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Rating the NBA’s shooting guards

I wrote about the NBA’s shooting guards for ESPN’s 5-on-5, and I answered Richard Hamilton to one of the questions. I bet you can’t guess which one. Give up?

3. Who’s the most overrated shooting guard in the NBA?

Dan Feldman, Piston Powered: Richard Hamilton. Hamilton’s production began slipping a few years ago, but his reputation hasn’t yet. He’s a malcontent off the court and only plays well on it when he’s completely focused. That doesn’t happen enough anymore. Bulls and Celtics fans, calm down. Hamilton isn’t the answer to your prayers.

The line “but his reputation hasn’t yet” should include the caveat, “outside of Detroit.”

Here are the other four questions:

  • Who’s the best shooting guard in the NBA today?
  • Who’s the most underrated shooting guard in the NBA?
  • Who’s the most promising shooting guard in the NBA?
  • Who’s the best shooting guard of all time?

148 Comments

  • Jul 26, 201112:12 pm
    by vic

    Reply

    thanks a lot, we could have got him off our hands.

    I don’t think he’s that bad though, just overpaid

  • Jul 26, 201112:17 pm
    by Jason

    Reply

    What a disgrace we have you representing Detroit on ESPN.

    Seriously man your comment is a joke.  The stats don’t even back you up.  Are you only looking at his PPG stat boy?  Cause if you notice when his ppg starting slipping his assists per game went up.

    And if you even refer to last year you are even more stupid.  Last year was a mess.  Rip had a bad coach and a not so good point guard.  The organization was for sale.  Again it was just a mess.

    Even so he still won some games for us.

    Dude, that comment flat out is so disrespectful its not even funny.  Do you work for TMZ?

    I will admit RIP is probably going to be gone and its probably the best move for the organization. But as huge fan of basketball I would never disrespect someone who is a PURE competitor and has won a NCAA and NBA championship.

    Just my two cents asshole!

    • Jul 26, 201112:25 pm
      by Jason

      Reply

      Lets add that he also has to share time with another starting shooting guard.  If you count Stuckey that is two people he had to share time with.

    • Jul 26, 201112:35 pm
      by brgulker

      Reply

      You deserve a ban.

      • Jul 26, 201112:36 pm
        by Jason

        Reply

        Why cause you can’t understand that FREE SPEACH IS A TWO WAY STREET?

        • Jul 26, 201112:40 pm
          by brgulker

          Reply

          lol, “speach”

          • Jul 26, 20111:25 pm
            by Laser

            on one hand, i don’t think anyone would think feldman would be the least bit out of line for banning this guy. mostly because he tends to lower the discourse, and his comments could generally be taken as abusive.
             
            on the other hand, a noticeable portion of the time i agree with him in spirit. i am MUCH more aligned with jason’s thoughts on rip hamilton than on feldman’s. it absolutely blows my mind that feldman seems to prefer throwing rip under the bus and making him the primary scapegoat for his beloved pistons, rather than face realities surrounding rip’s statistical and attitudinal (holy shit no underline. that’s an actual word!) decline. there are so many factors completely out of rip’s control that explain what’s happened to him, and i have no clue why someone who analyzes basketball as a primary hobby would just ignore them all outright and pretend like rip has been put in a position to succeed these past three years.

          • Jul 26, 20111:46 pm
            by Dan Feldman

            Laser, when I have ever called Rip the primary problem? He’s one of many problems. I think you’ve seen me critical of nearly everyone in the organization, from the top down. That includes Rip, but it also includes nearly everyone else.*

            *I can’t recall writing something negative about Greg Monroe, but he’s the only one.

          • Jul 26, 20112:17 pm
            by Laser

            well he certainly bears the brunt of your ire more than every other individual combined, so he very much seems like your primary problem by a wide margin. you don’t have to call him the #1 problem for me to get that message.
             
            it’s very frustrating to read, and it’s not fair to the guy. i hate to defend a millionaire, but the only thing rip’s done wrong is NOT take the lot he was handed with stride. i’d prefer to see him smile and concentrate on how lucky he is to make so much money playing a game he’s supposed to love while the rest of us have to give out handjobs to make rent, but he’s a competitor. we know who he is. he has a chip on his shoulder and a bad attitude. we used to like these things about him, and it would be insane to expect him to change now. this guy used to be the baddest of the “Bad Boys part two” until sheed came along, and even then he was a deceptively close second. always came off as kind of a jerk, always getting t’ed up.
             
            you can’t put someone with a documented chip on his shoulder into a predictably bad situation and expect him to take it in stride. just blame joe 100% and give it up already. all rip did was sign a contract that was offered to him and then perform and behave exactly as should have been expected.

          • Jul 26, 20112:58 pm
            by brgulker

            He’s also performed very poorly relative to his compensation. That may not be fixable, given his age, but it’s not any less true.

    • Jul 26, 20111:29 pm
      by Wall-E

      Reply

      WOW. First off, can we all just take a moment to appreciate the job Dan and “Robo-Patrick” are doing to drum up stories, in a time when there ovbiously are none. I really appreciate the effort and I check back here daily to get my nba fix and see what you guys are cooking up.

      Secondly, while I don’t agree with Dan that he is the MOST overrated SG in the league, Rip lost just about all the respect that I had for him last year. Detroit and the Pistons organization have been instrumental in making Rip’s career a success. Lest we forget, Rip was one of those guys that was given up on by the team that drafted him. Joe D picked him up as a reclaimation project; paired him with good coaches; formed a team around him; …and the rest is history. That’s not to say that he played no role in his success. Indeed, the organization and the fans owe him respect and gratitude as well for his hard work. However, without the team and the coaching and the organization, Richard Hamilton could have gone down in NBA history as another Ron Mercer. Instead, he gets to be remembered as an All-Star and a Champion. As such, (and at least out of respect for Joe D) last years actions cannot be veiwed as anything but immature and petty. Rip could have veiwed this as a chance to repay the organization for his own reclaimation and help out with the theirs. Sadly, that did not happen and it shattered my belief in him. I had hoped for better than that from Rip. I had hoped that he would age grace-fully and grate-fully, and be an ambassador for the organization and fans that beleived in him. I had hoped to see him for years to come as a part of the Pistons organization. Now that will not happen.

      I would bet that Dan is neither “stupid”, “disrespectful”, or an “asshole”. …Just profoundly dissappointed.

      • Jul 26, 20111:44 pm
        by Dan Feldman

        Reply

        Interesting point, Wall-E. I don’t believe, as many other do, that the Pistons owe Rip some intangible level of respect. Conversely, I don’t quite agree that Rip owes the Pistons anything. Basically, I don’t think either side owes the other more than whats in Rip’s contract with the Pistons.

        But there are, and should be, consequences for both side’s actions. If the Pistons have treated Rip unfairly, he’s certainly done plenty to make them pay. But regardless of how the Pistons have treated Rip, he’s certainly done plenty to hurt his own value.

        Just curious, who do you think is the NBA’s most overrated shooting guard?

        • Jul 26, 20111:55 pm
          by tarsier

          Reply

          A couple months ago, Kobe Bryant. But his reputation took way too big a hit for one mediocre and one poor playoff series (Just like Dirk was severely underrated a couple moths ago but now he is probably somewhat overrated). On the other hand, the reputation deserved that hit but for other things–namely, the gradual deterioration of his all-around game. How was this man still all defense first team this year?

    • Jul 26, 20111:31 pm
      by Jason

      Reply

      Abusive?  I am sorry if I am mistaken that we are all adults here.

      Like I said free speech is a two way street.

      Please let me know if I should tone it down for you.

      • Jul 26, 20111:41 pm
        by Patrick Hayes

        Reply

        Jason, we are all adults here, that’s the point. I don’t think your dissenting comments have ever been banned, edited, etc. here. Your disagreements have been tolerated, allowed and encouraged, even if I will passionately argue back with you if I believe in something. But seriously … calling someone an asshole is out of line and unnecessary.

        I just have never understood the adversarial nature of your comments. Read through the Chris Paul thread yesterday. It’s full of people with very strong opinions one way or the other and, with only a few exceptions, the tone is civil. There’s no reason you can’t state your beliefs and argue passionately for them here and leave out name-calling.

        • Jul 26, 20111:49 pm
          by Jason

          Reply

          Ok I don’t take the comment back but I won’t use it anymore. 

          Can I call him a jackass?  It still has ass in it so I am not sure if you guys would be offended.

          • Jul 26, 20113:51 pm
            by tarsier

            You’re kinda missing the point. it’s not about what is and isn’t “crossing the line.” It’s about being friendly and courteous despite having opposing perspectives. I can’t speak for others, but my feelings would not be hurt by you calling me whatever you please. However, your rudeness would unimpress me and make the whole debate less enjoyable.

      • Jul 26, 20114:57 pm
        by jayg108

        Reply

        It was shocking that nobody else saw Rip as Most Overrated.  That was actually saying the others didn’t even rate Rip that well.  (Monta is clearly a better scorer, faster, and more clutch.)
         
        Tarsier: very well said.

  • Jul 26, 201112:28 pm
    by RyanK

    Reply

    Anyone who thinks he’s slipped hasn’t watched the games.  His numbers are down with his effort level.  When he turns it up, he’s a cold blooded killer out there.  Yes, he has a terrible attitude, but in the right situation he can play with any scoring guard in the league.
     
    This is another article where someone if just reading the headlines and looking at the stat box.  Totally ignoring what’s really going on.

    • Jul 26, 201112:35 pm
      by Jason

      Reply

      I agree Ryan.  He is a competitor and it shines through his play.  If you can’t see that then switch to another sport or something.

      Any you couldn’t of said it better than “in the right situation”.  I mean could he have been in any of a worse situation last year?

    • Jul 26, 201112:35 pm
      by Patrick Hayes

      Reply

      You say yourself that he has a terrible attitude. Isn’t that part of being overrated? If he doesn’t bring consistent effort, he is not worth his contract. If he has a bad attitude here, who is to say he won’t have a bad attitude elsewhere? He’s a SG who can’t create his own shot, who is on the wrong side of 30 and who has given questionable effort for going on three seasons now. On top of that, he’s paid like an All-Star and he hasn’t produced at an All-Star level for quite some time now. There might be more overrated guards out there, but Rip is definitely high on the list.

      • Jul 26, 201112:39 pm
        by Jason

        Reply

        You can’t win this argument Patrick.  Its impossible.

      • Jul 26, 201112:45 pm
        by RyanK

        Reply

        “He’s a SG who can’t create his own shot”
         
        You’ve totally discredited yourself with this statement.  Either you have never watched him play or you don’t understand the game.  His ability to get a quality shot at anytime is among the very best in the league.  Coming off screens, taking a couple dribbles, using his length advantage…your comment is laughable!  Put the ball in his hands and he’ll create for others…12 assists anytime he wants!
         
        His attitude is a result of his role, bad coaching, and bad management.  Sure, a true professional should play hard all the time…Rip is a bitch in my opinion.  But look through the attitude and you can see one of the top scoring guards in the league.  He’s a lockdown defender, can handle the ball, and has had the best mid range game in the league for the last decade.
         
        He’s the most underrated scoring guard in the league.  Put him on a contender that has a chance with a role he accepts and you’d see an allstar on the floor.  Overpaid…and the rest of them aren’t?

        • Jul 26, 201112:50 pm
          by Patrick Hayes

          Reply

          @Ryan:

          Really? I’ve discredited myself by saying he can’t consistently create his own shot? Then why do all of his defenders constantly blame the lack of a PG as a defense for Rip’s game slipping? If he needs to play next to a better playmaker, then yeah, I question his ability to be a shot creator.

          The fact is, when the Pistons have needed to put the ball in Rip’s hands more post Billups trade, his shot selection and shooting percentage have become significantly worse. Yes, I think he could be better next to better players, particularly with a better player at PG. But no, he’s not one one of the best shot creators in the league. At this point in his career, I’d be fine with him in a role as a third or fourth option on a good team. Unfortunately, he’s paid like and behaves like a first option, and he clearly isn’t one.

          • Jul 26, 20111:04 pm
            by Jason

            But your wrong Patrick.  If he cutting, slashing, and moving around picks he is still creating a shot for himself.  He just needs someone to get it to him correctly.

            Yes he is not taking guys one on one in isolation but isolation isnt the only way to score.

            Why you have to say at this point in his career you are fine with him being a third or fourth option.  Do you really think teams define who there third or fourth option is?

          • Jul 26, 20111:14 pm
            by Patrick Hayes

            Yes, he knows how to get shots for himself. But he can only do it in one way. He doesn’t get to the line much. He’s not a particularly good finisher. And he’s not good at putting the ball on the floor. Those things all make him limited offensively. Doesn’t mean he was a bad player when he was at his best. He was very efficient. But just the fact that he relies on another player to “get him the ball correctly” is all the proof necessary to show that he’s not a shot creator. His shots are dependent on other factors.

            And no, teams may not tell guys “you are our fourth option.” But they do tell them that indirectly through things like shots and minutes distribution. Hamilton has shown that if you cut his shot attempts and if you cut his minutes, he becomes a very unhappy player.

        • Jul 26, 20111:01 pm
          by Patrick Hayes

          Reply

          Also, this is the most telling line of your comment: “Put him on a contender that has a chance with a role he accept.” Why does he get to choose whether or not to accept his role? Does he really have that kind of clout in the league? Hell, McGrady is a much bigger star and was a way better player than Rip, and he didn’t even have the clout to come in last season and demand a role.

          And you act as if he’s the only guy in the league with a mid-range game. He’s not. Ray Allen is a fantastic mid-range player. You know why he shoots threes more? Because that is a more valuable skill than taking long 18 foot jumpers all the time. Deng has a good mid-range game. Durant has an insanely good mid-range game. So does Dirk. It’s not as if Rip has some extremely rare skillset.

          • Jul 26, 20111:06 pm
            by Jason

            So basically you just compared Rip to very good players.  Thanks!

          • Jul 26, 20111:10 pm
            by Patrick Hayes

            Not at all. There’s no comparison. Those guys are all way better than Rip. So much better than Rip it’s laughable actually. They are better because they have more skills than just the stupidly overrated ‘mid-range game.’ Allen and Durant are both more valuable because they are deadly 3-point shooters. Durant gets to the line all the time, which makes him way more valuable. Deng is one of the two or three best perimeter defenders in the league. Dirk shoots, rebounds, gets to the line and has even become solid defensively. They all have many, many more dimensions to their games than Rip.

            Rip is fine. He was a solid, fringe All-Star caliber player for a long time. But he was never even the best player on the Pistons and for some reason, he’s treated by some fans like he’s among the elite of the elite at the SG position, so much so that constant excuses are made for his poor attitude and declining shooting percentage.

          • Jul 26, 20111:20 pm
            by Jason

            You are wrong though man.  I don’t think anyone is saying he is this elite great player.  He is a great competitor and we would never of won the championship without him.  Rip is a PROVEN winner and you can’t say that about a lot of shooting guards. 

            Again I think its unintelligent to use last years season to come to some conclusion regarding anyone on the Pistons. 

            The stupidly overrated midrange game?  Is it cause you don’t understand it?

          • Jul 26, 20111:32 pm
            by Patrick Hayes

            “I don’t think anyone is saying he is this elite great player.”

            Well, maybe you didn’t say it, but Ryan’s comment, which I was originally responding to, said, “He’s the most underrated scoring guard in the league.” That was the main comment I’ve been disagreeing with in this thread. I don’t think that’s close to the truth.

            “He is a great competitor and we would never of won the championship without him.”

            I’m not disputing that, but it’s irrelevant to the question Dan responded to in his post, which was “who is the most overrated SG right now?” If we’re talking full body of work, of course it’s not Hamilton. But if we’re talking right now, when you factor in his shooting percentage decline, his poor attitude, his age and all of that relative to his current salary, then yes, I think it’s fair to say he’s overrated right now. At his price, with his question marks, I don’t think he’s a good investment. Now, if he reaches some sort of buyout and a contending team signs him to a modest contract, that’s a different story. I think there’s a good chance he could out-produce that contract, play with more motivation and not be overrated.

            “Again I think its unintelligent to use last years season to come to some conclusion regarding anyone on the Pistons. “

            With Rip though, he’s going on three straight poor seasons. And it hasn’t just been about coaching, although granted, the coaching has been bad. He’s getting older. He’s been injured quite a bit over that span. And as Ben Gulker and I have both pointed out in this thread, his shooting percentage declining is a troubling stat when coupled with his age. The fact is, he’s at an age when a lot of SGs decline.

            “The stupidly overrated midrange game?  Is it cause you don’t understand it?”

            I do understand it. It’s a skill, for sure. But the NBA is a different game now. The 3-point shot is much more valuable than a guy who can hit in the 15-18 range. Hamilton became a passable 3-point shooter in his career in that if you left him open, he’d probably hit it. But the fact that he never developed into what anyone would call an elite outside shooter hurts his overall value as does the fact that since most of his shots come in the mid-range, that means he doesn’t get in the lane or draw fouls that often. He’s had a nice career and I don’t mean to suggest he hasn’t. But his skillset is just not as valuable as guards who have 3-point range and get to the line as big parts of their arsenal.

          • Jul 26, 20111:41 pm
            by Jason

            I am sorry I just don’t think you watch the games.  Or at least you dont how to watch the games.

            Again my anger comes from Dan’s stupid comment on ESPN.

            PistonsPowered more like Pistonhaters!

        • Jul 26, 20114:00 pm
          by tarsier

          Reply

          12 assists anytime he wants? Really? Steve Nash, Chris Paul, and Rajon Rondo can’t get 12 assists anytime they want and they are the best distributors in the game. I understand the use of hyperbole, but this is ludicrous. In his top season, Rip averaged 5 a game, which is really impressive for an SG who is primarily a scorer/defender and who plays in a slow offense with Billups running the point. However, that doesn’t come close to the 12 you’ve insinuated he can drop with ease.

    • Jul 26, 201112:40 pm
      by brgulker

      Reply

      I’m not convinced. Prove to me that his dramatic decline in FG% over the past three seasons is due to effort, not age.

      It’s easy to make the case he’s aging and declining, because there’s a mountain of evidence that demonstrates that such a decline happens to players right around 30 years of age.

      The effort claim is significantly more difficult to substantiate.

      • Jul 26, 201112:44 pm
        by Jason

        Reply

        Agree with you brgulker.  I don’t know from watching games you can say he doesn’t bring “consistent effort”.  Its ok to get frustrated sometimes. Basketball is an emotional sport due to many reasons. 

      • Jul 26, 20111:51 pm
        by Dan Feldman

        Reply

        Gulker, I think it’s a combination of both. I think Rip’s age has made him much less effective than he was a few years ago, but I see many spurts where he still plays reasonably well. He’s moving without the ball, engaged defensively and a willing passer. But he has to give total effort and focus to play that way. In the past, I think he could still play well without total effort and focus. His aging has exposed that flaw.

  • Jul 26, 201112:36 pm
    by brgulker

    Reply

    I would go with Kobe as the most overrated SG. Certainly, he’s a great player and one of the best SGs of his generation, but the general consensus seems to be that he’s one of the greatest SGs of all time. I think not.

    /flame war begun’d

    • Jul 26, 201112:38 pm
      by Jason

      Reply

      Well after this comment you should be banned!

    • Jul 26, 20111:54 pm
      by Dan Feldman

      Reply

      Gulker, the second-best shooting guard in the NBA right now is…? Really curious who you’d pick.

      • Jul 26, 20113:14 pm
        by brgulker

        Reply

        Tough question!

        If we’re talking about a one-year, all in situation, I’d take a healthy Manu.

        If we’re talking about who you’d want as your franchise SG for the next five years, I’d probably take Durant (if you can call him a SG).

        Iggy’s another guy who plays more 3 than 2, but I’d prefer him to Kobe at the cost.

        • Jul 26, 20113:19 pm
          by Patrick Hayes

          Reply

          I was convinced you were going to pick Afflalo. Haha.

          • Jul 26, 20113:23 pm
            by brgulker

            Heh. He’s probably the best bargain at SG in the league. 

            I’m curious to see what kind of contract JR Smith will get.

          • Jul 26, 20119:50 pm
            by Mike Payne

            Afflalo is far and away my preference for most underrated, even moreso than Eric Gordon, who is the media favorite for that slot… kind of making him, uh, medium-rated?

          • Jul 26, 201110:07 pm
            by Patrick Hayes

            Yeah, I would’ve picked Afflalo for most underrated too, although I do love Eric Gordon. Playing with Blake is going to make Gordon fairly rated though, if not now, then very soon.

            Gordon is underrated in the sense that I think people think of top shooting guards and he doesn’t come to mind immediately, but then they hear his name and they’re like, “Oh yeah … he’s good.” With Afflalo, I’ve found that if I talk about him being really good, people act like I’m insane. I know that last statement seems hard to believe with all of the reasonable dialogue in this thread.

        • Jul 26, 20113:30 pm
          by Dan Feldman

          Reply

          You really think, right now, Manu is better than Kobe?

          • Jul 26, 20113:55 pm
            by brgulker

            If he’s healthy, yes.

          • Jul 26, 20114:04 pm
            by tarsier

            Wow, while Kobe is overrated, or at least was before these playoffs, Manu is a tiny upgrade over Ellis on defense. And I would argue slightly worse on offense although that is debatable. And if Kobe is not one of the greatest SGa of all time, who are your top 5 all time. Off the top of my head, the only one other than Jordan you can make a case for as better than Kobe is Jerry West. And that would be a stretch.

          • Jul 27, 20119:08 am
            by brgulker

            Manu worse than Ellis on offense? No way.

            Drexler and Wade are both better than Kobe.

            The thing that really seals Kobe’s fat as a great player is his longevity and durability. He’s played at a very high level for a very long time, and he’s missed very few games.

            But, I would not say Kobe’s the best player of his generation (let alone all time), and he’s not currently the best SG in the game.

          • Jul 27, 201110:37 am
            by tarsier

            I certainly agree that Wade is better than Kobe. But his career to date is definitely inferior to Kobe’s career to date which is usually what one is talking about when discussing all-time greats. And even assuming you put Jordan, West, Wade, and Drexler ahead of Kobe, that would still make Kobe one of the top 5 SGs of all time. That wouldn’t qualify him as one of the greatest SGs ever?

            And yeah, I’d take Monta over Manu on offense. I mean, the only downside is slightly more turnovers but that is to be expected with the ball in his hands so much. He scores more and more efficiently. He sets teammates up more even though he has less good ones to set up. And he gets to the line more. Why would you prefer Manu?

          • Jul 27, 201111:25 am
            by brgulker

            There’s a difference between being one of the all-time best SGs and the GOAT. That’s what I was referencing.

            No way Kobe is in my conversation for GOAT.

  • Jul 26, 20111:12 pm
    by Jason

    Reply

    Kind of funny. I just received an email from the Palace Locker Room and on there website Prince and Rip jerseys are going for 63.60.  

    Wonder if they are coming back next year?  lol

    I guess its only an online sale but I may pick up a Prince jersey.

    • Jul 26, 20111:21 pm
      by Jason

      Reply

      I meant to say AUTHENTIC jerseys!

  • Jul 26, 20111:23 pm
    by Ali Boraby

    Reply

    This website is becoming a joke. I use it simply because I dont know where else I can get Pistons only feedback. And watching you the editors back each other up is becoming increasingly funny and awkward. 

    To throw Rip under the bus like that is terrible. I was shocked to see someone, especially from PistonPowered, say that.  

    Be professional.

    • Jul 26, 20111:38 pm
      by Jason

      Reply

      Ali you are awesome. 

      This website is a joke sometimes.  Even though they are up to date I just can’t stand these guys.  I will NEVER have respect for Dan.   Complete low ball move with the Hamilton comment on ESPN.  Not only was it on ESPN but the comment comes from a guy whos website is called PistonPowered.

      And they wonder why I am say such strong comments on here.

    • Jul 26, 20111:47 pm
      by Patrick Hayes

      Reply

      Might I suggest a new Pistons community that would perhaps be more up both your alleys?

    • Jul 26, 20111:55 pm
      by Dan Feldman

      Reply

      Ali, how do you define professionalism?

      • Jul 26, 20112:02 pm
        by Jason

        Reply

        Dan Patrick

        Move onto something else.  You should let me take over your website.  You can go work for ESPN and talk about athletes problems instead of showing sports highlights like they should.

        Thanks
        Jason

        • Jul 26, 20112:06 pm
          by Jason

          Reply

          I meant Dan & Patrick

      • Jul 26, 20114:03 pm
        by Ali Boraby

        Reply

        I define professionalism as not getting into back and forth arguments with posters on your community like this is some sort of playground. Stand your ground yet be professional. 

        And that also comes with a loyalty to some degree. Joe Dumars would never throw Rip under the bus like that, even if it was true.

        • Jul 26, 20114:14 pm
          by Dan Feldman

          Reply

          Then, I don’t think you’ll be satisfied reading this site. We discuss basketball in the comments, and that means responding to different points of view. We encourage our reads to do the same.

          And why should I be loyal to Hamilton? I’m loyal to the truth. The truth can be subjective, and we can disagree on how we perceive it, but that’s my end goal, not to appease Hamilton.

          • Jul 26, 20114:26 pm
            by Jason

            Your not loyal to the truth you liar.  Your a fraud.

          • Jul 27, 201110:44 am
            by tarsier

            You really don’t think he is loyal to the truth as he sees it? What incentive does he have to straight up lie? Also, your comments, besides being the most insulting on this site, are often the most poorly written. It’s absurd to the point of a cliche. You are so sure that you know better than everyone else that you don’t back much up, you insult people for seeing things differently, and you make cringe-worthy errors all along the way. I’m sorry because this is the closest I’ve come to personally attacking someone on the internet. But every time “Jason” pops up in the comments, it markedly reduces my enjoyment of following the thoughts of Pistons fans.

  • Jul 26, 20111:45 pm
    by Jason

    Reply

    Is it possible to email Rip on Twitter?  I want to send him this link to show that we are backing him up. 

    Or is anyone on twitter? Can they send him this link?

  • Jul 26, 20111:55 pm
    by Laser

    Reply

    my take is this. feldman and hayes will disagree.
     
    it’s perplexing and borderline irresponsible to blather on about rip like he’s the biggest problem on this team and that he can’t play anymore and all that rot. i say borderline irresponsible, because of the perception that you two are basketball experts or insiders or authorities on the pistons or the NBA. i guess it’s a little like holding mcdonald’s responsible for making its customers fat, so i can’t roast you for this; you’re here to give your unadulterated opinions and that’s what you do. but even though this website does grant you some access basketball opinionists like myself can’t enjoy, it would probably behoove you to keep in mind that some people assume some kind of pistons affiliation and take your words as the gospel.
     
    as for rip, it’s getting ridiculous. nobody on this team has been any good the last three years, least of all our guards. there are too many perimeter players, shooting guards especially. there’s a desperate lack of playmaking. we don’t have big men who can spread the floor. everybody’s one-dimensional, and none of the pieces fit. the minutes and rotations have been absurdly inconsistent. we haven’t had a coach worth a damn in years and years, some would say since 2005. the team is an absolute trainwreck. on the floor, in the locker room, everywhere.
     
    joe dumars has put ABSOLUTELY NOBODY in a position to succeed here. everyone on the roster should be so much more than they can be on this team. even when a team looks decent on paper but underachieves, like say the Bucks last year, the GM pretty much needs to shoulder the burden of responsibility. with the pistons, joe dumars is the man to blame by such a wide margin it’s insane. there’s nothing else to look at once you’ve identified his myriad missteps.
     
    if i told you at the time of his extension that for the next three years rip would be sharing minutes and shots with rodney stuckey (who would never ever develop into a reasonable point guard) and either ben gordon or allen iverson, in an overcrowded perimeter, without the benefit of big men to spread the floor or set quality picks, would you project that his production would be good? and if not, knowing him, would you project that his attitude would be sunny? there comes a time to set aside some bias and point the finger in the right direction. let’s toss “HOAM” out the window and replace it with “HAAS” (hamilton as a scapegoat, ‘natch). it’s got a nice ring to it, i think.

    • Jul 26, 20112:05 pm
      by Dan Feldman

      Reply

      When have Patrick or I ever said Rip can’t play anymore? I think we’ve both consistently maintained that he’s still a capable NBA player — as long as his attitude, effort and focus return to quality levels.

      You continue to conveniently ignore the fact that Dumars had to abort his rebuilding plan one year in when Karen Davidson put the team up for sale, that he probably would’ve traded Rip for Carlos Boozer, that Gordon would’ve received more minutes.

      • Jul 26, 20112:10 pm
        by Jason

        Reply

        Dan,

        Am I seeing things or did you just admit that about Dumars?  I though I remember you attacking me once about my support for Joe D.

        @Lase

        Unfortunately Dan is correct about Dumars.  Thanks.

        • Jul 26, 20112:14 pm
          by Patrick Hayes

          Reply

          That comment clearly shows that you don’t follow this site enough to have an informed opinion of the content here. I would argue that no writer anywhere has been more supportive of Dumars than Dan.

          • Jul 26, 20112:18 pm
            by Jason

            Your right I am sorry I don’t read everyone of your articles.  And yes I do recall him being critical of Dumars. Which is fine. 

            Trust me I know you are the one who doesn’t like Dumars.

          • Jul 26, 20112:22 pm
            by Patrick Hayes

            That’s untrue either. You’ve made that accusation before. Do I think the Villanueva/Gordon/Hamilton signings were bad ones? Sure. But do I realize it was part of a rebuilding plan that he never got to finish? Absolutely. I’ve been a longtime defender of Dumars’ eye for talent in the draft. I still think he’s one of eight or ten best GMs in the league. As a player, he was my favorite Piston in that era other than Rodman. I have no idea what gives you the impression I “don’t like Dumars.”

          • Jul 26, 20112:28 pm
            by Jason

            Now you are saying that cause I showed you the light.

          • Jul 26, 20112:33 pm
            by Patrick Hayes

            Yes. You showed me the light. In a column I wrote on a different site a year and a half ago. That makes perfect sense.

      • Jul 26, 20112:35 pm
        by Laser

        Reply

        @feldman: i just happen to think a bad attitude and lack of focus have infinitely less to do with his decline than the specifics of the “system” he’s being forced to operate in. give him TWO of the following: a point guard worth a damn; some consistently good screens; floor spacing; his customary minutes and shots… and his production takes a quantum leap. give him all four and he’s probably rip again. we haven’t seen the guy in a system that suits his particular style of play.
         
        and i’ve explained my take on dumars’s rebuilding plan ad nauseam… so why not do it again? (A) i do not believe for a second that utah would ever have traded rip for boozer, LEAST of all once rip was extended into infinity at fifty million dollars. never believe it in a million years. just because drew sharp wants to put on the kneepads for dumars, doesn’t mean i have to eat that bullshit with a spoon. plus, the timeline doesn’t work. you can’t possibly believe this was going down after that extension and that utah was going to gobble up that contract. no way, no how. (B) only the worst GMs in the world would give out an eight-figure, multi-year deal to a shooting guard who isn’t a sure-fire all-star. let alone two. no matter how you slice it, ben gordon and rip hamilton on their respective contracts were not assets. so nobody could expect to significantly boost a roster by signing them both and moving one of them for value. never EVER happen. (C) on a related note, once you’ve signed them both, you’ve left yourself with a roster where your two hignest paid players don’t figure to complement each other, and therefore their values will decline. so best to trade one before signing the other if you don’t want to get stuck in this entirely predictable nightmare. classic case of counting one’s chickens. no way to blame karen davidson for that. and besides, i have a hard time believing she couldn’t be convinced that some kind of swap for matching salary would be, at absolute worst, a lateral move. a critical thinker would simply realize that nobody wanted these guys on those contracts. (D) dumars had carte blanche up until the start of the season before last. in his infinite wisdom, he unloaded chauncey, afflalo, dyess (who was under contract through the following season) and amir johnson for cap space. then used that space to cripple the roster with a hundred million dollars worth of BG and CV. to give him credit that this was all part of some brilliant plan that would have gone off without a hitch had karen davidson left him free to continue along this path, is insanity.

        • Jul 26, 20113:18 pm
          by brgulker

          Reply

          You should have included the fountain of youth in your “pick two.”

          Face reality, Rip is too old to contribute up to what his contract suggests he ought to.

          At the absolute most, he’s somebody’s 20 mpg game guy off the bench (who probably plays less on back to backs) who gives the offense a change of pace and gets more minutes when he’s shooting well.

          He’s too old and too inconsistent to be a full-time guy, because he’s old and diminishing.

        • Jul 26, 20113:38 pm
          by Dan Feldman

          Reply

          Laser, it sounds like you’re trying to have it both ways. You’re propping up Rip while insisting there’s no way the Jazz would’ve traded a player they were going to lose the next year anyway for him. Utah would’ve given him all four of the criteria you listed.

          • Jul 26, 20114:09 pm
            by tarsier

            Well someone can think Rip is a decent player but not anywhere close to worth his contract. And if someone believes that, it makes perfect sense to say that Utah would never take him.

          • Jul 26, 20115:02 pm
            by Dan Feldman

            “his production takes a quantum leap. give him all four and he’s probably rip again.” That sounds like more than a decent player. That sounds like a borderline All-Star.

    • Jul 26, 20112:11 pm
      by Patrick Hayes

      Reply

      I don’t think Hamilton is the biggest problem. I don’t even think he’s the most overrated SG in the league, although he’s in the conversation right now. But I think there’s plenty of evidence to suggest that his attitude has been poisonous in the locker room.

      You brought up the SG position. Obviously, splitting minutes has been bad for the production of both Hamilton and Gordon. But one player — Hamilton — has been a very public nuisance about it and the other, Gordon, has quietly handled his disappointment professionally. Now, personally, because of what they’re each paid and their limited skillsets, I wouldn’t choose either of them to be a starting SG on my team. But I think Hamilton’s immature handling of things that every player on the roster has had to deal with as a result of poor coaching, management and unstable ownership over the last three years speaks a lot to his character. Why does it seem so impossible to you that he made a bad situation for everyone a lot worse because of the way he behaved?

  • Jul 26, 20112:02 pm
    by Wall-E

    Reply

    I would pick Charlie V as my most overrated SG.

  • Jul 26, 20112:15 pm
    by kamal

    Reply

    Rip the most overrated SG in the league?  Preposterous!!  How?  He’s not even rated.  He came off the bench on a lottery team.  How is that overrated?  

    Overpaid?  Maybe.  But Overrated, he’s far from.  

    Rip will do fine if he goes to another team.  Hell, he’ll do fine if his role was back to what it used to be.  The only thing this past season proved is that Rip is not Vinnie Johnson.  He’s not a guy who could get big points in limited minutes.  Big whoop.  How many people would earn their 12 million dollar salary in 27 minutes per game.

    And don’t act like Rip’s play earned him those limited minutes.  Check the game logs for the beginning of the season.  Kuester was playing Rip and BG in 12 minute intervals from the start of the season.

    I don’t even think Rip has a bad attitude.  He hates losing.  He’s not used to it.  When Kobe started losing, he threw his teammates under the bus, stopped competing in games, took an enormous amount of ill advised shots, and demanded a trade.  I know you guys will say, “Rip is nowhere near the player Kobe Bryant is”.  And I agree.  But just as competitive as Kobe and wants to win every game.  Look at him after losses.  He and Tayshaun walk off the court with a solemn look on their faces, while the rest of the team is all smiles and hugging the opposing players.

    And I do believe that the organization has put Rip in a no win situation.  After the team loses in the ECF, a series in which Rip, once again, was the only one who showed up consistently, the team trades his point guard and makes him split time with the mercenary Allen Iverson.  And after that debacle, the team makes him split time with Ben Gordon.  All Rip did was lead us in scoring for pretty much every playoff series that going to work team had and he’s the guy who has to sacrifice minutes and his starting position?  Wow.

    It’s easy for Piston fans to throw Rip under the bus.  He’s still here on this sinking ship.  He’s the face of this awful team.  The funny thing is that when we were good, Ben and Chauncey got the credit.  Now that we suck, Rip and Tayshaun get the blame.  

    And as for the most overrated SG, I’d go with Stephen Jackson.  He still got to play HIS game and got HIS minutes and his team still sucked as bad as ours.

    • Jul 26, 20113:33 pm
      by Dan Feldman

      Reply

      “The funny thing is that when we were good, Ben and Chauncey got the credit.  Now that we suck, Rip and Tayshaun get the blame.” How is that funny? Ben and Chauncey were the two best players on those teams. They deserved the credit.

      • Jul 26, 20113:48 pm
        by Jason

        Reply

        Dan,

        Who the hell cares who gets the credit in your eyes, my eyes or anyone eyes.  All that matters is what is right.  Your ESPN thing is just a disgrace.

      • Jul 26, 20113:55 pm
        by kamal

        Reply

        I think Rip is up there with Chauncey for our best player but I won’t argue with you on that subject.  I’ll just say that Chauncey was never considered to be the best point guard in the league, yet he was apart of the best backcourt in the league.  I’d say that Rip had a lot to do with that.

        AND we’ve won playoff games and series with Chauncey stinking it up.  Hell, we’ve actually won playoff games in which Chauncey wasn’t there.  We’ve NEVER won a series in which Rip didn’t play well.

        But my overall point is that people are down right mad at Rip for the team not being good anymore.  I’m not saying you are but a lot of people out there are.

        That’s like Laker fans blaming James Worthy for the Lakers winning 30 something games in consecutive years after Magic retired.  Or Piston fans blaming Joe for the teal years.

  • Jul 26, 20112:23 pm
    by Jason

    Reply

    I am very pissed if you guys are receiving revenue from me refreshing on this page.

  • Jul 26, 20112:36 pm
    by PK

    Reply

    The amount of hate over this is perplexing, Dan and Patrick write their opinions about the Pistons and aggregate news items about our favorite team. Obviously they do well enough at this that many people check their site. I seriously do not understand all of the “throwing Rip under the bus” or “representing Detroit” comments. These writers do not work for the Pistons, they write about them if you would like to read someone writing only nice things about the Pistons please go to pistons.com, there you will find a talented writer doing his absolute best to twist his words in such a way that an embarassing and terrible team seems less so.

    As for Rip, I am not sure he is overrated because I think most people recognize his limited abilities, but he is not a good player anymore. Rip is/was a veteran on this  team and rather than assert himself and try to improve the team he did just about everything in his power to make the team worse. All of this talk about splitting time and shots is such garbage, Rip was given far more of an opportunity than any other player to log minutes at the SG spot, the fact is that he did not earn the right to be the main scoring option, does anyone think that if Rip had gone out and shown himself to be a premiere 2 guard who could lead the team in scoring that he would not have been given the minutes and shots?

    12 year veterans do not get to use the situation and coaching changes as an excuse for not giving their best effort or playing their best, if Rip was truly an elite talent and a TRUE COMPETITOR the way everyone is claiming then he would have asserted himself and taken over leadership of the team, instead he was a vocal malcontent who played like garbage.

    • Jul 26, 20113:15 pm
      by kamal

      Reply

      How can Rip assert himself and take over leadership of the team and NOT be a vocal malcontent?  Do whatever Coach Curry and Kuester wanted even if he felt that it was counterproductive and went against EVERYTHING that made the Pistons successful in the first place?

      I don’t see how you can be a leader and disagree with the head coach.  Magic Johnson had Paul Westhead fired.  Jason Kidd had Byron Scott fired.  Steve Nash stop playing for Terry Porter and got him fired. 

      And how was Rip given far more of opportunity to log minutes at the SG last season?  He struggled at the beginning of the season but only played 30 minutes or more 3 times in the first 10 games.  Sorry, that’s not given the opportunity.  That’s basically saying to Rip “if you don’t have a good first quarter, you’re not playing much the rest of the quarter”.  You think that’s fair for a guy who is a rhythm shooter.  When we were good, Rip didn’t always have a good shooting first quarter.  But he kept at it and kept shooting and eventually, he’d have a good second half or good final stretch of the game.

      Rip is nowhere as good as Dwyane Wade or Kobe Bryant but if their minutes relied on how well they played the first quarter, they’d struggle as well and would force a lot of shots that they normally wouldn’t take.

      • Jul 26, 20113:22 pm
        by brgulker

        Reply

        I don’t see how you can be a leader and disagree with the head coach.  Magic Johnson had Paul Westhead fired.  Jason Kidd had Byron Scott fired.  Steve Nash stop playing for Terry Porter and got him fired.

        Even if all of this is true, Rip doesn’t hold a candle to any of those players.

        If you’re firing coaches because Rip doesn’t like them, you’re doing it wrong.

        If you’re firing coaches because Magic Johnson doesn’t like them, well, you’ve still got Magic Johnson on your team.

        • Jul 26, 20113:40 pm
          by kamal

          Reply

          I know Rip doesn’t hold a candle to those guys.   

          But Nash STILL had his worst statistical year in 11 years (PER) under Porter.  It was the only year in the last seven that Nash failed to dish out 10 assists per game.

          Under Westhead, Magic’s team lost in the 1st round, after winning it all the year before.

          And Kidd’s Nets were struggling to hover over .500 after 2 straight finals appearances.

          All of those a legitimate reasons for a player not liking a coach.  But because Rip, individually isn’t as good as those players, he doesn’t have the right to complain when he gets incompetent coaches?  For real?

          Rip may not be as good as Nash and Kidd individually, but he’s had more success for the Pistons than they have for their respective teams.  Rip’s played in more playoff games during that span than both of those guys and scored more points (a Detroit Record, mind you).

          Just because he ain’t an all time great player doesn’t mean he wants to win any less than those guys or knows less about how the game should be played.  Rip knew before all of us that Kuester and Curry couldn’t cut the mustard.  All of us bash those guys on the net.  So the guy who plays for them, travels with them, stays in hotels with them, watches film sessions with them has no right to complain about their lack of knowledge and/or coaching skill?  Ridiculous.

          • Jul 27, 201111:28 am
            by brgulker

            All of those a legitimate reasons for a player not liking a coach.  But because Rip, individually isn’t as good as those players, he doesn’t have the right to complain when he gets incompetent coaches?  For real?

            The goal posts are moving. We were talking about players getting coaches fired, and now you’re talking about players having the right to complain.

            I love a good debate, but it’s not a real debate if you keep changing the terms. 

            But, since we’re on the topic now, no, I don’t think players have the right to act like whiny little bitches because they don’t like their superiors any more than I do if I don’t like mine.

            Professionalism 101.

      • Jul 26, 20113:35 pm
        by Dan Feldman

        Reply

        “He struggled at the beginning of the season but only played 30 minutes or more 3 times in the first 10 games.” That’s pretty misleading. In the first 10 games he didn’t get himself ejected from, Rip played 28:26 per game. That’s not enough minutes to show he can play?

      • Jul 26, 20113:45 pm
        by PK

        Reply

        I’m not saying he had to agree with the coaches, especially since those coaches seemed particularly inept, but being a leader in the locker room and complaining to the media are not the same thing. You can not be a leader and not be giving your full effort, I saw Rip quit on defense and intentionally get himself kicked out of games. No one can do that and then try and lead a team.

        Such a situation would never happen to Wade or Kobe because they are really good players and Rip is not. He was a good player, and I like him a lot as a player and he was obviously crucial to the team’s success and for that I am grateful, but it seems pretty obvious that he is not capable of being any better than the 3rd best player on a team. Its Dumars fault for paying him like he can be your best player, but its Rip’s fault for apparently deciding that contract meant he didnt have to try any more.

        Its totally fine for your situation to affect your performance, but that is pretty much the DEFINITION of mediocrity. In a good environment on a good team Rip is/was a good player, on a bad team he is a bad player. That’s ok, but its nothing to be excited about, and nothing to thump your chest about if you are a Rip supporter.

        • Jul 26, 20113:55 pm
          by PK

          Reply

          still not sure if that should be affect or effect…

        • Jul 26, 20113:59 pm
          by kamal

          Reply

          See, I don’t agree that Rip got himself intentionally kicked out of games.  It was a new rule, that the refs were going to call techs immediately for things that they used to allow.  He had a difficult time adjusting early in the season.  And then the techs stopped.  I think he got one in the second half of the season.

          But if you’re against Rip or not a fan of his anymore, then you’re going to believe he intentionally got himself kicked out even though there isn’t a shred of evidence to prove it.  And I’m sure I won’t change your mind.

          • Jul 26, 20114:17 pm
            by PK

            Well of course there is no evidence that he got himself kicked out, I mean I couldn’t empirically prove it and he never said he did, but I don’t agree my bias made me see things that way. As a Pistons fan I like Rip and it was watching him get kicked out 5 minutes into a game against the Celtics that made me wonder if he was even trying anymore, he certainly made no effort NOT to get kicked out. What could possibly have happened in the span of 5 minutes to make him so angry as to get 2 straight technicals? The second one he seemed to be waiting for the ref to toss him like a manager in baseball.

            As for your other point re: minutes, here is a list of players who played less than 28.6 MPG last year

            http://www.nba.biz/statistics/player/Minutes.jsp?season=22010&league=00&qualified=Y&pager.offset=100

            I don’t think you can possibly say that Rip is demonstrably better than the players listed here, even excluding Duncan who played less because of his age. Many of these players are good players, Rip is not.

          • Jul 26, 20114:21 pm
            by PK

            Sorry, by “the players listed here” I mean the players in the 26-28 minute range, there are a few stinkers in there, but I’d say for the most part the players listed were a great deal more effective than Hamilton.

          • Jul 26, 20114:22 pm
            by Dan Feldman

            I don’t think Rip got himself intentionally kicked out, but it’s a microcosm of his production problems.

            The circumstances changed: the NBA cracked down on complaining; Rip got older, and his physical abilities lessened.

            Rip didn’t adjust: he continued to complain; he didn’t improve his focus or shoot less.

            Without a doubt, Rip has been in a worse situation the last three years than he was the previous six through no fault of his own. But name on thing he’s done to improve the situation.

  • Jul 26, 20113:26 pm
    by Sam

    Reply

    Can I start a “Top 10 Jason Comment” post?! This guy is a goldmine! Here are a few I’m thinking of starting with:

    1) “Just my two cents asshole!” –Now, we all know this is not a complete sentence and, given the context, we understand what he meant. Still, the syntactical meaning of this fragment is awesome! Since there is no comma between cents and asshole, he is not addressing anyone, let alone Mr Feldman. That means two cents is modifying asshole. Apparently, Jason has laid his inexpensive backside out for everyone to see. But not any other part of his body, mind you, JUST his backside.

    2) “Why cause you can’t understand that FREE SPEACH IS A TWO WAY STREET?”– Apparently there is a new clause in some of the founding documents of which Jason is extra aware. Maybe it is the right to leave sentences unpunctuated, leave out evidence for your claims, and be obnoxious in general.

    Now, we all understand that America loves Freedom of speech, more specifically, the freedom to disagree and dissent. Great! Still, do it prudently. Freedom does not mean you get to be a twohundredthsofadollaranalcavity

    I realize, in making this point, I was also a twohundredthsofadollaranalcavity. I am ok with a ban, should Dan And Patrick think it prudent. Especially, since my post had nothing to do with basketball!

    :)

    • Jul 26, 20114:00 pm
      by Jason

      Reply

      Sam,

      Your comment is an example of wasted intelligence. You remind me of a jeopardy winner who never uses his intelligence other than to correct others grammor and stuff like that.

      Personally I think you don’t get it.  Lets say I comment prudently like you say I should. I would get one boring response and would never get any point accross.  But if I make comments like I have it creates more room for argument as you can see above.   It draws more people into my response and now Dan and Patrick see my point. But this would never of happend if it was not for Dan’s stupid ESPN comment.

      Thanks
      Jason

      Whats number 3?

      • Jul 26, 20114:51 pm
        by Sam

        Reply

        Being prudent does not mean you can’t be clever, and the fact that you attribute all 107 comments to something you said tells me even more about your personality. Further, I don’t see how more room has been created in terms of debate. All the regular commentators have been saying what they always say. The only difference is that you introduced a level of indecency.

  • Jul 26, 20113:48 pm
    by kamal

    Reply

    Nope.  Who gets 28:26 minutes per game?  What good player?

    On Yahoo sports, I checked the top 50 scorers in the NBA for last season, and NONE of them played less than 30 minutes per game.  And the ppg went all the way down to 15.9.

    Rip’s a scoring guard.  He needs the minutes to do what he does best.  He’s not instant offense like Earl Boykins or somebody.

  • Jul 26, 20113:59 pm
    by Jacob

    Reply

    Wow, I’m away for a few minutes and this thing blows up! Who would’ve thought? This much commenter excitement during a lockout! Let’s get it to 100 comments!
    BTW – I think an argument can be made that BG is the most overrated SG. I wish we would trade him and keep Rip.
    Question: What’s the most comments for a single post in PistonPowered history?
    Keep up the good work Dan and Patrick – keeping us intrigued even during the #lockout

    • Jul 26, 20114:07 pm
      by Jason

      Reply

      Jaconb you have it wrong.  THE WORST THING ABOUT THIS WHOLE ARGUMENT IS IT WAS IN THE EXPENSE OF ANOTHER. YES THAT WOULD BE RIP HAMILTON. YES SIR!  DAN THINKS HE CAN SIT BACK AND THROW HIS OPINION ON ESPN AND ITS OK CAUSE ON HIS STUPID WEBSITE HE IS GETTING A HUNDRED COMMENTS. HE ONLY CARES ABOUT HOW MANY HITS HE GETS ON HIS WEBSITE YOU SEE.

      • Jul 26, 20114:30 pm
        by Jacob

        Reply

        Hey everybody – Jason disagrees with me! I feel like I’m part of the group now.
         
        Caps lock is not anybody’s friend.
         
        Keep up the good work Dan and Patrick (and Dan Patrick).
         
         

    • Jul 26, 20115:03 pm
      by Dan Feldman

      Reply

      Jacob, I’m not really sure which post has had the most comments. I know we’ve gone over 100 before.

  • Jul 26, 20114:02 pm
    by neutes

    Reply

    Best Shooting Guard? Wade
     
    Underrated? E.Gordon/Igoudala
     
    Overrated? Evans/Ellis
     
    Promising? Harden/Thornton
     
    All-Time? Jordan
     
    I’m not sure that Gordon is more overrated than Hamilton, but IMO he’s certainly more overpaid. I think Rip is better than Gordon, but I’m not sure Gordon has a reputation as a respectable SG anymore at this point. If he does and I’m not aware then he is more overrated.
     

    • Jul 26, 201110:28 pm
      by Dan Feldman

      Reply

      I nearly chose Ellis for overrated, but I think, at this point, so many consider him overrated, he’s pretty close to fairly rated. Most of the 5-on-5ers picked him, cementing my point.

      • Jul 27, 201111:04 am
        by tarsier

        Reply

        Why do so many people think Ellis is overrated? Sure he provides little besides scoring, but he scores effectively and efficiently. Like a better version of Kevin Martin or Jason Richardson.

  • Jul 26, 20114:29 pm
    by Rodman4Life

    Reply

    Dan & Patrick -

    C’mon, really?  What is all this pot-stirring for lately?  I disagree with you guys from time to time, but all of this drama lately reeks of “agenda.”

    • Jul 26, 20114:38 pm
      by Dan Feldman

      Reply

      I have no idea what this means. What’s different than usual?

    • Jul 26, 20114:39 pm
      by Patrick Hayes

      Reply

      How so? Dialogue and debate have always been a big component of this site. This post is far from the first time Dan has expressed similar sentiments on Hamilton. It’s not as if he conjured something up to simply rile up readers. He’s genuinely made many of these same points pretty consistently on PP.

      What do you feel like is agenda-driven of late?

      • Jul 26, 20114:55 pm
        by Rodman4Life

        Reply

        It feels rebellious in nature for one.  For us older fans, you have to know going in that we can’t isolate (very well) our feelings for some of those older Pistons players when you make stats-heavy based comparisons.  I think Chris Paul is one smooth player, and will be in the HOF one day.  But to give him the prize over an already proven Isiah on a PISTON blog site is going to incite some bark, to say the least.  
        Rip has been a controversial player here in Detroit for several years, and he does not deserve that contract.  But I feel that you guys actually perceive things about his gameplay far differently than many on this site.  You guys are stats gurus, and I appreciate reading your posts.  But stats can also make the anti-argument.  The truth can easily get muddled in the middle.  The point is, as Piston website torch bearers, overly-opinionated columns, (or the converse, un-feeling write ups based purely on stats) tends to pull this boat of opinion more toward the extremes.  You guys had to know before you posted this that there would be heated response.

        • Jul 26, 20114:59 pm
          by Rodman4Life

          Reply

          For the sake of “being thorough” you guys should play the counter-argument like philosophy professors make you do.  With stats as your weapon, make a legitimate argument FOR Hamilton showing that the last three seasons don’t necessarily indicate a decline in his ability.  Remember, you don’t have to agree with it.  And if you find it impossible to find the info/stats to back it up, then there’s your post.  Sound fair?

          • Jul 26, 20115:24 pm
            by Dan Feldman

            Our intent isn’t to argue against Hamilton. Our intent is to write the Pistons in way we find accurate. More often than not, as you can see, when we write about Rip, that means writing something negative. That doesn’t mean we shy from the positive when Hamilton warrants. Off the top of my head, here’s an example:

            http://www.pistonpowered.com/2011/04/rip-hamilton-tayshaun-prince-closing-out-frustrating-season-the-right-way/

            Although, your idea is interesting, it’s not what we do. Neither Patrick nor I has ever written Hamilton is a total failure. When we see positives, we write about them. When we see negatives, we write about them. If and when we see positives with Hamilton in the future, we don’t hesitate to post about them.

        • Jul 26, 20115:20 pm
          by Dan Feldman

          Reply

          I think it’s mis-labeling to say we only base our arguments on stats. Stats are a big part of what we do, but without more context, stats are misleading. We look at the whole picture, and to me, the whole picture says Rip is overrated. What about his play to you suggests he’s fairly or underrated?

        • Jul 26, 20118:22 pm
          by Patrick Hayes

          Reply

          “But to give him the prize over an already proven Isiah on a PISTON blog site is going to incite some bark, to say the least.”

          Not to play the semantics game, but Dan didn’t “give” Paul the prize. He simply predicted that when Paul’s career is over, he thinks Paul will be considered just below Magic on the scale of PGs. He, I think, was pretty careful not to say that he thinks Paul is already better than Isiah. And yeah, I’m sure he knew it would “generate some bark,” which it did. But isn’t that part of the point of sports? To have virtually unwinnable and passionate arguments? I mean, Paul could be the best player on four championship teams before his career is over, and there will still be people, I would guess, who will argue Isiah was better and have legit points even. Hell, there will be people who will argue Stockton was better than both. It’s impossible to win those types of arguments, but it’s still fun to discuss them. It would be one thing if Dan wrote, “Chris Paul is totally better than Isiah and anyone who thinks differently is a moron.” That would be doing something simply to incite “bark.”

          What he did, was state an opinion, backed up with some of his reasoning as to why he believes that, and start a discussion. I think there’s a big difference.

          He and I both have strong opinions on many topics, Pistons-related or otherwise. We both do our best to be honest about those opinions, support them with evidence we feel is compelling and get conversations started. We both have watched a lot of Pistons basketball over the years, we both grew up in families that were crazy about the Bad Boys. We, like everyone else, has different random memories that make us attached to this franchise.

          I can honestly tell you that I have never and will never write something purposely to rile people up if I don’t fully believe what I am writing. Sometimes, I’ll be proven wrong over time and look stupid (trust me, there are a handful of posts floating around cyberspace that make me look kinda dumb right now). Sometimes, we’ll piss people off. Sometimes, hopefully, people will appreciate our candor and voice and the passion we both have for the subject matter.

          That’s why we both put so much time into this site and that’s why we both spend so much time responding/debating with readers, both because we’re passionate about what we do and because we both like to learn other perspectives or ways about thinking about things.

  • Jul 26, 20114:31 pm
    by Jacob

    Reply

    100 comments! Yes!

  • Jul 26, 20114:34 pm
    by israelpiston

    Reply

    Let’s try some context. Rip was at his best when the Pistons were “playing the right way.” He had the perfect point guard who knew exactly how to work with him. He had the Wallaces to set great screens for him. In short, Dumars built a great support system for Rip.
    The Rip of today cannot be judged in the same context as the old Rip. His point guards – Stuckey and Bynum do not know him like Billips did and they want to run and gun and are not effective in a slow, set offense – the kind Rip needs. Moreover, he has no one to set the really good screens he needs. Austin Daye at power forward is skinny and weak and certainly not not Rasheed , Charley V has no idea how to set and screen and Monroe is still learning his role – but he is more of a point center – not really a screen setter.
    I do think that Boston and Chicago could be “saved by Rip” Their point guards can easily figure out how to work with him and I can see Garnett and Noah setting the mean screens Rip needs.
    If Larry Brown ends up as an assistant at Boston – we could see Rip there and find out.
     

    • Jul 26, 20114:47 pm
      by Patrick Hayes

      Reply

      But see, this part of your comment, in my mind, is part of the context that is lacking:

      “I do think that Boston and Chicago could be “saved by Rip” Their point guards can easily figure out how to work with him and I can see Garnett and Noah setting the mean screens Rip needs.”

      Why would anyone on those teams have to adjust to Hamilton? He’d be, at best, Chicago’s fourth option on offense (behind Rose, Boozer or Deng). In Boston, he’s behind Garnett, Allen, Pierce. Translation: he’s a role player. To have any kind of discussion about star players adjusting their games to better tailor them to Hamilton is completely silly.

      And I don’t say that to suggest Hamilton couldn’t help those teams. I think he really could and would help either one. But to help them, he’d have to adjust his game, not the other way around. He’d have to adjust to getting fewer shots, he’d have to adjust to playing fewer minutes and he’d have to not sulk about those things. Maybe having better teammates and a chance to win is the medicine he needs, but there are very reasonable questions about his willingness to adapt based on the last few years in Detroit.

      • Jul 26, 20115:05 pm
        by israelpiston

        Reply

        Good points – I should have added that if Rip plays for Chicago or Boston – he will not be a starter but would be a key role player. I would like to see him sulk and be a malcontent with Pierce and Garnet in his face!! They would set him straight in a second! Problem is no one on the Pistons can do this with RIp – he is veteran and has a ring.
        Rip needs a change  and I am sure he will contribute to teams like Boston or Chicago more than he can in Detroit.

        • Jul 26, 20115:11 pm
          by Patrick Hayes

          Reply

          That’s so true about the locker room, and it’s the biggest reason the Pistons need to part ways with him. Their young players need to grow and having a veteran who has as strong a presence as Hamilton, who is also as unhappy as Hamilton was, is detrimental to their growth.

    • Jul 26, 20115:28 pm
      by Dan Feldman

      Reply

      IsraelPiston, it seems to me your argument basically boils down to this: Rip built his reputation as a very good player when the deck was completely stacked in his favor. When his circumstances became more adverse, his game suffered.

      I definitely agree with that. And that’s also why I argue Rip is overrated. He’s perceived as a very good player. Very good players handle non-perfect situations better than he has.

      That doesn’t make him worthless, and it doesn’t mean he couldn’t play well in a different situation. But that does make him overrated.

      • Jul 26, 20116:04 pm
        by PK

        Reply

        EXACTLY.

        For the past couple years I have played this game that so many of my fellow commentors are stuck in, the if (x) was better, than (player) would be better.

        If Stuck had the same, good coach for the past 4 years, he would be a true PG, if Rip didn’t have to split time with BG  and AI he would be contributing at his ’05 level, if Gordon’s minutes and role were consistent he would be scoring like we all think he can. 

        But players who are actually good, and are strong mentally, are able to overcome bad situations to at least play their best. We’ve all heard the knock on guys that put up stats on bad teams, but at least those players are making an effort and focusing on what they can control (their play). It is very likely that given a better situation any one of those guys could be much better than they have been the past few years, and that will be great for whatever team snags them, and it will suck for the Pistons and Pistons fans, but that doesn’t mean they haven’t been bad for Detroit and it doesn’t mean they should be excused for their failings.

  • Jul 26, 20114:38 pm
    by neutes

    Reply

    Man some of you peoples need to relax.
     
    If I was going to throw a Piston SG under the bus it would have been Gordon, and I probably would have taken that opportunity if given it because there just isn’t enough national bad mojo towards Dumars and until he does something right I have to assume he’s not aware anything is wrong. I only disagree with the player Dan chose to call out.
     
    Anyways if you like reading this blog it would probably be appropriate to pay some respect to those that contribute to making it a place worth frequenting. If not then GTFO! Just epinion.

  • Jul 26, 20114:43 pm
    by israelpiston

    Reply

    A few related and unrelated comments and a quick followup to my post
    You can add Wilcox as another center/forward who cannot set a proper screen for Rip
    While I am a Phi Beta Kappa – I ignore spelling and grammar in web posts, twitter etc – just not the place for it and most people do not know or care about spelling or grammar when they read these posts
    IMHO, Dan did throw Rip under the bus, but he, like Patrick and anyone else is entitled to his opinion
    I also believe that this site is the very best for keeping up with the Pistons and unlike other forums, the posters here are usually civil and add a lot of value.
    I would prefer that Dan and Patrick stick to their guns and tell us what they really think as opposed to spotting propaganda
    I also do not think that any GM would reject a trade involving  Rip based on Dan’s opinion – no offense Dan! :)
     

  • Jul 26, 20115:08 pm
    by Murph

    Reply

    Jason…I’m beginning to like you more and more.  Keep fighting the good fight.

    I agree with you.  I find just about everything Hayes and Feldman write either be absurd, or incredibly annoying, or both…including this article.

    It’s gotten to the point where I think they’re trying to be irritating.

    But for some reason, I just can’t tear myself away from this stupid sight.    I guess it’s because we’re mired in a lockout, so there’s no real news, so Feldman’s and Hayes’ drivel is the only thing out there.

    • Jul 26, 20115:13 pm
      by Patrick Hayes

      Reply

      Jason, I think you just found a contributor to your new blog. Can’t wait for the launch.

    • Jul 26, 20118:07 pm
      by Patrick Hayes

      Reply

      I say this with all sincerity, I really just don’t understand what “the good fight” is. Have your comments here ever been deleted? Edited? Banned? You and every other commenter has literally been permitted to say whatever it is that you want here. You have the same forum to express yourself here that every reader has. What, exactly, are you fighting? Do you want us to make you a writer for the site and give you a platform above the fold? Are your opinions somehow more meriting that treatment than the comments of other, more reason-using readers (dissenting views or otherwise) down here? What exactly is it that you want? I honestly have no idea.
      You are far from the only one who has used this space to express disagreements. People do exactly what you and Jason do — disagree — every day here, albeit usually in a more constructive and well thought out way. To act like you are fighting some type of censorship or oppression of views here is patently ridiculous. All views have always and will always be accepted here within some very basic and commonly accepted protocol (i.e. don’t threaten people, make a reasonable effort to stay in the ballpark of being on topic, etc.). There is no fight to be won here. Face it, the real reason you come back is not because you “can’t tear yourself away.” It’s because you enjoy being an antagonist and you enjoy trolling. And yes, I do realize my culpability in responding to it, something I’ve been working on ignoring over the last week. But seriously, you’re rebelling against nothing. You have as much or probably even more freedom to speak your mind here, however you choose to go about doing it, as you do at, I would suspect, any site on any topic on the web. If censorship, if fostering a community only of people who think like Dan and I do was the goal of this site, that would be pretty easy to make happen. This site has been around for a few years now and has never done that.

      • Jul 27, 20113:06 pm
        by Murph

        Reply

        I have no idea what you’re rambling on about.

  • Jul 26, 20115:10 pm
    by Murph

    Reply

    BTW Feldman, Rip isn’t even the most over-rated shooting guard on the Detroit Pistons.  That would be Ben Gordon.

    • Jul 26, 20115:30 pm
      by Dan Feldman

      Reply

      When is the last time you saw something positive written about Gordon?

      • Jul 26, 20117:31 pm
        by Murph

        Reply

        I don’t know when the last time I saw something positive written about Gordon.

        I was addressing your article, and pointing out that Rip isn’t even the most over-rated shooting guard on the Pistons, let alone the NBA…and I wasn’t even kidding.

        • Jul 26, 20117:46 pm
          by Dan Feldman

          Reply

          How can Gordon be overrated if almost nobody thinks he’s any good?

          • Jul 27, 20117:26 am
            by Murph

            We’ll Joe Dumars must over-rate Gordon, based on the salary Gordon is recieving. Joe’s paying Gordon $11.6 million this year, even through the lockout.  If that isn’t over-rating a player, I don’t know what is.

          • Jul 27, 201110:48 am
            by tarsier

            By the same token, when was the last time something positive was written about Hamilton? That’s why I don’t think he is absurdly overrated. Because I don’t think too many people think he is still all that good.

  • Jul 26, 20117:19 pm
    by Jason

    Reply

    man I wish I would of stuck around.  Great stuff from everyone except Dan and Patrick.  And that one person who doesn’t like my grammar. If he knew I had to grow up in the U.P. maybe he would give me a break.

    • Jul 26, 20118:10 pm
      by Patrick Hayes

      Reply

      With excuses like that, your apologist behavior towards Hamilton is now totally explained. I get it now.

      • Jul 27, 20118:13 am
        by Murph

        Reply

        No one needs to apologize for Hamilton’s NBA Championship, NCAA Championship, his almost 15,000 career points, and his almost 2500 career playoff points, which incidently leads the Pistons all-time.

        You guys need to brush up on your Pistons history.

        • Jul 27, 20119:21 am
          by brgulker

          Reply

          Yay points!

        • Jul 27, 201111:01 am
          by tarsier

          Reply

          I don’t think anyone disagrees that Rip has played some very fine basketball. They just disagree about the level he is on now and how much respect his game and name “deserves” now based on past accomplishments.

  • Jul 26, 20119:58 pm
    by rob

    Reply

    ok, so its been almost a week now and still no Frank presser or even signing. What’s going on?

  • Jul 26, 201111:28 pm
    by curriergroh

    Reply

    This must be a case of the vocal minority, right?
    Totally agree with the post.
    Not going to defend my response or my Pistons cred., just trying to even out the feedback.
    I feel like some people are knowingly not participating in reality, wow, entertaining.

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