Comments on: Is Joe Dumars the 20th best GM in the league? http://www.pistonpowered.com/2011/07/is-joe-dumars-the-20th-best-gm-in-the-league/ Your Go-To Source For Pistons Coverage Wed, 19 Jun 2013 09:22:06 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.4.1 By: DJ hay http://www.pistonpowered.com/2011/07/is-joe-dumars-the-20th-best-gm-in-the-league/comment-page-1/#comment-155540 DJ hay Sat, 15 Jun 2013 17:21:09 +0000 http://www.pistonpowered.com/?p=7136#comment-155540 Hi there just wanted to give you a quick heads up. The words in your post appear to be running off the screen in Internet explorer. I’m not confident if this is a format concern or something to do with internet browser compatibility but I figured I’d post to let you know. The style and style look excellent though! Hope you get the issue solved soon. Thanks Hi there just wanted to give you a quick heads up. The words in your post appear to be running off the screen in Internet explorer. I’m not confident if this is a format concern or something to do with internet browser compatibility but I figured I’d post to let you know. The style and style look excellent though! Hope you get the issue solved soon. Thanks

]]> By: Damonski http://www.pistonpowered.com/2011/07/is-joe-dumars-the-20th-best-gm-in-the-league/comment-page-1/#comment-40169 Damonski Sat, 31 Dec 2011 01:24:12 +0000 http://www.pistonpowered.com/?p=7136#comment-40169 I think you need to score Darko into the overall rating.  But, that mistake hurt the team less than the Billups for Iverson trade.  The overall attitude that Iverson brought to the team hasn't been improved.   It's not like Iverson was getting into fights, but the "I won't play if I don't start" mentality has left more whiners than winners.     I think you need to score Darko into the overall rating.  But, that mistake hurt the team less than the Billups for Iverson trade.  The overall attitude that Iverson brought to the team hasn’t been improved.   It’s not like Iverson was getting into fights, but the “I won’t play if I don’t start” mentality has left more whiners than winners.
 
 

]]> By: brgulker http://www.pistonpowered.com/2011/07/is-joe-dumars-the-20th-best-gm-in-the-league/comment-page-1/#comment-33905 brgulker Wed, 03 Aug 2011 16:17:13 +0000 http://www.pistonpowered.com/?p=7136#comment-33905 @khandor Yeah, Flip Saunders was such a horrible coach that he only managed to win 60+ games once in Detroit. Please. Saunders wasn't good at developing the bench, he wasn't defensive-minded enough, and he ultimately lost the trust of his team. Those were his failures. But the dude was a brilliant offensive coach in Detroit, which is evidenced by the differences in offensive performance when you look at Brown vs. Saunders. Unlike others, I think Flip was the best choice at the time, and I have zero problems with it to this day. If Joe had made some roster tweaks to better suit what Flip was trying to do, we could have been real contenders for at least his first two seasons.   A GM can only hire the best coach available, and there are only so many Hubie Brown's on the planet. Flip had brilliant regular season success, but his failures as a coach made is so that it wasn't repeatable enough in the Playoffs. That coupled with the improvements out East meant we were outside shots at a championship in his tenure. But that doesn't mean he was a failed coach. He wasn't. @khandor

Yeah, Flip Saunders was such a horrible coach that he only managed to win 60+ games once in Detroit.

Please.

Saunders wasn’t good at developing the bench, he wasn’t defensive-minded enough, and he ultimately lost the trust of his team. Those were his failures.

But the dude was a brilliant offensive coach in Detroit, which is evidenced by the differences in offensive performance when you look at Brown vs. Saunders.

Unlike others, I think Flip was the best choice at the time, and I have zero problems with it to this day. If Joe had made some roster tweaks to better suit what Flip was trying to do, we could have been real contenders for at least his first two seasons.  

A GM can only hire the best coach available, and there are only so many Hubie Brown’s on the planet. Flip had brilliant regular season success, but his failures as a coach made is so that it wasn’t repeatable enough in the Playoffs.

That coupled with the improvements out East meant we were outside shots at a championship in his tenure. But that doesn’t mean he was a failed coach. He wasn’t.

]]> By: brgulker http://www.pistonpowered.com/2011/07/is-joe-dumars-the-20th-best-gm-in-the-league/comment-page-1/#comment-33904 brgulker Wed, 03 Aug 2011 16:12:27 +0000 http://www.pistonpowered.com/?p=7136#comment-33904 My lord, khandor, did you even read what you quoted? <strong> Remember how he shut down Tracy McGrady?  Remember how he virtually ended Reggie Miller’s career alone?  </strong>AFTER 2005! My lord, khandor, did you even read what you quoted?

Remember how he shut down Tracy McGrady?  Remember how he virtually ended Reggie Miller’s career alone? 

AFTER 2005!

]]> By: brgulker http://www.pistonpowered.com/2011/07/is-joe-dumars-the-20th-best-gm-in-the-league/comment-page-1/#comment-33903 brgulker Wed, 03 Aug 2011 16:07:45 +0000 http://www.pistonpowered.com/?p=7136#comment-33903 Translation: In spite of all of the factual history and evidence we have about players like Richard Hamilton and Ben Gordon, I continue to assert that they are, in fact, good players who are worth their pay. Translation:

In spite of all of the factual history and evidence we have about players like Richard Hamilton and Ben Gordon, I continue to assert that they are, in fact, good players who are worth their pay.

]]> By: brgulker http://www.pistonpowered.com/2011/07/is-joe-dumars-the-20th-best-gm-in-the-league/comment-page-1/#comment-33901 brgulker Wed, 03 Aug 2011 16:00:20 +0000 http://www.pistonpowered.com/?p=7136#comment-33901 "OMFG, what?  No one could have imagined the production he ultimately got out of Wallace/Billups?  With emphasis on the Billups signing, those weren’t gambles at all, they were smart bets on players who had clearly established the expected first year production that Dumars bought." I think you're giving Dumars too much credit, actually. I think Billups and Wallace appear to be very solid bets on players who looked good based on objective data.  I 100% agree with you there. But I don't think Dumars used any of that objective data to make the decisions he made about them, and I'm saying that because of what he did with Gordon/Villa. I think Joe eyeballs players, and he's got enough basketball sense that sometimes his eyeballs tell him that a player is good, and that player is actually good. But I think sometimes his eyeballs tell him a player is good, and those players are fool's gold. I also think that what Joe has said publicly (through KL) about statistical analysis vs. eyeballs confirms my hunches here. In short, I think you're reading your correct analysis of CB and Big Ben into Dumars' analysis of those players, when he really didn't do any of that and just got incredibly lucky. And for all the reasons you've already said, plus what I think about the way Dumars evaluates players,  I think he's among the worst in the league. “OMFG, what?  No one could have imagined the production he ultimately got out of Wallace/Billups?  With emphasis on the Billups signing, those weren’t gambles at all, they were smart bets on players who had clearly established the expected first year production that Dumars bought.”

I think you’re giving Dumars too much credit, actually. I think Billups and Wallace appear to be very solid bets on players who looked good based on objective data.  I 100% agree with you there.

But I don’t think Dumars used any of that objective data to make the decisions he made about them, and I’m saying that because of what he did with Gordon/Villa.

I think Joe eyeballs players, and he’s got enough basketball sense that sometimes his eyeballs tell him that a player is good, and that player is actually good. But I think sometimes his eyeballs tell him a player is good, and those players are fool’s gold.

I also think that what Joe has said publicly (through KL) about statistical analysis vs. eyeballs confirms my hunches here.

In short, I think you’re reading your correct analysis of CB and Big Ben into Dumars’ analysis of those players, when he really didn’t do any of that and just got incredibly lucky.

And for all the reasons you’ve already said, plus what I think about the way Dumars evaluates players,  I think he’s among the worst in the league.

]]> By: Mike Payne http://www.pistonpowered.com/2011/07/is-joe-dumars-the-20th-best-gm-in-the-league/comment-page-1/#comment-33845 Mike Payne Tue, 02 Aug 2011 01:31:52 +0000 http://www.pistonpowered.com/?p=7136#comment-33845 Huggin' it out, MFGE. Huggin’ it out, MFGE.

]]> By: Garrett http://www.pistonpowered.com/2011/07/is-joe-dumars-the-20th-best-gm-in-the-league/comment-page-1/#comment-33842 Garrett Tue, 02 Aug 2011 00:35:50 +0000 http://www.pistonpowered.com/?p=7136#comment-33842 Hug it out, brosephs? Hug it out, brosephs?

]]> By: Laser http://www.pistonpowered.com/2011/07/is-joe-dumars-the-20th-best-gm-in-the-league/comment-page-1/#comment-33833 Laser Mon, 01 Aug 2011 18:01:05 +0000 http://www.pistonpowered.com/?p=7136#comment-33833 no heated debate necessary. we know where each other stands on the issue. but when golden state announced that they had taken Ekpe Udoh, i literally leaped off my couch and screamed with excitement. (i remember it vividly it was very possibly the last time i was excited about anything having to do with this team.) and i didn't react that way because i thought dumars had an exciting choice to make between davis and monroe; i reacted that way because it was an <strong>absolute certainty</strong> that we got monroe.   I don't shit on joe for drafting darko, and i don't give him a shred of credit for drafting monroe or knight. and in both cases it's because i think 29 other GMs in his chair do the exact same thing. i just can't assign credit or blame when that's the case. i think that's an entirely fair way to look at things.   after our pick, five more teams passed on davis. show me a GM who would have taken davis over monroe and i'll show you a GM whose name should be lower than joe's in the GM rankings.   i don't rag on him for Darko, because i think basically 29 other GMs take him at no heated debate necessary. we know where each other stands on the issue. but when golden state announced that they had taken Ekpe Udoh, i literally leaped off my couch and screamed with excitement. (i remember it vividly it was very possibly the last time i was excited about anything having to do with this team.) and i didn’t react that way because i thought dumars had an exciting choice to make between davis and monroe; i reacted that way because it was an absolute certainty that we got monroe.
 
I don’t shit on joe for drafting darko, and i don’t give him a shred of credit for drafting monroe or knight. and in both cases it’s because i think 29 other GMs in his chair do the exact same thing. i just can’t assign credit or blame when that’s the case. i think that’s an entirely fair way to look at things.
 
after our pick, five more teams passed on davis. show me a GM who would have taken davis over monroe and i’ll show you a GM whose name should be lower than joe’s in the GM rankings.
 
i don’t rag on him for Darko, because i think basically 29 other GMs take him at

]]> By: Jon L. http://www.pistonpowered.com/2011/07/is-joe-dumars-the-20th-best-gm-in-the-league/comment-page-1/#comment-33831 Jon L. Mon, 01 Aug 2011 17:52:16 +0000 http://www.pistonpowered.com/?p=7136#comment-33831 This is a bit too high of a ranking for my liking. This is a bit too high of a ranking for my liking.

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