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Joe Dumars might consider re-signing Tayshaun Prince, according to Tayshaun Prince’s agent

Perry Farrell of the Detroit Free Press reports that Joe Dumars reached out to Tayshaun Prince‘s agent, Bill Duffy, before the lockout to express an interest in re-signing Prince:

Bill Duffy, the agent for Pistons free-agent forward Tayshaun Prince, said he was contacted by Pistons president of basketball operations Joe Dumars before the July 1 lockout to say he was interested in re-signing the veteran.

Duffy also says Prince will test the market, but would potentially be interested in a return to Detroit. This, simply, is all kinds of crazy on both sides. Matt Watson sums up nicely why it makes no sense for the Pistons:

This strikes me as insane. For one, Prince was among the most visible of last year’s malcontents — if Dumars is serious about changing the team’s culture, he must recognize this and make a clean break.

But more importantly, it’s simply asinine to keep an expensive veteran on a team that’s at least several years away from seriously contending. Invest the money in a big man, and invest the playing time in developing younger, cheaper players who almost certainly have more productive years left in their career like Jonas Jerebko, Austin Daye and (yes) Kyle Singler.

And from Prince’s perspective … why? I like Prince. He’s a good, solid all-around player, one of the most intelligent players in the league. He was also obviously miserable last season, playing on a young team that didn’t play with the toughness the Pistons teams of the past played with and certainly is not yet savvy enough to match Prince’s basketball IQ. He was visibly frustrated.

And worse, the things that Prince brings to the table don’t really show up much on a bad team. I mean, hopefully some of his intelligence rubbed off on younger teammates last season. But as we saw, a team with Prince as the primary offensive option is not going to win much. A team without a rim-protecting presence behind Prince is going to make his solid perimeter defense less noticeable. A team without a true point guard is going to cause Prince to hold onto the ball way too long.

Prince’s skillset would just simply be way more valuable on a team with more talent surrounding him.

96 Comments

  • Jul 12, 20119:44 am
    by khandor

    Reply

    Patrick,
    Matt Watson’s opinion about this matter just happens to be wrong. The main source of Prince’s frustration last season is no longer employed by the Pistons, i.e. John Kuester. Keeping Prince on-board next season, as a grizzled veteran who can still play effectively iat the SF position in the NBA for years to come and embodies what the team’s storied history is all about … would be a solid personnel move for Joe Dumars to make, as long as Tayshaun is also willing to re-sign for a reasonable sum of money.
     
    The way in which a top notch NBA GM should make important personnel decisions in an effort to re-build his team is not the same as that of a fan blogger of that team who chooses not to allow select comments on his own site from those who express their thoughts in a way which is radically different than the norm.

    • Jul 12, 20119:54 am
      by Patrick Hayes

      Reply

      Don’t make our comments section here your protest forum for getting banned on other sites.

      • Jul 12, 201110:35 am
        by khandor

        Reply

        Sorry, Patrick.
        This is how my reply comment was actually supposed to look: ——– Patrick,
        If you read my comment and think that is what my intent was in this instance, then, unfortunately, you were mistaken in this perception. One of the best things about Pistonpowered.com is its acceptance of opinions that are delivered in a way which is radically different than the norm, whether dissenting or not. Fan bloggers like the ones who seem to run this site are in a different category than those who do not operate their own sites in the same way. IMO, the way in which a top notch NBA GM makes his personnel decisions is closer in alignment to the way that the operators of Pistonpowered.com seem to operate their business, i.e. they have a clear idea of what they wish to accomplish, and do not allow others to bother or dissuade them from their own method of operation, while remaining open to opinions which are quite different from their own or the norm. In general, the NBA GMs who are the most successful over an extended period of time do not act in a way that replicates the actions of “sheep that are blindly following a shepherd.” Joe Dumars is his own shepherd … and it makes a great deal of sense for him to chart a future course with the Pistons that includes at least one member of the team that was in Detroit when the Pistons last claimed the NBA Championship and understands THE WAY to a League Title. This is all my previous comment meant to convey … nothing at all about a “protest” against someone else’s site.——- Please accept my sincere apology, if I’ve offended you in any way.

    • Jul 12, 201110:33 am
      by brgulker

      Reply

      No one is questioning whether Prince can still be effective. People are questioning whether or not Prince at his age, Prince at his price point for the production, and Prince relative to the cheap, young players already on the Pistons roster makes any sense.

      In a nutshell, we can likely put a SF rotation of Daye – Jerebko – Rip – Singler on the court, without investing another cent in Prince – who by himself isn’t the difference between the Playoffs and the Lottery.

      Why on Earth would we _not_ move forward with that youthful core?

      • Jul 12, 201110:42 am
        by khandor

        Reply

        Ben,
        From the core group of players you listed above, Rip [if at all possible] is the one who should actually be removed from the Pistons’ roster moving forward, not Tayshaun Prince … given the potential presence of Knight and Stuckey and Gordon and White and Bynum on Detroit’s post-lockout roster.

      • Jul 12, 201110:54 am
        by getsomepistons

        Reply

        If Rip isn’t traded before the season starts, I’ve long been of the opinion that he needs to log significant minutes at the SF position. His rate of performance hasn’t changed much relative to the rest of his Pistons career and he just needs minutes to illustrate that, even if they don’t come at his customary position.

        • Jul 12, 201110:59 am
          by khandor

          Reply

          The only position which Rip can play effectively in the NBA is OG. Period. In fact, part of the Pistons problems the last several seasons has involved the inappropriate use of Rip at the SF position … where he is quite ineffective, in a poor defense and no-rebound 5-man unit.

          • Jul 12, 201111:26 am
            by getsomepistons

            The only season that he played enough minutes at SF to even register a blip was 08-09, and he didn’t perform badly then.  The bigger problem that year was Tayshaun at PF.

  • Jul 12, 201110:18 am
    by FL PISTON

    Reply

    Prince wasn’t the problem but what man wouldn’t be frustrated w that year and COACH after being deep in the playoffs for almost his entire career.  

    I would love to re-sign prince at a far price. Prince makes Defense better with his length, has good shot and postup game, run the point and w championship DNA. He can play w Knight another “Smart” wildcat. He would still be a an asset to trade later. They may have to trade a young guy to get some talent for example Rip and Jones for Al Jefferson

    Knight / Will
    Stuckey / BG /White
    Prince / Daye/ Singler
    Monroe / CV / Max
    AL / Ben / Veron

    • Jul 12, 201110:27 am
      by Patrick Hayes

      Reply

      First, I’m not saying his frustrations weren’t mostly justified. I’m saying that, even with a new coach, the team is not going to be able to make a ‘deep’ playoff run next season certainly. It might take two or three years to get back to that level. Honestly, teams that fall into the lottery as the Pistons have the last two years very often have a hard time digging back out. In that scenario, it makes little sense to re-sign him, since he’s already 31.

      Secondly, you bring up ‘fair’ price. Why would Prince, who will be signing his last big NBA contract, give the Pistons or anyone a discount? He will rightly, I think, be looking for maximum value. That makes sense for Prince. it doesn’t make sense for the Pistons, however, to invest heavily in a player who is already 31 and may not be able to contribute much when the team is actually good again.

      And although Al Jefferson would be an upgrade as a post scorer, he’s injury prone and a Monroe/Jefferson frontcourt combo would be one of the least athletic frontcourts in the league. Neither guy is a shot blocker, something the Pistons could desperately use if they’re going to improve at all defensively.

    • Jul 12, 201110:32 am
      by gmehl1977

      Reply

      i would think on a talent level the pistons would trade Daye before they would trade Jerebko. BTW its Jonas not Jones. Learn your players names for crying out loud!

  • Jul 12, 201110:29 am
    by khandor

    Reply

    Patrick,
    Matt Watson’s opinion about this matter just happens to be wrong. The main source of Prince’s frustration last season is no longer employed by the Pistons, i.e. John Kuester. Keeping Prince on-board next season, as a grizzled veteran who can still play effectively iat the SF position in the NBA for years to come and embodies what the team’s storied history is all about … would be a solid personnel move for Joe Dumars to make, as long as Tayshaun is also willing to re-sign for a reasonable sum of money.
    The way in which a top notch NBA GM should make important personnel decisions in an effort to re-build his team is not the same as that of a fan blogger of that team who chooses not to allow select comments on his own site from those who express their thoughts in a way which is radically different than the norm.
    This is all my previous comment meant to convey … nothing at all about any sort of “protest” against anyone else’s site.

    • Jul 12, 201110:48 am
      by khandor

      Reply

      Not sure what happened with this amalgamated hodge-podge comment. Please remove it, if possible, or simply disregard. Thanks.

  • Jul 12, 201110:40 am
    by FL PISTON

    Reply

    By Fair price I ment don’t over pay. Prince may want to stay here where he has made a home. What was his last contract 40 million w a title.

    JONAS ( I know his name)  would be a better fit for Utah.

    What do you guys think is fair deal for big man trade using one of each (RIP or BG) and (DAYE or JJ or 1 Rd pick) = what big man

  • Jul 12, 201110:46 am
    by Jason

    Reply

    Its just a fact that if we re-sign Prince we are a better team. Obviously we need to move some other players but I would love to have him back. 

    For those of you who don’t think highly of Prince remember the minutes he was playing for USA basketball.  Just proves how solid a player this guy is.  To think otherwise is stupid.

    • Jul 12, 201110:55 am
      by khandor

      Reply

      An added bonus from Dumars “reaching out” to Prince’s agent in this way prior to July 1 is that, even if Bill Duffy decides to take his client’s services to another team, then, what Joe D. has done is make clear to other interested parties across the league that he – as Detroit’s GM – is someone who is very much about doing what’s needed to return a NBA championship to this city … which involves holding on to still-productive veterans, if at all possible. Other high calibre players and agents across the league pay close attention to simple details LIKE THIS, and then act accordingly down-the-road. What Joe D. did hear is money-in-the-bank.

      • Jul 12, 201111:03 am
        by Jason

        Reply

        I agree.  Joe D is going to prove his worth now that he is free to do more.   I am very excited for this next couple years to see us improve. The coaches available kind of suck though.

        Also can’t wait to rub it in all the Joe D haters faces as well.

        • Jul 12, 201111:27 am
          by khandor

          Reply

          Jason,
           
          It will be interesting to see the response of the “Joe D. haters” who also claim to be longtime Pistons fans if/when “ole No. 4″ is actually able to turn around the fortunes of the franchise. e.g. Will they give him credit for this? or, Simply say that he SHOULD have been able to succeed in doing THIS even sooner than he did, if he was truly as good as his supporters believe?, etc.

          • Jul 12, 201111:31 am
            by brgulker

            Dumars has set it up so that he will have to get extremely fortunate in order to turn things around anytime soon.

            If five years from now, he does manage to do so, that won’t do anything to negate the last three years.

    • Jul 12, 201111:03 am
      by Patrick Hayes

      Reply

      No one is saying he isn’t a solid player. He’s the definition of solid. These are the considerations:

      - Cost. You mention that other moves need to be made to improve the roster. Re-signing Prince for the likely $7ish million (at least) he will no doubt be looking for at a minimum per season as a FA will no doubt restrict what the Pistons have to spend this and in subsequent offseasons. Is the best investment re-signing a solid but still non-All-Star level player who is 31 when you have cheap alternatives who can play that position in Jerebko and Daye and an expensive alternative in Hamilton whose contract makes him hard to trade? The Pistons, by signing Prince, would be adding more salary to a position where they have some depth, taking away a resource (money in current and future seasons) that could be used at a position they have no depth (frontcourt).

      - Fit. No doubt Prince can help virtually any team in the league. He’s smart and versatile. But he’s miscast as a top two option. Last season should’ve proven that. If Prince is your go-to player, your team is just not very good. If the Pistons have two or three other moves that reduce the perimeter logjam and brings in two competent bigs, then maybe it’s worth exploring bringing Prince back, depending on what they give up in those deals. But the lockout is going to wipe out the offseason. The salary structure of teams post lockout could be drastically altered. It’s unrealistic to think the Pistons will be able to pull off significant trades of their big-salaried players in an abbreviated offseason once the lockout ends.

      - “Its just a fact that if we re-sign Prince we are a better team.” OK. Support this ‘fact.’ Last season, with a fully healthy and productive Prince, the Pistons were not a good team. Letting him go might make the Pistons a bit worse. But are they a guaranteed playoff team with him? Their ceiling with him is maybe the eight seed. Is that worth the financial commitment?

      “For those of you who don’t think highly of Prince remember the minutes he was playing for USA basketball.  Just proves how solid a player this guy is.  To think otherwise is stupid.”

      First of all, he was playing those minutes for USA Basketball three years ago. He’s 31 now. Age, I’ve heard, tends to cause players to decline in ability.

      Secondly, you randomly picking out something like “three years ago, he was a competent role player for the Olympic team” doesn’t prove anything, other than you can pick out random trivia.

      Third, again, no one in the post or in this comments thread wrote that Prince is a bad player. No one wrote or said that he wouldn’t help most teams he’s on. The question is, at the cost he’ll command, is it worth it for a team that is clearly rebuilding to invest in him long-term?

      • Jul 12, 201111:18 am
        by Jason

        Reply

        Dude I disagree with your basketball analysis in so many levels.   First, I can’t wait to shove shit in your face with comments this next year.

        Cost – Obviously only sign for the right price.  He is easily worth 7 million though.  Any real basketball analyst knows Jerebko is a power forward.  Yes he can play the 3 defensively but come on.  I am not sold on Daye and would love to be proven wrong.  Not sure I will though.

        As for Fit my answer to cost explains that. 

        Look last year was bad for so many reasons.  Ownership, coach , player, fans, .  Everything just wasn’t there and for you to relate it to Prince is stupid.

        Your last comments related team USA just pisses me off.  Are you really that stupid to look past that yes he was playing great minutes when all the these so called stars and leaders were on the team as well.  How the HELL do you not consider that in your analysis of him.  To me I use it to show the obvious for people like you to understand.  Since probably you don’t notice in games how good he is.  For christ sakes I can remember so many times Kuester would switch him defensively on someone playing good.  And then see that guy get shut down.

        I never said I disagree with you I was just putting my fricken input in.   You dont need to take everyone of my sentences and respond to it.

        • Jul 12, 201111:46 am
          by neutes

          Reply

          Have you looked at the salary for this team in the coming years? When Rip and Max are gone Stuckey, Jerebko, Daye, Knight, and a couple other lottery picks will be under new contracts negating any cap space we would get from them. When Gordon and CV are gone we need to resign Monroe. Basically there is no wiggle room for the next half decade when it comes to the Pistons having cap space.
           
          Nobody is saying Prince isn’t good, but he’s not good enough. Even at the right price bringing back Prince maybe gets us what? 35 wins? At best, and I wouldn’t even go that far. What is the point anymore of trying to eek out a couple extra wins? And at what cost? We’re not just talking a financial cost, but a developmental cost as well.
           
          Would Prince help next year? Yes. But what does he do for the future? He does more harm than good. When you are rebuilding you have to look long-term. Heck, maybe we aren’t rebuilding. I have no idea, but we sure as heck should be.

          • Jul 12, 20119:07 pm
            by detroitpcb

            neutes is on point.

            prince is a very valuable player and i am sure that several GM’s around the league value his services but he is absolutely the wrong player to bring back to the Pistons.

        • Jul 12, 201112:37 pm
          by Patrick Hayes

          Reply

          Shove what in my face? That I think it’s a bad move for a rebuilding team to re-sign a good, but limited, 31-year-old who plays a position where the Pistons have an abundance of young players who need minutes to develop?

          I don’t think it will come to you having to shove that in my face, because I don’t think they will re-sign him. It doesn’t make sense for either party. That doesn’t mean Prince isn’t good. He is good. As nuetes says below, he’s just not good, young or cheap enough to invest in long-term considering the makeup and financial state of the team.

          • Jul 12, 201112:43 pm
            by Jason

            I wasnt just refering to Tprince about calling you out on.

            I know you don’t like Dumars and have the otehr stuff you really really like to disagree with me on.

          • Jul 12, 20111:09 pm
            by Patrick Hayes

            I don’t like Dumars? When have I ever written that? There are moves he’s made that I disagree with, sure. But I still consider him among the top GMs in the league.

          • Jul 12, 20111:18 pm
            by Jason

            The hell you do Patrick.  I think you are bipolar.

          • Jul 12, 20111:30 pm
            by Patrick Hayes

            Haha. Maybe so my friend. But you are the one on here talking about adding people “to your calendar” and “shoving shit in my face.”

        • Jul 12, 20113:47 pm
          by Jason

          Reply

          @Jason – What are you 12 years old, dude? 

          Patrick’s analysis makes nothing BUT sense, you have extremely flawed logic. He said 10 times in his post/comments that of COURSE Prince is a good player, and will still be productive. Clearly you haven’t reached a level of arithmetic to understand the financial aspect of resigning Prince.

          We need BIGS, plain and simple. We have a ton of options at the Wing, the last thing we need to do is resign Prince to a 7million per year deal, when we’ll have young guys sitting on the bench, while our offense continues to be Isolayshaun. Should we be getting rid of Rip? OF COURSE! It’s not that easy… Why? Because Dumars did exactly what you are suggesting we do with Prince – overpay an aging veteran because he was our best player (on a bad team) the previous year. Again, you aren’t looking at the bigger picture.

          No one is suggesting that immediately, our other alternatives at the Wing will be a better option then Prince – BUT, allowing them playing time to develop will surely be a positive, especially when it opens up extra funds to fill a true need – i/e Center/Shot blocking Forward. to compliment Monroe.

          We are a rebuilding team, with a young core.. That NEEDS to continue, if we want any shot at getting back to a playoff team. We will forever be grateful for Prince’s contributions, but it’s unfortunately his time to go.. Resigning Prince will undoubtedly lead to the end of the Dumars era – I can guarantee you that..

          • Jul 12, 20113:55 pm
            by Jason

            @Jason

            Nice name bad argument you present.  Did you know July through November spells Jason by the way.

            I am not saying we have to resign him and my argument when these guys is more than just from this point.  

            But I will tell you losing Prince reducing our ability to match up on the defensive end big time. Personally I wouldn’t be surprised if we Singler takes the starting position if we lose Prince.

          • Jul 12, 20114:12 pm
            by Jason

            I understand your love for Prince, I have just as much love for Rip, Chauncey, Ben, and Rasheed… BUT, you have to know when to break from these guys.. RIP is a lost cause, he was given a gigantic contract our of respect (And hope), and we’ve been unable to move him since. 

            The same thing will happen with Prince.. Undoubtedly we get worse, once getting rid of him.. BUT, NOT signing him means we’ll have the extra funds to help out down low, and find a shot blocker.. There will be a trade off. If we can get someone else to help out in the front court, the loss on defense will be okay.. To be honest, most people aren’t worried about losing on the defensive end, because Jerebko should fill in just fine.. It’s the offensive end that we’ll miss Prince, being he was such a big part of the that end of the court last season. 

            Either route, Daye/Jerebko combo should be fine, especially if we can find a shot blocker/rebounder with the money we DONT spend on Prince.

            No doubt Prince will be missed, but it’s something that needs to be done if this team wants to get back to the positive side of the wins/loss ratio.

          • Jul 12, 20114:47 pm
            by Jason

            Its not about a love for Prince.  Its about a really good small forward who fits perfect with who we have at the one, two and 4 spots.
            We probably will lose him though.

            By the way your argument on how we will miss him on the offensive end not the defensive end is completely stupid.  Stop talking.

          • Jul 12, 20115:22 pm
            by Jason

            Bro, you sound like the kind of little prick i’d LOVE to meet up with one day.. (Preferably at a Pistons game, so I can teach you a little bit about basketball)

            How in the world does Prince fit in with our current team?? He fits in a team where he ISN’T required to be the go to player.. Or else we have ISOLAYSHAUN. Have you never heard that term?? Have you not heard that knock on Pistons style of play last year???

            There was NO TEAM CHEMISTRY that made us so good during our glory years… Something tells me you aren’t old enough to truly understand this…  You were playing Pokemon during our last Championship, i’m quite certain. Your pathetic attempt at making a point, but simply dismissing everyone else is extremely ignorant. You trash Patrick and Dan’s credibility, yet fail to respect that this is ESPN’s True Hoops affiliate for Detroit Basketball.. They gave that title to Patrick and Dan – because they are more then deserving, specifically due to their basketball IQ, and analysis. 

            My point is that if the theory is “Let Tayshaun walk, and use those funds on a SHOT BLOCKING / REBOUNDING Big Man”, then yes – my theory makes complete sense. If you actually watched Detroit basketball last season, you’d know that Prince played a large role in the offensive game plan. His defense (while still good), had declined as he’s gotten older.. These aren’t OPINIONS, these are FACTS. It’s not about STATS, its about ACTUAL PERFORMANCE. Your eyes should be able to see that clear as day.. 

            So, yes – we will lose him from as one of the main scorers, but have Jerebko – and an eventual shot blocker (hopefully) that will more then make up for the loss in defensive ability. (Personal attack removed) How about this, quit being so damn narrow minded, and actually  accept that you don’t know everything.. You’ll find that you will get a lot further in life once you accept that basic fact.

      • Jul 12, 201111:19 am
        by khandor

        Reply

        Patrick,
        re: cost
        Hamilton, at the SF position, is simply NOT an effective alternative to Prince.
        re: fit
        If Prince is miscast as a No. 2 Option, IYO, then, the correct way to handle this type of situation is not to get rid of him but, rather, to bring on-board another player or two that can function effectively as the Pistons’ No. 1 or 2 Option, so that Prince can effectively slide down the Preferred Option Chart, into a role for which his individual game was perhaps better designed. This is the way a top notch NBA GM would choose to handle a Cat like Prince on a team like the current Pistons, if the eventual goal is actually to re-build towards a future championship.
        re: Prince makes Detroit a better team next season but how good exactly would that be
        Expect to see Detroit challenge for a bottom tier playoff position next season with a Cat like Prince still on-board, given their other additions since the end of last season. Where Detroit should right be expected to show much more improvement, however – with a Cat like Prince still on-board – is 2 and 3 seasons from now, when he is still within his best before years as a high level NBA player, i.e. 27-35 – and their other more youthful players are closer to their individual primes.
        re: Prince played well for USA Basketball but it was 3 years ago, he is 31 now
        The best-conditioned athletes in the NBA customarily perform at a high level until the age of 35.

        • Jul 12, 201111:34 am
          by getsomepistons

          Reply

          Prince averaged the most FGA per game last season when we had Stuckey, Gordon, and Hamilton on the roster.  This was caused by Kuester’s unwillingness to incorporate Gordon into the gameplan, and utilize Hamilton properly, and lack of discipline imposed on Rodney, to be sure.  If you watched the games, however, you’d know that Tayshaun turned into a bit of a ball-stopper last season and didn’t have much chemistry with others besides Rip.

        • Jul 12, 201111:39 am
          by brgulker

          Reply

          Hamilton, at the SF position, is simply NOT an effective alternative to Prince.

          As a stop gap measure on a thirty-win team, Hamilton can approximate Prince as the third SF on the depth chart behind Daye and Jerebko just fine. Everyone who’s watched Rip knows he’s not a full-time SF. You’re preaching to the choir.  

          If Prince is miscast as a No. 2 Option, IYO, then, the correct way to handle this type of situation is not to get rid of him but, rather, to bring on-board another player or two that can function effectively as the Pistons’ No. 1 or 2 Option, so that Prince can effectively slide down the Preferred Option Chart, into a role for which his individual game was perhaps better designed

          Because those types of number one options are so easy to find? They’re not. Because we have the salary profile that would allows us to do so? We don’t.  Because we have the personnel resources to facilitate a trade that brings such a player in? Nope. 

          Again you’re preaching to the choir. Every Pistons fan understands that Prince is a complementary player who is very good at that role. But we don’t need that role to be filled by a thirty-one year old on the contract he’s likely to command, when we can approximate the production from two younger, cheaper players — precisely because finding the #1 or #2 option for Prince to complement is so difficult. 

          The best-conditioned athletes in the NBA customarily perform at a high level until the age of 35.

          What world do you live in? At 35, the overwhelming majority of NBA players are retired. That’s simply a fact, as much as the sky appears blue to human perception is a fact.

          Expect to see Detroit challenge for a bottom tier playoff position next season with a Cat like Prince still on-board, given their other additions since the end of last season.

          When you’re proven wrong about this (assuming the roster isn’t significantly overhauled, of course), I will remember to mention this to you, at which point you will blame coaching, team cohesion, or some other non-falsifiable source to defend your untenable position.

          The Pistons aren’t a playoff-caliber team. Everyone but you and Joe Dumars seems willing to admit this — even Prince himself has said this publicly! Brandon Knight doesn’t change that. Prince coming back a year older doesn’t change that.

          (Maybe a healthy Jerebko and one qualify FA signing eeks us into Indiana’s spot next season. A lot would have to go right to get there…)

          • Jul 12, 201112:39 pm
            by Jason

            @brgulker

            I put you in my calendar buddy for you reminder.  Dumars will prove you wrong and that sucks cause you will not be able to enjoy our success.

            WE HAVE VERY SOLID PLAYERS JUST THE WRONG MIX.  TO SAY OTHER WISE IS PLAIN BASKETBALL STUPIDITY.

            And to blame Dumars when he could move players he wanted is even more stupid.

          • Jul 12, 201112:44 pm
            by Jason

            I meant when he couldn’t move players.

          • Jul 12, 201112:53 pm
            by Patrick Hayes

            I credit Dumars for many things. Winning the title, signing Billups/Wallace to incredible below-market contracts, drafting solid players even if he couldn’t keep them all or develop them here (Okur, Cardinal, Jerebko, Stuckey, Afflalo, Johnson, Monroe, Prince, etc.). But the Villanueva/Gordon signings and Hamilton extensions were killers. Absolutely atrocious signings, all of them. I love Dumars for his playing career, I think he’s still a mostly competent GM, but those are his moves. They’ve been terrible and he has to own them.

            I don’t agree with Ben to the extent that Dumars deserves to lose his job. And yes, the ownership situation tied his hands in recent years. But you know what? If he hadn’t signed Gordon/Villanueva/Hamilton to outrageous contracts that exceeded their market value, his hands wouldn’t have been so significantly tied. So yes, he was in a bad situation because of the ownership. But yes, he also contributed significantly to the team’s inability to take on salary by capping them out with signings of not very good players.

          • Jul 12, 20111:04 pm
            by Jason

            @ Patrick

            the fact you are saying Gordon and Charlie V is a failure shows you can’t step back and look at the whole situation.  When you can’t make other moves to shape the right mix of course they are not going to look good.

            Some other factors.  First the pistons do have to pay more for players cause of state taxes.  So like a player signing in Florida is not going to request as much cause it does not have state taxes. 

            Also Gores said it himself that community guys will get paid more.  Gordon and Charlie V are huge community players.  

            So if Gordon was not here Hamiltons numbers would obviously be better right.  So then he wouldnt be as overpaid as YOU think correct.  Or are you too blind to see that. 

          • Jul 12, 20111:18 pm
            by Dan Feldman

            Jason, I have two simple yes/no questions for you:

            Knowing what you know now, if you could go back, would you want the Pistons to sign Ben Gordon?

            Knowing what you know now, if you could go back, would you want the Pistons to sign Charlie Villanueva?

          • Jul 12, 20111:23 pm
            by Patrick Hayes

            @Jason:

            It’s not that I’m not looking at bigger picture. I realize that Dumars’ plan wasn’t simply to sign those guys and call it good. I’m saying that he made a mistake by signing them for way too much money. He signed them both on the first day of free agency. He set the market for them. To me, that’s a mistake. The only players you pounce on like that are max-worthy guys, IMO. I mean, do we know that if the Pistons hadn’t offered Gordon $12 million that another team would’ve?

            I don’t think either player proved in Chicago or Milwaukee they were worth what they got paid here. I think they both seem like swell guys. But handing out swell guys above-market contracts isn’t a sound business strategy, particularly when you have to operate within a strict budget as Dumars always has. They are actually outliers when it comes to Dumars signings. Prior to them, he had a reputation for being a tough negotiator, for not going over-budget on players. Ben Wallace and Mehmet Okur wanted more than he was willing to pay, so he wished them well and let them go. He also let Billups try and get a better offer when he hit free agency. Unlike Wallace, though, Billups didn’t find a team willing to beat the Pistons offer.

            Those three were all way better players than Gordon or Villanueva, yet for some reason, Dumars felt the need to set their market. I think it was a bad strategy that resulted in overpaying for them.

            As for Hamilton, I don’t think he’d necessarily be better minus Gordon’s presence. Hamilton was in his 30s when he signed his extension. Guards decline rapidly when they hit that age, particularly guards like Hamilton, whose game is predicated on speed. So yes, I think it was a mistake to sign him to an expensive long-term contract. Based on data comparing many, many guards over the years, there was a good bet that Hamilton’s play would decline, and it has. I think that extension was a bad gamble on Dumars’ part, even if his intention was to trade Hamilton eventually.

            It’s entirely possible that Dumars had some grandiose plan that only got half off the ground with these signings. But the point is, he overpaid in all three cases. Even if he would’ve acquired more help, he still overpaid for Gordon and Villanueva. Consider that Golden State is desperately trying to peddle a better version of Gordon in Monta Ellis b/c small SGs who don’t do much other than score are just not that valuable. And Villanueva is not even as productive as Matt Bonner, who makes about half as much as he does.

          • Jul 12, 20111:28 pm
            by Jason

            @ Dan

            I know what you are trying to do.  I can’t predict that I wouldn’t of been able to trade Rip cause of ownership.  Or that I was forced to hire Kuester and not be able to fire him.  I can’t help that my coach can’t instruct our point guard to run the office.

            yes I would of signed Gordon back then after what I saw in Chicago and yes I would of signed Charlie V from what I saw in Milwaukee.

            To give you a perspective on Charlie.  If he was on the Heat they would of won the championship.  He spreads the offense out.   Do you watch games?

          • Jul 12, 20111:35 pm
            by Patrick Hayes

            Jason, why did Milwaukee not even offer Villanueva a qualifying offer, making him an unrestricted free agent, if he was so good there? That team couldn’t wait to get rid of him. They didn’t even want to risk having him back on what would’ve been a very reasonable amount of money if they’d extended the qualifying offer.

            And there was a reason the Bulls never wanted to pay Gordon more than what he was getting on his rookie deal. They didn’t believe he was worth what he was looking for.

            Those teams saw those guys up close every day and decided they weren’t worth their asking prices. To me, that should’ve been a major red flag.

          • Jul 12, 20111:42 pm
            by Dan Feldman

            Jason, sorry, I must not have worded those questions clearly. Let me try again.

            Knowing what you know now, if you could go back, would you want the Pistons to sign Ben Gordon?

            Knowing what you know now, if you could go back, would you want the Pistons to sign Charlie Villanueva?

          • Jul 12, 20111:44 pm
            by Jason

            @patrick
            Now your making assumptions to win your argument.  You don’t know shit about what milwaukees or chicago intentions were.  You don’t know if phone calls were made or what. 

            You should switch to baseball cause you think you know all this game basketball by reading opinions and looking at stats.  Its obvious you don’t watch the games.

            I am done arguing with you statboy.

          • Jul 12, 20111:44 pm
            by Dan Feldman

            As far as Prince and Team USA, there was this dominating belief then that Team USA needed more role players. They didn’t pick Prince because they thought he was one of the nation’s best players.

          • Jul 12, 20111:52 pm
            by Patrick Hayes

            Haha. Done arguing? You have yet to form your first argument man. These are bloodbaths, not arguments. Here are a couple links on the Villanueva/Bucks divorce:

            http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/49448872.html

            http://ken-berger.blogs.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/11838893/15802484

            And Ben Gordon’s contract squabbles with Chicago were well know. The team just didn’t want to pay him because they’d already paid Hinrich and Deng:

            http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2008-09-30/sports/0809290701_1_bulls-long-term-extension-agent-next-summer

            http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/writers/ian_thomsen/10/31/weekly.countdown/

            Gordon and Villanueva are useful players in the right situation. They had some upside when the Pistons signed them. But the fact is, Dumars set the market for them as soon as free agency opened and overpaid both of them.

             

          • Jul 12, 20112:13 pm
            by Jason

            Well I am working or else I would bring more ammo.  Just don’t have the time.

            BUT CAN’T WAIT TO PROVE YOU TWO STATBOYS WRONG THIS YEAR.

            This is going to a great year for the Pistons.  If we get a defensive center we will make playoff for sure.  No matter who is playing the 3.  But we will see and Dumars will bring it.

            AND TRUST ME I WILL REMIND YOU.

            Its great you have your own website but personally beleive you two are too much about stats and what other reporters say.  Not about the minutes that are played on the court. The fact Prince can shut down a point guard who was dominating the game.  Or the fact Gordon needs a real point guard.  Things you can’t measure with stats.  Things that only can be judged on the court with your own eyes. 

            LOVE THE GAME OF BASKETBALL

            Peace.

          • Jul 12, 20112:23 pm
            by Patrick Hayes

            Why do you assume it’s an ‘either or’ argument? Stats or WATCH THE GAMES? Sure, I look at stats. Sure, I read a lot of different sources. Those things supplement what I watch on the court.

            I’m sorry Jason, but my eyes tell me different things than your eyes do. Disagreements are fine. But look back on this thread … you’ve called me statboy, bipolar and a moron. That doesn’t speak highly of your ability to form reasonable arguments or engage in serious discussions. There are plenty of smart people who read this site every day and have their own opinions/philosophies on basketball. You are one of only a couple readers who acts childish, resorts to name-calling and acts like whatever it is that you see on the court is the end-all, be-all, as if we’re all supposed to trust your eye test. Sorry man, but your eye-test, to quote Jay Bilas, doesn’t pass my smell test.

            And seriously, if you feel like the writers on this site look at stats too much, no one is twisting your arm to read it. Plenty of other writers in the sea who better fit your needs. Maybe you can even find one who will write stories in crayon for you.

          • Jul 12, 20112:59 pm
            by brgulker

            @ Jason,

            You will disappear and/or make excuses when the Pistons return to the lottery next year (Barring a complete overhaul).

            Guaransheed.

          • Jul 12, 20114:34 pm
            by khandor

            Ben,
            re: cost and fit
            Using Hamilton as the 3rd SF, behind Daye and Jerebko is not as effective as, for example, using the following players in the following way:
            PG – Stuckey & Knight
            OG – Gordon & Daye
            SF – Prince & Singler and Jerebko [pending his complete return to good health]
            and, then, trading Hamilton, White and Bynum in exchange for help at other positions of need on the roster.
            re: obtaining legitimate No. 1 and 2 Options
            Yes, it is difficult to obtain these types of assets but … considering that they are most readily obtained with 1st Round picks in the annual NBA Draft … it would seem to be the case that the team took a right step in this direction by adding Brandon Knight this year – who should be able to grow into this type of player within the next few seasons – and by possibly trading a selection of the assets I outlined above, in concert with other players in the Pistons front-court, including Charlie V, in return for the right opponent’s 2012 or 2013 No. 1 Selection in 2012 or 2013.
            re: the majority of NBA players are in decline after 35
            Yes … but, in this instance WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT “the majority” of NBA players over 35 we are talking about only Tayshaun Prince, who happens to fit nicely into the category of “the best conditioned” players in the league.
            re: when the Pistons don’t contend for a lower tier playoff position next season
            … I will not need to make excuses for Joe Dumars, since I will state right now that the Pistons fate in this regard WILL, in fact, be dependent on what specific choice Joe Dumars actually makes when it comes to hiring his next head coach and how exactly that head coach eventually decides to use the players on his roster, i.e. A) Properly; or B) Not Properly, Tayshaun Prince included.
            re: putting me in the same boat with Joe Dumars
            I would consider that to be an honour, as Joe D. is an accomplished basketball person for whom I have a tremendous amount of respect.

        • Jul 12, 20114:01 pm
          by Jason

          Reply

          “Maybe you can even find one who will write stories in crayon for you..”

          HAHAHA!!  Nice..
          Well said, Patrick. The kid just simply doesn’t understand, he thinks stats/ references are worthless, clearly showing his inability to correctly analyze the game of basketball.  

          Jason, we didn’t become the great Pistons by overpaying aging veterans. In fact, it was the opposite. Dumars was able to bring together a group of skilled players, at low contracts, that just so happened to work together and play team basketball. That lead to the glory years that the Pistons had for the better part of the last decade.

          In recent years, Dumars has done the exact opposite. He HAS overpaid players, with contracts that simply do not match up to the skill sets we received in return. I lived in Chicago for the Gordon signing, i can tell you Bulls fans were ecstatic that the Bulls didn’t give BG that same contract.. He CAN be great, but he is one dimensional.. And unless you can score at will EVERY single night, one dimensional players are not deserving of that kind of money.. The same can be said of Villanueva, neither player fits the mold of a Deeetroit Bad Boy.. DO YOU WATCH GAMES? If you do, you would understand these basic concepts. It’s not like Patrick and Dan are the only one’s saying this either.. Look around older posts in the archives – there have been hundreds of people calling for immediate firing of Dumars because of these very signings, that you seem to justify based on your “eyes”.

          Grow up kid, open those eyes a little and understand the bigger picture. You don’t sign players to giant contracts, when your highest paid players play the same positions,, (And have gaping holes at other positions.)

          You’ll learn one day.. (I hope)

          • Jul 12, 20114:47 pm
            by khandor

            re: the BG signing
            Ben Gordon was not used properly in Chicago. Unfortunately, Ben Gordon has not been used properly in Detroit, either … at least, not to this point. When Ben Gordon was signed by the Pistons it was only going to work if he was used as the back-up PG in a strictly 3-guard rotation involving Rodney Stuckey, Rip Hamilton and Ben Gordon [i.e. exclusively at the PG and OG positions]. Unfortunately, when Michael Curry and John Kuester chose not to go in this direction at these two positions … there is no legitimate way to deny that the Ben Gordon signing was a mistake for the Pistons.
            re: the CV signing
            Charlie V is a poor PF who Joe D. should not have signed. Period. No GM in the NBA is ever able to work effectively over a long period of time without making at least a few mistakes along the way. Joe D. is far from perfect and has made his good share of errors, including the Darko Pick and the Charlie V. signing, amongst others, as well.
            Despite this mis-steps, it indicates a serious lack of sound basketball judgment to express the belief that Joe D. is still not one of the best GMs in the NBA.

          • Jul 12, 20114:59 pm
            by Jason

            @ Jason

            You know the great thing about sports. Its not about what people say its about the Wins and Losses.  You will be reminded in the coming years of what Joe D is about.

            @khandor

            I am not sold on Charlie V either and may have been a mistake but one point I will make.  If he was on the Heat they would of won the Championship. If you remember they had trouble spreading it out offensively. A shooting power forward will ALWAYS be a huge asset offensively.  Maybe only offensively with Charlie V though.

          • Jul 12, 20115:02 pm
            by Patrick Hayes

            “If he was on the Heat they would of won the Championship.”

            Haha … the Villanueva/Bosh frontline reunited at last. That worked out so well for the Toronto Raptors.

          • Jul 12, 20115:30 pm
            by Jason

            @ Jason -

            Instead of actually responding to my criticisms of your logic, you just say “You will be reminded by wins and losses”.. Riiiiiight.

            Did you understand my point about contracts?? Can you at least stretch open that narrow mind of yours for a second, and look at what made the 03-08 Pistons so good? What built that team? It was Dumars ability at the time to get extremely good value, out of very small contracts. (Considering the production) He put together a team of guys who fit perfectly together, and didn’t have to spend an arm and a leg doing so.. That was smart decision making, and while may not be the easiest thing to repeat, it would be smart to go back to that philosophy.

            Paying big money for aging veterans will not pan out in the long run. That was my point.. If your suggestion is to throw truck loads of money to Tayshaun – then the Pistons will not make the playoffs.. Again, and again and again.

          • Jul 13, 20117:46 am
            by khandor

            Jason,
            re: “@khandor
            I am not sold on Charlie V either and may have been a mistake but one point I will make.  If he was on the Heat they would of won the Championship. If you remember they had trouble spreading it out offensively. A shooting power forward will ALWAYS be a huge asset offensively.  Maybe only offensively with Charlie V though.”
            I respectfully disagree that adding Charlie V. – i.e. as a stretch 4 – would have allowed Miami to win this past year’s NBA championship, since whatever value he adds in that regard is MORE THAN out-weighed by what he detracts from a team through his lackadaisical defensive transition, atrocious half-court defense and sub-standard rebounding.
            IMO, Miami should still have been good enough to win the NBA Title this past season, even without a stretch 4 like CV, if: A) They would have received better coaching from Erik Spoelstra … who is still a young coach learning what is necessary to accomplish this specific goal … and, B) LeBron James was better equipped to handle a secondary scoring role … i.e. in support of D-Wade last season … than he has shown each of the past 2 seasons, when he has failed to maintain his offensive flow, and “turtled” emotionally, faced with the challenge of playing WITHIN a “team concept” that did not involve him as the offensive center-piece of the team.
            In most regards, however, I think we agree about the limited ability of a one-way player like CV.

      • Jul 12, 201111:19 am
        by getsomepistons

        Reply

        He’s an older 31, too, when we consider that he’s played nearly an extra season and a half worth of games in the playoffs at 37.4 minutes per game.

        That said, I haven’t seen a noticeable decline in his game in any area besides the defensive end -which has as much to do with not having an athletic defensive anchor/WallaceX2.

        • Jul 12, 201111:33 am
          by Jason

          Reply

          Totally agree with the defensive anchor comment.   You put someone like Chandler down there I could put us up there with the Hawks right away.  If Knight is very solid we could be even better.

          • Jul 12, 201111:36 am
            by Vince

            I’d love to have Chandler on the team, I’ve always liked him, the thing is he’ll be looking for a big long term contract and I’m not sure the Pistons are his favored destination. We can always dream about it though. He’d be a great addition for Detroit.

          • Jul 12, 201111:40 am
            by brgulker

            There is no way Cuban lets Chandler get away. How is this not obvious?

          • Jul 12, 201111:40 am
            by getsomepistons

            Good luck prying a starting C away from the defending champions without grossly overpaying.
            The unavailability of players like Chandler is why I coveted Bismack Biyombo so badly in this draft :-(

          • Jul 12, 201112:52 pm
            by Jason

            I said a guy LIKE Chandler.  Doesn’t have to be him.  

            I don’t see Chandler getting away either but you never know with the new CBA.

          • Jul 12, 20111:47 pm
            by Dan Feldman

            How are the Pistons going to get Chandler or someone like him? They won’t have cap room, and they don’t have the trade assets necessary.

  • Jul 12, 201110:57 am
    by getsomepistons

    Reply

    I’d usually advocate for a Tayshaun sign and trade to a playoff team in exchange for a C (or other SF, likely on a bad contract), but until I see a new CBA I’m wary of adding to our salary total.  A hard cap, or lowered soft cap, would diminish most of the value that Prince has for Detroit.

    • Jul 12, 201111:34 am
      by Vince

      Reply

      Tayshaun Prince & Jason Maxiell for Andre Iguodala? Call me crazy but I’d do it. Either that or we don’t re-sign Prince and trade Rip Hamilton and Jason Maxiell to the Bulls for Boozer. I must admit though that the latter would prove more interesting…

      • Jul 12, 201111:39 am
        by getsomepistons

        Reply

        Back when Elton Brand’s value was in the basement I was a proponent of a trade that would send a package featuring Hamilton and Prince for Iguodala and Brand.  Iggy seems to think he’s staying in Philadelphia and Brand has since had a bit of a resurgence.

        If we’re trading Rip to Chicago we’d have to get back one of their SGs in return.  They have a 2-guard by committee over there with Kyle Korver, Ronnie Brewer, and Keith Bogans.  Adding Rip without moving one of them would be overkill.  I’d also advise Chicago to see what a healthy Noah/Boozer combination can do before I trade either of them, as they missed something like 57 combined games last season.

      • Jul 12, 20111:48 pm
        by Dan Feldman

        Reply

        Of course the Pistons would. But no way Philly does.

  • Jul 12, 201112:02 pm
    by Laser

    Reply

    i won’t say it’s necessarily a smart move for prince, but this would be a good move by the pistons. they’re not going to get anyone else’s free agents, so why not bring back one of your leaders, best players, most versatile guys? he maybe isn’t the difference between making the playoffs and wallowing in the lottery (not that simply making the playoffs so you can say you did is a noble goal), but he’s the kind of player i want on my team. and we don’t have an answer at small forward. i don’t see why this would be so bad for the pistons. yes, they should be getting younger, but age alone is not a reason to let a player walk who can still be productive and is probably still in his prime. he had the best season of his career last year and emerged as a go-to scorer when the shot clock is running out, which this team desperately needs.

    and you people need to get over this hangup about: “oh, this team was a toxic environment last season and we need to dump the malcontents!” everything that was (and is) wrong with this team is joe dumars’s fault. he put together a shit-rotten roster and hired consecutive shit-garbage coaches, then he let it all stew. i’d be more concerned with getting rid of the guys who DIDN’T have a bad attitude last season. at least the ones who grumbled and butted heads with the incompetent coach were FRUSTRATED, like i was, and like you should have been. if they just kept a smiling face and played ball, i’d be concerned about their competitiveness, desire to win, and i’d think they were just a spoiled millionaire content to cash his paycheck and play games.

    if everyone on the roster last season was smiles and sunshine, we would have lost the exact same number of games. plus i would have worried about every single one of them personally, and i would have questioned their sanity and commitment to this team. the malcontents weren’t content because there was nothing to be content about. at all. it’s time to recognize that the team’s problems go all the way to the top, and there’s no sense blaming anybody but joe for creating a scenario where discord was an inevitable eventuality.

    if prince decides to come back, it’s safe to say he knows what he’s in for and will be a good citizen. and let’s not forget the fact that he’s going to be highly tradable (on, say, a roughly $10m annual salary) for a few years, making him an asset on the books. and we don’t have very many assets. it would be crazy to let one go.

    • Jul 12, 201112:42 pm
      by Patrick Hayes

      Reply

      “so why not bring back one of your leaders, best players, most versatile guys?”

      Because it’s extremely expensive to do so. Because it takes minutes away from young players. Daye may or may not end up being better than Prince. I’d lean towards ‘not.’ But they will never know what they have in him until he plays significant minutes. Prince’s presence would ensure that Daye wouldn’t get minutes.

      It’s not that Prince isn’t a solid and smart player. It’s that he would add long-term salary. That is a bigger detriment to the team than any short-term gain they’d get by bringing him back. And, you may say, “Well, they can just trade him if/when Daye is ready for a bigger role.” But because he’s already 31, his value will plummet each season of a long-term deal.

      If Prince desperately wants to retire a Piston and takes below market value to do that, I’m all for it. But if he expects to get one last big contract, the Pistons would be wise to pass.

      • Jul 12, 201112:49 pm
        by Jason

        Reply

        Its funny after you say

        “Support this ‘fact.’ Last season, with a fully healthy and productive Prince, the Pistons were not a good team.”

        But then keep saying he is a solid player.  Why don’t you just admit you don’t think he is? 

        • Jul 12, 201112:58 pm
          by Patrick Hayes

          Reply

          He’s a solid player who is not a No. 1 or No. 2 option. He’s miscast in that role. He’s not an All-Star. He’s a guy who is capable of getting his own shot in the right situation. But if you need him to get his own shot often, as the Pistons did last season, you see an offense that becomes bogged down in flow-killing isolations.

          He’s much, much better as a third or fourth option on a good team. Which, incidentally, is exactly the role he played so well when he was the third or fourth best player on the Pistons’ contending teams of the 2000s.

          I don’t get what we’re missing here? I mean, who things Prince is any more than a very good role player? What evidence out there suggests he is? He’s been in the league a long time. He kind of is what he is at this point, no? Would you pay him to be your No. 1 or No. 2 option?

          • Jul 12, 20111:16 pm
            by Jason

            What argument are you trying to make Patrick.  I don’t anyone is saying he is gifted at offense.   Who cares what option he is.  He is average at offense and ranks at the top at defense.

            What evidence you ask.  The damn USA basketball team.  He was able to play over all the all stars.  I don’t need any more evidence stat boy.

            Sorry he doesn’t have star power to make the all star team.

          • Jul 12, 20111:28 pm
            by Patrick Hayes

            @Jason:

            Well, you need one more piece of evidence:

            http://www.usabasketball.com/seniormen/2008/stats/USA.HTM

            “What evidence you ask.  The damn USA basketball team.  He was able to play over all the all stars.  I don’t need any more evidence stat boy.”

            Prince played 11 minutes per game for Team USA. The only guys who played less were Boozer and Michael Redd. So it’s a bit hyperbolic on your part to say that he “was able to play over all the all stars” isn’t it? I mean, it’s just totally untrue. He backed up “all the all stars” for a few minutes a game.

          • Jul 12, 20111:48 pm
            by Jason

            Why don’t you include the other years of USA basketball.  I wasn’t just talking about the olympics you moron.  I mean STATBOY.

            Keep it coming cause if you go back and look at Justin Rogers early articles last year about Prince.  I tore him a knew one as well cause he was wrong about Prince and the team as well.  And he respectfuly agreed by not reporting on it anymore.

          • Jul 12, 20111:59 pm
            by Patrick Hayes

            http://www.usabasketball.com/bios/prince_tayshaun.html

            Which year did he play big minutes? He played slightly more in 2007 in the qualifiers, but still didn’t start a game. And a few of the stars skipped that tournament for other commitments.

            Also, I know Justin and Justin’s writing and his ability to form logical sentences. I know your reasoning abilities based on your commenting here. With that knowledge, I would be willing to wager that you never have or will win an argument against Justin on any subject.

        • Jul 12, 20111:05 pm
          by neutes

          Reply

          Prince is a solid player, but he’s not Lebron. He’s average, and on this team average is pretty good. Fact is we’re going to suck with or without Prince. Might as well suck a little more, save some cash, and hit the lotto again. We could add another piece to Knight and Monroe next year and get this show on the road. If we re-sign Prince we spend the money, worsen our draft position, don’t give Daye or Jerebko as many minutes, take away a spot where Rip could possibly play giving our guards more leeway, and in the end still suck. I’ll gladly suck another year to get out of this mess beyond that, but any move that I think is going to make us suck for longer is one I can’t back.

        • Jul 12, 20111:06 pm
          by Vince

          Reply

          Jason, the fact is a Prince re-signing would ruin the young talent and the opportunity to improve their potential. We already have Daye, Jonas, Singler and even Rip who can all play the 3, three of those players are young and full of potential that would be wasted if Prince gets re-signed. The Pistons’ roster already has a logjam at the G positions, there’s one building up at the PF position and if we add Prince then both forwards spots are jammed, preventing any young talent to develop. It’s a waste of money, talent and just plain unfair for the Pistons and Prince. Let him retire in a contending team or one in a better situation than the Pistons. Seriously. Stop thinking he’s 28 and the Pistons are a contending team.

          • Jul 12, 20114:04 pm
            by George A Jensen

            I’d say there already is a logjam at PF, especially if Jerebko comes back strong and plays at the 4.  Jason Maxiell was paid 5 million a year to play 16 minutes a game at third on the depth chart.

          • Jul 13, 20113:53 am
            by Vince

            @George

            Technically, yes. But lets face it, Macklin is replacing Maxiell in the lineup (at least thats what I understood when we drafted him) , Macklin can also play Center so its not all lost. That gives us a rotation of JJ/CV/Macklin/Maxiell at PF and Monroe/Wallace/Macklin at Center. I could live with those rotations.

          • Jul 13, 201111:13 am
            by brgulker

            I think saying Macklin even making the team is premature at this point. There’s a reason he went #52 in the draft (terrible rebounder, poor shooter). To say he’s taking anyone’s place, in spite of Max’s recent struggles, is a reach, IMHO.

    • Jul 12, 20114:34 pm
      by brgulker

      Reply

      $10 million per year for an aging Prince is “fair” and “tradeable”?

  • Jul 12, 20111:29 pm
    by Jonathan

    Reply

    Am I the only one looking over my shoulder at my JOB to read this discussion!  Great stuff!  Time to get back to work.

  • Jul 12, 20112:44 pm
    by DSV

    Reply

    At this point… even at a “fair” contract, I still wonder what the best possible scenario of having Prince on the team is? Prince’s trade value seems to be the only value he would have to the Pistons at the moment, and even on a fair contract I would wonder what better trade options we would have mid season that we don’t have via a sign and trade right away. I think neutes and vince hit it pretty well with their latest comments; the more feasible beneficial scenario here is to put our chips in the Daye/Jerebko/Singler barrel and hope that one or more of them find a niche on the team (that would be significantly cheaper for the time being) and/or build up their own trade value.

    • Jul 12, 20114:00 pm
      by Patrick Hayes

      Reply

      Yep. Agree with this. And I would add, it’s likely, depending on the length of his deal, that his trade value would decrease each season as he ages. Prince isn’t exactly ancient at 31, but he does have a lot of miles as a result of his long consecutive games streak, deep playoff runs each year and his international experience. Who knows when signs of decline will show up, but if he were injured or declined within the next season or two, suddenly he’d become another albatross of a contract.

      • Jul 12, 20114:36 pm
        by brgulker

        Reply

        Maybe it’s just me, but Prince seems exactly like the type of player that a Playoff team would look to add for around the MLE (for 3-4 years, depending on what he’d take to play), but they wouldn’t invest much more than that. 

        I just can’t see a Boston, SA, LA, etc., seeing more value in Prince than that.

        • Jul 12, 20114:42 pm
          by Patrick Hayes

          Reply

          I always thought the Spurs made sense, but since they foolishly paid Jefferson last year, that probably won’t work. I think he’d be an interesting fit with OKC and Miami as a bench guy who cobbles together minutes at multiple positions too. But yeah, I agree with you. I’d be surprised if he got a deal for significantly more than the mid-level.

        • Jul 13, 20117:26 am
          by khandor

          Reply

          Ben,
          If the Pistons hire a head coach who Prince respects, and you believe that quality teams across the league would only have interest in acquiring Prince’s services for the MLE [approx. $5-6 M/yr, which might even come down in the new CBA] then it would make sense for Joe D. to attempt to re-sign Tayshaun at this same money level, and for Prince to accept this offer, since Prince has spent his entire career to-date in Detroit and he has no need to chase a championship elsewhere, unlike other ring-less veterans around the NBA. I haven’t read anyone saying that Joe D. should blow the bank in an attempt to re-sign Prince; but, only that it makes sense for Joe D. to try to re-sign him, post-lockout, as a veteran presence on their team going forward. It would then seem to make sense that Joe D. might prioritize his attempts to find a suitable new home for Rip Hamilton who is a one-dimensional player without a great deal of further value to the Pistons … but who might be of considerable value to a playoff contender for a non-exorbitant price-tag.

        • Jul 13, 201111:20 am
          by brgulker

          Reply

          What I’m saying is that Prince is the type of guy (historically) who ends his career with a Playoff contender. Playoff contenders tend to be able at or above the cap, and thus tend to have a very clear limit on what they can offer guys like Prince.

          Is there some team that might offer him slightly more (something like Charlie V’s current deal?). Perhaps. And perhaps he’s worth that much money, at least for the next 2 seasons. But the point is that playoff teams aren’t going to have more than the MLE to spend, so if Tay wants to go to a winner, that’s the payday he should expect. 

          Anyway, we’re not going to agree on what JoD ought to do. I think it makes more sense to go young and cheap, since we already have Daye and are very likely to retain Jerebko. They are capable of approximating Prince’s production at a cheaper price point, and we get the added bonus of evaluating two young, promising players who may be long-term Pistons.

          • Jul 13, 20115:00 pm
            by khandor

            Ben,
            The 2 younger players that you wish to develop c/would still be able to have that experience with the Pistons next season, if Joe D. can re-sign Prince AND then move Rip Hamilton, by using them in a variety of different ways, including, for example:
            OG – Gordon as the starter; and, Daye as the primary back-up [with limited PT as the 3rd SF]
            SF – Prince as the starter; and, Jerebko as the primary back-up [with limited PT as a back-up PF, as well].
            In fact, the case could well be made that THIS type of personnel usage would actually give these youngsters their best possible chance to continue to develop properly … as heavy-minute back-ups to solid vets with the right attitude towards the ‘team concept’ … rather than throwing them into the fire too soon without a solid veteran defender/rebound at the wing position on the squad at all.
            Then, either, when the Trade Deadline approaches, or during the subsequent off-season, it should not be a significant problem at all, if Joe D. was to determine that the time was right to cash in his chips on Tayshaun, in favour of other assets which would be of more value to the Pistons moving forward with the 2012-1013 squad ready to be lead properly by the likes of Stuckey, Daye, Jerebko, Monroe and, most importantly, Knight for the next decade.
            If NBA history has proven anything at all, it is that anyone can be traded at some date in the future.

  • Jul 12, 20115:37 pm
    by Jason

    Reply

    I think we should all relax and take a moment and watch the following video.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9EGMtbucFD0&feature=related

  • Jul 12, 20119:14 pm
    by Gabe

    Reply

    This thread melted my brain a little.

  • Jul 12, 201110:38 pm
    by Jay

    Reply

    I live Tayshaun probably more than the next guy. But his time in Detroit has come. If Joe D. can’t find a sign-and-trade that Prince agrees to that brings back a shot blocking big, then he just needs to let Prince go. I would just let him free and take all that money I would have paid Prince and put the off out to DeAndre Jordan of the Clippers. He would benefit the Pistons far more in both the short an long term than Tayshaun.
    If the Pistons were to overpay a bit for Jordan I think that the Clippers would be unlikely to match the offer considering the history of Donald Sterling. A 7’1″ shot blocking center who can get you 10pts 12boards a night would be far more valuable than all the expirience and toughness that Prince would provide.

    • Jul 12, 201111:06 pm
      by getsomepistons

      Reply

      A 7’1″ double-double shot-blocking center would get 10-12 million a year in the old CBA.  If Tayshaun is worth 7 or so million like we’d think, then we’d have to throw in some other incentive to land a player like DeAndre Jordan.

      Which, you know, pisses me off, because we could have drafted the guy.  Eat shit, Walter Sharpe.

  • Jul 12, 201110:39 pm
    by Jay

    Reply

    *love

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