say this, and I’ve read thousands of Pistons related comments on this site and MLive over the last few years. First of all, Denver didn’t even want Hamilton, so that’s kind of a weird assumption to make.

But if we’re arguing whether the Pistons would’ve simply been better if they kept Billups and didn’t have Hamilton? I would bet that they would be. Billups has been a far superior player to Hamilton since the trade. Hamilton plays a position and role (wing scorer) that is easier to fill than Billups does as a point guard.

Hamilton at his peak was a very good player. But there are limitations to his game. He needed to play in a system with a good passing point guard and big men who are good screen setters in order to flourish. When those elements were gone, his game went in the tank as evidenced by his shooting percentage the last three years. That’s the difference between Hamilton and the others — Wade, Bryant, Pierce, Allen, McGrady have all played on really bad teams and still flourished individually, even if the supporting talent around them was weak. Hamilton was really good with really good supporting talent and he was an average or a bit below player when he had bad supporting talent.

He was a very important piece of a championship team, but there was a clear pecking order of importance on that team, and he wasn’t at the very top of it.

Rip didn’t have the talent as the other guys, but he was a big game player.  People always say Chauncey, or Ben or Rasheed or even Tayshaun were more valuable than Rip.  We will never know for sure because Rip was always there when we were good.  He didn’t get hurt in key games.  He rarely laid eggs in crucial playoff series.  We don’t know how the team would’ve fared with Michael Redd or somebody.  

A lot of fans took Rip for granted.  People assume if he were traded instead of Chauncey and he and Iverson battled for starting pg duties, the team would have went back to the ECF.  I don’t believe that.

That’s fine. I don’t agree, I think he was just outside that top 10 mark. But it’s not egregious to put him in the bottom of the top 10 either. The bigger issue, though, is that I don’t feel like he was ever the best player on the Pistons during their peak. Ben Wallace and Chauncey Billups were better. Some would argue Rasheed Wallace was even more valuable because of his defense. At any rate, he was probably 3-4th best and then 2nd-3rd best on the team when Ben left. When he was in a position as the team’s best player, his production slipped. Not his fault entirely, the talent around him was worse and that would affect the performance of any player. Like I said, I don’t think he was a bad player. But I damn sure think Hamilton’s opinion of his value is a lot different than the reality of the situation.

“Hamilton used “they.”  Hamilton did not specify who “they” were.  IMO, “they” were John Kuester and Pat Sullivan.”

Well, I guess with combining that comment, Ellis’s column linked above and Hamilton’s “I never had a problem with Kuester” comment, I’m inferring that ‘they’ meant the front office. I could be wrong, but that’s how I’m interpreting it. Rip has never shied away from giving his opinion about a coach. He was up front about not getting along with Curry. I think if he thought Kuester was leaking stuff about him, he would say that.

“The person or people who put out the allegations and tried to ruin Rip’s career, are the person or people who leaked the anonymous stories to the press.”

Tried to ruin his career is being a bit of a drama queen, no? People were trying to shift responsibility for a horrid organization/locker room. Varying levels of blame can be heaped on a lot of people, starting at the top. This happens in every losing environment in every sport. Stories get leaked. Players, coaches, execs have their names sullied by people with agendas and axes to grind. No one was trying to ruin his career, people were trying to save their own asses. Hamilton landed a great multi-year contract for a guard his age, pocketed some nice money on his buyout and is starting a title contender. His career is just fine.

In all honesty, Hamilton worked his channels too. I believe Terry Foster wrote a couple columns during the season where Hamilton was the obvious source. Everyone plays the game man.

“Patrick, I’m guessing you know who those people are.  Please enlighten us, and end the speculation.”

You are guessing wrong. I’m not a working journalist anymore. I’m not long out of the game, so I like to think I still have a connection or two that I trust to make my opinions somewhat informed, but it would be a lie to say that I have anything resembling sources.

“Sorry. I thought a member of the Detroit area media might actually be taking reponsibility for his  role in the Richard Hamilton debacle of last year.  My mistake.”

Haha … the media was responsible? Please. These are people responsible for the debacle: 1. Joe Dumars for giving Hamilton a ridiculous extension while also paying Ben Gordon and for not intervening when it was clear his coach couldn’t handle the personalities in the locker room 2a. John Kuester for being a spineless, horrible communicator who couldn’t manage said personalities 2b. Hamilton for playing half-assed, for hurting his team with unnecessary technical fouls and for helping cause a factioning among players in the locker room. The media reported what they could get people to talk about.

Did the whole story ever come out? No, but it never does. The team’s beat writers did an OK job of trying to piece together what they could in probably the league’s most dysfunctional environment. I mean, you can see obvious examples of the team’s spin to save face and you can find beat writers who did have actual locker room sources telling a different story than the team’s narrative. Ellis’ full stories linked to in that second link aren’t online anymore, but if you read it at the time, it was pretty clear he was talking to players as his sources.

“Therefore, I trust my own opinions concerning the Pistons’ player personnel more than Goodwill’s, regardless of how connected Goodwill claims to be.”

I certainly disagree with the analysis/conclusions of other writers all the time. But it’s an arrogant move, IMO, to question the actual reporting/sources without having real knowledge of that myself. It’s one thing to interview the same or similar sources and say, “that guy’s way off.” But minus the ability to do that, it’s hard for me to question the integrity of a journalist or say he’s misinformed by his sources.

Let’s for the sake of argument say that Rip’s heyday lasted from 03-04, when he led his championship team in scoring, until 07-08 when he was named to the all-star team the last time.

In 03-04, he was 7th among SGs in scoring, and among the top 7 scoring SGs, Rip’s FG% was 1st.

In 04-05, he was 8th among SGs in scoring, and among the top 8, he was 5th in FG%

In 05-06, he was 9th among SGs in scoring, and among the top 9, he was 2nd in FG%.

In 06-07, he was 9th among SGs in scoring, and among the top 9, he was 2nd in FG%.

In 07-08, Rip fell to 15th among SGs in scoring, but among the top 15, he was 2nd in FG%.

To me, this is pretty sold evidence that in his heyday, Rip was definitely a top 10 PG in the League.

From Hamilton’s quotes in the MLive article, it is NOT clear to whom Hamilton is referring  when he said:

“All the sources and allegations that they put out, it hurt me, because I thought as long as I lay it all on the line for an organization, regardless, they’ll always have your back,” Hamilton said. “I saw that wasn’t the case.”

Hamilton used “they.”  Hamilton did not specify who “they” were.  IMO, “they” were John Kuester and Pat Sullivan.

The person or people who put out the allegations and tried to ruin Rip’s career, are the person or people who leaked the anonymous stories to the press.  Patrick, I’m guessing you know who those people are.  Please enlighten us, and end the speculation.

Sorry. I thought a member of the Detroit area media might actually be taking reponsibility for his  role in the Richard Hamilton debacle of last year.  My mistake.

From the quality of Vince Goodwill’s articles, I do not have a great deal of respect for him as a knowledgable sports writer.  IMO, his articles are often misinformed, shallow and draw the wrong conclusions.  To be honest, I don’t even read his articles anymore, because I find the quality so poor.   Therefore, I trust my own opinions concerning the Pistons’ player personnel more than Goodwill’s, regardless of how connected Goodwill claims to be.

His best season was 05-06 when he shot 46 percent from three and averaged 20 a game. Guys who were definitely better than Hamilton then: Bryant, Wade, Ginobili, Michael Redd (pre-injuries), Ray Allen, Paul Pierce. Guys Hamilton was in the convo with at the time: Vince Carter, Joe Johnson, Iguodala, Jason Richardson. Honestly, I think all of those guys except Carter were a bit better at the time, but if we’re being generous, Rip at his peak was probably somewhere in the 7-11 range among SGs in the league. That’s a fantastic career, no doubt, but he was never the player he thought he was in his own mind.

“What is a “fringe all-star” player?”

A fringe all-star is someone who isn’t a given to be in the AS game every year. Hamilton was good enough to get in three times, but he also was never a guy considered a lock to make it the way a lot of other names mentioned above were in their careers.

“While I don’t think the Pistons organization disrespected Rip. I definitely think John Kuester and his coach staff disrespected Rip.”

Check Hamilton’s comments from last night. It’s clear he pins all of his ill-will on the front office, not the coaching staff.

“I think in his prime, Rip was an excellent player with excellent value.”

I’m not arguing this. But his prime was about four years ago. He’s still a useful player on the right team, but he’s not and hasn’t been the same player that made those AS teams for a couple seasons now.

“I’m glad  as a member of the media, you are finally admitting to scapegoating Rip.”

Whoa … that’s quite a leap. The media didn’t scapegoat Rip. I said the organization might have attempted to based on what was leaked.

But that isn’t to say Hamilton didn’t act like an asshole. Reporters are in the locker room. They are connected to sources on the court, sources on the coaching staff, people in the front office. Why do you feel you are more informed than someone like Goodwill, who is around the team every day, who travels with them, and who talks to the key people, to evaluate what was going on behind the scenes?

What is a “fringe all-star” player?  Is that a player who is only named to the all-star team three times, like Rip?

While I don’t think the Pistons organization disrespected Rip.  I definitely think John Kuester and his coach staff disrespected Rip.  In fact, I think they more than disrespected him; they tried to ruin his career.

I think in his prime, Rip was an excellent player with excellent value.  That’s why he led both his NCAA championship team and his NBA championship team in scoring. 

I’m glad  as a member of the media, you are finally admitting to scapegoating Rip.  That’s more than your buddy, Feldman, will admit to, and more than that idiot Goodwill will admit to.

My guess is Rip was directing his frustration toward the idiot coach who benched him 23 games in a row with no explaination.

It’s not like he’s handing out the contracts saying, “I promise to keep you here forever.” But Hamilton before and Prince now were both given more money/years here than they could’ve got elsewhere. You don’t do that if you aren’t comfortable keeping them. It’s not like Prince is making himself into more of an asset with that long-term deal and a balky knee. My guess is he’s here for the full four years, unless he’s a salary throw-in when the deal is close to expiring.