Jun 28, 2011 • 10:14 amby RandomGuy313
IMO going into the draft we needed to address the following in terms of need, given that this team will struggle next year regardless:
**needed a PG of the future that can start day 1
**Slashing 3 to offer diversity to that position given the departure of TP and the spot shooters like ADaye
I was set on them drafting Kemba Walker at 8, we have an idea of what he was at school and I am still of the opinion that he will be a Jameer Nelson clone. The fact that Brandon Knight fell astounded me and I am glad that JoeD pulled the trigger.
I was hoping Jimmy Butler would fall to us in the 2nd round and I would have selected Tyler Honeycutt at that pick instead of Singler; but I can understand where JoeD was going with this pick.
I can understand the argument for drafting potential, like Tyler, in the 2nd round, but I think there is merit in Singler. I do not agree with some of the comments that Singler will be a stretch 3 because his 3 percentage and inconsistent shooting do not speak to it. I do think that he possesses a good midrange game and a couple of dribbles will get him there. His minutes will be limited next year, but I think those minutes will be effective ones.
Macklin will get you six fouls and a big body to spell Big Ben or Monroe. We still need another big in the rotation to get 20 minutes and for this year I think resigning Wilcox for a year would provide someone that can finish at the rim.
Next years class of forwards is a lot more alluring than this year so given the fact that we are not going to be very good we will be in a better position to grab a better prospect at PF or C than this year.
I give JoeD an A for not reaching and identifying players in the second round that can fill a limited role. I think Charlotte and Cleveland should get an A for saving us the prospect of reaching on a big.
Jun 28, 2011 • 11:28 amby Laser
i’m confused by the “charlotte and cleveland saved us the prospect of reaching on a big” bit. i think cleveland reached quite a bit for thompson, and charlotte stepped in front of us for biyombo, so you’re saying those two (both likely pistons targets) would have been the reaches we would have made? i don’t think either is a particularly big reach at 8, and probably even less so considering that they both went earlier than that.
personally, i don’t think the draft could have realistically gone any better for us. we got a top prospect at a position of DIRE need who has a chance to be the best player in the draft when all is said and done. we didn’t have to take any major chances with unknown quantities, and joe got to avoid parallels to another darko situation. it was perfect. i just happen to think the jazz are the team to thank for things shaking out the way they did.
but if we’d come out of the draft with thompson or biyombo, i think it would have been a fine draft. but the team is much better off for having knight, in my opinion.
Jun 28, 2011 • 12:15 pmby RandomGuy313
@Laser: Just a matter of opinion. I do not like Tristan or Biyombo because I feel they are too one dimensional. Tristan showed a propensity to get to the free throw line consistently but only shot 49% from it. Biyombo’s hands will allow him to block shots but he will struggle with turnovers and mishandling the ball.
I would not have been happy with either of those players. If they dropped down to the rockets pick and got Markieff I would have been satisfied, but other than and Enes Kanter it would have been a reach IMO.
Jun 28, 2011 • 12:54 pmby Laser
i was just curious. i don’t necessarily disagree, though i think thompson would develop into a multi-dimensional player. i stated earlier that i wouldn’t have been wild about biyombo due to his one-dimensionality. virtually everyone on the pistons’ roster is defined by their flaws*, and he would probably be yet another one. i think the draft went perfectly. this backcourt wasn’t going to get us anywhere without a point guard, and there will be better, more complete players available next year.
for the record, i wouldn’t have minded dropping down either. but i’m very happy with knight.
(*this concept of players being defined by their weaknesses dawned on me maybe a week ago. it’s pathetic. almost every piston has a knock on him that outweighs his strengths, and deservedly so. it’s pathetic and sad and true.)
Jun 28, 2011 • 11:21 amby Laser
i’m starting to get a little uncomfortable with the whole grading thing. here’s how i see it:
brandon knight is the big one, and it’s basically ungradable, if grading is a sort of “pat on the back” to joe dumars. knight shouldn’t have fallen to 8, we had a need, nobody on the board was a better prospect… it’s a classic no-brainer. i gave it an A+ simply because it was such an obvious choice and a stroke of luck that none of the other available options were appropriate. he was the only choice. nobody would trade up now that all the juiciest bigs were off the board, and there’s no way any of the remaining big men were worth that much of a reach.
singler is probably the only pick that could be properly graded. if it were me, i might have gone with tyler honeycutt simply because i’ve heard such great things about him. i never really saw the guy play, but that might have been a smart pick for a project big man. then again, i feel confident that singler can come in and fill some of the void at small forward from day one. he’s accomplished more in college than most of the pistons have in the pros, and i wouldn’t be at all surprised if he’s a team leader from day one and an inexpensive SF option for us for the next decade. also, he’ll scare opponents into missing some shots, i’m sure of it!
and macklin is another tough one to grade. how many of us are overly familiar with him? not me. then again, it’s the 52nd pick. after macklin went, i think maybe one team took a guy they’re actually going to bring to training camp. so it was a gimme. he’s got some age and experience, and the pistons insist he was able to hang against top prospects. what more could you want from the bottom of the draft barrel? the fact is, no matter who the pistons added up front with any of their picks, they’d still try to address the frontcourt in free agency or trades, and they’d likely look to draft a better big man next year.
Jun 28, 2011 • 11:22 amby RandomGuy313
Question: Brandan Wright might not tendered by the Nets. Given Arnie Kander’s rehabilitation abilities do you jump on signing him?
Jun 28, 2011 • 12:08 pmby neutes
Jun 28, 2011 • 12:18 pmby RandomGuy313
BW has only played 77 minutes in 3 seasons, due to various injuries. I would not mind taking a flier on him. This was discussed previously how McDyess was able to turnaround his career due in part to Kander’s abilities.
Jun 28, 2011 • 12:28 pmby neutes
The issue is we have no money. Unless he takes the minimum or the cap goes up significantly that is. If we bring back Stuckey and Jerebko and Macklin makes the team we have 12 players signed through 2013. Adding Wright would make it 13. We have 3 draft picks next season, and again, no cap space. We’re walking a tight rope with both the cap and the roster size for the next two seasons.
Jun 28, 2011 • 1:26 pmby RandomGuy313
Fair enough. we still have to see what this…er…lockout thing will bring to a CBA structure. All points are it being less than 58 mil cap we had this year.
We also need to see if Stuckey accepts the qualifying offer. I can’t see JJ receiving more than 1.5 to 2 mil given he is coming off an achilles injury.
If there is a mid level exception (currently 5.75 mil) I would not mind parting with no more than half of it to pick him up
Jun 28, 2011 • 11:51 amby Robbie
Randomguy313 that’s a good question I think I would and we could probably get him pretty cheap.. So I would and give Kander the keys and let him drive Wright….
Jun 28, 2011 • 12:05 pmby neutes
Knight is a good pick and all, but it’s difficult to say he’s going to help this team either now or down the road as much as say Leonard or Markeiff Morris would have. It was a value pick in terms of talent, but not necessarily need because it’s difficult to say based on Knight’s season that he’ll ever amount to much more than Stuckey would as a PG. He has potential that he’s yet to show, if that makes any sense.
Singler and Macklin were 2nd round picks, and both will probably be fringe role players so it’s not worth complaining about. It would have been nice to get a player with untapped potential in the 2nd just for the heck of it, but solid hard working guys are good too
Jun 28, 2011 • 12:58 pmby Laser
by ALL accounts, knight is a better shooter and decision maker at age 19 than stuckey is right now. so that helps. he’s turnover prone, but at least he’s passing the damn ball. he can learn to be more efficient. it would be almost impossible for him to represent anything but an immediate upgrade over stuckey at the point, and we can all agree he’s got a high ceiling.
Jun 28, 2011 • 1:32 pmby neutes
I’m not disagreeing with his ceiling, but his turnover issue was bad. What’s bad isn’t that he was making bad passes as much as he doesn’t handle the ball well. Most of his turnovers are when he loses control of the ball, or gets trapped, and then forces bad passes. I’d be hard pressed to call him a good passer, or better than Stuckey, as you say.
His PPR (pure passer rating) was -1.1 in college. The nba average is 1.2, and that’s not for PG’s, that’s for everyone. Stuckey’s PPR coming out of college was 0.79 and last year it was 3.81. So Stuckey has improved. I saw on some review about Knight that only 2 players with negative PPR’s in college ever lasted more than 5 years as staring PG’s in the NBA. One of them was Marc Jackson and I can’t remember the other. Again though, Knight was a freshmen. Rose had a 1.52 PPR and Wall a 0.78 PPR their freshmen seasons. Evans, the other Calipari guard, had a -3.6 PPR, and he’s not a PG in the NBA.
Knight’s TS% was 55% last season compared to 54% for Stuckey. So while we’re getting a better shooter at the PG position, he’s not necessarily going to be a more efficient scorer. And the transition to the longer 3-point line in the NBA doesn’t bode well for Knight keeping up his TS% his rookie season.
Basically Knight is a project is what I’m trying to say. He has potential. But if anyone thinks he’s the saviour or already pegging him in as the future PG for years to come they need to slow down.
Jun 29, 2011 • 12:01 amby Laser
note that i never said he was a better passer than stuckey– just a better decision maker. there’s a difference. i think the kid can improve his handles by a lot and develop into a good point guard. at this point in his career, four years in, anybody who sincerely thinks stuckey still has the potential to run an NBA offense are Joe Dumars, Rodney Stuckey, and the criminally insane.
kid’s a project for sure, but i’d feel comfortable starting him at the point from day one and letting him learn on the job. he’ll be far from perfect, he’ll make a lot of mistakes, but he’ll instantly be a better option than stuckey.
Jun 28, 2011 • 2:06 pmby RandomGuy313
@neutes: I make no claims for BK to be a savior. I do think day 1 he is the best option at PG for the Pistons and can be a solid contributor for years to come. Yes, his stats are average looking at the whole season, but there are very encouraging signs that point to progress:
**Kentucky rolled with 6 players for the season (http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/team/stats/_/id/96/kentucky-wildcats), which increases the burden on BK to handle the ball more. Despite that added pressure he improved on his assists and turnovers from 3.7 to 4.6 and 3.3 to 3.0 if you halve his season (38 games).
I also like BKs thought process on what he needs to work on; specifically his left and the pick and roll game (http://www.lex18.com/news/brandon-knight-remains-very-confident). The latter is especially needed, he has the ability to shoot of the pick which should draw coverage and allow players like CV, JJ and ADaye to get easy buckets.
Jun 28, 2011 • 2:21 pmby neutes
All the clips I’ve watched it seems like he needs to get better going right. He comes off of screens for spot-ups going left. He dribbles better off the pick and roll going left. He could always improve, but here’s a little clip from when the Jazz fans thought they were going to draft him and this guy put together a video of his strengths and weaknesses. It’s pretty good. He’s very good defending and running through screens off the ball. He’s better at getting open off the ball. He seems like he has the skill set for a 2-guard in this video, but he needs to become a PG for us.
Jun 28, 2011 • 3:15 pmby RandomGuy313
@neutes: interesting vid..let me have a crack at this
“He’s very good…and…seems like he has the skill set…to become a PG for us” – neutes
Works for me LOL ;-)
All kidding aside, I am not deluding myself to think that BK will be the greatest PG in the league, my hopes are that he is considered above average in the league and can contribute solid minutes. Initially his value will be in his jumper and I hope that he progresses from there.
I understand I put quite a few hopes in there, but what can you do until you see him on the court.
Jun 28, 2011 • 12:22 pmby Tre
Some contributing pieces for Rip [Rip && Stuckey for Milsap or Al]
Or whoever we spilt ways with (I really don’t think we should get rid of Gordon , he’s a Young Sharp Shooter . . . Bringing him off the bench to contribute could be brilliant)
Knight, Monroe, Top 5 Pick in next years draft (Of course if we don’t trade the pick or unfortunately move back some spaces-were definitely going to be one of the Top 3 / 5 at the Veerrryyy Most ; worse teams in the league), Well ‘Definitely’ be contenders assuming Knight gets their within a year ! Obviously I’m not, But if I were Dumars I’d be reapply going for a BIG with potential to compliment Monroe (J. Smoove , Milsap, Al, Oden. . . Even Yao) So instead of taking a Big next year, we can get a proven one , or one with a lot of potential from a Trade involving a few of the pieces we currently have. On top of that, we could pick up a 2 or 3 in the next year’s draft (Sullinger , Rivers , Harrison Etc) !
And within a year have a starting line up of
PG- Knight / Bynum [Stuckey if we keep him]
SG – TOP SG prospect in next years draft / Gordon
SF- Jonas / Daye / Charlie
PF- Josh Smith or Milsap [Monroe if we get a Center] / Maxell / Wallace
C. Monroe [If we get a PF], Al or Yao / Wallace
Jun 28, 2011 • 1:03 pmby Laser
ugh. dream on, fella.
how do you suppose we flip rip for a big man like smith or milsap or jefferson? slip someone the date rape drug and try to make a deal? those young big men are ASSETS. rip is a LIABILITY. if that trade could even be pulled off AT ALL, we’re certainly going to have to sweeten it with our first rounder, so your “top G prospect” is out the window.
no idea why anyone in his right mind, in a fantasy scenario, would want gordon to stick around at that price. and you’ve left us with the smallest backcourt tandem imaginable coming off the bench. i’d trade gordon just to be rid of him and replace him with some size.
Jun 28, 2011 • 1:43 pmby Tre
@ Laser – Yea ok part of that scenario was more Of me dreaming than reality !
There’s NO WAY we can get J. Smoove without at least giving up Monroe . As far as Milsap && Al , that’s not so far fetched ! Utah’s situation with BIG’s is Exactly like our situation with Guards ! They’re Definitely going to be looking to trade a Big , like were definitely going to be looking to trade a Guard !!!
Rip and Stuckey for Al or Milsap ‘Could’ possibly go down .
Rip can provide veteran experience && Solid production , while mentoring a young Alec Burks [Not to mention he have a Valuable contract that'll be expiring Soon / Unlike Gordons]. Stuckey can bring in strong fire power off the bench, while adding young talent to a team going through the rebuilding stage ! Jazz will probaly get more desirable offers, BUT If that trade were to go down , BOTH parties would be making Good progress !
As for Gordon , I can’t think of ONE team that would also want him . . . at his price, So were stuck with him POINT / BLANK [Unless a Boozer / Gordon + Jerebko gets done] there’s NO other team I can see us trading him to . . . AND getting a quality piece that can benefit the team in return !!
As far as the Backcourt . . . Mavs have J. Terry && J.J coming off the Bench ?
Bynum can penetrate Nicely !! [JJ] && Gordon can score By shooting or making his own [J. Terry] ! Why should having a small Backcourt be an Issue ?
Jun 29, 2011 • 12:31 amby Laser
1) sure, utah has to trade one of their big men. but their big men have value. every one of them has value. some of them have downright tremendous value. the guards we’d like to move, rip and BG, are liabilities. you’d have to pay someone to take them off our hands. this is why you don’t sign average NBA shooting guards to rich, multi-year contracts. this is also why it’s smart to stockpile bigs at basically any price, where you’d have to be a psychopath to sign two non-All-Star shooting guards to eight-figure multi-year contracts. bottom line: we’re sunk. there are 28 teams in the league who can offer utah a more tempting package than we can.
2) the size of our backcourt would be a tremendous problem. (A) like it or not, will bynum and ben gordon are no jason terry and jj barea. not even that close, really. and (B) those guys back up a pretty big starting backcourt. deshawn stevenson is big and strong. jason kidd has great size for a PG and can easily defend opposing SGs. so dallas has the luxury of mixing and matching their combinations and being selective about when they play terry and jj together. if the pistons trade rip, they will be left with a backcourt consisting size-wise of one shooting guard (stuckey), two point guards (knight and BG), one undersized point guard (bynum). i suppose you could slide daye in as a fifth guard when you like the match-up, but we’re thin at SF as it is, and knight/stuckey/gordon are all going to warrant/demand starters’ minutes, so the logjam is going to be as bad as it ever was, and the team’s going to suffer. bynum and gordon, unlike terry and barea, just aren’t good enough to compensate for their lack of size, AND we can’t compensate by rotating them with two bigger guards unless we keep or replace rip. we don’t have to guess at it either. we’ve got two seasons of evidence to prove this. if i haven’t made my point, there’s no way you’ll ever get it. but you seem like a nice guy, so hopefully you do. also, gordon is the worst contract on our books by a wide margin.
you seem to be looking at this team through rose-colored glasses. you were probably surprised and disappointed by the team’s performance last year, and you’re setting yourself up for more disappointment. we’re not going to be able to make a truly beneficial trade here (unless we can find a good taker for tayshaun and pull off a lucky sign-and-trade). we have very VERY few trade chips; all of the players who are truly expendable are attached to horrendous contracts, and we can’t really afford to part with any of the players other teams might covet. stuckey might be the only guy who has value and is basically expendable, but i don’t think dumars is going to let him go. dumars would marry stuckey if it were legal in michigan. he said so in a press conference once.
maybe there’s a ghost of a chance that we could package rip and stuckey for whomever the utah jazz care about the least, but i still think any team in the league can beat that offer, and we’d be left with a guard core consisting of three undersized dudes and plenty of work to do.
you’d be better off if you had more realistic expectations about this team’s options, because none of them are particularly good right now. and not because karen davidson tied joe’s hands. joe tied his own hands by giving our four most expendable players (rip, gordon, charlie, max) our four worst contracts. nobody wants these guys, period. we’re not going to be able to trade any of them easily, and certainly not for anything that’s going to make the team better.
you’d also be better off if you got off the “rip’s gotta go” bandwagon. gordon is a much bigger problem on this roster with that contract. much, much bigger problem.
Jun 28, 2011 • 1:55 pmby Tre
BTW throwing in a 2013 first round pick wouldn’t be a Bad idea , Getting Al or Milsap (Preferably Milsap) to pair with Monroe , Knight && a 2012 First pick ‘Could’ Very well be able to definitly get us to the playoffs in the East : Therefor keeping us out of the lottery anyways , and trading a Non- Lottery pick involving Milsap or Al isn’t Bad AT ALL ! (ONLY ‘Assuming’ all goes well as far asplayers staying healthy, Good development and Good coaching . . .)
If the Jazz would only settle for a 2012 1st rounder than the deal becomes definitely less attractive for us !
Jun 29, 2011 • 12:42 amby Laser
throwing in draft picks is probably the only way we’re ever going to unload these bad contracts, but draft picks are our most valuable commodity right now. i wouldn’t trade a draft pick right now if my life depended on it, unless i was getting a sure-fire All-Star in return. period. until this team starts winning games consistently (i’m thinking in 2 or 3 years, in an absolute best-case scenario), we should hold onto our draft picks for dear life. we’re living in the lottery until further notice.
and “getting to the playoffs” should not be a goal for anyone outside the organization if all you’re going to do is get swept out in the first round. tom gores wants to get into the playoffs because it means he gets to sell playoff tickets. dumars and the team want to get into the playoffs so they’re not so damned embarrassed to be associated with this franchise. fans should not be remotely interested in the playoffs until the team has at least SOME chance of making noise once they get there. at a minimum, they need to be a team that other teams want to avoid in the first round. and, like i said, we’re probably 2-3 years from that in a perfect world. this team is nothing but holes. we have no use for a veteran big man to come in and give us some post scoring and get us into the playoffs in the short term before leaving in free agency. we’re better off building through the draft, because then we’ll end up with players peaking when they can actually do some good.
better to be in the lottery and get a real chance at significant, prolonged improvement than to miss the lottery just so we can get embarrassed by a top seed and barely justify trading a future pick on the basis that we’re just barely out of the lottery. we need a formula for sustained success around here, not a quick fix trip to the playoffs. and with the roster being the mess that it is, that means we need to stay in the lottery for a while.
Jun 29, 2011 • 2:29 amby RussellC
I don’t think the new owner is the patient kind that will tolerate announced attendance of 13 to 14k when just a few years ago the Pistons lead the league in attendance. People will come out to see a team that competes and cares and has a chance to win. Look at OKC and the other up and comers they went out in the first round last year and this year the conference finals. Look at Memphis. No need to keep tanking seasons in order to get lottery picks start trading some of these guys and pick up some additional picks.
Jun 29, 2011 • 2:33 amby oats
There is value in making the playoffs with a core of young players that aren’t ready to contend. Making it there to get Monroe, Knight, and maybe Daye or Jerebko accustomed to the playoffs is actually a fine goal. Plus, Detroit is not exactly a target destination for pretty much anyone. The only way it could be some place guys would actually want to go is if the team is good. Again, young playoff team fits the bill.
I do know what you are talking about though. You are talking about the treadmill, or the wheel, or any of a number of other names for the phenomenon. Essentially the theory states that the best way to get talent is to draft players high in the draft. By being good enough to make the playoffs, you don’t get those players. Instead you keep adding middling players through free agency and mid round draft picks that keep you in the playoffs without improving. As a result, the team gets stuck in a rut and can’t get out without making the team worse to get another high draft pick to start again. Essentially, think the Hawks. The problem with this line of thinking of simple. By intentionally staying bad, you institute a culture of losing.
Personally I think trying to make the playoffs is a fine goal, that way guys like Monroe feel like they are getting something from all the hard work they are putting in. The last thing you want is the team to decide it is pointless and become a bunch of quitters that walk out on their coach… Oh, wait, that was us. Never mind. Ok, now that I got that joke in, I do agree we are a young piece or two away from trying to make a run at the playoffs. I do actually think there is danger in allowing the team to stay bad though. I’ll sign off on another bad year if our young guys show signs of development and we land a decent prospect in the draft, but then it’s time to pull the team out of the basement and see what we have.
Jun 28, 2011 • 2:09 pmby Tre
@ Neutus – Dude , THANK YOU ! I don’t have that much stats on Knight but just by his Game / Position / && Skill it’s safe to say he’s ‘Only’ a prospect ! At #8 we didn’t get a SURE UPGRADE [That would of deserved a A grade. Rating]. We ‘Only’ get the best ‘Prospect’ . . . Which is still a ‘Prospect’. Which can very well be a player that absolutely can’t help our team in becoming contenders ! At the ‘College’ level Knight had a worse PPR than Stuckey in the NBA level ! How is that being a ‘BIG’ upgrade to the PG position like everyone says ?
NOTHING separates Knight from the other Bigs that were left on our board besides ‘Potential’ . . . Which is All a prospect has , ‘Potential’ If Knight doesn’t reach it , I believe he’ll still be Valuable [Like Stuckey who can't run the point / Or Shoot can't shoot as good as an average SG, but still MANY teams could use him] , And if Knight does reach his potential and improve his game largely , He’ll definitely be a ‘Great’ piece in the future ! Good Luck to BK , I have strong belief that he’ll excel but thyself just something we have to see ! Draft Grade B at the least , B* At the VERY best , Just. prospect not a sure thing to help improve our team !
Jun 29, 2011 • 12:47 amby Laser
my friend, if we reached for one of the bigs left on the board at #8 (one of the morris twins, i presume), we’d just be going into next year’s draft looking for an upgrade. do you honestly think either of those guys is an actual answer up front? does either one figure to be significantly better than jonas jerebko? with jerebko our likely starter and charlie v on the books, we don’t really have room for another power forward. we’re downright STACKED with flawed power forwards, and i don’t think anyone left on the board represents a significant improvement.
as it is, we certainly drafted a POTENTIAL answer at PG. and we needed a PG badly. i don’t think you could say the same thing about either of the morris kids. next year there will be better big man options.
Jun 28, 2011 • 10:38 pmby RussellC
This team as currently constructed has some talent. Enough talent to get into the playoffs in the East. Especially if they get a coach that knows what he’s doing. Its still a flawed team but Stuckey, Knight and whichever one of Rip or BG they keep is pretty potent backcourt. Bring back Prince and trade Daye and Charlie V for a big thats not scared of the lane. Take a chance on Oden. I really wish they made a move to get Singleton.
Jun 29, 2011 • 12:53 amby Laser
1) every team in the east, almost without exception, has “enough talent” to get into the playoffs in the east. because getting into the playoffs in the east is not an accomplishment. if all you do is make the playoffs in the east and serve as some top seeded team’s appetizer, the only thing you’ve “accomplished” is not missing the playoffs in the east, which is an embarrassment unlike any other. but better to be embarrassed for a few years and actually build a team that can compete and be taken seriously than to squeak into the playoffs just to say you did.
2) if joe can find a team who will take daye and charlie v off our hands in exchange for a low post threat, i’ll offer myself to him sexually. and i’ll put that in writing. because joe can’t do it.
Jun 28, 2011 • 10:49 pmby Wes
Good to see most folks disagree with the nonsense these guys have been spouting about this draft. Brandon Knight will be a star, I believe.
Jun 29, 2011 • 2:32 amby RussellC
They should at least be fun to watch again. I’m out here in Phoenix and I refuse to become a Suns fan
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