Comments on: Joe Dumars hasn’t made a bad move in more than two years

By: Catherin Hammed

Catherin Hammed — Wed, 10 Apr 2013 04:03:34 +0000

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By: khandor

khandor — Wed, 17 Aug 2011 18:54:24 +0000

I agree that Dumars should not have signed Villanueva.
Although I think adding a player like Ben Gordon can be an important ingredient in a team’s effort to get better, overall, so that it can eventually challenge for a league championship down-the-road, I can certainly see how someone else might choose to disagree with this assessment of BG’s highly limited skill-set and the specific role that “BG-type” players can sometimes fulfill for a high calibre team in the NBA … which is actually well-coached.
I also agree that having David Lee – warts and all – on the Pistons for the last 2 seasons could well have allowed their team to compete for a lower-tier playoff position … but, IMO, this is really not saying very much, since it is/was also my contention/belief that Detroit’s roster as it was SHOULD still have been able to achieve a similar net result even if it was nowhere near as strong as it needed to be in order to compete effectively for a Top 4 spot in the EC.
Personally, if I had actually been the Pistons GM, at the time, instead of Joe D., I would not have:
i. Traded Chauncey Billups for AI [in agreement with you];
ii. Signed Ben Gordon [in agreement with you];
iii. Signed Charlie Villanueva [in agreement with you]; or,
iv. Signed David Lee [disagree with you].
As I’ve said …we actually agree about more things involving the Pistons than we disagree. :-)
PS. And, believe it or not, the exact same thing can be said for me and someone like Dave Berri, even though he may not actually be able to realize it … due to the unfortunate presence of his own “blinders” [aka, agenda].

By: brgulker

brgulker — Wed, 17 Aug 2011 18:21:20 +0000

Again, we’re not talking about David Lee in a vacuum here. We’re talking about him specifically in the free agent context of 2009, when Dumars spent on BG and CV.

I do not think that David Lee would be the centerpiece of a championship frontcourt (unless you’re lucky enough to have a MJ or LBJ carrying your offense, of course). But I do think he has a great deal of value, and I think he was the best FA available during the summer of 09. I was baffled that Dumars never, ever talked about him or made a play for him.

In historical context and in hindsight, there’s no way NY would have matched a BG-type deal had we offered it to Lee. Lee may still have declined. There was risk there. But that risk was worth it, especially when you consider that the result of 09′s summer was what it was.

BG and CV don’t win championships. David Lee is better, but I wouldn’t say elite. If I had to choose, and frankly, Dumars did have to choose in that moment (either that, or sit on his cap space), I would have chosen Lee, because at least Lee helps you remain competitive, and at least he’s a tradeable asset if things don’t work out.

I agree he’s no Kevin McHale or Horace Grant.

By: khandor

khandor — Wed, 17 Aug 2011 16:45:32 +0000

@ Ben,
Clean slate.
For the most part, I agree that David Lee is a [fairly?] good basketball player. He is a net positive, a poor defender, a good rebounder, can make mid-range jump-shots, and does a bunch of little things that matter on offense [... and can help his team to win games, especially, of the regular season variety].
For the most part, I agree with everything which you said in your second paragraph.
If my team was just trying to be competitive in the NBA, then, I agree … that, yes, indeed, David Lee is a mostly productive player who can help a team achieve that specific goal.
My point, regarding a Big like David Lee, however, is concerned with something slightly different than that.
My point, specifically, is that adding a Big like David Lee … despite his net positivity … does not really and substantially move a team closer to ever being able to actually win a League Championship.
By this, I mean that, when I look at the rosters of the list of former championship teams in the NBA, I do not happen to see a number of different Big Men with individual game’s that resemble David Lee [i.e. as you've described him above].
I am making no judgment about this perceived absence, on my part, and just stating what I happen to see when I examine the Big Men on these other rosters.
e.g. Someone like Horace Grant was a MUCH better defensive player than David Lee, as was Otis Thorpe, and John Salley, and Malik Rose, and Fabricio Oberto, etc.; while the other type of Big Man you will find is most accurately described as a MUCH superior offensive player compared to David Lee, like Kevin McHale, Cedric Maxwell, Kevin Garnett, Pau Gasol, Elvin Hayes, James Edwards, James Worthy, etc.
Hopefully this makes it easier for you to understand my point.
i.e. If when the League Championship is eventually your team’s goal then adding a David Lee-type player to your roster, especially, as your starting PF-C, is not really going to help you accomplish this feat … if you look at the roster’s of past championship teams, and the list of major accomplishments for teams with David Lee-type players [... that are really not built very well for winning in the playoffs].

By: khandor

khandor — Wed, 17 Aug 2011 16:18:30 +0000

@ Ben,
Yes, I have first-hand experience working with elite level athletes.
Yes, I happen to have Hubie Brown’s home telephone number, and have communicated with him directly, on occasion, in the past … in addition to other elite level coaches I happen to know personally, across a range of different sports.
I do not tout this fact, however, in an effort to “make an appeal to authority”. I simply acknowledge this fact, if/when others ask me the following question, “What elite level coaches do you happen to know?”
Part of what I happen to do involves actually teaching at least one student of Philosophy, so I am quite familiar with the need such an individual has for the concept of precision.
Much R.E.S.P.E.C.T. to you, my friend, even … or, perhaps, especially … if we just so happen to disagree about a certain topic. In my judgment, we have much more in-common with one another than we have substantial differences of opinion and/or experience.

By: khandor

khandor — Wed, 17 Aug 2011 16:05:50 +0000

@ Ben,
I asked for the definition that you happen to be using for what constitutes a possession so that I can be clear about it. All too frequently, what is published elsewhere on-line for a working definition of “a possession” is FACTUALLY incorrect, according to how the game of basketball is actually played. [e.g. what may be acceptable to others as a legitimate form of "short-hand" is not necessarily acceptable to me, when it fails to make sense, according to the rules of the game, just for the sake of "ease" when dealing with an array of statistical computations]
As far I know the correct answer to Q2 is, “NO, they are not determined in that specific manner.”
When “possession totals” are not determined accurately … e.g. FGs + TOs + Number of Final FTAs [or a legitimate statistical estimate of this actual number] … and there is no possibility that one team in a game may well generate greater than a +1 difference in total number of possessions in a specific game, relative to their opponent, then, IMO, it is simply not sound to use the term “possession creation”while attempting to analyze the game of basketball.
[NOTE: In essence, if the hoops stats gurus of the world are going to mutate what actually constitutes a proper "possession" for the sake of statistical ease when performing complex computations then, unfortunately, at least, for them, they do NOT also get the luxury of being able to refer to the concept of "possession creation", since by their OWN definition, NO SUCH POSSIBILITY ACTUALLY EXISTS. Hopefully, this concept is not too difficult for anyone else who is reading this thread/comment for the first time to understand, since it is a hard concept to explain properly and my syntax is nowhere close to being good enough to explain concisely in a few words.]
I have now read your comment that says, “Clean slate,” and am willing to leave this topic behind, in an effort to move forward in a productive way, if you are agreeable. :-) Hopefully you are.

By: Matt

Matt — Wed, 17 Aug 2011 01:12:00 +0000

Sorry, I just don’t think I can really give Dumars credit for not making as catastrophic a move as the Billups/Iverson trade and Gordon/Charlie V signings.

Don’t you also have to look at moves that went unmade such as failed free agency pursuits and trades that fell through? I imagined that would be pretty tough to look back at and I’m not saying there were necessarily any “bad moves” among them, but I feel like if you’re going to credit Dumars with having “0 bad moves” you’ve gotta look at those.

By: brgulker

brgulker — Tue, 16 Aug 2011 20:03:05 +0000

@ khandor

Clean slate.

David Lee is a good player. Overall, he’s a net positive. He’s not a great defender, and if you’re counting on him as a defensive stopper, you’re going to be disappoitned. But he’s a good rebounder, he can knock down mid-range jumpshots consistently, and he does lots of the little things on offense that matter.

He’s probably a little bit overpaid in the last two years of his contract, assuming he returns to form next year and this year as an outlier due to injury and transition. But in the context of contracts that pay more than their worth — specifically in the context of a Pistons blog — I’d rather have him and his contract than any of our questionable-to-bad contracts. I’d gladly give him Rip’s contract or Ben Gordon’s contract every day of the week.

The fact that his team hasn’t won a championship yet doesn’t mean he’s not a player I’d want on my team if we were trying to build a championship team. He’s not a centerpiece, but he’s definitely a useful piece.

By: brgulker

brgulker — Tue, 16 Aug 2011 19:57:30 +0000

You have claimed to have had experience either coaching or working with “elite level athletes.” True or false?

You have claimed to have Hubie Brown’s phone number and have claimed to have talked to him in person with frequency. True or false?

The rest of your comment feels like a lot of hair splitting to me. I appreciate being precise, as a student of Philosophy, but I’m not sure there’s a fruitful outcome here.

Thanks for the complement. I’m a stubborn hard head, to be sure, but I try to respect people.

By: brgulker

brgulker — Tue, 16 Aug 2011 19:55:03 +0000

I’m not answering #1 or #2. Those answers are published and readily available. And yes, I’ve seen your blog posts bemoaning the opinion of everyone else on the matter.

W/r/t #3, I have no idea what you’re even trying to ask.