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When the lockout ends, what signings/trades need to be made league wide?

I participated in today’s 5-on-5 NBA roundtable at ESPN.com and the topic was trades and free agency. I slipped in a Pistons reference in the question about who the most underrated free agents were:

Among veterans, it’s Joel Przybilla. He’s a physical rebounder who will be less expensive than the first-tier big men available. A younger guy? Jonas Jerebko. He missed last season with a torn Achilles tendon, but he hustles, rebounds, plays defense and hits the offensive glass. It would take a significant offer for Detroit not to match, but there’s little doubt he would be a nice addition to any contender.

There are a lot of good points made and both some crazy and sensible trade suggestions in the discussion. But since it’s the holiday, and posting is light, here are the five questions for all of you to answer/debate in the comments:

1. Which team must make a major move this offseason?

2. Take your pick: Tyson Chandler, Marc Gasol, Nene Hilario, Yao Ming or Greg Oden.

3. Who’s the best non-center available this summer?

4. Bargain hunting: Who’s the best buy on the market?

5. Use the Trade Machine to make a deal that should happen.

I look forward to reading through your responses, particularly on the trade front. Have a happy Fourth of July.


  • Jul 4, 201111:21 am
    by BlackPh03N1X


    Simple – Rip Hamilton for Al Jefferson. 

    My theory is that Utah has too many big men and we have too many guards in the back court. So trading Rip for one of these bigs in Utah (Jefferson or Millsap)  could help us out.

    • Jul 4, 201111:42 am
      by Patrick Hayes


      It’s plausible I think. They are both signed for two years and the final year of Rip’s deal isn’t fully guaranteed, so perhaps Utah would do that to save money down the line, although I think they’d see if they can get more than just money savings out of Jefferson first.

      They wouldn’t have much interest in Rip I wouldn’t think, considering they took SG Alec Burks in the lottery.

  • Jul 4, 201111:35 am
    by jerrific


    How’s this for a trade? Atlanta gets Rodney Stuckey and Rip Hamilton in exchange for Josh Smith and Jeff Teague. It frees up room for Ben Gordon at shooting guard, and gives us defensive minded player moving forward to add to our young core. It probably won’t make us better next season, but lets face it, whatever season there is this year isn’t looking to bright for the Pistons anyways. Plus, if Joe really believes Brandon Knight is the future at PG for the Pistons then Stuckey is probably our most valuable trade asset at the moment.

    • Jul 4, 201111:40 am
      by Patrick Hayes


      But what does it do for Atlanta? They are already paying big money at SG to Joe Johnson and SF Marvin Williams. Plus, they have Hinrich signed for another season at $9 million a year at PG. I think if Atlanta trades Smith, they’d only do it in exchange for big man help.

      • Jul 4, 20119:21 pm
        by gmehl1977


        Atlanta i feel would be after a big and a first rounder for Josh Smith.

    • Jul 4, 20116:06 pm
      by Scott


      That trade would leave the Atlanta frontcourt depleted. Who would be there to play up front with Al Horford? Besides that would clutter up the Hawks backcourt too. Sorry but that makes no sense to me.

  • Jul 4, 201112:50 pm
    by Quick Darshan


    I like Nene a lot.

  • Jul 4, 201112:59 pm
    by BenLuckey


    1.) of course it’s the Pistons tired of 30 wins a year!
    2.) I’ll have to pick Gasol more upside he’s a big man who can protect the rim and rebound and be tough.
    3.) maybe JJ Barea or JR Smith although I don’t think either would help the Stones tremendously. If we can get rid of rip and stuckey I’d love to see J Rich come back home as our sixth man or starting with BG coming off the bench.
    4.) Hoping it would be a big guy. I’d love to see Monroe at the four we need a solid center who can play 30-35 minutes. They’re hard to find I know.
    5.) I love the Jefferson trade we should have traded/signed him a few years ago. Maybe a rip and BG for camby and Wallace from Portland. This is assuming we sign j rich or stuck.

  • Jul 4, 20111:23 pm
    by Davey


    1.  Orlando
    2.  Tyson Chandler
    3.  David West
    4.  Joel Pryzbilla 
    Pistons get:

    Monta Ellis from Warriors (3 years, $11 million per left)
    Andres Biedrins from Warriors (3 years, $9 million per left)
    Martell Webster from Minny (2 years, $4.8 million per left)

    Golden State gets:
    Rip Hamilton from Detroit (2 years, $12.5 million per left)
    Charlie Villanueva from Detroit (3 years, $7 million per left)
    Michael Beasly from Minny (1 year, $5 million left)

    Minnesota gets:
    Ben Gordon from Detroit (3 years, $10.8 million per year left)
    Reggie Williams from Golden State (0 years, $762.2K left)

    Actually, when looking at this, the Pistons might get the worst of it with long term contracts coming back.

    Pistons Pros:
    - Get rid of Rip, Charlie V and BG!
    - Address need for a talented, young center to pair with Monroe.
    - Add a dynamic scorer to play alongside Brandon Knight

    Pistons Cons:
    - Acquiring big contracts
    - Ellis is injury prone and Biedrins is coming off a couple horrible seasons
    - Webster, although a good defender, is another small forward

    Golden State Pros:
    - Shedding long-term, big contracts in Ellis and Biedrins
    - Acquiring Beasley for 1 year and Rip for 1 year with a player option can shed money for next year when it’s time to resign Curry
    - Can resign Beasley, have a young nucleus of Curry, Klay Tompson, David Lee and Epke Udoh
    - Adds a relatively inexpensive scorer off bench in Charlie V

    Golden State Cons:
    - Acquiring Charlie V
    - Sacrifice: 1 more year of mediorcity/poor basketball for the future of franchise
    - Losing a cheap, effective player in Reggie Williams (although the ascend of Dorrell Wright makes that less hurtful)

    Minnesota Pros:
    - Dynamic scoring 2-guard to pair with Rubio, veteran presence of BG will help Rubio’s development
    - Getting rid of Beasley frees up space for Derrick Williams at the 3
    - Reggie Williams is a steal!

    Minnesota Cons:
    - After 2 miserabe years in Detroit, can Gordon be that elite scorer again?
    - Again, Gordon for 3 more years at $10.8 million, is he going to be a good compliment to Rubio/Love?
    - Beasley was a good player for them last year, can Derrick Williams/Wesley Johnson be as good or better?

  • Jul 4, 20111:42 pm
    by Davey


    *For the record, I don’t think that Charlie V is a relatively inexpensive scorer off the bench.  He’s definitely overpaid.  I just couldn’t delete that part so I just left it

  • Jul 4, 20112:21 pm
    by Stephen


    Sort of astonished at the Nene love. He’s a very good scorer,who had a very disappointing Play-Off Series as the main man in Denver.
    There was a lot of speculation near trade deadline the Rockets were trying to trade for him,and everybody was talking about what a great defensive presence he’d be. That didn’t jibe w/what I remembered seeing in games and it turns out PER 36 Nene was significantly outrebounded by Houston’s 6’6″(Hah!) Center Chuck Hayes. Hayes ave’d more assists and fewer turnovers Per 36 than Nene. Nene ave’d 1.1 blocks Per 36 to Hayes’ .8 and of course Nene ave’d 17 points Per 36 compared to Hayes’ 10.(Hayes also drew 28 offensive fouls-a low year for him-in 200 less minutes than Nene who drew 18.)
    The point isn’t that Hayes should be included in the FA starting Center Sweepstakes(altho if I was Miami I’d sure think about it as Hayes at $3-4mil would be a lot better than most of options Miami will have),but that Nene is not that great a defender. Effecient scorer yes,great rebounder,defender,umm no.

    As an aside there have been some truly astonishing little tidbits I’ve run across in looking for facts to assure me I’m right or wrong on certain things.
    For example I would have never believed Nene only played some 210 minutes more than Hayes.
    Tracy McGrady shot a higher percentage from the field than Kevin Martin last yr(.442 to .436). Of course Martin did significantly better from 3pt land and drew FTs-and made them-like a machine. Still,I’d have bet just about anything Martin shot better from the field.
    Prince drew 14 offensive fouls in 2562 minutes,Daye drew 12 in 1446 and McGrady drew 11 in 1686 minutes. Some others-Wade 14 in 2842,Kobe 13 in 2779,LeBron 12 in 3063. Just an interesting fact that I have no idea if it means anything.

  • Jul 4, 20113:16 pm
    by Aruna


    1.  I think either Orlando or New Orleans needs to make a big move and play for a championship or risk losing their stars.  Probably Orlando more than New Orleans, it will be more tempting for Dwight to leave the Eastern Conference and get out of the Heat’s shadow than for Paul to break with New Orleans.
    2.  Gasol, already a great player with more room to grow (barring a miracle by Oden).
    3.  Call me a homer, but I think the best non-big free agent on the market is Stuckey.  If he is allowed to play attack first, I think he becomes the most dangerous scoring option on the market.  Combine that with serviceable to solid defense and you have the best guy who doesn’t purport to guard the rim.
    4.  In terms of bargains, I think Grant Hill is going to play on a contract for significantly less than his still NBA-caliber game and otherworldly leadership capabilities could garner.
    5.  Detroit ships Ben Gordon to Minnesota for Micheal Beasley and Brad Miller.
    - Detroit clears up some space at SG and in return gets a talented foward and a solid frontcourt-mate for Monroe
    - Minnesota clears the way for Derrick Williams and gets an offensive sparkplug to fill in the SG hole.
    - This deal doesn’t work if Kahn traded for Miller, instead of trading Flynn away.  Also Minnesota could be worried about taking on Gordon’s contract, if his game doesn’t mesh with Rubio then it would be a three year millstone.  Additionally, Gores might not be too happy about bringing in a headcase in Beasley and a goofball in Miller.  Also, does Kahn think Beasley can bring back more than Ben Gordon, would the Pistons have to throw in a protected first round pick depending on the level of protection, that might be a dealbreaker.

  • Jul 4, 20114:22 pm
    by Unofficial Review


    1. 1. Orlando must do something to get better now. They got to the finals a couple years ago and now all they have are a bunch of bad contracts and a grumpy Dwight Howard.
    2. 2. I suppose it depends on the team I have, but for me it’s between Chandler and Nene. Both bring defense and toughness. However, Nene is a more efficient scorer and Chandler has had injury problems in the past. Nene.
    3. 3. Is anyone available this summer? A versatile wing who can score and preferably defend is going to be a hot commodity. Jamal Crawford knows his role but has also proven he can be the guy when needed. Jason Richardson’s stock took a hit in Orlando, but he should still be in demand.
    4. 4. The obvious answer is David West, but his health concerns me. Tracy McGrady actually proved he’s got something left in his tank. Whichever team ends up with him isn’t going to have to pay very much but will get flashes of the old T-Mac. I’m also partial to Jerebko.
    5. 5. I tried several Orlando trades they kept Dwight, but they either just didn’t work or were unrealistic. So running with the Jazz-Pistons trade, why not trade Millsap, Okur, and Bell for Hamilton and Maxiell? Detroit would pay $3 million more this year, but $5 million less the following year while Utah saves a little overall. Maxiell is a good energy guy to come off the bench so Millsap isn’t playing 6th man and his contract expires next year clearing space at PF. Same with Bell in Detroit. He had a bad season but could do well with limited minutes and clear up a spot for one of the Pistons’ many SGs to start. Plus, he’s a much cheaper trade chip. Rip gives Utah a SG that can score consistently and will fit well into the system, and the Jazz supposedly had interest in him before. I don’t think Memo would appreciate still coming off the bench behind Big Ben, but is he even going to play much this season anyway? This biggest problem with this trade is that the Jazz have a lot of good young pieces and this trade would take may take too many minutes from them.  Plus the trade doesn’t fix either team’s logjam, it just shuffles the depth chart around.

  • Jul 4, 20114:23 pm
    by Laser


    easy to pick the stones as a team that needs a trade bad. our perimeter situation has been untenable for three years running, and it never gets any better.

    and all you jokers who think that utah makes a good trade partner just because they have a similar situation up front are crazy. utah’s big men are assets, individually and collectively; our guards are a liability, individually (in most cases) and certainly collectively. rip for jefferson (or anything like it) doesn’t work unless we throw in a first round pick. and i don’t think we can afford to give away any of our first round picks for a while.

  • Jul 4, 20114:46 pm
    by Odeh


    I like the Rip and a first rounder for Al Jefferson if thats what Utah would want.  But that move by itself doesn’t improve us much.  I think it would have to be compounded with moving Ben Gordon to a team with cap space to give us the necessary cap to go after Nene.  I’d also do the same with Maxiell.  And I’m a believer that these guys are movable for cap space. Offer Nene 4 years/60 million, he might be worth alot more but this is my rough estimate.  If that works than we have a legit playoff team 4-5 seed.
    PG Knight/Bynum
    SG Stuckey/White
    SF Jerebko/Daye/Singler
    PF Greg Monroe/ CV
    C  Nene/Jefferson

  • Jul 4, 20115:26 pm
    by mjpress


    I think we should go after DeAndre Jordan, C for the Clippers. He is young with a lot of upside. He and Monroe could be a good big man duo possibly. Plus he will be cheap at this stage in his career. Also I would like to get Arron Afflalo back. I know we have enough guards at the moment but if we could get rid of the clutter, which I don’t know how considering there is no CBA and moving big contracts seems to be such a tough ordeal, but Afflalo is the kind of guard I want for my beloved Pistons. I would seriously consider trades where we get back little in return just so we can lose some of these contracts. No one would give up much for Rip. Prince might fetch a little something. Waiting these contract situations is killing me.

    • Jul 5, 20115:54 am
      by MrHappyMushroom


      Are you crazy, man?! DeAndre Jordan? We drafter Walter Sharpe over him! That was such a great move. And why would we want Alflalo? A great defender with an increasingly deadly 3 point shot and a tremendous locker room presence? No, we got rid of that bad rubbish so that we could sign Ben Gordon to hurl balls at the hoop and watch the other team score. Gosh, you must be mentally ill to want players like these. Good thing you’re not our general manager.

  • Jul 4, 20115:37 pm
    by TealBlackGold


    1.  Orlando, easily.  No explanation needed.
    2.  I promise you Marc Gasol will be the best of these guys.  Chandler, when healthy, under the right minutes is definitely the best of these guys.  However, Gasol has made improvements each and every season, is still fairly young, and is still underrated.
    3.  I’m not interested in signing any of the players who aren’t centers, simply because last time we went after people when we had the money we wound up with Charlie V and Ben Gordon.  At the time, Ben Gordon seemed like a great signing – but that’s the way I feel with this free agent class minus Best Gasol.
    4.  Shannon Brown opted out of his contract.  That could be because he wants more time or more money.  Depending on what he is truly after, I think he could be a great steal.
    Grant Hill can also still produce, I would LOVE nothing more than to see him end his career in Detroit.
    Chuck Hayes might not get as big of contract as he deserves either.
    Thaddeus Young is an athletic dude that can play the 3 and the 4.  If Philly gets him cheap, they get a steal.
    5. Detroit trades: Charlie Villanueva, Richard ‘Rip’ Hamilton, and Terrico White
    Washington trades: JaVale McGee, Rashard Lewis.
    Lewis is top-ten highest paid players for 2 more years, well worth it to acquire a talented, young center and lose a year of Charlie V’s contract.  We throw in Terrico for the athleticism to try and entice them with their ability to run the floor.  Rip can run and shoot as well, and, well, they already had a perimeter-oriented worthless stretch 4 taking up cap-space. A protected pick would probably have to be included.  I would try a 2nd round pick.
    http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=3fvuzvh that’s how it shakes out if you’re interested

    • Jul 4, 201110:38 pm
      by gordbrown


      So basically we trade our problems for their problems, tease it with some youth. That might work. Except that every time Hamilton goes out and tries to run, bad things happen. If he ever could play in a stepped up open offence, that ability has long since left the building. Also there is a reason why Washington is one of the few teams that’s visibly and unquestionbly worse than the Pistons, so their problems are bigger than our problems. So this one could easily blow up.

    • Jul 5, 20118:36 am
      by Scott


      who would be the center for Washington? exactly, they wouldnt HAVE one. #fail

  • Jul 4, 20116:04 pm
    by Scott


    Since we’re all throwing around trade ideas, how bout these:
    CHICAGO RECIEVES: Richard Hamilton
    DETROIT RECIEVES: Kyle Korver and Ronnie Brewer
    UTAH RECIEVES: Ben Gordon, Austin Daye, Jason Maxiell, and Terrico White
    DETROIT RECIEVES: Paul Millsap and Mehmet Okur
    ORLANDO RECIEVES: Charlie Villanueva
    DETROIT RECIEVES: Brandon Bass and Quenten Richardson
    MINNESOTA RECIEVES: Ben Gordon, Austin Daye, and 2 future 2nd round picks
    DETROIT RECIEVES: Michael Beasley and Martell Webster
    Again, these are just ideas.

  • Jul 4, 20116:12 pm
    by Scott


    Heres another idea:
    UTAH RECIEVES: Ben Gordon, Austin Daye, Will Bynum, Terrico White, and a future lottery protected 1st round pick
    DETROIT RECIEVES: Al Jefferson and Raja Bell
    Again, Utah has a crowded frontcourt, and Detroit has a crowded backcourt. This sorta balances things out.

    • Jul 4, 20119:10 pm
      by detroitpcb


      scott, you must be nuts. Daye and Bynum are the two best players in that deal and you give up a first round draft choice?

      thankfully you don’t work for the front office

      • Jul 4, 20119:49 pm
        by Scott


        Let me get this straight: You’re telling me that Bynum and Daye are better than a player who gives you 19pts/10reb/2blks a night?? #FAIL #FACEPALM

      • Jul 4, 201111:07 pm
        by gmehl1977


        Sounds like a desperate pistons fan to me. The trade machine does crazy things to a man!

  • Jul 4, 201111:28 pm
    by tim


    1.  The Celtics.  This teams frontcourt is about as old as it gets (in terms of actual active players).  Is Jeff Green worth bringing back?  As a 3?  It seems unlikely they would move pierce, but its hard to imagine this team making a deep playoff run without a relatively significant roster shuffle.  

    2.  Presuming a similar market value for the first three, I think you have to go with Gasol.  He may not be as good a defender as chandler or as athletic and quick as nene, but at his age, he seems the best choice.

    3.  JJ!  nah,  this is kind of hard.  Even the third tier centers are pretty deep in this offseason (chuck “wagon” hayes, kwame, foster, ratliff, fesenko, haddadi, wilcox-pf/c, etc.).  I’m actually pretty excited about the big men on the market this summer (landry, west, humphries, mcBob).  

    Anyways, back on task.  I will chose 3.

    Caron Butler
    Aaron afflalo

    4.  Leon Powe?  nah, not sure what he still has.  Probably mbah a moute or telfair

    5.  Well, its a pipe dream, but what the hey.  http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=6yxvl8e
    Detroit trades rip, gets memo (saves a year) and asik
    Utah trades memo, gets brewer and korver back!
    Chicago trades asik, brewer and korver, gets rip

  • Jul 5, 20113:00 am
    by Jay


    How about a trade with the TWolves:
    Ben Gordon and a 1st Round pick
    Michael Beasley and Brad Miller (who is believed to be done and Insurance will pick up his contract.
    This would give Detroit an 6’10″, 18 and 8 guy at power forward next to Monroe and would give them the flexibility to have Rip or Stuckey start at the 2 and have a nice 3 guard rotation along with Knight with Stuckey sliding to the 1 when he and rip are together.

  • Jul 5, 20113:00 am
    by Jay


    How about a trade with the TWolves:Ben Gordon and a 1st Round pickforMichael Beasley and Brad Miller (who is believed to be done and Insurance will pick up his contract.This would give Detroit an 6’10″, 18 and 8 guy at power forward next to Monroe and would give them the flexibility to have Rip or Stuckey start at the 2 and have a nice 3 guard rotation along with Knight with Stuckey sliding to the 1 when he and rip are together.http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=3ep4vxk

  • Jul 5, 20119:54 am
    by Gregoire


    First, why should the Wolves give up a guy they just traded for? Second, why should the Pistons give away a First Round Pick for a Veteran Center they already have in Ben Wallace? Third, why should the Pistons want to get Michael Beasley who isn´t realy a Power Forward?
    I still think it´s more likely that the Pistons part ways with Rip instead of Gordon who they think didn´t get the opportunity to play the way he should´ve…A three-guard rotation with Knight, Stuckey and Gordon should work well even if that menas that Bynum won´t see many minutes…The Rip-Jefferson Trade with Utah seems to be a win-win but I still think that this wouldn´t solve the Pistons Frontcourt-problems, still lacking a true Center…I thought with Arnie Kander on the Staff it could´ve been worth the Risk to try rejunivate Greg Oden´s Carrier but 8,8$ Mio is way to much…of the other possibilities on the Market there is no Center who would sign with the Pistons (can´t see one of them leave their Team for another who didn´t make the Playoffs 3 consecutive Years…

    • Jul 5, 201111:21 am
      by Scott


      I see your point. But heres my thinking(just hear me out): If we have a lot of liabilities in our backcourt, than if we’re going to clean it out, we’re going to have to expect to get FRONTCOURT(possible) liabilities back in return. While I would not think the Wolves would give up Miller, I personally would be willing to take a deal BG/future(LOTTERY-PROTECTED) 1st rounder for Beasley/and either Nikola Pekovic or Martell Webster. Again, Minnesota needs help at their two-gaurd spot PLUS they need a solid veteran. While we need to get frontcourt help. Not saying that Minnesota would consider this deal(I still think one of my two Utah proposals would make more sense. See above), but I somewhat understand the logic of wanted to target Minnesota for a trade.

    • Jul 6, 20112:57 am
      by Aruna


      About Miller, I don’t think he’s untouchable.  The thought in that he might be tradable for a useful asset, considering that Kahn likes Darko and they have no-one at the 2-guard slot.  If they like Gordon or Rip it could be a possibility.  With Beasely, he’s a one year tryout of a player with immense talent.  Chances are Tayshaun won’t be back and Daye seems a better fit for the bench.  If it works, we’ve nabbed a player with star potential, if not we’ve cut $4 mil off the cap going into 2012.
      I wouldn’t want to trade a first round pick either, but if Cleveland taking Rip and a first rounder, just to get him off the Pistons books is a legitimate offer, trading picks for salary relief seems to be on the table.  At least this way we get some assets back.

  • Jul 5, 201112:02 pm
    by Scott


    Say what you will, but I still think this 3-way I came up with is AT LEAST worth a shot:
    CHICAGO RECIEVES: Richard Hamilton, Terrico White, and Jeremy Evans
    DETROIT RECIEVES: Paul Millsap, Kyle Korver, Ronnie Brewer, and Mehmet Okur
    UTAH RECIEVES: Ben Gordon, Austin Daye, Jason Maxiell, CJ Watson, and 2 future 2nd round picks(from Detroit)
    DETROITS NEW LINEUP(assuming we re-sign key guys Jerebko and Stuckey):
    UTAHS NEW LINEUP(assuming Kirilenko doesnt re-sign)
    (NOTE: I don’t see why Hayward couldnt possibly start for the Jazz next year. Dont forget that he was the 9th overall pick in 2010 and could be their SF of the future if Kirilenko bolts)
    So there you go. What you think?

  • Jul 6, 201110:14 am
    by Gregoire Wagner


    I don´t think this scenario would be likely. Why should the Pistons give up Gordon, Hamilton, Maxiel and Daye for really just Milsap? Right, it would be nice to get rid of Max´s and Rip´s contract, but Korver and Brewer have practically no value for the Pistons. Okur would clear space for 2012 but can you see Dwight, CP3 or Derron Williams sign with the Pistons? Gordon should be given a chance to play a healthy Season in a System without Rip in front of him and I believe the Pistons see a key asset for the future in Austin Daye. In addition Milsap is an undersized Power Forward and Greg Monroe really is a Power Forward and not a Center at 6-10.The Pistons should be looking for a Center (but not one of the First-Class Free Agents that will all be overpaid). As I mentioned before I don´t see Jefferson as a perfect fit but I´d prefer him over Milsap.

    • Jul 6, 20117:18 pm
      by Scott


      All I know is this. I’ve visited countless trade rumor forums/sites over the last few months and I can tell you that just about EVERYONE views our highest paid players as major liabilities(ie; bad contracts). Therefore, thats the main reason why I don’t really think we have a chance to get Jefferson. I think Chicago is the only team we have a shot at dumping Hamiltons contract on because they do need a consistent veteran scorer at the 2. On the other side, Utah needs help at the shooting gaurd and has a cluttered frontcourt. So basically, If I had to find some way(just about AAANY way) to clear out our backcourt AS WELL AS save us some cap room, this 3-way deal would be it. Not saying it’s a perfect deal cuz it’s not, but I think it’s at least worth a try(or some variation of it).

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