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A case study in what happens when your young players play smarter than your veterans

Late in the first half of Saturday’s loss to the Sixers, after he’d been thoroughly frustrated by how physical Philadelphia’s frontline had defended him, Greg Monroe absorbed a blow from Elton Brand (no call) and converted the layup while screaming something at the referee under the basket.

Monroe picked up a technical foul, one that I didn’t have a problem with, considering the pounding he was taking under the basket. Monroe is too good offensively and too active to not get more calls than he was. And Monroe was angry. He promptly went down on defense and stole the ball from Brand. My immediate thought was the Pistons would invoke the Rasheed Wallace rule and immediately go to Monroe in the post after picking up that technical and displaying so much anger.

Now, because Wallace was some kind of folk hero, the meme was always that he magically played so much better and more aggressive after picking up a tech. I don’t know if that was more legend than reality, but I love the idea of going immediately to any post player who picks up a tech after getting mauled inside. I don’t think Monroe would’ve magically started finishing better around the basket, but I do think there was a chance he would’ve got a call on at least one of those final two possessions of the half. If Monroe caught it, made an aggressive move and drew contact, I would bet he would’ve got that call at that point even if he hadn’t been earlier in the game. That’s just how referees are sometimes. They don’t like it when you berate them, but if it comes to that, they generally start paying a little more attention as long as you aren’t constantly trying to show them up, and Monroe doesn’t qualify as that type of guy.

Instead, the team went two straight possessions without Monroe so much as touching it, let alone catching it in a position to do anything with the ball. The player I expected to recognize that situation was Tayshaun Prince. He didn’t. Rodney Stuckey didn’t either.

In fact, both veteran players had several what you would call “youthful mistakes” in the game.

Stuckey spent much of the game matched up with Jodie Meeks. Meeks does one thing on offense: shoots threes. I lost count of how often Stuckey completely lost track of where Meeks was on defense. It was four times in the first half and one time early in the third quarter before I gave up on it. Meeks converted on 3 of 5 threes and passed up several more good looks. He was seriously open all night.

Prince’s performance was more troubling. His numbers weren’t good, but that’s somewhat forgivable since it was his first game back after a couple off and Andre Iguodala is a great defensive player.

The Pistons had two of their best performances of the season with Prince out of the lineup. The team’s official twitter feed was spouting off about Prince’s “veteran cool-headedness” being a missing ingredient in those games. He returned, the offense stagnated and they had one of their worst performances of the season in Friday’s loss. Making things worse, George Blaha said in the intro before the game that the Pistons had missed Prince because he was playing the best of anyone on the team before he had to miss two games. I get that the announcers have to put a positive spin on things, but that’s just blatantly false. In three games before Prince missed the last two, he shot 3-for-9, 6-for-14 and 5-for-13. Yes, he had that nice three-game stretch before that, but those games so far are an anomaly in what is turning into a very poor season for him shooting the ball.

Against Philly, he shot below 40 percent again, and many of his looks were clean ones. Against Philly, Stuckey played really lazy defense.

My issue is those two factors — missing badly on open shots and playing lazy defense — are things that got Austin Daye removed from the rotation. How Lawrence Frank responds when veteran players are guilty of the same things that young players do wrong will be interesting.

I don’t discount Joe Dumars’ reasons for re-signing Prince. I disagree with the price and length of the contract, but in general, I do agree that it’s a bad idea to throw a team full of young players together with no veteran presence in the locker room (see: Washington for examples of what could happen minus vets). I also have a lot of respect for Prince’s intelligence and knowledge of the game. I do, however, still have serious questions about how he fits in on this team. He’s happiest when he’s playing a lot. So far this season, he hasn’t played well. He’s also had injury issues, but because he likes to play a lot, he hasn’t missed much time or played fewer minutes as a result. Daye had his third straight decent game against Philly. What happens if Daye’s play demands that he gets more minutes and those minutes come at the expense of Prince? What happens if the Pistons continue to play their best when Prince is the least involved in their offense? Will Prince still be OK with his role, still be happy and engaged, if his minutes and role diminish?

Daye was the first reserve off the bench tonight and Damien Wilkins didn’t play until the game was far out of hand, so it looks like Daye has already earned back his rotation spot. Based on how poorly Prince has played overall this season, and how well Daye is now shooting it, if it keeps up, it won’t be long until Daye proves to be the better option over Prince at least offensively as well. I hope it happens simply because the Pistons have more to gain by Daye’s improvement than Prince getting 30+ minutes per game.

How Frank and Prince handle it will be very interesting.

Knight struggles with physical play

In two games this season against Philadelphia, Brandon Knight has shot 9-for-32 and has seven assists and six turnovers. It’s no secret how Philly defends him — they beat him up. Jrue Holiday and Lou Williams attack him on the perimeter, knowing that if Knight gets in the lane, they have shot blockers who can bother him. On those occasions when Knight did get inside, he ended up on the ground pretty frequently. Knight has exceeded expectations this season so far, but how he plays against more physical players is probably something he’s not going to be able to fix until he can get stronger in the offseason.

The Jason Maxiell is still alive tour continues

The Pistons have no shortage of highly paid players who have failed to meet expectations over the last few seasons. But while Rip Hamilton, Ben Gordon and Charlie Villanueva have had their share of defenders with theories as to how it was the offense/minutes/situations they were being used in that was hurting their games, Jason Maxiell had no such luxury.

An undersized, athletic hustle player who has never relied on plays being run for him, Maxiell has been a useful rotation player in the past as a result of his ability to out-run and out-jump people. Then he got a bit heavier, and he wasn’t so fast and he wasn’t jumping so high anymore. Predictably, his production dove over the last three seasons, and he looked like the player on the roster with the least hope of ever rebounding from that downward trend. Instead, he’s quietly putting together a really nice season. He shot 4-for-7 against Philly and grabbed seven rebounds. He’s played himself into shape after a poor start to the season and although he still does have the ability to make the athletic play, his jump shot from 10-feet and in has really improved as a weapon for him. If he keeps this up, there isn’t a contending team in the NBA who wouldn’t love to have a player like him on its roster.

It would be nice to see Vernon Macklin earlier than garbage time

Vernon Macklin isn’t exactly a “prospect” considering his draft position, age for a rookie and limited skillset. But in the few garbage time minutes he’s received this season, he’s hustled, ran the floor and has a pulse. With Maxiell playing well and Jonas Jerebko in need of minutes, it’s hard to justify getting Macklin into a game when it’s not out of reach at the moment, but the Pistons have a tough stretch coming up over the next few weeks, including their first back-to-back-to-back of the season, so perhaps Macklin can spell Ben Wallace for a few minutes coming up?

When Doug Collins coached the Pistons in the 1990s, he used to start Don Reid, who was terrible, at center. But Reid played hard, gave the Pistons a few minutes early, and then was never seen again most games. With Wallace surely in need of a night off at some point over this stretch, maybe Frank can employ a similar strategy with Macklin, just to see whether he’s completely over-matched by starting caliber players or whether he shows any kind of ability. The odds against Macklin becoming a legit NBA player are slim, but the Pistons don’t have anything to lose by figuring out if he can beat those odds.

Just because not everything is so negative …

This was pretty funny, via Vincent Goodwill:

The kiss-cam: Stuckey sees him and Monroe on it, playfully kisses Greg on the head…

45 Comments

  • Jan 28, 20129:24 pm
    by jayg108

    Reply

    “the offense stagnated” has been Prince’s influence on the Pistons for the last few years.  It would be nice to see Frank give him less minutes.
     
    Or does Frank fear becoming a “buffoon”?

    • Jan 28, 20129:32 pm
      by Mark

      Reply

      Agree 110%

    • Jan 28, 20129:34 pm
      by jayg108

      Reply

      I like Prince’s defense and intelligence, but he doesn’t fit in with the rest of team.  The guards on the floor seem to lose their natural offensive talents with him on the floor.

      • Jan 28, 201210:00 pm
        by Patrick Hayes

        Reply

        Yeah, Knight and Stuckey both get passive and defer to him. Those two are far from perfect with the ball in their hands, but they’re at their best when they’re just diving inside at the basket recklessly. When they stand still, they are really easy to defend, and with Prince on the court, they stand still a lot.

  • Jan 28, 20129:32 pm
    by Mark

    Reply

    “Instead, the team went two straight possessions without Monroe so much as touching it, let alone catching it in a position to do anything with the ball. The player I expected to recognize that situation was Tayshaun Prince. He didn’t. Rodney Stuckey didn’t either.”

    You expected Tayshaun to pass to Monroe? Has he ever?

    Prince’s performance was pathetic. I can excuse the rest of the players somewhat due to going all out last night in OT. But for Prince to come in here off like 5 days rest, stagnate the offense, and give up a triple-double to Iguodala through 3 Qtrs (!) is disgusting.

    There should be no doubt in anyone’s mind, esp Dumars/Frank, that we are better off w/o his slefish, lazy ass. The fact Dumars/Frank can’t see it is quite disturbing.

    • Jan 28, 20129:38 pm
      by jayg108

      Reply

      Wow.  I guess you’ve had enough of Prince.  selfish lazy ass.  lol
       
      Don’t you get the feeling that Prince stats (like that Iggy’s triple double) will be overlooked and left unmentioned?  Why else has he been allowed to play so many minutes?

      • Jan 28, 20129:44 pm
        by Mark

        Reply

        yep, Prince is the golden princess of the Palace. He can do no wrong, and the contract extensions will keep coming.

        It makes no sense why he is allowed to start and eat up so many min. It wouldn’t make sense on a contender, and certainly doesn’t make sense on the 2nd worst team in the league, when you have young guys behind him who could be using that PT as exp.

        But trying to apply logic to the ’09-’12 era Pistons is a waste of time.

  • Jan 28, 20129:39 pm
    by gmehl1977

    Reply

    On a positive note, check out those standings. 2nd worst in the league and a choice of Davis or Drummond. Things could be worse…or record could have a few extra wins on it.

    • Jan 28, 20129:53 pm
      by Patrick Hayes

      Reply

      I’m all about Anthony Davis now man. Gotta stay away from those UConn centers.

      • Jan 29, 20123:44 am
        by gmehl1977

        Reply

        The only thing is Drummond has an NBA body right now but from what i have seen Davis has Daye’s metabolism. If he can hold his weight and we get the chance to pick him then yeah he looks like the real deal. I just hope Dumars and Frank do the wise thing with a month to go in the season and sends Monroe, Stuckey and Knight away for early off season surgery. You can see the foundation in this teams future coming together but they just need that game changer from the draft (insert Davis/Drummond). Then by any means necessary get rid of CV and BG.

      • Jan 29, 201210:59 am
        by vic

        Reply

        I would wait until March to decide on Drummond/ Davis.
        Right now they are 1a/1b to me. 

        if you look at the systems they play in, they are actually very similar in production. They both have 3-4 double double against quality competition.

    • Jan 28, 20129:55 pm
      by Lord Jesus Perm

      Reply

      Davis looks like a beast when he plays. Tremendous shot blocker/rebounder type. I think he’d be a perfect complement to Monroe. Drummond has a world of upside, but there’s something……off when I watch him. I realize that he’s raw on offense, but he doesn’t dominate on the defensive end like Davis does.

      • Jan 28, 20129:59 pm
        by Patrick Hayes

        Reply

        Davis looks a lot like young Marcus Camby did in college. Love watching that guy.

  • Jan 28, 20129:39 pm
    by jayg108

    Reply

    he’s babied like a golden child

  • Jan 28, 20129:49 pm
    by frankie d

    Reply

    good post.  thanks for saying lots of things that need to be said.
    on tay…
    tay is a victim of the peter principle.
    he’s been elevated to the level of his incompetence.
    he is, and always should be, a 4th or 5th option.  maybe…just maybe he could be a third option with the right squad..  attempting to make him the core offensive player on the team, or one of the core offensive players, will result in exactly what has happened the last couple of years.
    unfortunately, it is tough, if not impossible to see tay taking a step back into the complimentary role, that he’d filled with the title team.  as an elder statesman, he seems to believe, along with management, that he is the offense’s hub, its leader.
    big mistake. and an example of the peter principle in action. 
    and after watching the team play with and without him, it is clear they play better without him.
    hopefully, it won’t take joe d an entire season to realize that…
    on that note, i’m not too hopeful.

    • Jan 28, 20129:58 pm
      by Patrick Hayes

      Reply

      Yeah. They’re not good without him, but the ball moves way better and the overall energy of the team is so much better.

      And the problem is, even though Prince is still useful on the right team in the right situation, the fact that he’s miscast in big minutes on this team is only going to drive his production off a cliff, thus making his contract another albatross.

  • Jan 28, 20129:50 pm
    by Lord Jesus Perm

    Reply

    “I don’t discount Joe Dumars’ reasons for re-signing Prince. I disagree with the price and length of the contract, but in general, I do agree that it’s a bad idea to throw a team full of young players together with no veteran presence in the locker room.”

    I’d agree with this if Prince were a guy that was a legit veteran presence, if he were a Ben Wallace type that was taking guys under his wing; however, that doesn’t seem to fit Tay. He didn’t seem to be much of a leader last year when he was bashing John Keuster as a buffoon or skipping a shoot-around, though. I’ve read little that suggests that he’s some positive locker room presence this year, either. Compare that to Ben Wallace, who seems to have taken Monroe under his wing, and who’s been providing encouragement to a player who was, until very recently that is, slumping in Austin Daye. I think that the resigning is problematic because it not only eats up salary and makes it more difficult for younger guys like Daye to get PT, but because it was a move that did the Pistons little to no good from both a basketball or a morale standpoint. Given that, I’m in 100% agreement with your ending conclusion: that Prince doesn’t fit well with this team at all. At this point, it’d be downright foolish for Daye not to take some of Prince’s minutes. He’s been solid as of late, and the Pistons can only gain from having a still young player grow and develop.

    • Jan 28, 20129:56 pm
      by Patrick Hayes

      Reply

      Yeah. I don’t think Prince is a bad guy at all. He’s just a worker. Shows up, does his job (and he’s done it an acceptable level when he’s been in the correct role), goes home.

      Great point on Wallace/Daye too, and something I hadn’t thought about. If Prince was signed to be a transitional veteran leader, shouldn’t he have been the guy going to Daye to help him get his head right and break out of that slump? Instead, it was the guy who has probably taken 20 jumpers in his 16 years in the league.

  • Jan 28, 20129:59 pm
    by Mark

    Reply

    Daye should’ve been rewarded for his 28 pt game by getting the start against ATL, and kept his confidence up.

    Instead they started Wilkins who scored 0 pts in 34 min, and all that confidence Daye had seems to have shrivled away. SMH

    • Jan 28, 201210:10 pm
      by Patrick Hayes

      Reply

      Honestly, I don’t think his confidence has shriveled away. He’s still shooting the ball well and looks completely different now from the start of the season. As long as he’s in the rotation playing 20-25 minutes a game, that’s good enough for now.

      I’m all for him earning a starting job if he continues to play well, but remember, that good performance against Miami was preceded by 20 percent shooting and overall passive play over the first few weeks of the season. I’m glad he’s turned a corner, but he still has a ways to go to prove he can be consistent.

  • Jan 28, 201210:03 pm
    by Jodi Jezz

    Reply

    We need a go-to guy if we plan on being a good team…Dumars needs to trade for Beasley and let Daye play as 6th man…We need someone who can give you 18-20pts per night and that’s what Beasley can give you…Stop pussyfooting in front office Dumars…

    • Jan 28, 201210:07 pm
      by Patrick Hayes

      Reply

      Beasley is a go-to guy?! The dude is an inefficient scorer, plays zero defense and is a head case. Minnesota has played much better with Beasley out of its lineup. The only thing good Beasley would bring to Detroit is his expiring contract.

      • Jan 28, 201210:25 pm
        by Jodi Jezz

        Reply

        Beasley can score from anywhere on the floor and his defense isn’t that bad…We don’t have any player outside of Monroe that’s putting up big offensive numbers, Beasley could be that guy…Plus Beasley isn’t scared to shot the ball at the end of 4th quarters…Rasheed was a head case and he did fine while playing with the Pistons…

        • Jan 28, 201210:29 pm
          by Patrick Hayes

          Reply

          His issue on D is he’s not quick enough to guard SFs and not strong enough to guard PFs.

          Rasheed Wallace was a head case who was a fundamentally sound, great defensive big man. Those things win games. High usage/low efficiency wings like Beasley who never pass and don’t play good D are a dime a dozen. Beasley took 17 shots a game last season. Kevin Love, an infinitely better player, only got 13 shots a game. That tells me all I need to know about Mike Beasley.

        • Jan 29, 20124:55 pm
          by Max

          Reply

          Beas is probably the worst defender in the entire league other than Eddie Curry.

  • Jan 28, 201210:20 pm
    by frankie d

    Reply

    joe should have traded tay at the trade deadline last year.
    failing to do that, signing him this year was a tough choice, but one that was reasonable.  as long as he had a future trade in mind.  
    signing him and trading him this year, would be a good result.
    keeping him around for the contract’s duration, which seems to be joe’s intention, will not be a good result.

    • Jan 28, 201210:22 pm
      by Patrick Hayes

      Reply

      I’m of the belief that Dumars should’ve learned from the Rip Hamilton extension that signing someone with “a future trade in mind” is never a great idea.

  • Jan 28, 201210:34 pm
    by jayg108

    Reply

    Though it might have been a poor quality business move, signing Tayshaun showed that Dumars cares about his people.  Maybe he wanted Tayshaun to retire a Piston.  A lower more trade-able contract would have forced Tayshaun to test free agency eliminating the jersey retirement party in a few years.

    • Jan 29, 20124:01 am
      by gmehl1977

      Reply

      The NBA is a business and there is NO room for sentimental things like that. Joe’s first job is the pistons and then after that if he can then yeah look after guys that have given good service. If Joe can’t make the big/hard calls then maybe its time he moved on because it will no doubt hurt the team.

      • Jan 29, 20124:59 pm
        by Max

        Reply

        How you treat veteran players is cultural significant to the image of the franchise and Dumars, for example trading Billups to his team of choice, reflects well on the Pistons regarding how other players can expect to be treated here.   The Bulls for instance are still suffering from certain playing holding it against them that they prematurely broke up the Bulls and treated Pippen and Phil Jackson like shit.  I for one am very happy that Isiah, Dumars and Laimbeer retired as Pistons and I would like to see Prince do so as well.

        • Jan 30, 20124:58 am
          by gmehl1977

          Reply

          I agree but if it came down to making the team better or a player happy then it should always be team first. Look at what LeBron, Carmello and now Dwight did with there teams. Its a business at the end of the day and Joe is employed by the Pistons not Tayshaun Prince. For example if we got offered a 1st rounder by the Oklahoma for Prince then you would do it it without even thinking about it because that is the best thing for the Pistons. You obviously voice it with the player first and see what he thinks but you can’t make everyone happy. Players get over being traded and eventually realize that GMs do what they do to to put the team they are running in the best position possible. If Tay wants to retire a Piston then he will have to play up to his contract he was just given or dare i say even Joe will grow tired of his whiny a$$. He was brought back to lead the young guys and i must admit personally i think he was a bad choice to do that. He likes to play in a slow half court paced offense while it is clear that the young guys excel in a faster up tempo type game. I hope he can adjust and see what is best for the team cause 1 guy changing is easier than the whole team changing for 1 guy.

  • Jan 28, 201210:47 pm
    by Mike

    Reply

    Patrick, rumor has it that You’re indeed @dadboner on twitter. Also, everyone who has ever met Stuckey knows his love for the Weed. It shows in his game when he’s high, You guys.

    • Jan 28, 201211:26 pm
      by Patrick Hayes

      Reply

      LOL. Facts: I have given my friend a stone cold stunner, I am a dad and I do live close to Grand Blanc, but those are the only things I have in common with Mr. Welzein.

    • Jan 29, 20122:35 am
      by Mark

      Reply

      Stuckey’s a pothead? Had no idea. Even though he plays like one, he doesn’t really act like one. Probably why he wanted to play in POR so bad, lol.

      btw, do the PHI camera guys catch everything we do? Wasn’t PHI where T-Mac was caught laughing on the bench at Kuester last year? Now this, lol. 

      Stuckey was pretty busy tonight I guess. No joke when I was streaming the game online, it froze right when Stuckey was slapping a Sixer on the butt and his hand was stuck there for like 2 min, lol. Then he’s kisses Greg later on.

      Now we know the cause of his groin injury…..

  • Jan 28, 201211:51 pm
    by Shane

    Reply

    The fact of the matter is we need to rebuild our team like OKC did. Go young. Sure you may tank a few seasons (probably 2 more if we get at least a top 3 n a top 5 pick).. but at least we would be better off that way than this

    • Jan 28, 201211:57 pm
      by Shane

      Reply

      Oh on the bright side(if you consider this bright) we have the second worst record in the NBA. Only Charlotte has a worse record.

  • Jan 29, 20124:14 am
    by damian

    Reply

    all of that unwarranted weed smoke this offseason is killing players trying to get back into game shape. weed turned me into a three point shooter, i support it, stuckey needs a jumper.

  • Jan 29, 20129:10 am
    by bardztale

    Reply

    Black on red? Really!!? It’s so hard to read. I always end up selecting the entire article so it’s highlighted and I can read it.

    Great writing, however. Thanks and keep it up. You’re right, they need to go right back to Monroe after a tech. In fact, I’m looking for Frank to develop more plays where they run the offence through Monroe. He’s a future superstar. We all watch and hope Brandon will be our next Isaiah, but Greg – we can see it.

    This team will be great with experience and after acquiring a true center. Should be an interesting lottery.  :^)

  • Jan 29, 20121:11 pm
    by MrBlockedShot

    Reply

    Last game was a miserable one, I mean ,maybe the worst game of the season. We were lost both on offense and deffense. I couldn´t belive Philly’s shooters had so many open shots, again and again…I agree they´re so physical that it´s hard to score when you´re not so a talented player, but so many of our shots were open shots or layups…so it´s hard for me to buy that. However, no matter what, I think it was garbage time from second quarter on and we were luck y we didn´t get smashed for 30 points or more, cos the difference between Philly and us was abysmal on the court.  About Prince, I think he has no chemistry at all with the rest of the team on the court, neither has him this season nor last one. He only seems happy when he´s  playing 30-35 minutes, shooting 10-15 times per game and the offense almost runs through him. But we can afford that anymore. Last year he scored a lot and rebounded and played his best season in years. But someone has to realize he´s no longer the cornerstone in this team and he should take a step back. His new role shoulb be getting 20 minutes as much off the bench and helping youngsters to develop into nba caliber players. The team hasn´t missed him at all those last games and we have played probbaly our best basketball of the season. Now, he´s back again, he looks like he´s fighting alone, he´s not passing, he seems hopeless when Pistons are down and starts to get mad at himself or whoever. I hate that. Not a good reference for our youngsters, right?. I think he´s the opposite of Wallace in taking care of the youngsters. I can´t bare him when he starts complaining at everybody after shooting 30 minutes and scoring 30-35% of his shots..
     

  • Jan 29, 20121:34 pm
    by gordbrown

    Reply

    No secret what was going on last night. Players were tired. They looked tired, they played tired. I agree that the Pistons need to go deeper in the bench to survive this back to back to back. Unfortunately, the bench is pretty decimated with injuries. But it will be intersting to see how they react and what rotations look like. I would actually be OK to sacrifice two games to come away with at least one win.

  • Jan 29, 20125:09 pm
    by Max

    Reply

    I don’t know why exactly that anyone should be suspicious of Prince’s attitude regarding ceding his starting role as he has always been much better than his backups in the past and small forward during his time here has traditionally been the position with the least depth until the drafting of Daye, Jerebko and Summers.
    Prince’s numbers have been down this year and he has struggled a bit with health and getting into playing shape—-I think 75 to 80 percent of the league’s players have so far failed to get into proper playing shape and many of them won’t all season.    However, Daye and Jerebko have not yet made a great argument for themselves to beat him out yet and Frank said he would make decisions about starting roles over at least 5 game stretches so it wouldn’t have made sense for him to start Daye based on a game or two.   Further, as Prince was the normal starter, I think Frank started Wilkins after Daye’s 28 because he’d rather build up Daye in the role he’ll probably continue to play than as a starter.
    I missed the 76s game, my first missed game of the year and it sounds like I was better off.

  • Jan 29, 20125:11 pm
    by Max

    Reply

    @Gordbrown…..didn’t see the game but I can believe it.   I’ve seen games this year where great team defenses like the Celtics just stopped defending for certain stretches because they are too tired to move and they just let players go right to the basket or take open jumpers,

  • Jan 29, 20125:12 pm
    by Max

    Reply

    Though maybe the Celts don’t play great team D anymore.

  • Jan 29, 20126:51 pm
    by Max

    Reply

    BTW: OFF TOPIC
    There are indications in Hoopshype today that Kamen, who I don’t want at all but others do, might be simply bought out by the hornets soon; giving him the ability to become a free agent midseason and join whoever he wants.

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