Comments on: The Basketball Jones ranks Isiah Thomas the third-best point guard of last 30 years http://www.pistonpowered.com/2011/07/the-basketball-jones-ranks-isiah-thomas-the-third-best-point-guard-of-last-30-years/ Your Go-To Source For Pistons Coverage Sat, 25 May 2013 07:23:36 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.4.1 By: LIVELIFE10FOLD http://www.pistonpowered.com/2011/07/the-basketball-jones-ranks-isiah-thomas-the-third-best-point-guard-of-last-30-years/comment-page-1/#comment-74457 LIVELIFE10FOLD Thu, 28 Jun 2012 06:11:52 +0000 http://www.pistonpowered.com/2011/07/the-basketball-jones-ranks-isiah-thomas-the-third-best-point-guard-of-last-30-years/#comment-74457 John Stockton was a bad boy.  He would be a guy to learn the fundamentals of PG from.  On the Other hand Zeke played w/fundamentals at IU w/BOBBY KNIGHT winning a championship over the Tar Heels while running the Triangle Offense.  Zeke is the GOAT of typical point guards.  Big O & Magic were Freaks of Nature.  Stockton cannot guard Zeke but Zeke can guard Stockton.  Stat's confim.  Playoff Stat's also confirm Zeke outplayed Stockton when it matter most.  Stockton is GREAT But Zeke was OUT OF THIS WORLD in order to beat a Magic, Legend & Jordan in their primes.  Stockton had 2 chances to beat Jordan but blew the shots.   Zeke knocked down his shots and won Titles.  All the Great Typical 6'2" & under Point Guards have some Zeke in them.  Fundamentals - Stockton; Scoring - Iverson; Ball Handling - CP3/Nash; creating a shot off one leg - Nash & Heart Calvin Murphy.   John Stockton was a bad boy.  He would be a guy to learn the fundamentals of PG from.  On the Other hand Zeke played w/fundamentals at IU w/BOBBY KNIGHT winning a championship over the Tar Heels while running the Triangle Offense.  Zeke is the GOAT of typical point guards.  Big O & Magic were Freaks of Nature.  Stockton cannot guard Zeke but Zeke can guard Stockton.  Stat’s confim.  Playoff Stat’s also confirm Zeke outplayed Stockton when it matter most.  Stockton is GREAT But Zeke was OUT OF THIS WORLD in order to beat a Magic, Legend & Jordan in their primes.  Stockton had 2 chances to beat Jordan but blew the shots.   Zeke knocked down his shots and won Titles.  All the Great Typical 6’2″ & under Point Guards have some Zeke in them.  Fundamentals – Stockton; Scoring – Iverson; Ball Handling – CP3/Nash; creating a shot off one leg – Nash & Heart Calvin Murphy.  

]]> By: Dan C. http://www.pistonpowered.com/2011/07/the-basketball-jones-ranks-isiah-thomas-the-third-best-point-guard-of-last-30-years/comment-page-1/#comment-74335 Dan C. Wed, 27 Jun 2012 11:59:34 +0000 http://www.pistonpowered.com/2011/07/the-basketball-jones-ranks-isiah-thomas-the-third-best-point-guard-of-last-30-years/#comment-74335 Isiah Thomas was a much better player than John Stockton...key arguments in favor of this point: 1)  Isiah was a much more proficient scorer and, unlike Stockton, could and did create his own shot and penetrate when it counted.  Dan, above, gives Stockton a cop out for not winning a championship because he ran into two Bulls "juggernauts."  Isiah Thomas led the Pistons to championships past Michael's Bulls, Larry's Celtics, and Magic's Lakers....and don't forget, despite a referee-Kareem inspired-loss in 1988 in seven games, the Pistons swept the Lakers in 89 and beat the Blazers in five in 90 (the juggernaut Bulls took five to beat the Lakers and six to beat the Blazers the following two seasons).  So, far from requiring a cop out, Isiah played against and beat the cream of the crop in the East and the West, and came away with 2 rings and a finals MVP.   2)  The party line on trying to place Stockton at the top of point guard lists is one, he is a "pure point guard" and the all-time assist leader...What is never mentioned when comparing assists between Magic, Stockton, and Isiah is that of the three only Isiah managed to finish his career in the top five all time in assists despite NEVER having a dominant post player on his team....Magic had Kareem (a top five all time post player) and Stockton had K. Malone (also a top five all time post player)...How many assists would Isiah add to his all-time numbers if all he had to do was draw a double team on the perimeter (which would have been much easier for him to do with his ability to penetrate and create off the dribble) and then kick it down to an easy dunk/5 foot jumper underneath?  So when you compare assists you need to compare not only Stockton to Isiah but Karl Malone to.....James Edwards? Isiah Thomas was a much better player than John Stockton…key arguments in favor of this point:

1)  Isiah was a much more proficient scorer and, unlike Stockton, could and did create his own shot and penetrate when it counted.  Dan, above, gives Stockton a cop out for not winning a championship because he ran into two Bulls “juggernauts.”  Isiah Thomas led the Pistons to championships past Michael’s Bulls, Larry’s Celtics, and Magic’s Lakers….and don’t forget, despite a referee-Kareem inspired-loss in 1988 in seven games, the Pistons swept the Lakers in 89 and beat the Blazers in five in 90 (the juggernaut Bulls took five to beat the Lakers and six to beat the Blazers the following two seasons).  So, far from requiring a cop out, Isiah played against and beat the cream of the crop in the East and the West, and came away with 2 rings and a finals MVP.  

2)  The party line on trying to place Stockton at the top of point guard lists is one, he is a “pure point guard” and the all-time assist leader…What is never mentioned when comparing assists between Magic, Stockton, and Isiah is that of the three only Isiah managed to finish his career in the top five all time in assists despite NEVER having a dominant post player on his team….Magic had Kareem (a top five all time post player) and Stockton had K. Malone (also a top five all time post player)…How many assists would Isiah add to his all-time numbers if all he had to do was draw a double team on the perimeter (which would have been much easier for him to do with his ability to penetrate and create off the dribble) and then kick it down to an easy dunk/5 foot jumper underneath?  So when you compare assists you need to compare not only Stockton to Isiah but Karl Malone to…..James Edwards?

]]> By: khandor http://www.pistonpowered.com/2011/07/the-basketball-jones-ranks-isiah-thomas-the-third-best-point-guard-of-last-30-years/comment-page-1/#comment-32480 khandor Fri, 08 Jul 2011 15:34:12 +0000 http://www.pistonpowered.com/2011/07/the-basketball-jones-ranks-isiah-thomas-the-third-best-point-guard-of-last-30-years/#comment-32480 Dan, 1. Upon what basis would you contend that, "A steal is the most valuable play a defender can make"? 2. A team's on-floor Leader, who is also its best player, and its best scorer, and its best passer, and its best dribble-penetrator, and its most competitive driving force, is MUCH, MUCH, MUCH more than "only part of a championship", especially when that team accomplishes it in an environment like the NBA in consecutive seasons while a host of other all-time great players were still in the league for other franchises. 3. Isiah Lord Thomas III was one of the very best players in the history of the NBA. Period. Dan,
1. Upon what basis would you contend that, “A steal is the most valuable play a defender can make”?
2. A team’s on-floor Leader, who is also its best player, and its best scorer, and its best passer, and its best dribble-penetrator, and its most competitive driving force, is MUCH, MUCH, MUCH more than “only part of a championship”, especially when that team accomplishes it in an environment like the NBA in consecutive seasons while a host of other all-time great players were still in the league for other franchises.
3. Isiah Lord Thomas III was one of the very best players in the history of the NBA. Period.

]]> By: Dan Feldman http://www.pistonpowered.com/2011/07/the-basketball-jones-ranks-isiah-thomas-the-third-best-point-guard-of-last-30-years/comment-page-1/#comment-32465 Dan Feldman Fri, 08 Jul 2011 05:28:13 +0000 http://www.pistonpowered.com/2011/07/the-basketball-jones-ranks-isiah-thomas-the-third-best-point-guard-of-last-30-years/#comment-32465 <p>I still don't see the significance about whom Stockton stole the ball from. A steal is a steal, right? Isiah was a better positional defender than Stockton, but Stockton stole the ball much more frequently, and a steal is the most valuable play a defender can make. Are you really saying Stockton would deserve to rank so much higher if he stuck around for one extra season, signed a minimum contract with the Pistons, played a few minutes behind Billups and won a title? Teams win titles, not individuals. Sure, a title improves a player's resume, but don't put too much stock into something that he's only a part of accomplishing.</p> I still don’t see the significance about whom Stockton stole the ball from. A steal is a steal, right? Isiah was a better positional defender than Stockton, but Stockton stole the ball much more frequently, and a steal is the most valuable play a defender can make.

Are you really saying Stockton would deserve to rank so much higher if he stuck around for one extra season, signed a minimum contract with the Pistons, played a few minutes behind Billups and won a title? Teams win titles, not individuals. Sure, a title improves a player’s resume, but don’t put too much stock into something that he’s only a part of accomplishing.

]]> By: Arthur http://www.pistonpowered.com/2011/07/the-basketball-jones-ranks-isiah-thomas-the-third-best-point-guard-of-last-30-years/comment-page-1/#comment-32464 Arthur Fri, 08 Jul 2011 04:47:58 +0000 http://www.pistonpowered.com/2011/07/the-basketball-jones-ranks-isiah-thomas-the-third-best-point-guard-of-last-30-years/#comment-32464 Dan, come on man. Don't run from the truth. There are better ways to get your exercise in. Stockton took a lot of playoff Ls and is light on clutch memories for most serious basketball fans, even those of us who were old enough to actually watch the games back then.  Stockton's known for longevity, and that does have its place, but hanging around for a long time might work well for homely girls at the school dance, but it should make otherwise smart man overrate John Stockton over Zeke. Zeke lived for the big stage and his career is full of playoff and Allstar Game big moments.  Stockton can't touch that. Likewise, Zeke showed up big on both ends of the court.  Stockton scored more later in his career, and I'll give credit that he dropped a ton of really pretty dimes, but Stock relied on team defense, cause he often got lit up by opposing pgs.  That's why the steals against big men matter.  Stockton wasn't getting those rips against the big dog pgs of his era.  He couldn't play that kind of defense. If you want to give a player a pass for being new to the league, that pass should expire somewhere after the first four seasons.  I picked 1989 because it was the year the Pistons won a title while the bow veteran Utah Jazz were catching a fat L at the hands of the Run TMC Warriors, a fun team but not at all NBA heavyweights. But Dan, you can pick another year if you would like.  Most of the years you have to choose from still end with Isiah Thomas outshining John Stockton in the playoffs.  If Zeke has more rings, more playoff success, and managed to beat most of the NBA luminaries that John Stockton lost to, I does seem counter-intuitive to even try to argue that Stockton was a better player.  When the players from the 84 and 85 NBA Draft all got old and faded, Stockton managed to pace himself better and have more left in the tank.  That makes him number 2? Rings do matter.  The all-time greats hang around or jump ship to the Lakers, Celtics, Heat, or Rockets in order to try and win them.  Isiah and Jordan cried when they won the trophy.  We watched Dirk cry when he won this year.  The argument that rings aren't the end all be all only gets made by players that have no rings. Or their defenders. Dan, come on man. Don’t run from the truth. There are better ways to get your exercise in.

Stockton took a lot of playoff Ls and is light on clutch memories for most serious basketball fans, even those of us who were old enough to actually watch the games back then.  Stockton’s known for longevity, and that does have its place, but hanging around for a long time might work well for homely girls at the school dance, but it should make otherwise smart man overrate John Stockton over Zeke.

Zeke lived for the big stage and his career is full of playoff and Allstar Game big moments.  Stockton can’t touch that.

Likewise, Zeke showed up big on both ends of the court.  Stockton scored more later in his career, and I’ll give credit that he dropped a ton of really pretty dimes, but Stock relied on team defense, cause he often got lit up by opposing pgs.  That’s why the steals against big men matter.  Stockton wasn’t getting those rips against the big dog pgs of his era.  He couldn’t play that kind of defense.

If you want to give a player a pass for being new to the league, that pass should expire somewhere after the first four seasons.  I picked 1989 because it was the year the Pistons won a title while the bow veteran Utah Jazz were catching a fat L at the hands of the Run TMC Warriors, a fun team but not at all NBA heavyweights.

But Dan, you can pick another year if you would like.  Most of the years you have to choose from still end with Isiah Thomas outshining John Stockton in the playoffs.  If Zeke has more rings, more playoff success, and managed to beat most of the NBA luminaries that John Stockton lost to, I does seem counter-intuitive to even try to argue that Stockton was a better player.  When the players from the 84 and 85 NBA Draft all got old and faded, Stockton managed to pace himself better and have more left in the tank.  That makes him number 2?

Rings do matter.  The all-time greats hang around or jump ship to the Lakers, Celtics, Heat, or Rockets in order to try and win them.  Isiah and Jordan cried when they won the trophy.  We watched Dirk cry when he won this year.  The argument that rings aren’t the end all be all only gets made by players that have no rings.

Or their defenders.

]]> By: Dirtgrain http://www.pistonpowered.com/2011/07/the-basketball-jones-ranks-isiah-thomas-the-third-best-point-guard-of-last-30-years/comment-page-1/#comment-32460 Dirtgrain Thu, 07 Jul 2011 22:57:41 +0000 http://www.pistonpowered.com/2011/07/the-basketball-jones-ranks-isiah-thomas-the-third-best-point-guard-of-last-30-years/#comment-32460 I feel that Isaiah had a special level of competitiveness, to the point of embarrassment at times, that, more than anything, got the Pistons their championships.  He was a clutch performer (although the inbounds to Bird is something I don't think I ever saw Stockton do) more so than Stockton, one-on-one, scoring the ball with a whole team trying to stop him.  Stockton was a better outside shooter, but I won't call him a better defender.  Thomas's defense often led the Pistons.  In fact, in a crazy, come-from-way-behind victory at Utah, I remember Thomas visibly stepping up his defense--his teammates followed. Homer tendencies aside, I don't think most GMs would chose Stockton over Thomas, if they wanted to win a championship or two.  That makes Thomas the greater player. It is interesting to consider how both would have done on the other team.  I don't see Stockton leading Detroit's championship teams to championships in place of Thomas.  I don't know if Thomas could have led Utah to a championship.  I do think Karl Malone's stats would have been lower if he played with Thomas (that's an easy claim to make, considering the fame of the Stockon-Malone pick and roll). I feel that Isaiah had a special level of competitiveness, to the point of embarrassment at times, that, more than anything, got the Pistons their championships.  He was a clutch performer (although the inbounds to Bird is something I don’t think I ever saw Stockton do) more so than Stockton, one-on-one, scoring the ball with a whole team trying to stop him.  Stockton was a better outside shooter, but I won’t call him a better defender.  Thomas’s defense often led the Pistons.  In fact, in a crazy, come-from-way-behind victory at Utah, I remember Thomas visibly stepping up his defense–his teammates followed.
Homer tendencies aside, I don’t think most GMs would chose Stockton over Thomas, if they wanted to win a championship or two.  That makes Thomas the greater player.
It is interesting to consider how both would have done on the other team.  I don’t see Stockton leading Detroit’s championship teams to championships in place of Thomas.  I don’t know if Thomas could have led Utah to a championship.  I do think Karl Malone’s stats would have been lower if he played with Thomas (that’s an easy claim to make, considering the fame of the Stockon-Malone pick and roll).

]]> By: khandor http://www.pistonpowered.com/2011/07/the-basketball-jones-ranks-isiah-thomas-the-third-best-point-guard-of-last-30-years/comment-page-1/#comment-32450 khandor Thu, 07 Jul 2011 15:59:45 +0000 http://www.pistonpowered.com/2011/07/the-basketball-jones-ranks-isiah-thomas-the-third-best-point-guard-of-last-30-years/#comment-32450 It isn't close between Kidd [by a wide margin] and Payton when you consider all phases of the game. It isn’t close between Kidd [by a wide margin] and Payton when you consider all phases of the game.

]]> By: khandor http://www.pistonpowered.com/2011/07/the-basketball-jones-ranks-isiah-thomas-the-third-best-point-guard-of-last-30-years/comment-page-1/#comment-32449 khandor Thu, 07 Jul 2011 15:55:01 +0000 http://www.pistonpowered.com/2011/07/the-basketball-jones-ranks-isiah-thomas-the-third-best-point-guard-of-last-30-years/#comment-32449 Dan, re: <i>"... if Isiah played with Karl Malone, he probably wouldn’t have been the best player on his team, either."</i> Hopefully this is not a serious comment on your part. Isiah Lord Thomas III was a much, much, much better basketball player than Karl Malone. Dan,
re: <i>”… if Isiah played with Karl Malone, he probably wouldn’t have been the best player on his team, either.”</i>
Hopefully this is not a serious comment on your part.
Isiah Lord Thomas III was a much, much, much better basketball player than Karl Malone.

]]> By: Dan Feldman http://www.pistonpowered.com/2011/07/the-basketball-jones-ranks-isiah-thomas-the-third-best-point-guard-of-last-30-years/comment-page-1/#comment-32448 Dan Feldman Thu, 07 Jul 2011 15:43:02 +0000 http://www.pistonpowered.com/2011/07/the-basketball-jones-ranks-isiah-thomas-the-third-best-point-guard-of-last-30-years/#comment-32448 <p>Levi, Jason Kidd ranked fourth on Velasco's list, and that seems about right. I could go back-and-forth on Kidd and Gary Payton for 4-5, but I'd lean toward Kidd.</p> Levi, Jason Kidd ranked fourth on Velasco’s list, and that seems about right. I could go back-and-forth on Kidd and Gary Payton for 4-5, but I’d lean toward Kidd.

]]> By: Dan Feldman http://www.pistonpowered.com/2011/07/the-basketball-jones-ranks-isiah-thomas-the-third-best-point-guard-of-last-30-years/comment-page-1/#comment-32447 Dan Feldman Thu, 07 Jul 2011 15:41:11 +0000 http://www.pistonpowered.com/2011/07/the-basketball-jones-ranks-isiah-thomas-the-third-best-point-guard-of-last-30-years/#comment-32447 <p>Danny, if Isiah played with Karl Malone, he probably wouldn't have been the best player on his team, either. What difference does that make, though? We're comparing Stockton and Thomas, not Stockton and Thomas and Malone. Don’t make rings the be-all, end-all. You’re disrespecting Isiah’s teammates and overrating Stockton’s if you think that’s a fair comparison. You have a valid point that Isiah won his titles in the NBA’s golden era, but Stockton helped Utah win 64 and 62 games, and the Jazz lost in the Finals those years only because they ran into a pair of Bulls teams that rank among the best teams ever. The 97 and 98 Jazz were title-caliber teams in average years, but they were unlucky enough to run into a juggernaut.</p> Danny, if Isiah played with Karl Malone, he probably wouldn’t have been the best player on his team, either. What difference does that make, though? We’re comparing Stockton and Thomas, not Stockton and Thomas and Malone.

Don’t make rings the be-all, end-all. You’re disrespecting Isiah’s teammates and overrating Stockton’s if you think that’s a fair comparison. You have a valid point that Isiah won his titles in the NBA’s golden era, but Stockton helped Utah win 64 and 62 games, and the Jazz lost in the Finals those years only because they ran into a pair of Bulls teams that rank among the best teams ever. The 97 and 98 Jazz were title-caliber teams in average years, but they were unlucky enough to run into a juggernaut.

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