DeAndre Jordan’s search for better offer will complicate potential Tayshaun Prince-for-Chris Kaman sign and trade
Adrian Wojnarowski of Yahoo! Sports:
Clippers offer 5 years, $40M to keep RFA DeAndre Jordan, sources tell Y! Still, he’s destined to sign offer sheet and force them to match.
This.
Players: Tayshaun Prince
Posted in Notes • 38 Comments
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Dec 6, 2011 • 3:52 pm
by omar
There’s also this:
http://tracking.si.com/2011/12/06/caron-butler-to-meet-with-the-clippers-for-second-day-in-a-row/
Butler is having a second meeting with the Clippers and very pleased with their situation. If he signs there, the prince-kaman deal is over, no matter what happens with Jordan.
There’d still be a chance of trading for Kaman with other pieces like CV, maybe.
Dec 6, 2011 • 3:54 pm
by Matt
Why don’t we go after Jordan? Why should we waste time and money on Kaman?
Dec 6, 2011 • 4:06 pm
by Patrick Hayes
I don’t believe the Pistons could offer much more than the mid-level. If the Clips are starting at an $8 million a year offer, I would guess there might be a team out there (Indiana? Toronto?) with cap space that will up that to $10 million per in an effort to get the Clips not to match. Young, raw big men who flash some potential always get expensive in free agency.
Dec 6, 2011 • 4:29 pm
by Tiko
I thought if they amnestied someone they would be able to offer that kind of money?
Dec 6, 2011 • 4:41 pm
by Dan Feldman
Not really. Post on that coming tomorrow.
Dec 6, 2011 • 4:42 pm
by Patrick Hayes
Whether they could do it or not, there’s a big difference between amnestying someone to sign Nene and doing it to sign DeAndre Jordan. Nothing against Jordan, but handing him a huge contract is risky because he’s still a project whereas Nene is an established All-Star caliber big man. Amnestying someone is a huge financial hit and then you add the large salary of the new player on top of that. I’m not sure Gores is willing to do that this early in his tenure, especially for a player like Jordan who, while promising, is still unproven as a full-time starter and big money player.
Dec 6, 2011 • 4:06 pm
by frankie d
gee, wouldn’t it have been nice if joe had drafted jordan back when he had an easy shot at it? and he passed twice!
jordan was someone who was projected anywhere from late lottery to early second round. joe first drafted and traded dj white, then drafted the immortal sleepy sharpe, a couple of picks before LA drafted jordan in the early second round.
that draft was when i started having doubts about joe. a talented, but erratic seven footer is sitting there, you need exactly that kind of player, but you draft another small forward, a guy with a bullet in his gut, a guy who had been kicked off his college team?
it was unbelievable when it happened.
now, most teams would probably love to have jordan, and he’s getting ready to get paid by someone.
Dec 6, 2011 • 4:13 pm
by Tim
yeah, Im with frankie on this one. Now, I live in aggieland, so I am obviously a little biased, but Jordan was a great low risk draft pick. Sure, he was not particularly good as an aggie, but he was a consensus top 3 HS baller the year before. Why not take a flyer on him?
Dec 6, 2011 • 4:24 pm
by frankie d
tim,
he is exactly the type of player you take a risk on in the late first, early second round.
i’ll never forget watching that draft and being stunned when joe passed on him two times. i just didn’t get it. especially when he ended up taking a small forward when tay was solidly entrenched there and small forwards are the easiest position to fill in the league.
freakishly athletic seven footers? not so easy to find.
Dec 6, 2011 • 4:59 pm
by omar
I would’ve taken Jordan in the 2nd round. But I’m not impressed enough with him to offer him $8 mil/yr or more. To me, he’s a glorified garbage man, but because of his great length, size, and athleticism he’s worth a little more than the typical MLE garbage man, but not $8-10 mil/yr.
He really has little to no game on offense.
Dec 6, 2011 • 5:02 pm
by omar
In LA, when you have Griffin next to him for all the offense, you can get by with his shortcomings on offense. But I dont see a good fit next to Monroe, who still hasn’t developed any offensive game of his own yet. I think Kaman is the better fit. He gives us a #1 option inside, so Monroe can take his time developing his moves, and not have to be so relied upon that he;s forcing everything.
Dec 6, 2011 • 7:27 pm
by frankie d
jordan is the perfect compliment to monroe.
his athleticism would compensate for the fact that monroe lacks a bit in that department. jordan is excellent on the pick and roll because of his length and athleticism, and his shotblocking has improved immensely the last year or so.
monroe is so-so at both those very important functions, primarily because he is more skilled than athletic. he is, however, an excellent rebounder. he just has that knack for finding the ball, plus he has excellent hands.
jordan is an average rebounder for a big man.
offensively, jordan could score 10-12 points a game off of lobs and high/low passes from monroe. he has excellent hands and with monroe’s ability to deliver nice passes, he’d feast. he certainly is limited offensively, but when you are an athletic big guy with good hands and the ability to get to the rim, and you have a great passer feeding you the ball, you will score a decent amount of points simply by being there.
john salley scored about 8,9 points a game, in about 25 minutes a game, that way, and he was nowhere near as aggressive around the basket as jordan is. and salley had no offensive game, period.
on the other hand, kamen is too much like monroe, just bigger and slower and more polished at this point. they do not compliment each other at all. any front court with those two starting would work nicely offensively – because both are quite skilled – but defensively they would be exploited by teams that would pick and roll them all day. it wouldn’t be quite as bad as it was in minnesota a couple of years ago when jefferson and love played together, but it would be somewhat similar.
as i’ve said, too bad joe didn’t draft him when he had the chance or that he didn’t pry him away from LA when they had a real surplus of big guys and jordan hadn’t really played much. a couple of years ago, they probably would have given him up for tay. fans would have wondered how the heck joe could have made such a trade, but it would have shown great imagination.
now, no way LA lets him go. detroit may have to settle for kamen, who is not a bad consolation prize.
Dec 6, 2011 • 10:48 pm
by omar
The biggest reason I dont see them fitting together is neither has any sort of developed, consistent skill-set on offense, in terms of scoring. I do expect Monroe to develop that over time. But right now you couldn’t rely on either of them to be legit scoring threats, on their own.
Yeah they both can score off put-backs and P&R. But they need moves of their own one-on-one, or else defenses will just ignore them and load up onto our guards. It would be very easy offense to shut down. We need that proven consistent scoring big man in the low post like Kaman.
As long as we don’t have a player Charlie V on the court with Monroe, I have trust in Frank’s team defensive system. That we won’t necessarily need a defensive big man next to Monroe to be a good defensive team. If we get a low post scorer like Kaman, we can put a lot of pressure on teams by consistently pounding it inside on offense, slowing the game down, and thus making it easier on our defense. Because there won’t be so much pressure to have to shut teams down in order to win. Having a good, consistent, well-balanced offense will provide some wiggle room on defense.
I don’t think Jordan is that goo defensively anyways, to where we could just beat teams on defense, without getting much on offense from our frontcourt.
Dec 7, 2011 • 12:21 pm
by frankie d
the most important factor, when pairing big guys, imho, is how they mesh defensively. the offense will usually take care of itself when one of those guys has a lot of skill. (eg, ben and sheed, duncan and the string of mediocre big guys he has played with over the last decade.) but if you have big guys who do not mesh defensively, your team will have a fatal hole at its most critical defensive area.
jordan not that good defensively?
have you watched the clippers much, when he has played?
as a west coaster living in a western conference nba city – portland – i’ve seen a lot of him. i would strongly argue against that idea.
at his best, he is a lot like tyson chandler, when chandler was younger and much more athletic. he is not the rebounder that chandler is – he still chases shots and players and ends up away from the basket often – he does get a lot of tough, in traffic rebounds because of his hops and his excellent hands. he gets some of those dennis rodman rebounds where he just takes the ball away from the guy who is right there in position to grab it. he still has to actually learn more about playing defense on his own guy, but he is extremely active and disruptive and when he was on his game and out of foul trouble, his defense keyed LA’s impressive transition game. he was the big reason gordon and griffin and bledsoe and aminu got all of those transition open jumpers and those pretty dunks. yes, he is still learning and is still somewhat inconsistent, but right now he is a good/sometimes very good defensive center and in time he could become a dominant defender.
Dec 7, 2011 • 12:56 pm
by tarsier
Your examples of big man pairings involve absolutely elite offensive players. And then you talk about the offense taking care of itself. Of course if you have Duncan or Sheed in his prime, the offense takes care of itself.
Dec 6, 2011 • 5:19 pm
by Matt
Why not do the whole Tayshaun Prince deal for Jordan? There may be money issues but this is not the national deficit. We could figure it out. I think Jordan could play well with Monroe. All I heard about Monroe coming out is that he is a great passer and facilitator with the ball. Like maybe Chris Webber was, and Jordan is becoming greater at defense while his shooting needs work, like Ben Wallace. Get these two together and see what happens. Joe seems to be down with the “see what happens” philosophy currently. How else do you explain the signing of Ben Gordon and Charlie Villnueva? I might even be willing to give up Daye. But I’m a fan, I’ll be with the Pistons no matter.
Dec 6, 2011 • 5:35 pm
by Dan Feldman
On example trade-rumor analysis that’s counterproductive: any variation of “Why don’t we just trade for (insert better player on other team) instead?”
Dec 6, 2011 • 5:59 pm
by Matt
That’s what the Lakers do.
Dec 7, 2011 • 12:58 pm
by tarsier
Why don’t we trade Gordon+Maxiell for Bosh? The salaries would be a match. smh
Dec 6, 2011 • 5:54 pm
by domnick
not a good news at all…
are there any other options that pistons should be doing??
why don’t they try moving Rip first before making sign-and-trade?
Dec 6, 2011 • 10:09 pm
by Chris
Dominick,
It’s unlikely they’ll find a suitor for Rip early in the season. Teams are going to wait to see if Detroit uses its amnesty on him or comes to an agreement on a buyout. And, if Detroit does neither, they’ll want to see if he is a borderline All Star like he was before they take on the $25M he has left on his contract.
Most of the teams that would be interested in him- possibly Dallas, Chicago, New York- would much rather take a chance on Rip for $1.2M veterans minimum (or even MLE) than $12.5M over the next two years.
If you want Rip gone, I suggest you hope he has a GREAT attitude with Frank and suddenly returns to a guy making 45% of his shots.
Dec 7, 2011 • 12:53 pm
by domnick
well my worry is… its not about RIP being Great Attitude or not.. but the crowded backcourt is still the problem.. we need to dump someone in the lineup instead of waiting for things to come… we need to act… instead of waiting out here and watching RIP being the good guy while our team still sucks for the entire shortened-season..
i hope we can do something more valuable aside from Sign and Trade…
Dec 8, 2011 • 10:02 am
by Chris
Found this nugget from the Detroit News:
Here’s how the clause works: Teams under the cap, like the Pistons, get to bid on amnestied players, and the team with the highest bid is the winner.
From The Detroit News: http://detnews.com/article/20111208/SPORTS0102/112080404/Pistons-keep-low-profile-in-free-agent-market#ixzz1fxEfmLo0
Dec 6, 2011 • 9:27 pm
by Murph
I’m confused. We’ve been told that the Pistons aren’t going to use the amnesty clause. Then how are they going to afford adding a MLE free agent to the roster? Using the MLE on any free agent is going to put the Pistons way over the salary cap…unless…unless they plan on letting Stuckey walk.
So is that the direction the Pistons are moving toward?…letting Stuckey walk and using his salary on a big man like Jordan? That would explain the Pistons interest in a 3rd or 4th string PG like Walker Russell Jr.
Dec 6, 2011 • 9:31 pm
by Dan Feldman
Teams can exceed the salary cap in certain circumstances, including using the MLE. It’s a soft cap.
Dec 6, 2011 • 10:37 pm
by omar
Dan, A few questions about cap:
1) I thought the MLE was for teams with no cap space. But we have about $8 mil under the cap, I think. How can we use our MLE?
2) Can we spend that $8 mil first, and THEN use the MLE to add another player this off-season?
3) How do the Stuckey/Jerebko signings factor in? Can we spend that $8 mil, sign someone to the MLE, and then be allowed to go over the cap to re-sign our own players (Stuckey, Jerebko)?
Thanks
Dec 6, 2011 • 11:56 pm
by Dan Feldman
The short answer to all three questions at once: a team’s free agents continue to count against the cap unless renounced or signed. If a player is renounced, the team can no longer go over the cap to sign him.
1. Because the free agents count, the Pistons are over the cap. If the Pistons renounced all their free agents, they’d have more cap room than the MLE, but they wouldn’t have the ability to keep those FAs by going over the cap.
2. No
3. No
Dec 7, 2011 • 12:59 pm
by domnick
hmmm well if Pistons didn’t use MLE this season.. then we will have MLE for next season… am i correct?
since we can sign someone without touching the MLE then… why don’t we target some big names?
Dec 7, 2011 • 5:47 am
by Murph
I understand that it’s a soft cap. It just doesn’t make sense to me that Gores would spend roughly $12 million over the cap by signing Stuckey, Jerebko, Knight, Machlin AND an MLE free agent. Didn’t the team lose a reported $30 million two years ago?
From everything I’ve read about Gores, he seems like a careful, prudent investor, and spending $12 million over the soft cap on a money losing team doesn’t seem that prudent. I guess we’ll find out shortly.
Dec 7, 2011 • 9:59 am
by Chris
Murph,
They didn’t have $30M under the cap because they were over. If you have a $64M payroll and you shed, say $28M, you have $36M in salary- which is only $22M under the cap.
The Pistons spent all the cap money on Villanueva and Gordon and draft picks.
Let’s leave Maclin out to start, since his contract won’t be guaranteed.
Currently, Detroit has $48.3M tied up in contracts. On top of that, you have to add:
1. $3.9M qualifying offer for Stuckey to be a RFA instead of a UFA. This allows Detroit an opportunity to go above the cap to match any offer for Stuckey. Without the qualifying offer, they can’t. So, now we’re up to 52.2M
2. Jerebko’s qualifying offer is a little over $1M for the same reasons listed above. Now, we’re at $53.3M.
3. Brandon Knight’s rookie contract is slotted in somewhere $1.5-$1.8M. Now, we’re up to $55.1M.
4. If the salary cap is similar to last year’s $57-$58M, that would leave one incredibly cheap free agent signing, or the MLE as the only ways to sign a free agent.
So, that’s why we effectively say Detroit is capped. And, even if we were to assume that Stuckey and Jerebko sign reasonable deals ($7-8M for Stuckey, and $3M for Jerebko), you’re looking at closer to $61M in payroll, before even signing someone else (or Maclin). So, anything Detroit offers will be a full MLE.
And, if Detroit uses its amnesty, you have to remember, they eat that contract. Amnesty is only given in terms of salary cap and luxury tax thresholds. To quote Rasheed, CTC: cut the check.
Does that make more sense?
http://www.hoopshype.com is a pretty good reference for salaries, if you want to take a look.
Dec 6, 2011 • 11:22 pm
by Jodi Jezz
Wow, this is crazy!! I hope Dumars has something up his sleeve…
Dec 7, 2011 • 11:37 am
by Mike Payne
The only thing Joe Dumars has up his sleeve is a ham sandwich.
Dec 7, 2011 • 11:59 am
by frankie d
very funny. as i drink my coffee at my desk this morning out here in the great northwest, i got a huge laugh from that.
i will have to steal that line.
the disturbing thing is that it comes uncomfortably close to being true.
Dec 7, 2011 • 1:07 pm
by tarsier
Th problem with Dumars is that he achieved the incredibly difficult and improbable task of winning an NBA championship with no franchise players but a bunch of fringe all-stars (who became actual all-stars because they were on a damn good team). Kudos to him. But now he seems to think that is a repeatable feat–it was a fluke, Joe, take the traditional approach of doing whatever it takes to get a superstar and then building around him. And more importantly, he seems to have forgotten why that worked in the first place. The 2000s Pistons were incredibly successful because they had very good players on mediocre player salaries. He tried to duplicate that by paying a guy like Ben Gordon 8 figures/yr. Even if Gordon turned out as well as predicted, that would not have led to the Pistons being a contender.
Dec 7, 2011 • 2:53 pm
by frankie d
tasier,
you do not think that monroe has elite-level offensive skills?
Dec 7, 2011 • 1:17 pm
by Jodi Jezz
Lol, @Mike Payne!!! Lets wait till the season starts before we all start to sleep on Dumars…I think he’s going to make a good trade for us…He’s had 2yrs to think of something creative to do…
Dec 7, 2011 • 12:30 am
by Freeparty
Jordan will only add to mediocre starters with big salaries. Develop the young guys and try to build around a good young star that we draft. Trade Prince and amnesty Rip, he is well deserving based on his team play. Patience through the losing Strike Season and come back strong in the years to come.
Dec 8, 2011 • 9:14 am
by Murph
“Jordan will only add to mediocre starters with big salaries.”
I’m coming to that conclusion also. Don’t get me wrong, I like Jordan. He’s a big body who can defend and rebound. But if we signed him, he would only make us only slightly better, but not good enough to contend. He would probably only make us good enough to miss out on some of those prime time first round draft choices, such as Drummond, Davis, Barnes, Sullinger, etc.
With that in mind, Joe should lay off the free agent market this year, go with the players we already have under contract, and be prepared to lose a lot of games, in order to improve our draft position.