↓ Login/Logout ↓
Schedule/Results
↓ Roster ↓
Salaries
↓ Archives ↓
↓ About ↓

I always imagined saying goodbye to Richard Hamilton would be difficult

“I never had an issue with Coach Kuester.” Richard Hamilton

When the Pistons bought out Richard Hamilton, I knew I should write something about his legacy in Detroit. For better or worse – and most of the time, better – Hamilton impacted the Pistons greatly in his nine years with the team, and I wanted to explore that in a post.

I just couldn’t.

I opened blank documents a few times, but my fingers wouldn’t type. There was no emotional connection to Hamilton anymore.

I rationalized that it was because I had already written his Pistons postmortem – a year ago. If you want to read about Hamilton’s ups and downs in Detroit, read that.

But yesterday, when I read this post’s lead quote – “I never had an issue with Coach Kuester” something finally kicked in:

Disdain.

I have really grown to dislike the image of Hamilton I see. That Hamilton is rude, conniving and fake.

I know that’s unreasonable. I understand there’s a large side of him I’m not privy to. I want to make clear there very well could be a difference between the Hamilton I see and the real Hamilton.

But I also hope he sees what he’s doing, how he alienated all but the most loyal fans he had left in Detroit.

Rip is aging. That’s a tough reality for anyone, especially someone who relies on his body for a living. I empathize will Hamilton. I really do. His response to that, though, is to teleport into some alternate universe.

I wish I lived in Hamilton’s fantasy land, a place where the only thing keeping him from elite production is playing time, where players didn’t age and where he never had issues with John Kuester. I want to like Hamilton again.

He’s arguably the worst player to lead a championship team in scoring since the NBA began calling itself the NBA. He certainly had the worst points per game average of any such player in the last 60 years. And I mean it as an absolute compliment.

In and around Detroit, we don’t mind doing things the hard way. We just like when things work. Hamilton’s mid-range game was the hard way. Few players zig and zag around the court, around screen after screen, like Hamilton did at his peak. It was awesome. And it was inefficient. Hamilton would have been much better served developing his 3-point range, where baskets are worth 50 percent more points than his long jumpers. But it worked, and I loved Hamilton for it.

I really wish we could all go back to that time, but I don’t live with Hamilton in his fantasy land. All I see is him trying to shirk responsibility for what wrong in Detroit, a toxic situation created in large part because of his attitude.

That the Pistons brought back Tayshaun Prince, a free agent, and dumped Hamilton, who had $19 million left guaranteed on his contract, should tell you a lot about how untenable the situation had become. Like I said, I made my peace a  year ago with Hamilton’s end with the Pistons.

So, as Detroit moves on without him, I just don’t feel that different. The Rip I grew up watching has been gone for a couple years now.

I hope Hamilton finds that Rip in Chicago. Playing for a contender, especially one with Derrick Rose at point guard, will mean HOAM should show up more often. There will be plenty of nights Hamilton makes the Pistons look foolish for dropping him, even though his effort probably wouldn’t have been the same for them.

But I just don’t think Hamilton will find happiness in Chicago, or anywhere else, until he stops blaming everyone else and accepts that age is chiefly responsible for his decline. Few athletes age gracefully and watching closely those who don’t is unsettling.

I still yearn for the charismatic Rip, always smiling, punching his teammates before games. I just don’t see him returning – and I’m sick of watching this player I no longer like, quietly wishing his attitude could somehow just flip back in time a few years.

Enjoy Chicago, Rip. Thanks for making the end easy to handle.

75 Comments

  • Dec 16, 201112:53 pm
    by Steve K

    Reply

    I agree with much of what you say, Dan.

    I just can’t say I’m surprised with Rip’s quote about Kuester. I don’t think he’s trying to live in a fantasy world. I just think he’s taking the high road… being political about it. “I never had a problem”? Sure. Nobody will believe that. But it’s better than beating that dead Kuester horse.

    In that battle, Hamilton and Kuester both lost. As did the fans.

    • Dec 16, 20111:06 pm
      by Dan Feldman

      Reply

      Steve, to me, taking the high road is accepting some responsibility for what happened — not denying a dispute than everyone know happened.

      • Dec 16, 20112:18 pm
        by Steve K

        Reply

        Good point. Maybe denial is Hamilton’s version of the high road!

      • Dec 17, 20119:14 am
        by detroitpcb

        Reply

        Feldman, you are a stupid moral prig. You should stick to basketball and numbers and leave life and emotion alone because you obviously know nothing about them.

        • Dec 17, 20119:25 am
          by Patrick Hayes

          Reply

          Ugh. See the comment to Jason below and follow suit. Seriously, not gonna have these discussions all season. Criticize the argument. But you don’t know Dan, or anyone else on this site for that matter, so keep the personal judgements to yourself.

  • Dec 16, 20111:06 pm
    by Laser

    Reply

    Said it before, saying it again: There are too many variables to say it’s just his age and call it a day. I blame the system more than anything else; not enough reliable bigs to set good screens, nobody willing and able to hit him where he wants the ball. Hell, he and Gordon had strikingly similar numbers last year if I recall correctly. Yeah he has a particular style of play that requires a particular setup around him, and yeah he’s never been good enough to set up a system just for him, but it works when you happen to have those pieces. But to ignore the fact that The Real Rip left town around the same time as Chauncey makes no sense.

    Furthermore, the debate just became a total waste of time, since we’ll have as good a concrete answer as we’re getting now that he’s a Bull. He doesn’t get any more excuses as far as I’m concerned. I wish he handled things better and that he had a better attitude, bur he’s not the jackass who thought three shooting guards makes for a rad backcourt.

    PS his bullshit about no bad blood, just because he made no public comments a out Kuester or whatever his hogwash excuse is, makes me sick too. The bit about playing time also serves a dual purpose: It sends the message that Chicago better play him big minutes, and it avoids having to throw Joe under the bus, considering the biggest factor in his decline in production is most likely incompatibility with two other shooting guards in an overcrowded perimeter. He’s a stubborn little baby. I just won’t assume he can’t play basketball anymore.

    • Dec 16, 20111:19 pm
      by Murph

      Reply

      “PS his bullshit about no bad blood, just because he made no public comments a out Kuester or whatever his hogwash excuse is, makes me sick too.”

      So what should Hamilton have said?  “John Kuester was an idiot who had no idea what he was doing, and alienated a good number of players on the team, with his incompetence and lack of communication?”

      Would that statement, as true as it is, have made anyone feel better about Hamilton?  Not likely.

      I admire Hamilton for not ripping Kuester, Joe and the Pistons organization on his way out the door. 

      • Dec 16, 20114:11 pm
        by Laser

        Reply

        It’s a bald faced lie. That’s my problem. Whatever happened to “No comment. It’s in the past.” ??? I don’t care what his reasoning is, it’s public knowledge that he feuded with the coach. He was a co-captain, highest paid, longest tenured, and he got benched for weeks. Give me a break.

        • Dec 16, 20114:37 pm
          by Dan Feldman

          Reply

          Yeah, I basically agree. Some version of no comment, not a lie, would have been the high road

    • Dec 16, 20115:55 pm
      by rick77

      Reply

      Wow the haters gonna hate! He is gone people need to get over themselves seriously. I will always remember how we won a title with dude and not Stackhouse, who I loated Joe D for trading. How can you get mad at a backcourt that did all those wonderful things for us. Because we live in a society that is prisoner to the moment, kinda like Skip Bayless and his Tim Tebow afinity. Who cares what Rip thinks he is not in Detroit anymore so it would be nice to hear about guys actually playing for the Pistons and not about how someone sounds like a jilted lover who can’t get over the breakup. I mean if this guy wrote this last year why rehash old wounds?

  • Dec 16, 20111:13 pm
    by Murph

    Reply

    Another mindless hatchet piece.  Why Detroit sports writers continue to most blame Hamitlon for the debacle of the last few years is beyond me.  Kuester, Curry and Dumars are far more responsible for the Piston’s decline than Hamiton.  Get over it and move on.  That’s what Hamitlon is doing.

    • Dec 16, 20111:19 pm
      by Bo Bradly

      Reply

      Murph, this IS Dan getting over it and moving on. He made that pretty clear.
      Everyone was responsible for the problems the past few years, as you stated…I just think we would all appreciate RIP taking responsibility for his role. That’s all.
       

      • Dec 16, 20114:15 pm
        by Laser

        Reply

        No it isn’t. Murph is right. The only detail he’s missing is that no coach on earth could have managed this mess to a playoff berth. So blame Joe, move on, and judge how washed up Rip is by his performance gong forward, now that he is on an actual professional basketball team.

    • Dec 16, 201111:18 pm
      by Patrick Hayes

      Reply

      Hatchet piece = opinion that is different from your own. Got it.

      • Dec 17, 20116:54 am
        by Murph

        Reply

        “Hatchet piece = opinion that is different from your own. Got it.”

        No….hatchet piece=trying to unfairly scapegoat Hamitlon for the debacle for the last 3 years, while willfully ignoring and sugar coating Dumars’ bad coaching hires,  bad trades and bad free agent signings.

        If the Detroit media types, from Langlois to Goodwill to Feldman and Hayes…if those guys really wanted honesty, and straighforewardness they’d hold Joe Dumars’ feet to the fire…not use Richard Hamlton as a convenient scapegoat.

        • Dec 17, 20119:26 am
          by Patrick Hayes

          Reply

          Where in this piece did he say Hamilton was responsible for the last three years?

          • Dec 17, 201111:52 am
            by Murph

            Yeah?  When have you jokers ever written one story, just one, torching John Kuester for his last two seasons?  Or when have you ever written a story torching Dumars for his disasterous personnel decisions over the last 3 1/2 years? 
            Who’s being honest with whom here?  Certainly not you two…or Vince Goodwill. 

            But from the looks of the comments, your readers aren’t really buying your propaganda about Hamilton.
             

          • Dec 17, 201112:22 pm
            by Patrick Hayes

            “When have you jokers ever written one story, just one, torching John Kuester”

            Right. No one ever wrote anything blaming Kuester. Never let facts get in the way of an argument. And seriously, John Kuester not being a good coach has been mentioned dozens of times in posts on this site. Certainly in many of the game recaps last season.

            As for what our readers are ‘buying,’ I’m not all that worried about it. If people didn’t like what we did here, people wouldn’t read as often as they do and the site wouldn’t continuously grow. One thing I’ve never been able to figure out: why do you read? If you don’t like what we write here, go find somewhere else to comment. I certainly don’t spend my time commenting on sites where I think the writers suck. I honestly can’t fathom why you and a few others seem to do exactly that here.

            Oh, and further, if Kuester had publicly said after joining the Lakers that he and Hamilton never had any conflicts, believe that there would be a post ripping those comments here as well. But to my knowledge, Kuester has not commented on Hamilton since leaving the Pistons.

             

          • Dec 17, 20113:21 pm
            by Murph

            I see Patrick is back to his snotty old self again.  That didn’t take long.

            So those two articles are supposed to be examples of how you held Kuester accountable?  You don’t think you were too hard on him do you, with quotes like:

            “it’s extremely difficult to deliver news to people that they won’t take well. It just makes Kuester a poor coach.”

            “The bottom line is good coaches are willing to take responsibility for the tough decisions they make, not just publicly, but behind closed doors, and Kuester wasn’t willing to take that responsibility.”

            “Kuester missed the chance to put his stamp on the team and wrest a bit more influence away from the powerful locker room vets.  Instead, he tried to take the easy way out in order to avoid a confrontation.”

            When you people write a story about Kuester’s awful rotations, awful defense, awful plays…and awful record, let me know.

            Meanwhile, your sight rips Hamitlon up on side and down the other for some bland, non-committal response, in an attempt to defect the question. That’s not objective journalism; it’s a biased hatchet-job, if you ask me. 

            And more to the point, the incident occurred almost a year ago and Hamilton is no longer even on the team.  Get over it.

          • Dec 17, 20113:29 pm
            by Patrick Hayes

            Apology accepted.

    • Dec 16, 201111:19 pm
      by Patrick Hayes

      Reply

      Oh, also, Charles Jenkins sends his regards.

      • Dec 17, 20116:55 am
        by Murph

        Reply

        Oh please…has Charles Jenkins played an game yet?…even an exhibition game?

  • Dec 16, 20111:20 pm
    by Michelob Mike

    Reply

    I doubt Rip’s declined much due to age, at least not yet, because his game isn’t predicated on athleticism (other than speed, which I believe he still has). You’re seriously saying he’s done because of what took place in Det the last few years? Last time I checked, no one thrived in that ‘system,’ if you can even call it that. I fully expect Rip to return to form this year.

    • Dec 16, 20114:21 pm
      by Laser

      Reply

      Amen. Rip is a popular scapegoat, and he probably would have avoided a lot of malice if he just shut up, put his head down, did his job, and collected more money annually than most of us will see in our lives. But he’s always been a competitor and had a chip on his shoulder, and he was probably just as fed up as I was. But don’t tell Feldman that. He doesn’t want to hear it. I think it’s just easier to say it’s all Rip’s fault than to actually point the finger at the culprit for all this team’s woes, because that man is Joe Dumars, and we have to keep pretending he deserves a job for some reason.

    • Dec 16, 201110:54 pm
      by Patrick Hayes

      Reply

      “his game isn’t predicated on athleticism”

      It is certainly predicated on speed and strength, two things that can be impacted by age.

  • Dec 16, 20111:53 pm
    by ASwede

    Reply

    During the lockout I went back and relived some old games from 2004-2008. It was great. Rip was great! And I find myself still reading all the news about the Pistons, Chauncey, McDyess, Sheed (if any) because of the emotional ties. But I also realize that I’m not interested in what happens to Rip. I was really dissapointed last your about his attitude and I do believe he is much to blame for the lack of chemistry that made the season so awful. In a sense I feel sad I don’t care, because I used to, but I agree with the original post – I parted with Rip a while ago and I’m not sad the Pistons are too.

    RIP, Rip.

  • Dec 16, 20112:12 pm
    by tayshaun

    Reply

    i dont agree with a lot of this. you point out that he has aged but last hear he played about 7min less than his usual. he still had some good games but more inconsistency in the shots that seem easy for him. i feel rip is a system player that has to have almost everything fit his style to make him productive. i feel his attitude changed once his friend chauncey left and did not really understand joe d’s direction. fans now seem to hate and disrespect rip for 2-3 years of reduced play and poor attitude, but dont appreciate the development and further consistency he displayed as a below average player in washington to a 20 point efficient scorer that did not hog the ball and take impossible shots. As pistons fans we have been spoiled from about 02 when we assumed conference finals or bust, unfortunately that era did not last as long but we still should appreciate all the efforts rip made to the team and city.

    • Dec 16, 201111:17 pm
      by Patrick Hayes

      Reply

      Again, I think you can be appreciative of everything the team/organization accomplished and still be critical in certain instances. I wish Hamilton’s Pistons career ended in a more dignified way. But it didn’t, and Hamilton is partially to blame for that, even if there were other things outside of his control contributing to it.

  • Dec 16, 20113:22 pm
    by frankie d

    Reply

    it is curious that rip’s decline is attributed mainly to age.
    funny, when i saw him play the last couple of years, he looked pretty much like the same guy he had always been.  maybe a little bit less disciplined on his cuts, not quite as precise, but essentially doing most of the same things.  in fact, if you check  his numbers, they are remarkably similar to what he had always done.  (check it out for 36 minutes per game at basketball reference.  considering that stats are often cited extensively, i’m surprised that certain assertions are not backed up with numbers.)
    what happened to rip is pretty simple: joe dumars made an absolute mess of the roster and rip was one of the employees most negatively impacted by his ridiculous moves.  the pic of gordon and rip in the linked post from a year ago says it all.  neither player looks happy.  both are wondering what the heck is going on.  signing gordon with rip here, with that contract was incomprehensible.
    whose fault is that?  clearly it is the fault of joe dumars.
    now, rip did not handle it well.  he’s acted like a baby often.  the technicals have been ridiculous.  in fact, i agree with the analysis regarding the internal team dynamics.  the pistons were always a delicately balanced team, emotionally, and when the rock – chauncey – was removed, it all fell apart.
    but it is up to the boss – joe d – to understand the emotional make-up of his team and take those things into consideration before making his moves. in retrospect, it is almost comical to consider that he moved chauncey out – rock solid chauncey, the guy who kept things on an even keel, the leader – and brought in AI as his replacement.
    AI?  AI?  Really?  the guy who…well, i won’t dog him out now, but stability and solidity aren’t descriptions you would use for AI.
    anyone in any work place would feel pretty much the same way that rip felt.  you’ve been a valued, loyal employee.  you’ve just been given a huge raise.  then the boss brings in someone – AI-  essentially to do your job, and then basically tells you to suck it up and make it work.  and then he brings in another guy – gordon – to do your job.  and you are supposed to make it work.
    how?  the two of you are trying to use the same desk, the same computer, the same phones…how the heck are two employees supposed to reconcile the fact that they are trying to both do a job that is designed for one person.
    no, rip’s demise was all about joe dumars. dumars gave rip that extension that was immediately criticized as being too expensive.  dumars traded chauncey and brought in AI.  dumars signed gordon.  dumars refused to trade rip prior to signing gordon and as became obvious, his leverage for getting anything for rip evaporated immediately as every gm in the league knew that he would eventually have to somehow, someway dump rip because of that ridiculous contract he gave gordon.
    again, this is not to excuse rip’s childish conduct.  he acted like an a@@.   but to downplay management’s role in creating the dysfunctional environment is simply not historically accurate.  if a particular class in a school is troublesome, i blame the teacher and administration, rather than a difficult student.
    and, yes, i will predict that rip is going to make dumars and all of his critics look very, very bad.   as i imagine, assuming that he stay healthy, that rip is going to return to near all-star form.
    rip’s critics seem to forget that he made clutch shots in college to win an ncaa title.  he made clutch shots in the nba to win an nba title.  he’ll continue to make clutch shots as he helps chicago go for an nba title.
    as anyone who plays pick up ball knows, the ability to hit shots is the one thing that never leaves.  we’ve all seen the near-crippled old guy who can barely get up and down the court, but who will torch you if you leave him alone for a second.  the idea that rip has suddenly lost his ability to shoot, or to function, is very curious, considering how shooters work, and the very nature of rip’s game.  it will be both fun – and tortuous, as a pistons’ fan – to watch.
     

    • Dec 16, 20114:41 pm
      by Dan Feldman

      Reply

      “(check it out for 36 minutes per game at basketball reference.  considering that stats are often cited extensively, i’m surprised that certain assertions are not backed up with numbers.”

      Hamilton’s points per 36 minutes the last three years, in order: 19.4, 19.3, 18.7. His field-goal percentages the last two years were easily his lowest since coming to Detroit.

      • Dec 16, 20115:08 pm
        by frankie d

        Reply

        whoopdeedoo!
        yea, his field goal percentage fell.  that is easily understood.  he didn’t play with a point guard for the last few years.  since chauncey left.  and when tmac did take over the point guard duties, rip was on the bench for the most part.  no question, he  took more shots out of his comfort range than he ever had during his entire career.
        even considering that fact – and it is conceded, as he took some horrible shots and basically played a very unrip-like, undisciplined game – his numbers were right up there with what he’s done his whole career.
        using that 36 minute metric is sometimes not accurate, especially with young guys cause you never know how they will play with increased minutes.  however, with rip, looking at his numbers over 36 minutes basically takes him into his normal range.  and what you see is that his numbers – with minor or easily explainable variations – are pretty much consistent with his entire career.

        • Dec 16, 201110:53 pm
          by Patrick Hayes

          Reply

          Well, you’re also leaving out injuries. Hamilton was much, much more injury prone the last three years than early in his career, which is another sign that his age and the beating his slight frame has taken over the years could be contributing to that decline in shooting percentage.

  • Dec 16, 20113:51 pm
    by Anthony Avenuel

    Reply

    Dan, great piece.  Well written and fair in my opinion, but FYI – 3 point baskets are worth 50% more than 2 pointers; not the 150% you state in the article.

    • Dec 16, 20114:36 pm
      by Dan Feldman

      Reply

      Thanks for the catch. Should have been 150 of or 50 percent more. Fixed now.

  • Dec 16, 20114:24 pm
    by Laser

    Reply

    It’s nice to see the majority of commenters so far recognize that when you put a system player into a non-system that is completely devoid of all the elements that facilitated that player’s success, you can’t expect him to excel. Period.

    • Dec 16, 20114:31 pm
      by frankie d

      Reply

      laser,
      very nicely – and succinctly – put.
      what i find amusing, however, is how so many are so quick to essentially absolve dumars of his role in the fiasco.
      it is almost as though rip was responsible for the entire range of moves that have put the team in the hole it currently occupies.  as though rip had taken over joe’s role and made all of the ridiculous moves he has made.
       
       

      • Dec 16, 20115:21 pm
        by Laser

        Reply

        Even referring to Joe’s “role” as such is deflecting some amount of blame. Joe is 100% responsible for everything that’s gone wrong with this team. There have been numerous bogus excuses over the years (bad luck, injuries, infighting, the team’s pending sale, etc.) but now that the dust has settled, here we have it: The same bullshit team we’ve been losing with for years, plus a few draft picks anybody can acquire by being awful. Joe has been the worst GM in the league over the last five years by a wide margin. But it’s virtually impossible to shake a reputation, no matter how has Joe works to destroy his. Sigh. This team’s collapse since 2008 is unprecedented and entirely on his shoulders. I want to punch him in the face.

        • Dec 16, 20115:53 pm
          by Dan Feldman

          Reply

          Saying it’s unprecedented shows your ignorance.

          • Dec 16, 20116:35 pm
            by frankie d

            can you point to another team similar to the pistons from 2003-2008 that had such a precipitous collapse?
            without some type of injury of free agent issue?
            actually, i checked and i cannot find another such team  since the magic/bird era.
            not the old celts, not the old lakers, not chicago, not the old pistons, not houston, not the newer lakers or the recent spurs.
            none of them.
            the pistons are THE only title team that enjoyed sustained success that tumbled so quickly solely because of voluntary personnel moves by its management.
            if i’ve missed a team or a circumstance, i’d certainly like to know which team i’ve missed.
            the only team that i’ve seen that came close was the spurs in the ’90′s which went from a playoff team that went deep into the playoffs then fell off and had a disasterous season, because david robinson got hurt.  the  houston rockets, post-title years ran out of gas with 15 year vets in akeem and barkley.
            the lakers are about the closest analogy, but kobe and shaq forced management’s hand, and that was certainly not the case when joe started dismantling his team.
            but i haven’t found a single team that followed the pistons’ disasterous path.
            again, if you know of one, please identify it.

      • Dec 16, 201110:49 pm
        by Patrick Hayes

        Reply

        “it is almost as though rip was responsible for the entire range of moves that have put the team in the hole it currently occupies.”

        Give me a break. Rip is responsible for, individually, acting like an ass sometimes. He’s responsible for saying he “never had an issue” with Kuester when his issues with Kuester were distracting and well-documented. Hamilton didn’t put the team together. He’s not the sole reason the team was bad the last few years. Others certainly deserve varying levels of blame for their roles in this mess. But he also didn’t help matters with his attitude. I don’t blame Hamilton for what went wrong in Detroit, and I’m appreciative for the many good moments he provided. But I don’t have any problem whatsoever saying he was a malcontent, and a highly paid one at that.

  • [...] I always imagined saying goodbye to Richard Hamilton would be difficult By Dan Feldman • 12:36 pm • December 16, 2011 “I never had an issue with Coach Kuester.” –Richard Hamilton When the Pistons bought out Richard Hamilton, I knew I should write something about his legacy in Detroit. For better or worse – and most of the time, better – Hamilton impacted the Pistons greatly in his nine years with the team, and I wanted to explore that in a post. I just couldn’t. I opened blank documents a few times, but my fingers wouldn’t type. There was no emotional connection to Hamilton anymore. I rationalized that it was because I had already written his Pistons postmortem – a year ago. If you want to read about Hamilton’s ups and downs in Detroit, read that. But yesterday, when I read this post’s lead quote – “I never had an issue with Coach Kuester” – something finally kicked in: Disdain. I have really grown to dislike the image of Hamilton I see. That Hamilton is rude, conniving and fake. I know that’s unreasonable. I understand there’s a large side of him I’m not privy to. I want to make clear there very well could be a difference between the Hamilton I see and the real Hamilton. But I also hope he sees what he’s doing, how he alienated all but the most loyal fans he had left in Detroit. Rip is aging. That’s a tough reality for anyone, especially someone who relies on his body for a living. I empathize will Hamilton. I really do. His response to that, though, is to teleport into some alternate universe. I wish I lived in Hamilton’s fantasy land, a place where the only thing keeping him from elite production is playing time, where players didn’t age and where he never had issues with John Kuester. I want to like Hamilton again. He’s arguably the worst player to lead a championship team in scoring since the NBA began calling itself the NBA. He certainly had the worst points per game average of any such player in the last 60 years. And I mean it as an absolute compliment. In and around Detroit, we don’t mind doing things the hard way. We just like when things work. Hamilton’s mid-range game was the hard way. Few players zig and zag around the court, around screen after screen, like Hamilton did at his peak. It was awesome. And it was inefficient. Hamilton would have been much better served developing his 3-point range, where baskets are worth 50 percent more points than his long jumpers. But it worked, and I loved Hamilton for it. I really wish we could all go back to that time, but I don’t live with Hamilton in his fantasy land. All I see is him trying to shirk responsibility for what wrong in Detroit, a toxic situation created in large part because of his attitude. That the Pistons brought back Tayshaun Prince, a free agent, and dumped Hamilton, who had $19 million left guaranteed on his contract, should tell you a lot about how untenable the situation had become. Like I said, I made my peace a year ago with Hamilton’s end with the Pistons. So, as Detroit moves on without him, I just don’t feel that different. The Rip I grew up watching has been gone for a couple years now. I hope Hamilton finds that Rip in Chicago. Playing for a contender, especially one with Derrick Rose at point guard, will mean HOAM should show up more often. There will be plenty of nights Hamilton makes the Pistons look foolish for dropping him, even though his effort probably wouldn’t have been the same for them. But I just don’t think Hamilton will find happiness in Chicago, or anywhere else, until he stops blaming everyone else and accepts that age is chiefly responsible for his decline. Few athletes age gracefully and watching closely those who don’t is unsettling. I still yearn for the charismatic Rip, always smiling, punching his teammates before games. I just don’t see him returning – and I’m sick of watching this player I no longer like, quietly wishing his attitude could somehow just flip back in time a few years. Enjoy Chicago, Rip. Thanks for making the end easy to handle. I always imagined saying goodbye to Richard Hamilton would be difficult PistonPowered [...]

  • Dec 16, 20116:22 pm
    by kamal

    Reply

    You know what I find funny?  Big Ben feuds with LB, Flip, and Kuester (even went over to Chicago and feuded with their coach), participates in the boycott and we still love him.  Tayshaun feuds, openly, with Kuester, participates in the boycott, becomes a black hole on offense, and calls Kuester’s handling of players, “buffoonery”, yet we still love him.  Rip?  Not so much?  People say it’s been his attitude the last 3 seasons that’s ruined it for them. 

    2009-Joe brings in Iverson to run the point, replacing Chauncey.  A lot of us fans hated the trade and new it wasn’t going to work, so you can only imagine how the Piston players felt; especially Rip, the one who relied most on Chauncey’s on the money passing.  Curry, realizes that Iverson can’t run the point, so he slides him over to the 2, eventually sending Rip to the bench.  Rip?  The guy who led the team in scoring for 6 straight seasons, including virtually every playoff series?  The guy was never accused of having the “turn it off/on” mentality”?  Rip goes to the bench, for Iverson, who was only going to be here to the end of the season?  Rip should have just shut up and went to the bench and watch the team he busted his ass for go down the drain (sarcasm).

    2010-Joe brings in BG, another 2 guard to share time with the leading scorer for 7 straight seasons now.  But, whatever, Rip has a good camp and preseason, and comes out and has a lights out 1st game of the season.  Then, freak play, Rip severely injures his ankle.  That whole season, the team was hurt; including Rip.  Rip had NO issues with Kuester.  So when people say Rip had a bad attitude the last 3 seasons, how the hell can they include this season?

    2011-Bad season.  Rip handled everything wrong, even though he never blasted Kuester publicly.  Even though he never had any public spats with Kuester (like Stuckey, Tayshaun, and McGrady).  Even though Kuester had issues with Stuckey, Tayshaun, Ben, Charlie, Wilcox, McGrady, Bynum, and Daye at different times of the season.  Rip was the captain.  I get it.  He should have accepted playing half the games (1st and 3rd quarters only), he should have accepted the fact that Kuester didn’t communicate with the players, he should have accepted the losing; from the bench.  That would have made all of the fans happy.  In reality, no it wouldn’t.  Nobody likes losing.  If Rip had done all of those things, you guys would’ve said he had no passion and/or heart.

    2011 is the only season in which Rip’s “bad attitude” was on display.  Rip is my 3rd favorite Piston behind Isiah and Joe.  He didn’t deserve any of this in Detroit.  He was the one guy we could count on in every playoff series and HE’S the guy who has to share time?  Not Tayshaun, who got abused by James Pierce in consecutive ECFs?  He’s the guy we welcome back?  Sickening. 

    • Dec 16, 201110:40 pm
      by Patrick Hayes

      Reply

      “2011 is the only season in which Rip’s “bad attitude” was on display.”

      Well, he fought with Michael Curry as well. Curry was actually fired partially because he wouldn’t try and reconcile with Hamilton.

      Plenty of people have and will continue to defend Hamilton the last three years by saying it’s OK to bristle at incompetent coaching. There’s not much I can say to argue that point. Curry and Kuester were certainly bad coaches. But any professional in any field has bad bosses at one time or another. Hamilton’s behavior, particularly last season (as chronicled here) was unacceptable regardless of the coaching situation.

  • Dec 16, 20116:31 pm
    by kamal

    Reply

    We hate Rip who averaged 20, 4, and 3.7 in 120 playoff games for us, yet we LOVE Joe Dumars who averaged 15.8, 2.3, and 4.6 in 112 playoff games for us.

    Sickening 

    • Dec 16, 201110:44 pm
      by Patrick Hayes

      Reply

      I don’t understand why criticism is construed as ‘hate.’ I pretty clearly read Dan write a few times about valuing Hamilton’s positive contributions to the team. I hate this notion in sports that everyone is either a hero or a villain. Hamilton is neither. He’s a guy who got a lot of mileage out of limited talent, which he deserves a lot of credit for. He’s also a guy who acted childish at times and who (as Vincent Goodwill wrote) sometimes thought he was a franchise player when the reality was he wasn’t.

      Dan’s column is an honest assessment of how he, as a fan, has conflicted feelings about Hamilton because of the wide ranging ups and downs his career had here. I don’t see how anything he wrote is out of bounds.

      • Dec 17, 20112:12 am
        by kamal

        Reply

        Dan used the word “Disdain” in describing his feelings towards Rip.  He also used the word, “Dislike”.  Sounds closer to hate than criticism to me.

         

        • Dec 17, 20112:29 am
          by Patrick Hayes

          Reply

          You can disdain, dislike, hate someone’s actions without disdaining, disliking, hating that person.

          “I have really grown to dislike the image of Hamilton I see. That Hamilton is rude, conniving and fake.

          I know that’s unreasonable. I understand there’s a large side of him I’m not privy to. I want to make clear there very well could be a difference between the Hamilton I see and the real Hamilton.”

          That’s different than saying “I dislike Hamilton and think he sucks.” Face it, most of the coverage of Hamilton by reporters who talk to the players, coaches, etc. and are in the locker room on a daily basis has been negative. Anonymous teammates were quoted in stories about him. Anonymous team officials were quoted in stories about him. That doesn’t happen to players who are being good teammates.

          It’s very easy to dislike the public image of Hamilton over the last two years. I can still acknowledge that he’s been a damn good player for the organization. He’s worked hard and accomplished a lot. I think his game has declined because of age, but I still think he’s probably a better player than Ben Gordon. But I’ve also followed the NBA long enough to know that teams don’t pay buyouts expensive as Hamilton’s to just be rid of a player unless there are significant non-basketball reasons to do so. Hell, the Pistons were ready to give away a first round pick just to be rid of him in February if he would’ve agreed to a buyout then. Again, that doesn’t happen unless a player is a serious malcontent.

          Like you’ve pointed out, a lot of players were pissed at their situations last year and expressed some level of being disgruntled. But Prince was re-signed and they are trying to re-sign Stuckey. They had no desire to bring Hamilton back. I think there was an organizational understanding that players were frustrated and there was obviously some tolerance of that frustration if they’re willing to turn the page with Prince and Stuckey. Isn’t it possible that Hamilton was just far harder to deal with and far more of a malcontent behind the scenes?

           

  • Dec 16, 20117:44 pm
    by chuj

    Reply

    i think speed is something that fades rather quickly compared to other physical attributes as players age (athleticism/jumping ability are the most obvious)

    especially when it comes to quick, explosive sprints (to use a pindown screen for example) “losing a step” will be very limiting. 

    i haven´t looked at any data to back my claims, but watching rip last year, it seemed he did not get open for shots like he used to, plus he had to alter a lot of his shots. this could be because of the lack of a point guard (looking at you stuckey) or anything resembling a consistent system/game plan, but it was obvious imo.
    honestly, i can´t wait see rip pairing with d-rose, just to see how that pans out

    • Dec 16, 201110:37 pm
      by Patrick Hayes

      Reply

      “watching rip last year, it seemed he did not get open for shots like he used to”

      My eyes agree with this. Certainly, having a worse passing point guard with Billups and worse screen setters than in their prime Sheed/Ben was a factor, but I don’t understand how anyone realistically believes an in-his-30s Hamilton hasn’t lost some of his quickness and ability to shed contact. That’s not an insult. It’s just a reality that every aging player deals with.

  • Dec 16, 201110:35 pm
    by Patrick Hayes

    Reply

    From Jason’s comment:

    “You seem so convinced the person we saw the last couple years was the COMPLETE Richard Hamiton.”

    From Dan’s column:

    “For better or worse – and most of the time, better – Hamilton impacted the Pistons greatly in his nine years with the team”

    Reading is hard.

    • Dec 16, 201110:37 pm
      by Jason

      Reply

      your an idiot patrick. that is one comment on the last NINE years. I was talking about the last couple of years.

      “reading is hard”

      • Dec 16, 201111:04 pm
        by Patrick Hayes

        Reply

        *you’re

        • Dec 16, 201111:06 pm
          by Jason

          Reply

          you want to take an IQ test Patrick? You think cause you took writing classes you can think logically?

        • Dec 16, 201111:09 pm
          by Jason

          Reply

          i just type fast so dont try and put me down for my spelling patdick.

        • Dec 16, 201111:11 pm
          by Patrick Hayes

          Reply

          “patdick”

          Haha. I see what you did there. And no, I don’t think writing clearly makes me smarter than anyone. But if I were going to call someone an idiot, I would make sure that I wasn’t writing like an idiot. Just helping you out, broski.

    • Dec 16, 201111:01 pm
      by Jason

      Reply

      so what if he puts a few comments in it to save his ass for what he really believes. both you are non sports playing weak minded rhetoric writers. no one with respect of the game or love of the game would write the bullshit you guys write. i dont care if you went to college or are from dirt your parents should of showed you how to repect people who give it there best more than not. thats what detroit basketball is and hopefully will stay with Gores but I am not sure. Davidson was one of the best owners in all of sports. Thats a fact. Hamilton was part of that era and things fucking changed. 

      DID THEY NOT? you have a god damn wife running the show. Dumars can’t do a damn thing. A horrible coach. Hamilton showed his frustration.

      Be a MAN and respect the situation you weak minding pushovers.       

      • Dec 16, 201111:10 pm
        by Patrick Hayes

        Reply

        I know you’re a Dumars supporter, and I know you firmly believe things would’ve been different had the ownership situation been different, so I’d like to put you on the spot with a question. What if you were Joe Dumars?

        Dumars signed Hamilton to a very generous contract extension, probably for more money than Hamilton could’ve got anywhere else. Hamilton and Prince were co-captains. Dumars kept them to be the leaders of his rebuilding effort. He also hired Kuester. Things obviously went poorly. As we all know, Dumars couldn’t make many moves due to the sale of the team. If you were Dumars, wouldn’t you have hoped that the man you made a captain and paid a boatload of money to would’ve handled his issues with the coach you also hired more professionally? Dumars obviously had blind loyalty for Hamilton, based on the huge contract he gave him despite the fact that Hamilton was getting close to an age when guards start to see their production decline. If you’re a Dumars supporter, didn’t Hamilton owe Dumars more professionalism for the loyalty Dumars has shown him?

        • Dec 16, 201111:22 pm
          by Jason

          Reply

          putting me on the spot?

          the questions are irrelevant. dumars did not know the future situation at hand when he signed rip. and he actually had a trade in place for boozer but wasnt allowed cause of the long-term contract they would of signed with boozer.

          so i if i was dumars. yes i would of signed rip at that time. cause yes I would of thought iverson would of worked just like PHIL JACKSON thought.

          but then that didnt work and while he was trying to fix it ownership got in the way and wouldnt allow the trade like i mentioned. DID IT NOT?

          So let me put both of you on the spot.  Its a yes and no question first and then you must explain after. Do you agree with the situation I just wrote Dumars was in?

          And regards to Rip’s professionalism. I don’t care about complete professionalism. Its a word for pussies. I beleive in competiveness, toughness, and a little class. Thats all we need as fans. Look at the lions. They play with no professionalism but they are winning and playing tough and competively. AND FANS LIKE IT.

        • Dec 16, 201111:31 pm
          by Patrick Hayes

          Reply

          “And regards to Rip’s professionalism. I don’t care about complete professionalism. Its a word for pussies. I beleive in competiveness, toughness, and a little class.”

          On the court, I don’t care either. Be tough, unapologetic, crazy, whatever. Off the court? Hamilton’s public feuds with the coach resulted in the only major national media coverage the Pistons received last year. This made Dumars and the organization look even worse than they already did because the team they put on the court was so terrible. You’re saying if you’re Dumars or any exec really you would be OK with a player on your team putting you on front street like that? The answer is really easy. Any GM would be insanely pissed off about that.

        • Dec 17, 201112:00 am
          by Jason

          Reply

          I am sure Dumars was pissed off at him. And maybe Rip owed more to Dumars than he showed. But if I had a thing going on and then I was going to be moved to Utah but was not allowed and had to play with a bad coach. not so good point guard. and another player who needs big minutes at my position. yes I would get really really really pissed and might show my frustration. YOU KNOW WHY?

          Cause I love basketball.

          Caulse I love to win.

          Cause I just like to compete with best on a daily basis cause I can. Which i showed by winning an NBA and NCAA title.

          Not because some idiot like you guys put up declining stats when the actually situation which you cant measure by stats is what I said above. 

          That being said I think it was best we bought him out.

      • Dec 17, 201112:02 am
        by Patrick Hayes

        Reply

        OK, reading back through this exchange, I’ve gotta change the subject for a second, because I don’t want to start another season with ridiculous wastes of time responding to rudeness in the comments here. And you seem to be insistent on hanging out here, so I’m going to once again plead for some sanity.

        I get that you probably wear Tapout shirts and drive a Dodge Stratus and smell like Axe body spray 24/7 and could totally choke out any pencil pushing mangina having writer any day of the week, bro. It doesn’t have to be that way though. It benefits no one to have a stupid sports debate turn into a UFC promo down here.

        Dan and I come at what we do here with defined viewpoints and philosophies. We watch a ton of basketball, we are opinionated about what we see, sometimes we are wrong, sometimes we are right. Basically, we just try to write content that we believe in and put it out there to get you guys talking down here. We fully expect and hope people will sometimes disagree. It’s honestly very helpful as a writer when intelligent people disagree with you or expose you to angles or ways of thinking about a situation that we hadn’t previously considered. Sometimes, I’ve written things, then looked back on them weeks or months later and said, “wow, what a piece of shit that was.” That’s part of writing, particularly about sports, where things are never static and there are a myriad of philosophies at work shaping why teams/athletes/coaches/execs do things the way that they do. It’s good to have dialogue and back and forth. It’s good to hear what readers have to think. It’s good to have smart people read your work. Sometimes it’s rewarding to have people agree with you, but a well-argued “here’s why you’re wrong” is even more helpful to me personally.

        That’s where this thread comes in. It’s toxic. It’s stupid, pointless banter, and frankly, a lot of your comments here take this defensive, attacking tone that is just insanely unnecessary. Then, because I’m an immature person, I have to respond and make fun of your improper use of you’re when you’re calling me an idiot. It’s a pointless, insanely stupid waste of my time, your time and the time of people who actually want to read the comments here to see if anything of value is ever posted.

        In short, by all means, hang out here. Make jokes. Disagree. Make counterarguments. Buy my book. Say swear words if you like (just not at other commenters). Make yourself at home. But stop with the “commenters vs. writers” mentality. Eventually, if you insist on persisting with it, I’ll just ignore you (as will everyone else) and move on. But it doesn’t have to be that way. You (like Rip) have the ability to control how you conduct yourself. So if you don’t like something, say why you don’t like it. But you don’t know Dan. You don’t know me (and seriously, we both come from Flint … we’re not some wilting flower intellectuals just because we also happen to be writers). You don’t know the other commenters here. So drop the “I’m totally gonna pound your face in on Rip’s behalf if I ever see you” bravado. Bring something to the table or move on.

  • Dec 16, 201111:41 pm
    by bob bayer

    Reply

    Murph is right .. this is another mindless hatchet job .. Rip was a great Piston .. and played his heart out for this team … Then Dumars went self-destructive in a whole slew of moves that Dan Feldman never came close to questioning … Plugging extra SGs and SFs into the team when what we needed were PFs, PGs, and centers … Using buffoon head coaches that could never win anywhere or command respect … And what about all the trades that were held up because the team were being sold? None happening now .. just like I stated last season ..WHY? because the Piston team and players talent levels have been harshly diminished by playing players out of position and using bad head coaches .. No one wanted what we had last year and they dont this season either so we are stuck bad FAs like Charlie V and Ben G … It was just one excuse after another to protect our GM from any vestige of journalistic discussion of what was going wrong with the team .. Sorry Dan .. We disagree .. again!  I will say you treat your posters with a lot of respect even if they disagree … That is very professional .. But please get out of Joe Dumars pocket! The truth could do him and the Pistons some good.

    • Dec 17, 201112:06 am
      by Patrick Hayes

      Reply

      Why can’t they be separate issues?

      Dumars has done a poor job over a certain number of years. But why can’t Hamilton also be responsible for not acting professionally? He wasn’t the only one screwed over by poor coaching, but he was the only one who acted out negatively as frequently and to the extent that he did. Still not understanding how it is out of bounds to say that.

      • Dec 17, 20111:59 am
        by kamal

        Reply

        “He wasn’t the only one screwed over by poor coaching, but he was the only one who acted out negatively as frequently and to the extent that he did.”

        Hamilton acted out more frequently than Stuckey?  More than Tayshaun?  Come on, man.  Stuckey beefed with Kuester all season and even did so during games.  Stuckey essentially said that he’d be glad when Kuester would be fired.  Tayshaun called his handling of situations buffoonery.  There was 7 players that participated in the boycott.

        But let’s hang it all on Rip.

         

        • Dec 17, 20112:15 am
          by Patrick Hayes

          Reply

          Stuckey was benched twice for insubordination, so it wasn’t like he went unpunished for it. And Prince had a couple blowups — buffoonery and then the in-game shouting match — but the fact that the team wanted to re-sign him and bring him back whereas they would rather pay Hamilton not to be on the roster despite the fact that he’s still clearly better than Ben Gordon should speak volumes about what was going on behind the scenes.

          No one is “hanging it all” on Rip. But Rip is responsible for Rip’s behavior. I am not privy to what exactly was going on behind the scenes. But this was the worst story about any individual player that leaked. And it leaked on the most heavily trafficked national sports website there is. That’s a huge deal. And as for the boycott, all of the beat writers covering the team on a daily basis have alluded to the fact that Hamilton is believed to be the organizer/ringleader/whatever of that. Other players who showed their frustrations in a negative or toxic way certainly deserve criticism as well for their individual actions. But based on all of the reports of last season, I firmly believe Hamilton was the worst of that group. I believe his attitude was toxic, even if he was right that the coach sucked. And I believe that his quote above — that he never had a problem with Kuester — is absurdly ridiculous based on everything that has been reported about their relationship. The mature thing to do would’ve been to own up to his role (he had some, Kuester had some) in their relationship getting so poisonous. At the very least, he could’ve just no commented it and said he’s focused on Chicago. Instead, he lied.

          • Dec 17, 201111:03 am
            by kamal

            In regards to the buy-out, you’re assuming Rip wanted to come back.  What if it was Rip’s decision to get waived?  We don’t know.  

            In regards to that altercation in practice, I don’t know how accurate that was.  We don’t know what was said by both parties.  And as for the young players who wished they had the courage to say something, two of them participated in the boycott a couple of months later.  And reporters can believe it was Rip who orchestrated it but they have no prove or sources.  That’s just their belief.

            I’m not saying Rip was a model citizen.  But I know that when we were winning, you never heard a peep out of this guy.  From Carlisle, to Brown, to Flip.  And then the line-up and roster change, and suddenly Rip is Terrell Owens?  I attribute that to wanting to win and hating to lose.  Kobe is blasting management for trading Odom and demanded a trade publicly when he shared the backcourt with Smush Parker.  I know Rip is no Kobe, but can it be possible that he shares Kobe’s passion for winning?  You ever read the part in Phil Jackson’s book about Kobe?  Ouch.  When you’re used to winning, losing doesn’t sit well with you; especially when you believe you know why you’re losing.  I’m assuming Rip knew exactly why the team went from the ECF to the lottery.

          • Dec 17, 20113:30 pm
            by Murph

            “But this was the worst story about any individual player that leaked. And it leaked on the most heavily trafficked national sports website there is. That’s a huge deal.”

            According to the story, here’s  what Hamlton is supposed to have yelled at Kuester:

            “As stunned coaches and teammates watched, Hamilton bellowed at Kuester that he had been a failure in his two seasons in Detroit, blown the opportunity the franchise afforded him and was nothing more than a career assistant coach, sources said. Despite Hamilton yelling within inches of him, Kuester didn’t respond.”

            LOL…Patrick, you have to admit, at least Hamilton is truthful and objective about Kuester, which is more than I can say for you.

            And, in your opinion, who is responsible for the leak???  Why don’t you do some real reporting and give us the name of the person who leaked the story?

          • Dec 17, 20115:10 pm
            by Patrick Hayes

            Haha. I don’t care who is responsible for the leak. There would be no sports journalism without leaks. Detroit’s organization had leaks everywhere last year — there are several possibilities for who could’ve gone to Woj with that story and for who went to Goodwill with his story. The only team with more anonymous negative stuff slipping to the media was Minnesota.

            The real question remains, if you don’t like what we do here, why do you read? I think the answer is you really do enjoy the work here. Perhaps I can interest you in a Christmas gift?

          • Dec 17, 20115:38 pm
            by Murph

            “The real question remains, if you don’t like what we do here, why do you read? I think the answer is you really do enjoy the work here.”

            Yes…in general, you have a good sight with good stories.  I probably agree with about 90% of your stories, disagree with about 5%…and hit the ceiling on about 5% of the stories, like the latest Hamilton hatchet job.

    • Dec 17, 20112:00 am
      by Joe Dumars

      Reply

      Sure you can blame Dumars for the overload of SGs, but Rip was never meant to be on the team after they sign Ben Gordon. Rip was almost traded straight up for Boozer, but Karen Davidson nixed because she didn’t want to team to take on any more salary.

      Trades??? are you expecting trades players like Charlie V, and Ben Gordon to be traded with those contracts? Ha!

      As for the bad coaching hire like Kuester, Joe actually had a deal in place for Avery Johnson to be the new head coach, but Karen Davidson yet again nixed something because of money. Then Dumars had to settle for Kuester.

  • Dec 16, 201111:55 pm
    by Louis Davis

    Reply

    I agree completely that Rip left Detriot mentally when Chauncey left physically and this messed up the dynamics of the Pistons. I feel as brilliant as .Joe D. is he has to remember that he was a player first and he needs to get back to the basics of what makes a team dynamic. As far as the man in the iron mask goes, .Rip. I .will greatly miss him and I wish Joe wouldve paid more attention to what his players needed then his own ego!

  • Dec 17, 20113:53 am
    by frankie d

    Reply

    “…but Rip was never meant to be on the team after they sign Ben Gordon. Rip was almost traded straight up for Boozer, but Karen Davidson nixed because she didn’t want to team to take on any more salary.”
    this is amazingly dumb.  if you don’t want to take on any more salary, why the heck are you signing a guy to a 50 million plus contract, without knowing whether you can dump the player he is supposed to replace.
    it’s like getting married to someone in anticipation of a divorce that MIGHT take place a few months in the future.  you don’t marry the new person until you are divorced from spouse number one.
    “…Trades??? are you expecting trades players like Charlie V, and Ben Gordon to be traded with those contracts? Ha!”
    Unnhhh…i hate to tell  you this but those contracts you disparage – for both CV and gordon – were given to those players by joe dumars.  jesus christ didn’t come down to earth and sign those players to ridiculous contracts.  joe dumars signed those players to those ridiculous contracts.  who else is responsible for those bad contracts?  the sun…the moon…the stars?
    “…As for the bad coaching hire like Kuester, Joe actually had a deal in place for Avery Johnson to be the new head coach, but Karen Davidson yet again nixed something because of money. Then Dumars had to settle for Kuester.”
    HAD to settle?  ridiculous!  settle for a coach with a horrendous record as a head coach.  not hardly.  you interview young guys and find a good, young head coach.  once upon a time joe  discovered the guy who might be the best coach in the league – rick carlisle – and gave him his first job.  guys like thibodeau and lionel hollins and dwayne casey and many other competent young coaches had been out there, some of them for a very long time, ready to be hired.  just because a name vet coach turned him down is no excuse for hiring a stiff like kuester.  joe d’s job is to find coaches and players and his failure to hire a good coach cannot be excused so easily.
    it is hilarious to see dumars apologists act as though joe’s actions have been ordained from above or that somehow, someway, he had no choice other than to hire this or that coach or give this or that player a dumb contract.  no, joe did those things of his own volition and he is responsible for the outcomes.

    • Dec 17, 20115:31 am
      by Joe Dumars

      Reply

      “this is amazingly dumb. if you don’t want to take on any more salary, why the heck are you signing a guy to a 50 million plus contract, without knowing whether you can dump the player he is supposed to replace.
      it’s like getting married to someone in anticipation of a divorce that MIGHT take place a few months in the future. you don’t marry the new person until you are divorced from spouse number one.”

      Oh wow, my point went right over your head didn’t it? Its funny how you think i’m some apologist.

      “Unnhhh…i hate to tell you this but those contracts you disparage – for both CV and gordon – were given to those players by joe dumars. jesus christ didn’t come down to earth and sign those players to ridiculous contracts. joe dumars signed those players to those ridiculous contracts. who else is responsible for those bad contracts? the sun…the moon…the stars?”

      Well no shit captain obvious. I guess if i’m not insulting Dumars in my post I must be some apologist right?

      “HAD to settle? ridiculous! settle for a coach with a horrendous record as a head coach. not hardly. you interview young guys and find a good, young head coach. once upon a time joe discovered the guy who might be the best coach in the league – rick carlisle – and gave him his first job. guys like thibodeau and lionel hollins and dwayne casey and many other competent young coaches had been out there, some of them for a very long time, ready to be hired. just because a name vet coach turned him down is no excuse for hiring a stiff like kuester. joe d’s job is to find coaches and players and his failure to hire a good coach cannot be excused so easily.”

      1. Those young guys like Thibodeau, were still out of Karen Davidson’s price range.
      2. Avery Johnson didn’t turn the Pistons down. He had agreed to become the new head coach, but then Davidson nixed the deal. Basically name coaches, and hot shot young coaches weren’t in her price range. All Dumars could afford to hire was a coach that just wanted a head coaching job with mediocre resume.
      3. It is an excuse, because of the money issue and by the time they had to move on from Avery the coach market was drying up.

      • Dec 17, 20112:37 pm
        by frankie d

        Reply

        since your post is so brilliantly subtle, what is your point?
        the idea that karen – the all purpose excuse for dumars apologists, if you want to assume that mantle, fine  – nixed a done deal because of money is ludicrous.
        anytime anyone hires someone – and i’ve done my share for my own purposes and on behalf of others – one of the first things one does is establish parameters for compensation.  money.  moolah. often called a salary.
        it’s elementary.
        the idea that joe would or could come to any sort of agreement with a coach on a contract flies in the face of basic contract law.  there are these little things called elements of contracts, you know…stuff like offer and acceptance and consideration and until you have those elements in place you don’t have an agreement or a contract.
        now, if joe d did imagine that he had a contractual agreement in place with avery, but he just didn’t have a dollar number for compensation, then he is either incompetent or crazy.
        yes, you can work through everything else before you get to that touchy little issue of money, but before any agreement can be established, the money end of it has to be agreed upon.
        and if joe committed to a number that his boss – karen – would not support, then, again, that clearly establishes his incompetence.
        and if he didn’t know that she would ok a certain monetary figure he had agreed to, then that is also incompetent.
        the other possibilities – eg, that he went ahead and did a deal that he knew his boss didn’t support – are too crazy to contemplate.

  • Leave a Reply

    Your Ad Here